#105 - Pierre-Marie Pattieu: inside the life of a Master Sommelier

Hello, Pyonghari. Hello, hi. How are you? Good. Thank you very much for being with us today. So before starting this episode, I need to thank Arno. We, in the previous episode of this podcast, we recommended you as the next guest. And so we sent you a message. And here we are today. Thank you very much for bringing some pastry. Between French people, it's a tradition. Very early in the morning, I guess, better than champagne this time. I know if it's better than champagne, but it's OK. So yeah, thank you very much for this. Yeah, sure. Obviously, we're going to talk about a lot of things around Master Somelier about Jackson Family Wines, all the things that you do. But before that, can you start by introducing yourself? Yes, of course. So first, thank you for having me. I think it's a great opportunity. It's going to postcast to share a little bit of insight to see what we do and get to know each other. So my name is Pyonghari Pature. I'm from France, I'm from South of France. And I've been in Hong Kong for almost eight years. So originally, I'm from the South. So I was born in Avignon. And I grew up in a little town between Avignon and Niem. And so that I think where I start to get the love of food and wine surrounding by food, wine, cooking, and that kind of thing. It's a good place in France to go for another good thing. And a good weather too. So then I moved to-- so from France, I went to school in Nisse. So that's to specialize in hospitality, so cooking, waiting, housekeeping, everything. And of course, focused on wine, on a last year. And along the years of my study, I was lucky to work in different areas of the world. With this school, I got the chance to go to Korsica, to Spain, to some places in South of France, to work there, to learn there, and to really start my whole hospitality experience. So that was pretty tough at the beginning. Then I moved to-- we're going to go a bit more detail later, but I moved to England. I was a little bit less than 20 years old to learn English. The whole idea was to go there for six months, but then I stayed over there for 10 years. And I started to work for Jackson Family as you mentioned about 12 years ago. So when I moved to Hong Kong, I was already working for Jackson Family. And here I am. So overall, I'm a basic Hong Kong for Jackson. But really, my role is to go around Asia, so all across the region, to represent the wine, to do a lot of training about the Jackson Family, about the wine, who have a big portfolio of wine from all around the world. And really, the focus will be on Somalia, and to help the wineries to be recognized in some of the best places, fine dining, restaurant, Michelin Star, five-star hotel, all around Asia. So that's pretty much what I do. And so since you were a kid, you were passionate about food and wine. And so this is why you wanted to start this kind of education? Yeah. I mean, I don't know exactly when I had the click, but at some point, it must be around 12, 13 years old. In France, you have to choose what job you want to do, around 13 years old, to choose this, which is pretty early. But it is what it is. I wanted to work in a fine dining restaurant to be met with you. So I always wanted to be on the front of house. I love eating. I love cooking. But professionally, it's a bit more difficult. So I guess that came from my family background. I mean, I don't want to be the boring guy. We say, "I'll learn how to cook because of my grandmother." Blah, blah, blah. It's not boring. It's amazing. It's the same story from everyone. But let's say on my mom's side, she was all about cooking and about setting up nice table when we received guests and so on. And on my dad's side, he was more about opening nice butter from the cellar. And I guess being born in that, he came naturally. So I decided to go for the hospitality school. Yeah, nice, which is in the east of France, where the far from where I come from was the best option. So I decided to go there and did all the program for six years in school. So it was pretty good. OK. So it was not a specific event or something like that. It was more something around you. I think there's a whole process of growing up in this thing. I mean, in my area, you have a lot of vineyards around. So I used to go cycling in a vineyard without realizing it was vineyard. And so it's always been part of it. Everyone at home was drinking wine on a daily basis. Not the greatest wine in the world, but it's part of what we do. Yeah, of lunch dinner. So I guess we like every good French kids we drunk wine with a little bit of what's out in my young. So that kind of helped us to understand the project and also the culture. Because again, wine, I mean, it's now a speciality, but it's just a link to share at the table or during a tasting or some events. But one, it's about pleasure. So it's always nice to work in a field that you like. No, as I say, if you do what you like, you don't feel like working. Plus, you bring pleasure to people. So it's a good combination. You know, it's funny for me because wine, a bit like you, I used to have a few drops of wine in my glass, in my water glass on the same day when I was a kid. But on the other hand, I was living in the north of France. And so I think the first time I saw actual vineyards, I was like more than 15, for sure. I didn't see any vineyards for so many years. Yeah, for sure. But it's a different culture, it's a different culture, it's very diverse, it's very big. So you probably drink beer before me. I hope so. So you do this school. You discover a lot of different approach in the hospitality industry, a lot of different work. And so at this point, you realize that you want to be front of house and more specialized in wines. So the thing is, yeah, in school, you do everything. So again, for me, it was more about the restaurant, rather than the hotel or even bar. I mean, cocktail is not really my thing, or rather a wine and so on. So I've worked the training periods for about six months each year, four to six months. In a kitchen, in a mission star, and then in a front or a house in a restaurant and so on. And yeah, kitchen, I mean, it's good, but it's very, very hard, very tough as a job. I was a rather cool connoisseur at home. But then, so I really wanted to be on a service part. I like the service, welcoming guests and outstanding the guests, which I did at the beginning. And then I realized that I was working with a restaurant I used to work, it was in Korsika. Some of the first training in Porto Vecu in a grand hotel, the Calarosa, so very nice place. Yeah, there works place for an internship. It was pretty good. And so many was great. It was really a good entertainer, great knowledge, but very simple. And I realized that yeah, this guy in a restaurant is alone. I mean, he's got one assistant, but we're all team of waiters. And he's got him, the cellar, and he's one going to every table telling nice story, making people happy and sharing his knowledge and working on food and wine pairing, which is something we can talk a little bit later about. I love food and wine pairing. So I got close to him during my internship. And I came back to school and I realized, that's probably that's what I want to do. So it combines really the service, part of it, with all the decanting and so on. The food, part of it with food and wine pairing. And of course, the psychology, because to be a sommelier, I've learned from many people along the way, that it's all about understanding the guest and recommending something according to their taste today and up tomorrow and so on. And I think I moved back to school and I focused on this mentioned complimentary sommelier. So after the normal curses, I've done one more year to focus on this in this as well. And then from that, I moved to work in South-South France in the Beaud province in the Cabro d'Or, which is restaurants, was one Michelin star. And again, I had a new head sommelier there. It was pretty young and dynamic, Benjamin Bonanno, which is, I mean, he's one of my mentors. And so I've learned a lot from him on a hard way. So working long hours, not sleeping much, and having to learn everyday and that. I think it's a passion on wine from this moment. As you just, you're very tired, you polish glasses, while you polish glasses, you learn something about a producer or something, which is good, where the strong team over there and so on. So after a while, a few months, I really needed to learn English, so that when I moved to England. So again, I think wine is something kind of grows on you. And if you go for wine, you probably get into it, and you don't really see it, but suddenly you just live for it. Because wine is about the project itself. But it's about travel, it's about history, it's about chemistry, how is it made. I was lucky to make wine as well, to make wine. I'm not a wine maker, but to clean some pump and some pipes in the garden. In a different area, so in Korsika, in the Klokanarides, in the house, in Figari. So that's where I did the harvest first, which was very painful. And then I helped to do all the pressing and the cultural form of the two. And then in Nis as well, in a very small vineyard from Belé, very small village in a north of Nis, also in France. So again, to start by that is a basic. So when you smell the wine, when you taste the grape during fermentation, after fermentation, the ok-ging and so on, you really. Yeah, I maybe realize that here, that's what I want to do. Yeah, plus you can tell better stories to the consumers after that, because you understand what's behind every bottle. And so you arrive in the UK, do you already have a job there when you arrive? No, I arrive, I apply for a job, actually, when I was in France, I had this opportunity in Burgundy or in the UK. So again, I was just to learn English, to learn about wine, I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything about ones from outside of South of France, probably. Of course, I knew a bit about Bordeaux, Burgundy, Champagne, L'Oire, but nothing really big. And so in Burgundy, it was again, commie some really opposition, so really bottom of the hierarchy. But one of the great houses in Burgundy, but I really wanted to learn English. I realized that it's important. So when I moved to England, I worked for Hotel Juven, which is actually the same place where Armour used to work. And at the time, so he was created by Gerard Basset in the mid-90s, I believe. So when I moved there, he was 2008 or 2009. And so Gerard Basset was gone already, but had some of the other groups, Ronan Sabreum. So again, another of Mantas, that I had flew my ears. So I moved there in Cambridge first. Again, commie some really, I didn't speak English. I arrived there with a one list, which was probably 60% French wines and 40% new worldwide. Of a non-french. Which for me was a big stress when I arrived. But which is amazing because this is something you don't have in France. So I didn't even know that it was some wine from New Zealand. I probably didn't know where it was in New Zealand on the map. That said, then I started to learn about American wine, Argentina, actually. I mean, even Italy, Portugal, and so on. And so the six months I've planned to stay there, became two years working for Hotel Juven. So after Cambridge, I moved to London for the same group, which was called Bistro Juven in London. So then I was at Somalia, so very young. So that's thanks to Ronan to give me this opportunity. And again, I've learned from many different people in London. Then from that, I moved to working in. I mean, to do the opening in a shop, which was still in London called Hedonism Wine. So that was in 2012. So it's a shop which was kind of. It was about to revolutionize retail industry in terms of wine. And so I was lucky to do the opening. So when we opened, we started probably eight or nine months before the opening to set up everything. And it was about 15 people working. And out of that, it was eight Somalia's. It was really to have Somalia focus stuff to work in a very fine and prestigious shop. And so I did that for a little bit less than a year. I had the opportunity to taste some of the greatest wine in my life. But I realized that working in a shop is not really something that it fits for me. So again, I'm grateful to have been there. I've learned so much about the retail industry. But then going to a shop and waiting for customers to approach, and it was not really my thing. So I went back to working in restaurants. So I worked in one mission in Star Restaurant in London again called Lotre Pierre. So I just moved to this place again. There are two restaurants at the time. And so the owner, which was also in charge of the wine, of the small restaurants, in charge of everything, the material again, I've learned a lot from him in terms of management, in terms of very small producers from France and things like that. And while I was working there, I mean, even though he was a French restaurant, the wine list was very international, because again, I like wines from everywhere. But I was buying a few wines from California, from different parts of California, Napa, Sonoma, from the south, from everywhere. And we thought really realizing it, some of them were part of the Jackson family wine. And so again, talking about Montauchype, the gentleman working for Jackson family at the time, Dmitry Menard, which is also a master sommelier, approached me and we had great conversations about how, how much I like American wine and so on. And so we ended up having some interviews. And after a few months, I started working with Jackson family. So, basically in the UK. And so I was in London going around to sell American wine to find the Indian restaurant, which was a bit complicated. Kind of a challenge. Yes. And so I was a French guy, always been working in restaurants. I mean, this retail gap years, I mean years that I had in the middle kind of helps to understand what people need. But to go around in January, in London, to sell American wine in cold and wet weather. Yeah, it's cold outside. It's dark. It's a few months of struggle. But yeah, then after all, I mean, again, talking about Montauchype, Dmitry was here to support me, to help me. And now 12 years on, it's still my boss sent me over to Hong Kong to do the same around Asia. So yeah, it's weird how it goes that coming from a small village in Hong Kong, selling American wine. I mean, that's what I love about wine as well. I never know where it's going to go. What's going to happen. And as long as the project is good. And the philosophy behind it's healthy, let's say, I think it's pretty good. It's very interesting what you say about wines from not France, because this is really something I realized being here. So I arrived in April before that we were living in France. And this podcast was in French before April. So we used to go discover amazing French wine makers and go to really different regions. We always go to restaurants or wine places. But I realized that we were kind of always drinking French wine, basically, from every place. So you have already a lot of choices. But the level of wine from not France, from not France that I tasted was very low. I'm almost something I didn't taste. And arriving here, I realized that the wine menus are generally really super wide. You have a very large selection of wines from everywhere. And so you were able to taste really amazing things. A lot of times at very good price, at least in Hong Kong, you can really find great things. And since I arrived, I think one of my most amazing things is the German Riesling, like the Patles, the Osletzer, the Distype of Things, which I knew about in trainings that I did and stuff. But really, I think the opportunity to taste that just as a glass even. I think it's amazing to. And I guess it must have been the same for you in the UK, this is happening to. Yeah, it can be a bit overwhelming at first. And as French, we think we have the best food, the best one, and everything. Which is true, but yes. I was about to say that. Now, the better thing is again, wine is about culture and history. And if you have some amazing wine everywhere, some bad wine everywhere, but again, it's all about what you like. You talk about Riesling, probably one of my favorites from Germany, from Mozel, from Ringhaus, some of the best wine. I mean, the best one I had in the past 15 years. But the thing is when you get into something, into a region or a country, first, I believe as a consumer, you will drink what's available. So, it all depends on what the country of production will export. And where they export and what do they export? And usually, the first wines to be exported, or probably the most commercial one, the bigger houses or the bigger brands don't like to use this one, but that's what it is. So, if you're a country that don't produce wine, you will have this kind of thing first. So probably not the best in terms of quality, but it gives you a good idea. I mean, you need benchmark everywhere. And it's more like with. education with some aliere, with traveling, windmakers, windfers, people realize that, okay, the big name or important, historical. But then you have many, many small producers, which I mean, they're farmers, they don't know how to really, they don't really know how to export, they don't have time, they spend the whole year long in vineyards. So they need support of importers first in different countries. And of course, some aliere, and journalists also to write about them to make them, not to make them famous, but to make people aware about that they're here. And I think it takes quite a long time. Distance is one thing. I mean, in France, the most non-french popular wine will probably be from Italy or Spain. Yeah, from Italy. If it's in Italy, it's probably will be Germany or something. So if you geographically, that's something very important. So if you're a wine maker in South Africa or in New Zealand, I mean, how do you get there? It's very hard, you need to fly, it's costly and so on. So I think the whole wine industry is based on, of course, the quality of the project, but now the communication. And now we have this kind of podcast or media or social media. It's easier than probably, three years ago when you had to communicate by a phone or mail or fax or whatever. So I think the world as it goes, it's becoming one more big place for wine, rather than being in individual, individualistic. I don't know if we say this well, but. And I think there is always something new. I love ones from one valley, I'm from there. And of course, you have the big classic, from the big Appellation, Chatonavgipa, Cotroti, Yermitage. I mean, I still think classic or best. But you have new young producer, young wine maker, we kind of travel around as well. So they do their internship in Australia, in Argentina. So they come back to their roots with a fresh view. So I think at the moment, actually, there is in France at least, and in Italy too, actually. A big switch in terms of generation ship. So that's third or fourth generation of wine maker, which are around 25, 30 years old. They're taking over slowly from their parents, which already took over from their parents, but that's going to a very similar region. And now there's a little bit more, there's a little bit younger, more fresh, more dynamic, they make wine different way. Plus they did internship abroad, or other type of things. So they were sent by their parents to Australia, to the US, and so they come back with a fresh idea. Yeah, bigger view, bigger vision. And they understand that making the wine, when you have great terror, needs to respect that, and I think that's fair enough. And so that should be like that forever. But then they make different wine, if you have all this whole bunch of wine making, you know, like a little bit lighter, wine less aging in barrel, for wine, for to attract younger consumers, at a better price as well, because I mean, who can afford a grand prix from Bergenzina? No, no, not me, at least. So that kind of thing, but you have some young wine maker. They approach Bergenzine with fresh vision, as you mentioned. And to have one which is more affordable, and something we can drink in the next five years. Because if you want to drink a very old school premier from Bergenzine, you probably need to wait 15 years, which is fair. But who is waiting now to drink wine? I do wait sometimes, but yeah, you are. You're drinking red tea too. But I still need wine probably. What you said about market maturity, is super interesting. I feel it's been kind of the same for China and potentially part of Asia. And I guess your closest witness we can have today about this, is like I feel like 10 or 15 years ago, you could sell whatever wine you wanted to China, or even to other countries in Asia. And now, so like you just needed it, I think the joke was like you put a chateau, you put a castle on the label, you're right in red, and you know that your bottle is gonna be sold and not a good price. So that's okay. And I guess now it's more, we are more on the education part of this, and it's like actually, there is a crisis of wine in China, but I think it mostly focuses on this type of wines. And actually if you do good wines or niche things, you still find clients and potentials because just the market is more educated. And basically you have the same crisis in France. Like no one is buying wines that are random or just made for consumption. Everyone is buying stories, everyone is buying very specific appellation, very specific estate or that type of things. And yeah, you're very right, completely right. And I think this is due partly to COVID. COVID was, I mean, not a very good time, but many people stay home for a couple of years. So instead of going to a restaurant or to a shop to buy wine, people were staying at home, buying online and cooking at home, and they had no much to do. So when they were buying wine online, they will probably do some research about it because they had time. So they get kind of interested, educated, and they realize that here wine is brought, is big, and instead of always buying the same thing, that they know, so it's safe. So they start to learn, listen, and so I think that was a nice beginning. And again, social media now, I mean, it's helpful at some point, it's an helpful, other point because people things, they know everything, because they saw it on a specific application on the phone. But wine, we also have this part of China opening up, knowledge is opening up, yes. But wine, I think I can say it's everywhere in a world, there is a lot going on about stages. So if you're a businessman, you just made a huge deal with your customer from a different country. You want to impress, so you probably go to a very nice restaurant, you will buy a nice bottle of wine, and what is a nice bottle of wine, it's expensive. - It's the most expensive. And what's expensive and safe and you know 100% is gonna be good, it's probably boredot and champagne. And that's what kind of was, not anymore, but that's the thing about fancy wine. So I mean, if you want to impress someone, buy a bottle of Petrus 1982, I'm sure. You know, someone doesn't know about wine, will be impressed by that. And I think this education part, the knowledge part, as you mentioned, makes people think like, okay, Petrus 1982 is nice. But can I drink something as nice, the amount of quality, but probably a little bit more affordable? And yes, so that's when people really start to read about wine to understand, and I still think, I mean, boredot, for me it's a bit old school, I like to drink boredot, I like to drink sweet wine, I like to drink maderas, and things like that. But it's very classic. And I think, again, we drink every day, people are drinking every day need to find something else. So you're talking about China. I've been lucky enough last year, or this year actually, to go to visit few wineries, or went to Yunnan, I went to Shandong, and there is things, I think, to the consumer of China for the last 20 or 30 years, the investments in vineyards, over there in the land, it's great. - Yeah. - And they're really aiming to the best. Of course, you have some big production and everything, but before you used to be only big production cooperative, now you have more independent wineries, opening everywhere, small big name, foreign investments into China, and so many different things. But I think it's focusing on quality. So again, you can make good wine everywhere now, and you can make bad wine everywhere too. But with the new technology and the understanding of terroir, of regions and production methods, I think China is a great future in terms of wine making. The vineyard is still a little bit young. I think in the next 15 or 20 years, the vineyard would be around 45, 50 years old. So that when you have a great age for the vine to produce an outstanding wine. So yeah, the wine industry is maturing, as you say. So China is one thing. South East Asia is very different again. Again, we are in Hong Kong. We are lucky with taxes in terms of wine in Hong Kong. So before I mean, I travel a lot in South East Asia, all the Philippine, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia. And people will come to Hong Kong as a mature market, as you mentioned, to have a weekend with their family. They will probably come to it in a fine dining restaurant, Michelin Star, European or Ejian restaurants. They will probably go to some wine store by a case of very, very fine wine with no tax, put them in their luggage and then go buy them. And drink it at home. So now this still exists, but a little bit less because again, in terms of distribution since COVID, people couldn't travel, people couldn't go to experience this kind of weekends. So many importers from all this country decide to import one. to understand how to import one because again, I mean logistically it's very very tricky. If you import expensive wine or wine, you don't want to be standing in a cell in a container or something. So people get to understand how to do that and they're doing it. So in all these countries, Southeast Asia mostly, the wine selection, the wine choice is expanding. And it goes from fine wine to very local, small, Austrian producer, who produce just a few hundred cases. So it really is a diversity is changing. And I think in our sommelier industry, what helps? It's a Michelin. So it comes with wine selections, follows, or it's in part with Michelin restaurant. So if Michelin establish itself in a country like he did in a Philippine or in Malaysia very recently and in Thailand a few years ago, that will bring a fine dining customer from all around the world. Maybe we don't realize it, but many people travel just for just our Michelin stars. So if you have a one or two or three Michelin star, you need a nice one. You have two. So more wine into the market and so on. So it's like a snowball effect. But then I come to a point that I wanted to mention, education. Because more wine you get in the market, more knowledge you need. So need more knowledge for the sommelier to educate the staff in a restaurant and to certain extent to educate the consumer. Because fine dining, most of the time we have a tasting menu with a wine pairing. So wine pairing is really important in terms of texture and I mean we all know how good wine, good food and so on. But how to explain like why do I put, I don't know, just a random example. If you're in Thailand you have a very spicy dish with some coconut milk and so on. What do you pair with that? From wine from where? We would go to Bordeaux, probably not. We would go to Italy, China, New Zealand, which grape, wheat style, wheat sweetness. So it's all complex, but it's unlimited. Because food and wine pairing is very personal. Of course, you need to match. But if someone recommend this with a torrentes from Argentina, why not? I don't really like torrentes. I really care about it. So why I don't know, it's very complex. So it's all about education, one bottle at the time, one tasting at the time and I think it's something very important here. Yeah, plus when you're a sommelier, you need to know the wine, you know to tell the story around it. And in the end, as a consumer, when I go to a restaurant, what I expect from the sommelier is, of course, that the wines are good. But it's that he knows where does it come from, who is doing it. Like was the story behind it, not to the weather of the actual day or whatever. I don't care about this, but just knowing the region and knowing what's behind the wine. Because it's really for me the intermediary between the producer and the customer. But he needs to deliver this message to the end and know from the matter of time. It's something I always say for us as a sommelier, we are not doing anything. Let's say producing, and sorry, we are not producing wine, we are not producing food. But what we are producing, it's a moment. So you need to understand the wine and understand the food and understand the people that you're going to talk to. So you create these moments which can be unforgettable or it can be really bad. You need to understand your guest as a style of event, is it lunch, is it dinner, is it business, is it a couple. What budget was there willing to spend if someone wants to have a level of knowledge. Someone wants to have a board of reds with some oysters. Because ten years ago he met his wife drinking a board of reds and oysters as a can of it. They can be blacklisted, but they can. So now it's really a psychology behind his great, but you understand the knowledge is important. The knowledge of people is also really important. And wine is something we don't necessarily need in our life. So we drink wine and we go to a fine dining because we want to, because we can afford to. Do we need to eat every day? Yes. Do we need to drink water? Yes. No. I need glasses, probably a fort. I mean pay for some glasses. So one, it's an extra. It's like a piece of jewelry or something. So if we are willing to serve someone with willing to spend some money in wine, what others do it well. And not still their money. But that's something which is also very important. And so understanding of the level of customer you've got, it's something super mini ski. The personalization around that. Let's come back to when you arrive in Hong Kong. So others that work like basically the guys from Jackson family just say, OK, let's go to Hong Kong. Here is your suitcase. We ship you some wines. And now so it was almost exactly. So we had a conversation with Jackson to for me to go to Asia. So we didn't know exactly where Singapore was a possibility. Hong Kong was a possibility. Korea was a possibility. And so we have distribution in all this country of Asia. So Jackson is about I think like 100 different importers in Asia. Each of them import different wine exclusively and so on. So my role was really to come and to help these importers to recommend and to educate some of these on Jackson family wines. So I moved to Hong Kong because the dining scene was and still is very, very exciting. And yet a few friends, including Arno, including Yuan, including Syria. I mean, few people from the UK, we grew up together kind of in the UK in terms of our wine education and working some in similar restaurants, some now. But then they were already here. So I kind of had a few friends already because moving from. Yeah, this part of the world to the other kind of not easy. And then from that. So I go to meet all the importers starting in Hong Kong, of course. And go to see some of these. So I mean on a daily basis is pretty much as I was explaining earlier in Hong Kong when he was nice and cold in January was his pleased your positive. My bag full of wine again and very hot and unique. So another adjustment to make. But just go and see rush one and introduce myself talk about the wine and get to understand what people need here because the consumer from Hong Kong and from the UK is very different. The sommelier knowledge is very, very different. Here, I mean, in England, there was a foreigner by its senior up. I mean, was in Europe at the time. Here, I'm a foreigner. So I need to adjust to the culture to the food, understanding the food. I mean, talk about wine pairing. We will talk about that. But what wine do we bear with food from from Canton, when from Guangzhou, from Sichuan, from I mean, it's all new. Everything is new for me. And that's good. I like new thing. I get bored very quickly. So to have a new philosophy, new culture, new language, not that I've learned Cantonese, but a new perception of wine. It was very interesting and very exciting to adjust to that. So really, I'm still learning every day. And now I'm traveling a lot in Asia. So going from Japan to Singapore to Vietnam, Korea everywhere. Each country, it's got its own, of course, historical, tour, language, money. But when we are around the bottle of wine, the conversation is very, very similar, which is the beauty of food and wine. So you can drink a bottle of nice shin-on-yi or you can be a cabernet from Napa Valley. I think you can be very rich, very well educated on your positive side. But when you have a bottle of wine, it makes everybody on the same level. And that's what I like about wine. Because we don't talk about ourself, we talk about the wine. Do you like it? Do I like it? That's most important. Is it good or bad? Doesn't mean anything. It can be good for you, but for me, vice versa. So wine, I think we always need to respect what's in a bottle. The work that has been made for a year by a producer or even more. But then it's about exchanging. And I have some very nice conversations with some friends, some really about wine, about the style of wine, the wine making, the vintage, that we taste, this vintage, that vintage. But then again, traveling in Asia, you meet people with very different palettes, tasting wine with someone from Japan, with probably some of the finest tasteers and finest palettes. I've met in general, it's really making generality. And then with someone from, I don't know, yes, Sichuan, Brazil. China. We've been eating spices all his life. I mean, for them, is there any wine with a bit more power? But does it mean they don't know anything? No, no, it's just very, very different. And again, I think I mean, there's millions of wine produced. So there's potentially one wine for everyone, one style of wine for everyone. So yeah. That's for sure. And yeah, that's that's very interesting. These different perceptions and the way you need to talk about this as well, because you can't say the same thing to a guy from Sichuan and to a guy in Japan, they don't have the same background. They will not feel the same. And you know, it's funny what you said about the type of moment that you have around wine, because when we arrived in in Hong Kong, I think a few, like one or two months after we arrived, maybe a little bit more, but we went to Shanghai for first Chinese wine tasting. It was a massive event around Chinese wines, but actually it felt like a wine tasting, in France, you know, like some definitely own or something like that. Like you basically just had a bunch of wine makers, like I don't know, 50 or 70 wine makers on tables with their buzzer of wine and being like pouring wines discussing with you about what they do, explaining you. And it was very like non-experience for me, even though it was with people who I could barely talk to because you know, the language is completely different. So yeah, it's one is international. And again, it's people working some vineyard, working in a field, let's say, to bring back their own historical culture vision to us. So it's a thing, it's amazing. It's a still-and-there project from the agriculture. I mean, we eat beef from a specific area or some seafood oyster, I mean, fruit, veggies. Wine is the same. It's just fermented and in a bottle. And then it ages well, very well. So I think it's something which is really diverse. And again, it's just to bring people together. You talked about a socialist age, so Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Malaysia. How do you see the wines opportunity there? Like, it feels like when I talk to people here in Hong Kong, it feels like the Hong Kong market is a bit more difficult at the moment. Like, not that it's not working, but it's already saturated. Like, a lot of people, a lot of wine porters, a lot of just people already selling wines. When we talk about China, it's like, you know, China is a difficult place as a western guy because you really need to understand Chinese people, you need to like really work with them, speak with them, and it's sometimes hardcore, complicated to do that if you want to do it locally. So do you see like Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia has places of opportunity like you should go there and just open a wine shop. Yeah, probably. The thing is also Hong Kong, yes, saturated, yes, kind of, but Hong Kong has always been a hub for wine in Asia. So because of the localization, location, sorry, and taxes and the Bordeaux, Bergen, the Shambhain, that's where really people invest and Hong Kong is known for investment in terms of wine, of anything, it's a financial hub as well. So yes, there is a lot of wine in Hong Kong, but still things are in space for more because people are getting more educated. So they're seller of full of Bordeaux, Bergen, and Shambhain, so they probably need to try something else. Plus they're curious. Yes, very curious. That's the problem. Exactly. And the thing is, and we know the dining scene in Hong Kong is great, or it's been in wine and in wine, perfect. So I think the one which everybody talk about for the last couple of years is Thailand, I mean a bit more than couple of years, which has been booming in terms of restaurant bars, I mean 50 best, Michelangue, and so on. So it's all a Bangkok. It's all on the hype at the moment. And again, the one industry follows this. So you have more people opening restaurants, so more so many people in the knowledge, people traveling, so you need more wine, so people import more wine and so on. New importers as well. I think, yeah, Singapore again, pretty much like Hong Kong in terms of a financial hub, not too much tax on wine, and yeah, financial hubs, so people have money to spend in big names. But what I like about the rest of the countries, so Vietnam, Malaysia, I think that's the two most important elements, I mean, one I go at least quite often, is that people are willing to discover many type of ones. So yes, of course, you need your board, though, you need your champagne and your baguages and your napakab. But because the dynamic of the dining scene are young people, so they want wine, which are a bit more affordable, made by young people, to be consumed very early, to be good in the next four or five years, let's say. So that's, they will be looking at wine from a smaller region, smaller country or smaller area. So if they go to California, they will probably not go for the napakab. They'll probably try Pinot Noir from Santa Rita Hills, Pinot Noir and Jardinets from Oregon. If they go to France, they'll probably go to Jura, Savoie, Loire Valley instead of going to Poiaque and Juraix, Bernstein. So it's really something which again, give more diversity, more depth to wine selection, to one importer selection, portfolio and to wine list. But all that, it's happening very fast. So this is a thing again, to talk about education. So with the court of Master Somalia, I'm sure we're going to talk a bit about that in a second, but it's already established in the main countries in in Asia. But in the last couple of years, we're developing countries like Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia. And then we do an exam in Hong Kong and Singapore. We can really see people coming from these countries. So our aim is to go to these countries. So we do Vietnam as well, sorry, forgot to mention, but so to get the knowledge closer to the Somalia, we cannot really afford to travel because traveling is expensive or tells our expensive in Hong Kong and things. And you need time as well. So if you do an exam which lasts for five days, you probably need to go one or two days before one or two weeks after. And inhospitalities are very difficult to take 10 days off. So our role is really to go to the Somalia who wants to learn. And I think that's something which is important. And it goes with, again, as I say, you have 50 best Michelin Star, importers, education, everything grows together to become in a few years, mature markets like we have here in Hong Kong or Korea or Japan or Singapore. So the transition is perfect because I wanted to talk about Master Somalia. So can you tell me more about it? Like when did you go for Master Somalia first? What it is? So Master Somalia, so it's an organization which was created in the late 60s in the UK. So, a quarter of Master Somalia, which was really at the beginning was really to get a qualification in the UK for wine. So some people were involved as a Somalia, of course, some chef was there, some importers, some wine merchants. So it really started pretty widely then focused on really the court of Master Somalia, so for Somalia. And the whole idea is really to push people to get more knowledge when working in fine dining restaurant or in a normal restaurant actually doesn't need to be fine dining but the time was more fine dining. And also one of the most important things of this quarter of Master Somalia is to create a community. There's not so many MS in the world at the moment, which in the numbers are growing because knowledge is getting better and better. But it's really about sharing information, sharing knowledge and just getting better. And the thing is it is an exam, it's not a competition. So there is some years on nobody will pass. The competition you always have someone someone one two or three. So, a quarter of Master Somalia, if you don't have the level, you don't pass. And he took me 10 years to do so I didn't have the level for nine years. And then one year I've passed, so he took me quite a while. But I've started as soon as I moved to UK to Cambridge because it's something that to be working in hotel Jérôme, you had to go through it. It was all sponsored by the group, so it was a very good gift and a chance to be working there to be able to take the exam. And then as Jérôme, you have four different levels, and traditionally certified, advanced and master level. So it took me quite a few years. But the thing is what you learn going through this. So of course you need to learn about wine. And so that's very important. Wine-making, wine, production, names. les services de la couronne, et bien sûr, ils ont des tests de blindes, qui sont très très trickies. Mais aussi, vous investez beaucoup de temps et monne, mais vous mettez des gens très bien, nous sommes en Tarnau, on est en Saint-Gaupaut, on est en Eau-Anne, qui est le joueur de la pièce, il y a beaucoup de gens dans le monde, qui nous passent ensemble et quand nous passons les examens ensemble, nous sommes en même même amount de stress, car c'est très stressable, et vous ne vous entendez pas ce que les gens passent ensemble. Maintenant, je suis en train de faire des gens qui passent à l'MS ou à l'MS, même si je ne sais pas, on explique le même language quand on arrive à wine, donc c'est très intéressant de voir. Et je pense que avec cette couronne de majeur sommelier, comme le student, à la fois, vous vous regardez pour la mentorship. Et donc, vous avez un peu de peu de l'MS, le prévu de génération, donc les gens qui passent à l'MS sont en même amount, basé en U.K., et je suis venu pour avoir un mentor de l'EU, qui est un mentor de l'EU, donc le renonçant d'indiquement, qui est encore encore mentir à moi, mais c'est ce que vous avez regardé pour, et tous ces gens, ou qui passent à l'EU, ou de l'EU, ou de l'EU, ou de l'EU, ou de l'EU, ou de l'EU, ou de l'EU, et de l'EU, qui est le fondeur de la couronne de majeur sommelier, et vous allez voir à l'EU, et vous allez voir à l'EU, et vous allez voir à l'EU, restaurants, vous avez cette vision de service, de l'air et de l'entêtement, mais Master of Wine, je suis un journaliste, le knowledge est vraiment très fort dans le terme de wine-making, terror, et vous avez besoin d'un Master of Wine, c'est quelque chose que je ne ne peut pas être capable. Donc c'est très académique, vous aussi besoin d'appeler un peu beaucoup de wine-making technique, de business, de stratégie, de certains regions, et c'est vraiment quelque chose qui est un respect et un maire Master of Wine parce que c'est une différence et un Master de l'air, mais je sais que quelques personnes sont déjà en W, mais je peux je suis content de greedy listen, avec des Genesisistors, qui patளent l'épisode de "L» ce qui mène beaucoup d'autres意 humains dans le public. Et il comfortably va les semerger à bosser au-munes. Il vous vient d'aller la différence tipo ils maiinent comme ce sont les légères embora unsure quand le des gens sont très occupés. Et je fais tout le temps, il y a des tests dans les cas, avec Debra Mable. Il y a des tests blindes, des fruits, des formules de l'émergne. Et je vais toujours être partie de l'épisode, et c'est toujours un bon fun. Nous sommes à la même vision, un bon de l'épisode, un bon monde, et c'est très bon. Je pense que Debra va avoir un podcast sur ce genre, c'est très bon. On est en contact, donc je suis sûr que. Je suis sûr que nous allons rentrer dans les next few months. -Probably. -Bonne question. Merci beaucoup pour beaucoup d'autres d'autres d'eux, Piafois. Je pense que c'était une bonne interview. Je n'ai trois questions que sont toujours les mêmes. Le premier est, vous avez un commentaire de la première? Oui, je sais que la première est très bien à faire. je��는 vraiment du書ique. Je passe alors à plus et mais avec Mathieu de La крутина, Ma maète Shemer screws ça explique beaucoup tu comprendes les plus folles et je vais faire une vidéo pour un jour pour une version d'adversion. C'est mon recommandation. On va mettre une link à la description de la gêne. Vous avez mentionné les "Fou-den-Wine-Pairing"? Vous avez une advise à faire une "Fou-den-Wine-Pairing"? Un "resource" ou un "book"? Je pense que vous allez juste à l'entrain. C'est une version de "Wine-Pairing" là-bas. Nous savons ça, mais c'est juste. Juste, juste pour vous, vous êtes sûr. Et c'est juste un peu de temps pour. - Non, c'est OK. Il est bien, il est juste en train de faire une autre. Qu'est-ce que c'est la dernière version de la version d'adversion que vous avez pu envoyé? C'est une bonne question. C'est une question. C'est le cas où il était très bon pour essayer des bords, donc je suis à la concession de la 2017. Mais encore un peu avant, je suis venu de faire des végasses, une "Wine-Pairing" des spains. C'était un événement. Il y avait quelques vintages différentes de l'unico, des "fou-magnons" et il a eu une chance de faire 5 vintages. Cette "Wine-Pairing" est très sentimental pour moi. C'est une de l'un des 1. Je suis venu de l'unis en England, je ne sais pas ce qu'il a dit. C'est une émotion de la version de "Wine-Pairing" et c'est le meilleur "Wine-Pairing" dans le monde. - Non, non, c'est pas. - C'est une de l'unique de l'unique. C'est un peu faible. C'est un sentiment de la memory. C'est une de l'unique. Je pense que ce sont deux. Ce sont 7,7, c'est fantastique. Mais il est possible de faire 4 vintages de l'unico, je pense que c'est quelque chose très rare. Je l'ai dit à ces 2 estates. - C'est une de l'unique. - Absolument. C'est une de l'unique de l'unique. Et je pense que je suis en 1er, 2 ou 3 ans, dans une grande des taux d'internation, dans une grande diner, dans la France, avec beaucoup de vintages. Et je sais que c'est un peu faible. Donc, c'est juste pour les vintages et de l'unique. Et donc, je suis en train de faire des vintages. Je ne sais pas ce que je ne sais pas. Et je me suis dit que c'est ce que c'est. Je me dis que c'est ce que je suis dans mon livre, et je me dis que c'est un peu faible. - C'est un peu faible. - C'est une grande histoire. La famille, la famille d'entre-je, mais c'est la meilleure partie de l'un de l'un de l'espoir. - Oui. - Je me dis. Et puis, qui est le prochain personne qui nous devons intervenir? - Oui, je pense que je ne veux pas vous dire ce que je veux. Je n'ai pas eu un autre personne qui me met à ma main quand je me sens. Donc, elle est une partie de l'un de les plus grands, locales de l'espoir de l'espoir d'Eineau. Donc, elle est en bas dans un macaou. Donc, notre nom est Winnie. Donc, elle est en train de faire le grand-lise d'Bouapala. Donc, elle est vraiment un grand-lise d'un de ses amis. Et je pense qu'elle va être très heureuse et excite pour faire une vision de l'espoir de l'espoir de l'espoir. Et je pense qu'elle est très heureuse et elle est en train de faire le grand-lise. Et je pense qu'elle est très heureuse et excite. - Je pense qu'elle est très heureuse et que je ne veux pas vous dire. - Je pense qu'elle est heureuse et que je ne veux pas vous dire. Pour les gens qui sont toujours en train de se faire en ce moment, c'est que tu n'as pas la chance d'avoir apprécié. J'ai la chance d'avoir une ou deux ou trois amis, pour pouvoir découvrir l'Union de l'Histoire. Je pense que ça va être une bonne conclusion de l'Union d'Histoire. Faut être bien d'une autre! Donnez d'en pas d'en訂閱. Et c'est ça! Merci beaucoup, bye! C'est ça!