#105: Suze Ford

[Music] Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, making art work. We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts. The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts. The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service, does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts. The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice. Here are your hosts, Andy Heiss and Nick Petrella. [Music] Hi and thanks for joining us on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, making art work. I'm Nick Petrella and my name is Andy Heiss. Today we hear from artists Sue's Ford. Sue's has a very practical outlook on how she approaches her artistic practice as a business. Yeah and I like how she spoke about engaging and growing her patron base as well as the challenges she's had as a woman in the arts. Great so let's take a listen. Hi Sue's, thanks for coming on the show today. Thanks for having me. If you wouldn't mind, could you just start with a quick biographical sketch of yourself? Sure. So I am a resident of Lee Summit, suburb of Kansas City. I am a visual artist and I have been making art since I can remember like most artists. But I've been a professional artist for I think about 15 years now. I'm also a mother of three kiddos. So life is very busy and I run my studio practice out of my home. And that's kind of where I'm at here in life. Thanks Sue's. Was there a steep learning curve for you when you opened your studio or did you have an understanding of basic entrepreneurship prior to starting your studio? So a little bit of both. I was raised in a family with a father who was an entrepreneur and he is and has been a very successful guy. And we have a great relationship. So he from the business aspect of things was always very inspiring to me. Definitely a mentor. Never afraid to give me some good business advice. And I mean, he's a sales guy at heart. And so I definitely picked up a lot from him. And when it came to opening my studio practice, it just is something that kind of. It happened before I knew it. I guess I would say when people say, I, you know, I chose art. Well, art chose me, you know what I mean? So I was working a, actually with my father in his business. And at the same time sort of still making my art and not sure how to go about it. I really didn't know like how, how do I follow these dreams? And so really what got my jump start was I started to do art fairs. So I got some mentorships from a few different artists in the community that were doing art fairs. And our fair artists were basically to me that was, that was more achievable. I guess I would say it was something that I felt like I could grasp. You know, a lot of people have that dream of the gallery, which we can dive into later that the gallery is the light at the end of the tunnel. It's going to be what's going to blow my career up sort of thing. Why did you think that that was an easier start? Is it the time limit of an art fair? It just seemed practical. It was something that was in my hands, something that I could do. So I, you know, I had to build a body of work and send in an application. And either I got accepted or I didn't. It felt more like I had more control over that in a sense. I was supposed to, I'm mailing like a portfolio out back in the day, right? You're mailing slides or, you know, you're mailing images and you're, you know, it's like you're throwing a dart at a dart board, you know, your hope and then it sticks and you're hoping somebody says, oh yeah, we like what you do. And we're going to make you famous, you know, like that just that that seemed more like a dreamboat to me rather than something that I could just get to work and do myself. Yeah, that makes sense. There's more of a direct line. You can see how that works, right? There's rather than, as you said, just kind of putting a bunch of things out there. Yeah. And so how are you, how are you able to sustain your art practice? I'm laughing. This is funny. So I get it in wherever I can. And currently I have found I wake up really early in the morning. So I wake up at five every morning. And I sort of have my morning routine. I do morning writing, morning devotional. I get ready. And then I get my studio, me and whatever crickets are rounding here. And I get to work. So I like getting work done before I'm being asked by children to do things. So it's where I can have peace and quiet in a clear mind. And there's something about the morning. You just wake up. I don't know. I wake up refreshed. I wake up, you know, when I'm taking a shower, I've got all these ideas. And then it's like, I go to my studio and I'm just, I'm ready to go. And I get it in wherever I can. So I guess that's the answer to that. It's not easy. It's honestly, it's the hardest thing ever. It's to balance being a mom. Being a wife. And running a business. And and not just, you know, everybody thinks the dreamy part of, oh, I'm just creating and I'm playing in paint. I'm doing all these things all day. And then it's like, well, somebody has to share it. Somebody has to market it. Somebody has to pack it. Somebody has to list it on your website. I mean, I can go through all the these hats that I wear. And someday is I think I'm, I'm loony. Like I'm going to lose it. So as you bring up an interesting point, being an artist in any art form typically isn't an easy path. Do you think there are additional challenges for women in the arts? And if so, what are they? And and how can those listening to this podcast prepare for those changes? Well, when you ask that question, I think of some different seasons of my life. I first of all think of college. So I went to a university, Southern Methodist University in Dallas. Excellent art program. In fact, two, I'd say, well, two or three of my biggest mentors were men, male artists that were definitely very encouraging of me. And I have things I learned from them that I used to this day. But I will say when I was in college, it very much felt like it was, especially when it comes to painting, I will say it's funny that different mediums are different ways. But it felt like a man's world. It felt like if I wasn't a guy wearing all black and combat boots, I, you know, I wasn't, I don't know, I wasn't a contender. I wasn't taken seriously maybe. But I will say aside from that, I did have very special relationships with one artist in particular, Bill Commodore, who is an amazing painter. And he's passed away, learned so much from him. He just so happened to be an artist and he was pre-med for a while in college. And I actually was as well, which is totally weird fact about me. So back then, yeah, I felt like a lot of things were about men in the arts and, you know, some of the big, I would say alumni from as the new that were artists that would come back and they'd still have their paintings hanging around the university were all men. I in particular can't really remember one woman, to be honest. So then let's fast forward to, you know, from then, okay, one caveat to back then, I also remember some comments being made that as a woman, I was making art and things were very much abstract like me work now. But I had like this thing with cocoons. I don't know. It was just a thing that I was sorting out and they were very symbolic to me. And I had somebody tell me, oh yeah, well, you're making that pod art. And every woman does go through that pod art phase. And I was like, what is he even, what's that even me? like so anyway just a little side note there but as I got older and of course it's fast forward to I started doing art fairs there's a lot of women that do art fairs and I I became friends Kansas City and the art fair community even on the road so you meet people in other cities and they are always very encouraging but I was pretty young when I started for an art fair artist to start traveling and I decided to start a family and I remember when I was first pregnant with my first child and a male artist that I know saw me and asked me and he goes oh nice knowing you as an artist and I was like whoa that was super offensive like and maybe you didn't even realize it like the way it just came out of this mouth and he had kids right but apparently the I don't know responsibilities and load are different when you decide to have a family but yeah he was like oh yeah once you start having kids your art career there there goes that and I was just like wow yeah I mean I obviously I remember and that was 10 years ago that stood out to me so yeah I think there's definite challenges especially it depends what you choose in life but when you choose to be a mom I think no matter what your profession is it's challenging I mean yeah do you still run into that um do I um it's funny because now so since things have sort of changed and I don't physically do art fairs anymore um I have an amazing supportive community that I have tapped into online that actually is women and not just women but mostly I'd say 90% are moms and so I find it really supportive actually online maybe even more so in person because some of my relationships with other artists have sort of distance since I became a mom there's a lot of artists out there that don't have children and a lot of them don't have children because they did almost they just made different choices when I did and they just choose to chose to not have families because they were pursuing their art and they were traveling and you know kids don't really work into that equation or you know what not and so um but specifically I have a friend that started a community called it's called carve out time for art and um it's start on an Instagram and it's all um it's catered more towards women moms who are carving out time for art and um which I don't want to exclude men that are dads and working artists as well um I think they're kind of in the same vote too but so um I don't I don't find as much discrimination I don't think it's just you have a lot more challenges I mean I did art fairs when I was pregnant and high-risk pregnancies and um I'm literally um with my first pregnancy was at going to an art fair in St. Louis I was 30 weeks pregnant in my waterbrook and I didn't know it because it was my first child so I didn't really know what was happening and uh yeah I ended up in a hospital with uh pre-rupture uh yeah because I'm an art fair oh you know I left I was like why I gotta do the show so anyway just kind of a funny story um but but yeah I don't know um I think uh our challenges are just basically our life choices these days you know sure yeah thanks for sharing that yeah uh you have a you have a pretty robust website online store um is that something you sort of built over time or did you make that a strategic decision to build that out uh so that here we go so this is um this is a big thing because um this is a big subject you know as for artists do I put that shopping cart on my website do I not is that selling out um because I will tell you that there's a lot of people in the fight art community that still hold that old school thing that they want to be mysterious and um and uh I don't know it's like it's like oh well you know I don't want to put my pricing out there um I don't want to put everything so um personally the days of portfolio websites are um you know that's cobwebs that's that's old old old stuff in my opinion um so I decided to make that leap um gosh when did I put that shopping cart on there it's been over 10 years ago okay so um for me um just because of my entrepreneurial background like working with my dad understanding business um and understanding people's um habits right when you go to a website and you click how long are you gonna wait until you can figure out how you're gonna buy it 15 seconds 30 30 seconds would be a steep steep amount of time right right right so if I want to make spells I need to make it as easy as possible right yeah so that's where that came in so that's an interesting point did you hear from many colleagues in in your field about that shopping cart or yeah I mean there's lots of things that I can I can recall whenever you there's different types of artists right and if you're going to be a fine artist then then yeah there's certain things that um some people just feel like they they just won't do like I I know certain people literally they're like we will not have a website we're on an art fair you they're by here you buy now or you don't buy it all and and to me I'm like well that doesn't make a whole lot of sense um so yeah I mean definitely there were comments for sure for sure like you know or or um even so much as if you do anything a little bit on the commercial side for example even okay the Plaza Art Fair right so a few years ago I can't remember which year it was to be honest um I was asked to be the featured artist for the Plaza Art Fair and I remember sitting around a table of other art fair artists and one artist in particular who was very much tries to really hold strong to that fine art aspect and I think this artist in particular probably still does not have a shopping cart probably doesn't even really have an online presence um like if you share to Facebook like that says sin or if you're on instagram like oh you know anyway so um that particular artist was like I've been asked to be a featured artist for this show in that show and I won't do it I'm not gonna have my work on a t-shirt I'm not gonna have my work on a banner like that's not you know and I'm sitting there thinking well that's opportunity right but you know we all make our choices yeah and how does that person sell art and is it a is it a limited approach it sounds like it um very limited because what I've learned is diversifying is key and why why pigeonhole yourself into just one little sector when I think um there's people all around that would probably love and appreciate the work so why hide it if people don't know you're making it um then they're not gonna buy it so you got to let them know somehow yeah and that segway's nicely into the next question how do you engage and grow your patron base um so uh I made a conscious decision um several years ago that I was going to get on instagram and um I was gonna make a full pursuit at doing that and I didn't know how people got big followings on there but all I knew is I saw people were doing it and at this point in time I had I think two kids at this point and uh or maybe I was pregnant with a second and um I was like I can't travel anymore like I mean it could limitedly but is that really ideal and I thought to myself I mean why would I travel if I don't have to for me traveling can be fun let's I'm not going to take anything away from that um there's a lot of risk in it uh financially um you can pay tons of money to go to a big show and you can zero you know so you're losing money right and um so I just made a decision that I was gonna first of all I already had my website already made the decision to do that shopping card and so. So I was like, I'm going to try this. I'm going to see how I can market social media wise. So Instagram has been big for me. I have not only engaged with the community there. It's more of a community. I don't want to say even patrons or I hate, honestly, using that word client sometimes are customers. Because my work is so personal. We build a relationship. It's not all about cell, cell, cell. It's about sharing. It's about sharing your heart. It's about sharing what you're doing. People love to see your process. And people, I think, see more value in what you do when they are able to see behind the scenes, see what goes into what you're doing, see how hard you're working, and that sort of thing. So I engage my patrons, as you said, that way. And I also, I consciously build an email list. And I am not a huge-- I don't send out a lot of emails, but I definitely make my clients feel special that they're on my list. And I appreciate that they've committed to being on my list because that inbox is a sacred place. I mean, how many times do you just unsubscribe to all of these emails? And so I want to bring value. So if I'm going to send an email, I'm going to give you value. I'm going to give you first looks at what I'm doing. You're going to have a first opportunity by a collection when it's released. You're going to have all that insight information because I value that you've decided to follow me. And so I just-- I want to provide value for that relationship. Yeah, very good. So the answer to this next question should prove insightful to young artists. How do you price your works? That is a very, very popular question. So there's not a formula. People want to give a formula. And I laugh at the formulas. And they're like per square inch, or if you're a musician or whatever, I mean, I'm sure you guys all have your little formulas. It go around to you where people chat about-- basically what I did when I started selling my work is I looked at what the market was at. So I looked at people that were making similar work to me. And I saw what they were pricing at. Now, if this person was a veteran in the art community, I wasn't going to price my work as high as a veteran because I haven't built to that place. So I think when you start, you want to start somewhere reasonable. You don't want to out price yourself, or you're not making sales. So to me, you start in a place that feels good and feels comfortable. What do you feel like your time right now? What do you want to see? When I sell this thing, how am I going to feel when I sell it? I'm going to feel like I lost or I'm going to feel like I won. And if I'm producing so much work that my studio was filled, then I want to price to sell. I'm not priced here to build a museum in my home. I want people to enjoy what I'm making. So if you start low and you start moving work, then more people are going to have your work. More people are going to tell people about your work. They're going to see it. And so that's a good way to really start pushing and getting your work out there. And then as you start building your business, then if you find, well, me and I can't keep up with the demand, well, then you got to raise your pricing a little bit, right? Supply and demand. So you raise your pricing a little bit. Now here's the thing, too, is you have to have integrity with your pricing and you have to be consistent. So I can't sell a painting to you, Nick, for $100. And then I sell it to my neighbor for $50. That's not fair. First of all, it's not fair to you and it devalues your work, right? So I want you to know that when you buy my artwork, the value is going to go up. OK, we're not going back down. We're staying the same and we're increasing slowly. So you start to see a return on your investment. You see value in what I'm doing. You see respect. The only time really, I mean, I occasionally will do collectors discounts for certain things. I have people that, oh, I'm just a ridiculous amount of my work. Some days I'm like, do they have any space left? And I love it. I appreciate it. No, don't get me wrong. But so collectors discounts, there's no harm in that, just to make your collectors feel appreciated. Definitely, I do not, I very rarely do do sales on original work occasionally. Maybe I'll do sales on my cards or prints, but very rarely because I really want the value to stay strong in my originals. And I do that for my clients. But I will say I made a huge sort of-- I kind of broke my rule this year. I did a decade sale this year. So I had a lot of pieces. My work has evolved a lot over the years. And so I had a lot of pieces that I held onto. And I hemmed in hot about this for a really long time, because I said, do I do this? Do I not? And then I said, then COVID happened. Hello. And I had already planned my sale. I was like, I'm going to do it. I committed. And I started talking about it on social media. This is coming. Well, next thing you know, people are out of work, COVID hit. I was trying to launch a new website. I'm like, this timing is just terrible. But anyway, I did the sale. It was up for a limited amount of time. And this was not my newer work. This was all work that was like 15 years older or an up. And it felt good because I had had pieces that I-- I had-- there was just special ones I had held onto. And I'm like, well, do I really need all this work? Because I'm not enjoying it. I basically have it stored at this point for whatever reason. I don't know for retro spec when I'm 90. I don't know. And so I just was like, you know what? I know people that would love this work. And I'm going to get it out there. So I discounted it. And I did a sale. It was up for I think a week. And whatever I sold, it sold. And then I took the sale down. It was done. So it was not a-- it was like a one-time celebration thing. Celebrating being a business. Celebrating. Where was that? Just trying to pay for the blessings that I've been given. And it was just-- it was something that felt good to do. Sure. Yeah. And I think all rules I think are being broken right now. There are no rules to follow when it comes to how people are dealing with the pandemic. What's something artists tend to overlook when they are selling their art? Oh, gosh. Yeah. Well, the practicality things. You have to-- like let's just not even-- OK, first we'll talk about the business side of things. You have to-- first of all, we talked about integrity with your pricing, consistency with your pricing. You have to have strong communication skills. A lot of artists are introverted. And might have challenges with communicating. But you just got to get ripped that bandaid and you get better at it. Packing, shipping. I mean, in fact, I had some of the other day like asking me about packing and shipping. And it's something you have to learn along the way. So you start to learn, well, I probably should be consistent with my side thing. So that will help me. So I can buy my packaging in bulk. And then I can ship that way. I've learned bigger pieces. So they're insured and everything. I have somebody pack and ship professionally and insure all of my larger pieces. My smaller stuff, I handle myself. So yeah, I mean, that, you got to track your taxes, your expenses, your taxes, all that. So my photographing. You have to photograph your work. You have to document your work, especially if you want to do reproductions. Yeah, gosh, the list is just so long. Sure. Yeah. Do you copyright all of your works? And do you have to send those photographs to USPTO? Oh, my lord. If I did that, I don't think I would accomplish anything. I do not. But my understanding-- and I am not a lawyer-- legality wise is that an artist automatically retains copyright once things are created and made. so you don't have to do that. Now, if a lawyer was sitting here, they probably smack me upside that and say, well, that's ridiculous. And you absolutely need to protect yourself better than that. The problem is, is I am so prolific with my work, believe it or not, three kids. I mean, I don't know how, but I create a lot of work. And so-- It's quiet in your studio. Right. Yeah, because he's upstairs. And he's playing with his Nana. So-- Now, that's why you're so prolific. Right. Oh, yeah. It's quiet in your studio. Yeah, so nap times and weekends when my husband's around. And yeah, so I just-- so I don't know how to keep up with that, which gets into the whole-- I know you guys were asking about art licensing, which is kind of a leeway to that. I have friends that do art licensing. And I have never-- I've been approached about it, but I've never found the right situation to actually do it. And for me, I've always focused more on originals. I made the decision about-- I want to say five or six years ago to actually salary productions, but until then I did all originals. That was kind of my thing. And it was probably a little bit prideful of me to be honest. And it's one of those deep-seated lessons that I was taught by some of these elite artists that I love dearly, but they just have a different way of looking at things. And they were always very anti-print, anti-reproduction. And I kind of got over myself. And you have to put the ego aside. Like, well, not everybody can afford an original. Although I try to make my originals, I do small ones to make them affordable. But you kind of have to think that not everybody has a big budget. And I didn't decide to do prints to get rich. I decided to do prints to make some of my work more accessible to people who loved it that I know couldn't afford it. So it was a big decision though. But art licensing wise, I mean, you're going to make money on that in volume. So art licensing-- I have friends that work with big companies. There's one in particular, minted, is one where artists apply. And they submit their work. And they make a very small cut for what's sold. And so the only way that you're going to make a lot of money is that you have a lot of images out there. And they're selling a lot of them. It's a volume. It's a volume-based thing for the most part. I'm sure there's exceptions to that. Rules, there are some people that artists that are very well sought after. And they've got huge names. And probably when they license their stuff, they make big deals, big contract deals. But for the majority of artists, I think, those numbers are kind of small. So you have to make them big by volume. Sure. And your reproductions do limited editions. Do you just do them on demand or-- I do them on demand. And that was a business decision. So when you decide to do reproductions, you can make two choices. You can go, well, maybe three. You can have a local printer or whatever printer you find. Make you prints. You send them the images and you say, hey, make me 10 of each, or whatever you decide to do. And then you get the prints and then you sell them. You can also do a print on demand where people order prints. And then the order goes directly to a printer and the printer fulfills that for you. I chose the third choice, which is I print my own prints. So I invested in a large format printer. And I did this for multiple reasons. One being a business decision that I didn't want to carry a whole bunch of inventory. So I, getting into the print market, I didn't know what was going to sell. And to be completely honest, prints are something that I don't focus on and I don't talk a lot about. So there's room for me to grow as far as sales-wise with reproductions. But when I'm working and I'm sharing in my studio, I'm more tempted to share this painting I'm working on or the silk that I'm painting or whatever it is, whatever the thing is. And so I just kind of-- I don't keep it in my vocabulary a lot to mention that I sell prints. So that's kind of a-- just being transparent. That's something that I should probably do more. So anyway, so I also like having my own printer because then I have control over my images. So I can test print, I can tweet colors, I can-- if somebody comes to me and they're like, can you do this? I have this really weird size. Can we happen to try to make this size work? And then I'll be like, sure. Let me see what I can do. Let me see if I can crop some of my pieces. I can crop some. I can't. But anyway, so yeah, I like having control over that. I also-- I tested tons of papers. And let me tell you, it is-- it's a lot. I'm not going to lie. Doing your own printing is a lot. But once you get the right paper and the right images and you get it all set up, you're pretty good to go. I made the mistake of this year deciding to switch a paper and switch my canvas both. And I was on the phone with Canon, which is my printer company. Oh, I mean, there were multiple three-hour long phone calls, let's just say. But huge shout-outs at Canon for their customer service, because they tolerate me when I call. So anyway. Changing gears here. With the development and prevalence of technology, it's made it very easy to transfer information. In that context, do you think artists are at risk of losing their uniqueness? That is such a good question. I think it can happen, but I think it's a choice. So this is what I mean. A lot of times, especially in social media world, and I will just speak on-- well, Instagram and the newest TikTok. Let's not forget TikTok, which is-- that's a whole other conversation. But things can feel very insesitial. I will see an artist. And we won't even say just artists. Let's say bloggers, photographers, where I see somebody. And I think, wow, what they're doing is amazing. And next thing you know, I'm scrolling. And I see somebody else that their stuff is looking awfully similar. They're shooting the same. They're styling the same. I mean, in Instagram, it's all about the style, beautiful photos, right? And nothing wrong with that. Because honestly, they look great. They show your work great. Be professional. Put your suit on and show your best, right? So I'm off for that. But it happens where there's a lot of artists that I think-- I think it's a natural thing that happens, though. If you don't step away from technology, I think if you're digesting it too much, and you're looking for your inspiration in your phone or on Pinterest, and you're not looking within yourself and within the world, I think that there starts to become a problem, whether you're intentional about it or not. I mean, I think it just happens. Now, there are some people that I'm sure very much so see a successful person. And they're like, I want a piece of that. And they don't see that they have that success within them. And they think that they have to do it like that person, and which is really sad. Because I think we are all given unique gifts. And you have to get to a point in your life where you see that just because someone has success does not mean that they're first of all taking away from your success. And second of all, that that thing is for you and to become jealous because jealousy can just-- there's no good that comes from jealousy. So it's the comparison game. So yeah, with technology, there's a lot of things that I think you have to be really cognizant about. And if you really want to grow your own work and you really want to be authentic, and you really want to express that voice that God gave you, then I think you have to do a lot more inner work. and physical hands-on, making creating, and not so much looking at the phone. Those are all really good points, which leads me to my next question. How do you remain creative? So I have this being, it's a Chuck Close quote, and I will probably say it wrong, but it's some people look for inspiration, and other people just get up and go to work. And that's me. No matter what mood I'm in, whether I'm not feeling great, whether I'm overwhelmed, whether, no matter what the thing is, I create. I don't let excuses get in the way of creating. So maybe I make something really crappy, but that's okay. Maybe I make something and I paint an entire painting that gets completely covered the next day, and that's okay. But that's the way that I stay focused on what I'm doing. And then the other thing that I do is, so I started working on other mediums, and I find that, so oil painting, I guess I just haven't mentioned this, but I was a painting major in college, but I was equally could have been a printmaking major or a ceramics major. But painting, I started oil painting at the Kansas City Art Institute when I was 15 years old. And I went to public school where they wouldn't let you oil paint. And so my parents got me in a class, young. In fact, my first bigger class I gave out, about fell on the floor. I don't think I was quite prepared for nude art quite back then. But I did it. And there was other teenagers in the class, you know, people, and it was not that kind of funny. So I've always, oil has been like my first love. And so it will always be a part of me. It'll always be that first love. But I taught myself to work in silk about four or five years ago. And so I do silk painting, which in turn is made into clutches. And I do mix media stuff on paper. I also, at Christmas time, paint ornaments. I paint on vans tennis shoes now. But oh, I just started painting ceramic cups. And I'm actually going to be doing a collaboration with a ceramic artist, which is super exciting. So all these different mediums feed together and they're fuel. Like, you know, I work on my oils one morning. And then in the afternoon, I go and work on a silk. And then I also, I design products to, while I design all my greeting cards and from original art that I design all those as well. And so all these different creative things that I do, the work just starts to, I don't know, it starts communicating. It's like, if you look at one, one painting and you try to make that one painting to find you, it's just not the whole picture. And I feel like when you look at the whole body of everything, it starts to create this story and this language. And it's just cool how art can become. You have an oil painting, which is looked at more prestigious and archival and all these things. But then, oh, I can have my cup that I painted. And I can use it. I can have a drink from it and it's intimate. And then I can have my clutch that I carry and I can show people and it's fun and fashion. So it's like all these different things just kind of come together to create this, I don't know, I guess who I am. It's a really thoughtful approach. Yeah, so that's what inspires me, you know? Yeah. Why not? Absolutely, it makes sense. You add value to the areas of your life where maybe people don't think about adding value. Like a mug, for example. Most people see it very utilitarian, but if you can, why not, as you said, why not have it be something beautiful that you can enjoy? Yeah. Yeah. And it's accessible. Some people are very much intimidated by buying a oil painting. I'm about to do a commission, a meeting right now for people, these people that have never done anything like this ever before in their life. And so they're taking that leap. But some people are, you know, they're intimidated to take that leap. Some people are intimidated not knowing what pricing is. That's back to pricing again. Put that pricing out there because a lot of people will just be too terrified because they'll say, well, I can't afford that. Really, they might be able to, but they don't know so they're not going to ask. Right. You know, for sure. Yeah. So I like things being accessible for everybody, right? We all deserve to have beautiful things. Absolutely. And think that bring us joy. You did the artist ink program in 2009. Could you first tell us a little bit about that program and then, maybe to talk about what impact it had on you as an art entrepreneur? Yeah, that was huge. And so I had started doing art fairs back then. And I had an amazing group of artists like. I just, I had, I hit them the gold pot with that group of artists that I was with. I mean, very prominent names in Kansas City were in my group. And I was the young cat back then. So I was younger and more green and, you know, I just have some success. So I, you know, I was feeling kind of like excited about that. And the art fairs were going really well. And, but me and just amazing friendships, relationships, mentorship. Those people to this day. I probably haven't talked to many of them in years. But if I reached out, I don't think it would feel weird because it's just this bond that we created. And people go different places in life. But I don't know. It's like, it's like, it was like camp like we held bomb in, you know, we bonded over the, the bonfire. So that was amazing. And then just really, it gave me focus. I think it, it gave me focus. It made things feel achievable. It gave me ideas. It gave me confidence. And then a lot of practical advice to you. Got me used to talking about my art. How do I verbalize what I do? How do I do that elevator speech? How do, how do I handle this legal thing? And what's our write off and what's not? And some of those just like practical things that artists don't know. I got to learn really early on. And it's an amazing program. There's actually different levels of it too now. I'm curious to know. So you took, you did that program as a practicing artist. I teach similar things to students who are in college. I'm wondering if maybe you think, and I might be priming your answer here. Is there a difference between teaching those types of principles to say a 22 year old versus someone who's kind of out and doing it? Well, I think there's something to say for someone that's gotten out there and, you know, pulled up their bootstraps and like gotten knocked down. And there's so much to say for that. In fact, did a little TikTok video the other day where it was not my, my quote or my, my sound on the video, but it was talking about failure. And how this girl was talking about her dad every day would ask them what they had failed at. And I was like, I'm not going to point it if they didn't have anything to say. And one day she said, well, I did this thing and I did really terrible. And he was like, that's awesome. And I think you have to look at failure like that. Because when you get out and you just try, you learn so much. Like, there is so much in my brain that sometimes I just. I don't even know how it's all in there. And I'm like, well, how do you know this about, about Instagram and how do you know that or how do you know this? And I'm like, I don't know. Like I just figured it out. And I think there's something to say that sometimes you just got to, it doesn't happen overnight. It's, you know, what kind of life do you want to build? And if you want to build something that's longstanding and has a solid foundation, I just don't think. You know, sure, there's exceptions. Some people get it overnight. Some people go quote unquote viral. That's not my story. And I'm actually thankful that it's not my story. Because every single failure and every single piece of the things that I've done, I've learned from. And then I changed. I've grown. And so, yeah, there's something to say. about that. But at the same time, like the group that you're, you know, you, you teach and you're mentoring and all these things, there's so much that you can prepare them for. That they didn't give me when I was in school. My one professor did a out of four years of college gave a 45 minute lecture on the business of art. Like really? And that's when this whole thing, I think, instills in people that, you know, if you're, you're true, you're craft and all these different things, then if you start thinking practically about business and marketing and selling yourself that you're selling out. And it's like, no, I'm making a living out what I love. Would I rather be working a job that I'm completely unhappy? Or do I want to make a living around this guest that I've been given? What do you think? Yeah, it's a great perspective. And I often describe it to students as, you know, if you're whatever $10 an hour job or whatever, what is it you could be doing that's going to probably pay at least $10 an hour and advance your artistic practice or your vision of who you want to be? Yeah. So I think I think that's that's really good way of saying it. Amen to that. What do you think are key elements to a vibrant arts ecosystem? And what are Kansas City's strengths? And what would you say maybe we're lacking in a little bit? Well, after going through the artist's ink program, I started to be coming more integrated into the art community and started feeling more like a participant rather than an observer. And I think that's something that you have to take initiative of. I think you also need to be authentic with building relationships and not having an ulterior motive. Not everything's about networking, you know, not everything is about what you're going to get out of it. And I think the more that we give, the more that comes back to us when we least expect it. And then I don't think that's why you participate in your community is to see what you can get back. So I think Kansas City, if you want to be a participant, then you have to participate. You know, there's grants out there. I know, I mean, I personally have never applied for a grant because when I started my business, I just looked at it in a practicality time, time ways where, you know, I have an art that I can sell. Okay, there's a lot of people that do installation art, you know, musicians right now are probably really struggling because, you know, venues aren't open, different things like that. So you kind of have to think about people that don't have a soluble item like I do. So I, instead of taking my time to put on an application for a grant from me, it was more practical to go paint and sell a painting. Rather than throwing again, just throwing my application in the pile and hoping that I would get something. So I've never, I've never really taken advantage of those opportunities, but they're there. There's studios, space opportunities. First Friday's, I used to be a bigger part of that. Mom, life and now COVID, that's all really changed. The last big show I had was at the Lady Volkis and that was 2016, I want to say. So it was like four years ago. And that show took a lot out of me. It was a big venue and big pieces and lots of them. And so that was a lot. That was heavy. But good. It was good to do it. But anyway, so I think it's like anything, you're going to get what you want out of it. If I would say one thing that I feel is because I have, first of all, I would say I don't feel as much community with, as I do online with moms that are artists or parents, let's say parents that are artists. Because one of my very good friends is a stay-at-home dad and artist. So we're in the same boat. He's just the dad and I'm the mom. So I don't know how much support I feel for family. And maybe they're out there. Maybe I just am not aware. I'm too busy trying to do all the things to find the right resource. So I would say maybe, I don't feel as much community as far as parents, parents, and artists. The other thing I would say is I don't feel like there's as many people that are in touch with the potentials of online marketing and social media marketing. Sometimes it feels like what's going on in this city is very much in person. And I mean, I can think of multiple artists that are working and they're doing things, but they're completely out of touch with online. And maybe there's not as many people that are participating. Maybe there's not as many people teaching that. But I mean, that's where everything's gone. And if you're not in the boat now, you need to be and you should have in, but we can't do anything about should have in. But yeah, I mean, if you're avoiding social media for whatever reason that is, I think it's a mistake. You know, you have to keep balance. But so I don't know. It's just funny when I think about artists in the community and people who are having success online, it's very minimum compared to the people, the friends that I've in community. I have that are in other cities and states like for whatever reason. And again, not that I know everyone and not that I know what everybody's doing, but just in, I mean, I'm pretty integrated with with social media. So so, so the last three questions are questions we asked to all all the interviewees. And the first one is what advice would you give others wanting to become an arts entrepreneur in your art form? Don't give up. Work every day. If you want it bad enough, it takes hard work. And don't let you know, feeling defeated or disappointment or rejection keep you from doing what you feel in your heart. Because it's your life and nobody else's. And don't listen to people that laugh at you and oh, you make a living doing that or you can, you know, just don't listen to discouragement. I would say because it's, it's possible. And you're capable. But you have to want it. So don't make an excuse. You're going to work hard at it. Like you work hard at any job and you'll probably work harder because you love it. And yeah, I mean, just do what you feel. I think don't do what's right for someone else. Do what's right for you. That's great advice. What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience? Share. There's so much value in sharing. Sharing and not just online. And of course, online share, like, comment. Just because you're sharing, doesn't mean you're creating competition for yourself. You know, I can be an abstract painter and cheer on my other abstract painter friends. I can be there for them. I mean, that's the biggest thing is I don't, you know, people are really quick to share like their favorite paragings they just bought or this new gadget they got in their kitchen. But these artists are entrepreneurs. They're small businesses. They're people with families a lot of times or people trying to support themselves. And yeah, help them. It's free. It's free to share. Talk about it. Share it. If you can afford it by the city, by the print, or a set of cards, it doesn't have to be anything huge if you have some sort of budget. But yeah, or just encourage people. Be positive. You know, acknowledge when they do something cool that it is cool, that it's beautiful. And, you know, cheer them on. Very good. What's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice anyone has ever given you? God, I don't even know what to say. There's so much. I mean the biggest thing I think is is working hard and not making excuses. I mean, it's pretty basic. I so recently I was on TikTok and I had posted a video and it was just kind of mocking some of the funny things that people say to you as an artist and one of them was like, are you a starving artist and I'm like, no, do you make a living at that? Yes. And so there was some people that commented and there was some people that you know, so they've been really trying and they're really frustrated and they want to make a living and they want that life and it's hard. Let me tell you, my heart just like went out to these people and I just I just keep going back to like just don't give up. Just keep going keep trying and work hard. You know, maybe don't watch Netflix as much. Go sit down with your with your Pad of paper and write a song, but write a sentence. Start with that. Write a word. Just start somewhere and just get started and and then don't quit because if you quit, then you've already failed. So the only way you're gonna succeed is to keep going and but ever that looks like just make sure that you're working towards the life you want to live. You know, if you don't want to work really long hours, then you don't and you're working nights and whatever then you don't become OB doctor, right? So build the life you want to live that makes sense since I decided to build a family. I'm not gonna work on the road anymore. Like that's a decision I wanted to make for me. So while you're trying to build this life, make sure that it lines up with your values and and your vision of where you want to be. You know, don't don't build a life that is so demanding that you can't keep up with. You know, or you know, I have a friend and she's super super successful and she's an artist and she was pregnant and and was telling me that she was just very stressed out because she was afraid because her family depends on her living at this point so much and that was like a huge burden and she was really having a hard time and and it just comes back to that like you have to you have to make sort of decisions on what you want in life and you know, maybe then you scale back your life a little bit when you don't make your financial burden so heavy and maybe you do give yourself a little more times. You don't have to work as much and these sorts of things and I think you just have to, you know, it's a push and pull. You've got to figure out your balance and always always put your health before everything. Don't overextend yourself or your I personally have been through that. You have to you can't work so hard that you're running yourself in the ground either. You gotta find the right spot. That's that's all great advice. Thank you so much for joining us today. You're welcome. It's been great. Yep. Thanks for sharing your story and some advice. Of course. Yeah, thank you guys. Thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please subscribe. Visit arts entrepreneurshippodcast.com to learn more about our guest and how you can help support artists, the arts and this podcast. [BLANK_AUDIO]