#106 - Derek Li: from Hong Kong nightlife to Advanced Sommelier & Wine Educator

Alright, perfect. Hi Derek. Hi Anton. Thank you very much for being with us today. We should have met each other at the end of last year, but fortunately we found another moment to have this discussion together. Actually, the first time we met you was at the Cilen. People who look at this channel, I think they already know they were at the Cilen because 50% of the time I'm there and 50% of the time I'm doing is basically at the Cilen, which is a super nice wine bar in Hong Kong. At that time you were training somebody around the table. And actually, Matthew, so one of the partners of Cilen told me, "You have to interview Derek, he's one of the most interesting guys in wine in Hong Kong, so you guys should do something together." And so here we are. I'm always very interesting. Thank you. Thank you for your invitation. Thank you. No, it's a great pleasure to have you. Can you start by introducing yourself? So I'm Derek. So basically I'm from Hong Kong, because we are in Hong Kong now. So basically as you see it outside, I was doing some education with the younger generation. So many of us, I'm mostly, I can say, I'm an educator, but my task actually is become a educator because I also, like, doing study as well. I'm full-time master so many exam candidates as well, at the same time also so many as well. So my task, which is become a kid, but most likely I'm doing education. I'm also teaching WS City as well. Okay. Yeah. How did you start in the wine industry? I think I used to drink a lot. But you know, I was a rocket on the bar. Basically I was working in Nankui phone. That's why it's been for a long time before. So I started to like drinking. Who doesn't like drinking, right? If you want to be actually working in the wine industry, the first thing you do to enjoy is all about alcohol. This is important. But at the same time, I work actually on the floor as well. I used to sell so many alcohol. Because I like alcohol. I want people getting like happier. So that's why I want people to tell me see people drinking alcohol. At that moment, we have a lot of beautiful champagne. We have a lot of wine as well in Nankui phone. So basically I don't know nothing. You don't know anything about wine. But I can sell. Because I just want to encourage the people drinking alcohol. And I was actually one of the best, best seller in the best one. And my general manager told me, "Hey Derek, you sell a lot of alcohol on wine as well. But you don't know anything about wine." And I said, "Yes, I don't know, but I can sell." But she encouraged me and said, "Hey, you better study WICT by a small, we're going to sponsor you everything from our company." So that's why my journey started from WICT level one and two. And of course, I passed. I didn't destroy my WICT at that moment. It's really long time before. When I, I don't know how I've been 15 years before, I guess, as you remember. And other day, I was starting to understand about why. And started to create my interest to study everything even further. So I did my WICT level three and I passed. And I was at, I see a different certificate called call master so many. And then, or I tried that. And then, fortunately, I passed again. I passed my IS and certificate so many in 2014, which is really long time before, I'm happy. And I think the moment I started to understand about more why. And I want to see a lot of people that bring their why to my restaurant. If I sell them why, at least I can tell them story behind the why, which is happy. And yeah, that's it. So that's why I started my journey to buy someone and coaching me to study about why. Which is, I don't know, I studied. I'm a poor student. At the moment, I didn't study my university as well. I'm such a poor student, I can tell you. So that's why at that moment, I started to think, if I want to get promotion to get higher position, so why not study something and then you promote much more faster because I was the captain at that moment. Of course, after that, I started to be my position just like helicopter. It's just I promoted to supervisor and the final day of my summer manager. I felt that more my which is crazy in five years. This is crazy. So yeah, that's my journey. It's a, it's fun how you started just like selling stuff. Yeah. Don't even know what you're selling, you know, like, yeah, this is good beer, just a good champagne go for it. So long, quite fun for people listening to us. If you're not from Hong Kong, it's basically the place where you have like all the nightclubs and the bars and like very festive neighborhood of Hong Kong. And very like the atmosphere is very different from traditional somebody, environment, you know, with nice restaurant, white napkins and stuff. It's different kind of atmosphere of Leng Kuo Yifeng. So it's fun how you transition from a place where you just like sell shit down off our car with us to serving more specific stuff. We have a lot of alcohol. Remember we serve like Lamborghini. I don't know you do you know, do you know, know this kind of cocktail? No, it's not. Famine Lamborghini. We used to serve it, especially having birthday. It's one of the most iconic Famine cocktail to make people drunk. Like crazy. Okay. Every you have one Lamborghini, one Famine Lamborghini, you get drunk. I'm sure. Normally people to maximum to Lamborghini and you have your, your, what's in the cocktail? This is actually Famine cocktail is great by a lot of alcohol inside. I can't remember. It's a sample car. I've heard, I forgot what it was ingredient, but it's a lot ingredient inside. So in blue color. So we normally use a little bit one five one on the top. One five one is actually one of the strongest, highest string rum. But it's not any, is there a drop producing animal? It's from Bugatti. Okay. So it's on the dirt. It's easier to get famed, spooch. You want to try? Maybe you can find it from eBay. I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I want to try this one. Maybe a few years before I would have been keen on that. But now, you know, with the age as a grandfather, I would say, I take more and more time to recover from going out. So might, might keep this one. I still like absent because I still encourage people to get absent. Because a lot of people start running me. If they allow me very well, I drink a lot of the absent. Okay. Yeah, I'm picked from absent. Everything from Annie's, I really like Yifan's Chachu's or Yifan's someone like that. I really like that. I find this crazy, this alcohol, this is absolutely crazy. I added once, but you know, the traditional way. So it was like a big jar. And you know, it was dripping on the sugar. Yeah, sugar, like you would drink it. But it was not in France because I think in France it's forbidden. It's a forbidden alcohol because I don't remember the exact story, but it's like someone drunk it and killed someone. And then it was like, this alcohol makes you do crazy things. It's like the face more crazy. Yeah, it's like the satan alcohol. So we forbid it. I think now it's okay. I think you can find it in France. Quite sure. I don't know. I haven't tried it. I think you can find it, but it's lower in alcohol. I think at some point it was like a crazy level of alcohol. Because the alcohol level could be very diverse. It could be something like 40, 50, something like 60, 70 as well. It could be very diverse in alcohol level. But if you dilute in water, so basically you have slightly battered. You know, you don't normally get very drunk. But you don't drink like a shot, right? If you drink like a shot, so you sip. Do you just want to enjoy this kind of alcohol? It's actually really good. Yeah, I love the taste. I have a good memory of that. Right. Do you still drink that much today? I get to like that. I like both. I like abs and such. I drink it all the time. If I can find such a choice because it's not easy to find now. So basically it's getting more expensive and our occasions become limit. So basically I can. You cannot find a lot of such a choice in Hong Kong. So basically it's not easy. I think the re-epee is amazing. But it's only maybe mostly I can find auction. I know the price is bigger, more expensive. But the absent I cannot find a really good bar for absent Hong Kong. I have it in Melbourne, which is one of the best bar for absent. You can find so many absent from everywhere. Different part of the world. So it's amazing. Hong Kong, we are a big fan. I think when I ask a lot of people, do you have an absent? They say no, no, no, come to me. OK. So if I go to Melbourne, I will send you a message. Do you still sell as many alcohol as you were? Now that sometimes when you don't know anything about it, you just want to sell massive amounts and be like just putting things out, earning money, and that's it. Now that you have this level of education in wine and in spirit, do you still manage to sell that much or do you have a different approach? I think if you work as a management, because my role basically, but PV job is like the perfect director. So obviously, a little different outlet. So basically, I can sell. But my task becomes more management size. How you educate yourself, how you educate your people to help you to sell better. So basically, the trend is, training is very important. Why training is always priority and you have to show them how to do that, how to sell, how to sell this different alcohol because I'm over-seen, not only wine. We're talking about cocktail, we're talking about risky, different kind of beverage, or even sake as well. So how are you gonna approach to the customer how you can sell by themselves? I can sell, but I cannot do my job like six hours, seven hours, so I cannot do, I cannot walk everyone and sell alcohol, right, I did teach people. So education is more important. So this idea, how can I transfer this kind of idea to now I wanna educate people like younger generation, so many I think, it's a good thing to let them know how you do better, right? In the restaurant, how they even create the wine, how they do inventory, how can they sell, how can they do pairing as well as the important, this is why I transferred. So tell me if I'm a young somebody, how should I approach a table, or what would be the approach for young somebody to sell, because actually it's fun that you mention that because in this podcast and in the lot of contents we've created, you know, we are more on the production side. But in the end, this wine, this alcohol needs to be sold. Right, sure. So, and this is basically the role of the somebody, somebody is a nice title when you work at restaurant, but you're in good, I guess is how much wine or alcohol in general, did you say that? So what's the approach for young somebody like, if I want to really start like, uping my fingers and you know, start redoing some results, how would you recommend to proceed? I think the first thing to get younger generation, or so many of them did to think about, you have to find something that you really like, really really like, maybe particular ballad, even though a very commercial brand or even a very like small producer, but at least you find one or two ballad wine that you really like, because I always encourage people, especially people working with me, I always tell them, it's like you need to find something that you want to sell. Because, okay, it's my wine, but if you don't like my wine, it's hard to sell, right? You put the wine or is it, if you like that kind of champagne, but you don't like it, you don't like it, you don't really enjoy the ballad, and how can you sell it? So, normally when I ask someone to sell something, at least, that I'm trying to buy first, if they really for enough of this bottle, they can sell much more better than me. So, I always take care talking about, you do for enough for something first, and then just like something, everything in your heart, and when you're opposed to the table, I think most of the customers, they will feel, oh, you really like this wine, and this is most important thing. We left us sell something that you don't like. It's an artist, a very bad wine, it's very crap, crap you wine, it's like, don't sell it. If you're thinking the wine is all good, don't sell it to customers, don't tell, don't tell them the wine is good. Even though, you know, tell, okay, if you like you know, tell, okay, go ahead, you can sell it, okay, you're up, but you have to drink it. Because in my wine program, every single wine that I put in the release, I would drink it by my own, even my bar of gas, even the cheapest bar of gas I would drink it by myself. So every single bottle of wine, I would drink it, I really enjoyed what is my selection. So, if you wanna be a younger generation, just so many, you wanna run in the restaurant, you wanna do better, find something that you really like, and trying to sell hard, trying to be up the revenue, trying to be a relationship for customer. I think the most important thing is about the whole experience, how you be up the relationship with your guests, and I come back for you and remember your name, that's important because if it creates a whole experience, they cannot remember every single little thing, even one single thing from you, that means your love varies as well. Because you cannot bring up something special for your people. So, which is, they need to learn about that, right? But that's it. Yeah. - Now, I think it's interesting, and maybe like for young somebody, maybe you don't have the choice of what's on the wine list, because maybe like the beverage director or someone who makes it, but you can actually find one bottle that you are currently enjoying. - At least. - And this one you max it, you go full throttle for it, and you can find maybe a bit more than one bottle. So, then that's it. - You have to read about a story behind, if you like the bottle, because if you like something, you will actually do it as if in by yourself, you don't need someone to push you, right? That's important. Because I teach so many people, basically some of people, they don't have flow inches about wine. So, if you have no inches about wine for my suggestion, better change your industry to maybe on a four as a management, don't work as a so many years. So, that's important for me. And then when I have an interview for different people, or if you want to do so many years, what can be me together, I say, okay. But I always ask one single question, do you buy wine by yourself? You say no, I say bye bye. (laughs) Right, this is just a small thing that's important, right? If you have a connection by yourself, have you buy your wine for yourself? Okay. At least you show some inches, right? And the same question I ask you, which wine bar do you like the most? If you didn't go out for drinking, I've a doubt. You talk about the wine bar, you say, oh, I went to Matto, I went to cyclone, bar cyclone, even though different wine bar, even Xiaomi, right? Okay, at least you know some places that you can find a glass of wine, right? And that's important. So this cool question always in my interview. So if you want to come, I don't have a job to hire you guys, but in the future, if you want to come to me as I want to find a job, okay. But at least to question you, to know, not learning about a knowledge. So you know it's guys, if you go see the right, better prepare for these questions. How do you, like what have you seen in, so it's been more like 15 years that you're working as somebody in Hong Kong at different level? Yeah, yeah, only Hong Kong. Okay. Have you noticed like a switch in the people working in this industry over the last 15 years? I think there's always a switch because 15 years before, I think we talk about the, at the core FNB industry, we have so many people, we have a lot of labor. So basically, now there is, we have much more less people, especially young generation, they are a lot very interested to work in our industry, right? I cannot say they are easier. I cannot say that, but they would like to work something else while in FNB industry, because our industry is pretty, you need to work very hard. Because in Hong Kong, you know, normally the boss, they want to squeeze you like lemon. They want to squeeze as much as they can, right? So you need to work very hard. So if you're working in the restaurant, normally you work like 10, 11, 12 hours, which is not easy, working five days, six days a week. So but somehow, when I was working as a waiter, you know, I was a teenager, not teenager, I'm talking about 15 years later, I was working as a waiter. So I start everything from very basic, learned everything after a few years, and I promote to captain, but you do the same for four years. And then working at the bat, polishing all the glasses, polishing all the cutlery. So I think now people that are pretty lucky, because when you're working in the restaurant as captain, you will get promote one year, maybe one year until year, so you can get promote in the hotel, which is you got your velocate, because in the old day, you refer hard, and you just, but you cannot work on the floor, basically you cannot take the order. You can just only do a lot of side job, preparation, misimpress, this extra charge, so you cannot touch anything. So now people are lucky. Yeah, you can advance maybe a bit faster in the career. Sure, and even though nowadays, I think they are pretty like more like multi-task, because as mentioned before, we don't have a lot of people working in the industry. So basically, you did to, even though you have so many here, okay? If you can see the food is coming out for the kitchen, but there's no one, I think you did to help as well, because you just want to make sure the food is in the perfect condition to serve our customers. You have to expect the food as well, what is ingredient, what is sauce, how are we going to enjoy the dishes? It's not, I can say, in the old day, of course, it's not a job, but now it's like, we need to do it, because we are well as a team. We create the better environment and to help each other. So yeah, I think now it's become more difficult than before because we do have people. That's hard, but it's a reality. Yeah, that's true. Same kind of the same question, but regarding education. So you told me earlier that you are a WST instructor here in Hong Kong, how long have you been doing that? For actually a lot too long, only for one year. I okay, only for one year. Because I start to be educator, it's just like one or two years, yeah, before. Because I still haven't designed what I'm doing. Because I spend my whole time for my study for my master's for many years, so basically I have to focus only on study. I spend all my time theory, but at that moment I try to think about at that period I cannot work as a full-time because I leave my previous company because I had to focus on my studies so I cannot work as a full-time. So I have to think what can I do and I was thinking why lots I can do some education and I think it's a good thing because I don't think a lot of people they want to do that because it's just like somehow I can say if it's an educator that's kind of boring as well. Also difficult. Boring because you are a lot working on the floor because I like working on the floor to talk to the people, talk to different customers to sell my wine and doing a very creative my pairing as well. Somehow if now I'm standing in front of you and then talking about knowledge, okay boring right. Difficulty second thing if we're working as an educator, second thing how can you draw all the people's student attention is I listen to you they just but this is for us they're okay it's just very difficult to draw right you have to pretty you have to be pretty interesting enough to tell about the knowledge and to make them listen to you draw that attention otherwise everyone with the how-wave they just for us leave it and which is no good way plus you need to do it for like you need to draw attention but for a long time because I guess for your study session is like two hours or something like that sure and so it's easy it's easy to grab someone's attention for 10 minutes and being like yeah this is this place in Australia but how many is easy but then I used that for two hours it's difficult and what's the profile of people wanting to to pass wine sets here in Hong Kong. I think the profile I think could be anyone okay if our inches above why I think everyone's I've studied the opacity is not that difficult yeah except level four I cannot tell a guarantee you can pass because it's a very difficult you know yeah just have to write something yeah. Level three is become more difficult now because I think they just want to get much more closer to the opacity level four so level three and level four they become much more closer I mean talk about their content they were sharing they are much more difficult now but I always think if you pay a lot of time and understanding the knowledge I think it's okay but the most important thing for studies about how you digest those information into your memory otherwise you just trying to remember with tell learn with tell digest that information after one month you forgot naturally well okay just say where you can finally be on oh I say has it beyond oh no maybe broken it so no it's right but you realize if you go into going to the right shot and doing a bottle of the beyond by yourself take a picture and drink if somehow you get better memory I think the best way to learn is I first if you have money for me I don't have money but I always encourage people going to the Y region to take a lot by yourself drink their wine if you can buy in the market buy it drink it and take a picture and then you have much more better understanding because when you study about why if you if you're not really if you physically you a lot really know on you try those why actually you cannot have a better you cannot create a deeper memory in your in your brain so basically grab a bottle and then you remember better you know it's funny because I am I passed the WST 3 last year and I have two two different things the first the first part is sometimes I was just reading stuff right about a wine region I never went to you know like South Africa Australia whatever like it looks stunning I love the wines but I just don't know the place and makes no sense from makes no sense to me to like just a maybe like okay this is this valley this place this is the that type of climate that type of one blah blah like I just digested this knowledge to pass the exam but I think today I don't remember like 50% of it and on the other hand what you said is super true because one of the question I had during the exam was and was the difference between rosé wines from table and rosé wines from the sauce of friends wow and actually we've been to like the summer before we've been to table and we've been to the best of friends for wine tasting and so I was just like okay you know what no problem yeah I was just writing this right and like I didn't I didn't even study that yeah during the WST you know learning and stuff it's just I knew it because I've been there I've met people I've tasted the wines and so obviously it was easy it was a easy from so yeah true if you can travel to the if your money if you're and or podcast about wine it's a good excuse to do it yeah but but yeah the the thing to yeah I think is there like either travel drink and if you can't do this to just read but if you can either travel or drink the wine it's already a good start yeah really it's kind of boring yeah it's but you have youtube now basically right you have to do it yeah defense also media and our basic way can go to youtube and search the video and then it's actually much more interesting true to see the the video from the wine region don't even yeah the wild away as well you can you can follow our youtube channel if you are a student or a WST student or whatever you will have plenty of knowledge from us so yeah so that's great and you talked about wine pairing it's an important part of the of the job of somebody as well and how do you do the the wine pairing what's your recipe for wine pairing firstly you did have a menu from your chef and you're starting to think about how you're gonna pair with your wife there is a foot together always thinking if you know how to cope you do much much more better pairing you know how to cook I know how to cook since pandemic I didn't I didn't yes because I at that moment I do have anything to do and then I started to search youtube how can I cook something and then I started to sign the four enough to cook something so which is good I learn better so this I have to do I ask I keep asking like my chef how to cook these how to cook how to cook this one how to do better pastor do do do do as I try and then okay I do better I know how to cook now okay yeah after a pandemic I think during pandemic I learned but now I could cook much more better and of course okay we're talking about the pairing so firstly we received your menu I know you're always thinking about fish may go well with white wine and red meat goes well with red but somehow it's not true you think about ingredient think you did to think about different cooking method as well after cooking method with a couple of sauce is why apparently just like experimental because somehow you think the theory wise you think is right but somehow when you pair with both together there's not gonna work maybe somehow when you try like au kishon maybe some of the creamy dishes you think it's a perfect match but it's not the bitters come south and if you know like bitters they're kind of you don't like it you don't like it I call I think I think it's all about how you can how you use very brave enough to do a something crazy you never try you never know I my best suggestion is if your chef night the night wines I think it's more easier because your chef will come to try the wine and pairing might then for pairing together with you I think it's much more better because normally some of the chef they don't drink and then they just create a dish without thinking how we're gonna pair with and why it's hard to get a balance because maybe the sauce is a little bit too salty when the sauce is a little bit too spicy you cannot find a balance but if your chef like it you can just do some adjustment maybe you're gonna change my wine so that's why you can create a perfect match perfect pairing because pairing if you make it right it's just gonna be enhanced all the favor with between wine and also the ingredient itself right if you make it wrong both side they are gonna be destroyed so basically no one gonna enjoy that just like example if you want to drink ballad with oyster try and you know if there's a urr you don't like it that's the worst example that p Hong Kong I said a lot of people they Hong Kong they say oh oyster okay give me a ballad of ballad okay is this like one of the worst pairing ever yeah absolutely right just just thinking about that I'm like disgusted you know no no don't give me this no what's your what's your craziest food and wine pairing that you did not that crazy but I do a lot of interesting experimental stuff I do a orange wine with upper lonely but Chinese upper lonely I did something like dessert I do like but it's also Chinese as well I'm a milk soup with ma dera. This is very pretty interesting. And I try one thing which is super super crazy. So I do a PX with a charcoal ice cream, charcoal gelato, basically it's okay. But all PX, the cherry, yeah. The food and wine pairing with ice cream is definitely something we need to do a way more because we love ice cream and we love wine. So yeah, definitely something to do. You think it's not gonna work because sometimes it's too early for charcoal, it's too powerful when you do PX. Because PX, you've asked you, it's always a perfect combination. But if you put one more ingredient on the top, it's like, it's not really that good. But if I owe PX, you have deca-erfiedus, savory, okay? It's okay. But it's always like you try something different. You even though you think, maybe you're gonna pair with char siu, but the couple, people always think of Pino La. Right? Maybe people will think about red wine. - We go, we had this discussion with Pierre-Marie. I would, on my side, I think a German Riesling. - Yes. - The rat, this would be amazing. - Yes, I haven't done it yet. But the next char siu, I order, I take a German Riesling as well. But the most important thing, even though it's the same dish, they have different recipe. So if I'm char siu, they have different recipe as well. So we talk about the fatiness. Just char siu could be very name, - Yeah, or very fat. - Or very fat. And second thing, if you put into the honey grease, it could be a lot of honey, or nests honey. So more honey, more sweeter, nests honey, less sweeter, right? Last thing, if you see somehow, if you like char siu, you always think about how you burned, how you burn it, if you see at the edge, we have a burn edge, somehow everywhere they're different. So this taste become, create the kind of bitterness. But if you're talking about the fat-teach char siu with a very strong honey grease, Riesling always comes in. It's not an off-dry carbon-nets, especially, they're amazing, amazing pairing. This is one of the best, better than people want. I think we need to do it. Much better, I agree. We haven't done it yet, so. Yeah, but I like char siu, so that's why. I love char siu, honestly, it's there, yeah. It's my favorite, I could eat that every day, learn change in our, no problem. - Char siu, char siu. - The best. You know, I'm super integrated, I would, you know, you know, it's less than one year, but char siu is my favorite. How do you, do you have a training about wine pairing when you're studying for somebody, like somebody's certification and stuff, or is it just experimental? - Not really, but I'll tell them, I will tell them how you do better. - Okay. - As I told you before, you have to taste the food and wine together. If you like it, okay. Right? It can be, you have to be brave enough to do different things. If the wine doesn't work, change another one. Maybe somewhere which is crazy. If you, oh, I have a burgundy, char siu name or so, but it doesn't work. How about a bottle of char siu name from South Africa? Maybe okay. But somehow if you wanna create a better pairing, you always use something, maybe something more crazy. Maybe some upcoming, why region Chinese wine, why not, why from everywhere over the world? There's a lot of why from different areas, right? So we saw a lot talking about the well-developed country, of course, French wine, dominant in Hong Kong, Italian wine for sure, but talking about why from different areas, why not do you have something from Georgia, Orange wine, why not do you get a char siu name from South Africa? Why not? Right? And then they stand to understand your philosophy and then think, hey, you create something, it's pure and I haven't tried it before. I haven't seen any why from China, and you bring me a bottle of a char siu name from the insha, okay, why not? Right? They will remember you like, so last time you bring me a bottle of blah, blah, blah, and then okay, I remember you because you bring me this bottle, right? So somehow you saw about, of course, your knowledge need to be very good. This is like a backbone that you can have different choices because if you lot study enough, you don't know, wow, there's a why from Georgia, okay? We don't know. That's why from South Africa, you don't know, wow. Right? There's another why in the world. If you're not able to know, how can you sell that? If you don't know what is that, you cannot sell it. You cannot put in your wires, if you don't learn it. Hey, we have why from Bulgaria. Where is that? You don't even know Bulgaria. Okay, okay. Okay. Right? And on the other hand, I use sometimes approached by like domains or people selling wines basically and wanting to like make you be an ambassador or a bit or wanting you to like promote it on the different wine list. Actually, I'm doing a lot of, I'm helping a lot of the while we're doing, doing other master cars. Yeah, and also like a wide inner tasting as well, especially Bonnay and Jay. I'm helping them a lot in Hong Kong. Okay. So, and I think that's why I do it with D-CAM, with a steam ported, also from D-CAM as well, from D-O. So, which is pretty happy with all the dose brands, those, not the most famous brands in the world. So, I'm helping them a lot. Quite a lot. And so, how does that work? Basically, you just tell some of these like, hey guys, let's have a drink at the Silen, at 3 p.m. before your service. And I will present you this wine and we'll talk about it. But that one is not for the industry people. Okay. It's for outsider. Yeah, so tasting is like, popetizing, I service for people. Okay. Just coming in an event or something. But I always tell my so many as well, those, I think the product is pretty good. Bonnay and Jay, amazing. We talked about Audi, the best. The best champagne in the world is a one-not. We'll all talk about BBF, it's too expensive for us. Right? We don't have money. So basically, Audi, you can stay in the restaurant. Why not? Even the vintage, we're too good enough. Because I always think people sometimes say, they don't have a chance to try those products. They know the product, but they didn't try. Have I experienced to try those products? They think, they think it's no good. But if you've been as open-minded people, you actually, you can try as much as you can. Which is good, like me, I can try. I love to try something, right? So it's good. It's always amazing when you have these events. And so for the industry, how do you organize yourself for like, presenting wines to the industry? Is it something you do and how does that work? How you. Sorry, can you repeat the question? Yeah, so for example, the first time we saw you, you were. Yes. Team of somebody? Yes. How do you do that? Are you approached by domains wanting to display their wines as well? Like, how do you manage this spot? I don't really want to promote during my class. Because I want to teach them a lot of things. But after that, maybe if they want a sponsor, of course, bring that bottle with during the tasting session, in blind. So basically when I open up always, this bottle and then don't even. Because I think blind tasting is always come very important for myself to have better understanding about the wine. Because I love people that are judging about labels. If you give yell-tell, "Oh, this is a very shitty wine, yell-tell." But if you drink blinds, that's another story. When you drink, you're trying to understand more. Because we lot of thinking about the. What is. Anything on the label, right? You don't really concern about what is the price. And where's the wine confirm? We just want to try the wine blind and we've got a lot of things about what is that? So it's kind of horn-ish. Because you put in blind, then you have. Maybe some of the very commercial brands, but you put in blinds, "Oh my goodness, that's so good." If I'm painful, okay? Why not? Right? If I do something like that, I would do a blind. Okay. So let them try the wine first. Okay, so can I open, but you let them. Blind, try it on first. How is it to study for Master Somebody? It's actually very difficult, because I. I think you have an inner-fear of PA. I think it's actually a very strong candidate. I think it's the spirit of the best friend from us, but basically it's not easy. You just spend your whole life, most of the time, study. So if you want to be a Master, so many people first need to pass your advance. So many of you are already not easy. So after you pass your advance. You first need to be advanced so many. You can't go straight to the Master. You need to do step by step. So basically, there are four different stages. So basically, you just pass the I.S. and it's a difficulty. So many are. If you pass this two, and you can try advance, which is not easy. I think we have 20 people there, pass advance in Hong Kong? Yes, almost certainly. So basically after that, you might have a ticket. Because once you send your email to the court, basically you have to wait normally three years to five years for waiting. No, okay. So I get a very lucky opportunity during. And then I think most of people cannot try to learn them. So basically I try to send the email to the court, oh, can I get the position? Because I really want to try. And I'm like, oh, we have some position for you because they believe there's no one going to learn them. Maybe some are different difficulty to go there. And I would say, OK. And I try. And four years before I was in London, I tried my very first attempt. So now it's like, this year got me in my fifth year. I don't want to waste my time. But I try my best. There's a good journey. I know it's so, yeah. OK, so we hope this feature is going to be the last for you as a training master, somebody. We hope you will have this one. Derek, thank you very much. I think we did a good interview together. Is there anything we didn't mention? You wanted to mention in this interview? That's OK. OK, so if you have a team of somebody as you want to train, that Derek is here. If you know. Now you know. If you're looking to work to sell more wine, basically, you need to train your team. And for this, you need to hire the right people. I think I saw your DJ as well. Yes. I think I like music than same as the level I like wine. Because I think it's all about how you enjoy life better. It's just like a lifestyle music. That's very important in my mind. Why? Somehow it's very important in my life as well. So why not both? True. We cannot have only one thing in our journey in our life, which is kind of like I cannot say boring, but somehow we can get something as a hobby on somehow. And music is like an amazing thing, to make you relax. It's just like a perfect parlor. Yeah, together, especially when you have a difficult time. And then when you listen to someone, the music you feel OK. You feel like true. So that's why let me say true. So you can also follow Derek for his DJ work. And you mix in clubs and stuff for just for your side. For this music. I did an underground music for more than my so many years. OK. So basically I was a Russian DJ in Oma, which is I don't know if you know it or not, because that's one of the most famous underground music, like club. OK. Rod and the big EDM like club yards, very different. Because I think we relate something different. Just like so many are somehow the gap they can create, kind of like personality. Like you have wise selection, but the same time I get my music selection. Which is similar. My own philosophy. My own music selection, wise selection. My lot. True. Yeah. Derek, I have three last questions. As a conclusion for this interview, the first thing is do you have a book that you would recommend to me about wine? The best thing if you somehow is kind of boring for most of people, but I would like to recommend you to read if you like how to make wine or even understand it. The physical certification, I always recommend wine silence from Jimmy Good. It's my good friend. So basically it's pretty interesting to understand it, especially when you go to the green yard and you see all the wine. And if you don't have a lower age, you don't know what is that. Where is it? Where is your training? Where is cocktail? You don't even know. And then how can you manage the pooling or even blah, blah, blah? And then if you understand how to make wine, because a wine maker on even grower they spend their whole year for only one half or one batch. And that's if the vintage is bad, they're laughing. Yeah, it's then. So you have thoughts, you have heal, you're done. But if you understand how they make wine, it's more interesting, but I like that. Nice. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved? Taste thing, I really like the ballo of Italian wine. I love, I love. Most of people would say French wine. But you know, I just come back from Bawono. But basically I tried that Bawono is Josephine Maskelevo, 1961 from Nars to Witt in Hong Kong, with one of my best friend, Birthday, so which is incredible connection. 1961 is an absolutely legendary vintage in Bawono. And the connection otherwise absolutely amazing. Yeah, I would imagine that this is absolutely incredible. And finally, who is the next person I should interview? I always, because I was in Italy with him, I think it's a relate to recommend Charich, Charichol from Zez Hospitality, they also own Hassan Koo, a lot of very good restaurant, a lot of star restaurant from him, very lovely guy to have an interview with him. So he's also studied for his Master's in Manage, as well. So good guy from Hong Kong. Amazing. We'll definitely do it. Thank you very much, Derek. It was a very nice interview. For people watching it, I hope you enjoyed this interview as well. If you liked it, don't forget to share it, to subscribe, to send this interview to a few friends and to go have a drink to talk about it. I think it would be a nice conclusion to this episode. Derek, thank you so much. Thank you. And see you soon. Thank you. (upbeat music) Amazing. Perfect.