109) How this Founder is Creating Solutions, Not Just More Stuff with Karen Poirier of Embrago

I truly believe that slow fashion can be capable of actually providing better options in every sense of the word than fast fashion if we are intentional about it. Specifically, one of the themes of this Season of the Conscious Style podcast was making slow fashion so irresistible that it becomes inevitable. And this episode ties back to that idea. If you've been a longtime listener, you might remember my episode with sustainability consultant Selena Ho, and I'll link that episode if you haven't tuned into it already, where Selena spoke to how sustainable fashion needs to also be useful and wearable, otherwise we've just made sustainable junk, as she called it. Selena also spoke to this idea of fashion founders thinking about addressing a problem or addressing a real gap with their brand and their products. We often think of fashion as just aesthetics, but it is so much more. The clothing we wear is our second skin, and as our needs evolve and as our lifestyles change, our clothing can help us meet some of those gaps in what we're feeling. It's not just the appearance of a garment that makes an impact, like an impression we want to give or the confidence boost that we want. Those things matter, but also the fit, the comfort, and the fabrics can have a literal impact on how we feel during the day. And in some cases, can even have implications on our health. So with that context, I'm excited for you to hear the story of Karen Poirier, who is the visionary designer behind the sustainably minded, slow fashion brand, and brago. After years of managing a fuller bus size through the changes of pregnancy, breastfeeding, and midlife, Karen dedicated herself to developing a bra alternative that supports overall health and comfort without compromising on style. Her patented body-responsive fit system uses a new approach to built-in bus support that ensures a perfect fit, and in brago's designs are crafted to be versatile and are ethically produced in small batches from organic cotton and high-quality materials. Karen founded this brand after being frustrated by the lack of actually comfortable and supportive undergarment options for fuller-chested women. When she didn't find an option that met her standards, she set out on a several-year journey to create one for herself and eventually her brand. Now, her customers say things like, "I've never felt more beautiful and free at once, and this is the first time in my life I can actually wear a top completely bra-less." This to me is what good fashion should be, and what I hope the future of slow fashion is. It's about making slow fashion options an absolute no-brainer. The time to produce slow fashion is spent on the craft, yes, and that is so important, but also, can we use it to be making a genuinely better product that people want to wear all the time, that they want to keep forever because it is just that good? It's meeting a need, a gap, that other garments that fast fashion cannot bring because the fast fashion system doesn't allow for the amount of time that it takes to create products that good. Not only the quality, not only in construction and materials, but also how good it feels or how big of a need that it really can address. So, in this conversation, we are talking about how fashion is rarely focused on actually fixing problems for real people and how some products are actually creating more problems for even the wearers themselves. Just talk to a foot doctor about high heels, and Karen also shares what's wrong with most undergarments today, hint it's not you, it's the clothes, and the potential health implications. Plus, we're talking about the often overlooked layers of technicality to good fashion and how undergarments can really be a mental load for women and how Karen is hoping to change that. So, it's a juicy episode that covers a lot of ground, I hope you enjoy it. Before we get started, I wanted to share two resources, though, to dive deeper. One, if you're not already part of my free Slow Fashion Saturday newsletter where I share additional content on Slow Fashion for free, you will definitely want to join that. You can sign up at consciouslifeandstyle.com/subscribe, and the link is also going to be in the show notes. And then, if you want to connect with other conscious fashion founders like Karen and be in a community of values aligned professionals who get it, and be able to access expert resources that'll save you time and accelerate your sustainable fashion business, join us inside of the Conscious Fashion Collective membership. You can learn more about the CFC membership at consciousfashion.co/community. That link will also be below. Alright, now let's get on to the show. Karen is starting us off with her Conscious Fashion Founder story and why she founded Embrago. The reason I founded Embrago was I was kind of entering Paramanipause, and I had a closet full of beautiful clothes that I had loved wearing, and suddenly nothing fit the same way anymore, and nothing felt right anymore. And I was also having issues, health issues, that were made worse by years of wearing full support bras, like tight underbands and digging shoulder straps. And so, with the weight changes and weight distributions, suddenly everything kind of came together, and I just started having a really tough time with my bras. I always wore full support underwire bras because I was a full cup size, and I hadn't really had an issue with it up until this point, but everything came together and it was starting to get really uncomfortable to the point of painful, and together with the clothing not really fitting right and the bras not feeling right, I just started looking for an alternative. But again, it's tough because I was getting older, you know, my body was changing, my style was changing, and I was really having trouble finding what I wanted. So, I set about designing an alternative that would meet all the criteria I had, which is I wanted it to be comfortable, I wanted it to be very supportive, and I wanted it to be stylish. And mostly what I found, you know, traditional bras were very supportive, but often not comfortable for the reasons I just mentioned. But bra alternatives that I found on the market, there was always something that was like a compromise. So, if they were supportive and they offered shaping, then they were usually in the shape wearer family, and they were really tight and constrictive and like synthetic nylons and that kind of thing. If they were comfortable, like in the athleisure family, then they tended to not be very supportive or supportive in the wrong way. It wasn't the profile I wanted, if you know what I mean. So that's what set me out, you know, starting to design an alternative myself. And along the way, I didn't really know a lot about the bra market up until that point, and I learned so much on that journey. It was a long journey, it was much more complicated than I realized at the start, but I learned a lot about the bra market and why things are the way they are. And I think one of the main things about it is it's very traditional, and it hasn't changed a lot. And it's a circular thing because there's the industry and then as people go to school and become designers and lingerie designers and they learn about the industry, they learn the traditional ways. And I think coming at it with a kind of beginner's mind was something that helped me see a different way. Yeah, and I love that you put it that way, because I was thinking about how you are really solving a problem, and I feel like this might come from the fact that you came at this from outside the industry. Do you think that helped with building a really customer-first mindset with Embrago is the fact that you did come from outside and you weren't trying to fit the mold of what already exists, but you were maybe more willing to take a risk? I'm curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, I think that's definitely true, and I also had in this case maybe an advantage of not knowing how to approach the whole thing, because I had sewing experience. I had done a lot of sewing as an amateur. I never had professional training, but very traditional training. My mother sewed for our family and taught me. So I had made clothes for myself for years. I had sewn clothes and costumes for my kids when they were young. So I was pretty accomplished with the skills, but I also had a feeling that designing something like this was going to be a lot more complicated than I expected. So while I didn't have professional training, I did reach out to a coach and explain to her what I was hoping to do. She was an industry veteran, so she had all the experience in pattern making and draping. And so it was kind of that combination of me coming in with a vision for what I wanted. And then it wasn't an obvious or easy solution, but she was able to sort of help me figure out a way that it would work while also making it something that is practical to sew as well, if that makes sense. Yeah, right, because that knowledge, of course, is necessary to actually develop the product, but maybe just having that mindset of coming at it where you were more viewing what you were creating as a would-be customer of that product rather than trying to make it big as a designer. Would you say that's an accurate assessment or am I off on that? Oh, yes. Yes, that's right. That's absolutely right, because nothing was further from my mind when I started than starting a brand or a line of clothing. This was just something that it was to solve a problem, like you said. And I thought at the time it was just my problem. I couldn't find anything that was what I was looking for, and I thought, maybe it's just me, so I'll just figure out if I can make something like this. And that was the seed that started it, and then it kind of snowballed, because my goal was that I wanted something that I could wear anywhere that would look put together and well-dressed and that I could wear to work or lounging at home, but wanted it to be super comfortable. I wanted it to feel, I didn't want to have to think about it. I didn't want to feel it, basically. And that's a tall order when you have a large bust size, because you're conditioned to believe that you have to feel a very, very snug underband around your rib cage in order to be dressed. And I feel like it is so important that you're sharing your experiences on this, your story with this, because a lot of these sizing fit and comfort issues that so many of us experience in the undergarment and even apparel market, people can start to think that it's something wrong with their body, and they have to change their body rather than challenging how those clothes are made and sized and the whole sizing systems around all of these things. And so I know you've done a ton of research on the bra industry, both in your personal experience, trying to find something that would work for you, and then the years and years of product development you've done, because when we spoke earlier, I think you said it would took like three years to find the right factory who could actually do this. So I know you've spent a lot of time researching and making this happen. So I'd love to get your perspective on what the state is of the bra industry today, like why are the current options failing us? Yeah. Well, you said something there that is really key, and I think is part of the problem, which is that because it's so difficult to find something that fits well and that feels good, women tend to think that it's their body is the problem, right? And based on the state of the industry, they're not wrong, because the industry isn't designing for them. It isn't designing for their body. It's designing for a very specific set of criteria. And there's nothing wrong with that set of criteria, and it works for a subset of women, but it's just really not designed to accommodate an organic body, which is what we have. And I think ultimately that's the bottom line, because we are never the same size. We are never one size for any length of time. We are a different size in the evening than we are when we wake up in the morning. Our body is breathing, moving, eating, drinking, the state of hydration that our body's in, whatever's going on with our hormones. Our weight and our size can fluctuate enormously, even day to day, not to mention week to week, month to month, decade to decade. And I think that this idea that you have a bra size and that you're wearing the wrong bra size or the right bra size is a fallacy. You are not one bra size. And I think everybody knows that intuitively. That's why we all have different sized bras in our drawers. Every woman knows that sometimes that one bra is going to work or it's not. And so that, I think, that's my perspective on it anyway. And I came at it with this very organic perspective, thinking that, well, like anything in nature, it's never the same. So how can I design something that will work with that organism, with our bodies, and change the way they change and do it in a compassionate way that's not going to be constrictive or painful or lead to the kinds of head games, I think, that happen with so many women, especially when it comes to fashion, which is, we're very cruel to ourselves and to each other about how we look, what we weigh, and why doesn't this fit me right. And we're very quick to turn it inward. And that's not really our fall, it's just the conditioning. And so my idea here is just that if we could design the clothes better, if we could design the clothes to change with us as our bodies change, which is expected and normal and good, then we'd be a lot happier. Yeah, totally. It's so well said. And I've never heard it in those terms of, we have an organic body, but I love that term around it. We are organic and we're going to fluctuate. And I think that is something that is missing, there are certainly exceptions from the slow fashion space when we talk about quality over quantity, longevity, keep your things longer. But also sometimes things just simply don't work for us anymore, size wise. And could there be a way of designing garments and undergarments that actually can transition with us a little bit, because I think we do assume, especially bras are going to be very constrictive and can't really fluctuate with us. So I know that you are quite passionate about the impacts of having such highly constrictive bras from your own experience. And I think we can all feel that it's uncomfortable. But what else should we know about the impacts of these super constrictive bras or garments? What did you experience and what did you maybe learn in your research? Oh, there's so much. There's so much and we just don't tend to think about it. And in fact, I didn't even learn about it from the scientific standpoint until probably within the last year or two, even though from the outset, again, intuitively, I knew this didn't feel good on my body. And this is something that I try to talk to every woman I meet about, we're told in so many other ways to listen to our body and be our own self-advocates. But when it comes to constrictive bras and shapewear, we don't listen to our bodies. We listen to what we're told by the "experts" about how things should feel, even if our body is screaming and saying this does not feel good, this doesn't feel right. So the reason that it has such impacts on your health is that so many vital organs and organ systems of the body come together in that area of your chest. I just did a really interesting series with an OBGYN who specializes in paramentopause. And there's your rib cage, your lungs, your heart, your nervous system, your lymph system, your stomach, actually. A lot of people think of their stomach as lower down, but actually your stomach is right where that bra underband hits in your torso. And then more and more research is coming out every day about things like the fascia, and your fascia that holds your muscle tissue together. And there's even something called interstitial fluid, which is very vulnerable to compression. And this is something that carries really important blood cells, immune cells, all kinds of cell information throughout your body. And if it's constricted or compacted in any way, it can't work correctly. So there are just all these different things. So what that means is you're wearing a tight bra day after day. Sometimes some people wear them 24 hours a day, which just doesn't give their body a chance to recover at all. But day after day, year after year, decade after decade, it's probably 75% of your life you're spending in a bra at least. So over time, whether it causes or just exacerbates these issues, for me, what was happening was I had terrible neck and shoulder and upper back pain. Yeah, I worked at a computer for most of my career, and everybody knows that that's not good for our upper body. But I was also developing shoulder grooves, which was very upsetting to me because it made me feel like my grandfather, not old enough to look like this. But when you have a fuller bust and it's just over time, that's what happens. So I had the musculoskeletal issues. I had the aesthetic issues. I had issues with heart palpitations. I found out that even that can be caused by tight bras. I didn't know that. I had never known that. I had stomach issues. And how did you find that out? How did you make that connection? Because I've never heard that either. So where did you even hear about these things? I started doing research. I'm trying to think when... I think a lot of it came up when I started talking to OBGYNs about and doing more research on paramedopause because, as you may know, as a lot of people know, all kinds of really weird, bizarre health issues can kind of pop up in paramedopause. And women get very worried that something's terribly wrong. And it turns out it can be hormone related. And one of those symptoms is palpitations or arrhythmias. And it's not to say that constriction is always the cause of those things. But this was something that I learned from a physician first mentioned it. And then I did some research and there are studies out there that show, in fact, constrictive, tight constrictive clothing, bra bands can cause or exacerbate cardiac issues and can even mimic more serious heart problems. Because it's pressing on all these key arteries and veins and the whole system. Wow. And I think when we think about fashion causing literal pain, we often think about the footwear. But certainly the bras, too. And there's so many elements there. And I think about it through a business lens of, I think every good business should solve a problem, otherwise, what is the purpose behind it? And maybe not always directly a problem, it also can be bringing joy to people. And you know, but it should serve a purpose and a lot of times that comes through solving a problem and solving a pain point. And I think there is a lot of opportunity for slow and sustainable fashion, right? If we want to create higher quality things, it's not just about the material and the construction and all those things matter. But also, can we think a little bit more about the quality of someone's experience with that piece? I was just speaking with someone in my German class. This woman came with a like a boot on her foot, like it looked like she had broken something and I was asking her about it and she said, "No, I didn't trip. I was just wearing wedges all day and basically now she needed to wear a boot." Like, her foot was that injured from the shoes. And it's just madness to me that what we go through for fashion and it has to be better than this. What we're wearing is literally causing health issues. That is not okay, right? And somehow we accept it as normal. Yeah, or we don't even make the connection. I think that's the scarier thing to me is like you said with shoes, we do make the connection. There's a little bit of awareness when it comes to like pants, right? There's sort of that whole thing about wearing forgiving pants. But the reality is that any of those kinds of constrictions that mean your body can't work the way it's naturally intended to, cause real issues. And like I was saying with the shoulder grooves, right? We think of that as just an aesthetic issue and we think, "Oh, this is so ugly," right? But think about what's happening to your body inside there, right? It's compressing all the nerves that lead to your shoulder and your arm and to your spine, right? Back and forth. So it's significant and it is kind of astounding that we've never really thought about that. And to your point, I think you're right. We should think about the experience of wearing the clothes as much as if not more as how they look, you know, what that means for our health and well-being. Yeah. Cause are we gonna wear this thing, right? It might be very durable, but if we're not wearing the thing, then how good is that I'm now gonna go out and buy a new shirt or pair of shoes or pants or whatever it is because I'm not wearing what I have. So it's really important. Yeah. I do think that it's time that we start paying more attention to what our clothes are doing for us. We're looking for us or against us. And you know, I think with better design, we can create clothing that is not just accommodates and covers and dresses our bodies, but also helps promote our health and well-being so that it can almost take care of us just as we take care of the clothing. I love that. That's beautiful. And you are really passionate about serving the underserved woman by the fashion industry, who is not getting what she needs out of her clothes to function in day-to-day life, like clothes are necessary to function in society. Like this isn't superfluous as it often is, especially if we use the word fashion. And I, I like the word fashion, but I can see that a lot of people don't resonate with it because we think of the fashion weeks, the designers, but really we're just talking about this industry that makes the, the clothes, the accessories, the undergarments that we wear on a day-to-day basis, that the textile industry, maybe we can, we can call the apparel and textile industry. Garmin. Garmin industry. Right. Right. And it's, again, I don't think it gets the respect it deserves because it's extremely hard to do it well, you know? And I think, but what, what I do think has happened, there's also these economic forces at play and the fact that so much garment production was, you know, the garment industry in the United States was just decimated, I guess it was back in the 80s or so when everything was sent overseas, you know, a lot of the, not just economically did that industry disappear, but people's understanding and valuing of the skill and the craftsmanship and the technicality that goes into producing a really good quality garment, that also kind of disappeared. And I think that's one of the things that is so great about the sustainable fashion movement is that it's bringing back that understanding and it's, it's, it's kind of irrational when you think about it because we have a great appreciation for other artisanal crafts, right? You know, woodworking, say, or, you know, furniture or art or glass or cooking, even, you know, like we, we understand that it's a mix of skill and art. But a lot of times we have this mental block when it comes to clothing, like you said, we just think of clothing as it's like in a different category or something. But yeah, I think that, I think that we need clothes that work as hard as we do in our lives. You know, that's another, you know, the versatility factor is another really big thing for me because, you know, and I know it's not just me, it's, it's almost every woman I know. We have complicated lives and nobody wants to have to pack a duffel bag every morning because, you know, they've got the gym, then they've got the office, then they've got an event, and then they've got, you know, something else. We ought to be able to wear something to multiple events and look put together and appropriate without having to change outfits and, by the way, change bras three times a day, right? Like who has time for that? That's so true. Like every outfit change also then requires a broad change, which is, just adds another layer to think about. And yeah, like the mental load that a lot of women carry, it's just like, okay, there's one extra thing. The mental load, that's the thing, right? Because we live in this society where everything else is adding to our mental load all the time, right? And you know, this is an area where we could, we could improve it, you know, but we just, we need to sort of like pay attention to it and then realize, like, hey, we should, I think, you know, we should demand more here. Yeah, completely demanding more from the clothes and that are in our closet and I think elevating the standards that we have when you were talking about this perception that clothes are different, right? We see this race to the bottom. How cheap can we get a t-shirt, you know, and it really has become a commodity and that is a shame and I do see, like, so this is going to sound totally different, but I'm going to tie it together at the end, I promise. I have been taking ballet classes again, I grew up taking ballet and I've come back to it now as an adult, but there's so, there's so much artistry. Like I read, like even where your head goes is a technique and I formerly had taken like these like pure bar classes, you know, these like bar exercise classes and there's nothing wrong with them, you know, it's a fun workout and everything, but I, it just feels like a completely different experience to take a ballet class where there is these hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition and development of the techniques and everything has a reason. Your bar isn't just for the workout, though it certainly is, but that it's all connected to then how you do the jumps, how you do the turns and on and on and I've just been thinking about this artistry and how that relates to fashion, what we see, right, just, okay, that's just going to be in polyester because it's cheaper, well, and it's more efficient, right, it's faster to do it this way, to skip that step, but why are sweaters made from a different material than a summer dress? Like the material serves a different purpose. Why is the construction that way, why, like there's a purpose behind everything and there's like deeper layers to it and I feel like, you know, I understand that we're not all going to all understand all the deeper layers to everything that we interact with in the world and for some people clothes and fashion occupy a very, very tiny piece of the pie of their brain, but at least in the industry, at least as professionals or entrepreneurs in this space to think about that and communicate what we can, but there's just so much more to close. Oh yeah, I think your ballet analogy is beautiful because it's the combination of technicality and artistry and it is an art and it's beautiful, but underlying that is extremely technical work, right, and I think that's exactly how good clothing should be too. The beauty of an object like that when you have something that is beautifully and expertly made that just performs and is a beautiful thing to look at, like that's a joy, you know, and that's, I don't, I think you're right, most people don't think about their clothing that way and I think that's where sustainable fashion has such an opportunity to really change the mindset from that, you know, commodity focus like look how cheap I was able to get this thing into, you know, into really treasuring and valuing the work that went into an object, the technique that goes into it and why it works as well as it does. And I think that that really resonates with people. I think people are ready for that. I think a lot of what's happening in the clothing industry, it reflects a lot of what's happening in our society in general and in the world, which is just, it's just everything all the time more and more and more and, you know, the fashion industry is built on new collections all the time, so people buy more all the time and there's a trendy color so you have to buy something new and it's exhausting when you're also, you know, when you're talking about mental load and, you know, if fashion isn't your day to day vocation or avocation if you're just a person who has a job and a family and things they have to do every day, it's another, it's another item on that mental list to be like, well, I'm also supposed to look great and be stylish and be trendy. And I think a lot of people are ready to get back to a place of less and better. Yeah, I just want to throw in that blazer when I have a presentation or a work meeting that and I know I'm going to look good in that blazer or I know I'm going to feel good in that workout top or I know I'm going to be warm and comfortable and look put together in that sweater. Like, I love that I like that is so satisfying to just even it's a it's comforting to know that you can rely on this piece in your closet. Like I actually find it challenging to shop now because I'm like I have such a high standard and I and that's hard to find. Yeah. Exactly. And I want to bring that point back to Imbrago because I want to talk about why you chose for example to use organic cotton and not, you know, 100% polyester or where what we are often, you know, seeing with bras, especially supportive ones like what were some of the choices that you made in your product development? Yeah. Well, it was also a combination of factors, but ultimately, you know, the big picture here is that I do believe in investing in quality and in the beauty of natural things. And I also kind of believe in the, you know, in vibration energy and and they've actually, I don't know how they studied it, but they've studied it and found that, you know, natural fibers like cotton and linen have a higher energy vibration. Fibers like polyester and synthetics have very not just chemically toxic effects, but also energetically toxic effects. So you know, all of that, some people would would hear that and just be like, well, that's ridiculous. It's just fabric. But previous guest had a MacDee, I talked about that MacDee and Muhammad of the Fabric Alchemist. Oh, I love that. In an episode that Stella did. So I love that. I love when things come up several times in the podcast. It's really like, oh, I need to look more into that. Right. So to me, it's about it's about this combination of of peace and wellness. And so what you were talking about, like when you when you know you have this go to peace in your closet, that you will feel good and look good. And it just it simplifies your life. It removes, you know, many stressors from that mental load. And we all know mind body connection, right? When your mind is healthier and happier, your body is too. So it all works together. It's all connected and symbiotic. So I very much look at Embrago as a way as an investment in wellness. It certainly is for me and both physical and mental wellness and well-being because, you know, you're wearing natural fibers. So, you know, the beauty of cotton is that it keeps you warm when it's cold out and it keeps you cool when it's hot out. You know, there's so much attention, especially in the active wear space on, you know, moisture wicking fabrics. And that's a really interesting thing when you dig into the science, the fiber science behind that. But, you know, the fact of the matter is wicking is not always a good thing. And particularly if you live in a hot and dry climate, you don't want your moisture wicked away, you know, like you're trying to hold on to your hydration and your body moisture. So there's just a lot of assumptions, I think, that people have about clothing and they undervalue how good clothing can make them feel, like how much better they can feel wearing something that feels good against your skin, that doesn't itch, that doesn't make you sweat, that doesn't make you smell. I mean, even that, like so many synthetics are just, as anyone knows, who's worn them, they, you know, if you sweat in them once, then they stink. And that doesn't happen with cotton. And one of the things that customers have told me, and they'll always come to me sort of like secretly, they'll be like, you know, I don't wash it very much. They're like, I had a customer who worked as a lunch lady and she wore it all five days of the school week before she washed it, because she's like, it doesn't smell at all. I don't have to. And so, you know, that's just this cascading, it's all this cascade of positive things that come from that. So you feel better, you're mentally more at peace, you're washing it less, you don't have to dry clean it, and, you know, all of those things, and it's just, it's sustainable across every measure, and that's what I love about it. Yeah, because I think also it doesn't get talked enough about in the sustainable fashion space is just how big of an impact washing our clothes has, like if we're keeping clothes for the long term, actually the impact of washing, especially if you're dry cleaning, but even washing and definitely drying, that can be like larger impact in terms of water and carbon emissions than even the production of it, depending on how long that garment was in your closet and how much you're washing it. So that is also an element to think about, and certainly I'm not a fiber scientist, but I can just speak to my personal experience and want to plus one on that, like my polyester shirts that I've had from years ago or brought second hand, I can only wear them once, and I mean, I have to wash some, like I have like a wool sweater that I literally will wear 20, gosh, maybe even 50 times before I wash it, and it sounds gross, but it literally, it doesn't smell, and so even when I'm looking second hand, I will, I even try to look for natural with second hand, and so, and looking for that organic cotton active wear and things like that, so I feel like that discussion is growing quite a bit, but I love to speak about the benefits for people's everyday lives, right, right. And for me, as I mentioned, it's been, it's just been great because I, you know, I running businesses, managing a family, managing a home, and like day to day, I never know what I'll be doing, like I might be sitting in front of my computer all day, or I might suddenly be, you know, running into business meetings in town and doing family related things and running all over the place, and it's just so wonderful to know I can just put something on in the morning and, you know, swap out a jacket, you know, swap the jacket for a sweatshirt, swap the sweatshirt for a cardigan or whatever, and not have to like strip down and do a whole outfit change and a whole recalculation, because when it comes to the bras, I really feel like there's all this mental calculation that goes into bra and outfit, because of course, there's bras for different things, and there's t-shirt bras, and there's lace bras, and there's, you know, all these different things, so you're, you're always figuring like, okay, well, will this bra work with that thing, and, and when you're full or busted, there's always, you know, you're always struggling with the fact that things aren't big enough on the top, so, you know, you have to wear the bra that, you know, makes you smaller if you want to wear that top, and then, you know, if you, or if you want to wear the bra that gives you a good shape, you can't wear this blouse, so, again, the calculating and the math, and I actually, I actually added it up, because back when I worked in the corporate world and pre-pandemic, and I dressed up for work every day with heels and skirts, suits, dresses, everything, and I, and I had to, I was in marketing, so I had to look good, and I had to look, you know, contemporary and modern and stylish, and I spent hours every week, you know, trying to calculate, okay, what bra do I wear with this outfit? Can I wear this with that? Can I do this? Where do I have to go after work? And, and I added it all up, and it, it's like, I think it was multiple years, it was like two years from my life, or something, went into, I believe that, you know, I, you know, you know, the mental math of, of matching the bra with the outfit, so, I'm just, and as you reach, you know, as you get older, and you, you sort of, you know, your parents pass away, and you start facing your own mortality, and you think, what do I want to spend the rest of my life doing? How do I, I have to be really careful about where I put my time, and, and that for me, that was one place I just didn't want to put my time anymore, and so, I designed a way around it. Yeah. And where can listeners connect and learn more about Embrago if they're like, I want to see what this product that they're talking all about is. Well start at the website, it's embragoembra, like brago.com, and sometimes the autocorrect will try to switch it to embargo, so you have to make sure it's r a, and then on all socials at Embrago clothing, and I actually, I just want to mention too, if anyone is as into this as I am, and I'm really fired up, but I also have a program that I call the Empowering Ambassadors, EM, and if you are interested in kind of helping spread the word about a new way to get dressed and a new way to think about style, and health, and living, you can apply to be an ambassador, and that's on the website, on the page called Empower. We will make sure those links are in the show notes for easy access to that, but thank you so much, Karen, for sharing all of your insights and experiences, and just for creating this product in the world that sounds like it's really meeting a need for women that have been underserved by the fashion industry. Well, thank you so much, I hope that's what it's doing, I certainly, that's why I'm doing it, and I also hope eventually that this is going to be something that is a good option for all women, you know, I mean, again, it's sort of starting out of this need-based lack of alternatives, but really, ultimately, the goal, you know, my feeling is that all women deserve more compassion and support from their clothing, and I hope this is something that everyone will have a chance to experience, because it really has been wonderful for me and for the customers I've talked to, so thank you so much. This has been really fun, and I've enjoyed talking with you, and just very happy to be here and appreciative of all the work you're doing.