#118 The Recipe for Digital Wellbeing with Greta Rossi

Because technology allows us to change the way we relate to ourselves but also how we connect to others and in general how we engage with the wider world and The fact that technology connects us, you know, it's not rocket science But it's still important to remember that because sometimes we like to think about Humans as being separate from from nature right isolated from the rest of the world around us, but we're not so through technology We can learn new ways as well to to connect. That was our guest Greta Rossi Greta heads up recipes for well-being an organization that works for the fundamental evolution of the support for change makers around the world and in particular to their digital well-being in This episode Greta is going to talk to us about how she perceives digital well-being the future of the issue as well of digital well-being in an age of constant digital innovation and Also, how you can start to think more seriously about your relationship to the digital world But before we start with the episode, I want to welcome you to digital mindfulness on this show We bring together experts from around the world with a focus on delivering and creating time while spent digital experiences Over the past four years We've brought together global thought leaders to discuss the latest thinking on topics such as digital wellness ethical computing Humane technology digital detoxing information overload and much much more To find out more about us and to join our growing international community Go to digital mindfulness.net where you'll find some required listening podcasts to get you going and also links to our upcoming international events Okay, let's get on with the show. I hope you enjoy listening to Greta Rossi Greta, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show today and I'm really looking forward to our discussion about digital well-being So welcome to the show Thank you, Lawrence. I'm super excited to be here and thank you again for the invitation I'm really curious to chat with you now You're very welcome So Greta, tell the audience if you were just a little bit about yourself What recipes for well-being is exactly and particularly how you came to it because you've got a fascinating story Absolutely, so I'll try to share a little bit about my story in a way that though introduces the journey of recipes for well-being too because as you can imagine They're very interconnected So I'm gonna take you back to May 2015 When I was accepted to the changemaker exchange summit in Istanbul and this was a five-day Conference for young social entrepreneurs from Europe North Africa and the Middle East and this actually was the first time that it was let's say Accepted onto something. I had been running my social enterprise Akash innovation in London for 18 months and until then I had only received rejections from Grand-giving bodies fellowship. So as you can imagine I was pretty excited to go to Turkey to spend a few days with fellow Changemakers to to learn from them and to also share my own experience and as it turns out I wasn't the only one who had also experienced, you know Criticism and rejections and failure who had felt isolated and alienated and emotionally overwhelmed as well as physically exhausted It was something that was pretty shared Across the cohort across the people who are there with me and I remember that at one point I proposed to run a very short mindfulness meditation session for those who just wanted to give it a go and Because I'd found it very powerful for my own journey So I wanted to share with others and what happens is that to my surprise Everyone in the group join for that brief session I clearly wasn't prepared for everyone in the group to join but it was it was great and most importantly it gave me a Sense that maybe just maybe we needed more of this in the summit. So the following year I reunited with a few other change makers and I met others We had our own let's say alumni summit and what this was in Marrakesh in May 2016 And what happened is that I was invited as a half participant half facilitator And when I was ready facilitator hat actually I was testing for the first time officially within a community a few well-being activities and these were very well received and What we saw is that they lifted up the energy of the summit So this was a very important insight another one, but more importantly, that's where I met Alessia and where I reunited with a fellow another fellow change maker Tarek and both of them now They're my co-founders at recipes for well-being and Curiously enough Alessia actually who attended a different summit She was part of a small group of change makers who received a very small collaboration grant to implement a two-day well-being retreat for them after the Marrakesh gathering Because they were also very tired and exhausted. So just wanted to you know, take care of themselves for a little bit and Tarek joined that retreat and during those two days they co-created an incredible Retreat, you know where they explore different well-being techniques activities and tools So we can say that those two experiences me facilitating these well-being activities at the change maker exchange summit and Alessia Posting this first well-being retreat. They were the insipid of recipes for well-being even before it was called recipes for well-being But what was clear is that there was a need for that. So we decided to Explore further. So what happened is that we met we met up in Paris. It was very hot It was I think it was the world's cup finals week So it was really hard very crowded and we were a team of five back then and we applied for a slightly bigger fund in which we got To basically prove our concept and to test and pilot for well-being retreats And so we were in Paris planning, you know, and as we were planning we're eating a lot because they're all food lovers so the name naturally came to mind recipes for well-being and The idea is that you know We feed our bodies with good food and we find inspirations from new recipes in cookbooks or when we go to a restaurant So we wanted to create a concept for well-being that is accessible and nutritious So in nutshell, that's what recipes for well-being is about we love food But we also love food for for our well-being. So What we really try to do here is to change the culture of change making to include a focus on holistic well-being So that anyone could actually contribute effectively to making a positive change in the world And I realized that you know, this could maybe sound a very dense sentence. So let me just break it down By culture of change making what we mean is that we see that many activists social care workers Social entrepreneurs and in general we live in a society that is based on a paradigm of fear and scarcity There's not enough time. There's not enough money. There is never enough people to get the job done There's always more to do there's more crisis breaking out around the world So we always are in constant fear and we have this sense of scarcity never enough So we want to change that we really want to move from scarcity to abundance and to really Appreciative fullness and richness of life So this is one important thing to mention that fits into this well-being Definition but also for us well-being is not just about going to a spa and taking an afternoon off Of course, that's important, but we really see well-being as a catalyst for positive change in the world Because when you as a change maker when you experience well-being for yourself That's of course great But also you're then empowered to then spread it to others To spray to your team to your community to your society So you're actually changing the whole world by focusing on yourself and this is very important That by focusing on your own inner work, then the effectiveness of your outer work increases And finally, I know this is a term that is overused by what do we mean by holistic? It means that for us well-being is more than a good state of health in the absence of problems because you know There's ups and downs in life So we want to embrace the good and the bad Let's let's call it this way and try to bring our minds our bodies our hearts and our souls into alignment So all of them work together to support each other So we really see this well-being as we can call it as a state of flourishing of thriving You know, this is another term that people use to really embrace the fullness of life And of course as we are change makers, so then also contribute to making positive change in society. I Think that's a great story Greta because it just has relevance to absolutely everybody because our well-being is not something I think that people Even if we're aware that we need to take care of our well-being. I don't think we know how to do it So having these recipes as you put it these guidelines for Taking care generally of our well-being as we go through day to day is really incredibly important Yes, I mean, it's easy to say Oh, I look after my well-being but I'm on holiday and I don't have any work and I'm sitting maybe on a beach with a really nice drink You know, that's fairly easy It's much harder to look after ourselves when we're stressed and we're anxious when you have deadlines, but this is when it's important I always remember there was a beautiful quote from the Dalai Lama who said, you know, I meditate every day for half an hour But it is on those days where I'm really really stressed that I made for one hour It's exactly when we think that we don't have the time we don't have the energy We don't have the resources that's when we need well-being So this is what we really want to try to do with our recipes is to make it more accessible Make it so that it can be incorporated in your life rather than you need to take, you know A week a month off and go on a sabbatical. That's great But not everyone can do that. So it's how do you really change and adapt so that you can still work Still do all your things, you know, look after your family and whatnot, but also flourish and thrive So I really want to go back to something that you mentioned about the fact that you believe we're living in an era of heightened scarcity or feelings of scarcity and fear and I wonder if we can just talk about why that is particularly now I mean, I think we're seeing that the world is changing faster and faster and technology is playing a role in this and People are more aware of everything is going on right before Back in a day, you know before you actually got to know about what was happening all the other side of the world It would take maybe you would ever even know about it now It's really easy to get access to information and it's very fast and the Society is changing very fast and we are not adapting fast enough I'm talking from the consciousness level from a moral level And so it feels that we're technology and society is always a bit. It's outpacing us, right? And so there is a sense of you know, I always I need to do more You know where when we think about our children and we tell them, you know Actually your job the job you will do is hasn't been created yet, which is great from that creative potential But also puts out of stress and anxiety because we don't know what the future holds for us We don't even know what if the present holds for us anymore. So this creates a lot of anxiety and pressure for people I think this is being from my personal experience working with change makers And of course, there is the whole other lots of the global crisis, right? Make I'm more aware of climate change and other natural disasters that are happening around the world war and conflict still Many problems around women's issues gender equality all of that. So We're becoming more and more aware of these problems and we're just overwhelmed, which is it's normal. It's a lot to take in So great. So I'm really interested to know how you personally would define well-being in a digital age That's a very good question. I'm gonna go back to the food metaphor because we're food lovers and Digital well-being for us. It's about crafting and consuming a balance and very diet Where digital technologies are actually feeding our minds our bodies hearts and our souls with all the nutrients they need So the idea is that digital well-being starts with yourself, right? But it doesn't stop there It is also concerned to how you share a meal with with your with your family with with your colleagues so you can really appreciate appreciate the richness of all life around us and The food metaphor really works for me because when we if we really want to have a balanced diet We need fruits. We need veggies. We need cereal. We need carbs. We need we need a bit of everything But it has to be balanced. It has to be varied and he has to be Built on our own body on what we need. So this is one important thing that digital well-being this digital diet is Person to each of us, but what I would like to stress out about digital well-being is The fact that it's relational because technology allows us to change the way we relate to ourselves but also how we connect to others and in general how we engage with the wider world and The fact that technology connects us, you know, it's not rocket science But it's still important to remember that because sometimes we like to think about Humans as being separate from from nature, right isolated from the rest of the world around us But we're not so through technology. We can learn new ways as well to to connect to other people to ourselves and the rest of life and I think this new technology especially are Accelerating and expanding this connection this connection element But sometimes they're not enabling a healthy connection, but there are maybe inhibiting this healthy collection connection So for us when we talk about crafting a balanced digital diet is so that you can boost your your well-being as An individual but also as a collective so that again you can find, you know, what you need to flourish and As we explored earlier already I said, you know when you are thriving then you're more likely and better equipped to help others to thrive So I really see as technology having a big equation in the whole in the bigger field of well-being. I Think it's really easy to find these days stories in the mainstream media about the different ways that technology contributes to Decreasing our health or contributing to anxiety, etc But can you just talk about what it would feel like or what it actually is to thrive with technology or to get digital well-being? Sure, I mean again I speak from experience because I think this is the most important in terms of the most direct body of knowledge I have access to and You know, if I think about recipes for well-being, it's we're three at the moment So it's a really tiny team I'm based in Italy my co-founder Alessia. She's based in Switzerland and Tarek is busy in Bahrain Now this means that we meet physically if we're lucky once a year Which is of course great and I would never replace physical meetings, right and physical meetups and the importance as well of this physical proximity However, if it wasn't for technology, I'm afraid the recipe for well-being wouldn't be where it is now a days and So we use different online platforms to facilitate our work from, you know project management platforms like Trello and communication Platforms like Trello we zoom or Skype. So, you know the name So this obviously makes our work a lot easier from where we are because imagine if every time we had to travel to see each other This and also enabled us to make connection, you know to incredible people like yourself So this has made a lot of things possible and also to the flexibility Right because I'm sitting in my living room, right and I can do this rather than having to go to an office to meet you So I think this has been one of the most important thing as well Though he has to be balanced well because all of a sudden we could end up having meetings very early in the morning very late Over the weekends and therefore the technology is not enabling us to have that freedom the flexibility that controlled But actually becoming slaves of these technologies where they're actually not nurturing our well-being So like anything it's about crafting that balance and really knowing what works for you and where to put the boundaries and really set the limit and try to respect that Thanks for that definition and I think it's really helpful Because a lot of times when we do talk about Well-being in the digital sphere It's really easy to lean towards say looking at more vulnerable Communities in our society. So for example, we talk a lot about well-being for children But I think with these recipes for well-being that you've just described These again can be applied to everyone and can help everybody to think more expansively about their digital well-being Absolutely, I mean the idea of a well-being recipe mean what is it? Let's let's explain you so that our listeners can get a better sense of what we're talking about If I take you to if I tell you to take a cookbook You open it and what do you find in it you have information about its recipes and each recipe will tell you okay for this particular dish You need certain ingredients need maybe a certain kind of preparation is required You need specific tools and maybe it tells you how long to cook it for and what temperature So it gives you all the information and this is exactly what we want to do with well-being So in the same way that a recipe in a cookbook takes you through the steps to prepare a particular dish Our well-being recipes guide you through specific process to cultivate well-being in your everyday working life So they can really be easiest following step one two and three and you can adapt it. So There are there is a variety of Recipes on our websites and these are freely accessible I think I really want to mention this because we really want to make this knowledge accessible to everyone We don't own it, you know, it comes from different bodies of research It comes from me reading thousands of no, maybe not thousands, but many many books on on various topics including Neuroscience neuropsychology and this is important as well that some of these recipes are Embedded and they're backed by scientific research And so their recipes to call to cultivate your mental well-being but also your physical well-being emotional and spiritual so we try to look at all four of them and like anything, you know when you go to a restaurant you can Start begin with a starter then move on to the main and then go to dessert So that's what we do with our recipes. So you can choose. Okay. Do you want maybe just a very quick activity? Deep into a starter or you're looking for a more full-bodied experience move on to a main course So you want something nice to conclude and your team meeting on a well-being, you know, and then you move on to dessert So we really also play around with the food language to make it easy for people to actually Engage with our recipes, you know There's from very easy to really spicy recipes that may be required more extended knowledge or well-being And the idea is that this can work for for anyone, you know They work of course for change makers, but anyone because very often they what they they What they do is that they help us to feel more appreciated more valued They they boost our immune system They improve the way we relate to our colleagues and co-workers They change maybe the dynamics in a team, you know, creating a culture of openness so they can really work across cultures across context and Definitely we want to expand and tailoring some of these activities more for each the well-being and of course for younger people children and teens I Really like this idea of digital well-being. So I think it would be great if you could share with the audience an Example of one of these recipes and also just the effect that is had on some of the people that you've worked with Yes So regarding digital well-being, let's see one activity that is really simple and I think it taps into everyone's life is Emailing right we are bombarded by an amount of emails and overwhelm and I'm getting to the point where I'm literally starting to hate emails But of course there is a way to change my relationship to emails And this is by engaging in what we call mindful emailing and this is a really quick and simple practice But it's so powerful. So let me guide you through it because it's very simple So maybe what you want to do is think back of an email that you sent, you know The past few days where you maybe were upset with someone you responded Angrily in every active mode, right? You didn't have time that email arrived Someone didn't understand what you said before and then you just responded and blurted your response like really reactively Take back that email and try to write again. What would be an answer for my more mindful place? so what you can do is to Stop you write a sentence you stop for a moment Look back try to read and read try to think about what is the intention here? You know, what do I want? What is the message I want to come across and most important? How we advise to the other person and this is very important because actually what you realize is that you could think like Oh, this is you know, I'm becoming slower because this takes more time actually becoming much more effective because a You stop replying to certain emails that don't need a response Be you actually write something that adds value to the other person sometimes just writing and responding reactively Does not help our communication does not help the relationship to get to a better place does not help our collaboration So really think about the bigger picture and what is your intention and then put into words? so on our website we actually have The the more precise guidelines on how you can do Practices mindful emailing and we've seen we actually tested this in our workshop and that helps But also another thing that is important a thing around digital well-being is learning sometimes how to disconnect so when we host workshops or even our Immersive retreats what we do is that we encourage people to not use their phones for a little bit and see what happens and Sometimes especially we yet with young people or younger generations. What we see is that they have they look at us and they're Scared they're like what you're asking me not to use my phone for let's say half a day and And this is because and sometimes they don't realize they're addicted, right? We all are nowadays and so until sometimes you remove in small bites, right? Because if it is an addiction you can't go you have to be careful about removing this addiction When you create this experience Which can be short of removing the phone away and allowing them to disconnect to then reconnect in a different way You raise their self-awareness of their digital usage and they're like oh wow I didn't realize this or they didn't realize that it would create certain physical symptoms and reactions in them So it's important as well to create these moments of disconnection So that the following time when we reconnect we do so in a more mindful and meaningful way Everything that you've just been speaking about Gretta really relates to enhancing people's awareness of how they use email Like their emotional state when they're responding to different people or when they're composing different emails But what's your opinion of the different digital wellness or well-being tools that for example? Allow us to see our screen time how much time we're spending with our devices and and the other plethora of digital well-being tools What's your opinion of combining that greater awareness with the other? Digital tools that we have available to us. I think so I think it can help for many people I think what is important again? We need to find the trigger which is different for everyone right because sometimes think about climate change We know the statistics we have the data and yet it's still difficult to change our behavior And so, you know, we can get information about screen time about, you know, what which applications we use and realize Oh, wow, I didn't realize I spent X amount of hours, you know, scrolling down a particular social Networking site or so that of course can can work for some people, but it doesn't work for everyone and so that's why sometimes it's important to create these experiences of allowing people to To do something different so they can reflect back, but I would say and the invitation Comes again from personal experience is that whatever your engagement with digital technologies and whatever your journey and Whatever changes you want to make is that what is important to do is to cultivate compassion compassion towards ourselves because imagine that, you know, my phone tells me, okay, you spent 16 hours on your phone today and That can be like I can feel pretty shit about myself and be like how is this possible, you know, and you feel and you know Pull myself down. And so when I cultivate self-compassion I also create that space To really care for myself because just putting myself down doesn't help me to nurture my well-being so the invitation is if you're new to this concept of digital well-being and Once you start digging deeper into you realize that there is wow a lot to be done a lot to be changed Please please please really be compassionate towards yourself and towards others because everyone has their own journey So it's easy to judge someone based on, you know, when we see even people on their phones You know on the tube or in a bus is talking loudly. You know, it's easy to assume be like oh look at that But we don't know their story. We don't know what led them to where they are. So let's cut them some slack I think this topic of digital wellness is just so important for everyone, particularly as we As the world becomes increasingly digitized And it's something that people are going to be just aware of they're going to be aware of their state of how they feel and The kind of impact that using these digital tools has or not only themselves, but there are surroundings But I guess the real question I want to ask you Greta Is your opinion on the future of digital well-being particularly as our technology landscape becomes more cluttered with things like virtual reality AR AI, you know, all of these new technologies that are going to become Increasingly used by consumers. What then is the future for digital well-being? Wow, that is a good question and I wish I had the answer to that probably would be somewhere else if I knew it To be honest with you as I mentioned earlier, I'm not I'm not sure I can give a thought and I can do justice to this question because technology is Decisive are evolving very fast and sometimes too fast for human consciousness to follow So it's a it's really even hard to imagine what could be in five years really, you know so I don't know but what seems reasonable for me to say is that I think that technology will become more and more present So if anything the topic of digital well-being will become ever more important This means though that the conversation is not static the The definition of digital well-being will continue to change Our approach to it will need to change the tools and resource techniques will need to adapt Because a few years ago everything about children young people there I guess the main technology would be tv and so we started hearing, you know And about the impact of spending too many hours on my tv And then we started to get and and three and three players and then I put and then the iPhone came in and then they and all of that so It's important that we see digital well-being not as an end but as an ongoing process and so Even when we try to achieve this digital well-being we we must remember that it's not something we can achieve and be like Okay, now I am well You know done. No, it's an ongoing process of regrounding rebalancing and exploring and testing So I would say that the future holds a lot of exploration a lot of exciting Changes and like anytime technology is not neutral, right? So we I would say we should also question the intention Of the people developing these technologies because technology itself is not neutral because there are people behind it And not just people I think Especially moving into the future So essentially Gretta we're talking about having greater awareness or I guess being much more intentional about The technology that we do use but again As our as our technology becomes increasingly screen free Do you think that this same even if we apply this same level of awareness even though Technology becomes much more ambient in our lives. Do you think that's still going to apply? Yeah, I think I would agree and in general it expands beyond, you know the digital world, right? So is how do we have nurturing and supportive relationships in our lives? How do we? doing our physical activity and How do we work and find meaning in our work but also have you know hobbies and take time for other recreational activities So I would say like, you know for digital well-being as well being in general It's about this constant grounding and rebalancing and getting to know ourselves better because Our needs are changing as we grow older As we meet new people as we maybe set up a family or move to another country or change jobs So the needs are always changing for our well-being and so the tools and resources and techniques need to also change Whether it is through technology or through other people and other sorts of activities So Gretty, you've really been doing a lot of work with other companies on your approach to digital well-being Can you talk a little bit about that? Sure, absolutely. Um, actually, this has been a really new exciting adventure for us Back in June we were invited to contribute to a new set of educational videos on google digital workshop On the topic of digital well-being. So how do we empower people to achieve a health relation with technology? And these videos Are released. Well, I mean I would release soon or probably as people listen to us Have just been released and so I definitely invited to check them out and I think what we Shared was a little bit of what we shared here as well. So the broad definition of well-being White is important for people To think about in you know, what is there? What does the research say in terms of how does technology enable well-being but also how does technology sometimes prevent well-being? And what are some of the practices and tips that people can try out to cultivate well-being? After that we were invited to give a workshop actually on well-being and issue well-being During the web summit in lisbon, which is the I think the world's largest tech event Uh, it just happened this november so about a month ago and now we hope to continue our exploration with google over the coming years Because this is a new emerging topic for them and it is for us Um, and it's something that we see more and more of a need for especially also in our well-being retreat So these are physical well-being retreats, but the digital conversation is becoming more and more important as well Fabulous, so where can people find out more about you and your work and connect with you? Sure. Well, I mean oddly enough or maybe not the best place to find out more about our work is online So, uh, I invite everyone to check out our website. It's recipes for well-being dot org As I mentioned earlier in our conversation our website already has lots of different recipes for well-being There is about 80 plus and these are again activities to cultivate and boost the well-being both at work and in life If you're interested though in knowing a little bit more about some of the concepts we work we work with I also write a blog post for the shift media channel, which is part of the well-being project So again, uh, if you like reading and want to get a bit more food for thoughts You can check out and the link is well-being dash project dot org forward slash shift And finally, I think this is the the one that I share I really am really excited about is that you can join one of well-being retreats If you want to really get your hands dirty so to say and explore this topic of well-being Currently we have a place available for our next retreat, which will happen in spring in may in italy in beautiful countryside with delicious food So all information is on our website And of course all the main social media channels and of course any questions, you know contact us. We're Approachable people so we're always happy to chat with you and collaborate if there is any opportunity Well Greta look, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your insights about digital well-being and everything that you're doing I really wish you the very best of luck Thank you so much. It was my absolute pleasure and really again. Thank you for inviting me and I really look forward to To learning more together about this exciting topic of digital well-being Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh