#108 - Winnie Chen: managing 17,000 wines in the heart of Macau

Hi, Winnie. Hi, Antoine. Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we are in the Karla Gaffel Hotel and in Mesa, which is one of the restaurants from Managing here. For the wine you're managing here. Before starting, I need to thank Pia Marie. So Pia Marie, Patue, in a previous episode, put us in relationship. At the end, I always ask who is the next person I'll show you an interview and without hesitating, it's said you need to talk to Winnie in Macau. So thank you very much Pia Marie for this. We'll talk a lot about the Macau market and the context here. But before, can you start by introducing yourself? Oh sure. Thank you Antoine. Thank you Pia Marie. I think it's given me a great opportunity here to share my thoughts. So my name is Winnie. I'm Chinese, actually 100% made in China. Right now, I'm working in this hotel with the extradited results. Grandis Bah Palace, or I should say a SGM group as assistant for the barrage director looking after wine and beverages. So how I started my career, I always say it's a wonderful journey. Actually, graduated in 2010. So I started my management training in Haka-san restaurants, actually based in Abu Dhabi. Now it's Emirates, Paris. So it's a Chinese restaurant, and it's also a mission in one style restaurant. As a management training, so basically we started with everything on the floor. So then comes to a wine, was actually very another interesting story. So we often have trainings going through the one day the hotel familiar. His name is Anand Du Kuma. So he's, he organized a tasting and organized a training for every people. I mean, all the employees in the restaurants. So the topic is about the Luar Valley. So for me, that's one of the magical lessons. Why I say that because I'm growing up being a very, very traditional family. So in China, most of us will never drink alcohol before we turn 18. So you're not ed out. So you won't touch any alcohol. Then that tasting or that training, basically, I don't really taste anything. For me, it's really like an alcohol. When was it? You were like 18 or? That time I was 21 already. So 21, so that. The tasting was, it's not about tasting for me on the first lesson, but it's all about the culture and about the, especially the diverse different style of the wine in that region of Luar. It's very, very huge. One style, I still keep in my mind. So one style, the 100 kilometers of long river, but you can really divide into four regions and each different region, you know, many different LCs at different styles. And then the culture left behind. So these are making me feel very, very interested. So then after the first lesson, I'll move on to the second one. So it's a quickly training. So then slowly, matured, I moved myself into WCET. So my first WCET level one was completed in 2012. So then I would say a bit greedy or I say, I'm ambitious is when I do in level one, I was thinking I should do level two. So when I was doing level two, I'm actually thinking to do level three. So it's really like because the knowledge really for me is very, very, I will say curiousity that brings me there. So I passed my WCET diploma in 2018. So I think completing to six years. And of course, Hakasam give me the first lesson. And after that, I advance myself into Dubai. So it's another international city. So Dubai, I enter the hotel called Bodharaab. It's a cell shaped, so seven star hotel. We have a group of 14 similes. Until now, we still have a group, we're chatting on not every day, but so we do time by time. So we miss the time we actually work together. So 14 similes in that time, I mean, during 2015 time, it's a very big group. And we overlook 12,200 SKUs, I mean, different label labels. I think I started myself, I mean, how to say, I deepen myself into more own cell management, of course, more own guest experience, or especially international calendar. So I completed the Bodharaab in 2019. So after that, it was COVID. So I put myself back to Man in China. So I joined the Grand East Bahamas in 2021. I studied my first job here. It's actually Luizou Haishu Malia. They're within a couple of years. So I've got built my own careers. Now I'm actually assistant for the architect on wines and the beverages. So not only on wine, of course, beverage ever since in one plate. So you mentioned this first tasting as something revelatory for you. Like, you were like, this is actually what I want to do in my life and deepen my knowledge into that. What were you studying at the time? So you were 21. You were studying what like hospitality already or hospitality management, yes. And when you told your family, actually, I want to work in the wine industry, how did they react? My mom says no. Until now, she's still, sometimes she doesn't accept myself, I mean, as a girl, then she says, I'm into myself into this career. She's just saying, "Mmm, don't drink too much." You know? And I say, "Okay, okay." So my father actually, in a way that both of them they support me a lot. Without them, I won't be here because with Chinese, sometimes they're very family driven. And I'm the only child, so they want me to be around with them. But until now, they give me a lot of support that let me be free and study and of course working. Okay. And so when you have this first tasting, what is your next step? Is that basically you, so you enjoy it, you realize that wine industry has a lot to offer. Then you go see your teachers and you're like, how can I go deeper into it? That's an interesting question. Actually, the first class doesn't bring me too much into that. I say, "Oh, okay, that would be the first, that decides my career." I think at that moment, I put myself into hospitality management, but rather than specific into wine and beverage or so on. So that time, I think when you were young, I think you probably have a better memory. So then after first lesson, of what the teacher can give you a lot of study material, so you need to go to home and study. But at that time, I think, one week after the beginning of the second class, the teacher will start asking everybody about questions from a previous lesson. So that time, I think the memory was very good. So they were asking questions, so I could answer them. Even that time, I always say, I've so much understanding about it. Because for me, that's really completely a new era, a new word. So by the, I mean, the heist of the hotel, he encouraged me very much, even from the university one until the university level four. So he constantly encouraged me that you can do it, you can do it. As you, without his encouragement, I won't do that much faster from one to four. If you want to tell I think I start getting the taste in skills more than when I finish the level two of the university, that you have really understanding about the wine tasting profile. So that takes me a little bit long time. I always look back, I would say, I drink very much late. But I get that kind of, I miss the time I would say. Now, WST is a great, great school of learning how to technically like taste were wine because you know, you have this very, like systematic, it's actually a systematic way of tasting the different parts. For me, it was very interesting as well because I, you know, I, obviously I taste wine. I'm interesting in it, but I didn't have the this systematic approach and this vocabulary associated like what is a low medium high acidity, you know, like it's basic stuff, but just the fact of putting a clear grid on what is it, it's great. It has some flows because sometimes it's a bit too, you know, standard, but actually it helps a bit. Definitely, it's definitely one of the foundations. It builds the foundation of tasting. So after the diploma, actually, I think I put myself into more professional fields. So then I pursued myself into cost of master's familiar. So then I think when I do certified, then I complete the advanced, so then I think that it's different, it's different tasting methods. Of course, same thing you are looking at acidity, alcohol, or tanning level, or fluid profile, or anything. But the way of detecting the grape variety is something really, how to say a more professional word, I would say, more technical in CMS field. I think if that was eating away nowadays, I could understand that it is more to help people understand especially the quality size. But the CMS caught a mass of some ways, more on helping people to detect what the properties of vintage or from which country. So you already tried or you tried the ones last year in October, in London. Every year I think of a new need, maybe five or six years to do that. So you kind of started your career in the Emirates, professional speaking. How is it to arrive in Abu Dhabi? Yes, starting in Abu Dhabi. How is it to arrive in 20? 22-22-22. Yeah, 20. So 20 I entered Abu Dhabi. So it's interesting because people sometimes say, "How did you start your wine in Middle East?" That's always the question I get. So the hospitality management, I think one of the futurism is that time in Middle East. So I never be there. So for girls, I think it's always great to see some to the world. So here I also, again, need to appreciate my parents. So they really support me to let me go out. So to see different worlds. Yeah, plus for them it's not easy to see their girl going to the Middle East, you know, alone at 20 or something. And so you start as a sommelier, yeah? Assistant sommelier? Oh, I started with actually a management trainee, just a trainee. So walking in the restaurant. Okay. And then you go to Dubai? Yeah, then go to Dubai. So like four years time in Abu Dhabi, then four years time in Dubai. Okay. And you were living in Abu Dhabi and then in Dubai? Yeah. It's two different companies. I am Miss Palace. It was my first job. So of course we stayed in Abu Dhabi for four years. But that time, especially for my WCT level 3, the courses that happen in Dubai. So basically I need to travel every week to do the courses. And after Abu Dhabi, then I moved myself into Dubai. So of course I just stayed in Dubai. So that. Okay. And so how was it being a sommelier in Dubai? Very interesting actually. So as I mentioned, 14 sommiers, right? We have a group of 14 sommiers. I still remember when I received a message from the head sommelier of Baja Raab. So the first question he was asking me, "Do you feel comfortable to walk with you? 13 men." So during the time back to 10 years, they have a girl, female sommelier. They are mostly the gentlemen on men. So I feel it is okay. I mean, I didn't think of something. You really need to put the change in the female. So the way I talk to him, I think it's maybe feel more lucky because I have a lot of people to look after. So then I enter. So again, it's end of the day I feel it's really with all our young boys. They don't have more. We have more tumultures joining as well. So our team members are really walking like a family. And really like brothers and sisters. We help each other and especially in the impression that all the restaurants, the financial restaurant we do is split shift. So you have lunch shift, you have dinner shift. So most of our summer we walk in two shifts. So basically all of us arrive in a hotel, probably 11 o'clock, a.m. or 12. So then of course you do your business class, then you start your operation at 12. Of course you have breakfast. So when the lunch operation finishes around 3 or 3.30. So between 3.30 for example until 5.30 or 6.30, your dinner operation. So the 2.5 hour gap there. So of course sometimes you need to walk on to put all the wise back your cellar, you make sure you some extra storage to all you have some admin paperwork. But again you always have some certain times, these 2.5 hour you are free. So what do we do is we have a lot of private rooms of restaurants. So we grab our book, study materials. So then we go to that private dining room and we start it together. Of course we sometimes we organize a lot of tastings in birch. So every day you probably one week or maybe two weeks time, you always can get wire makers or the sales director or any ambassador to come to Dubai. So they organize a master class for all the shops. So see I mean that the work life and the study life is basically combined. So great. You miss the time over there actually, really a lot. Yeah it looks like the time when you are at the opportunity to kind of mix things, learn a lot. It's great that you have this in between your service because a lot of people actually complain that between the services there is nothing to do. And then you just waste like 3 hours, can't go home, can't just do something because it's short. Dubai there is like the time you take the car, you can get to a place and then come back and then he's been 3 hours. Bota Arabe is one of the most iconic and luxurious hotel in the world. So like you said it's a seven stars, well they look like they've decided themselves to award the seven stars. So like I'm not sure there is a proper ranking for the number of stars but anyway it's like one of the probably the most luxurious hotel. I've you seen like does it change that much working for such a high level hotel than working here. For example here it's like 5 stars as well. You are absolutely right there is no proper ranking for Bota Arabe as a seven stars. So it's actually the Bota Arabe if you go to the entrance it's still written 5 stars hotel. Why comes to 7 because one of the English journalists they came to Birch they stayed with us then after he departure back to London so he lots of very big articles say that the experience the services he received is over 5 stars so he said that is a seven star service. That time it's really like 7 to 1 like a seven star looking after one guest. I mean that kind of right to you. So that's how the seven star hotel comes from. It was another joke that was saying that actually in entire Birch Arabe we use the 49 tons of gold. So even you go to the toilet with some corners it's always with gold flakes. It's real gold so they said it's around 49 tons. So then when the Emirates Palace built after so actually in Emirates Palace was talking about a 50 something 56 or something 56 tons of gold. That's why there's always say Emirates Palace like a star hotel. But again no proper range but if in a way here in Macau so our granite's paparazzi is out we are also very special we are the only hotel in the world. So because we have three hotels combined the colour of the field is now we are standing. We have a plaza of a satry Macau so this next door. And of course we have the main building is the granite's paparazzi. So all three hotels has received five star forps. I think it's really one of the only one I should say in the world. And also we are all the hotels we have two metering key. So I mean in this in Macau we're really also looking for a seek for the excellence of different channels of course in the service. And then in Macau I was saying in Asia we care service more than anyone else. It's the same thing. We and demanding all you will say the guest expectation is not going to lowland and you are there. It's always super high. Yeah in Chinese hospitality in general is not to be amazing when you go to hotels in China. It's amazing. So right now you are managing the wine and beverage selection for all the restaurants of these three hotels. Yes. We are actually SGM group so we have here we have granite's paparazzi result that combines three hotels we just mentioned. We also have granite's poor which is in Macau sites. And we also have another hotel called the Luck which is purchased recently. So all those are on the SGM group. So we are caught like kind of corporate looking after all the boys and beverages. And so how many restaurants? In this building in Granite's paparazzi result we have around 33 outlets and of course it plus granite's poor we have additional like 10 and the Luck maybe around a 5 so all everything Add together it's around 70. Okay. Until I miss my. be a lot of different staff to train, a lot of different SKUs. So I guess the does the wine selection changes depending on where you are in the group? Yes, we are holding the largest wine selection in the Asia. So we have around 17,000 SKUs, talking about bottled label. 17,000 SKUs. Yes. So then of course different restaurants will be different, slightly different, so we are going by the glass program. For example, now we are in mess and mess is more Portuguese. So we actually created another hundred percent Portuguese wine, this only for these restaurants. And of course we have more facades. So it's Italian, causing a Chinese Italian style, so it's more Italian wines. And then we have palace gardens or more on the Chinese Cantonese, so we can more focus on French. How do you how do you manage 17,000 SKUs? It's not only one person. We definitely need a lot of teamwork, so we have a different team. For example, Grennys, where we have Grennys, a Grennys bar team, we used to have like we have three fine nine restaurants over there. Here we have four fine nine restaurants over here. So team add up together is around 14 people again. 14. And do you still serve clients or are you more focused on managing the team, managing the SKUs, training the team to sell the wine? I was at two boats, but now I spent a slightly less time on the floor, that's yes, but well, I really miss a lot. Adamian work will be a bit more overloaded. So of course we still have two project on the pipeline, so working on that too. But we have a lot of wine dinners happening. For example, the year of 2026, we have organized around 12 to 14 wine dinners in in Italian of 2026. So like average one month, we have one dinner. So that needs a lot of coordination too. And then all those wine dinners of VIP guests, events we have, I always be with until the last moment. Yeah. Okay. And so considering that you have 70 restaurants working together, do you like do you still manage to buy some low volumes here and there? Or when you buy a wine, it must be like a gigantic or others for people. So do you still manage to work like with smaller states and you know, to try to identify really niche things? Or do you try to just buy a. We prefer niche. Yeah. I would say that because we have 70,000 labels. So we have a lot of focus on the big brands, of course, more popular. But now the market is changing a bit, of course, demanding on the niche and boutique wineries are even higher and higher. So we do focus on those as well, especially in the rallies, but palace results here. We more focus on, for example, even the world-rower champagne for sure. We have lots of smaller growers champagne and they are more like on location style. And of course, big brand we also do, but won't be very like a booker and large volume purchase. So it's more on, we observe the market and see how well the demand is. And so you are responsible for this as well? Yeah. Of course, together with the team, so we're just. Because who understands the gas mostly is actually the person who's working on the floor every day. So I always listen to the advice or suggestion from all the team members. What's the type of people who come here? Type of people. How to say that? How is gaming hospitality driven? Because we are all for the government and also ourselves as well. So we're trying to promote as much as we can with non-gaming elements, for example, food and beverage, especially in rallies by palace, we focus more on food and beverage. So to provide the service, to provide the best wine, our guest clientele is more on foodies and who's really loving the wine. And once into mentioning our in SM, so we are trying to have very reasonable selling price in our wine list. So if you check out our wine at USC, most of the wine that you may find is quite, quite close to retail price or quite, quite close. I wouldn't say the same as wine such, but definitely the reasonable. As we always follow Dr. Stanley Ho say that he wants every single guest come to rallies, but pedal comes to a stream. So they can enjoy wine and food like you are actually doing at home. So you like a more homie style. Okay. And so you said that you're trying to promote more food and wine than gaming? It's definitely one of the key elements we want to promote. But gaming is always this is hospitality, right? And do you have a lot of wine makers coming here to present the wine and to show you things? We do, especially and also we are very close to Hong Kong. So that every this year, actually, in 1996, we have Ving Expo. So by the time we should have a lot of wine makers would like to come to Macau to tell us the story about, of course, the winery. We'll definitely be around for Ving Expo. I think it's going to be an amazing moment for the wine industry. And especially we have around 14 wind in us on the way. So every wind in us would definitely have winery representative. Why make cars or owners are here as well to share more stories about our guests here of course, in a gaming as well. Wine lovers around the town. What differences do you see between Dubai and Macau? Number one, I will say the customer profile because there is more international. So you will see a lot of European in Dubai. And see after COVID, they have even more of Russians, I think, and more European people over there. But in Macau, I will say 80% is more Chinese, I'll let me for a melon. And some are from Hong Kong and some of course more percentage of European, smaller and smaller. We have more Asia like Japan, Korea, Thai, Southeast Asia. I see around the table that you have a lot of awards. I can see like top 100 tables, later 2025. Is it something that is important to you like do you contribute to this or? It's definitely restaurants, so it means a team's effort. So that's also one of the key proof for us. We really want to we do see seriously on our foreign beverage. So that this is the food. So of course, link to the restaurant of the chef. So chef is trying to contribute a lot from their side. So they will get 100 table, title events awards and also of course the sea trip. So all these awards are being its team efforts. Why we have different wine awards. So we also participate star wireless wine spectator and also awards of fine wine awards. And also we do have a champion Asia as well. So we have different category. So one of the topics that is very important to us is Chinese wines. So you know we've been kind of exploring the exploring it's a big word but we have started exploring Chinese wines trying to taste, trying to go see what is happening in China. Is it something that you also push here? I mean more Chinese wines. Maybe if you have Chinese restaurants having a bit more of wines from China or is it or like do you keep many international like what's your vision on Chinese wines? In our result, the ratio between Chinese and non-Chinese I would say a bit more smaller. Definitely if you will compare to other results. The reason why is actually our we have a very very large wine selection. So 70s or so if you're talking about like 20 or 30 Chinese that's really too small. And also one thing mentioned earlier is French wine, Italian wine, American wine, all those we actually collected them very long long time back, like 20 years ago. So that's also the reason why our price is so reasonable for wine collectors or when lovers to come and enjoy. So if you're in front of you that's these wines are already high-volume to rail to try. So I think that they will always make a choice of non-Chinese. But I would definitely say Chinese wine as I'm also Chinese. So our Chinese wine, I've tasted last 5 to 10 years, all the different years of production. So the wine making skills is much higher than before. And also all the wineries, they have identical, identical on the style because in the past if you if you also taste some Chinese wine. So like 10 years ago you may taste all the wine that tastes quite similar. So they are very a bit copier paste. Also not copier paste is more like the style they are more close to bottle, some are close to but But nowadays you can taste some of wines that are really, really interesting. Link to Tehua, link to that piece of land. I think that's very, very important. So I would say this is really called Chinese wine. So that from that land, we find the best grape to suitable for that piece of land that make a wine. So I think this is definitely Chinese wine or a bit. One of the fascinating things coming. Yeah, 100%. Amazing things are happening in Chinese wines. If I am, so you know, this podcast is listened by amateurs, like wine amateurs, people who really enjoy it. But it's also listened by professionals in the wine industry, especially some students as somebody else. And also some producers. So the two questions I have for you is if I am a young somebody like students, students, somebody, what would you say to them to like what would be advice for starting a good advice for starting career in the industry? For the younger somebody as I say be patient because somebody career is not easy to make you get a quick money because I mean money is one thing for a lot of people. I mean, they're looking for a job right? So maybe a couple of years, you may look at your salary, it won't be that much. The high. You need to really put yourself down to study. You understand the wine, understand the tasting, understand the service. Then you reach certain points, as you can start a career path, then maybe you're going to have that. It's a job where we say need a lot of passions, I need a lot of discipline, need a lot of time to settle ourselves down. Do some people, they say the first couple of years, you always study, you know, study sometimes you feel boring, sometimes then you have a lot of volume especially in front of you, you have a lot of tasting of regions, laws or grape varieties. When you see massive information in front of you, you need to study. Some people that get a scale, the sometime they feel overwhelmed, the sometime you feel afraid. So it's it's normal, but I see a lot of younger somebody as they start quitting. They say, ah, this is not really for me. Well, maybe I can move myself into insurance, as some people are moving into maybe into a managerial, that would be great if they hardly leave the hospitality. A lot of people do it this way. Of course, it's end of day, it's everybody's choice, but I mean, if you're one person, when you settle yourself with a goal to be familiar and to be in the hospitality industry, you need to start accepting first, that's a different role. I mean, this role will be full of difficulties or that you need to face and to serve the problem. But please believe end of the day for sure, you will see a bright, bright, yourself and bright future too. Same question, but more for wine producers. So if I am a wine producer in Europe, for example, in France or in Italy or something, turns out I'm doing kind of good wines, but I want you to discover them and to bring them on the list here. What should I do? We're happy to do a TAC together and we of course, of course, we're together with so many teams, so many teams, so we can taste together and see how the wine that goes to particular restaurants, because end of day it's a food and wine pairing together, right? So it's always need to have a match. So then let's see for these wine makers, does he has already the collaborative vendor or distributor in Hong Kong and Macau? If yes, it would be much easier. If not, we can start helping them to find a distributor responsible for them. So then the procurement process is following. Okay, so you would say the first step is actually come here and just reach out to you to the hotel to like whatever and try to meet you and bring a bit of bottles to you. To tell the story or maybe the philosophy that you really carry on and of course end of day it's the glass matters. Makes sense. I think we've covered a lot into what you're doing. Is there things we didn't mention? I think we covered. I have a question about here, about the Calaga Fair Hotel. How did it like is the first time I hear about the Calaga Fair Hotel? How did it happen? This hotel is designed by Calaga Fair. It has been designed by him. So if you pass by ground floor, you will see the book lounge. So that's because he loves books. And whenever you go to all the different, it's actually the Calaton here. It's more on the black, gold and red. This is the Calaghe Likes. And everything is designed by him. But unfortunately he designed everything but he couldn't see it as well. So yes, you may know he passed away in 2019. He passed away before the opening of the hotel. We opened this hotel in Covid times, 2021 July. So two years before he passed away. But every single corner, it's actually designed by him. So that's why we are one and only. Yeah, actually when I've seen that, I was like, I don't know, Calaga Fair, maybe not. What is it? And I thought it would be like a license to his name. It's it. I trade you and you would design everything around here. We have a tour of the ground floor because we went through some elevators stuff to arrive here. But we'll go to the ground floor to see the bookshelves. Great. How is it to study for a master's somebody? Don't want to put some pressure. But well, I hear this is already with the pressure actually. I'm trying to to to level up. As I said, I actually tried myself last year as well in October. I think it's very important to put yourself on a trial because every time when I hear from my friends, from people who pass exam, they always can tell you that there's certain things you need to face. But when you really sit in exam, the pressure or the amount of studies and also the angle of the questions. So these are thinking you will understand more. So after that exam, I understand more on the question and of course more on the label of the master's somebody is looking for. So only so I think I'm quite clear. But the one another thing is the information is massive. So you just mentioned wine laws, then wine regions, separations and of course different percentage of alcohol or different percentage of the relative sugar, whatever. And all those you have to understand and memorize them, especially my workload is a bit. I sometimes need to manage my workload. So then I always say time, you need to try to squeeze the time for your own style of study. As I mentioned earlier as well, actually every day morning I try to wake up like 6 or 30 in the morning. That's the first two hours for me is really my brain is much more clear and sharp. After that, if I'm moving to my September 9 o'clock, I'm already in here. I'm already in hotels during some start of my morning briefing and of course, eventually all the work, some meetings and so on. So sometimes my job finished by 10. Sometimes I meet with VIP events or wind in as most proliferation one or two. So during all the meetings, I think trying level best to see if I can squeeze out 15 minutes or 5 minutes just to go through the questions. It's very hard. I mean, for piece of advice for people who ever wants to go for Masters of the exam, you need to really understand your timing and of course you're disciplined on your level of managing your own things. Of course, you need to manage your work, your family and yourself of course. But again, I think it's a job, it's an exam to teach us how to be a bit better person. I think in terms of displaying in terms of the level of time and effort in putting it definitely different for sure once you pass. Well, I wish you the best for this exam. I hope I'm going to make it. Yeah, it looks like something really huge in terms of workload and commitment. And then what would be the difference for you if tomorrow you're Masters of the year? Like will you change? What does it change in your life? That's also another good question. So I think personally or professionally into the work, I think Masters of the Year title definitely gonna bring a lot of windows. Of course, if that brings one number one, creativity that people are looking at you. For example, when you are talking about the glass of water or glass of wine, as the master's familiar, when you tell them something about story about the Tacy notes, they may look differently from guess point of view. So I think that definitely gonna helps to build a personal, I would say, professionalism image that will be definitely a little bit more key scene. But even talking about the personal, I would say, hard work pays off because you really put a lot of time and effort to discipline and the commitment to it, then you deserve that title. So the first person I would say, you can always tell yourself, wow, you did a good job. That's one key scene for being a personal. But along with all those, I think again, you need to come up with responsibilities. So when you're being a master's familiar, like I see Pierre-Marie, I see Ronald, they always help in the younger generation, to set up a new standard, to set up the way of learning and because the level of service and the level of tasting. So these are all along with responsibilities. It's not only you pass that you today is finished, you have to embrace the community and also the industry people. You know, I interviewed a few years ago Pascaline Nopelché, who is a France's best sommelier in, I don't know which era. And like she represented France in a word best sommelier, she finished the second, twice, like things like that, she works in New York. And she told me something very inspiring in that. So you know, she's, I don't know how to say, but it's a title in France, it's like best worker in France in sommelier. So in sommelier. And so she can have blue, white, red color from friends. And she was like, the day I feel I don't deserve this anymore. I won't wear it anymore. And like it's not because I won one year in my life that I can wear that for the rest of my life without like continuing working and improving and bringing things to people, bringing the wine industry to a next step. And I think it was super inspiring because more personally speaking at that time, I was training for Marathon. And I was like, you know what? I do a marathon. Then I can say I did a marathon and it's okay. But then talking to her, I realized that it's worth nothing. If I can't continue to have such achievement in my life. Like running a marathon once is great, but being able to run it whenever you want in your life is something else. Like it's really another level, I'm not saying I could run a marathon tomorrow, but you know what I mean? Like you continue to deserve the award you acquired or the diploma you acquired. Wow, that's so inspiring actually. So actually it reminds me of another person of Robatos. He just passed his master's on the last year. So this January I was in Singapore. So he opened a new wine room called Temper in Singapore. So of course I said I want to go there to have look. It's a new wine lounge. Then I wanted to text him that I'm going to that Temper. So most probably we can meet up. So then in the message he told me, I said, "Oh, where are you?" He said, "Oh, I'm actually home doing study." So he took a picture of that page. It's about Chile. So he's really studying. I said, "Wow, you're doing studies." He said, "Yes." So he's trying to maintain that, you know, he's already in South America. He's he doesn't want he won't he expect the people expectation to him. That makes me feel like a super inspiring that when people reach the title but he still continue study. That sounds like I really admire. Yeah, that's impressive. Thank you very much, Winnie, for all this. It was an amazing discussion. Thank you very much for helping us discover this colorful hotel and this atmosphere. I think there was good learning in your career as a sommelier. And also I hope it's with inspire a younger generation listening to that. And you know, having your first glimpse in what does it look like after like what's been ten years, basically you're working maybe a bit less in the industry. Now 13 years. 13 years. Okay, so a bit more than ten years. So it's a good view. You know, for people projecting into what's going to be the first ten years of my career. So that's amazing. And thank you for sharing this journal. I have three last questions that are pretty traditional in this podcast. The first thing is do you have a book recommendation about wine in preference? Yes, I do. I actually do have two books that you to recommend. It's a one about the vitic culture, one about the verification. So maybe for some of the people may feel it's quite boring book, but it's really for me is to understand quickly about the vitic culture and verification. That's the two really books I really love. One is for its vitic culture and understand wine vines. So and also another one is called understand wine technology, returned by Mr. David Burr. So that's one of the very old book, but I think it's still available to find, but it's really he's trying to use some simple wording to help you understand why making techniques. So for that two books, I highly recommend. Great. We'll put link in the descriptions. I want to find it. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved like a wine that you tasted recently? That was nice. Wow, that's a very good question. Recently maybe yesterday were much more close. So yesterday I tasted some wine that I actually made by Michel Chapeau Tien. He's a new project in Portugal. So the wine was from Portugal. The wine that I read for me is like something interesting. The tour of Ganessin makes me feel like wow, it's something with a lot of French touch because of very elegant. So I think it sounds into to to recommend. It's not so high end, but it's beautiful for you. Amazing. And we we saluted Michel Chapeau Tien. It was one of the first person to come on the podcast. Oh yeah. But it's in French. It was at the time we were doing in French, but actually it was one of the first interviews I did. And it was an amazing discussion. Like I learned, I think I learned loads of things with this interview. And it was very into sharing. And we should do a new interview but in English. Next time we see a magazine. And I know if he speaks super well English, we'll see I guess he speaks well English. But you're very nice guy and he kind of contributed to starting this podcast. And finally, who is the next person we should interview? I'm thinking a final mark. Final is now the head familiar for Alan Ducas in COD, City of Dreams. So I think final, I knew him as a very good friend. So we all suddenly we always suddenly we actually started together doing a lot of questionnaires. So of course we threw video cards to. He's a very disciplined person as well with hardworking. And he's very very professional into his own world. And of course he's also another target to build a to help younger generation to help the team to grow up. So I think I recommend him. Amazing. It's amazing in my car. Yes, crazy in my car. That's great. It should be a good excuse to come back. Yeah, please. That's great news. Thank you very much for this. Thank you for sharing this. If you like this episode, if you're still here, it means that you like this episode actually. So don't forget to share it to at least two people. Maybe two people wanting to join the wine world as a sommelier or studying to become sommelier or master sommelier. Don't forget to subscribe, share, like everything. Check the description for the elements that we need shout to us. Come to Marco if you have the opportunity. Come see Mesa and the restaurants around here. We need thanks again and see you soon. Thank you. See you soon. Fine. Thank you. Great interview. Thanks a lot.