11 Relationship: What is Love Anyway?

Fails to the soul, birthing spirit in the modern world, with all of a bow. And Nicholas Rzynski. This week's episode, Relationship. What is love anyway? It's an interesting one to know where to start with this, because I know this podcast is called Fails to the Soul, so we're theoretically looking at things that are in the way, but I suppose I'd like to emphasize particularly with this one, but all of the topics that we've talked about are not only things that get between us and our souls, emerging into the world, birthing into the world, but they're also, they connect as crucibles for the shedding of the veils. And I think that's particularly true when it comes to love in relationships. Yeah, I mean, I held this topic of Fails to the soul or the individual topics that we talked about in relationship to that central theme. Generally, there are things that can go both ways, so there are things that can be that intensified or reduce the bay length as it were. I'm kind of interested in your proposal that this one more serve others. I mean, we've talked before about how people can perhaps have on their own paths be more intensely involved with one theme or another, and how perhaps in your life, it might be a relationship. We have a mutual friend. A central journey might be health, I think that's the next episode, and mine has been money, so. I just want to put it. Yeah, so obviously I'm projecting into it. No, I just think it's interesting to think about how pretty much all of these topics appear for everybody, but people might be more drawn to one another. It is interesting. And so if there's this whole constellation of topics, all of which are either increasing or decreasing the bay length for us individually and collectively, and then some people are more drawn to some, some people more to others, but to take your positive slant for today, together, humankind covers all of the veils, and we can together through the ones that we focus on, particularly lift them all. I like the sound of that. Yeah, I suppose where I'm coming from is the lot of the veils and by name means all, a created in relationship. And are actually sometimes created from a place of love, and this guided, that may be. So. Well, just to play Devils Advocate. Yeah, just to play. Advocate from minute. So I think you're what I'm hearing is, you know, I'm saying relationship about this is such a positive engine, right? Well, I just want to say that I agree with that. I actually agree with that. So relate everything is relationship, I think. So that's that and perhaps that's one of the things that you say. So when we're talking about relationship and love here, we're typically talking about human intimate relationship. That's correct. Okay. But of course the split well and alleged separation imagined for happen because of a relational dysfunction. So there is a relationship, the source of all the problems. I mean, so. Actually, that doesn't mean that relationship can't be a very powerful positive. In fact, that sort of could also explain why it is. And that in relating, we revisit. That relationship and that relational entanglement and can help under it. That's maybe one of the reasons why intimate relationship can be such a powerful place. Or catalyzing transformation. Well, if we take that as a kind of our starting point, and in a say an intimate romantic relationship, how does that manifest that original split in separation? How could that manifest? And so anywhere I go is. I suppose guilt and shame from a feeling point of view might be the most obvious. So we are asking in what ways does a human intimate relationship recapitulate split well and what ways does a human intimate relationship provide a window into that territory in order to. Again, P.A. So we are called transformation, the devailing as a new word. Maybe it's both things or the same thing. And yeah, and there's no reason we shouldn't look at both. I'm just wondering actually whether I'm certainly for the way my brain works. I'm going the wrong way. If I start with a concrete example in a relationship in relationships in general, and then. Go outwards from there. Maybe we can go outwards from there. There's a tendency. For relationships, I mean, arguably it's a given. That's. They will trigger. Always from charted. In a heterosexual relationship opposite of often the relationship with the opposite gender parent. Without necessarily going back to that primal wound, talking about the primal wound. I'm wondering how this mirrors the original separation. OK, so I think maybe we should just use up the glitch wound. OK. Schema that we've talked about a few times. So while most of modern psychotherapy looks back to early childhood and says that's sort of the only place it could really go wrong. Maybe some extensions go back as far as birth or things that happened in the wound. Here we're saying that wounding that takes place in early and very early life can only take place because this sort of cosmically creative being is participating in some sort of glitch that makes them vulnerable. The only way to do that glitch is split well and the alleged separation they match it for. So when we look into relationships, we could map this onto two different, we could map it onto the glitch and the wound. So in terms of the glitch, we might see the partner as either punitive God. Now, which authority figure that we were battling against or some hell figure from the last few levels of descent after the animations split well. And or we can see the partner as an early life figure or in relation to early life events. So I think one common. So having made that demarcation and let's roll with the early life that you were talking about. One way that we can see the partner is as all the things that the parents want if they weren't wounding or all the elevated idealized qualities of the parents. That we were appreciated as a mild word, but I'd align. is perhaps a better word. So that's in the early glowfates, right? Is that where we want to look to start at the beginning? My space is also that dynamic where it was back between the two sort of. Of course, so I'm just trying to point out some of the landmarks and then the relationships can also relate and travel. So if the relationship gets start traveling between idealization and demonization, then it's a heaven and hell. Or the relationship can be if it's conducted within a framework of understanding like this one and then and in mutual intention and capacity to deconstruct those landmarks or travel on to a new territory, then it can be as you say such a powerful engine. So if that's the starting point say for relationships and then we bring love into the mix, where do you stand on that? You know, all his love thing. Well, some time trying to be a little moderate today. Some reason I'll say it's true and it's not true. Okay. As opposed to if you're being less modular, what you said just curious. Well, I think it can also be a very dangerous romantic delusion. So to stereotype everything in a very extreme way. The cultural idea is everything is matter. The antidote is everything is love. So it's useful. The reality is that we're facing a matter of love mix. And essentially that's why I say yes, I'm so in truth. In real reality, all is love and in the transient dream of separation. Separation is not love. It is separation from love. There is not love. And I think it's important to be realistic about that. I suppose there's also the difference with others, the different types of love. And the love felt in real reality once the veil's a shed. It can be a missing ways, but can be very different to the type of love we might have experienced. We might experience in relationship and romantic relationships. Yes, I think that's true because every romantic relationship is taking place with respect to and in the matter bodies. So inherently that's in the mix. I mean, I just want to say something really important for framing up romantic, romantic human romantic relationships, which is there's a, there can be a tendency to try and find one nurse or non-sapiration through merging bodies. I mean, the very act. I say to you, you can be like, let me push these two bodies, but as close together as they can be. Which, I mean, obviously in a physics sense is impossible. But this way, like only minds can merge, only right, only, only minds can merge. Body's can't. How about souls? Well, I would say souls are already embedded in the, when the oneness of one bit. It's a, only minds can merge and only minds can believe that they're not merged. So it's matter bodies that help minds to perpetuate the illusion of separation. That's why one of the reasons why the sexual drive like pulls bodies together. And in one way is a drive towards union, but in another way, if that attempt is diverted into sort of the merging of the matter bodies, even unconsciously, then it's dissipated. It's such an extraordinary territory. I said more like talking about it more coming into your original relationships. It's the best power for me anyway. Wow, it's so amazing. All these subtleties and nuances. And I really, you know, someone said to me, one said to me that you'll be the last tributal with the red roads in his mouth as the nuclear boss kicks in. So the romantic fantasy for me has been so weirdly intrinsic to my spiritual part, that longing for love. And I've projected that onto people all over the short, frankly. And I should probably rephrase that slightly differently anyway. So. There's something, there is something about the path to God for me anyway. Being through relationship. Right. So, so this is why. You know, we started this episode. This back and forth about things like various topics being places where the vials are thickened and various topics being places where vials are thinned. And. And for every topic. It can be either. And when I'm. It kind of is my tendency to point out the subtle and overlooked thickenings of vials because I think we're at a place in the culture, particularly in spirituality where we're missing those. Right. So I just pointed out this thing about, you know, trying to merge bodies and trying to merge matter bodies and have one mistake that is and how it's really about lines. But equally on the other hand, like the draw to the merging of minds. And dealing with the with the fact of matter and. And all of that. Is just as powerful and positive or can be as. Getting diverted into trying to merge meat sacks is extremely problematic. Just. The clarity statement for me as much as anything. By when you say mind, the merging of minds. Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah, so this is. So the field of. Talking about consciousness with items in there. Is fraught with difficulty. And so mind and consciousness. To related. But distinct things. When I say mind, I'm generally talking about. That aspect of human experience, which is. Which is experiencing. And equipped with cognition. Okay. So. So. So if two minds do merge or. But in that definition, what it wants, what occurs? Well, perhaps Merge isn't the great phrase, become non-saparat. In that non-sapiration, then Merge is possible. Or communion. Yeah, so that longing for communion, that longing for oneness. Certainly for me, I don't know whether I can generalise this out more or not. But this is only creates, I can almost feel my soul being pulled in that direction as a drive. Maybe this goes back to what I'm contradicting myself, it goes back to what you were saying about different people having different arts. But if I feel into relationship, I can feel my feeling, the pizmibedic, which I associate with the soul for me, pulling me towards it. The challenge of it almost feels like I don't like rail challenge, my search for the rail. How is that contradictory, what you said earlier? Well, it's not contradicting, but it's, I suppose it's almost just bringing together what the two of us have both said in some ways. You know, for some people that pull maybe towards money rather than relationships, whatever it might be, the feels. That can be different from the different people. So I'm feeling called towards something, can I try it out with you? Yeah, please do. Okay, so we've kind of been circling in and out and around about relationships, what are they good for? Idolization, demonization, and then a positive, constructive spiritual path and enjoyment of life. Right? And I kind of feel like I'm dragging you down from that, like the glory of relationship into this romantic word and like, you know, even the, there's something particular about relationships. I'm kind of pulling you off track with that, but because I don't think I actually that's not what I think I do think there is something special about them, as I said, to both sides. The light in the dark, if you like. But what I was feeling called towards was was just to create a couple of solid landmarks. So one is relationship in general. And just refreshing sacred attention in relationship as possibly the most powerful modality for. Disappointing investment into the world. So sacred attention as a powerful positive modality and good. Relationship, the souls. Thank you to that. Let's use that one. It's better than my TV. Okay. And then, and then to talk about intimate relationship as a, as a special kind of relationship and. Why is that in what ways can that be even more, more powerful? I mean, you pointing towards almost like an application. That can happen between two people in intimate relationship. Yeah. And I suppose that amplification can go. Either way and anywhere in between. Right. So in all these discussions, there's, there's 10 million positives that we could point to. In an objecting topic and 10 million negatives. And we can get lost in wondering those two times 10 millions. So I guess my call is towards. Following your relationships are this. Particularly powerful unveiling modality. So following that. And then maybe just. Looking at. Over romantic, romanticization. As kind of the shadow side. Yeah. Or. Following the romantic ideal of relationship instead of the. Spiritual actuality, right. Yeah, it looks sent centrally at how and why into a relationship. Yes, or can be so positive and powerful. And just around that, looking at this. We don't want to dodge the. In the reality of heartbreak, betrayal. And all of those things. And the role that they might take. An arguably. Just from an experience point of view. A lot of the time. It's those apparently negative things. And then we can see the lead to the greatest growth if someone really embraces it. So can we just kick off with a, with a brief rehearsal of sacred attention. And then just say something. Probably controversial like it. It will be a great idea or some version of this within every relationship. I don't think that's. And particularly controversial. I think well, not here. It's just not practice. And so, well, so and then when we're moving on to towards intimate relationship, either like. It challenges and strengths and pre-existing. Practice or capacity or. It pulls people into. Some form of sacred attention. And I think that I just want to talk about that version. And I think that I think that I think that I would be able to do that. And I think that I would be able to do that. literally things feel magical and different because reality is magical and different compared to alleged reality. That's a tremendous thing. The opportunity is rather than keeping that special. Rather than limiting that solely to the intimate relationship, this is the only person with which I can do ever well. It's just to find out how I can start to have that same segment of attention configuration with other people. Right there, there's an example of how it can be super powerful and actually reveals the foundations of real reality in this intimate relationship. Incredible attraction that pulls the veil inside. That gift is then shared with everybody else. Then, oh, here we go. This is intimate relationship. This is an incredible gift for the total awakening of the universe. If I see that person as the only person, then it's almost as problematic. I suppose that is where this bumps up against the common interpretation of a monochemous relationship, where the one of the person is special. Actually, for me, it brings up the question. Yes, you can have sacred attention in a. Something about Ego in here. If you've got two Egos relating with each other on an eye, kind of an eye-love-view basis, are they really relating? Can sacred attention even be present in that sort of setting? I think we have to be a little careful about being too absolute. Real reality is never fully absent. If two people are both. So, in a relationship, people are moving around in the positions of their taking relative to each other in a relationship. There is a place in the relationship where they're both trying to be the single God. Then there's not a lot of love going on there. Equally, when one is. It can be very subtle. One is trying to be the single God and the other is being some sort of debased version of themselves in order to enable the other in that position. So, these things are sick vales. I think I would say that I love you place. I mean, that can be places where the vales then and sacred attention is there. Where I would say is sacred attention be stably and continually present in such a relationship. No. One would hope that those clearings where it's more present, become a beacon and the relationship becomes an inquiry into how can we always be there? Which then moves that world of two to the world of one, right? There was another thing that. Can I just switch back to something else that you said and I said? So, it was useless, what's special. And I caught myself starting to say something and then I edited it and then. And then you kind of went back to that same territory in a different way. And this question of specialness is so fraught. It's so fraught. And maybe this is the heart of it. Maybe this is. Because it's kind of where the juice is. There's a connection that I genuinely have with this other person that I do not have with anybody else. It's special. The relationship. And then we can kind of. And then I can kind of spiritualize it and go, "Yeah, but that specialness is just because I'm experiencing sacred attention here because of the pulpit, not anywhere else." And when I experience it that way, you know, everywhere, this person won't be special anymore. Right? That takes us like sparkling rainbows that I'm experiencing with the other, right? To this sort of bland white sort of dour. Oh, look, they're all white. And I think that's a terrible mistake. And my kids when they were very young would hate this. And there's a genuine problem with it. But I think it's more like when sacred attention is present everywhere, everyone's special. Right? It's not that that juice comes out of the intimate relationship. It's that same juice and more is everywhere. Not communicating well, but let me just kind of riff on with this for a little bit. Okay, look. So we have the split well as the origin of all of the problems. Right? And that can be seen as a soul trying to be special. It's trying to be special by having the self-creating character that the ground has. And I'm spec, you know, I'm the one that has that. I look at me I'm special. It's a specialness in that sense. It's extremely problematic. But there's another way in which specialness is divine. So if we go back to the ground extending itself into the one extent itself into the souls. Each soul is a particular foregrounding of aspects of the one, multiple aspects of the one and is, but it's unique. It's special. It's different. Right? But there's a it's also equal in a hierarchy hierarchical sense. Right? Ground one souls. All souls are the same. Love the same by the ground. Right? Okay. So intimate relationship might be the place where we we genuinely connect. There's a genuine appreciation and mutual appreciation of the specialness of soul in a sense. Right? That can be used that the power of that like it's almost like a bit dangerous, but like God appreciating that other soul through this relationship. Right? And the power of that can disseminate, dissipate investment in split world, which is a wrong kind of specialness. Right? And then as that investment in split world passes, then the field opens to all these other equally special souls. Right? So, so I want to try and get out and sort of romantic up. So on the one hand, there's this romantic ideal that I find God but only in the other. But this actual truth in the total awakening of the universe that genuinely like feeling that engagement with another soul might be one of the most, if not the most power, no, it's not the one of the most powerful ways to restore this universe to its place in real reality. And then I suppose to bring it to practical level, you know, you've got a couple that get together and both see each other is very special and one or both of them then find everybody special. What does that mean? What could that mean for the day to day reality of of a relationship? Because I think it's, it can be quite hard if one person say isn't in that place that may mean to be in relationship with somebody who. You know, I suppose I'm assuming someone sort of practicing transcendental meditation for the sake of argument and these, these off planet for a lot of the time and might be basking on this and connecting with with everybody. And more earth bound and that's not to criticize the earth boundless at all. Part of understandably actually would strongly potentially struggle with that. Well, I think there are all, you know, that can be all sorts of problems and. The configuration like the one that you describe there like, you know, who's doing the dishes, but. But could we, could we do maybe a slightly way too above doing the dishes? Yeah. There are no dishes. Um, okay, so, so, so, so love and in love. So who, who, who you say I love you to? Mm-hmm. Right. So one person was only saying I love you to their partner and this other person was just like walking down the street and like just anybody they meet that open to say I love you, meaning, meaning I recognize that relationship and real reality of love between us, right? So for the, for the one who's reserving, I love you. So, so what about that? I mean, well, then, then this is an up, I mean, like, okay, so we've got to just put in a rider, like assuming this is all authentic and not a spiritual facade and not some sort of mind game or, okay. So what then? So there's a, there's a tension between these different places that these two are in. So it's, it's, it's sort of totally up to the, I'm only saying, I think, you know, I'm keeping love. For my partner, it's totally up to that one to, to whether they want to leave the, I mean, I just make it extreme, leave the relationship because that tension is too much or use that tension to pull them through some of their separation from real reality. Now, I want to be really clear. What I'm, I'm saying this relationship is still pristinely monogamous sexually, right? I'm not talking about that at all. And maybe some people find that, in fact, find that bit difficult, like you're only supposed to have sex with the I love you person. So those two things are synonymous versus choosing and, and choosing a monogamous relationship as a particular mode of service to the divine contribution to the total awakening of the universe. But, and, and I mean, I don't think we're going to go that. Maybe we are today. But I mean, that's not to say that monogamy is the only one that can be. So celibacy and various other forms including polyamory can equally be. It's a thing of like what is the right mode of service for the right person. People, many people will not recognize the service concept, but what is right for them? And what most expands love in their experience is another way of saying it. So it's like those two like purpose, love frames, the purpose, choose a service and love, choose a expansion of love. So, I mean, maybe just to try and keep us on track, we can just try and stick with monogamy. I think I'm going to have to talk about it already. So, so I think like that's one example of how in a relation there can be this tension or this polarity because one person is in one place and the other one isn't, right? And so then the tie of the relationship can serve that healing, growth, liberation, but not to put it on, not to make, you know, the reservation of I love you, we are an intimate partner wrong or anything. And I'm just saying, that is a, I mean, if it is a limitation of an openness of heart and again distinguishing openness of heart from openness of body. Yeah. Then, I don't know, this sounds extreme, but that is ultimately something that has to go. The limitation on heart. I suppose I'm drawn to the question of what that would look like. It's a lived experience. What it might feel like in your body, for example, to really be living that. Which bet, I love you to everyone. The I love you only to your romantic partner or the bet were you know, the only to romantic partner person and you're feeling the pain of this other one saying, I love you at well. I suppose two people who are in a space of living in a space of sacred attention, having that an augumous relationship, but also being fully present in the world with everybody. I'm not feeling the word that comes to me is natural. I mean, how I feel. Yeah, why not? But I mean, I'm feeling into it now and it does, it feels natural. It feels very beautiful. It also doesn't feel normal. Oh, no, it's completely not normal, of course. Because precisely because they need to be all of these kinds of reservations and limitations to preserve some of my needs to be special in terms of to be guard, to be special in terms of my wounding needs to be specially taken care of, all of that, all of that stuff. But now, but I mean, okay, so that's great. So we've established this landmark of like that would be natural. But I mean, let's be realistic. Like actually nobody is, that I know of, we've talked about this a bit before, is totally in that place of sacred attention with everybody. So, you know, yeah, for an appeal, I can't think of anybody either. And even if they were with all the humans, right, what about matter? Right? Are they that way with the entire in the place of sacred attention, with the entire matter content of this universe? Now you may say, well, what the hell are you talking about that for? We're talking about like two humans loving each other. So let's talk about sex, baby. Can we? Yeah, don't sing. I'll do you do it if you sing. I'll play the guitar. It's not really bad at the guitar. I find that hard to believe. I think there's some psychological structure there that we're going to have to go into the other time. There is something to get rid of. So this place I want to go to now is like my sort of my go-to place with intimate relationship. And and to many people it'll feel like weird and austere and like not what a love relationship is about at all, which is one of the reasons why I think I wanted to tee this up with this like really like beautiful juicy, sweet, intimate, you know, recognition of the true specialness in a particular meaning of another soul. But then so let's say we we have that recognition and also this pull, because you can have that recognition with a platonic friend. But now unless we also have this incredible pull to to to mutually deval, like altered to unsuperate being with that other. And so then let's say that that's finding expression, that attraction that call that pull, that's finding expression sexually. Now there's a lot of great things that can come out of that. It's actually intimacy in relationship, but I just because what I'm doing here is I'm just just following on that who here is in a position of sacred attention with the entire matter body of the universe to talk about sexual intimacy as a way to drag this entire universe, move drags, very good word. But to energize how like cosmically energize the forward movement of the entire universe back into its place in real reality, which means helping this fallen universal soul to relinquish the density of matter. So we're what scale of energy is needed for the, like the two need to be in their cosmic creator modes, because it's a cosmically creative aspect of the full and universal soul that's not by itself, but as a primary energizer of the density and randomness of the matter field. So now we have a sexually intimate relationship where one partner is being the divine masculinance in both partners and the other is being the divine family that is in both partners temporarily in the act of sexual intimacy. They give, essentially they give those aspects of themselves to the other temporarily to be returned fully and cleanly at the end of intimacy, of that form of intimacy. And then in that configuration, there's this huge polarity, this is the polarity actually that's underneath sexual attraction, that this is the potential of achieving this configuration. There's a tremendous polarity because this cannot persist forever. Like if I was only my divine feminine forever, I would be, all my only my divine masculine forever, I would suffer forever because I would be incomplete. I mean that can't go. It has to be restored. Everyone is, every being is, is, is whole and one. So creates this tremendous sort of energy there. Now, now what do you do with that? I mean, you can do anything with that. It's sort of fine to a degree, using it to hurt other people. Not the most constructive use of it, but I want to talk about a different use, which is, you know, so you can devote. You can. I'm not saying that this is a spiritual imperative. I just want to point this out as, as one part of the contribution that a loving intimate human relationship can give to all the reality, one can devote that energy to the total awakening of the universe. And it's, it's particularly powerful because matter bodies are engaged in this thing, which is the awakening of matter. So this is sort of exquisite tender sensitivity towards the matter bodies involved as, as both carriers of the fall and portals to the real awakening, total real awakening of the universe and then the re-entering to real reality. And then the spiritual psychological material configuration of that relationship is in this extraordinary place, taking into account all of those aspects and dimensions and glitchings and woundings and everything. And yeah, despite and because of, because of, right, all of that, being this tremendous gift to the first purpose of this universe, the first purpose of this universe is total awakening. The second purpose of this universe is then simply to create lovingly as all other universes do. So I just want to get like the spiritualization of loving human intimacy can be a sort of monotone, dulling down to, oh yeah, like we're all god, or, which is, I mean, okay, I mean, there's some, it's a bit juggie. I mean, okay. Okay, that's just, that's not my personal preference. My personal preference is with another one. Again, it comes back to the specialness, right? So there's this false specialness and then this specialness of recognition of subtle, which can also happen platonically. And now there's, I know, here's a third special, there's a special gift, right, that can be given in sexual intimacy. Interesting. I don't know. I've gone to the three centers. I mean, the way I'm imagining it is visualizing it, the coming together of masculine, feminine, within energies, within a relationship. That's kind of almost talking about it feels like the breath. So it feels quite horizontal. And I'm all towards anyway, I'm sorry, I just had an evil evil, when Oliver said, feels kind of horizontal. But I'm also sure this is no better. I'm also wanting to talk about vertical. I'm just going to say you need to spice it up a little bit in the bedroom if it only is horizontal. Anyway, keep going. Yeah. But in terms of the three centers, so if you've got the wheel center in the belly, heart center and the mind and alignments in the vertical, now attraction can often be in one or two or a combination thereof of the center of the center. So I mean, if we assume that loves involved, then the heart centers involve, but a couple might be attracted from the belly, from the wheel center and the heart. And that might be a very intense sexual relationship, very grounded, very earthy. Another couple might be attracted from the mind center and the heart. And that can be very transcendental. It can also be incredibly hard to ground. So it might, I mean, in an extreme, it could be quite a sexual relationship, maybe more of a friendship or an intellectual body up, I've fallen under the bed of a way of doing it, even though they can be a very strong love there. And maybe there is a relationship where all three centers connect and two people can come together in that aligned space. But also then the role of relationship showing where deficiencies and strengths might be as well. Right, and I want to name another variant in that. So it's, so the meeting is in the heart and the center of gravity of one being is in the head and the center of gravity of the other being is in the belly. And you could say that is a way in which sort of heaven and earth can meet in love in the heart. Right. And that is now, let's just, alchemicals, not the right word, because I'm, well, I guess we could go into a whole huge discussion about what alchemical means. But again, it's so if you look at that like heaven and earth coming together, what's actually involved in that? Heaven and earth coming together is the separation between heaven as real reality and earth or the universe of form. Right. The separation between those two, which is the dropping out of this universe, out of the ocean of universes, that separation is disappearing because heaven's always in and behind everything. Right. So heaven and earth coming together in that relationship, if that's actually happening, is that some of the oomph is being taken out of split world, which is the fact that it's driving the separation in the first place. So as those two come together as they meet, we're talking about sacred attention earlier and coming together in that space. Is that a given two people coming together as heaven and earth to create that? No, not at all. I mean, that's the point. So accepting that we will have our own various mutual investments in glitch and maybe wounding depending on how much psychological work you've done. Like all of that is going to rub up against each other, right? And the two, so then there's going to be a version or attraction. Either way, depending on the devotions and capacity of the two people, a version and/or attraction can result in various different relationship styles and some of those sometimes are I wanted to say, "Anambiguously constructive." Let's say that. "Anambiguously constructive intimate human relationships that might last a lifetime or several lifetimes." Let's go on to the question, "What does the world need?" Relation. Tipping in relation to matter. Well, I think one of the interesting polarities in our relationship is a tentacle right to the psychospiritual to the split well and maybe leave out the earthy human aspect source. I mean, relationally generally, I would say what's needed is some dawning, glimmering orientation to the total awakening of the universe as a compass or pointer. So, that may sound like, wow, that's an abstracting esoteric. Let's do the other end, what's needed is a lot more attention to early life psychological issues. So that, like, right now, let's say we turn that compass on, right? Everyone oriented towards the total awakening of the universe. What would be our joint capacity to enact movement in that direction? Very little because that's because all the early life God hates me. Parents hate me and parents are the stand-ins for God, right? So it works like that. We can just be stuck between these two. The movement towards total awakening is the movement towards God and the primal wounding and the parents are seen as the God stand-ins, that's an aversion to or wanting to distance from God. So I think generally, relationally, those two things, orientation to purpose and healing of early life. So throughout today, we've been doing the stance around the intimate relationship can be it and authentically beautiful, life-enhancing, spiritually pristine, cosmically constructive thing, or whether it's just a romantic ideal, right? Is that a wiping special? As a romantic idealist, I'd say yes, it's definitely real. There we go. So if we had those first two, right, more healing of the early life and the greater awareness of the compass and direction for this universe, then maybe what we would have would be the flowering of that kind of relationship. It's sort of as the norm rather than the extremely, perhaps, vanishingly rare. I wouldn't have shouldn't say vanishing rare, I wouldn't have just talked about my life. But in humankind, in humankind as a whole, the flowering of a field of such relationships. There's a feeling about almost like the move away from relationships as a, this sounds a bit cynical, but sort of a practical agreement in some ways to a commitment to communion and divine, and, yeah, realization. There's a real beauty in that. For more information about working with Oliver Baum, either one to one or in groups, go to www.OliverB Baum.co.uk. That's www.OliverB Baum.baum.co.uk. And for more information on working with Nicholas, please visit www.liveyourdeepestself.com. And for more on Nicholas's work in science and science and spirituality frontier, please visit the Center for Dialogue in Science at www.cfdis.com. That's www.lettac.f.d.i.lettas.com.