#115 | Catherine Goh Chooses Accountability Over Title

0:00 Catherine's First Encounter: Who is Tony and What's an EA? I never met Tony in my life. I never even really heard of him because he's so high up. I was like job grade one, right? So that was the question, who's Tony? What's an EA? What does EA do? After that I went on interview with him. Really, really quick interview, OK. 0:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, tell us about it. 0:15 Speaker 1 What's your name? What do you do in Asia? How old are you? What does your family do? And surprisingly, the one that caught me is what does your family do? Because. 0:38 Welcome to The Game of Impossible Podcast Welcome to the Game of Impossible podcast. My name is Leon, and this is a podcast where we discuss all things transformation through the lens of business, leadership, sport and faith. And it is my great pleasure to invite our first guest after our long break. We have Catherine GOH here in the studio with us. 0:55 Catherine, thank you so much for being in the studio. 0:57 Speaker 1 Thank you Leon for having me. 1:00 Speaker 2 Catherine, you know, there's so much that we can that we can, you can cover about the work, about your, your story. But I think I want to first start with, you know, put the titles and the job aside. Who is Catherine Go? 1:11 Unveiling Catherine Goh: More Than Just a CEO Well, such a good question. I think if you talked about Catherine for me, a third party perspective, I guessed I am still the person, the girl that helped my family to sell fruits at the food stall, the Bassemam girl deep inside me. 1:34 Perhaps I I guess the Pasam story or the Pasamalam experience has taught me a lot about business lessons before I even knew the business terminology, right? I learned cash flow matters from the Pasamalam. I learned every customers matter from the fruit stall. 1:53 I learned that inventory has consequences, you know, from the fruit stall. Yeah. So. So I guess to me, I'm still that that normal, ordinary girl. I never really thought of my identity as like the CEO, which is a strange realizations of me. 2:14 Yeah. And I guess a side of whatever that people label on me. I'm just another sister to my sisters, a daughter to my parents, perhaps to some extent a leader to my team members. 2:33 But I would more prone to calling myself A-Team player in my team. Yeah, because to some certain extent, I guess, like my team members are leading me instead of me leading them on things that they are better than me. 2:48 And of course, if you ask me, I think I'm a learner. I love learning of new things. That excites me. I love building things and if ever, ever, that's one identity that I want myself to be labeled as a woman of faith, yes. 3:07 Speaker 2 Yeah, and we'll definitely talk a little bit more about that later. 3:12 Survival Mindset: Lessons from the Pasar Malam But you know, just just maybe zooming in, in your, you know, you call yourself the Pasam Alam girl. And obviously when we, when we look at guests to bring on the show, our podcast is called The Game of Impossible. And so, you know, in all of our guests, it's always because we recognise that there's a certain hunger to want to do impossible things. 3:30 Now, obviously you, you could probably say that from from helping to run a Pasam Alam to being CEO of Santan, that that in itself is impossibility. But I wonder, was there a moment when you were a kid, you know, when you were helping your parents, was there a moment where you kind of realise that perhaps there's a, perhaps this is training me for something, something bigger? 3:52 Speaker 1 I always thought that I would end up like all my family members, running my own business. I never thought that I would end up in the MNC, right? I always thought I would want to be an entrepreneur because it's running in the generations of my family members. None of us is actually working for a corporate. 4:09 So when I was, of course, when I was a kid in that situation, all that I thought was survival, right? It's not about, OK, I want to be the CEO. Never have I one day thought that I want to be ACEO because to me, that's a role. 4:26 It's it's just another job. I I never thought being ACEO is is a very glamorous thing or a fancy thing. Yeah. 4:35 Speaker 2 You know, you talked about being being a learner and I love that because I mean that that's something that I always try to remind myself to do as well. What were some of the key learnings in your kind of Pasam Alam days? What were some of the key challenges? 4:50 And then what did you, what did you learn from that? How did that shape you? 4:54 Speaker 1 I think of course a side of cash flow before I know P and Li already know cash flow. You know, I never thought P&L is a thing right before I got into finance. So all this basic learning already taught me when I was running that like helping my parents selling fruits. 5:11 But one key learning is that if you ask me, it's irregardless how tough life is, you still have to wake up at 4:00 and keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not a survival. 5:27 Yeah. 5:27 Speaker 2 So the learning mindset actually stem just from a place of I need to survive, yes, and therefore to survive means I've got to just. 5:35 Speaker 1 Learn. Yes, and you got to bring in that cash that is the ultimately #1 priority at KPI every day for years, right? It's not about, let me, you know, learn about how to manage AP and L cash flow. But you think it's no longer like that? 5:50 Is survival consistently on survival mode and. 5:54 Speaker 2 You know, it's funny you say that you never thought about going into corporate because your, your main lens was just survival, but I think actually that's probably what set you up quite well to go into an environment that's very much very fast-paced, working with a boss who is also very, very fast-paced. 6:11 I mean, we've had we've had your boss thanks with Tony here before. He also operates at a particular speed and intensity too. 6:19 How Tony Fernandes Took a Chance on Her So maybe now let, let let's go over there and let's cover a little bit of, you know, he, he, he took a he took a chance. He took a chance on you. He saw something and then he gave you the, the ability to be able to grow in that. Tell us a little bit about that journey. 6:33 Speaker 1 I think of course I for the rest of my life, I will be always very grateful to Tony because he is the person that sees beyond my CV and he gave me the opportunity. So I guess the good quality of Tony that I want to pick up and be a good leader is people, right? 6:53 He really treasured talent and he really give people chances to grow. That is something to me. It's, it's so precious as a leadership quality because we like it or not. 7:09 A lot of leadership stylists to look into your CV, your experience, what have you achieved instead of taking risks on talent that has not proven themselves yet, right, because they were not given the environment and stuff like that. With Tony, I guess is is pretty straightforward and simple. 7:28 I went one day I got a call from a management saying that Tony is looking for an EA. At that point I was like really naive and young. I didn't even know what, what was EA about? Like all about what? What does EA do? I don't even know what EA stands for. 7:42 Speaker 2 What did you think it was at the time? 7:44 Speaker 1 I don't know at all. Just. 7:45 Speaker 2 Went in like blindly. 7:47 Speaker 1 I actually asked over the phone what's EA and the person got frustrated and said why don't we just Google? Of course then funny thing is I didn't even know who Tony was because I was so into my job. I was an analyst, network planner, analyst when I got the call. 8:03 So everyday I really clocked like 1415 hours working, producing reports and stuff like that. I, I didn't bother knowing the work structure of the company. I never met Tony in my life. I never even like really heard of him because he's so high up. 8:21 I was like job grade one, right? So that was the question, who's Tony? What's an EA? What does EA do? Then after that I went on interview with him and it was really, really quick interview, OK. 8:35 Tony's 3-Minute, 4-Question Interview Process Yeah, yeah. Tell us about it. What? What? What? 8:37 Speaker 1 What was it like less than 3 minutes? You just asked me what's your name? What do you do in AirAsia and how old are you? Yeah. What does your family do? And surprisingly, the one that caught me is what does your family do? Because never for once people ask that in a interview question, right? 8:56 Because you would do some research, like what would people ask in? 8:58 Speaker 2 Interview was your 5. 8:59 Speaker 1 Year plan. 8:59 Speaker 2 The usual. 9:00 Speaker 1 Stuff. He only asked that four questions and then the next day I was in London with him. Yeah, I was like, OK, I don't know what's going on. 9:07 Life-Changing Exposure: Two Years with Tony I'm just going to take that chance, take the risk and just go right and that two years with Tony, I really, really changed my life. I learned a lot it He really exposed me right. I get to see a different world compared to me just being that hardworking little girl. 9:25 Just work everyday 1416 hours. 9:28 Speaker 2 What was the first thing that maybe like one example where you realise, oh wow, this is a whole, this is a whole new world for me? 9:34 Speaker 1 Yeah, because I helped him in a lot of things because that time we were still that AirAsia, basically you one person have to do people's job, right? You have to cover everything. So I did name it, understand everything. So I got to meet a lot of high profile people and then of course government officials and stuff like that. 9:57 And I was the one producing like the letters for the Prime Minister and stuff like that. So I really get to see, oh wow, government actually wanted things like this and how do we want things the other way and like the, the negotiations and then the agenda, the the needs and the ones from different parties. 10:20 So that sets up different lenses and perspective. It's not like, oh, it's a greedy or whatever. No, everyone wanted to fight for the benefits of their community, right? So that is the part that I see and another part I see, of course, we went through so many things in that two years. 10:40 I saw the Greece and the perseverance in Tony in how he managed and turned the crisis into opportunity. And this is definitely not like a story or like a fairy tale. I literally see how he he's opportunistic, right? 10:55 He see opportunity differently and he see crisis differently. And that gave me a perspective that I could never have, right, If it's not that positioned. Yeah, yeah. 11:09 Speaker 2 And so from then, we we've talked about how one CEO took a chance on you and gave you an ability to grow. 11:17 From Assistant to CEO: A Journey of Growth Now let's talk about you as ACEO. You know, what has, what has that journey been like? You know, when you were first offered this position, surely, surely as a very young CEO as well, surely that that would have come with a whole bunch of of feelings, maybe even doubts. 11:33 How did you how did you navigate that? 11:35 Speaker 1 I OK, funny enough, let me just rewind that when I was first promoted to become the regional head of implied catering, that was actually the time that I doubted myself because I didn't have the experience in FM BI never run a department. 11:54 I wasn't even a manager, I was just AEA right, an assistant. Then I got promoted to such perhaps the highest positions of a business function and no people skill, nothing right and just. 12:09 Developing People Skills in a Leadership Role No people skills. 12:10 Speaker 1 No, people. 12:10 Speaker 2 Skill even after all that time with. 12:12 Speaker 1 Because with Tony is like the you leave the people skill to him. He will do all the network. We our role is get things done. You know, it's very focused objective get things done. And I learned I learned people skill from inflate Kittery slowly. 12:31 And of course, the first six months in inflate Kittery, I was trying to build relationship with different head of department in different countries because we have 9 subsidiaries, right? You meant 9 HOD, 9 companies, 9 CEOs and shareholders of what everybody wants and your mandates is to standardized. 12:51 Speaker 2 Yep. 12:52 Speaker 1 And centralized and this somehow it's a very sensitive was to a lot of people in organisations because people might emotionally feel that their power was stripped off and the regional team don't understand the need or the local market and stuff like that. 13:11 So and you need a lot of buy in. So I spent like 6-7 months trying to get that buy in and really to push for a change in terms of the entire product offering, the pricing and to really build a brand. 13:26 Transforming Plain Food into a Beloved Brand That was perhaps the toughest part to build a brand out of a plain food, right? It's I, perhaps, I, I guess it's like the toughest mission on there for people to love plain food. And I guess after that, it was in that year, once we did all the changes, the product pricing and everything, I went on taking the mission to rebuild duty free and merchandise. 13:53 And to be duty free in Ally is another tough job because there's so much competitions at the airport and then people got so much time before they board the plane, right? You already went through that journey of like 10,000 offerings with 10,000 discount and us being the last mile of duty free is actually very tough. 14:14 And that strategy was really know the customer and what they want of what at what price that they are willing to pay. And really a lock down that strategy and transform that that business into profit making from year on year loss. 14:27 Speaker 2 I want to ask you on, on this, right, because there's AI suppose there's a, there's a balance of knowing the customer, which therefore means also it's a matter of matter of taste both, both for, for F&B, but then also for your other kind of retail. 14:44 Balancing Data and Taste in Business Strategy How do you balance taste versus data? 14:48 Speaker 1 I think it's, it's partly science, partly art, right Data, of course, it tells you what the markets want. It's like a macro thing. And the hard part is how well are you connected to the market, right? Are you a shopper yourself? 15:05 Like I always tell people, if you want to be in that business, you need to be the consumer and you need to be a neutral consumer and you need to talk to other consumer to know actually what the majority wants. 15:20 So I, I think that is the trick. 50% data, 50% art. It's like a sense, right? Yeah. 15:28 Unexpected CEO Announcement and Full Ownership So other that I went on doing the Santan franchise and then three months later I opened the first restaurant in December 2019. And three months later it was COVID that it locked down. So we officially opened for three months and then got total lockdown for like 2-3 years. 15:44 I'm not sure right, But what a learning experience, right from playing food St. to retail and in scale. And now that I look back, what a journey it, it was a very good learning curve for for me and my team. 16:03 But all I know what I want to say is that you know, from day one until I was promoted, even until today, I never ever take sun time as a job. I always take it as my own business and I rented like how I was running my mum's fruit stall at the Bassem Alam. 16:21 I always take it as it's not about money or title. That's why I never really demand for it. And the story of being announced as ACEO wasn't really discussed with me. I was announced suddenly. 16:36 Speaker 2 Shocked. Why am I not surprised? 16:37 Speaker 1 Right. It's, I mean, yeah. Then the the true story is that one day I came back from DV travel from China. I just got into office in the morning and apparently there was a town hall going on. So Tony was hosting that town hall with all the stuff. 16:53 So I just went to my desk, took my coffee cup usually, and go to Sun Tang Cafe at Riku to try to get my coffee. So I was just walking past the town hall. I think somehow somebody saw me and Tony was like using the mind. I said Katrine to come and said, so somebody call me and I was OK. 17:09 I just go there and sit on the front row. Then he just announced, I want to like promo Catherine to see you. I it was so early in the morning. I wasn't like, Oh my God, I don't know what's going on. But if you ask me that moment, it's, it's more of like a shock rather than like a doubt on myself because I already went through that whole, I think eight years or 10 years of running that business as my own, right. 17:40 So being ACEO or not doesn't really matter to me anymore because I took full ownership. Even though I have somebody on top of me, I still think that this Santan, I, I have full responsibility and accountability. 17:55 So I gave all in to really, really build Santan. Then how would I say I, I, I, there is not a moment that I feel, wow, I deserve it. No, no, because like I said, it's strangely enough, I don't think being ACEO or anything, it's like a glad thing or something. 18:18 Because to me accountability and title, I chose accountability over title. 18:24 Choosing Accountability and Fostering Team Ownership As a leader, how do you then ensure that those in your team also have that same level of accountability? Are there some some top tips in how you raise other leaders to do the same? 18:37 Speaker 1 So yes, I think I, I guess my leadership style is very transparent and honest. I built that business model together with the team, not I built it and then I just casket to the team to do it. So from day one, they already have ownership because they were part of the plan building. 18:56 Everybody agreed that this is the way forward. We think this is right. And then of course, as a team, if we hit Roadblock, what we thought it could happen did happen. We have that togetherness that we can fix it and it's very blessed that in all my chat group, when everyday there are so many things happening, right? 19:20 There's not a single blaming in the chat groups. In all the chat groups, the team just kind of auto complement each other, auto cover each other. And I think it's such amazing culture within the team because they also don't really care about the titles. 19:39 All they care is ownership and accountability. And I think and the company people know that I'm kind of like a free soul. Like you have to leave it to me to drive that and that if I need help, I will scream and shout, right? And I, I think leadership does affect the team. 19:57 My team is also like that. That's why I don't have to monitor them. And they really go all out like work so hard and just to get it. I think everyone took pride. In what we do and what we want to achieve. Hence I don't need to motivate them or anything. 20:12 Partially really, because they were included in building the plants together. It's not like an instruction to cascade to them, yeah. 20:23 What Catherine Looks for When Hiring Talent When you when you we, we just now talked about your interview with Tony. Now let's talk about your your lens and your interview criteria. So in order to build a team that is high accountability. So, you know, on the one hand you've got, you've obviously modelled a certain behaviour and I think that sets the culture for your team. 20:42 But is this something that is that you think can be coached or actually does it require you to hire a certain type of person? And if that's the case, then what are you looking for? If I'm sitting in an interview looking for a job to work for you, Catherine, what, what would you be looking for? 20:58 Speaker 1 I think 2 layers. The first part people department which is HR would have already filtered and shortlisted to make sure that basic skill sets and or Jake is there. And when it comes to my part, actually before it comes to me, if it's a high positions or management ositions, my team as in I'm a team would interview the person before me. 21:19 Yeah. So my team would filter whether this person fits the culture because you like it or not. I also have my blind spot, right? Some things that I think I'm good at actually in the teams of my eyes is not good, right? So they would also filter because they are more neutral in terms of like who fits the culture and stuff like that. 21:36 And when it comes to me, I will do that interview together with my management team also. Then I will challenge some some questions in terms of values. I think values is very very very important. 21:52 Why Integrity is the Most Important Value What are the key values that you look for? 21:54 Speaker 1 I think integrity, I think when when I would try to look for people that are resourceful, integrity, learning speed and respond to feedback and also when things don't go as per your view and your plan, how would you response to it? 22:16 Yeah. So I'm trying to look for people who does not first reaction is to blame. Yeah, because I think blaming and like trying to find faults and keep score is really a waste of time and resources and energy. 22:33 I would love to have people who work as a team player very important and know that we are all not perfect but we are just there to really optimise what we're good at and having people to compliment me and I definitely will not hire people who try to pretend they know and they don't know. 22:53 I think this is super dangerous to the business. I would rather have people that says that I don't know, but give me the time to learn and buy this time I will prove you. Of course, you can't give forever to learn because the business and everybody's has family and everyone's livelihood is on this business right. 23:11 So being a leader, I'm also very accountable to like how much risk and time am I willing to give to an emerging talent? Yeah. And and I think that I'm slowly getting that kind of G's and feel on how much is the, how much risk is it calculated risk? 23:31 Yeah. 23:32 Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, on the point of integrity, right. I mean, personally, that's something that I always look for as well. And so you you touched on one of the examples and this this example of just being very honest. Some of the hires that I've particularly felt strongly about is the ones who were just very forthcoming and who said, you know what, actually, I don't know, that's a good question. 23:49 And I honestly don't have an answer for that. And then they will say, obviously after the fact, like, oh, you know, I thought, I actually thought I really screwed up that interview. And I will say, you know what, oddly enough, that was the very thing that made me think, OK, I think it's time to, it's maybe worth giving you a shot. But what are some other things that you look for to see whether someone has high integrity? 24:08 Because naturally people will bring their best selves, you know, to an interview. So what? What do you? What do you look out for? 24:14 Speaker 1 It's like the interview, right is never prepared and then we just flow with the candidates and to flow into hopefully more on personal life, on how they deal with difficult situations, especially the relational one. 24:30 Yes, because somehow it gets personal. You tend to think that you are the right side and then tend to justify things from your point of view, and that is so easily swayed. 24:47 So I guess to manage a business well in terms of data and science, you need to always make sure you stand in the middle, that you need to take out your emotion and really seize it from a whole granular perspective. Is it really my fault? 25:02 If it is, then I need to improve this, which is absolutely OK. The not OK is is never my fault. I always have the last word. And if you don't agree with me, I want to destroy you. Absolutely. No. 25:17 Yeah. And a lot of people tend to go in that path without them realizing because to them they are just protecting themselves, right? People tend to justify themselves. But I guessed the first thing about improving about integrity is that perhaps I could be the wrong side. 25:37 Just that awareness is already enough, right? And how do you do the right thing? Even no one is watching. This is super important because we cannot micromanage people. It's impossible and it's super inefficient, right? So we will tend to props questions to see are you really doing the right thing? 25:57 We will challenge what you think is right, Is it really right? And see how you respond to it. Yeah. 26:04 Speaker 2 So yeah, I, I think that that's a big one because I mean, ultimately it comes down to also just self-awareness, right? Like knowing when you are wrong. 26:11 The Challenge of Unlearning Impatience as a Leader What are some things that you've had to unlearn? So maybe I throw the question to you, Catherine, what are some things that you have along your journey? Maybe it can even be recent stuff, but what are some things that you have maybe realized about yourself which you've had to maybe unlearn? And then from there, what are you kind of learning now? 26:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I guess being in the environment is forever, fast-paced is forever, Everything is yesterday. I told you a few years ago that nurture the impatient in me that I didn't realise that it wasn't good, right? 26:45 I think being efficient and fast is good, but being impatient is not good. Yeah. 26:50 Speaker 2 How do you differentiate the two things? 26:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, So what Choice communication. This is absolutely something I need to improve because me as a go getter, I just OK, I want this, this isn't this. So of course to to the team that is very close to me, they know me, right? To them, this is the best way. Just tell me what you want. 27:08 But I guess to new people, they they cannot, they get culture shock. They're like, oh, why should talk like that, You know, but your word choice could have somehow hurt people without you realizing. And this is something that I need to unlearn and be better in communication. 27:25 Leading with Clarity Amidst Constant Uncertainty You talked about, OK, like kind of speed, speed also meaning, you know, you kind of want to have control of stuff, but obviously you're also, and I don't think it's just your industry, but I think it's just all industries as a whole. Ultimately, we can have our frameworks, we can have our strategy, but there's so many other forces outside of our control. 27:44 There are market forces, geopolitical uncertainties as well. So, you know, with all of that in mind, what is your, what is your current outlook and what are some of the ways that you and your team are navigating this? 27:57 Speaker 1 For Santan, I guess uncertainty is no longer a temporary thing anymore. It's an operating environment, right? And I don't believe that it's going to end anytime soon. It's going to be just another round of things going on, like the Black Swan event is no longer really a Black Swan. 28:17 So I guessed to me and my team, the things that I do most is really transparency and honesty. I give clarity. I definitely cannot give certainty because the world is so uncertain, right? But the best I can do is clarity what's going on, what's happening, what matters most right now? 28:37 What do we have to stop? Yeah. And then really the annual budget doesn't make sense anymore. You just got to really pivot very fast and have really regular catch up, regular reviewed and move on. 28:53 You know, what is the reversible decision and what is those irreversible 1 And you have to have a person in charge for each every important task and to have a timeline to really come back and evaluate the results and to really tailor a plan for the particular timeline situations or environment and move on. 29:17 And of course, the second thing is care because you like it or not, numbers tells you what's happening, but converse station tells you why it's happening. So listen to the person that is the closest to customers and operation does give you that geez of why is it happening? 29:37 And you can even react faster than the numbers come out because the numbers is a by product of your reaction. Yeah. So that is something that I'm very, very close to my operation manager, right. Every time I say, what's going on, what's going on? Yeah. Anything that you observe differently today and that kind of give a culture to the team as well that they will tell me, hey, something is weird or some sales fly like that, then I can actually pivot my business model and tailor a new business model that fits that environment and that situation. 30:09 And it's literally like COVID open, close, open, close, open, close like that. So I think it's the agility. It's also very important. How flexible are you or how fast can you turn your business? Yeah. 30:24 Catherine's Weekly Meetings for Business Impact So what are some of the structures that you have in place or, or cadences to make sure that number one, you've got the right monitoring, but also secondly that you've got the right conversations as you say. What? What does that look like in a week for you? 30:37 Speaker 1 I think my calendar I only do meeting that has impacted the business and that makes changes. I would definitely do sales meeting. It's very important. My sales meeting is not just with sales people, it also with operation team, right? Because I, I feel like it's interchange and I want to hear from both side. 30:56 And then we make a conclusion together that this is it. Not me saying that you do this, it doesn't work like that. So both parties need to agree I do this. Can you cover like this? And then next week we review again. So sales meeting, brand marketing meeting. 31:14 So I do marketing meeting in the sense that I guess the only thing that could be more sustainance is brand right now because sales is very transaction but brand can keep the business for a longer period of time. 31:30 So marketing meeting is very important to me as well. And also HR is like a short meeting like really just want to know who has what problem, who needs what help in the company. 31:48 Do you? 31:49 Speaker 2 Have a rule when it comes to cash flow? 31:51 Speaker 1 Definitely, I try to build as many cash reserve as possible, but also take a balance, you know, sometimes having too much cash and you don't grow when you need to, when the time is right. It's also a waste of opportunity and it could be very detrimental for your future sustainability in terms of brand survival in the market. 32:12 Building an Authentic Personal Brand in Public So, but at this point, I'm really trying to grow as much cash reserve as possible, yeah. 32:20 Speaker 2 You know, since you talk about brand, you, you've also kind of built a huge personal brand around around yourself, right? And you know, in, in many ways, that's that that's very beneficial to a business. But at the same time, you know, what I really, you know, respect about you is you're, you're so open about your stories. 32:37 But I wonder whether at times this poses maybe challenges for your, your comms or, or brand team. Do they maybe Catherine shouldn't have said that out of the open. Do you do you have these sorts of conversations and. 32:50 Speaker 1 I do, I think it happens very regularly. In the beginning it, it was quite a, a struggle because then you cannot be yourself, right? But soon I realized the things that you think I should say and the things that the market things I they want to hear or they they find it beneficial is very different because the spec perspective of listening is very different. 33:16 If I go on to how a business build a brand, I don't think I would ever say what I say because business always play safe. They want to look good and stuff like that. But the war is so real right now, even though you want to pretend to be perfect, the information is so accessible and available. 33:36 It's not realistic. And I guess the market already know that being perfect is it's quite unrealistic hence being relevance and being able to resonate with your struggle that creates that emotional attachment. 33:56 Hence baby to the business point of view is too much emotion, right? But to consumerist it's real. Yeah, but it's different perspective. No one this wrong, but you can't please the world. 34:15 Speaker 2 And you know, some people might say it's might generalize it as, you know, this is how this is how millennials lead or you know, in the future, this is how Gen. Z leads is different. But actually, you know, as you are sharing that I realized actually I don't think that's so much the case. 34:31 I don't think it's a generational thing because I mean, let's talk about, let's talk about Tony again. I think Tony very much embodies that, right? I mean, I see his, I see his LinkedIn posts. Yeah, Tony, if you're watching his LinkedIn post, they're just he, he just, he just writes whatever he wants. 34:49 And then like riddles with like typos, he just sends it anyway. But I think for me personally, I've always thought that that was very, very refreshing because. 34:59 Speaker 1 It's real. 34:59 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's real. Even if you ruffle a few feathers, you, you know what you're getting. So I think that's, I think that's very, very, very commendable. 35:06 Misconceptions About Catherine: Not a Perfect Leader With you having more of a public profile, maybe a more personal question is what do you think people get wrong about Catherine Cole? 35:15 Speaker 1 100% not a perfect leader. I don't. I'm still learning. All that I do is not. I come out and teach people how to be a good leader. Who am I to teach? I am just sharing my experience. Perhaps right now I want to share more of my mistakes and what I've done wrong, you know, so that we don't repeat that same mistakes again. 35:37 And I want to make that straight that I'm not the perfect leader at all. I'm just sharing my experience to to perhaps help each other and we learn, you know, from each other. 35:46 Speaker 2 What's your biggest struggle and and challenge? 35:49 Speaker 1 I think instead of challenge and struggle, I would say that I'm asking myself a bigger question of can I really create opportunities for emerging and, you know, emerging talents? 36:07 Can I also pursue success without losing my faith, my health, relationship and myself sensed? So that would be something that I focus on right now very much because values to me is very important. 36:25 And I realised that I need the anchor in my life to go on the right path, to make the right decisions, to treat people right. Yeah. 36:34 Finding Anchor: Faith, Surrender, and Dealing with Fame So you touched on your faith and you know, and, and the anchor, maybe tell us a little bit about how your, your faith is guiding some of these questions that that you're asking yourself in this pursuit of this, this, this deeper meaning and legacy. 36:49 Speaker 1 I guess my keyword that I tell myself everyday is faith and faith comes with surrendering. And it's not as surface surrendering in the sense that oh, I don't have to work hard. I just leave it to God. It's absolutely no because God demands excellencies in work in people that you serve, right? 37:08 Just like how you served it. And faith is definitely not God fulfilling the whole long list that I'm asking. Faith is believing in God irregardless the outcome, because of his character, because of he's a faithful God. 37:27 Yeah. So that to me is surrendering. 37:30 Speaker 2 When were you forced to surrender to God? 37:34 Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess because I think I had a lot, a lot of realisations since last year, end of last year till like mid of this year. 37:50 I would say that I guess the fame is something interesting like because it kind of attracts things that you never thought it would be, like this, right? 38:08 Of the things that you have done for years, it seems OK. But after that fame came about, the same thing that you did suddenly is not OK and suddenly is a big thing. 38:23 So and as much as I want to control and like justify, I realized that it is beyond me. Then I realized God is actually telling me that his plan is better than my plan and his will is better than my will and I'm a human, right? 38:48 My wisdom is very human wisdom is not God wisdom. And until the point you exhaust everything you have and the result is still bad and you realize that actually you have to let go and let God. 39:07 And that was the moment I just really surrender. And I don't think fame get into me because I know that my character is not about title positions or anything, but the bad consequences of fame that I never thought that people would attack me and stuff like that. 39:25 It's really, I need to surrender because there's nothing I can do, really nothing. And God is so faithful. Really. God is so faithful that he will preserve you, and He's righteous, right? 39:40 Speaker 2 It was there a particular, I guess a feeling like when you, when you, when you're surrendering to him, a particular feeling or sense where you felt, where you felt his assurance in a very tangible way. And if So, what? 39:55 What was that? 39:57 Speaker 1 I guessed even until today. God is telling me that don't worry, I've been carrying you since you were in the womb. And I'll carry you through the day. So that is something I'm learning. 40:13 And remind everyone out there that, you know, don't be afraid to to admit it's a mistake. And most important is you repent and you change, not just like, oh, sorry, I make a mistake that doesn't carry any weight. Yeah. Yeah. 40:28 Speaker 2 Yeah, and I mean true to what you said about not being about titles. I mean your your IG handle doesn't have your title in it. Most other CEOs would have CEO something you've got a Bible verse. So I think that that's very that's very telling and that's very admirable. 40:44 Catherine's Ongoing Quest: Meaningful Commercial Success I do want to maybe close by asking you what is your current game of impossible right now? 40:51 Speaker 1 Really, it's still that questions like can I build something that can succeed commercially, truly genuinely help people and remained meaningful beyond me? I'm just walking the path faithfully as God leads. 41:08 Yeah, I don't have that. And go like God tells me you do this. No, I don't. But I'm just walking very faithfully and staying in God and let him lead me every day. 41:22 Reflections and Gratitude for Catherine's Journey Well, it was that attitude of surviving each day as it comes, which eventually yielded amazing fruit for you. And you know what? What a privilege it's been to be able to observe your journey from afar now, to be able to hear this story upfront as well. And I'm very sure that that same posture is going to help you to meet that game of impossible. 41:40 And it's going to be one that it's not just going to be beneficial for you to look back on, but I think something that we will all be better for as a result. So, Catherine, thank you so much for being with us on this week's episode. 41:52 Speaker 1 Thank you, Leon. 41:53 Speaker 2 Thank you all for listening to yet another episode of The Game of Impossible. We hope that you enjoyed this one. I certainly did. If you did, we encourage you to like and subscribe. We put up episodes every Friday at 6:00 AM on both our YouTube as well as Spotify, and we also have short form content on both our IG as well as TikTok at The Game of Impossible. 42:12 Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week.