Speaker 1Hello and welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. I hope you're all doing awesome. I'm going to start this episode by begging you guys for a quick favor. Now, I don't know where you listen to the podcast, whether it's on Spotify or Apple or YouTube or, you know, CastBox or wherever you get it from. If you could give me a rating on there, that would be cool because then that nudges it up the recommendations then. So the platform pushes it out for other people to check out as a suggestion, you know, like, hey, what about this? So if you could give me a star rating and if you'd be so kind and even a review if you want to, that would be awesome because then the platform will give me a little push out to some other listeners to check it out. Shouldn't take a minute out of your day. Come on. What else are you doing with your time? Now, today, I want to talk to you about free money. Who wants some free money? Seriously, free money is free, totally free. So let's imagine now, right, every month, check this out, every month, the government pays you into your bank account like a wage every month, no questions asked, enough money to cover all at the cost of your living. You know, your rent, your bills, your food, whatever it is that you need to survive in this country, the government just gives you, no questions asked, every month forever. Whether you're rich or poor, young or old, black or white, working, unemployed, disabled, abled, whatever, everybody gets the same amount. Every month to cover the basic cost of living, no questions asked, it's not means tested, you can't even give it back if you wanted to. It's just free money, man. Would you take it? Would you want to live in a country that did that? This should be the easiest idea in the world to sell to anybody, right? Free money. Now, in case you're wondering what the hell I'm talking about and why I'm talking about it, such an idea exists and it's called universal basic income. It's been around for a long, long time. It's been trialed all over the world and everywhere that it's been trialed, it's been shown to work. But I'm not going to get into all that because today's guest is the amazing Jonathan Rhys-Williams from UBI Lab in Wales, who's going to explain all of it. He's going to explain how it works, how it's financed, the social benefits, and more importantly, how the hell did we get our hands on this bad boy, man? UBI is an idea that I'm really, really interested in and fascinated by. So I'm really thankful for John for giving us his time today and explaining the lowdown on this thing. So without further ado. So without further ado, from UBI Lab in Wales, Mr. John Rhys-Williams, how are you, sir?
Speaker 2Yeah, good, James. Thanks very much for the invite. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1No, thank you for giving us your time, man. You're a busy dude and I appreciate it. You know, it's nice to have a fellow Welshman on the show as well, you know. I think you're the first one and we're actually about 20 minutes away from each other. So, you know, we could have done this in the pub, you know, it would have been much easier and more fun.
Speaker 2I know. As well, she's got to stick together, James.
Speaker 1Damn right we do. Right, let's get into it then. So UBI, universal basic income. I suppose we better start, like at the start, for complete newbies that don't know anything about this or what's going on. And for the detractors as well that think this is all nonsense. What's the basic overview? What's the starting point here to explain what is universal basic income and how does it work?
Speaker 2Yeah, so universal basic income is a fixed, regular income paid to everyone. Regardless of their income, wealth or employment status. So essentially, it's a direct cash transfer, if you will, that could be sent to everyone, even if you're a millionaire and it's got no strings attached. So you would get it, for example, every month in your bank account and it's yours to spend as you wish. So that's, I suppose, what it is. And it's been around for a really long time. So it's not a new idea. And I think, you know, it goes back all the way to. Ancient Greece, when it was first sort of mooted and then it had a bit of a renaissance then with. Oh, I always get these people mixed up. I think it's John or it's a book called Utopia, basically, that it's discussed in there. And I think that's like in the 1700s. And it's sort of discussed there as a bit of a renaissance. And it goes quiet for a bit. Then it comes back then sort of in the 60s and 70s as an idea. And it's actually. It comes back via sort of Milton Friedman and then Friedrich Hayek, which is sort of on the right. Well, they are. They're definitely on the right of politics. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they proposed the idea that although it wasn't a UBI, it was sort of a negative income tax, which is kind of the same thing. But it is a bit of difference there. And at the same time, Martin Luther King was actually a fan of it. And then sort of today. Then you've got sort of again, it's had another renaissance, if you will. And really, it's come to the fore in response to the pandemic. You know, people are seeing that, you know, our welfare system is broken and it really needs to be reformed. And people are starting to talk about this idea. And even the Pope said it's a good idea as well. So, you know, it's it crosses the political and religious spectrum, if you will. So it's an idea that is finally. And again, it's it's it's day in the it's day in the light, really, which fingers crossed it will it will result in it being finally rolled out after, you know, hundreds of years of people that are talking about it, really.
Speaker 1That's so interesting. It's got that historical and cross political, cross ideological backing as well. So essentially, then, from what you're saying is that just to sort of like put it in real sort of basic language, it's essentially free money that the government gives to every single person. In the country every month, kind of like a like a like a end of the month wages check or something of enough money to pay for all your cost of living every month. It's not means tested. Whoever you are, however much you earn, whether you're earning or not, whether you work or not, every single person in the country gets free money every month to cover all of your most basic needs for living. Is that is that essentially what it is?
Speaker 2Yeah, pretty much. And obviously, there's a lot of debate about how much it will be. So, you know, you've got. You've got advocates that are saying, well, pay people 60 something pounds a week. That was before we had this cost of living crisis and inflation went through the roof. Of course, people were probably proposing that. I'd imagine it's different. Some people are proposing. But, you know, there's other people then that are saying, well, give people 100 and something pounds a week. And then there's others that are saying that we should pay people 200 and something pounds a week. You know, so there's there's a difference of opinion about how much. But, yeah, general, like you said. But, you know, you summed it up perfectly well. It's money with no strings at the end of every month that goes into your bank account.
Speaker 1That sounds pretty damn awesome. That almost that almost sounds like a kind of pie in the sky idea. Like, hey, let's just give everybody free money. But I know already there are some people thinking, yeah, well, that sounds great. But where the hell is the money going to come from? You know, we can't fund the NHS as it is. You know, who's paying for this?
Speaker 2Yeah. And look, I remember. So I like I think I first. I stumbled across this idea like 10 years ago. And when I was reading about it, I tell my friends, you're mad, John. You really want to give everyone money for nothing. And now, you know, it's in the mainstream. It's gone from a crackpot idea, really, to, you know, politicians taking it really seriously and the Welsh government trialling a form of it. But I'm sure which I'm sure we'll probably get into later on. But in terms of how it's how it's funded, I think, you know, first and foremost, you need to think about the savings that this would. So, you know, every trial, for example, of a basic income, whether that's been in Finland or whether it's been in Stockton, California, has shown that this has significant improvements. And what it significantly improves rather your physical and mental well-being. Well, if you're if you're healthier, you're not going to the doctors, which means that it's saving the NHS a lot of money. And of course, if you're healthier and fitter, then you're more productive, which means that, you know, you're doing. Things that benefit the economy as well. You know, it's in terms of other ways in which it pays for itself. You look at educational attainment. So, you know, in trials across the world, you've seen that people stay in school for a lot longer. Well, of course, if you've got a more skilled workforce that contributes to the economy and another way that it would pay for itself, for example, is that when you give. So, you know, the vast majority of people that would receive this basic income. They're not going to save it. You know, people with a cost of living crisis at the moment. So people are going to spend this on the basics, you know, hence the name basic income, you know, and that money would go straight back into the economy because you're buying, you know, bread, milk, that kind of thing. You know, the government then are picking up those VAT receipts and that money that's going into the economy also, you know, grows the economy, which allows more jobs to be created, which has a knock on effect. And again, grows the economy because more people have got money to spend and all that kind of thing. And so it's multifaceted, the benefits of a UBI and how it would pay for itself. And just quickly, I suppose, you know, another way in which it would pay for itself is not just giving people money and they're spending it. But you've got people who can't necessarily set up businesses, for example, at the moment because they don't have that money to put, you know, to, I suppose, invest in it. They haven't got that initial capital to invest in a business. So what you will see and a great example. example was in america so where they had um stimulus checks in america for example and you know so the government give everyone as part of their covid response i think it was 1200 quid um as a one-off payment and in in this so the i think it was the new york times and the washington post done this investigation what they found was in in poor black communities there was a significant increase in people setting up small businesses now that's because you know you've got People in black communities, for example, are disadvantaged because of institutional racism. They don't have job opportunities like a white community might have. So they're having an opportunity they never would have had before by having this money given to them directly. And then using that as a capital investment to set up a business. Well, of course, if that business is successful, then that again generates jobs. It pumps money into the economy. So it pays for itself. It's an absolute no brainer as far as I'm concerned. But the worry is, I suppose, why some people don't like it is because it gives people so much autonomy. You know, people can make decisions for themselves. They no longer have this nanny state that is dictating to them, which essentially what happens with universal credit moment in this country. Because they say, right, you've got to be down the job center at X time because you need to meet with your job coach. We'll tell you how to get a job. Well, you know, that person no longer. I would have to do that, you know, which means that the government's got less control over you as well. So, yes, I'm rambling a bit now, James. No, mate, I've
Speaker 1got so many questions as you're talking. I'm thinking, Christ, there's so many elements to this. And the more I learn about this and the more I was listening to you speaking then, I can just imagine a future and a world that we live in whereby this would be completely like normal. And it would seem obvious that that's the way it should be. I mean, we're all citizens. We're all citizens of a country. We all pay into the public purse. So why shouldn't we all have a universal basic income? I mean, it's only a basic income. It's not saying that, hey, everyone's just going to, like, never have to work again or anything like that. But it's providing rather than a safety net to stop people falling through the poverty line. It's actually giving a floor for the guarantees that nobody's going to fall through it, you know. And I can imagine a future generation looking back when this is the norm thinking, what barbarians, you know. Didn't have this. You know, how the hell do people survive when there's people on the streets? You know, I think I can understand why to some people this seems completely mental. But I can also acknowledge that very quickly it would become completely normal. And it would seem like, how the hell did we ever do it any other way, you know.
Speaker 2And that's progress here, isn't it? You know, it's sort of, you know, we did that with the NHS. So when they first started talking about the NHS after, you know, the Second World War, everyone was like, this is nuts. You can't do it. You know, and then all of a sudden we've got this NHS, like, you know, 80 years worth of, not worth, 80 years time, you know, down the line. We're saying, you know, if you said to people, let's get rid of the NHS, there'd be people out on the streets, I imagine. You know, so it's, that's progress here. It's the same with any sort of progression, I suppose, is that, you know, until it actually happens. And then, you know, you have this thing, you know, 50 years in the future, you know, people are saying, you know, how did we ever, ever live without that? So it's, you know, it's, like you said, it's, it creates a flaw, creates, it prevents destitution. And I think the parallels with the NHS, you know, you can't escape that. I mean, I've coined the phrase, our generation's NHS, you know, because I think that the parallels between what happened after this country faced the last national crisis where, you know, we come out of World War II and we set up the NHS. We could come out to this national crisis now with COVID, you know, and people like to make the World War analogies with COVID as well, don't they? But we come out of COVID and we could set up this thing, which is again, universal, given to everyone and looks after them from cradle to grave. So I think that you can't escape those and fingers crossed, you know, we won't have to wait too much longer before it's implemented.
Speaker 1Yeah, because it has been, I mean, I read a book on this recently. I mean, I'm absolutely useless at containing in my mind, you know, dates and figures and stats and stuff like that. But I read a book. I read a book recently on this and it's been trialed in so many places around the world, including America and in Africa and in Europe as well. And everywhere, I mean, I'm echoing what you said earlier, everywhere, the economics of it actually worked out better with universal basic income than it did before with the welfare system and, you know, dog eat dog and each man to their own. The economy actually was better in all circumstances as a result of having this. So, I mean, that should please the right wingers as well, if such a thing is possible to do. But yeah. I know some of the.
Speaker 2Sorry, James, just going to jump in and say that, you know, this is what I think is incredible really is that, you know, you've got all these libertarians like, you know, we should have this individualistic view of life and, you know, we should give people autonomy to make their own decisions and, you know, a quality of opportunity and all the rest of it. And, and, and, and yet they're against this and you're like, what? You know, it's just crazy as far as I'm concerned, you know, but they're like, oh no, but, you me actually just that you know the one that we want yes yeah yeah yeah but then you bang on you know it it pays for itself as i mentioned and you know the administrative administrative costs of rolling out universal credit i think it's somewhere like seven billion pounds it costs the uk every year to administer benefits before even a single benefit is paid jesus which is just which is nuts money if you think about it you just think well you know that's a huge save in there but um yeah i mean other ways you could pay for it i don't know if you want to go with that now but i suppose you could you know taxation is is the obvious place that you would go as well you know sort of uh you cannot implement uh universal basic income without reform in the tax system and you know you talk about progressive taxation so you know people who are high income earners who are earning like hundreds of thousands of pounds well they'd pay a few percentage points more every year and which would which would raise a significant amount of money but you'd look at you know for me i think we tax wealth and land and and inheritance and all of those things really badly in this country you know the amount of money that you could raise for example by taxing people who i think have capital of more than 10 million pounds a year i think if you tax them a one-off tax of five percent don't quote me on this it was a london school economics report that i can't remember all the figures and on the specifics of it but it was something like it raised 250 billion pounds in one hit jesus and then there's report it's huge money and there's reports then for example that say that you could roll out a pretty basic basic income um of like 70 70 80 quid a week for 67 billion pounds a year well that that funds that for almost five years or four years or however many years that is and and then you take into consideration consideration that you tax inheritance as well as that you know but i mean the fact people inherit billions of pounds and they haven't lifted a finger in their life it's just crazy you know and and that they've amassed that fortune from you know people like you know buying land which is essentially you know everyone's common property anyway you know so it's um there's things like that you can look at and then of course there's there's carbon taxes which you definitely need to be thinking about you know the climate crisis around the corner well you know what a great way for example to to sort of look after the climate and uh fund the ubi by introducing carbon taxes and something i really think is really cool actually is that if we had sort of a green version of what happens in alaska so i don't know if you know what what they do in alaska james so there's a sovereign wealth fund out there and basically a lot of the profits that they they get from the oil that they're extracting in alaska they put into this sovereign wealth fund and then they pay it as a citizen's dividend to all of the residents of alaska but i think you know flip down its head if we started uh you know putting all this green infrastructure in place of tidal lagoons in wales you know wind farms and that kind of thing that were state-owned and then all of the profits that we derive from that put it into a sovereign wealth fund and then pay the profits from that to people as a citizen's dividend so it's like a green sovereign wealth fund you know that would be i think a really really cool idea and the money you know by the time you paid everyone in wales a citizen's dividend you probably got money left over in that sovereign wealth fund yeah totally which then you that you could use as you know education health you know infrastructure like you know fixing the bloody potholes up the road you know that's ruining my ruining my wheels you know but that no but you know there's there's there's loads of ways in which you could do it tax is the obvious place you know we don't tax wealth anywhere near enough i mean you know look at the covid pandemic now and all of the billionaires that are profiteering from it it's just it's sickening i think you know and the last last crisis that we faced a great recession you know in 2009 you know that the richest one percent increased their wealth substantially you know so every time there's a crisis you know we're all really poor and suffering and they make loads of money and it's like it's gotta stop man this is just gotta stop you know but
Speaker 1there's things like the um the tobing tax as well isn't it which is a very small tax on currency trading you know so basically you know the world's billionaires are just basically you know on the currency casino you know it just which which trashes economies around the world and if it was a very small tax on those transactions that would generate absolutely tons of money um there's also you know the um the tax havens you know i mean there's so much money sitting around that we could do good stuff
Speaker 2with there's trillions of pounds there's trillions of pounds in tax havens like literally trillions of pounds that that's just sitting there you know gaining interest doing nothing you know so it's just bonkers
Speaker 1and we're talking about giving you know the average person you know a few hundred pounds a month or something i mean you know that the money is clearly there the economics of this workout and then some i think is essentially uh what you're saying
Speaker 2oh but absolutely i mean you know the fact that there's so many tax loopholes for example that that people use that you know rich people can pay expensive accountants for example to siphon off money to these tax havens that are not available to them and so on and so forth and so on and so forth and so on and so on you know the working man you know it will pay for itself like you said and some it's bonkers that people even think that is a valid argument that it you know wouldn't pay for itself it absolutely would and it would be an investment in people yeah you know as well because they'd have the time to do things you know like artists you know obviously a musician yourself you know these days a lot of people who are um well i find anyway that that you have less and less working-class people who are working-class people who are working-class people who are you know there are actors and musicians all this because it's just simply i've got time to invest in their you know in their craft you know so but in the 60s and 70s we had all these great bands that people is my favorite band you know would we even if the welfare system that we have in place now was in place then would we even have the likes of the beatles you know because they wouldn't have had the time to invest in learning their craft and you know and that type of thing so yeah yeah i think that it could help as well our culture it would help with and so yeah
Speaker 1well i mean all the information that i've seen on this um and there's tons of information out there on my like you said this idea goes back hundreds and hundreds of years it's been trialed it's been shown to work there's tons of research and studies on this um everything suggests um and it's pretty unanimous i think across the board without exception every study and every trial uh suggests that when this is wherever this has been implemented the knock-on social effects and the ramifications for the broader society which affects everybody rich or poor and in the middle have been positive um it hasn't resulted in people just sitting around smoking weed all day and doing bugger all with their time it's actually the opposite it's provided seed money for people to to start their own businesses it's enabled people to raise their children better it's enabled people to have better mental health it's saved costs on the police having to deal with the homeless situation and crime and things like that there's literally like straight across the board the the results have been positive for everybody in society through this which which again is another incredible thing to have proven but it's just another reason why this is such a no-brainer if it works out economically sound and socially good for everybody then what the fuck we're waiting
Speaker 2for yeah i mean there literally is an abundance of material that suggests this is you know like you said an absolute no-brainer i mean people do not sit down and do absolutely nothing i mean in fact it's it's shown that um i think the finished trial for example showed that there was a marginal increase in labor activity i think the stock and trial in california um you know showed even better um employment and and labor activity and then the finished trial did you know it increased increases trust in government which you know we could do a bit of work um it it significantly improves physical and mental well-being you know financial anxiety a real thing you know and the stress that that causes then has a knock-on effect because you know it can lead to heart problem heart disease and and strokes and that type of thing as well so it you know it has a knock-on effect there in terms of your health you know there is this social cohesion effect because you remove the stigma people like well you know next to neighbors not a stranger he gets the same amount as me every yeah you know so there's that kind of thing as well there's so many people for example that are on um on benefits or could be on benefits that are not because they're too ashamed to to actually claim the benefits i mean we're talking thousands of people in the uk yeah and there's some people just don't even know they're eligible for it because it's such a complex system so you know it's it's like there's those benefits as well it just simplifies it for everyone and we're like yeah okay cool i know i get this 80 quid in my bank account every week you know no strings attached thanks boris you know and that's um although i don't for it's it but you get you get my drift yeah but um yeah like i said it's just a wealth of information that says it's a good idea but um i mean i suppose that the problem is that you'd end up having to tax the wealthy and the wealthy you know their life they don't like uh parting with any of their cash you know that's that's half the problem and half the problem they offer them only on the newspapers as well yes they tell you it's a bad
Speaker 1idea that brings me to the next question actually because i was already i mean the the people that are holding the bags of money at the moment aren't going to want to let go of it are they we're talking about some pretty um big moves there like opening up the tax havens and um you know putting a tax on um your energy like a climate tax and things like that and also getting the politicians who are part of that social class to agree to give the great unwashed some some crumbs you know i mean i we do we stand a chance in hell of this ever happening or is this a utopian uh ideal or it you know is there is there hope oh i hope there's
Speaker 2hope otherwise i've been wasting my time look i i think there is hope i think that the pandemic has certainly uh you know shown that we've been sticking a plaster over a lot of things and it's politicians that i think wouldn't have even countenanced this idea that are now coming to the fore i mean you know andy burnham um is is really pushing the idea the king of the north you know the mayor of manchester and it is really pushing the idea that you've got a lot of politicians that are that are now getting on board with this liberal democrats and you know it's it's part of their party policy now the green party of course being part of their party policy since day dot but um it's uh it's definitely uh it's coming along you know and like i said it's now in the mainstream the issue like you said is that and as i mentioned this there's people at the top um that are that are gonna you know the most fuss about this you know and and unfortunately like i said you know a lot of the people are told you know that the the strings to power you know they they newspaper proprietors as well they fund political parties and they're just not going to want this to happen because of course like i said you know it creates autonomy which means that you know they've got less control over the public as well so there are going to be some difficulties and like i said you know it's going to be you're going to have to tax them a bit more as well i said that you know quite a lot more um hopefully anyway um so it's uh it's going to be you know it's not going to you know we're not going to get this without a fight you know and um and and it's you know you're going to have to get people involved you know with my organization you know voluntary led you know and it's a range of people that are involved in it and and and that's how we do it you know it's it's about campaigning you know keeping on that politicians uh until they they do the right thing you know nothing you know for example i'm not trying to say it's the same thing but you know sort of uh when you look at the suffragettes and that type of thing or the civil rights movement you know all of these things are important that were hard fought you know and and it's um and and that's that's how you get progress you know there's people on the ground grassroots movements they're the ones that have to pressure politicians into making these decisions and and hopefully you know they're going to be able to do that and they they come around eventually
Speaker 1and there are quite a few campaigns for ubi in the uk i mean there are campaigns all over the world but i mean speaking specifically about where you know where we are um in the uk so you're part of a campaign group called ubi lab right and you've got um branches all over the country is that
Speaker 2right yes so it's you've got ubi lab network i mean it's voluntary leds you know it's uh it's it's a network of people across the uk that that really into you know getting this policy on on the political agenda and you've got ubi lab network which sort of acts as a hub and then you've got all sorts of branches then so i set up ubi lab wales we've got then you know underneath ubi lab wales for ubi cardiff gwynedd rct swansea you know so all these people and they're led by you know so i my day job is as a lawyer but you've got other lawyers doing it as well but you've got students leading different groups and you've got you've got you know people working uh politicians for example leading other groups um so it's just this amalgamation of people that are trying to push this policy and and then of course like i said you know you've got the network which was set up initially in sheffield um and the guys there um you know they've gone on to set up different groups as well you've got one in london and and all sorts of things and and they're all but and they're all progressed because it's voluntary led You know, everyone's progressing in a different pace. You do it as, and when you can, you know, we've all got jobs. you've got bills to pay you know so we do in our spare time and you know fortunately in wales we've managed to get um we're probably the furthest ahead because we've managed to get our government to agree to run a pilot yes and which um you know which is great news it's you know i've said this and i'll be careful what i say now because i'm on the technical advisory group but uh yeah yeah it's good you know but um you know it's it's not exactly what we wanted we would have liked it to be a bit more expansive but the welsh government i think have done what they can with the powers that they've got you know they've tried to get uk government buying which you know would mean dwp allowing them to run a more expansive pilot and because you know they could do things with people's benefits and taxes and that type of thing which would allow them to you know essentially sort of give people energy geographic location you know money every month um like i said no strings attached but because they because the dwp haven't bought into the idea for obvious reasons that you know you've got the conservatives running that uk government uh which are not fans of this policy at the moment um they uh you know they've done what they can and and they've basically um said that we'll do it with care leavers um and they've decided now that there's going to be 500 care leavers um that that essentially leave care and so everyone that turns 18 and leaves here they're going to um this year uh they'll essentially give them 1600 pounds a month wow no no no questions asked yeah i mean the sum is far exceeding my expectations and you've got to give serious credit to the welsh government for that um and and and you know hopefully now these these young adults will go on and you know they'll they'll perhaps go to university or they might set up their own business and so it's really exciting to see what will happen with this pilot and what data we'll get and um yeah hopefully you know that the benefits will will then just further the argument yeah as to why we need to roll this policy out on a uk basis and across wales for example
Speaker 1when's the trial happening
Speaker 2again uh so it's going to happen this year uh you know it's um i don't there's no specific date at the moment there's still a few things being worked out um but it will happen this year um is is the aim that's amazing and so um yeah it's you know it's going to run i think i think the pilot will run for three years and then you'll have evaluations after it and like i said it's going to be really interesting to see what these these young adults do you know and yeah i mean that the improvements across the board um you know for in all of these pilots across the world uh has been you know there's been a significant improvement in physical and and mental well-being so i imagine that will be one of the things that we see but yeah i think educational attainments you know people staying in school perhaps these people wouldn't have had an opportunity to go to university for whatever reason before so they might do that as well and so yeah it's it's it's really exciting well in the way and you know the the lab has certainly played a significant part in that in lobbying politicians and and getting them to agree to this policy and i've pestered way too many politicians about it and it's uh it's finally come off well that's a lot of pressure
Speaker 1now on these care leavers don't let us down guys because if you sit on your ass playing like call of duty all day you're ruining the whole
Speaker 2cause man james james will have to have a word
Speaker 1yeah if anybody if any of you guys are listening to the podcast guys come on you've got to help us out with this one we've got to get this over the line you know what i mean if you gave it to me when i was like a teenager or something i can't guarantee um you know what i would have done with them no
Speaker 2and this you know this i think a fair comment is and something that as you know people have raised is that you know hopefully they're going to be able to do it they're going to be able to do it hopefully there'll be some sort of financial uh advice or assistance uh for the people involved in the trial because if you know if you give me 1600 quid a month as an 18 year old i wouldn't know what to do with it yeah you know so um yeah hopefully that that will be they'll put some sort of uh assistance for them as well so that you know they've got people to turn to an advice which i'm sure it will happen you know uh it's certainly something that needs to uh needs to be considered
Speaker 1fascinating stuff i can't wait to see the results of that study i mean like a bit if anyone listening to this that wants to look further into this there is tons of information out there if you look up universal basic income and it is fascinating when you read the studies and the personal journeys of the people that have actually been involved in these trials and how it's changed their lives and that they didn't just sit around and they're asked doing nothing you know they actually did start their own projects or created art or got involved more in the community or volunteered more uh it's fascinating when you read about it because like literally at no point does anybody think oh cool i'll just you know i'll go and have a sandwich you know so it'd be really interesting to see if the results from you know where we're talking from now sunny south wales it'll be interesting to see if the results that happen here on our doorstep kind of mirror those experiences from other places other parts of the world yeah
Speaker 2and it's the i think you know that that's what's gonna that's what's really gonna be powerful about this trial and i think it was given directly that i've been doing like a 10-year trial in in in namibia um where you know they've been given just basically i think they're giving people money um and they're giving people money and they're giving people money and they're giving people money directly to the they give everyone like a mobile phone and they're transferring the money to the mobile phone um and essentially you know the stories that have come out to that where people have set up like you said businesses and i think like kids have gone to school because their parents can afford the clothes to send them to school and that's i would say you know all of these stories are super powerful and that's hopefully what will come up to this trial that we'll have all of these stories that people can share that people can resonate with and be like wow you know look at look at the difference that made to that person's life and why are we not doing this you know and then that's hopefully where you know it will get the demands for this to be implemented across the board will get louder and louder yeah
Speaker 1i think so man and it really matters really exciting stuff in it i mean is there anywhere in the world yet that actually has this as their official policy is there is there like a small country somewhere that actually functions with a universal basic income that we could look at um as an example so there's
Speaker 2no way that's got it so what about alaska have got as i mentioned earlier right so alaska's got a uh sovereign wealth fund which pays citizens dividend which is pretty much same thing um so they've been doing it that's been going since the 80s wow and they've had that yeah and all the results of that's really benefit you know positive and whoever gets elected as you know uh you know the senator or governor of alaska they wouldn't dream of removing it because of the uproar you know so um so that's been going on for a while i think uh um oh when barbados become uh i think you know they're not going to be part of the commonwealth anymore and as soon as they made that announcement um that within a couple of days they said we want to implement uh a basic income uh across the country so i think barbados is one to watch out for canada ones is a country that you know there's there's a lot of talk there's a bill going through their parliament at the moment uh which is trying to implement some sort of basic income i think there's been talk about it happening in india uh for example as well so there's a lot of places where it's it's it's being rooted um and i think yet the last i don't know if it's a presidential race um in south korea so the guy that uh so there's a presidential runoff the two contenders the one of the guys who didn't make it unfortunately he lost by literally like a percentage point i think but one of his one of his key pledges was to implement a basic income so had he won that one of his main policies would have been to roll out a basic income and obviously south korea's really advanced country uh as well so you know it would be uh that would have been fascinating to see how they've done that and with the technology they have as well it would be interesting to see how they would have done it as well whether it would have been some sort of card or or what you know um so um yeah unfortunately didn't get in which was uh was disappointing but uh perhaps he'll get on next time it
Speaker 1sounds to me then that this is an idea whose time is coming i mean it seems as if it's becoming more and more mainstream it's been around a long time but you know country after country now seem to be experimenting with this or having an open conversation and taking this idea very very seriously as their national policy um so it seems to me as if this is going to be something we're going to be hearing a lot more about so i'm really glad that we've had this chat and we've got this information out there for people that may not know about it already so they can put their weight behind this and start you know helping the movement to push us in that direction because i think it's it's a brilliant i think it's a brilliant idea man i think it's an idea whose time has come and it sounds as if it's an idea whose time is coming so what can people listening to this do now is the next step to get involved and put their weight behind this and to help amplify it i mean do they do they join their local ubi lab i mean is that how you guys work
Speaker 2definitely uh so you know a lot of the campaigning happens online through social media and it really took off during the pandemic we're all locked indoors so that's why it's sort of everyone's on twitter with this and in this face of facebook groups as well but yeah so you know you can either get in touch with your local lab so have a look if there is one if you go on ubi lab networks website and you know it's got a list of all the labs on there and you can get involved or you know you really want to do it you can set one up yourself um and you can get involved and you can and do it that way as well. But it's the usual things you can do with this. talk to people about it you know read up about it you know get your friends involved they tell your family members about it write to your politicians your mps your councillors like one of the things we did with um with wales lab and it's been done in the other uk labs as well is that we uh we got local councils to essentially say to pass a motion in the council chamber to say if there's ever an opportunity to run a pilot um you know we want to be considered for it and that great generates all this media attention there locally because people like oh wow you know this council want to run a ubi trial so that's something that we did uh as well so there's loads of things you can do and you know if you're an innovative person and you've got loads of cool campaign ideas i'd love to hear them we're always uh we're always looking for a new campaign to you know pester these politicians to finally implement this policy
Speaker 1where can people troll you on twitter then what's your twitter handle oh mine
Speaker 2is i i always get this wrong whenever anyone asks so i think i think it's it's at jr will 26 it is and that's my twitter uh person i'm usually you know usually ranting at the government or talking about ubi um and uh the labs is at ubi lab wales uh and then um there's also at ubi lab network as well um which is another one to follow so great three uh yeah give them a follow and uh and yeah that that's that you know and drop us a dm you know drop us a a dm on twitter and we've got an email address now if they want you want to email us and ask us how they can get involved it's uh ubi lab uh ubi lab wales at gmail.com uh happy to take an email of someone and point them in the right direction if they want to get involved as
Speaker 1well that's brilliant man i mean this is a lot of work as you said you know you guys are all volunteers you know you're a full-time lawyer so that's brilliant that you're devoting so much time as well to being so open to people getting in touch and answering their questions and and building this movement from the ground up i mean is this is this a full-time thing for you now or is this taking over your life or uh do you still get time to uh sleep and watch a bit of
Speaker 2telly uh well sleep uh it is a lack of that but i think that's got something to do with me having a two-year-old as well right oh
Speaker 1wow bloody hell your hands are
Speaker 2full yeah yeah juggling a few things to say the least but then no look it's it's like i said it's something that uh i've been interested in for you know more than 10 years now and uh it's it it's a hobby as well you know so it's not like something that grinds me down it takes a lot of effort a lot of work of course um but yeah i think you know if one day when i'm old and gray there's a ubi like yeah it was worth it sleepless nights
Speaker 1that would be so awesome man honestly just just the thought of it i mean the younger me you know in my 20s when i was like struggling i was like oh my god i'm so tired i'm so tired i'm so tired i'm so struggling as a musician and stuff like that to not have to work like crappy day jobs knocking doors in the rain and just throw myself fully into what i was doing as a musician and stuff like that i'm telling you dude if i if we had ubi when i was in my mid-20s there would be no stopping me i would have had like 10 albums out you know what i mean it would have been relentless
Speaker 2yeah no and that's it you know you know it's um i think that it allows people like i said you know with artists and stuff to follow their dreams and there's a lot of people that won't necessarily be able to do that so i think it's it's a lot of people that are willing to do that and i think with a ubi you know you can you can you have so much more autonomy you know and again like i said it's just you know multifaceted benefits so yes um like i said fingers crossed one day james you know hopefully not too long in the future
Speaker 1well as you said man without the will of the people nothing ever happens so you know we've got to get behind this i mean you've laid the clay that you've laid the case out there stark and clear the the numbers add up and then some the social benefits you know just a no-brainer and who doesn't want free money i mean come on that that should be the easiest thing in the world to sell to anybody hey do you want some free money you know so yeah so you know let's get behind this let's make this happen man i mean if you want some free dough then let's do it and it's not free it's your money essentially anyway you know what i mean like we pay into the system so i mean it's not like you're just sitting around getting free money you know so um you know this adds up it's a very well-tested very long-term idea that that stood the test of time let's get it man it sounds good to me i'm all like i'm going to do it i'm going to in so um if you listen to this and you're inspired and excited by what john's saying join a local lab set a local lab up start talking about it you know pressure your local counselors and your politicians and let's let's make this like a mainstream conversation and a mainstream idea that one day when john is old and gray as he just said he could sit back and think i did that
Speaker 2yeah definitely you know i want all the credit we'll give it to you
Speaker 1man thanks thanks pal john we better let you go man we've taken up way too much of your time and i really do appreciate it so thanks so much for giving us your time today and thanks for everything you're doing you know for the cause as well you've got me fired up i'm ready to get my pitchfork and take to the streets right now so um thanks again keep it going best wishes and hopefully i will see you on the
Speaker 2trenches man absolutely thanks so much for the invite james i hope you enjoyed wow totally man
Speaker 1and anytime dude and um maybe i'll bump into you on the uh the mean streets of cardiff sometime absolutely hope so cheers john have a great day thanks james what a cool dude and the first welshie on the show as well what do you think about that what a nice guy huh and did that information blow your mind did it cook your swede and other 80s sayings that i still can't remove from my vernacular i'm a i'm a i'm a convert man honestly to this idea of universal basic income to to ubi i'm i'm signed up i hope we've managed to convince you that it's a great idea as well don't take our word for it you know there's tons of literature whole books and studies and trials have been done on this so this isn't just a kind of weed smoking idealistic load of nonsense check it out it's a very well tested and very well researched um concept please do get involved with the local ubi lab or set your own up i mean there's other campaign groups as well but these guys seem as if they're doing a great bit of work so you know might as well get involved with them and if you're an international listener to the podcast they will undoubtedly be similar campaigns in your country as well so have a little look online and see if you can get involved with the we should be having it you know i mean does jeff bezos need a bigger yacht no he doesn't is elon musk an alien lizard of course he is ubi baby let's make it happen man let's do it unfortunately though a commonality with these podcasts is i'm realizing that it all comes down to us we've got to get out there and we've got to do it but there's so much to gain here so let's do it man spread the word tell your friends get the conversation going make this a name a mainstream narrative and join a ubi lab or who we know or somebody else but get involved and let's make this happen so the website address just to remind you is ubi lab lab ubi lab network.org there's tons of labs around the country that you can get involved in there's also resources to help you set up your own if there's not one in your county or your town and you've had an open invite there from john as well to drop him a dm on twitter or to contact them at the email address that he mentioned earlier so do it if you've got any questions ask the guys and then you can spread the word to your friends and anyone that'll listen and let's go get that free money baby let's take back what is rightfully ours let's in this time of the living crisis let's stop grinding and seeing people struggle and carrying the daily weight of feeling like we're being exploited and ripped off and lied to whilst other people are having the life of riley off the backs of our toil and our efforts and our labor and our tax dollars and our riches than the wealth that we generate down here on the ground level let's put that money back in the pockets of the people that really deserve it that really need it really earned it and really own it universal basic income man this is an idea whose time has come let's go get it and if you don't like the idea of having free money you can give your share to me so that's it for this week guys i hope you enjoyed that and found that interesting and informative i shall see you next wednesday at seven o'clock for another episode subscribe i'm gonna keep nagging you every single week until you hit that damn button subscribe whatever platform you listen to it on this is also on youtube as well i know there's no video content to these podcasts but a lot of people like to listen to it on youtube because it's like it's just easier that way um but if you do that please give it a subscribe and leave a comment like you know these are supposed to be conversation stars these episodes so leave a comment on the actual youtube page and so other people can you know share links and you know have a debate going um whatever you do hit the damn subscribe button and please as i said at the start of the episode i'll see you next week bye episode if you can leave me a rating like click click the star button and give me some stars and if you'd be so kind to leave us a review for the podcast as well whether it's on apple podcast or spotify wherever you get your podcast um that would be a massive help for me as well to get the the podcast a little bit more traction so thanks so much for listening i hope you're all awesome i hope you enjoyed the episode and i shall see you same time same place next week love you loads
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