#1049 - Dr Jay Wiles - A Masterclass in Improving Your HRV

Good news, I'm going back on tour with a brand new live show in Australia, New Zealand and Bali. If you are interested in learning how to overcome imposter syndrome, reach your goals while not missing your entire life, my perspective on where true confidence comes from, everything I've ever discovered about discipline, plus brand new insight that I've never spoken about on the podcast, then join me on stage as I explore all of these topics with you and you can get involved during an extensive Q&A where we work through the biggest questions that you have. Right now, Perth and Brisbane are completely sold out, but there are still tickets available for Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Christchurch, Auckland and Bali and you can get yours right now by going to the link in the description below or heading to Chris Williamson.live. HIV is kind of like the new hot girl in school, everyone's real interested in her finding out where she's come from and what she can do and who she likes, assume that I know nothing about HIV. What is it, what's it measure? The funniest thing about this, Chris, is that let's say circa 10, 15 years ago, like we would have never been having this discussion, and so for someone like me who is early to the game in the field of heart rate variability because I was exposed to it, let's say 15 years ago when I first started doing mostly clinical work, now everybody has access to this. Like it's in, because of the advent of portable technology, we all have accessibility to something that used to have to go into like let's say a specialized academic clinic in order to receive. So I worked at the Department of Veterinary Affairs as a resident and so within that context, like I was exposed to it because we utilized three lead, six lead, 12 lead EKGs. And so it's, these are 30,000, 50,000, 60,000 pieces of their dollars worth of equipment. And so within that context, it's great to see now that we can all obtain this data, but the problem is is that nobody actually understands what the hell this thing is. It's a cool new metric that nobody has to clear what it does. Yeah, indeed. So the way I like to explain heart rate variability is first by giving a broad definition of what HRV actually is. And then I like to back pedal a little bit because I think that the definition that I'm going to give is probably a little bit too broad and heart rate variability in them itself is actually quite nuanced. So when we think about HRV or heart rate variability, and I'm going to say HRV probably for the rest of the podcast because heart rate variability is a mouthful, HRV is the single greatest non-invasive proxy that we have for measuring the adaptations of the nervous system. HRV is a signal. It's a window into how the nervous system is responding at any given time or the time we're actually measuring it. And so when we think about HRV, I want people to think about adaptation, to think about resilience and to think about flexibility. Those are probably three words that I'll use quite often within this context. So if it's looking at the adaptations of the nervous system, I like to back pedal a little bit and I explain what we mean by nervous system because I think a lot of people hear this word nervous system. It's kind of like one of those cool catch phrases in terms that people use in the health and wellness sphere right now that I don't think people actually fully grasp and understand what it is. So maybe it makes sense for me to explain the nervous system a little bit. Okay. So when we talk about nervous system, we're talking about a massive signaling highway. And when we think about a massive signaling highway, we think about nerve endings that are running throughout the entire body. So all the way from the brain and spinal cord out to the periphery of the body itself. And it's all about communication. It's all about sending signals and messages to and from the brain and the spinal cord out to the body and then back up. So efferent and afferent signaling. The nervous system is not just in one location or in one area. So a lot of people when they think about nervous system, they think about what's going on within the brain. What's the central nervous system? So the central nervous system is the brain and the spinal cord. But there are also other signaling highways. One being the peripheral nervous system, which is a larger unbral term that people use. But within the peripheral nervous system, we have the somatic nervous system and the autonomic nervous system. Somatic nervous system is all voluntary. So it's movement, coordination, muscular contraction. Whereas the autonomic nervous system is all about involuntary or at least we thought it used to be all involuntary. And so that's this thing's like managing things like your respiration, your blood pressure, heart rate, digestion. It's all kind of under autonomic or automatic control. So what does the autonomic nervous system even do? Like what do we need it? It's a threat detection signaling mechanism that we have built in from an evolutionary perspective the great way to think about it is that it's constantly scanning our environments, receiving internal cues, external cues, and making adjustments to our physiology so that we can maintain balance, maintain homeostasis throughout the body. Because we don't want things dysregulated in one way or another because that can cause pretty significant dysfunction from a mind body perspective. So it's all intended to say, "Hey, let me zone in on which way I need to adjust. Do I need to move blood pressure up? Do I need to move it down? Do I need to increase heart rate up?" And it's kind of like this back and forth communication highway that we have. When people think about the nervous system, they think about it being either like the stress response or the relaxation response, and it's actually a bit more nuanced than that even. Because when we think about the autonomic nervous system, it consists of two different branches, the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is what most people see as the fight or flight or freeze response. And I actually think that that's a bit of a bastardization or over-generalization as to what the sympathetic response is. I actually think that to conceptualize the parasympathetic response, it's much more of a way that we mobilize energy. So if we think about mobilizing energy, why would we need to do that? We would need to mobilize energy in an effort to evade perceived threat or even potential viable threat. And then on the other side, we have the parasympathetic nervous system. So when we think about parasympathetic nervous system, the way I was talking about this in graduate school is parasympathetic, it helps to bring us down. The whole intention behind the parasympathetic nervous system is our rest digest a relaxation response. But again, I like to think a bit more as a way of conserving energy. So mobilizing energy, sympathetic nervous system, conserving energy, parasympathetic nervous system, and we have both of those kind of working together, not just antagonistically. They're not just like the seesaw where we turn one on or we turn one off. And that's where a lot of people get this wrong is that there's a misconception that I turn on my stress response and I can turn it off or I turn on my relaxation response or I can turn it off. It doesn't work that way. It's not a seesaw. They actually work together. And so taking a step forward now to HRV and kind of how this relates to everything is that we can actually gain insight or window through a biometric, which is heart rate variability, which actually looks at that autonomic nervous system and whether or not it's actually making true adaptations and is resilient or is it lacking in flexibility in potentially causing us some significant harm. Why would the distance between heartbeats be a good indication of all of that stuff? Why is that an indication of why is that the canary? The nervous system is having to respond to millions of processes at any given moment. So it's having to make adaptations at any given moment again to keep us in that state of homeostasis. Otherwise we become dysregulated and we experience what's called allostatic load. In other words, our nervous system can't keep up with all of the input. It's basically too much. It's too taxing. And so therefore, when we look at heart rate variability in the distance between successive heartbeats and I think that actually probably I should offer that definition now and explain why those distances relate actually to dysregulation or regulation of the nervous system. It gives us insight into is it making those fine tune adjustments and adaptations? So let me back up now and explain heart rate variability from a definition perspective. And the way I like to explain this to the heuristic of heart rate that most people understand. So for instance, Chris, if I were to look at your, you know, a wearable that you have on, let's say with your whoop and open up your phone and then your phone, I see that your heart is beating at a rate of 60 beats per minute. So we take some really easy math here and we say, okay, so if your heart is beating at a rate of 60 beats per minute, that's one beat that's occurring every single second. And so therefore, we're approximating that across a 60 second window, your heart is beating once every single second 60 beats per minute easy math. Is that actually what's going on? And the answer is no, the heart actually doesn't operate like a metronome. When the heart starts to operate like a metronome, that's actually when we run into some struggle, we run into trouble. Because the thermostat is starting to adjust to say, there's a lot of chaos that's going on right now. I need to kind of like hone in, back in and regulate the system to kind of a consistent constant beat because I've got other things that I've got to attend to. There's threat that's kind of within my environment. So what we'd actually say is that no, the heart during that 60 minute or 60 second window that we were looking at wasn't just kind of holding a nice even beat. Actually it was going up and down and up and down. And if you look at a heart rate of someone just kind of at rest at baseline right now, it kind of looks a little bit chaotic like it doesn't actually have a nice little sinusoidal pattern or rhythm, it actually looks quite chaotic. And that's because there are many processes that are occurring in that time that it's causing your heart rate to speed up and to slow down and to speed up and to slow down. And so with that across that, let's say cycle of speeding up and slowing down, the time between successive heart beats, which is what we're looking at with heart rate variability is shrinking kind of as we inhale. So that time is going down, down, down because heart rate is increasing. And then as we exhale, it's going longer, longer, longer. So the space between successive heart beats is actually elongating. Now the difference between those heart beats, so when we look at what is the amount of time, and we look at that in milliseconds. So for instance, we wouldn't say like there's one second or one point two seconds when the world of heart rate variability research, we would say there's a thousand milliseconds or 980 milliseconds. That variance tells us something about the fine tunements that your nervous system is making to adjust to its environment. And when it's having a really hard time adjusting, then we see that variance start to decrease. So it may go from, hey, I'm in a really perfectly relaxed mode and my heart rate variability is 100 milliseconds, to it may actually start to shrink pretty substantially when we're experiencing stress because our body's having a hard time adapting. So when you say it's a heart rate variability of 100 milliseconds, that's the swing, that's the distance between shortest and longest. So it depends on the metric you're using. This is actually kind of a misconception that people have with heart rate variability is they think that it's a singular metric. And indeed, it's not actually a singular metric. It's a whole compilation of metrics. So there's generally around 12 to 15 HRV metrics that people use. I know. It gets complicated. We don't need to make it overcomplicated. It explains whether you are making the distance between heartbeats longer or shorter, and how much of that occurs across a given time period. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that variance that occurs between heartbeats. The reason that's so incredibly valuable and so important for people to understand is because as we examined whether or not your nervous system is truly adapting to its environment, we can take that number and plot it across time and see whether or not it is changing, or is it saying the same, or is it decreasing. And this is again another misconception that people have is they believe that heart rate variability is this metric that I should always see going in an upward direction. It should always be progressing in an upward direction. When in fact, and this actually comes from my really close friend, his name's Dr. Marco Latini Italian researcher, Berilla in this space, he actually says that a good HRV is actually a normal HRV. It is a HRV that doesn't change across time very much. So it's actually one that remains stable. And we can get into that if you want, but HRV is a metric that shouldn't just be taken out of context and looking at just what is it right now, but what is it across time? Is a high HRV always good and is a low one always bad then? If I had a dollar for every email I got asking that question of whether or not my HRV is good because it is said number or bad because of said number, be a very rich man right now. So I would say that this is a little nuanced. High HRV is good, but it's only good when it's relative to you. It's not good when we're saying, hey, I want to compare my HRV to someone else. That's actually where we can get into trouble. High HRV as it is relative to you could be good. That could be a sign of adaptation for you. So let's say Chris, for instance, easy math, your HRV typically is 50 milliseconds. So if we see that across time, that number is going from 50 to 60 to 65 to 70, well relative to you, that's pretty good. But I may look at someone else whose HRV is their baseline is 100 milliseconds. And over the course of time, it's actually gone from 100 to 90 to 85, well, the absolute value is still much higher than yours. But I would say that you're showing way better adaptations from a nervous system perspective than they are. So high isn't what we're aiming for here because this is not a metric of virtue. And I think that this is where people get into a lot of trouble. They see whoever health influencer posts their aura or a whoop score on their Instagram page and they've got a heart rate variability score of 150 milliseconds and they're like, "Shit, I've got minus 25." And that's when I get the email like, "Am I going to die? Am I going to have some cardiovascular issues or panic attacks that are going to cause me to die?" And I always say, "Hey, let's pump the brakes, let's pump the vagal brake here." And just relax for a second. Like what's most important here is not looking at whether or not it's higher low. It's looking at stability across time. And one metric that's not used very often, but I use this a lot within my clinic. So I work with a lot of pro athletes, you know, we're ranging from individuals in the MLB, NFL, Formula One, etc. And one of the metrics that I use for them with recovery is actually not looking at just the daily absolute value score that you might get from whoop aura, etc. I actually look at a number called HRV-CV, which is the coefficient of variation of heart rate variability, which is a long-winded way of saying, "From day to day, how much does your HRV vary?" So when we look at it across a seven-day window, is it varying significantly? Indicating that it's having a hard time adjusting because it's going up and down and up and down, maybe due to stress, overtraining, overreaching, or is it nice and stable? Indicating that the nervous system is always rebounding, it's always doing what it should do. It's a long-winded way of saying, "It's high, good, low, bad." The answer is yes and no, but mostly no. Right. Why do certain people have different HRVs to others? Because I've got a whoop team, and on my whoop team is a bunch of pro athletes. And I have a weightlifter friend whose HRV I've seen in the 200s to 10, I've got a professional cricket friend who is regularly in the 150s, and then there's me and the rest of my degenerate friends that are kind of scrabbling around in midlife. There are a lot of different factors that come into play here. So you have to think about a couple of things. I think the biggest thing are what are the non-modifiable factors that influence heart re-variability, and then what are the modifiable factors? Because I think that we place a lot of pressure in a day and age where there's like so much, I guess, biometric hypervigilance, we place a lot of pressure on ourselves to have certain metrics meet whatever our standards are, typically they're pretty arbitrary standards, because people are just like, again, I saw somebody who had up 200 millisecond HRV. I probably should have that because they're a pro athlete. We're comparing apples and oranges here. We're using the same metric, but we're comparing two different physiological presentations. So let's talk then about first non-modifiable influencers, because I think that that's someone that people need to hear more than anything. The first one's age, like age is one of the primary non-modifiable factors that we see within the literature. Like if you go and you look at the literature that compares normative values across longitudinal time in these studies, we see that there is a distinct negative slope. And one of the things that's happening is that generally around age is 40 to 50 or so, or even like in the mid-30s, we start to see a pretty steep decline in baseline heart rate variability. This is due to a lot of reasons, and we have things like autonomic efficiency is reduced. So the ability to kind of actually handle stress is reduced, likely due to compounding stress, and we're just disillusioned by all the stuff that we've experienced in life. The second is like vascular stiffening. So as we get older, we actually know that we have vascular stiffening, whether it be due to things like atherosclerotic plaque buildup or the heartening of arteries, like that can occur. This steep decrease. The great news though, is that even though we see declination in HRV across the longitudinal studies in regards to age, we actually know that the ceiling for HRV isn't reduced. And so what I mean by that is that just because it declines doesn't mean that we can't increase it and doesn't mean that there is some ceiling that's like, okay, once I hit 60 years old, I'll never get over 30 milliseconds. So that's the good news. So age is one, non-modifiable factor. The second one would be genetics. And I guess given kind of advances in technology like CRISPR and stuff, people might argue that you can now influence this aspect, but I would say that currently with what we have, we cannot influence it. It's just genetics. Like some people are actually just born with a genetic predisposition towards lower heart rate variability. So when we look at twin studies on heredibility of these genes related to cardiovascular structure and nervous system structure, like we find that there is a pretty moderate to high influence of genetics on HRV. And kind of as a story, like I see this all the time with my pro athletes actually, I'll have a pro athlete come into my clinic and I'll have one come in who is an Olympic sprinter, who is in the best cardiovascular condition that you could ever imagine, VO2 max like out the roof, but his actual HRV is like in the 30s, 40s. And then I'll have another guy like an NFL, let's say lineman who maybe isn't in the highest degree of cardiovascular shape, but it's still a good shape to be able to take on all that they do. And genetically, they just have a high predisposition toward HRV and it's in the 150s, 160s. And so it's like, okay, who is one healthier than the other? Because one has a whole higher HRV versus low HRV. And the answer is that we have no evidence in the literature to suggest that that HRV should be seen, that number absolute value should be seen as longevity metric. Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically, non-alcoholic brews taste like ass. You don't need to be doing some big reset, maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning, which is why I am such a huge fan of athletic brewing coat. They've got 50 types of Na's, including IPAs, goldens and even limited releases like a cocktail inspired paloma and Moscow mule. And here's the thing, you can drink them anytime. 8 nights, early mornings, watching sports, playing sports, doesn't matter. No hangover, no compromise, and that is why I partnered with them. You can find athletic brewing coats best selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors, shipped right to your door. Right now, you can get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom, that's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom. Should, if I was to be able to put myself into the mind, the experience of each of those two different people, different personalities, different life experiences, different, everything, but if I was able to experience their HIV or experience their nervous system, do you have anything that indicates that the guy at 150 and the guy at 30 would experience their nervous systems differently? Because what you're saying here is, what matters is you relative to you over time, not you relative to somebody else, and the reason that they have that set point is because of a lot of things that are non-modifiable and modifiable. But even those things taken into account, would their experience of their nervous systems be different? Would the guy at 150 be more likely to be able to come back down after some sort of high arousal state? Is he going to be more likely to fall asleep more quickly or is it literally just all contained within the system and they're completely uncomparable? Yeah, the answer broadly is no, their experience, if you were to jump in to say someone who has a 200 milliseconds, 250, 300 milliseconds, RMSSD value in their HRV baseline reading overnight, you wouldn't necessarily inherently experience anything different, purely just based on that baseline reading. Now that person may have really strong, what's called, barrow reflex gain or a really strong adaptive nervous system to stress because maybe they've been training it or some other things are influencing their ability to be resilient in terms of a nervous system perspective. You may notice it then, depending on kind of your baseline level of stress and anxiety, but just purely based on feel. No, it's kind of like, I think this is kind of analogous to blood pressure, right? So if you were to have, let's say, a standard blood pressure of 120 over 75, and then you were to hop into the body of somebody who has like, say, a 145 over 95, you wouldn't necessarily experience it just kind of at baseline, a difference in feel between those. And so that's kind of synonymous, or I guess I would say analogous to HRV, but if you got somebody who's got a very well-dynamically trained nervous system to adapt to stress, and so their inherent physiology knows what to do when an encounter is stressed and almost does it subconsciously, you might experience that, especially if you had a high propensity towards things like anxiety, stress, even depression. Interesting. What about the modifiable ones? Well, let me, let me mention one more non-modifiable because this is another one that I get to pick on females about. So good. So there's a good enough of that on this question. I have right exactly another tall white guy, pick on females. Men, so sex differences is the non-modifiable, again, another one that we can get in trouble on. Sex differences. The, we know from the literature, men typically have a higher average heart rate variability than women do. And actually, six foot five guy here, taller guys typically have higher heart rate variability, and actually a lower resonant frequency rates of breathing, well, I'm sure we're going to talk about resonant frequency rates as well. And this is just a sex difference that we see. And one of the main reasons is that women, as we know, go through a 28-day cycle. And so because of this menstruation cycle that, or menstrual cycle that they go through, we actually know that different phases of their cycle can influence different hormonal expressions, so mostly stark drops in things like progesterone, and in estrogen, especially during the late luteal phase, can increase sympathetic drive and reduce heart rate variability pretty significantly. So when you average that out across time, we see that women's, especially pre-mint and pausal women, their HRV tends to be quite lower than men's. Okay. Modifiable. Yeah. Modifiable. So we actually know that when someone increases things like stroke volume, when they increase or lower blood pressure, and especially when they lower their heart rate, resting heart rate, that this can indeed increase baseline heart rate variability. I never say that HRV, because we should say what HRV is useful for and what it's not useful for, because this is not like a catch-all metric that can be used for everything. I actually think it's best used in conjunction with other metrics. So it's kind of like a piece of the puzzle, as opposed to the full puzzle itself, cardio respiratory fitness. So as VF2 max increases, we know that resting heart rate decreases, stroke volume of the heart increases, and so therefore we actually see heart rate variability improvements. And this can be, and this can range. It can range from pretty significant changes in baseline HRV to not much at all. I don't like to set it as the goalpost. So it's like, "Hey, I want to raise my HRV." And so therefore I should go get better cardio respiratory fitness. I think we're thinking about it in the wrong way. It's a bit ass backwards there. I think it's, "Hey, let's increase cardio respiratory fitness because we know it's great for health wellness and longevity and also great for mood and mental health." And then the byproduct of that is that we'll see typically HRV in increase. The other one is chronic health conditions. So we know that people who have chronic health conditions like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, chronic pain, there's all significantly lower heart rate variability. So the one thing that I would say is that if you were battling with any of those kind of conditions, and it probably doesn't even need to be said, is that working on kind of managing those is going to be a significant way to move heart rate variability in the right direction. And then the last one, which is probably what I'd argue, and I'm a little bit biased on this, as the most important, is just overall stress load. Like if you are someone who is like the typical person in today's day and age, especially in Mexicans, is that we are freaking stressed all the time. And this chronic buildup of stress over time then results or equates to a nervous system that becomes way more rigid, way less adaptive. We're not able to actually have these things that we encounter in a day-to-day basis bounce off of us as easily. And so therefore, we kind of retreat to just kind of this chronic state of stress where on high alert, scanning the environments for threats, non-stop. And that has a negative and net negative compounding effect on us. And so I think that if there's anything that people could do is just creating better adaptability to internal and external stress. Okay. What doesn't it measure? What does HIV not measure? Yeah. HIV is not a measure of direct stress. I think a lot of people will think of, oh, I see HIV and that's how stressed I am. And so therefore then I should. You did just say something that sounds a lot like HIV would be a direct measure of stress. Okay. But let me. I can backped a little bit and say where I say there. So. And I think you're talking about me saying, how do we improve it is by helping. Yeah. If you are more stressed, therefore over time your HIV is going to decrease. Yes. Therefore, my HIV has gone down. I must be stressed. Right. What I should. What I should say is that when I think about stress, I'm thinking about the psychological construct of stress. And so there's physiological stress and psychological stress and both of them actually manifest in the body the same way. I don't look at HIV and say, like so for instance, if I put a strap on you and I said, okay, let's measure Chris's HRV right now. And it's a singular reading. No, I know a good bit about your HRV, but let's just say I didn't know anything about your HRV. And I looked at that data point. What could I tell you about your stress response? The answer is I could tell you basically nothing. In singular reading, outside of any context in regards to HRV, isn't a signaling window to me telling you, I can see how, you know, on a spectrum how stress Chris is. I can't gain that. Now, over time, I can say, HRV is showing me how well you adapt to stress, how flexible you are to stress, not how stressed you are, but how adaptable to stress you are. There's nuance there. So there's a difference between those two. So I can't just take that absolute value and number and say, okay, I'm at a 50 milliseconds this morning when I took my HRV reading. And so therefore, like, I know that I am stressed. And so when people try to tap into that as a, hey, I'm going to use that as the guide, it sets them up for disaster. Because then we have this nasty unwinding, like self-fulfilling prophecy of people looking at these data points, and especially without context, just looking at singular data points. And then using that to drive decisions, because one reading of HRV should never be used to drive decision making. Okay. It seems to me at the moment that our ability to measure HRV is significantly better than our understanding of how to influence it. We've been given a ton of really great tools, and you can wear your aura or your whoop or your apple watch, and it will give you this reading. And yet, almost no one really understands what it is. It's kind of a complex metric. It's not superbly simple. It's taking you half an hour to kind of deconstruct what it means. And I think if you were to ask most people, even woop wearers, you're HRV. If I told you that you need to increase it by 5% next month, what would you do? Sleep more, maybe, let's say something like that. I know that it's to do with stress, so I'll try and be less stressed, whatever that means. Maybe I'll try and become fitter or something, but directly influencing HRV and sort of what the constituent parts are. So yeah, at the moment, it does seem a lot like people have got the ability to detect it, but aren't yet able to influence it. Yeah. I want to give credit where credit's due. And it's like these wearable companies, so fill in the blank, whoop or a Pyson Apple, all these great wearable companies that are out there that people are leveraging. I think I heard like the last stab was like 40% of Americans, I think, or maybe like even close to like some 50% of the wearable. Have some form of wearable. So we're all getting this biometric data. The problem is, and so much frustration starts to arise when people wake up and they say, well, I have this data point here that's supposed to drive some level of self awareness but it's not necessarily driving any type of action. And I think that's where people can get frustrated. So you tell me that my nervous system is dysregulated, you tell me that my sleep is poor, but now what do I do about it? So in that sense, I think that diagnostics have really kind of outpaced the interventions side of what we can actually do. And so part of me is like, well, now I think it's time to bring to the light like things that people can actually do that have been proven within the cyber scientific literature to help you make these adaptations to the nervous system so that we can, again, take all the great data that we get from wearables. We can leverage that data, but then use it in a way that's applied. And actually, if one of the things that I like to say is that HRV is best used in an applied real time setting. And I think that's actually where most people don't have an understanding and then therefore probably not an appreciation for HRV as much as they should, because they've never used it in an applied real time setting. You wake up the next morning and your whip gives you a score of what you had last night. And maybe you can work out that you did something yesterday. I mean, if you had a beer before you went to bed, you're okay, there we go, associated in my journal or whatever. But yeah, you're right that everybody has this number that kind of appears and feels almost at the mercy of it. It's down, again, I guess I'm not doing something right, but the ability to intervene isn't as educated. Okay, so one of the things that we've kind of hinted at is that there are ways that you can state change and ways that you can trade change. So there are sort of immediate acute ways that you can intervene. And then over time, there is adaptability side to the nervous system. Is it doing longitudinally across the months, across the years, across your entire life? Talk to me about the difference between a state change and a trade change in this context. So much confusion arises because people think, or they ask the question to me all the time, it's like, well, is this breathing strategy or meditative strategy just going to affect me in the hearing now? So more of an acute transient change? Or is there actual evidence to suggest that if I consistently practice this, then I'll have more trait or longitudinal changes. So state changes are things that are occurring transiently, so happening right now. And then trade changes are things that are actually occurring across time that are building a more robust system. You can think about it as more of like, if we fine-tune the engine of a car over time. So maybe we know that there's a little bit of some, I'm not a mechanic here, but maybe we know that there's some creeks and some things that are going wrong. We hear the belt, kind of like not working in its proper way. And we fine-tune it over time so that we can create a more robust engine that maybe one day we create this car that we're working on over time to create more of like a racecar or something that can actually perform at a really high level. So we know that things like breathing is probably the single greatest lever that we can pull, maybe aside from focusing on sleep, that breathing is one of the greatest levers that we can pull towards state change. But it's also a lever that we can pull more towards. State change, and we have really great studies and evidence based that I use to kind of base my claim here. State change, what is happening when we are, let's say, engaging in something like slow pace breathing or resonance breathing, which we know is an effective strategy for shifting and regulating the nervous system. We start to create this internal environment. We start to distinctively change our physiology so that it experiences a position of safety, a position of security. I always like to kind of share the story, it's like it would make no sense that if we were in face of a viable threat, let's say the mountain lions chasing us, for us to stop and take a moment to do some deep breathing, because we need to execute and mobilize all that energy, the sympathetic nervous system needs to be firing on all cylinders, we need to have that parasympathetic withdrawal, we need everything that we can to get out of that or fight in that environment. So when we take the time to slow our breathing down, we're sending direct physiological signals up to the brain and to the central nervous system that says, well, the only opportunity that we would want to utilize this strategy is when we're in a safe and protected environment. And so therefore, from a physiological perspective, all of these dynamics, all these things start to dynamically change, and we can get into the dynamics of what's occurring in the physiology if you like, but all of these are happening so that we can calm and rest the nervous system in that moment. And that then results in that experience of relaxation. However, and that's great acutely, like we want that big meeting coming up that you have to speak with investors, we need to be able to down regulate the nervous system and change that state really quickly, reducing anxiety, improvement, locuity, etc. But that is only going to last for so long. So how do we build a robust system that then starts to translate into basically all areas of life, and where we're not having to consciously think about regulating our nervous system? And that is where trait change starts to take place. And that can only come from consistent practice of resonance breathing, of any other type of meditation, whatever it may be for nervous system regulation. And the interesting thing, or the analogy I like to make about this, it's like going to the gym, right? So I can go into the gym right now and get a really great bicep workout, get a really great pump. And it feels excellent, blood's flowing in the muscles, great, great day. But then if I don't ever go back to the gym again, it's like, well, I had that nice, great workout. That was a great state change for that period of time. But I didn't make these adaptations. My muscles didn't get stronger because of that. They didn't get larger because of that. The nervous system works in the exact same way. So it's like, when I do a lot of these practices that I'm sure we'll get into, I think about me every single time it's like me going to the nervous system gym and every breath that I take. That's like a rep. Every time I do 10 minutes of this breathing practice, that's like a workout. And I know that as I compound workouts across time, the research has demonstrated that we actually experience more longitudinal or trait changes or our nervous system's thermostat starts to actually dial in the direction that we're training it. And that's when we can, and that's when we've made a nervous system that's flexible and can handle a lot of the things that stress that like throws at us like stress. A quick aside, do you remember learning about the mighty mitochondria back in grade school? Here's a quick refresher. It's the tiny engine inside of your cells that powers everything you do. But here's what they didn't teach you. As you age, your mitochondria break down, that's what can cause you to feel tired more often, take longer to recover and wake up feeling like you're never fully recharged, no matter how long you sleep. I've started taking timeline nearly two years ago because it is the best product on the market for mitochondrial health, and that is why I partnered with them. Timeline is the number one doctor recommended uralithin A supplement with a compound called mitepure. Basically, it helps your body clear out damaged mitochondria and replace them with new ones. Mitepure is backed by over 15 years of research, over 50 patents and nearly a dozen human clinical trials. It was recommended to me by my doctor, and that is why I've used it for so long since way before I knew who even made the product. First of all, there's a 30 day money back guarantee plus free shipping in the US and they ship internationally. Until the end of January, you can get 30 percent off a one month supply by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline dot com slash modern wisdom 30. That's timeline dot com slash modern wisdom 30. How fast does our nervous system actually respond to these interventions? You do the thing, let's say that someone's about to go into a meeting and they're feeling nervous and they do some resonance breathing. How quickly does that nervous system actually adapt? Not adapt. How quickly does it respond? A lot of it depends on how long they've been doing it and how consistently, but let's say, let's take it from this person's never heard of resonance breathing. They've never done a single resonance breath and I know we have done pack what resonance breathing actually is, but let's just say they've never done it. Like their nervous system will begin to respond. So vagal firing, the 10th cranial nerve, the vagus nerve will begin firing almost instantaneously. So within seconds, they'll start to make these really beautiful oscillations in their heart rate. They may be small initially, but within seconds, it starts to, it starts to respond. Funny thing enough is that the parasympathetic nervous system, so again, the parachute brings us down. The relaxation response works much faster than the sympathetic nervous system. It'll be surprising given that you think someone fires a gun or a line comes at you, the sympathetic would turn on very quickly. You're saying that the opposite is true, that the parasympathetic is even quicker. It's even quicker. And so it's not to say that the sympathetic nervous system isn't fast. It's really fast. However, the parasympathetic nervous system is much faster because when we think about the vagus nerve, which is our wandering nerve, it innervates basically every part of our body and sense communication up to the medulla in the brain, which is like basically a control system, the birth-central nervous system, it responds immensely quickly. And one of the fastest ways that we can shift that state is just breathing. So for you, within a single breath, you can actually start to enhance that vagal activation, which is a pretty incredible feature that we have as human beings is to be able to use something as simple as our breath to adapt that quickly because you can't go to sleep right now. You said one of the other ways is to work on sleep. I can't sleep right now. Yeah. But I can breathe right now. Yeah. You can breathe right now. And the thing as it's to you is that you can do it in a controlled environment where nobody's watching you and you can be using a device or an apparatus great. You can do it that way. But you can also do it in an environment where there's plenty of people and no one's really knowing that you're sitting there regulating your nervous system. I've been trying to do it here since we've been talking. It's just slow the pace of my breathing down because as people probably hear, I tend to get quite excited and I can talk fast. When I slow my breathing down, that can actually increase my overall mental acuity. And then therefore, why does it increase mental acuity? So that probably takes a little bit of time just to explain the science behind this. And you can kind of like slap me for going like a little bit too much. Keep it simple. Okay. We'll keep it simple. So, our body has a natural blood pressure regulation system in it called the Barrow Reflex Response. The Barrow Reflex Response is essentially like cruise control for your blood pressure. It's always trying to kind of dial up and dial down whenever it needs to, based on what it's seeing in terms of physiological change. That Barrow Reflex mechanism is what bridges the gap between our autonomic nervous system and our cardiovascular system. So it's kind of that bridge or pathway for communication. When our Barrow Reflex is not working like it should, so let's say we're experiencing some nervous system dysregulation. What happens within the Barrow Reflex mechanism is that it essentially will identify changes in blood pressure, and then immediately it will try to overshoot to course correct. Because it basically is like, I'm on high alert, I'm going to send the signal to the nervous system that we need to really course correct. It's like a great example of this is like the older cars with like cruise control, when they first came out with cruise control, they were like really crappy at like actually doing what they're supposed to do. So the speed would modulate like 5 to 10 miles an hour, and then the engine would just like abruptly like shift and would overshoot. Now we're going 5 to 10 miles over, whereas like the newer cars, they have better Barrow Reflex gain because a mile an hour over and it adjusts nicely and smoothly. So you can imagine that when your nervous system is dysregulated and you're having all of these overshootings of blood pressure that are occurring, it causes a lot of different dynamics in terms of how we feel increased heart rate, blood rushing kind of to places really quickly, like when blood pressure goes up, you may not be able to necessarily feel it. If you don't have a high level of interoception or feeling of the body, but if you do, then you can kind of notice how it impacts mental acuity for the most part. So why does it impact mental acuity is that that Barrow Reflex response when it becomes quite dysregulated, it changes basically like blood flow dynamics and vagal firing dynamics, which can cause that stress response to become quite heightened and almost like unruly and uncontrolled, which basically will start to flood our nervous system to think that there is a threat that's within kind of like distance of us. And so therefore our mind is now trying to pursue all the different ways to kind of fight or flee and get out of there as opposed to kind of like locking in, getting into this night's deep flow state where blood pressure is really nicely managed in the way that it should be. So if you think that there's a line over your shoulder, now is not the time to remember the speech that you're trying to present in 20 minutes, you're not recruiting your mental faculties in order to be able to do that, you're busy worrying about this, like, imaginary target. And the problem though is that the tiger may be all the people in front of you, am I going to embarrass myself, am I going to get into a situation where I don't land the deal or I don't say things the way that I'm supposed to. And so now it's all this, it's not a viable threat, it's a perceived threat, but it's having the impact on your physiology and your mental acuity, like a viable threat would. Okay, how about actually changing the underlying nervous system adaptation, then we've talked about kind of the state change, what about the trade change, how long does that take to actually get someone's nervous system to adapt and move over time. This is all going to come from literature on resonance frequency biofeedback. So resonance frequency is kind of a long-winded way or a very kind of complex way of saying, is that we can modulate our breathing, like the speed of breathing, which is frequency, kind of how fast we breathe, to create physiological resonance in the body. The resonance from a physiological perspective is when two or more systems are oscillating at the same speed. So they're working in synergy with one another, they're oscillating at the same rate. So when we do something like resonance breathing, which was coined by a guy named Paul Lear out of Rutgers Medical School, who found that breathing at certain paces, and for adult humans this is generally from four and a half breaths per minute as to high a six and a half per minute, when we breathe kind of within that range and we can pinpoint specifically where our resonance frequency is through some different testing, when we breathe at that rate we start to align what's called our respiratory sinus arrhythmia, which is as we inhale again, heart rates going up and as we exhale, heart rate goes down. So it creates this beautiful kind of like sinusoidal pattern. We align breathing and respiration with heart rate, and then we also align that with our Barra reflex mechanism that I was referring to just a second ago. When you do one single session of resonance breathing, you can start to make those initial adaptations at about minute six to 12. So sweet spot is probably around minute 10 or so from the literature. When you do that consistently, so in the research studies when they've looked at different cohorts where they've compared that type of breathing, resonance breathing, they've generally found that breathing for 10 minutes at the resonance rate around four to six days a week actually led to trait changes of the autonomic nervous system and as little as four weeks as much as 12 weeks, so kind of like split the difference about eight to 10 is when we really see people start to make those changes. What was the mean change, do you know? And when you say mean change, what was the average change increase, 5%, 1% 10%? Are we talking about heart rate variability? Yeah. So heart rate variability is one of the things that they were looking at. So low frequency power, which is basically like how much vagal output, how strong the signal of vagal output. So we saw that change by a magnitude anywhere from, I mean, we'd see it go from anywhere from 50% to as much as 300, 400%. That's during the session. Yep. Yes. However, baseline changes, which we're actually looking at more of like fine blood pressure changes that are occurring. So that's actually more of the sign of is someone actually making a trait change, which is as we breathe is blood pressure following very specifically, like a fine tuned fork with your breathing. If it's not, then we have what's called low barrow reflex gain, the nervous system's having a hard time keeping up. It's that cruise control example, really hard time adapting. But when we have high barrow reflex gain, which comes from all this consistent training of HRV biofeedback or resonance breathing, then that fine tunement then results in our ability to adapt quickly and that quick adaptation then results in blood pressure moving at an instant when you tell it and very smoothly when you tell it. So low frequency power and HRV can increase significantly as well, but high frequency power is another one. So at resting baseline, we're actually looking at changes in what's called high frequency power. And we see that that can change an order of magnitude anywhere from 20, 40, 50 percent. I don't think I'm fully up to speed on what low frequency power and high frequency power are. So we, when you are looking at your whoops score every single morning, and you see that number that is HRV, it's in milliseconds. We call that a time domain indices, a time domain indices is exactly as it says, it's just looking at the time difference between successive heartbeat. We can take the data, which is all those raw intervals between heartbeat, so all those time intervals, and we can apply some mathematical equations and algorithms to it, something called an FFT or a fast Fourier transformation, which is essentially when we take those data run it through a prism and then get the component rhythm values of that best way to explain this because that's probably very confusing is to think about this as being analogous to an EEG. If I put electrodes all over your head, I look at your brain wave states and the amount of signaling and power of that brain wave, and I get this raw EEG. It can take that raw EEG, and I can filter it and start to get the component real rhythms of your of your brain wave state and how strong they're responding, alpha, beta, theta, gamma, delta, and so forth. We can do the same thing and look at characteristics of your cardiovascular system. We just call it something different in the HRV world. It's just three bands that are typically looked at. It's the very low frequency band, low frequency, and high frequency. When you're breathing at a slow-paced rate, so you're doing HRV biofeedback, for instance, a resonance breathing, you start to create these really long sinusoidal low frequency oscillations of your heart rate. The peak to trough differences between your heart rate start to change significantly. At rest, your heart rate is going from 60 up to 63, 64, 65, and then back down. Now, we're going from your heart rate to 60, it's going up to 75, 80, 90, even if you have a really strong barato reflex gain, and then it's dropping. It's going well below 60 to 55, 50, 40, 45. That's low frequency power. These real sinusoidal large scale changes in the heart rate. We see someone that has a lot of power in the low frequency bands. We typically know that they're breathing at a really slow rate, and that's an oscillation that's occurring, that's in line, again, with that barato reflex response. High frequency power is what we call the respiratory sinus arrhythmia band. At rest, when you're not breathing at a slow pace, most of the power should be in the high frequency band, because that's where just the normal breathing oscillations should occur. When we look at high frequency power, we know that as someone becomes more attuned to resonance breathing, that number increases, because your vagus nerve is what is driving the power there. Whether you're not directly training the high frequency stuff, low frequency work impact the high frequency. 100%. That's it. I mean, it's good that it is that way. Or else, you'd have to do high frequency training, you'd have to do two different types of training, which would be annoying. Yeah. And you can kind of book in it. A lot of companies, like you're doing biofeedback, we'll book in it. They're not doing training, but they're doing pre-post analysis. They're looking at, okay, when you start the session, what is your time domain in the season? Low frequency, high frequency band look like. When you do the session, we look at all that data in terms of frequency domains. And at the end of the session, we look at that data and we say, okay, from pre-to-post, what was the significant? It was there a significant increase in high frequency power at rest. And then across time, we actually start to look and plot, okay, baseline, high frequency power has gone from, you know, whatever, it's 10,000 millisecond squared to be really high. We'll go 2,000 millisecond squared. And now that's when they started the biofeedback practice, they've done it consistently for 10 weeks. And now at rest, it's at like 6,000 millisecond squared worth of power. That tells us that that delta of 4,000 millisecond squared power indicates that there was indeed actual entrainment of the nervous system across the period of time. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Look, 2026 is the year that you're finally going to launch that business you've been thinking about for ages because, as you've heard me harp on about making it to do list for the thing, isn't doing the thing. Telling people you're going to do the thing still isn't doing the thing, but here's the good news. Shopify makes it unbelievably easy to actually do the thing. They make it very simple to create your brand, open for business, and get your first sale. They've got thousands of customizable templates, so all you need to do is drag and drop. You don't need coding skills or design skills. You can manage things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one simple dashboard. And when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. They check out this 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms and with shop pay. You can boost conversions up to 50%. Shopify takes all of the messiness of running a business off your plate so that you can focus on the job that you came here to do, which is designing and selling an awesome product. And right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description below, by heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all over case. That shopify.com/modernwisdom to start selling today. Okay. Talk to me about biofeedback, resonance, breathing. These are terms people probably haven't heard before. Resonance breathing, oh, here's the one thing too that I'll mention. And in an effort not to be too much of like a contrarian curmudgeon, who we like that alliteration there, in an effort not to do that, I will say that I think that there's been a bit of a disservice and that resonance breathing in and of itself has not seen the daylight yet in the health and wellness sphere. And I'm glad that we're having this discussion and bringing it to light because I honestly think that as far as breathing strategy goes, it's one of the most overlooked forms of or interventions that we have for dynamically shifting the nervous system. Everybody does, but most people are familiar with breath work. Almost everybody has done some form of it, even if it's just they use waking up with some horizon. He tells you to take a breath in and a breath out at the very beginning. Something like that. All the way up to, they've gone to do a breath work class, they've tried whim half, they've done allotropic stuff, maybe they've done slow paced breathing, maybe they've done box breathing, five, five, five, five, maybe they've done some, some other version of this whatever is the seven, three, eight, three circle or whatever. But this is kind of taking it to a bit of a different level. Yeah. What we don't have in the literature is that those other breathing strategies that you used, and this is again, I don't want to push back too hard on this whole field of breath work. I do have some gripe with the general field of breath work that I can talk about, but I don't want to be like, I don't want to over index on saying like all of it's bad. I just think that a lot of it's just been people have taken way too much advantage of it. The one thing that all those breath work practices that you mentioned don't have are robust studies demonstrating trade change. They're just not there, at least to my knowledge. I'm more than willing to wave the white flag if that comes out and be a proponent of those types of strategies. If we see later down the road that they indeed are effective, not just in changing people's state change, but are actually going to change people's inner workings of their nervous system adaptation. I think a lot of people when they're doing breath work in that manner, they're not even necessarily thinking about the trade change to their physiology over time. A lot of people are using breath work as a state shift. In fact, I think state shift is one of the biggest breath work apps, and they're using it to get themselves more energized and alert or calmer in the moment, or they're using it to bypass a few blocks in their psychology to allow them to access emotions that maybe they've been struggling to deal with, to do some kind of a release, to work with a practitioner, to help them through kind of the level zero of the psychedelic pyramid, includes you using breath work to kind of just alter your experience of the world a little. And I feel a bit different about talking about that problem now or the relationship stress that's been weighing on me for a little while. It's come out and I've not been able to stop it and that felt cathartic or whatever. I don't think most people are thinking about this is a real physiological hypertrophy training for my vagus nerve input. Agreed. Agreed. And there's nothing wrong with that. So just to be clear, I think that if someone is utilizing some type of proprietary novel way of nervous system coaching or breathing or breath work, they're doing it because I want to have the state change, I want to experience some relaxation, I just want to be relaxed for now. Yeah. Totally fine with it. Now, are they going to necessarily experience the continued downstream effects maybe, but we don't necessarily have the research to suggest that many of these more novel practices do indeed have these longer term trait changes. I mean, even something that like is being talked about a lot today in the health of the atmosphere in terms of breathing, which is the physiological sigh or cyclic sighing doesn't necessarily have the robust research, like definitely doesn't have the robust research that resonance breathing does on longer term, longer systemic change in the nervous system. It wouldn't surprise me that the people who want to keep them and pill that sort of big breath in, top it off, and then blow out through typically post leaps. Yeah. How many times you're doing that to think, oh, yeah, if I do this twice a day, it's two breaths, dude, like it really is the time and attention sufficient to do that. Okay. Your disclaimer about the potential problems with the fucking world of breathwork are out. Talk to me about resonance breathing and biofeedback. What is it? Why does it work? How do you do it? Yeah. So biofeedback was discovered back in the 60s, 70s, and it was initially discovered by a lot of Russian physiologists who were actually studying space exploration and trying to get the Russians up to space, and so therefore they were looking at, oh, how do we ensure that we get these astronauts in the best physiological shape that we possibly can. And so they just started measuring everything. They said, we're going to measure every single metric that we possibly can. And then they came across and said, well, actually, now that we've measured it and we have seen, because this is when they came across heart rate variability, that there are these interesting characteristics of people's nervous systems that I think we're looking at when we look at HRV, but we don't really know for sure. The only way to test that really is to start introducing different interventions or start introducing different things that we see in real time or actually moving the needle in terms of people's nervous system response. And so then back in the 60s, 70s, researchers here in the U.S. started to team up with these Russian researchers. They said, okay, we see that they're dynamic aspects of the nervous system that we can measure here. We also noticed that when people breathe, something kind of weird happens with their HRV, something weird happens with all these dynamics, but we can't fully explain it. So we should start to put it to the test. So they started to say, well, what if we manipulate that thing? What if we manipulate things like breathing? Can that then change how the nervous system responds in real time? And then later on, of course, the research says, can it respond? Can it start to respond that way in baseline? So where people don't have to consciously move the needle? And that's where HRV biofeedback was kind of like discovered. And the word resonance breathing, kind of like we were mentioning earlier, was something that was coined because we saw that again, we're aligning these physiological mechanisms of breathing and heart rate and also our blood pressure regulation. When we can align all of those things at the same exact time, we start to create this beautiful symphony, this beautiful pattern, this great relationship. We start to see that instead of just the throttle of the gas pedal, so that sympathetic nervous system, being kind of like modulated on and off and the brake pedal being modulated on and off, just kind of at random, if you will, and by random, I mean, because of physiology, we actually start to see that you can use breathing to do the brake in and out. So kind of like flutter the brake in and out at will. And so resonance frequency came along when Dr. Paul Layer said, okay, I see that there's these fixed characteristics of this barrel reflex response, of this breathing response on heart rate and respiratory sinusoidal rhythmia. Let's see what happens like when we introduce this as a training protocol. And when they started to introduce this as a training protocol and they published many studies on this, they found that, well, not only are we changing someone's physiology, but people are now saying, well, I feel a lot less stressed. I feel like I'm adapting better, I don't feel like stress is kind of like running over me as much as I can. I feel mood lifting, so less of that, like negative emotional valence there. And so biofeedback has been around for quite some time, and many companies have tried to introduce biofeedback in a way that's consumer friendly. But the problem is is that there's always been so much friction to doing it. And again, like we've been talking about it for a while, it's not an easy topic for most people to understand. So what does it then require? Well, you got to pay a clinician. It's really expensive. You got to use all of this hardcore software and gear. It becomes quite difficult. So how can we just make this accessible to everybody? Well, these technology companies came out and said, well, we'll just use kind of like everyday sensors. We'll use like wearables or a chest strap, like an EKG chest strap. And then we'll just have you, like breathe at this, with this pacer in and out, you'll be able to watch your heart rate variability in real time. And then over time, that will then indeed result in improved autonomic flexibility, better emotional and stress resiliency, and so forth. So HRV biofeedback is a tool that we use. It is an intervention tool, so as opposed to just looking at HRV as a data point, where it's actually using HRV in real time to guide the changes that are occurring in your nervous system. Biofeedback being biological feedback and real detecting something coming from the body, and then telling you to do something with your breathing in order to maximize that big wave of high heart rate on the in-breath and low heart rate on the out-breath. Yeah. That's correct. Yeah. Why can I not just do some sort of assessment in a lab, find out what my resonance frequency is, how many breaths per minute? I've done this with other variables, and then it says, I think mine is 4.5 breaths a minute and I think that that split is 4.9 seconds in, 7.5 seconds out, with 0.5 on either end or something. I can just do that. And then once I've got my frequency assessment done once, going for a blood pressure check, I'd get my teeth done, going every six months, find out if my frequency's changed. I don't know whether it does. Why can't I just do that? Yeah. So you're saying go do that and then utilize it as an intervention, or just count to five and then count down, or make a track on chat GPT that gets me to breathe in and breathe out at that sort of a pace. Is it, does it not lock in in that kind of way if I found my frequency, is that not always my frequency? Yeah. It's a great question. The answer to this is that you could, I want 100% to do that. You could actually go into a clinician and have them run the full, you know, 12 to 15 minute pole layer protocol, get your resonance frequency rate, tell you kind of like, here's your inhalation, exhalation ratio, the timing, and you could do it by yourself. Like you could 100% do that because the intervention is in the breathing itself. It's not in the data. However, what I think is huge here that goes missing is that it's only as good as if you actually do it. So you actually have to be practicing it. And so many people have a hard time with getting into the habit and discipline of doing something like slow pace or resonance breathing without having a high degree of accountability. It's, it's, so you could, you could do it. I haven't met a lot of people that have been that successful. And me saying, here's your resonance protocol, like go time it in your head and go do it. I just haven't seen it. Well, this is why guided meditation practices have become so good at keeping people as compliance. Now, you do waking up. I'm using this new one at somebody, Shuckman, Alan Shuckman, maybe Ferris put me onto it. Oh, the way. Yeah. Really cool, lovely, single path, an actual path that's sort of drawn out. And I thought it was really, really fun. So I'm doing that. And I've meditated thousands of times. I'm like, I'm done with unguided for a bit. I want someone to hold my hand as I go through this. So I think that you're right. And dude, I mean, I'm asking you questions that I'm interested in, but I already believe in the answer to, which is you got me onto resonance breathing almost a year ago now. And I was using some arm strap thing with an induction charger. And then you sent me out an own lamp, which for the people that are listening, there's a lamp in between us on the table. And I told Shuckman about this in November of last year, and I'm completely sold. I think that resonance breathing is probably the next big wave of intervention that we're going to see. We've seen breath work, although it hasn't really, apart from Wim Hof, it hasn't fully broken through. If you would say, what's the go-to meditation app, you'd say, like headspace or calm, or waking up? What's the go-to breath work app, you go, maybe Wim Hof or something. So some breath work has, but as you kind of identified, it's good for some things, but the data behind it isn't necessarily there. And it's also getting, it's also getting kind of like lumped in there with a lot of woo-woo practices right now, unfortunately. Like a lot of people are seeing breath work, it's because so many people are hanging up their shingle. And they're saying, look at me, I've got this new proprietary best in the class, nervous system, coaching breath work practice for you. And this is kind of the path for you. And then when I see it, like, how's that a conference a couple of weeks ago, and I, they had a breath work practitioner who's up on stage. And she was speaking about how, and the audience was kind of like jiving along with it. So maybe I just don't, I'm not spiritual enough to understand it. But she kept saying things like, with our breathing, we create these new realities and holograms of ourself that we can then manifest and then fill in the blank. And everybody's kind of like shaking their head and I'm back there like, what are we talking about? Maybe I just, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you're just the most clinician, clinician that ever did clinician. It's everybody has been to one of these seminars, at least in Austin, Texas, everybody's been to them. A lot of people listening in the UK, they're like, what the fuck are you talking about? I get it, man, breath work kind of bridges the gap between the psychedelic esoteric I'm off to do I wascker in the Amazon people. And a business guy that's a bit stressed or a pregnant mom that heard the breath work is good to sort of chill her out and is as blue collar as they come. And these two groups of people meet at third eye meditation lounge here in downtown Austin or at suka yoga or on all 12th street or whatever. And it really is a bit of an oil and water situation because you're seeing typically the practitioners that have dedicated their lives to teaching it are the ones who have gone down the esoteric a rabbit hole a little bit more deeply. We've got a great friend, Aaron Alexander from the Align podcast. Hello, Baron. Aaron's great. Yeah. He's doing a lot of breath work coaching as far as I can see in my at the moment, I think and I haven't seen, I haven't done any of his stuff live. And he's kept it, he's pretty sort of evidence based. But I've seen some of the fucking hats that people wear who attend those classes. I'm like, I know who you are from that fucking hat. I can tell. You can tell. There's too much, there's too many fucking corks hanging from it, too many beads on. And that's kind of their thing in that world, but I understand it's good when you talk about functionality. I guess, I do say like felt sense of interestingly resonance. Like I resonate with what that person's saying and that speaks to me in it persona and narrative and mythology and arc, right? It brings these characters to life. We manifest our reality out there, strength and resilience and your better self and vibrations and higher and all that stuff, doesn't necessarily show up in the data and that is what your world is. And I think in the same way as we had, even though there's been a lot of pushback, a revolution in lifting, where evidence based came through, or what does the science tell us about the rap range and the pacing and the loading and the frequency and the rest and so on and so helpful, the same thing is now happening when it comes to breathing. And I don't know of any data apart from the stuff that comes out of resonance breathing that says, this is how you breathe in order to enact a trait change over time. Everybody that's tried to, when you were a kid and you would breathe in and out really fast, you go, I feel a little bit like headed, great, you've just done a state change. Congratulations, but in order to be able to get to the trait change and this is where making claims about holographically manifesting your new vibration reality come into conflict with a little bit of the data. So, yeah, I think I've been doing some form of resonance breathing, low tech and slightly high tech now for a while, but you are right, the consistency thing is so tough and I think that's why what you guys have done with OM and like I said, I mentioned it to human and he completely agreed that he's like, this sounds fucking fantastic to be able to give people a way to access pretty advanced tech that what you've had to go into a lab to do probably only a decade ago. Oh yeah, and it would charge you an arm and a leg. It was like I was mentioning before when I was a resident at the VA, we did this within a pain clinic that I was working in. So we're usually using biofeedback and they were very forward-thinking, but the people who understood that world were the clinicians in the academics and so accessibility to something like that, well, that was only to veterans, but even in more of like a standard clinic, it would cost you so much money to be able to go to that because the clinician, it would cost them a lot of money to do it. And now we have accessibility to do it like readily, like we made obviously OM so that people could have it live anywhere in their environment and do it at any time, but also it serves another purpose. Do you want to explain what it is? Because I fucking fell in love with it, dude, and I think it's so cool, and thank you for sending me one. It's in kind of still in dark mode, people can pre-order the lamps or whatever, but it's still pretty stealth right now, which I thought was even cooler because it made me feel like I was getting access to the new Batman utility belt before it was actually fully up. I've been playing with mine and it replaced what I was using previously, but yeah, I guess explain kind of what it is that you've done because I think it's really cool. Yeah, so we are still in a bit of a dark mode because we won't be shipping out anything until the later half of this year, probably early Q3, so in August or so, but for now we are taking pre-orders at Om.Health, but the lamp in and of itself, so I like to think about this as we were trying to reduce as many barriers as we possibly can that caused friction for people not to not do it. So for instance, with all the other stuff that you used before, you had to have the device that you put on, whether it was a chest strap or an arm band, wrist wearable, open up the phone, make sure for the love of God, please Bluetooth connect because that was a problem. Yeah, to make sure all that. There was all these friction points and when something went awry, then it's going to lead to what? It's going to lead to friction and then attrition because you're like throw it in, so it's going to meet the graveyard of all the other wearables that you have in your shelf. And then the other component too is that what are you looking at the whole time you're doing biofeedback on a phone? Watching your phone. Watching your phone. How much do we need to really disconnect from our phone nowadays? Like we're so inundated. When I think about my phone, I don't associate that with something that is intended to help me down, regulate and relax. That's why I can't read. I was on a plane and I had the book that I wanted to read. Dan Jones just put me on to it. It's called "A Swimming Upon in the Rain." Fucking sick. So it teaches you how to read Russian literature. So there's a single page of a short story from Chekhov, or some other sort of legendary Russian writer, and then it explains how to do it. And I had downloaded it on my Kindle, and my Kindle couldn't connect to the Wi-Fi in the United Flight. And I was like, "I'll read it on my phone. I watch my housemate read on his phone all the time." Or oh. I'm not reading shit. I had no connection. There was no internet. And I still couldn't read on my phone. It's just not the environment for me. I guess we even talk about sort of digital environments now that, oh, sorry, you had the wrong device in front of you instead of the other device in front of you, which is the Kindle instead of the laptop instead of the phone. But we are just habituated, I am habituated into my behavior on these devices. And when I'm on that, I'm thinking about swiping up and moving stuff. Like I'm not in the mood, so I agree. And I did enjoy doing the resin stuff. But even that, the previous versions of it were just locking you into a frequency that had previously been tested. Correct. And this actually kind of to call back to a previous question that you had that I actually don't think we answered is that you had asked as resonance frequency change over time. Like do you need to go get retested with resonance frequency? And the answer is that initially it was thought that it was a pretty fixed characteristic. But now that we're actually like looking at more of the nuances of resonance frequency, we actually see that it can dynamically change across time and across context. So if you're breathing at said 4.5 breaths per minute, which you mentioned was your resonance rate, like it may have been at the time of the testing that you did it. But what if you left and the next day it's 4.897? Well, it doesn't sound like a big change, but what we know in the world of biofeedback. And this is the type of breathing that I really want to hone in on is that precision always beats effort and intention when it comes to breathing. Right. So if you were continuing to breathe a 4.5, but it's actually 4.8, even though you're not that far off because you're not doing it precisely, a lot of the gains aren't accruing no matter how hard you try, how frequently you do it. Yeah. And it's not to say that you wouldn't have gains. It's just, you're not optimizing the gain. You're not getting a gain as much of a robust or significant. How fragile is, if you get it on the nose of the right frequency, are we talking about a significant difference to being a little bit off? Is it a bit of a knife edge in terms of that? It depends on the person. I have seen some people that if I were to have them, let's say, breathe at 5 breaths per minute versus 5.2 breaths per minute, we could have a 50% difference, 100% difference in heart rate variability. So precision matters. Even with them breathing at 5.2, when their resonance rate was 5.0, they're still going to have net positive benefits. Slow pace breathing, regardless of whether or not you're measuring it, has net positive benefits. But do we want to optimize those gains for that longer term trait change? That is where precision is going to win. That's where OM comes in because we're not running you through. It's a bit annoying to have someone say, okay, well, I want to know what my resonance frequency is. Now, I've got to sit down and do this 12 to 15 minute tests where I do these two minute trials of breathing at different rates, and then we'll see what heart rate variability looks like. It's a bit of a pain to do. And then hope that it doesn't change over time. And then also, too, it's just like when someone wants to use a product that's intended to help as an intervention to calm their nervous system down, they just want to use it right away. So they just want to walk in. So a lot of people will just say, well, I'm just going to breathe a six breaths per minute because that's easy. Five seconds in, five seconds out, or four in, six out. Whereas what OM is doing is it is built with a immensely sophisticated algorithm, if I do say so. You wrote the fucking algorithm, don't, don't, don't, relate yourself on this fucking product. I know, I know, I know. Okay. That's really cool. So the way this works is obviously, and for people who are watching, there's a stone that lives on top. And once you pick up that stone, it's a really good hand feel. So I mean, it's nice and heavy. And it's also warm. Have you noticed that? It'll actually feel warm. And it's got a sensor in it, a PPG or a photo-plus-mography sensor in it, that when you hold it against your palm, immediately, it's starting to look at all of the dynamic characteristics of your nervous system changing in real time. So looking at heart rate, looking at heart rate variability, and it's starting to map it, and starting to look at kind of those unique characteristics. At the same time, the lamp will start to oscillate just in an up and down direction. So as the lamp goes up, that's you inhaling, so you're supposed to inhale with the timing of the lamp going up, and as the light goes down, you're exhaling. And during that time, within the first few breaths, because we're looking at the unique characteristics of how your nervous system is shifting dynamically at that time to that breathing pace, we start to filter that data through our algorithm and start to pace you at your residence rate. So you don't have to sit there and do a whole 12, 15-minute program, we're looking at it. And it's not just saying, oh, this is person's respiration rate or the residence frequency rate is 6 breaths per minute. So 5, 5, just throw it on 5, 5. It's saying, no, we see it 6 breaths per minute, but we want, because of the characteristics of how their nervous system is changing, their inhalation is going to be 4.276 seconds long, and their exhalation is going to be, you know, 5.834, I didn't do the math right there, but it's probably pretty close, actually. And we're going to take that all into consideration. What are we doing there? We're trying to maximize the output of those beautiful slow sinusoidal rhythms of your heart rate that we know are dynamically changing how your nervous system is responding, making it more efficient at any given time. And we're watching it across the session. And if there are these kind of small minute changes that your nervous system is telling us, we will adjust the rate within the session. Within the session. We'll adjust the ratio of the breathing. I've noticed that it does that if I sort of grab it, especially if I do a long session of 20 or 30 minutes, it will start speeding up and slowing down, the frequency of frequency will continue to change. It's pretty cool. So I guess one thing that a lot of people will be thinking is, I already do breath work in one form or another, and it makes me feel calm. Does that not suggest is feeling calm, not a proof of regulation in breath work, because I usually feel chilled and actually sometimes a little bit spacey when I do resonance breathing. But I don't always necessarily feel super calm. I don't maximize calm. I've done breath work sessions. It made me feel more calm in the moment. So is calm proof of regulation when we're talking about other breath work practices or this? Yeah. I never refer to HIV by a feedback or resonance breathing as a relaxation tool. And that might be people like scratching their head like, what, but I thought the intention was to help. In 90 minutes, I'm fucking becoming more calm. Relax. Yes. This is kind of going back to HIV as being a byproduct number, right? Resonance breathing, producing a sense of relaxation for most people, most sessions is the byproduct of aligning your nervous system. And so the intention isn't that I come in with resonance and with biofeedback, I never come in with the intention that, hey, this is my opportunity to relax. I come in with it with this, this is my opportunity to train. I am training. That is my gym right there. That is my nervous system gym today. I'm hitting it. I'm getting in the reps because we know that this has a wide systemic effect on how I respond now and how I'll respond later and how it's translative to how I experience the world after this. And so for me, when I do it, slowly, my breathing down inherently typically is going to make me produce a sense of calm. You may even feel sleepy. This is something that we use with absolute rest, we're going to end the Alpens company. We use this with everybody, everybody does the HIV biofeedback before bed because it can produce that huge level of vagal arousal or what we would just say is like vagal stimulation that break is being put on to the nervous system, which can help you wind down and actually can improve so many metrics as it relates to sleep. This is a well, well found and well studied thing that we can do. But the intention again isn't like, I'm going to experience relaxation. Maybe, maybe you will. Right now I'm working on timing, I'm working on precision, I'm working on training in that nervous system to align so that when I leave this controlled environment that I've trained on and I go out into the real world where I don't have this little thing, I want my nervous system to kick into high gear when shit hits the fan. If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going to help. Eight sleep just released their brand new pod five, which includes the world's first temperature regulating duvet, compare it, their smart mattress cover, which cools or warms each side of the bed. You have to 20 degrees and you've got a climate controlled cocoon built for deep uninterrupted rest. The new base even comes with a built-in speaker so you can fall asleep to white noise, nature sounds or a little ambient Taylor Swift, if that's your thing. And it's got upgraded biometric sensors that quietly run health checks every night spotting patterns like abnormal heartbeats, disrupted breathing or sudden changes in HRV, which is why it has been clinically proven to increase total sleep by up to one hour every night. Best of all, we've got a 30 day sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 nights. And if you don't like it, they will give you our money back, plus they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the pod five by going to the link in the description below, heading to 8sleep.com/modernwisdom using the code "modernwisdom", a checkout. That's e-i-g-t-sleep.com/modernwisdom, a modernwisdom, a checkout. Would it not be good for us to just always breathe at our resonance frequency? What would happen if I manage to do so many sessions that I would just walk about all day doing 4.5 in 7.9 out? I find myself doing it just instinctively. Actually, when I encounter, let's say I'm in traffic or whatever, I actually will notice because of my immense amount of training doing this, because I do practice what I preach, I use this every day for a very long time, and I have the app to prove it. You say that Brian Johnson's the current power user of this thing. Brian is killing it, I wish I could say it Chris Williamson, what's going to, Chris Williamson? I'm doing it. You're killing it. I'm doing okay. Brian's killing it. Can you say, how many hours a day he's doing? I don't know. I don't want to get in trouble. Okay. That's fucking pretty good. He's doing a lot. He's doing a lot. He's doing a lot of time on the lamp. Which doesn't surprise. Yeah, you get it. Well, when you think about the areas that he's covering at the moment, one of the things I haven't heard him talk about much is moving it across into the more nervous system and come psychological side of things, and it doesn't surprise me that he's managed to find an evidence-based, highly metric sort of driven solution for something that could be a bit, like a fucking esoteric go, which he watched, I mean, he did do still the cyber none livestreams. It did, which was pretty fun to watch actually. I didn't watch it. You should watch at least some highlight and click. I didn't shit. Okay, cool. I feel like it's an aspect of Brian Johnson's personality, where you're like, I didn't know that was in there. I've seen enough aspects of his personality to know what's in there. Brian's a sweetie. He's fantastic. He's a good friend. That's great. Okay, I have a question. Let's say that someone is under chronic stress, and that's caused them to have a dysregulated nervous system. Does that not suggest that because it was top down, that caused the issue, that they need to go top down to fix it, they should go CBT, act therapy, psychotherapy, cognitive reframing, you have been in a situation with work or your kid or your finances or whatever for three years, and it's just sent you haywire, and now you're trying to intervene. The issue was caused this way from top to bottom, but the intervention that's being suggested now is to go bottom to top. Can you talk about, because you said before, psychological stress is one of the biggest contributors to this, how do you come to think about the relationship between intervening with nervous system work directly with stuff like resonance breathing and what's happening psychologically? Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. The one thing to also question here, most of it is coming top down, but there are some actual theories of emotion that are actually looking more at bottom up. So there's James Lang theory of emotion that actually says that we encounter an incident, so let's say we encounter an event, an external event, and actually our physiology is the first thing to respond. We're built and ingrained with this unconscious scanning of the environment to determine threats that's really not driven by our cognition, but it's just really primal. It's the thing that when we see the snake that's lying there, maybe we haven't been taught to be afraid of the snake, but something inside of our physiology says, no, danger, don't go there. Then we receive that signal from our body up, so it's bottom up, and then now we're starting to make an agnative appraisal with that thing that we just experienced. Turn that into a modern example story for you. Sure. Sure. I can give you a clinical example or a performance example. Which one? Which one? Okay. Let's go both. See someone, for instance, who is experiencing, oh, yeah, please do a session, get it into someone. You're doing a long answer. I'm going to do this a little bit. All right. Clinical examples. Let's say someone who experienced some actual trauma. My background has worked historically with special operators in the DOD and also with veterans. For these individuals, they're encountering so many different types of external events that put them readily on high alert as they should be. They should readily be on high alert. The experience, all these things that they know should be associated with danger, so therefore engage this protective mechanism to fight off what they have, tune in, walk in. I had a veteran back in the day when I was working within the VA, and he had all these experiences within the war, so he was over in the Battle of Fallujah, the early times of us being over in the Middle East during the Iraq and Afghanistan war. He came back, and he was like, I know that my nervous system is you just got into a state of resonance. I do want to comment before going out with my story that the lamp is now blue, indicative that Chris Williamson during our communicating just now, or me, communicating, that one side had gotten to a state of resonance, and now that I'm bringing it to his intention and calling it out, he's exiting resonance. I get you out because I brought his engine to it. Anytime you go into blue there, you're in a state of physiological resonance. Your nervous system is responding and firing on all cylinders in the best way possible. This is great. It's like story time with nervous system training. You're telling me about this guy. Yeah. And we haven't gotten to the good meat of it, so exposure to all these things. So he comes into clinic, and he says, I've noticed that every single time I go out to drive, like I lock up the entire body, locks up. I can't think straight. I get tunnel vision, like all of these things are occurring kind of within my nervous system. He didn't point it that way because he didn't know to use the language nervous system, but he said that everything just feels really disruptive. It's gotten to the point now where I actually have a phobia of getting in the car and driving anywhere. I can't do it. So that's caused me to be socially isolated. I'm a hermit. I just kind of live by myself doing my own thing. The only time I come here is when I get a taxi because Uber wasn't a thing back then, my aging myself here, and he would go to the VA to receive help. Okay. So then when we started to unpack and explore what was going on here, basically what he would say is that he would walk out, and he would have, he wouldn't even actually be looking at a car, but he would know that he was kind of like moving towards a car. And all of a sudden, his physiology would just ramp up, heart rate would increase, everything would just kind of like become immensely excitable. And so yeah, okay, well, there's this association that he's making, but we don't know like what the association is, is why it's there. And so as we kind of backpubbled and unpacked a little bit of things because as you do in therapy, which I am a psychologist, so of course, like that's kind of part of what I do, is that we realized that he was making just these really broad associations with hitting 90s, kind of out when he would be in Humvees during his time over, and associating that with the car. But that wasn't something that was cognitively manifesting. It was really his physiology that would ramp up and send that signal directly to kind of to his brain. And then he would get into this tunnel vision, highly sympathetic mode, and not really kind of know what to do in that moment. So it would be like, well, I'll just avoid, I'll go inside, I won't do like anything, because that keeps me safe, and that becomes obviously a really vicious cycle. So his experiencing kind of like all this flood of changes within the physiology that's sending the signal to the brain, that this is a dangerous environment, this dangerous environment is now connected with previous experiences. So I experienced kind of all these nasty things that happened over in the Middle East. So now for I've created this vicious physiological cycle. And so this is where like, yes, we want to leverage something like top down cognitive processing or therapy with him, and that's important. But actually starting from the body up and helping him just learn how to regulate that physiological response was the best place to start, because trying to change the mind with the mind of her to keep him in talk a lot about this, and I really agree with you women on this. It says trying to change the mind with the mind is a bit like tug of war. It's very difficult. You can kind of get into these nasty impasses, and you're always butting heads, but changing the mind with the body tends to be a lot more efficient. And it is the thing that can bridge the gap and segue us into doing the top down processing. Because all the things that you mentioned before cognitive behavioral therapy act, all of these evidence-based psychotherapies are immensely valuable tools, like they are 100% needed and they're efficacious. But if we can use something like this to augment what we're doing there, and also allow us to open up from a nervous system perspective, so this is why I might get a tiny bit esoteric actually, which is not typically my thing. But if we can leverage a tool like this, let's say before a therapy session, to open up the nervous system, to receiving and saying, "Okay, I'm in an environment with my psychologist or my therapist. This is a very safe environment because I'm communicating this with my body, with my nervous system. This might be a really unique and amazing way to start really transitioning from just purely talk therapy and psychotherapeutics to now going more into using psychophysiology." Well, I think the fast, that was wonderful by the way, I got a four minute resonance. You did great. You did great. That's what I need my fucking breath coach to say. It makes a lot of sense to me, even though it sounds kind of counter-intuitive, you have a sense in the body that gets shot up to your brain. I am not safe. This is not good. For instance, let's say that you were in a relationship and something about the way that your partner showed up made you feel unsafe regularly. You don't really know what, what is it that they've done? Maybe they took a bit longer to text back. Maybe they didn't put a kiss at the end of the message. Maybe they seemed a little bit more distracted. Maybe they, something, something about them, the way that they show up, your conception of them makes you just feel a bit activated or agitated. Then you start to tell yourself stories about why I don't feel good. It's like, "Why don't you feel good?" I'm not really too sure. You have some sense that has hit you that's kind of like the relational equivalent of a snake, right? That's perhaps something patterned from your path. Mum also seemed to be a little bit distant and you had fears, threats of abandoning. You feel like you need to perform in order to win your partners love and that was just the same way that your grandma or your father or your schoolteachers or some story that you've told yourself, not even from childhood, you don't even need to go back to childhood. Some part of your worldview has a fissure in it and this relationship with your boss or your new coworker or the fucking bus driver, whoever it is, is getting to you in a manner that seems to sort of really pierce your programming. That is making you feel away, well, you're going to, the only place you can experience that is in your brain and you're, well, I'm now going to start to tell myself a story about why I feel this way and that, the first time that I heard that, it makes complete sense about how emotions do move in both directions. I can absolutely manifest myself by thinking about stuff, completely imaginary situation, and allow me to just come up with this potential catastrophe or good thing and it go top down. But I can also feel something in the body and it shoot up and tell myself, great example of this. I was working New Year's Eve eight years ago and I know this because my business partner text me about it over Christmas in Manchester and I was part way through the night and I was being so fucking catty with all of the staff, I was like, there's 20, 25, 18 to 23 year olds that are working for me in Manchester and I've driven down there and it's New Year's Eve and fuck, I'm working, I'm a club promoter, I've done it for 15 years, I didn't have a New Year's Eve 15 years, like fine, this is my job, this what I signed up for. I'm in a different city and we've sold out and we've made some good money and it's good, whatever, whatever. I was being so fucking short with everyone and I got a text from my business partner and he said, I'm locked in the disabled toilet at Riverside, which was the venue that we used to run in Newcastle. I'm like, I'm 150 miles away, have you lost the key? Someone else locked you in there, is there a fucking shooting going, like what is this? Turned out that he'd got norovirus, he'd got a 24 hour stomach bug, brutal and we'd been to his sons first birthday party in between Christmas and New Year. Turned out that that was a super spreader event for fucking norovirus. I'd been super short with all of the staff that had been on-site with me and it turned out that I also had norovirus. I was about to an hour and a half later feel nausea and feel like I wanted to spend the rest of the day in the bathroom, but my behavior had been, I'm being short, why am I so irritable, I'm feeling this sort of a way. If that doesn't say that you can have a sensation, that I literally didn't have an explanation for until I started to do the fucking Sherlock Holmes cookboard thing of piecing together. We went to the kids birthday and he's in the toilet and oh my god, this means I'm going to be in, and I'm 150 miles away from home and I have cream leather seats in my fucking BMW. This is going to be an, sure enough, I had told myself a story about what it meant. Maybe it's because this thing wasn't organized with DJ Booth or he didn't bring his microphone or I found out that the fucking DJ that night wasn't going to do the countdown because nobody had prepped him that he needed to use the mic and he was being a purist and I was like, I guess I'm going to have to fucking count down from 10 at my own event while I'm trying to hotwire the pirate techniques using two nine volt battery. It was a fucking nightmare, but I'd told myself all of these stories about this little adventure that I'd been on that had nothing to do with how I was feeling and it was exclusively because I was going to ship my pants in two hours time and get that sense, it completely tracks. It's a method of self preservation. I'm trying to put together a piece of your story hell kind of like you creating that is a bit of self preservation, but maybe there's something that I can link there, but we're doing it all as a method to make sure that we continue our survival and pass on our gene pool. Ooh. Do you know Lassitude? But Lassitude is the sort of emotion of being unwell, big sick, like physically sick. And I did this episode with Diana Fleischmann and she was telling me about Lassitude and some of the interesting elements of Lassitude are you want to be around friends and family more, you don't want to try new foods, you prefer bland foods, if you've got the flu or something, bread and toast, like butter on toast and cups of tea and my Britishness is showing it. So sure. Wanting to be looked after by mum or partner or whatever, well, why? Because if I try some new food that might have pathogens in, if I try and make friends with someone, they might not be able to look after me. So you have these behaviors that are impacted by your physiological state, by your medical state, your sort of current health system is leaking out of you into your behavior. And that's a longer version, a more protracted version of what I had and the less protracted version of what your special operator had, which is I have pattern matched this thing with another felt sense. And now I've begun to tell myself a story, Paul Conte told me this thing about how people that have travel anxiety, especially for being in a serious travel road accident, you can retrospectively go back and tell yourself, oh, I never liked driving, actually, never, I never enjoyed it. You could have loved driving, but the narrative gets smooth now. You're talking about cognitive dissonance. 100%. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So yeah, this sort of, I don't even know what you'd call it, this bi-directional nature of emotions, the moving both bottom up and top down. And it makes complete sense to me as well to think, well, if you can get your nervous system into a state where it feels really good and calm and regulated, although maybe not super calm, but at least resonant, you would be a little bit more open to maybe talking about things that are difficult. Yeah. Can you imagine a world? And again, obviously, I'm very biased in my statement that I'm about to make because I have something to make from from own in this in this process, but I can imagine a world where every single psychotherapeutic session starts and ends with some resonance breathing or biofeedback. And again, let's take home out of, out of even the discussion doesn't have to be home, but just starting with resonance breathing as a way to open up to what we, what we're about to encounter in terms of our discussion, because for many psychotherapeutic discussions, they're very difficult processing to get through. And then maybe the back end is saying, okay, well, now we're releasing you back out into the world. We've gotten our 50 minute session. Safe again. Safe again. Use time to assimilate all that information and carry on. It makes me think about kind of like micro-dosing ketamine or MDMA, ketamine assisted psychotherapy, or MDMA assisted psychotherapy. This is resonance assisted psychotherapy. Yeah. That's right. And what you're trying to do is just give a little bit of a safety cue. And I suppose that's in large part what MDMA is trying to do, right? Opening the hard up. It's you can talk about this thing without reliving it in the same sort of scary dangerous way. You're being comforted by someone. Okay. For resonance breathing, what is a good starting point that's realistic to get good progress? How much? How often? How long? What's the protocol? Yeah. If you want state change, if you're like, hey, I need something right now. Just a couple minutes. I mean, even a minute to three minutes will get you a really good solid effect. What we, one of the things that we know is that resonance breathing in and of itself, resonance efficacy is so immensely high that we can safely say that every time you do it, you have a net positive benefit from in terms of a nervous system perspective. It's a nice little gentle hug. We know that when we get to around that 10 minute mark and as much as 10 to 20 minutes, that's actually kind of like the sweet spot for starting to really entrain the nervous system. You had mentioned ago, you mentioned a little bit ago, what if we just walked around unconsciously, breathing that our resonance rate, and it's like in theory, I love that idea. However, what I will say, and that hasn't been tested for obvious reasons, but what I will say is that the research does demonstrate that going above about 20 minutes of resonance breathing, like the return on investment, like it starts to, it starts to drop. It's not, there's no deleterious or detrimental effect, but you're not gaining any more significant appreciable gain, like from doing longer than 20 minutes. I always tell people the sweet spot is per day, 10 to 20 minutes, and that is not 10 to 20 minutes compounded over the day. It's doing sessions, like the compounding, like if I did two, sorry, five two minute sessions equals 10 minutes, you're not going to receive as nearly as much of the longitudinal benefits as you will with a singular 10 minute session. We do have research because the nervous system doesn't start to really entrain in a single session and make those larger scale, scale, barrel reflex changes until about minute eight to 12 minute eight to 12 is when we start to see them making those more robust changes. It'll change. The nervous system will make significant changes before then, but the adaptations don't occur until that point in time. So that isn't said to say, "Hey, if I get an om or I get to do some other breathing practice that I should never do anything less than 10 minutes, not at all. I do it all the time." Like, in between meetings, I'll do three or five minutes. Is that having necessarily the compounding effect, not as much as the 10 minute sessions or the 15 or the 20 minute sessions? So I tell people, like, if you really want to get the effects, and this is coming more from the literature and biofeedback, 10 minutes done four to six times a week. And if you do that, and as little as four weeks, but probably more around eight to 10 weeks, you're going to actually see significant train changes. Now that can result in, I look at my whoop, and my baseline heart rate variability is increased. I'm not using that as like my marker or my goalposts, kind of like my source of truth. But we see that quite often in the research and the literature, we do see that baseline heart rate variability for people that practice and that type of protocol can actually see pretty vast improvements. What I'm actually looking at are a couple of things. First, I'm looking to say, subjectively, do I feel more resilient? I think that goes, that goes mist, man, like in the day of, again, biometric hypervigilance where we're all like so data driven and using it as our decision making, we're becoming increasingly poor at checking in subjectively. How do I feel? I wake up in the morning, yeah, my wearable says that I'm in the red and I feel, and it says I'm a 29 out of 100, but how do I actually feel? Like bypassing that is a huge mistake. So we know in the literature that people that do this type of protocol, one of the main things that they see is they see better emotional regulation. Okay, so maybe my fuse isn't as short as it once was. Maybe I have a little bit more lenience like in this business call or working with Deborah down the hall. She doesn't piss me off as easily or maybe she does piss me off, but I don't fly off the cuff with her. They see better sleep. We actually see improvements in sleep metrics and markers. We see more resilience to kind of other things like recovery. We actually see that we improve things like physiological recovery. So for instance, I know a lot of people at a lot of the pro athletes that I work with. Every single time that they are working out or they'll do like a training session, they're downregulating their nervous system with OM for about 10 minutes or so, like post that session. That's the protocol. So let's say this is someone who is a high performer, creator of some kind. Maybe they give presentations at work, maybe they're a salesperson, maybe they're trying to learn something. How would you stack resonance breathing with skill acquisition, practice, game time? Are you doing it before? It feels like I'm not convinced that it's great for everything. If I'm an NFL player, I probably just want to be listening to Creed before I go out. I don't necessarily want to be hyped, I don't know if I want to be doing this. It depends on their level of autonomic dysregulation. So for instance, I had an NHL player that I worked with and he had an amazing player, great player. He told me about this guy, but just could not control his game nerves. Significantly. He would get practiced. In practice, he was like the generational talent that he can do on the ice. Amazing. But when you get out on the ice, one bad touch, one bad whatever, and the brain goes, the nervous system goes, heart rate, fluctuates, can't sleep the next night, like perseverating on things. And so for that individual, I'm going to structure a protocol that looks quite different for him than I am going to be, I would say someone who's like, man, I need to get amped up because I have worked with multiple MLB players, like pitchers especially, who the day that they're pitching, some of them are like, I'm just not feeling it. There's like this lack of energy, like I need to like amp myself up. I'm not going to have them probably do as much resonance breathing before they go out. But they might do it afterward in order to bring themselves back down. Exactly. On a bunch of, you know, whatever nicotine and whatever else, kind of dreams and whatever else. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Let's add in now. Let's say that somebody wanted to, by the end of 2026, I want to make as many great improvements to my nervous system and also my HIV, I'm just gaming the HIV game, right? I want to piss all over everyone else in my loop group. What would you structure as a pretty easily compliant, broad spectrum protocol that includes the cardio respiratory work? What would that look like? Something that's relatively easy to stick to, but will have, it'll capture most of the gains, including the resonance breathing and then also looking at any other contributing factors. What would you do? The first thing that you can do is send a text message to all those in your loop group and say, hey, guys, let's stop comparing our HIV. You should actually have a beer before you go to bed on a night time. I feel like the government's been talking about it. Exactly. Yeah. There's a huge proponents of at least like two to three beers, right before you go to sleep. So the, the first thing that I would say, and again, I'm trying to think about what are the best levers that you can pull to kill the most birds with one stone. And literally, it would probably be just two things that come to mind now because I don't want to add, I could, I could create a protocol for you where I add, I have created protocols for you where I can add layers of complexity where there's a tons of things. But I think for the everyday individual, if you focused on two things, which are both modifiable factors, like we talked about, nervous system regulation earlier, I think that you're going to get the most bang for your buck. I think the first one is exercise. I think that enhancing cardio respiratory fitness and getting more on a path to increase things like VO2 max. And again, like, you just go listen to any of the stuff where he talks about, you know, improving, you know, the base, base of the pyramid, you know, through zone two training and high intensity training as well on the top. Like, just listen to all this stuff, I mean, you're improving cardio respiratory fitness, which is improving cardiovascular output. And therefore lowering resting heart rate, and you're going to improve HRB that way. If we're just thinking about improving HRB, is that then equate to improving things like parasympathetic breaking or vagal breaking or vagal tone, potentially, we do have some research to suggest that exercise in and of itself is a great way to actually exercise the vagal break. So that way, again, we're kind of killing two birds with one stone. We should be exercising and improving cardio respiratory fitness, no matter what. And the second component, again, this is my bias, 100% coming out, is that we need to have dedicated time and practice where we are in a controlled environment and we're down regulating our nervous system. So for many people, meditation is really helpful for them, and I don't want to poo poo on meditation. I think it's a great practice. I actually think that HRB biofeedback that we've been talking about is an amazing thing to combine with mindfulness and meditation. I actually think they work very well in tandem with one another. But the thing about meditation is that creating a practice that's 15, 30 minutes a day, that's maybe not as much structured. It's just really hard to create good behavioral habits and routines around that. So for most people, I would say, then that's where I would turn to, and again, bias coming out, something like ohm, where it's like we're actually spending dedicated time in a controlled environment to train our nervous system four times a week at 10 minutes per day, even, as little as 10 minutes. If you want to do more than that, do more than that. Like for instance, I aim for 15 minutes of resonance a day, not 15 minutes of practice, 15 minutes of my time in blue. So when you turned it blue during our discussion a minute ago, I want 15 minutes where I'm holding myself in that. Now that doesn't have to be 15 sustained minutes. I'm not sure if I've ever done 15 minutes of sustained resonance, but 15 minutes cumulative, and I normally do 10 minute sessions or other small sessions. So again, if we had to kind of come back, that's me like maximizing output of the vaguest nerve. If we're just saying, well, what's the minimal dose that somebody can do to get started? I think four times a week, 10 minutes a day, so that's 40 minutes that you have to devote to the nervous system gym every week will get you a lot of the benefit and certainly provide a good foundation. When you've looked at the evidence around resonance breathing, what does it suggest about what people should be doing with their minds? Oh, good question. Have you ever noticed, like when you're using it, have you ever noticed that when your mind starts to go and wander, what happens? Yeah. I've been in the blue so much, and then all of a sudden, like I will catch my mind to go, here's the great news. Kind of mindfulness. 100%. And you have to be mentally attuned to what's going on. Otherwise, it's like the nervous system notes. It's like you're feeding it information. The mind's going. Then it says, well, we need to, again, sympathetic nervous system, we need to mobilize energy. So we can process all that thinking, and so then they're four. It's pulled you out of, it's pulled you out, right? It's pulled you out. So there's a direct connection there. That's why I say that meditation and mindfulness is immensely important to include as a layer of what you're doing with biofeedback. Otherwise, I think you're going to miss out on some of the other potential mental attunement benefits. Well, I think one of the risks that you guys are going to have as this becomes bigger, and there will be, based on how good I think this product is, I think there's going to be like a million copycats within the space of a couple of years. One of the things I've noticed, because you don't need to look at your phone. Again, for the people that are just listening, it's like a stone. You hold the stone in your hand and you breathe in time with the stone and the stone can just vibrate. Well, what it means is you don't need to look at anything because you've linked the lamp in with the Wi-Fi. So you never actually have to open your phone again. So I have it next to my bed, and it means that when I'm watching a movie, I'll be, I watch Die Hard because it's the greatest Christmas movie of all time. Grab the stone and I'm there for 30 minutes, 40 minutes. But I'm, you know, me deep in Die Hard, and I care about Bruce Willis and Alan Rickman. So I'm not mentally with my breath work and I do think that that's going to be something that people are probably going to get into doing because it sounds great. Oh my God, I can train my Vegas now while I'm watching a movie. Like that is fantastic, but how many of the gains are you losing by not focusing where you're supposed to be? But then also, maybe, if you were to look at the literature for this, I would love someone to do a study to say, well, this is a more real world applicable situation, which is that your nervous system is doing one thing while your mind is doing another. So can we chew walk and chew walk and to go at the same time? Can we chew gum and walk at the same time? Are we able to allow a front brain to be focused on that while our nervous system is trying to regulate from this thing at the side? I mean, that's a really interesting, great research study that could be done there. Well, what I will say, though, and I go back to the statement that I made before, is that I will take a precision over effort and intention any day. It doesn't mean that intention, an effort with precision, don't yield the greatest benefits, but precision is key here because we know that the nervous system, like your barrel reflex response and your respiratory sinus arrhythmia, so the characteristics that are contributing mostly to HRV, they actually don't care, they don't give a shit about your intention. They don't care. As long as you're breathing within rhythm, they're doing its work. They're aligning. Now, if you want to maximize that benefit, that's what we put in. We put them all together, and that's where we can start to layer mindfulness. So again, just to make sure I don't get misquoted here, mindfulness and meditation matter, like they're really important for what we do. I think it's great to layer on them, but is it necessary or are we required to utilize that in order to have some appreciable nervous system benefit with through HRV biofeedback? The answer is no. So, to recap, you would say some zone two work, 150 minutes a week, maybe 100 to 150 minutes. I think it's here set to, because it says around 120 to 150 minutes a week. A week, and if you can get some Norwegian fall by fall, maybe one session a week, something like that of top-end work to get the zone five stuff in, and then between four and six sessions of between 10 and 20 minutes of resonance breathing that is done in a focused manner, that together should be from a modifiable factor. This is stopped drinking so much fucking salt. Elements fantastic, but you can't have 10 a day. You should be having two or three a day at most. But volume is a huge contributor or influencer to heart rate variability, so you don't want to be dehydrated, but you also don't want to over-hydrate. That will build you about as good in terms of HRV gain. The thing that we haven't talked about is how this impact asleep. When you were mentioning all that, one thing that was coming to my mind is that I was thinking, yes, as long as sleep. So, talk to me about, because you work with Andy Galpin's company, Absleep Rest, which is fucking awesome, we've sleep into this big pattern that we've created so far. We've got this massive tapestry of insights about how the nervous system works and what HRV is, and what resonance frequency does, and how the barrel reflects. And what about sleep, and how does that guy work in with all of this? Sleep is the canary in the coal mine. When we start to have significant disruptions in sleep, sleep efficiency, the overall quality of our sleep, when all of those things are happening, it's a signal. It's a signal that the nervous system is experiencing a significant amount of dysregulation and so, if I had to think about a pyramid of health and wellness interventions, or not even interventions, but a pyramid of health and wellness factors or variables that people should focus on, if they want to have the greatest longevity and overall sense of health and wellness, the bottom of the base of that pyramid without a doubt, I don't think there's a close second is sleep, because we know that sleep, its intention is reparation. It is repairing the nervous system. We receive insults all throughout the day, right? So whether it's psychological insults or physiological insults, there's insults that we are incurring at all times, and our nervous system is doing the best it can. It's like 24 by 7 security. It's trying to attend to everything, but it gets beat up, and especially as we experience more chronic stressors day in, day out, weekend, week out, month after, month after year, decade after decade, now we've got all this compounding stress that's kind of living kind of within the nervous system. Its thermostat is really stiff and stuck in a direction that we don't want to have, and so therefore it starts to impact things like our sleep and our ability to actually sustain longer, deeper sleep. And so we can leverage, this is why heart re variability is typically given to us on wearables while we're asleep, and that's because when we get really good data of a process that is intended to repair our nervous system, HRB is telling us, well, is sleep actually helping us to repair the nervous system? Or is there some gap there? So without focusing on sleep, it's like you can do all the breathing you want, and it's great. It's going to help, and it can actually help improve sleep, tons of literature on resonance breathing and biofeedback, and how it can improve sleep. But if you aren't addressing sleep issues at its core, which can be a wide variety of factors, nervous system dysregulation, probably being the foundation of that, then like all the other things that you're doing, maybe aren't going to have nearly as much of a net positive impact. So we have to start with sleep. So is sleep where trait level autonomic regulation sort of shows up the most? Yes. It does. It can show up in your baseline day-to-day behavior. So in the ability, let's say for instance, with someone who's kind of an immensely flexible autonomic nervous system, that they have high barrow reflex gain, we can actually see that their blood pressure regulation mechanism is really fine-tuned and can work really quickly, really efficiently and really smoothly, depending on what they experience. However, in sleep, we're taking out all the external variables of like physiological and psychological insults or stress. We're taking all of that out. Pretty blank canvas. Yep. Blank canvas. And we're saying, okay, here's true baseline. Here's the process where like we are working to repair everything. You can't fake regulation during sleep. You cannot, because you can't manipulate your breathing during sleep, even though I did watch a video, breath work guy, who says that he claims that he can get people down to breathing at five breaths per minute while they're sleeping, which is physiologically impossible. If you wake up in your whoop or your aura says that your respiration rate was five breaths per minute, please go immediately to the ER or something for all. Wow. Yeah. But what would people who work on their fitness and their resonance breathing see in sleep? All of the things being equal over the course of 12 months? If they're working on it, what I love, so this is again to shamelessly plug absolute rest in the Galpins team, they're using a lot more advanced ways of looking at what's happening in the nervous system throughout the night as opposed to like a lot of consumer base wearables. But that's when you're going from like FDA cleared medical device, we're getting like tons of granularity to like, okay, sampling rates a lot lower, we've got to conserve battery. We're just giving you kind of information that we think could be useful to hopefully drive behavior. So what we saw, I kind of want to explain a gold standard because I think that this is the best way to view it. So like at absolute rest, when you're wearing the overnight ring, it's a ring called the sleep imagery, which again, FDA cleared medical device. It's actually looking at the fine, finite, quite granular high fidelity changes that are occurring in your nervous system through an algorithm called CPC algorithm. Just looking at cardiopulmonary coupling. So how coupled or incongruence is your breathing within your rest, your breathing in heart rate when you're at rest? So at baseline, they should be highly coupled. You should be creating a lot of what I referred to earlier as high frequency power. So that's what we should see on our chart, so we'd have like these really tight, big blue mountains that we'd want to see that are occurring across the night. When someone is having really poor problems with sleep, and this can be due to sleep disorder breathing, so let's just say they got sleep apnea, or they just have an immensely dysregulated nervous system, really cannot bounce back from stress, you've got other problems related just to autonomic flexibility. We see that that high frequency coupling is really low, like so it looks like they're not getting hardly any restorative sleep. And when they're not getting restorative sleep, they start to experience kind of like this sympathetic burst at night. What we call fragmentation, and you can't pick up fragmentation on like a consumer-based wearable. This is why you got to go to the high fidelity stuff that they have at absolute rest. Which is also why these rings have one night of battery. Yeah, yeah. There's a pretty good sampling what a hundred hurts or something. Yeah. Oh, it's a, I think the sampling rate's a thousand hurts, so it's really high. As opposed to even the best consumer wearables are taking little chunks throughout. Small bits, so small of what we call epics, or just small bits of times, yeah. And so, go imagine this, if we see that someone's having a lot of fragmentation at night. So the sympathetic nervous system's starting to kick into high gear, you know, heart rate is bouncing up. We're starting to see kind of like this pattern that we don't want to see when we're at rest. Well, what does that cause us to do? Fragmentation causes us not to get into the deepest stages of like into the rest of sleep. All the real restorative stages, it keeps us in very light sleep, and there was a lot to do, kicks us out of sleep as well, causes a lot of wakefulness. So we see people sleep efficiency, which we want to be above 85%, start to drop below 85%, we see the night is completely fragmented. So what do we do? Well, at absolute rest, what we would do is we'd say, okay, we want to put you on a biofeedback protocol where about 30 minutes before bed, we're going to do 10 to 15 minutes of resonance breathing. And within that kind of time frame, the whole idea is that we're down regulating the nervous system acutely to try to ease ourself into sleep, to get that good, deep restorative sleep. And that's what we want to see. So we do that. We see that, oh yeah, first night they did it, they did increase a little bit more high-frequency power. It might be only at the beginning of the night, and the fragmentation kind of kicked into high gear. But we see it start to improve, and then they do it week after week after week. And what's so interesting is that almost every client for absolute rest says that their favorite intervention or the one that they feel like is truly moving the needle aside from like top to your level coaching is heart rate variability biofeedback because it is something that they can see. Like you can see it's not, it's not a guessing game anymore, right? It's like, I see that my nervous system is actually made changes, not just am I getting a little bit more of that parasympathetic sleep at the beginning of the night, but it's starting to traverse the entire night, trying to see it fluctuate and not fluctuate, but really go across the night. And let's wake up. What are the limits of HIV's usefulness? When people want to use HRV as like a catch all metric for health, wellness and longevity, I think that that is immensely poor way to use it because it can't be used that way. I think I mentioned at the beginning of our podcast that it's not a vanity metric. It's not something you compare to other people, and we've kind of gotten past that point. But I think the limit of it is when you start to use it and you say, I'm going to say every single day I'm going to wake up, and I'm going to look at that number, and I'm going to use that number to now drive decision making in regards to what I do that day in my behavior. And the problem that will ultimately arise from that is that again, you're not taking context into consideration whatsoever, and so now you're making decisions just kind of based off of that, and you're not actually bringing in your own subjective experience and subjective feel. So that's one. The other limitation I think of HRV is that the way it is being used now is that people are just using a singular metric, and they're not actually looking at it in terms of the compilation of metrics that HRV actually is. And so they misuse it because they say, well, I'm looking at this one number, and I mean, they're comparing it to something I shouldn't be comparing it as opposed to relative to me, but I'm not looking at all kind of like the minute high fidelity, really nuanced picture of what this can provide, which is why, for instance, if I'm working with a pro athlete of mine, yeah, we're going to take their whoop data or their or a data. I'm going to examine that and give them some feedback on that, but I'm also going to have them do like a morning reading. So they wake up, and the first thing they do in the morning is actually do a two to five minute baseline reading, not a resonance reading. Why am I doing that? Because I'm driving 12 to 15 metrics that are giving me a much more microscopic view of their nervous system as opposed to that singular one. But I'm not proposing that everybody should like get someone like me to do that or even have the need to do that. It's just understand that there are limitations. HRV is not nearly as robust of a metric for telling you something about your physiology as something like VO2 max, like VO2 max I put up there as like a metric of like, okay, this is kind of like a true metric of like overall, like wellness and overall like fitness. HRV is not like that. It just doesn't operate like that, and it's not a normative based metric either. It's like we technically do have norms because we've done so many studies to where we know where people typically fall, but we also know that because of the other influencers, genetics, sex, that if you don't fall within that normative range, it actually doesn't tell us anything about your overall level of health and wellness. It's like if you know that, hey, for males, age 35 to 40, the mean RMSSD value is 56 milliseconds, and you know, the standard deviation is 10, and my HRV is 25, so therefore I know I fall multiple standard deviations outside of the mean. And so therefore I must be unhealthy, it's not the case. We don't have enough evidence to suggest that. So it does require a little bit of nuance, and I think that it's best used when you have someone, and we can buy, it's like me who can inform you as to what it means, but HRV is best used this way. It's best used in real time to as a guide, as a signaling window for training. Just talking cool, dude, I feel like this is the front Vanguard of some revolutions, some new sort of health revolution thing, and it's cool, and it's evidence-based, and I'm glad that there's people like you who have done the research and spent a few thousand hours in clinic working on this stuff. It's really, really cool. So where should people go? They're going to want to check out more information about everything. Yeah, sure thing. So as you've mentioned before, OM is in dark mode, however we are open for pre-order, and so I mean, again, thanks for the shout out that you gave with you, remember, because people actually got introduced to the world. Not just it's also, it's not just about, oh, it was about residence breathing, and I think that that being brought into kind of the limelight is huge, and so I appreciate that. But OM.Health, going over there, pre-order will be shipping out in August, so I just want to manage people's expectations that like you can't order it and get it now. You just happen to be a friend of the family here, so you got one. Check us out there, love to get some feedback from people and get residence breathing out there to the world. Okay. Appreciate you, man. Absolutely. I get asked all the time for book suggestions. People want to get into reading fiction or nonfiction or real-life stories, and that's why I made a list of 100 of the most interesting and impactful books that I've ever read. These are the most life-changing reads that I've ever found in this description about why I like them and links to go and buy them, and it's completely free, and you can get it right now by going to chriswillx.com/books that's chriswillx.com/books.