#12 Dr. med. Grotenhermen: Wie ein Pionierarzt Cannabis als Medizin vorantreibt

Hey friends, if you've been sitting on a book idea and wondering could this actually become something, this is your moment. Join me in New York City on October 9th for Book to Brand. This is my intimate, full day immersive design to help you turn your idea into a clear, compelling, pitch ready book concept. You will meet the insiders, agents, publishers, and recent authors who can help bring your book to life. The first spots are limited and early bird tickets are on sale now, head to booktobrand.co to reserve your spot. So money episode 1985, autism, employment, and the workplace gap no one talks about. You're listening to So Money, with award-winning money guru Farneesh Karabi. Each day, in a 30-minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers, and from Farneesh herself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons? Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to So Money. I think hesitancy on the part of the employer sometimes, to hire someone on the spectrum. You know, it's something that we are definitely becoming more aware of. Everybody probably knows at least one person on the spectrum or has met someone on the spectrum. There are such differences in the way that autism can present. And so you may have an employer who has met someone who is very high needs or someone who is for example nonverbal. And so in their mind, that's what autism is. And so they say to themselves, "I can't hire someone on the spectrum. I couldn't handle that. I couldn't accommodate them." Welcome to So Money, everyone. I'm Farneesh Karabi. Our show today is about neurodivergence, the workplace, and a question that more families and employers are beginning to confront. Why are so many talented people still struggling to get hired and succeed at work, simply because the systems around them were not designed with them in mind? My guest is Dr. Helen Genova. She's the associate director of the Center for Autism Research at Kessler Foundation, where she also directs the social cognition and neuroscience laboratory. Dr. Genova's research sits in the intersection of neuroscience, social cognition, emotional processing, and disability research. And today we're focusing on one area where her work is having a really profound impact, helping autistic young adults navigate the hiring process and workplace culture, while also helping employers rethink what inclusion and talent recognition can actually look like. We'll get into why job interviews can be such a major barrier. The hidden communication mismatch happening in workplaces every day, and the importance of self-advocacy and employer education. And what all of us, whether we're managers, coworkers, parents, or job seekers, can do to build more supportive and successful work environments. Here is Dr. Helen Genova. [Music] Helen Genova, welcome to So Money. Thank you. It's so nice to be here. I'm really grateful for this conversation we're about to have, or recording this on April 30th, although it's airing in May, but just to recognize that it's autism awareness month. And our conversation's really going to focus on the workforce, the workplace, and how employers and employees can kind of come together and create more, like foster a better environment and foster a better workplace for people all on various places on the spectrum. But first we'd love to start with the bigger picture, and have you describe what you're seeing around autism and employment as you've talked about it as sort of a societal crisis? What is the urgency that you're seeing right now in the space? Yeah. Well, there are two things that are kind of driving this crisis, really. The first is something that likely you've seen in the news lately, or you've just noticed in everyday life, is that there is this ever-increasing prevalence rate of autism. Every year, it seems that the prevalence rates are just going up and up. And so you have a lot of individuals entering that employment age who are autistic. At the same time, though, you have this unemployment rate in autism. Some people estimate as high as 80% unemployment, which means only one in five adults on the spectrum will be employed. So if you think about this ever-growing number of individuals who can be employed, but then this 80% unemployment rate, you know, you think about the effect that has not only on the person who is on the spectrum, but on their families, on society in general. It really is something that as a society is concerning. And what do you cite as reasons for this disconnect? I mean, on the one hand, we've got just a really tough unemployment environment in general. But I sense that this is not a trend that just happened over the last few years. That it's been a growing trend, a widening gap. Talking about what you see is maybe some of the headwinds. So I think that there, it's multifaceted as with everything in the world. You know, you have, I think, hesitancy on the part of the employer sometimes to hire someone on the spectrum. But there are such differences in the way that autism can present. And so they say to themselves, I can't hire someone on the spectrum. I couldn't accommodate them. But really the truth is that autism can look vastly different from person to person. And so that hesitancy may be causing some difficulty in the hiring process. But really when you come right down to it, autistic individuals are more than capable of becoming amazing employees. But I think that that's probably one of the challenges. And then hiring practices are not really something that is something that is accessible to autistic people, which is the focus of my research. Yeah. So like, let's learn more about you. I'd love for you to talk about your research and your role at Tesla Foundation and how you, how are you working around and working on this problem/solution? Absolutely. So yes, so I'm the associate director for the Center for Autism Research at Tesla Foundation. And my work is really focused on helping individuals on the spectrum achieve their goals, really through learning about their strengths and using those strengths as sort of a hopping off point. And something that they can cultivate and use to achieve their goals, whether those goals be employment goals, like learning about your strengths so that you can sell yourself to a future employer, whether you learn about your strengths because you want to realize that those strengths are something you can rely on when you're feeling stressed out at work. So really what we focus on is developing and evaluating innovative strength based interventions to help autistic young adults and adults achieve their goals. And that's the broad umbrella look at what I do. For those who are younger, who are maybe this transition age group, what is what are your observations and why is this particular period so critical when we're talking about, you know, long term employment. And that's what's important for us is to keep our eyes on what we're doing and so we're going to do our best to get our work done. So, you know, the first and the third step is to get your work done. So, you know, I think this is what we're going to do. And then we're going to do that. So, there's a lot of things that are going to be done on the spectrum, let's say early in life. A lot of times what happens is they're just surrounded and supported, hopefully in school by their family. So, there's there's therapies that are given to them inside of school, outside of school, occupational therapy, speech therapy, physical therapy. And so, there's this whole system that sort of surrounds them of services to help them. When they graduate high school, they experience what's called a services cliff. And what that indicates is that there are all of these services that sort of disappear for them. So, let's say they're going off to college, it's really up to them to navigate that change themselves, to go to the disability services office and say, hey, I need help, I need accommodations. If they're not going to college, a lot of times they just don't have services anymore unless they go seek them themselves. So, that's what we call a services cliff. And it's a really critical time in their life when they're at very high risk of unemployment and which kind of sets them up, as you said, for failures, employment wise. Yeah. Moving forward. The job interview can also be a tricky setting. Take me to job interview. What are you observing there and then what are some ways to work around biases or anything else that could come up, even a simple question, tell me about yourself, if you're not prepared for that, which is hard for anybody, but particularly somebody who might be holding back fear around, gosh, what if they judge me? How much do I share about what's actually going on in my life? I want to also then talk about how relevant is it to bring it up in a workplace job interview, right? Sometimes maybe you don't have to mention this, depending, of course, on your level of autism and how it's going to manifest at work, potentially. Take me first to that, take me to the job interview. What are we? What's happening there? And how is that? What are the roadblocks there, potentially? So if you think about the job interview, most people have either been on a job interview or they have been in the role of interviewing someone at its core, it's a conversation, it's a social exchange in which you're presenting yourself to another person to be judged. Really, that's what it is. So you're balancing all of these things. You're telling them information that's good about you. You don't really want to talk about bad things about you, but you also need to appear. humble and so there's some strategy involved in speaking about yourself and it's a conversation. If you think about what's difficult in autism, one of the hallmark features of autism is social communication. So if you think about a conversation being a social exchange between two people and that is a job interview, all of the things that someone on the spectrum may find tricky, eye contact, speaking about something that the other person is interested in, taking turns in the conversation, perspective taking, strategy, picking what bits of information you're going to tell someone, holding back on information you don't want to share. That is exactly what can be difficult for people on the spectrum, but it's also the metric of success for a job interview. So if you do really well with that, you're going to land the job, but if you don't do well, then chances are you're going to have difficulty getting that job and it is just very challenging. And you brought up a great point, which is that first question, tell me about yourself. When you and I first sat down today and started talking, and I told you about my research, I told you about the Center for Autism. I didn't tell you where I like to go for dinner. I didn't tell you my favorite sushi roll. I didn't tell you about my dog. I picked which information I wanted to share and what I wanted to hold back. What we see with transition age youth on the spectrum is that they don't necessarily know which bits of information the other person is interested in. And while, for example, telling someone about your dog is really fine at a party or when you're talking to your friends, but when you're on a job interview, that's the kind of thing that might come across as socially unexpected to an employer. And so that's really the challenge is they have difficulty in strategically selling themselves to another person. Right. Bocusing honestly is good, but you also have to be strategic and give the employer what they're hoping to hear exactly as honestly as possible, but keeping that in mind too, centering it around the employer's needs. And so this brings us to you, you have a curriculum essentially around this, which as they are speaking, I'm like, how do we make this more accessible to everybody? Yes, people can listen to this episode and hopefully they've got a mentor in their lives, but you've really kind of codified this and you've created an accessible place for people to learn. And it's called KF stride. Tell us about that. Sure. So KF stride stands for a Kessler Foundation Strength Identification and Expression. And what it is, it's an online training tool. It's basically consists of animated videos. We tried to make it super fun and engaging, not boring because a lot of times kids who sit in school and learn these things, you know, either are reading about them through online articles or through their teacher and they're getting bored and they're not really engaged in the program. This we tried to keep it really fun. And there are two steps involved. The first one is helping youth to understand what their employable strengths are, what makes them really unique, what they bring to the table. A lot of kids on the spectrum simply don't know if you ask them, what are your strengths? They're going, I'm not sure. I don't know. So the first step is helping them to understand what those strengths are. The second step is helping them to speak about them in a socially appropriate way to an employer. And then we start to talk about, again, those that strategy of like, well, what information do you hold back? What information do you always put forward? You want to always be positive. You want to sell yourself and we break it down for them, step by step and give them tons of practice. So they're just taking these skills and practicing them again and again and again. So they start to feel confident. And that's that's okay if stride. Yeah, that's that's great. And not just for an interview setting, but once they're even on the job, right? And it's less of a controlled environment. You can't really anticipate what it's going to come up day after day. What are the most important things for for employers to understand and employ? To be able to create more equity at work, but also more of it an understanding too. Of where all of their employees are coming from. Absolutely. I think when you think about an employer, what they need to do is first of all, if you find yourself in the position of being the manager or supervisor of someone on the spectrum, educate yourself on the entire spectrum. What does it look like? What are some of the challenges that they may be experiencing? You know, one of the things that is so important to remember is that the challenges that they feel and the things that you might be seeing or dealing with, they're not under the person's control. It's a developmental disability, meaning they were born with this. And so it's not something that they are doing purposefully. They're for example, something that they might do is seek reassurance a lot simply because they don't feel confident in what they're doing. That's not something that they can really control. They're they're trying their hardest. So to educate yourself on some of the challenges that you may see in a person on the spectrum is is totally critical. The second thing I think is to be to lead by example the rest of the team is going to look to you for how they should treat this colleague of theirs. You know, so if you're leading a team with with an autistic person on the team to show them that hey, listen guys, we're tolerant here. This is this is an inclusive workplace. This person has skills and assets that that are good for us and for the work that we're doing. So let's treat them with respect. And the rest of the team will usually follow suit, but you have to be the one that kind of leads the way there. And I would say just be sensitive. Ask the person on the spectrum. How could I make this job easier for you? Is there a way that I can present tasks to you? Either it is it written? Is it verbal? What way do you prefer? And that can go a long way towards building an inclusive workplace. How does someone who is autistic who wants to make that clear to their employer? What point do you share that? How do you share that? Yeah. Again, because it's different for everybody. It's different. Yeah. There, you know, unfortunately, there isn't a good clear cut answer to that. And I wish that there was. I would say that if you have an employer, so one of two things can happen. If you share with a person that you're autistic, you may have someone who is like, that's awesome. And see this as an opportunity to, you know, as we said, build a more inclusive workplace. They may have someone on the spectrum in their lives and they may be like, I got it, then I know what to do here. Unfortunately, we also want to be realistic. And we also know that some people may judge someone on the spectrum. So I think that once you're hired, you can feel free to talk about your disability to human resources. They're really the ones that you can speak to about it. And they're the ones that can help you navigate that accommodation system. That would be my advice is that once you're hired to talk to human resources, and they'll be the ones that can really help you out there because you just don't know the reaction of other people. Unfortunately, what have you seen be some of the best accommodations? That's a great question. I think that to, and it depends on the person, because not everybody on the spectrum needs every type of accommodation. You have some people who the accommodations are more to the physical workplace. I need a place that's quiet so that I can focus. It's very difficult for me to meet personally. It's very hard when I'm hearing multiple conversations at once to be able to focus on the thing that I'm doing. So I need a place where I can shut the door and just focus. So that might be a simple accommodation. For some people, other parts of the physical environment, the lighting, the temperature, etc. That's physical. I would say the other type of accommodations are providing, for example, visual supports that can help the person. So let's say they're doing a technical job to have visual supports right there for them to see so that they can follow it visually. Some people may be a more visual thinker. And the other thing I would say is that when you're, you know, to be super concrete, if you want something done at 10, say we need this done at 10 o'clock, you can't just be like this morning, you know, because they might say, oh, this morning, I have until 11.59, you know, some people on the spectrum can be very concrete in their thinking. So to give them super clear, super concrete directions can minimize confusion, minimize miscommunication and set everything up for success. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, we could all use those. Everybody, everybody, you'd reinforcements, you know, with so much of the workplace going virtual, hybrid virtual, many benefits to that, some would argue not so great. But how do you see that in some ways working in favor of someone who is autistic, who, one, I just feel like it opens up more job opportunities when you can do things virtually versus also in person. But what's the ideal workplace? I know again, it's so hard to say, it's so individualistic, but you see that as a positive, the opportunity to work virtually because of someone who may need all these sorts of accommodations, they can provide that in their home themselves, like the quiet space, the, you know, whatever comfort level they need. Yeah, I think that again, it depends on the individual and what they're looking to get out of work. You know, I've talked to people who've said a lot of times their son or daughter is offered virtual and the, that person is actually disappointed because they were really looking for the ability to work, but also social connection, you know, sometimes work is the place where you have the best friends of your life, you know, so with some people working from home is kind of isolating and people on the spectrum can feel isolated anyway. And so sometimes working in the office is a really nice way for them to just connect with other people. On the other hand, sometimes people on the spectrum might get over overloaded with social demands and really just need a break. And so having that ability to work from home sometimes, maybe let them be in their comfort zone every once in a while, kind of regroup themselves emotionally and then return to work refreshed. So I really think it's dependent on the person and I think employers should really be open to being flexible. Some days I just want to work from home. You know, some days I just want to be in my pajamas and really kind of focus on what I'm doing and some days I crave interaction and it's the same with autistic individuals. Awesome. I'm the show we often talk about the importance of self advocacy at work. If you want to be more of a self advocate for yourself at work and you have autism, you talk about going to HR, but what are some other things you can do that are maybe more subtle, but get the point across that they sort of, you know, give you what you need. Yeah. I think when it probably comes in most when you have employees that are working together and there may be conflict within the team for the person if they feel comfortable sharing with other people, you know, I'm autistic or I have autism spectrum disorder, whatever they feel like saying. And that may make it difficult for me to quite understand the nuance or the joke or, you know, maybe I misunderstood you or maybe you misunderstood me because it does go both ways, you know, it's not just that they're misunderstanding others. It's sometimes that neurotypical individuals are misunderstanding them. Right. There's a lot of work around that and that there's an autistic culture and type of communicating that just is something that neurotypical individuals don't understand. So I think explaining that to your coworkers, especially when difficulties arise can go a long way towards increasing understanding. Before you start to have those significant issues where people need to get HR involved even to help resolve conflicts. Yeah. Do you find that certain industries or sectors are more equipped and more accepting of people who are on the spectrum as coworkers, employees, leaders. Very popular example is, you know, a lot of tech founders who go on to build incredible companies and often we don't know, but are they on the spectrum? Right. And it's just, it's sort of like a not, it's not really discussed. I don't know how they may have or may not have like shared that at work, but it was kind of like this understood thing and it wasn't considered a handicap, right? And so it goes back to also the question of like, I don't know, tech is depending on your role and your goals, like sometimes you don't even need to make it an issue, but I don't know. You know, I have found that there is really no, and it goes back to that if you've met one person with autism, you've only met one person. There's no, you know, there's no one place for them. You may have, you know, I have someone on the spectrum in my family and, you know, for him, he's not interested in tech way more artistic and, you know, would love to be in the arts. But then you may have individuals who, you know, went and got an engineering degree and that's where they're happiest and that's where they find their people. So it really does kind of go across all sectors of the workforce. What we recently have started finding is that there are so many amazing programs that were founded by family members of individuals on the spectrum. We have talked to so many parents who saw a gap in their community or a need in their community and created, for example, a bakery where their, their son could be employed and then opened it up to anybody on the spectrum and then created this really inclusive, welcoming environment. I would say it takes a couple of really dedicated people on staff who are devoted to inclusivity, building this, this type of workforce and really celebrate autistic individuals because there are so many strengths that they can offer. I mean, you know, you have met, I've met some people on the spectrum with the best work ethic. You know, we'll show up. There'll be the first ones there that day and the last one to leave telling you every step of the way what they're doing. And I just think that that hesitancy on the part of the employers is such a shame because if they got to know some of these individuals, you know, they would really see what amazing employees that they can be. Yeah. So many opportunities for the companies that get it right and make the effort. And you also have resources for employers in addition to prospective employees. We talked already about, you know, hiring the right people who are dedicated to supporting people of all abilities at work. But what else? I mean, maybe we have to rethink the interview process. And I'm just curious like what other out of the box thinking is required here. So I would say, yeah, the interview process is definitely one that I think that people could rethink. You know, could, for example, allow someone on the spectrum to bring a presentation with them to show you all of the things that they're good at. They might want to use a visual support system when talking to you and kind of presenting themselves to you in a different way than what we're typically used to thinking on the spot answering might not be something that they find easy. But with some planning, if they knew the questions ahead of time, they could prepare the answers to them. I think also with employers, patience is critical. Even starting at the interview, you know, you ask a question to say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." And then I think, you know, I think that's the only way to get the answer. And I think that's clear to you that the person has more to say, you know, say to them, is there anything more you'd like to say? I'd love to hear more. Keep going, keep talking. Just to be super welcoming, put them at ease, you know, so that's the job interview. And then, you know, all of exploring accommodations once that person is working for you. And then, you know, really taking a look at yourself and saying, what kind of an employer do I want to be? who's tolerant of others, no matter what they are. I don't want just one type of employee. When we have all this diversity, that's when people's strengths kind of complement each other, and you may see you may have an asset in a teammate that you didn't even know if you didn't bother to look for it. And so I think with employers, to just be open minded and to do a little bit of digging both in their employees and in themselves. - Yeah. And not to forget too, that we have caregivers in this equation as well, right? - Yeah, very easy. - And what's the appropriate level of involvement for caregivers, right? We want to make sure that our children, our adult children are getting the jobs on their own. But also recognizing that, if you can help them, how can you help them? How far should you go? - Yeah. I think that that is such a great question and I think that there is such a great opportunity for caregivers to help. So when you're the mother of a kid on the spectrum, you don't want to be like the helicopter mom. - Right. - Always there and sort of hovering. You also can't be completely standoffish. And well, let them figure it out on their own. So what I would say is this is not the time to kind of dump them in the deep end and hope that it'll sink or swim. - Good luck. - Yeah, good luck kid. I think that, you know, number one, you can investigate with them what types of jobs are out there. You know, go with them. They might be super nervous to just walk into a place and say, hi, here's my resume. You know, go with them, support them, give them those pep talks in the car. You got this. Go ahead, you can do this. Before the interview, I think planning with them ahead what they're going to wear. Don't do that the day off. Don't have those stressful conversations. The day off that is setting yourself up for disaster. Practice with them. Google most frequently asked questions on job interviews and then just practice until that kid just feels really secure and giving the answers. And then I would say the other important thing is handling rejection. It's so, you know, when you put yourself out there and then you don't get the job, it can be absolutely devastating, especially for someone on the spectrum for which this was such a difficult experience for them anyway. But that's when you as a caregiver or a caretaker, whatever term you want to use to say to them, listen, this was just a practice opportunity for you. This was just a time for you to perfect your pitch and we're going to keep going and the job for you is out there and to encourage them not to give up. So I think you as the caregiver can really just support them the whole way. Don't worry about being too involved. I think it's, they need your help. I'm working up your whole hell end because I'm looking at also how something as simple as a D E and I group at a company gets dismantled in a political climate like ours, right? There's a lot of fear that, you know, and I have to get into it, but you know, there is that going on. A lot of like other sorts of special interest groups within companies and organizations getting dismantled because again, politics. And so it begs the question, you know, where obviously this is so important and we want to create workplaces that are understanding and accessible to people of all abilities. But what do you say to that company who's like, how do I, what, like this investment kind of scares me because I feel like we're gonna, we're just living in a very like challenging time and I don't know how else to articulate this. It's sort of like I'm trying to get people to read between the lines here, but this is happening, right? As soon as you start to say, we are standing up for this group of people. People are going to believe it or not. Some people aren't for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you've seen what I'm talking about. There are examples of this. I think that, you know, number one, if a company or an employer doesn't see the value of a person on the spectrum, then it's probably not a good place for that person to be employed. You want to go where there is a culture of acceptance and tolerance. And that's where you're going to find your people and that's where you're going to find success. I think the other thing that kind of gives me hope is really, and I know it sounds corny, but like hope in humankind, you know, the fact that there is so much more awareness and knowledge of autism, I think that we have seen such a rise in self advocates who really show people what this population is capable of and what kind of amazing employees that they can be. And I think that we are seeing some with or without policies, you know, we are seeing some increases in autistic hiring practices and celebrating of neurodiversity. That gives me hope. I also, in the research that we do to be able to see that people can improve when you give them these sorts of lessons, like whether it be K of stride or any of the other programs that exist out there, you know, do see advances and people getting employed and feeling more confident. So those are the things that give me hope. Well, we are very grateful for your research, your resources coming on the show. Helen, you know, but thank you so much. Tell us where we can learn more. So you can learn more about K of stride at www.kofstride.org and you can find out more about me at the Kessler Foundation website, which is www.kesslerfoundation.org. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. It was wonderful to be here. Thank you to Dr. Helen Genova, Associate Director of the Center for Autism Research at Kessler Foundation for joining us. We have the link to where you can get more information about her KF stride program in our show notes. I'll see you back here on Friday for Ask for News. I hope your day is so money.