#1045 - Joe Hudson - How to Take Control of Your Emotions

Joe Hudson, welcome to the show. Thanks Chris, good to see you man. Feels different to speak to you now. Yeah, I bet it feels different. The audience will know that I spent a long week with you at your intensive retreat. Yeah. So yeah, to now sit down back in my domain after having spent a week desperately trying to survive in yours feels so feel somewhat different. Yeah, it was great to have you there. It was a very strange, very meaningful experience, especially given that it's completely sober. You know, there's a lot of talk of how important it is to how popular it is, at least to do the psychedelic trip down to Costa Rica or the ayahuasca DMT thing. You can get pretty far without having to add anything in except for a morning coffee, if you've got the right container and practices. Yeah, the, I don't know if you've ever seen the data on the work, but we change negative self-talk by a standard deviation across all the participants and all and the neuroses drops by a little less than a standard deviation. So yeah, cool stuff can happen. How have it, who's doing the study? There's a researcher who worked at Harvard. She no longer does. And then we had somebody at Columbia, who's doing it. And we just now have another person during another research project on us. So it doesn't surprise me quantum physics from Oxford, because the new person who's at least talking to us about we haven't figured out what we're doing yet. Oh, one of the questions that came up after we spent a week together was, is it hard to live in the real world with an open heart? Yeah, there's one of the first questions that I thought of. It's hard not to, is my experience. I don't know anything that, I don't know anything that feels better with a closed heart. So we have this thing that our brain does. It tells us that, oh, I'm going to get hurt or I'm going to get in trouble or I'm going to get taken advantage of if I close my heart, or if I don't close my heart, if I don't protect myself. But there's not a tremendous amount of evidence for that. Like, Gandhi didn't get taken advantage of, or Martin Luther King didn't get taken advantage of, a really open hearted mother doesn't particularly get taken advantage of. Some might, some might not, but they're not really correlated. And so my experience is that if you close your heart down, it hurts. It's just painful. And we talk about it a lot in our society is like, if you don't forgive, then you're punishing yourself. That would be like the typical way to say it. But my experience is just any time that my heart starts closing down it hurts. What do we do? We're scared of love. I mean, that's one of the things that I think you must have noticed in the groundbreakers is that on some level, you could say almost everybody there had been entrained in love in some way that was not useful. And so now they're scared of it. So love came with guilt. And therefore love isn't safe or love came with getting smothered or love came with criticism or obligation obligation. And therefore love is scary, not for what it, but at the same time, we definitely want love. We're born wanting love. Like little kids are like, give me attention. Give me love. That's what they want. And so we have this desire for it. But then when we get it, it comes with this something that's toxic or not good or and then we're oh, shoot, we're scared of love. And so into some degree, that's all of it. It's like like I can see almost all humans kind of doing this with love. You know, the most pronounced one is jealousy. You know, like if I'm in a relationship and a person with me is it and I'm jealous on one level, I'm like, I want you, I want you, I want you on one level, I'm like, I'm going to like criticize you and and make you feel wrong and bad and I'm pushing you away. And this is what I see almost everybody's doing with love in their life with themselves as well. I mean, even in loving themselves, they're doing that. So we have that patent. I think is it hard to live in the real world with an open heart? Yeah. came to me as a question because it was pretty easy to do it within the container of this very gentle, very understanding, very Oh, so by check it out, you just said it's like gentle and understanding. But right before that, you said intense, like hard core, like it would like your your the way you said it wasn't like everyone wasn't going to be like, yeah, I want to go do that. That sounds like fun. It was like, no, that shit's intense. So how do you how do you put those two things together? Well, the dauntingness, I think of fully being seen is to do with it being alien. Yeah, it's to do with it being unfamiliar. Yeah. It's to do with the level of transparency and openness that isn't you're not used to. And it's it must be like being a one of a better example, like a mistreated puppy or something. And this puppy has been taught that every time somebody raises a hand at it, it should cower away. So it's going to get hit. But this time the hand gets raised and it gets a pat on the head. And it needs to learn over time, it cowers less and less and less. And then it actually learns to love the hand that comes down to ward it. Yes. But it's exactly what it is. That's so cool. Deep patterning. Yeah. That response takes time. So that's the daunting side, the daunting and intense side. The reason that I said the real world was there was a story. The first day that we came out, me and one of the other guys went for a massage. You said bodywork would be a really good idea. This beautiful, peaceful, very calm reception waiting area of the time massage parlour and a sleepy village in Sonoma County was too intense that we had to leave and go outside. Like this is and you know, there's like a little USB plugged in waterfall and like plink plunk music playing in the background. Like we we're going to we're going to go stand in the courtyard because we're like I kind of I don't know what the fuck is. What did you call it? Not spirit sick. Not dope sick. Like something hangover spirit hangover. Oh, vulnerability hangover. Maybe I use that word. I feel it was something else sick as well. Anyway, we go outside. What it made me realize is that there's one level of difficulty, which is within a safe container, learning that the hand is going to come and pat you not not beat you. Yeah. The next one is now going out into a world filled with hands. Yes. And those are two different skills. Oh, it's the same skill, but a very different kind of skill set. Does this make sense? Yeah, totally makes sense to me. Yeah, into that. Yeah. So there's so much there. So if I look at like a pattern that I'm holding in my life, I have three ways that I hold that pattern in my life. One of the ways is that I attract it. So let's say I have a pattern of feeling highly criticized. One of the ways that I'm going to attract it is I'm going to be attracted to and want critical women in my life or critical bosses in my life. So I'm going to be I'm just going to notice, wow, all my girlfriends criticize me all the time, just like my mom did or some version of, but I'm attracted to it. One way is that I manipulate people into doing it. Right. So some way in which somebody's not criticizing me, I am going to like fish for the criticism or I'm going to do something that I know is going to make them criticize me or I'm going to be a little needy about something that's going to make them push me away and criticize it. You know, and then the last one is I'm going to prove somebody's criticizing me even when I'm not being criticized. Right. So you might say, oh, hey, you're not parked straight because you don't, but for me, that means I parked all fucked up and you criticized. I've never been a good pucker. Exactly. Like I'm going to make meaning out of that. I call that mapping. So you're manipulating people to do it. You're attracting it and you are proving it because you're looking at the cases where it's true. You're not looking at the cases that aren't true. And so we go out into the world. And so you go into for a week long with us and all of a sudden the patterns don't work anymore. And then you go out into the world. And but you're used to doing a particular thing in the world, which is mapping this pattern. And so all of a sudden, you're like, wait, how do I, how do I interact with the world? And so we've had people come out, like you said, like, I have a hard time sitting in this massage parlour, we've had people come out and literally call us from a grocery store and say, I don't, I don't know what to buy. Whole foods was the tip of the spear of difficulties for people. Yeah, exactly. And so, so it's just like, oh, I'm not in my pattern. So how do I operate anymore? It's a little bit like shaking the extra sketch, I think. Yeah. And it's sort of, it's more blank. One of the other things, I think, I notice it, like, I'm thinking about your audience for a minute. And I'm thinking, like, they might have no idea what we're talking about because there's no, there's not a lot of experience of, oh, I, I saw the world one way in a week later, I see the world a different way. It's like, you have to assume that to understand the conversation that we're having that all of a sudden, I thought that I had to be protected, but I realize that life is a lot better if I'm not protected. Now, I have to learn how to do that in the real world. That's it. That's it. That's it. Right that. And yeah, I, it's so funny when you hear people talk about a religious experience or a transformational experience or a near death experience or you know, whatever it is that they've done. And from the outside, because you don't have that frame of reference, it's confusing, it's easy to mark. He's like, what the fuck is this person talking about? I have no frame or context or whatever. It's a bit of me that because I'm inside of that, I'm taking for granted. I'm like, I might just sound so mental. And this is, you know, relatively mild, I think, in the world of like, I saw a thing and this thing and whatever. It's like, I realized that I didn't need to be as stiff and spiky as I used to and that the sensitivity that is always inside of me is something that I don't need to necessarily hide and actually might make my world and other people's worlds a better place. And the very thing I wanted, which was for people to like me might occur more, the more that I show that, the less. So I wanted to show you this. So I just like total tingles in my whole body, because I'm like, that's why I love my work, is to hear that exact thing. Thanks for sharing that. Okay, so I'm, I have this episode that I recorded in New York a couple of weeks ago, a guy called John Ballion. It's one of the most legendary producers of our era. He's done billions of streams, just in Bieber, Ed Sheeran. He's a solo artist himself. Okay. He released an album called Father Figure. It's about him becoming a dad. It's about his reflections on his relationship with his dad, who is a super father, this sort of very strange, almost role model. You know, like people talk about, I have a super successful father and I need to be as powerful as him. This was different. This was, I had a really amazing dad. And I have to live up to being like as a tuned and supportive. And this sort of other type of intimidation, I suppose. Oh, wow. And I was in the shower this morning. I played this song in the car yesterday, but I didn't listen to the lyrics. It's a song that just passed me by when I was doing my prep for the episode. Yeah. And I knew I wanted to talk about living with an open heart. Yeah. And in this song, so I'm in the shower this morning. I cried at this, I cried at this song every single time I heard it. So we'll see if it happens again now. Okay. But I wanted you to, I'm going to spin the lyrics around and we'll play the song. It's also going to get popped on YouTube, but I don't give a fuck because it's sufficiently important that I think it matters. So. I'm scared to meet you, cause then I might know you. And once I know you, I might fall in love. And once I'm in love, then my heart is wide open. For you, the walkings, right the bomb blow it up. So I love anything, anything, anything you know. Why love, anything you know. If the higher I fly, is the further I fall. Then why love, anything you know. Stressed and thrown out of my thing that could happen. I can move mountains with the worry I've done. So I caught my father and he started laughing. Think it's bad now until you have a song. Oh yeah. So why love anything, anything, anything you know. Give me your thoughts on that. Well, yeah, my thoughts are that somehow or another, the heartbreak is bad. Like that, that's the assumption in the song that somehow the heartbreak is bad, but like heartbreak is something I look forward to. It's a bold claim. It is until you realize that every time your heart breaks open, it increases your capacity to love. Do people not get their hearts broken so badly that they close off? Does that know what trauma is? People get their hearts broken so badly that they, yes, that happens, but I think that's more because they're avoiding the pain, not because they're hearts broken. Like we're wired, there's like some pretty good studies about this. Like we're wired to find awakening for lack of a better word or enlightenment or peace through going into the pain. So if you look at what we did through ground, you know, in the weeklong, we're constantly going into the thing that we think that we're scared of, that is the pain, the thing that we've been avoiding, and the more you go into it, the better you feel, the more open you are, the less weight you're carrying around with you, the less worry you have, the less anxiety, the less anger. That's what we're wired for. And if you look at the studies on people who go into their depression instead of avoiding it and and and make through their far less likely to ever get depressed again. And so we're just, we're designed for that. Like that's how we, that's how human beings operate. If you go into the pain, it's the same as if you're working out. Like to me, the question is like, why workout? Why workout? Why workout? Why workout at all? It hurts when I workout? Why workout at all? Like that's what I'm hearing when I see that thing. It makes no sense. Once you realize that that that pain is the like most direct path to your freedom when it's accepted and loved, when it's avoided, it's absolute hell. When it's resisted, it's absolute hell. So I get it. Like I get why people are like, I don't want to feel that and then they can avoid it. And then it just sits in the background and rips you apart. So that that's how I think about it. And it's a, by the way, for that, that man, it's the same thing for parenting. Like the thing about parenting that's really cool for me is like, it's like a deep tissue massage. Parenting is like a deep tissue massage. If you resist, you're fucked. It teaches you, you do not have control. The thing that you think you are is not what you are. Your sense of identity is going to be crushed. That's like, that's a good news about parenting. That's the thing. That's the thing I'm so incredibly grateful for as my kids now are 16 and 20. I'm just like, oh, I got crushed. That's the amazing thing. All that stuff that I thought I was, that was, that was actually just this cause of pain, long-term pain, just got annihilated so that I could find out what I truly am. The thing that couldn't be annihilated. Before we continue, you have probably heard experts like Dr. Ronda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega-3s. They support brain function. They reduce inflammation. 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Can you talk about the distinction between the two approaches that they're going into versus they're going away from or the resisting versus? Yeah. So, when I hit my depression, I think it was like in around 35 or something like that. And the way I think about depression is on the intellectual level, it's just extreme negative self-talk. And on an emotional level, it's repression of anger and sadness, typically, a lot of it anger. And then there's a lack of connection that's happening in like with interpersonal connection that happens like you don't feel that depth of connection, that occurs. And on a nervous system level, you're just constantly under attack. And so eventually your adrenal glands give up. And the attack is coming from within. So, when that happens for a prolonged period of time, that's the way I see depression. So, then you're there. And when you're there, you have some symptoms. And the symptoms are this is never going to go away. I'm horrible. There's just all this doom and gloom and why even try and life has no meaning. And that's the symptoms of the depression. And so, what some people do is they're like, how do I avoid myself? And the other way to do it is to say, well, what's actually really going on here? Who am I really? What really makes me depressed? What are those thoughts really? Are they true? Where do they come from? What do they sound like? It's like a deep wondering, curiosity. And so, to some degree, that depression is just great saying that I've heard recently, which is the best gift we can give to our kids is making them feel like they're safe to be themselves. The depression is all the places you weren't safe to be yourself, that you are currently judging. So, what is it to lean in and understand those things? Those things that you never got to express, that you never got to explore, that you never got to go into that wasn't safe to be. Those emotions, those thoughts, and then see what it's like to actually repair it yourself in that way. That's what's going, that's what I mean by going into it. Would you say to somebody who thinks, okay, I believe you? I am convinced that this is the route to go into, I'm sick of abandoning myself, but I'm scared. Yeah. That fear, which I think is much of what we were dealing with in the week that we spent together, which is you're scared of doing this thing and you will find out that if you do it on the other side of it is nothing to fear, nothing, maybe bliss, maybe connection, maybe wonder, or maybe actually just, oh, there was nothing there. But even now having had the weak intent, 12 hours a day, it's not as if that lesson has been permanently locked into my brain, that fear is continuing every single time to come up. I'm like, fuck, I'm going to play this song, it's going to make me tear up and I'm like, what people are going to say in the internet, I'm going to look silly in this, going to be blah, blah, and like, right, but you're doing it. That fear, what would you say to somebody who is currently paralyzed by that fear of, I say, of course you're scared. It's okay. I'm right here with you. The thing about somebody who's depressed in that way is they're constantly being told that they're not okay the way they are. Their friends are coming to them and saying, you should do this and this and this and you should go. Now you could listen to what I'm saying, and say, God damn it. Why don't I just stop avoiding myself? I'm fucking out. But what's not happening is no one's just saying you're cool the way you are. I got you. This is it. I don't need you to be different. There's a really cool story and I think I shared it at the retreat, but I can't remember. But there is this quaker guy who had this really strong sense of community went into a depression and everybody came over to his house because he had this community and they were just telling him what he should do to get out of the depression and none of it helped because he said they were just agreeing with the voice in my head that there was something wrong with me. But one guy came in number Tuesday at noon and washed his feet and he was just giving this expression of like, I will go against the voice in your head. I will go against what you think and I will show you that you're worthy just as you are. And that's the journey. The journey is going from I have to do something to be worthy and lovable to I am worthy and lovable. And when that journey happens, when you the weird part is is that everything that you tell yourself that you aren't worthy and lovable for changes when you think you're worthy and lovable. That's the weird part or at least 95% of it does. Because you're doing all that stuff that makes you unworthy because you are trying to avoid that feeling in yourself in that moment. Interesting. I think the first episode we did was how to see the matrix, look at the things that you don't want to have in your life, realize that all of your patents are creating that exact thing to occur. The thing that you're afraid of is the thing that you're manifesting, basically literally making happen. And increasingly, when I look at anybody, any literally anybody, especially people that are proficient or specialized in a particular way or extra ordinary or hard charging in one particular way. And what they are is almost always the inversion of what they fear they're not. So like, look at how beautiful this person is. They feel so ugly on the inside. Like how successful this person is. They feel like such a failure. Look at how well known and well renowned this person is so terrified of being abandoned. Look at how competent this person is. They feel useless. You know, it is just what you are not for everybody, but for a lot of people. What you are is this huge big compensatory mechanism for the lack that you feel on the inside. This person's really clever. Or it's because they feel stupid. Yeah. Yeah. And apparently almost a necessary step, maybe not to that degree, but almost a necessary step. Right. On some level, the mind starts off with once you do this, it'll be once I make enough money, once I'm powerful enough, once enough people love me, once I'm famous enough, once I'm and then you get there and there's no there there. And so for a lot of people, that step is necessary just so that they can actually do the real work. This was this idea, unteachable lessons, I mentioned it to you before. Yeah. Yeah. Famine fix yourself worth. Money won't make you happy. You don't love that hot girl. She's just good looking and difficult to get. Like you should see a parents more. You should spend more time in a hammock. You will regret working so much. You can cut toxic people out of your life. Like all of these insights are cliche and people roll their eyes at how trite they are, but that doesn't explain why anybody who's recently realized them proclaims them with sort of the renewed grandiose ceremony of someone who's gone through religious revelation. Like if it was so obvious, why does everybody proclaim it? So, you know, ardently and if unless there is some weird conspiracy to pull the ladder up after yourself, maybe you could make the claim of that around like fame and money, but like around dating the wrong person or around seeing your parents more or something. It just doesn't make sense. So I'm kind of fascinated by this question of can you, how much can you speedrun this, how much can you leap frog going through the, I learned the hard lessons, the hard way. Like I disregarded the lessons of previous generations, but actually I'm going to take it this time as opposed to believing you can dance through the mind field without kicking tripwire. Yeah, that's a great, I do think there are lessons that you just have to learn yourself. Like you have to go through it for sure. I think about like to some degree than when I think about what we're doing for that for the week longer, really any of our courses that are all equally intense. What we're doing is we're showing what true north is. We're like, oh, you've tasted it now. You have the taste. So you know it's possible and we have total faith that you will slowly get there or quickly get there. But once you know it, you're like, oh, I don't want to live a different way. I once I see it, I don't want to live a different way. So to some degree, that's the experience that we're doing in those, like we're giving that experience so people can know that it's possible for them. But for that, because you can only learn a lesson by actually experiencing it, at the same time, there is kind of, there is a weird hack which is if you feel deeply loved and accepted, it like you don't have so many minds in the mind field. Whether you're loving yourself or you happen to be one of those very lucky people with a great father who showed that unconditional love to the person or you happened to have a friend who gives you unconditional love. That can speedrun a whole bunch of stuff because you see, oh, that's actually what I'm looking for. The other thing I'm not really looking for. I suppose if you've had a belongingness desert, if you've been sort of bereft of that. Correct. I've most people. You have no idea what North looks like. Correct. Yeah. From my experience, I had a meditation retreat. My wife required us to do a 10 day silent retreat to get married. That was part of her requirement. She just didn't want to break from me. She did it with me, so probably also. I'm with him. I have a good story about that. I'm going to divert and then I'll come back. My daughter wanted to do a meditation retreat and I kind of tried to tell her not to. She was like 9/10 at the time or something like that. But she was really cool. Really wanted to three days. So we had a friend who had a retreat center. They agreed. We went and did it and we finished the whole thing and I was like, so what was your favorite part of the retreat? And she said, she said, she said it was the sad. No, it was the fact that you couldn't tell me what to do for three days. Unreal. Yes, let's go. But in that retreat, that silent retreat, I had this eight seconds of awareness of who I was, like the truth of who I was. It took me another 15 years to be living that way on a daily basis, to understand that as a way of being rather than an eight-second experience. But it was like my north star and it pulled me through. One of the things that would have made that a lot more efficient is to have experienced unconditional love. But I had nothing around me that was that. Tara hadn't learned it. I hadn't learned it. And so we just had to learn it step by step. But that does a lot because when you have unconditional love for yourself, there's no compulsion to get wealthy. You might get wealthy, but there's no compulsion to get wealthier to get famous for it. Because I will dot, dot, dot. There are all serigates for the thing that we actually want. Just talking about stories about parents and kids, John on the episode that we recorded. It was saying he refused to tour. He doesn't tour anymore because he just wants to be with his kids. You know, he lives on Long Island and the biggest recording artist in the world come to his house and like sit in his studio and he just loves it. But he did a couple of shows. Two shows sold out back to back. And it was at the stadium that's a 15-minute drive from where his house is. And you know, you just totally optimised for minimum time away. How can I play the largest show possible with the least amount of time away from my family? It's only rehearsed for like three days. One of the shows, his son was backstage and they'd set up this little play pen area for him. And you know, John is finally performing after a big hiatus and he gets to bring his son who is of an age where he can start to work out what the fuck's going on. He must be like five or something like that maybe. And he finishes up and you know, he's sort of doing it for his family. He's even done it in the manner that is most apt to facilitate his family. So he's really tried to warp himself to make this as like family friendly as possible. He finishes up and he gets off stage and he says to his son and he's like, "What did he think? What did he think?" His son goes, "I didn't like it." And he's like, "That's why I love kids." Why didn't you? Why didn't you like it? And he's like, "Well, the first song was okay, but then you just kept singing." And he kept singing, he kept singing, and I just thought, "When's Dad going to be done singing so he can come play with me?" And I was like, "So cool. When's Dad going to be done singing so he can come play with me?" Your son, you've just played 20,000, 25,000 people sold out around the corner from your house, the hometown, city, all of the thing, brought it back home, constructed it, brought the van, brought the kids, do you play pen out back? Do the thing." Some was just like, "Dad, when you're going to be done, so he can come back and play with me." You don't give a fuck, 25,000 people couldn't care less, or Castro, but billions of straight, no, go fuck yourself. Like, I've got a power engine here, and he's waiting for you. Like, "Oh, that's unconditional. I want you. I want you." Don't care about any of this, I want you. Sick. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I mean, that's, yeah. And if you feel that from somebody, if you, and you let it in, which is also a trick to let that unconditional love in, a lot of the things that we think we want, so I want to be wealthy. Well, what makes you? What's the need behind being wealthy? Well, it's security. Well, what's the need behind security so that I can feel safe? What's the need behind feeling safe? And if you start just going down all those wants, eventually, you'll start seeing it's like, "Oh, I'm looking for a deep connection with myself and others." That's what we're looking for. That we're looking for some sense of meaning, some sense of deep connection from self and others. And neurologically speaking, we also know that to be true. We're looking for that sense of happiness and that sense of meaning. That comes from that feeling of deep acceptance and love and connection. 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Plus, you can get a free sample pack of their favorite flavors with your first purchase. If I go into the link in the description below, or heading to drink lmnt.com/modernwisdom, there's no code. I usually care about the box more than that. Drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. Can you tell that story about one of your daughters was crying in the bathroom when you asked if she was pissed off? Oh yeah, yeah. This is this fucking blew my head off and I think I really want to tell it. Yeah, so it's my youngest daughter. She's in the bathroom. She's crying. I go in to hang out with her. And at some point, I'm like, I don't think you're sad. I think you're pissed. As she goes, I am. I was like, well, how often when you're sad, are you really pissed? She's like about half the time. She's like nine. And I was like, well, why? Why don't you get, why don't you just be pissed? And she said, because as me, the older daughter, if I get pissed, she just hits me, but if I get sad, she does what I wanted to do. Bro, I don't think I've ever heard a better explanation of why people trans mute anger into sadness. They don't get mad. They get sad. They turn this displeasure outward to displeasure inward because sadness is prosocial and it causes people to come and take care of you whereas anger is anti-social and it causes people to run away. Yeah. Fucking brilliant. Which is strange because I think, like, there's a, I'm sure a lot of your audience they are or they deal with somebody who is who is angry. It has like a temper on them. And one of the things that I've noticed is that when somebody has that temper and then somebody gets scared of the anger, then the anger usually grows. Because what's happening there is the person who's angry is like, I'm out of control. I don't feel safe. I feel helpless and I don't want to feel helpless. And so I'm getting angry and then they're getting abandoned. Like, oh, and then they get even more angry because they feel even more helpless. I think there's a difference as well. I was telling about this conversation I had with Charlie Hooper and he's talking about people that move from victimhood status to action agency status to emotionally entune status. And it looks like you're actually going backward because previously you were also kind of ruled by your emotions but not through transcending and including and alchemizing them but through them just being the winds of the day that sort of blew you around without you being able to step into them. And I think maybe sort of raw unaware anger is not too dissimilar to that. You know, somebody who's raging and breaking things and unable to sort of hold themselves together. I'm interested in that arc between like instinctual anger and intuitive anger, perhaps maybe that's the wrong terminology. Yeah. So the way I think about it is like we have these emotions, like it's called like a tube of an energy running through us and we'll call this one anger. And then if you kind of kink it one way, it's nice dress or if you kink it another way, it's I'm going to be late and I'm going to be passive aggressive. You can't get another way, it's yelling, it's screaming. But in any of the cases, there's shame around the anger. Instead of what the anger actually it is when it starts moving fluidly in your system is it's a cause for action and a cause for boundaries. So when I notice that I'm angry now, I'm like, oh, I'm angry. I'm like, oh, there's a boundary that needs to be drawn. I know there's a boundary that needs to be drawn somewhere. There's some way in which I am there's something I care about that I'm not standing for and I need to stand for it. Yeah, let's talk about boundaries. Pop, psychology, favorite word of the world, people weaponizing it from their couples counseling to that you've crossed about this is me holding a boundary. No, it's not to you being an asshole. What do good bad boundaries look like? How do slippery, malleable, pliable boundaries turn into anger? Give me the equation there. Yeah, so boundaries, the two easy ones to say for boundaries is the first one is that you're not ever telling somebody else what they're supposed to do. That's a power struggle. It's not a boundary. It's you telling them what you're going to do. Okay. Can you give me an example of the former and the latter? Yeah. I'm going to draw what I would say is a power struggle boundary, not a real boundary would be every time you get angry, I'm going to punch you in the face or every time you get angry, you need to leave the house. Every time you get angry, you need to stop yelling. That's that whereas the other one is every time you get angry, I'm going to leave the house. Every time you get angry, I'm going to ask you to stop yelling at me and if you don't, I'm going to leave the house and I'm going to come back in 20 minutes and then we can continue the conversation unless you yell at me again and then I'm going to do the same thing. One is this is what I'm going to do. I'm the one that gets to choose for me. I'm not choosing for you. That would be one really good thing about a boundary. If you're doing anything where you're telling somebody else what they have to do, it's not a boundary. It's a power struggle and it just shows that you're in fear and shame. You're basically passing fear and shame back and forth in the relationship. The second one is, and this is the one that will bend people's minds when they try it, is whatever the boundary is, it makes it that I'm more capable of loving you no matter what your response. It opens my heart to you. A great boundary opens my heart to you because it's very, very hard for us to love anything that we think oppresses us. If I draw a boundary that opens my heart, it means that I no longer see you as the oppressor. I have the capacity to do what I need to do here and take care of myself, which means that you can't oppress me. That's how I teach how to draw boundaries. What happens when you don't enforce the boundaries? Well, there's nothing doing force because it's just what you're doing. What happens if you don't do what your boundary would suggest that you're supposed to do or don't say that that's going to happen? What happens when they're too pliable? That's a cool thing about boundary. What happens is if somebody is scared that they're not going to maintain their boundary, what typically they'll do is either do it really, really harsh. They'll be like, "I'm going to leave you every single time. You're yelling me. I'm out of the door." They'll do something like that, which unfortunately makes it harder for the person who's hearing the boundary to hear the boundary and more of a resistance going on. So you're saying, "Oh, I'm scared. I'm going to flake and therefore I have to be really, really strong about this." So that's typically what's happening. The reason that people are usually scared or freezing. I'm going to put a hoodie on. Keep going. Whereas people are. If you really look at what the fear is underneath it, the fear is that I'm going to lose connection. The reason that I'm not going to draw the boundary is because I think that you won't love me if I hold the boundary. And so that's usually why people are scared of that they don't are consistent with the boundary. The other thing that happens is that the boundary will change over time naturally if you're doing them right because once you realize that you're not oppressed, you don't need the same kind of boundaries. So if I think about my father who was an alcoholic, my first boundary with him was like, "I'm not going to be around you if you are drinking." And then it was, "I'm not going to be around you if you're drunk or hungover." And then it was, "Oh, I'm not going to be around you if you treat me like this or this whether you're drunk or hungover or not." And I can be around you if you're drunk or hungover, but if you treat me like this, I'm out. So once you start learning that, "Oh, I actually am the one I get to control my own destiny. I get to control whether I'm cared for. I get to control if I'm loving myself." Then all of a sudden the boundaries become less necessary or they become softer, more open-hearted. How much of this is a fear of being seen, being sort of truly, "This is me. This is what I want. This is my desire as a legitimate." Yeah, I think that some of it is maybe more accurately put as a shame of this is who I am, this is what I want and this is how I actually want to live my life. I'm not allowed to do that. It's a weird thing that our mind will do and it will be like, "No, I actually need to bend to get this kind of love. I need to be different. I need to not want that much attention. I need to not be angry. I need to not. " We have this whole list of things that we have to do. It's a process of realizing that all of those things that are actually okay and we can be loved for them as well. Why are people more comfortable with silently suffering than being seen sometimes? It's shame. It's shame. It's like the general thought process that there's something wrong with you. That's the thing and vulnerability is the cure for that. Whether you think about it as 12 step programs where the whole thing is, I'm going to say all the things that I'm ashamed about and I'm going to be able to be loved in that shame and I'm going to see that other people are going through that and I've done that and I can see that they're good, lovely people who made a mistake and so I can also be a good, lovely person who made a mistake. That's the antidote for the shame. The biggest issue is that when people keep all that to themselves, there's no real air for the shame to decompose. It never becomes the compost for a better life. It just becomes this rancid thing. That's interesting. Very deep. That's a cool analogy. You've got this line. The strongest smoke signals that you're avoiding in emotion. Number one, looping thoughts and less overthinking. Number two, binary decisions, feeling stuck between two options. Number three, harsh judgments of others. Yeah. Most inner work fails because it's done from the same self rejection it's trying to heal. I feel like those are linked together. Yeah. The fear one's interesting because I said binary thinking there that you think of things black or white, buy the car, don't buy the car, do the podcast, don't do the podcast, leave the girl, stay with the girl. That's an immediate, that's fear unexpressed. That's what that is. When we're scared, we go into binary thinking. It's why fear is really not a great ally for good problem solving or getting the most out of a situation because you start limiting your perspective to binary and so that one's particular binary is particularly fear the binary thinking one on judgment. That's really, there's no time that we're judging somebody when what's actually happening is there's a motion we don't want to feel. Could you give an example? Yeah. I am judging. Somebody for hawking element on the thing. Right at least not. We love element. Not at all. Yeah. What's actually happening there is if I sit with it, I'm like, oh, if I couldn't feel that judgment, that's the question you ask. If I couldn't feel that judgment, what would I have to feel? And what I would might feel is jealousy that you have a great sponsor who's aligned with you or I might feel like I might have this idea that anytime I'm trying to sell myself for make money I'm bad. It's since I don't allow it in myself. I can't allow it in you. So I'm feeling that owned because of course we're all selling ourselves on some level. So of course I feel the shame of selling myself. So maybe it's the shame, but there's always something underneath the judgment that we're not feeling. And if you ask yourself that question, it's like an immediate resolve of the question again. Yeah, it's if I couldn't feel that judgment, what would I have to feel? So you can literally just go into any judgment that you have and just find it like and usually they're best for like mom's dads or girlfriends, but you can say like a boyfriends, you can say, oh, I judge my girlfriend for this and then if I couldn't feel that judgment, what would I have to feel? And it just you start seeing what the parts of yourself that you're not allowing. What about a practical way to break the loop of rumination, looping thoughts, endless overthinking? Express emotions. No, express them at people. Don't go yelling at people or being sad at somebody or being scared at somebody. So typically what humans do, which is why we think that emotions are so bad. It's like I'm angry, so I'm going to get angry at you or I'm scared, so I'm going to like be really scared at you so that you take on my fear. And so nobody wants that, but we've mistaken the emotion for the aggression in the emotion, which is like you're doing it at somebody instead of just having the emotion. But if you're overthinking, I've seen this, you've seen this, like we do this in that week long that you participated in and we do it in our in our other courses too, the longer ones. Somebody has emotional expression and immediate clarity on the other side of it. I know what I need to do. So that rumination is just I'm trying, and the way to think about it intellectually is this, I am trying to, I'm trying to solve a problem. The problem I'm trying to solve is I don't want to feel a certain way. So I should I take element or should I not take element as a sponsor. So I'm in binary thinking I'm in fear because of whatever and I'm looping on it over and over and over again. I don't want to feel like I'm wrong for having taken it and I don't want to feel like I don't have enough money or poverty if I don't take it. I have these two feelings that I'm trying to avoid. And so if you are good with any of the feelings because you feel them, you're like, oh, well, I'm going to feel this, I'm going to feel that I'm going to feel it all. Then all of a sudden, the decision is really easy to make. A quick aside, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your energy, your focus and your performance, but most people have no idea where there's our or what to do if something's off, which is why I partnered with function because I wanted a smarter, more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, there are in lab tests that monitor over a hundred biomarkers and their team of expert physicians analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. Seeing your testosterone levels and tons of other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. And unfortunately, getting a blood work drawn and analyzed like this usually costs thousands, but with function, it's just $499 and you can get an additional $100 off, bring it down to $399. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save 100 bucks by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. You have a decisions course. Yeah, I haven't done it. I've already heard you talk about you can't make a decision without emotions. If you some patient going through some weird like quasi lobotomy thing, it takes you half an hour to choose which crayon to write with or what sandwich you want, etc. I think people are usually pretty familiar with those sorts of experiments. What is a little deeper about the relationship between making good decisions or making any decision and your relationship to yourself, voice in the head, your emotions? Yeah. So the emotion side of it is the easiest to think about. So we are making decisions to feel a certain way. How do I feel good? How do I feel like a winner? How do I not feel rejected? How do I? This is what makes us make a decision. We want to feel right or like not wrong, whatever is safe. And so that's what we're making decisions for. And if you think about it in a very minute way, why am I doom scrolling? Why did I decide to doom scroll? I decided because I don't want to feel whatever angst that I'm having. This is going to help me not feel that. Loneliness, boredom, boredom, whatever it is. So we're making our decisions to feel into not feel certain ways. If you start to learn to fall in love with all the emotions, which basically means not resistant, which basically means accept all the parts of yourself that weren't accepted as a kid so that you can actually be yourself, then decisions are just automatic. They're just, they're simple because this is my truth. I want to do this. I'm okay if it means that I have to mourn something. It's okay if people get upset at me. It's okay. And this is what creates like hyper-success in people too, which is interesting. If you look at the, if you look at the evidence, people who are okay being disagreeable or disagreeable on the ocean scale, meaning that they're not trying to make sure everybody's happy. They're okay if people are upset with them are far more likely to be successful in a, in a hyper-successful way than people who need everybody around them to be happy. They're also going to get paid more money. There's a whole bunch of like, they'll ask for the raise. They'll go up to the person at the meeting exactly. They'll do all the things because they're okay with somebody. And so you can either do that by being like a stone-coated asshole or you can do it by, and that works, no doubt, or you can do it by actually falling in love with all of your emotions and then you're like, oh, cool. Like, this is my truth and I'm okay with whatever emotional consequences there is to it. And you can't do that without an open heart. So you have a closed heart. You have a closed heart. You're trying not to feel. Open heart basically just means I'm feeling everything. That's what it means. Yeah, everybody has a recency bias. I guess it's strange because my recency bias, the order of things that I've learned on the show is not always the order of the way that they're published. Fucking Christopher Nolan's tenet and I'm like, you know, looping back on something. But I keep thinking about this Charlie conversation I had and he talks about congruence. It's a beautiful idea about congruence. Yeah. You look at the person that's the victim. There's sort of headheart and lines are kind of aligned even if they're miserable and at the mercy of the world. Yeah. Because they're doing the thing that they feel. It's rough, you know, and uncrafted and unrefined, but it's happening. Then you move into action and you're like, well, headheart and lines as well, you would look at like a trump at hate around this and you'd think, say what you want about them, they're fucking fully incongruence. Like, there is no doubt I am doing the thing. I'm the best, the best ever, like, you know, like fucking hardest guy in the plot, whatever it is, like they're incongruence. But then when you start to move into the open heart thing, the valley of despair, total white belts, like speaking to the fucking, you know, teacher here. But as far as I can see, one of the pains that people feel when making that move into living with an open heart is the incongruence starts to come back in. They are uncertain about the stuff that they used to do. And it's like, I used to get results when I just was the asshole, when I was disagreeable without an open heart or as disagreeable, how do you say, like from from disposition, not from curation or not from awareness, perhaps, yeah, like unconsciously competent as opposed to consciously competent. Yeah. But to go through that, you go through consciously incompetent first because you're like, oh God, I used to have these patterns and these ways of operating. And now I need to work out how to like integrate, transcend and include all of this stuff. Yeah. To get back to the place that I was. And it's like, yeah, but it's not the same as having never left, like to go on this big fuck off journey. This is the story of Paulo Quaylor's the alchemist, right? Yeah. Like the golds in the backyard. But like, you got to go on the fuck off journey to come back around and land at the same place. But that lack of congruence is where people go, oh, this is obviously wrong. Like there's obviously something wrong because previously I was getting results. Now I'm not even sure if I'm doing the right thing. And I've lost the fucking results, at least in part, in this little valley bit in the middle before you get back to it's started to slot back together. And I've got something appropriate and competence again. Yeah, I think that there's there's a couple things that are missing from that story. The first thing that I think is missing from the story is whatever you were getting wasn't good enough beer. You wouldn't fucking be on the journey. So, so yeah, you were getting results, but the results weren't what you wanted. Or you wouldn't that there be no impetus to to go on the journey. There's something missing. And so, yeah, maybe you're not getting results like you used to get. But the results you used to get were one the results you wanted weren't the results you wanted. So, so that I think that's one part that I think is missing the journey. The other thing that I don't really see it as you become less capable. It's not my experience. It sometimes happens. It sometimes doesn't. But the way I see it is that you no longer can deal with the lack of congruity that's there. Meaning there, there's some sort of congruence that happens where the Andrew Tates of the world they are they they're it's like there's a deep authenticity. Like there just is a deep authenticity. You might not like it. You might not want it. But there's like this deep authenticity. But there's not I wouldn't I wouldn't call it congruence. I wouldn't call it a deep alignment with because the there's still this big war inside of themselves. Like you're what you're looking at their war. So, to some degree, it's like yeah, they can get things done in the world. But what's the journey is I'm getting something done in the world, but I still feel this war inside of myself. How do I how do I get things done in the world and not be at war with myself? That's the question. And what happens on that journey is at some point, you're so sensitive that you know the war is going on in yourself. Like you've gotten to the point where you're like I get it. This there's something going on that that sucks and I don't want it, which is what is the beginning of the journey. So I think the words I would use, but I get Charlie's words and I love Charlie is that that I would call that there's a there's an authenticity, but there's not like a that deep alignment. There's still war there's still war with themselves. Yeah, they're still trying to prove something. I think they're still trying like you're the most powerful man in the world and you still need x y and z or you're the the media celebrity, but you still need actually is still something you're trying to prove. And so that's what drops. The thing that it makes me think about is someone somebody who goes from that authenticity to true congruence where the heart actually starts to align with the actions and yeah, and sort of the desires. Being exposed to some or being seen by somebody who doesn't have that level of awareness. I like having to dance around the words a little bit because I don't it to sound like a value judgment for people who like don't feel things so very deeply as if there's some sort of amount of worth that comes along with that, but they're just art. There's certain people who are going to question things more, feel things more, be myself aware, self reflective, room native, do the do the hyper vigilant, successive thing, and did be like pay attention to what's going on internally and externally a little bit more. Yeah, and I think one of the challenges as a avatar for that type of person is you are seen by people for whom that is not going to be their future, that is not going to be their path and they're just locked in in authenticity at action, action and results. And like the emotions piece is not going to play a huge role as huge of a role perhaps in their future. It's playing a huge role. It's just they're not going to be aware. That might be a better way to put it and you trying to have that conversation as somebody who's trying to take that step with somebody who isn't now or maybe ever results in you looking kind of silly in some ways. It takes a kind of bravery I think to avoid the social judgment of somebody who sees you as not evolving into your emotions but devolving back out of them into like oh my god you're just being driven around by your emotions like how irrational supposed to oh how beautiful you're diving into them and that there's already enough self-doubt and uncertainty and fear and shame around like you know like I'm starting to feel like I just teared up on the playing the song like how silly. The I'm interested of how people navigate and I think this is what I said about living in the world with an open heart is some of this different level communication thing and you're speaking in not only different dialects but totally different languages with people yeah and that can it can be easy to be marked to feel silly how do you how do you think about navigating that because it would be lovely to just have a perfect beautiful supportive container or your own amount of self-belief so much that the container no longer matters but you're going to you're going to interact with that like you know alpha Chad or alpha boss bitch lady or we might guy at work around the water cooler is that fucking gay that dude like whatever yeah how do you think about navigating that spikiness of the world with the sensitivity open heart truth boundary like all of that stuff yeah so there's a couple ways I think about the first the first way I think about it is imagine you are I'm gonna get in trouble for this but you're an ISIS terrorist and you have a whole bunch of ISIS terrorist friends they gone it's fucking hasbollah now right as well yeah hasbollah terrorists or whatever you're with a whole bunch of terrorist friends and one day you're like oh I realize I probably shouldn't be blowing up innocent people well as it turns out and then you and then you're asking me what do I do where and all my friends are like no you should blow up people innocent people it's like yeah that that like to some degree what it is is that there's some people who judge you and who think you're dumb for working out there's some people who judge you think you're dumb for needing as much of attention on a podcast some people think you're dumb for being on a reality television show some people think you're dumb for all right you're right yeah yeah but no point take it so the problem is actually bringing someone who really knows you yeah fine fine yeah um or think you're dumb for like teaching the emotional stuff like advertising about blah blah exactly so so there's always going to be some people who do that and so the question is how do you handle that in all the places that it's already happening and what makes this particular place being emotional the sensitive place because I see you do it and everybody do it on 20 other things but but then there's this one thing that it's like hard to do it on and it's usually an indication indication that that's where you're judging yourself if you're not judging yourself then they say that's like emotional blah blah like you're just a pansy and the response is yeah yeah I'm emotional and I love myself yeah that's okay yeah yeah it's like like there's a there's this great term I heard recently called vagal authority are you familiar with this term vagal authority authority so oh that's sick yeah already yeah so it's it's basically I my nervous system the calmness of my nervous system is going to have authority in the room so in Japan the police are taught this and they're taught never to raise their voice a way that we'd learn it in the states is paramedics never run to the body they always walk to the body okay because they don't want to amp up the they don't want the other person to feel like scared and then it amps our adrenal system so it's like this vagal authority when somebody says that to you and you maintain vagal authority it's over and you see this with like little kids bullying each other there's this great YouTube video and hopefully we can I can send you the link about how to stop like if you're being bullied as a kid how to stop it and the whole thing is just maintaining vagal authority it's basically not reacting to the bullying if the bully bullies you and you don't react to it they stop it's just done and it's and you can watch it like over and over and over again it's just like you're an asshole yeah I'm an asshole what what are you gonna do you're a pansy yeah yeah I'm a pansy like there's there's no it's like the daoists have this great saying about it it's in a fight between the sword and a sword in the ocean the ocean always wins what's that mean to you and like you have to have something to hit oh yeah if you if you attack me and you hit me I get really excited because it means there's some part of myself I'm not I'm still judging there's some part of myself I'm not allowing that means that there's more freedom that I get to go and have right so if I get triggered I'm excited because I'm like there's some something in me that is like that is still tight and solid and and and that that that that is not true that's not the ocean it's not the ocean and so for me this is what I would say to somebody who is like yeah what I do with the the hard person who's like making fun of me for crying and say great what's the part of you that's still having a problem with you crying because that's where your freedom is the every every judgment every every time we're triggered every time we get defensive there is it is a direct pointer for where we can get more freedom in our life which is why kids are so awesome to go back to it because kids will trigger the shit out of you that's another area that's another area that's another area hey dad I don't care about all of your music I don't care about all those fans I don't care about all those things that you think make you a good person I've got only a power engine and you can get to play with me exactly like boom that's just your identity just and then you get to find out what you really are because you and I are both at a place where we're like special in society somehow we're famous for this or that or like we have this like perch and this is a but you and I know we've like interacted with all those people it's not who any of us are like that nobody's special everybody but they say puts one pants one leg on at a time but you know everybody feels angry and sad and everybody feels angst and like it's happening to all of us 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the this isn't even an ad read anymore it's just a f**king war zone oh okay okay anyway if you too want something to throw at your friends or a tasty blend of 75 vitamins minerals probiotics and whole food source ingredients designed to drink first thing in the morning in one scoop it's here good drink age you one dot com such modern wisdom for stuff thank you I'm interested in the listening to yourself portion of this to just harp a little bit more on the difference between irrational instinct being at the mercy of and cultivated intuition yeah listening to the fleeting thought the quiet voice of because those two things can't be the same the person who is swept away by their anger and blows are does all of the stuff um well seen yeah do you get the the tension that I'm talking about yeah yeah and again I'm really trying to drill into again my recency bias with Charlie is the fear this is my journey this is my journey right now my journey right now is I've spent a long time in action I felt helpless for a lot of my life I then decided to step into no longer feeling helpless yeah I'm now going from that to okay unteachable lessons you but f**k me enough like I get it I get it I get it I get it like there is more there is deeper to go what's the next journey the next journey is to go into feeling everything as opposed to just acting everything yeah um okay there was a part of being swept away by emotion previously yeah a lot of it was suppression for me but for other people there may be tons and tons of dents of like emotion so irrational instinct to sort of cultivated intuition yeah talk to me about that like so it doesn't really matter in the long run so long run it the the if you're aware and you're bringing awareness to the to your actions you're gonna very very very very quickly realize that when you're swept away by emotions and you're not you're in your pattern it's gonna be painful and in the long run when you listen to that intuition it's gonna feel right it's gonna be more right it's not gonna bring all the drama so on some level you can listen to either one of them and do it because you immediately will realize or within a week or two realize that wasn't that like there's a big distinction that being swept away by the emotion didn't actually serve me and listening to that intuition deep intuition did and you'll start to make a distinction in your body so in the long run it's like the way I would say it's like if you're working out wrong if you're working out in a way that hurts your body your body is gonna get hurt and you're gonna realize that and you're gonna then change the way that you work out as an example right um but that's not like the most efficient the most efficient thing is to have someone tell you okay here's how you work that thing out so that you don't hurt yourself right and so so what I would say is that um if you are triggered or in judgment then it's not the it's not the intuition if it's like a little bit scary then it's far more likely to be the intuition because if it's a little scary it's out of your pattern oh that's cool that's cool that's cool because it's the path of least resistance is likely to be more reactive old pattern exactly the one way you go yeah oh am I gonna do that yeah and then you want to accelerate the curve you just go do that like immediately so a lot of times people will say to me I don't understand how you just have a realization that immediately it's in your life yeah immediately act on it and the answer is probably unrewarding but it's exactly that is I act on it so recently in business we were I had this recognition that I was not asking for what I wanted in a way that was clear and so I just announced the whole business hey here's this way in which I'm not clear in which and what I'm at for the way that I'm asking for what I want I apologize I'm sorry that I did that that's not fair to any of you I take full ownership of it and I am going to start doing it more directly if I mess up please let me know just directly come to me and say this isn't working and I will start making adjustments and then I found six different ways to ask for directly what I wanted how I wanted it and I did it so how was it scary yeah of course it was scary but it's like immediately doing the thing as many and in many reps as I can possibly do it that's how that's how you change it Alex Homozi's got this idea which I think is on the outside he might not seem like a compatriot of your world but he very much is in his own flavor and he here's this idea where the life that you want is on the other side of a few hard decisions and the reason that you're not living in is because you're too afraid to have them and when you have the first one what he's noticed is I you got to find someone you got to get rid of somebody and he thought about it and oh my god I got to do it and it's been there for six months longer than they should have been two years longer five years longer than they should have done and then finally you do it and you realize oh that was okay and then the next thing you do is like oh what are the conversations can I have that I like that and you've got this sniper rifle out and you turn from like being a hitman into a mass shooter and you're like okay I'm gonna like to tell to tell to tell to tell to tell to tell you like holy shit it's a machine gun yeah so it's kind of interesting that when the volume of the lesson gets so loud that you can't ignore it you finally do it but then you kind of go on this run right so hey otani you just like have this absolute streak right of and and the and the that gap that you were saying between what I would call authenticity in that deeper alignment attunement is Charlie's word for it I believe the is the is the action it's like oh what are those scary actions that I'm not taking I'm gonna go take them and if I just line those up and do those reps that that transition is much shorter and and it might you might get rid of a lot of people why let's say one of the pieces of when you get into the tumult is like oh I've been caretaking a lot of people then a whole bunch of people that you stop caretaking might not want to be in the relationship anymore the ones who stay are gonna be great is that or if I'm a terrorist and I want to stop blowing people up I'm probably going to have to change from groups if I told you about my lonely chapter idea thing basically when you go from a place that you are to a place that you are that you don't want to be to a place that you do want to be you become so developed you can't resonate with your old set of friends but not yet sufficiently developed that you built your new set of friends yeah and you're sort of stuck in this zone of uncertainty it harnesses the process you're permanently in self-doubt you don't know where you're gonna go yeah that's thinking about this I think this was maybe a couple of weeks after we were together or maybe it's a couple of weeks before I can't remember anyway this is the other side of the lonely chapter so I've been talking about this for like three years yeah I'll read you a little essay great you were a different character in the mind of each person who knows you because their impression of you is made of the bare bones of what they've seen fleshed out by their knowledge of themselves so my friend Gwinda Bogal the lonely chapter has another perspective to it as you grow you don't fit in with your friends but this means that they don't fit in with you either and this causes a reaction from their side too the hardest part of changing yourself isn't just improving your habits it's escaping people who keep handing you your old costume others don't remember who you were they enforce it which is why reinvention often feels so much like trying to break out of a prison that you can't see psychologists call this dynamic an object relation when people interact with you they're not engaging with you and you're falling full living complexity they're dealing with the version of you that exists in their head a simplified character built from fragments of memory and colored by their own projections in object relations theory and object isn't a thing it's the internalized image of another person we don't just carry people as they are we carry a mental sketch which is why if you make a radical change you'll usually meet resistance your transformation destabilizes the representation that the people around you are attached to so they try to nudge you back into the familiar role that you know Charles Horton Cooley called this the looking glass self we come to know ourselves by seeing our own reflection in other people's eyes if these mirrors keep reflecting the old you it's hard to step into the new one in social psychology self verification theory shows that people prefer interactions that confirm what they already believe about themselves and about you and if you disrupt this script to introduce friction yeah so all true and exactly why especially the places we judge ourselves is where we feel that pressure from the society however it really changes if you're just conscious about it meaning we all want to evolve there's like there's there's like a migration path that we all have we all have this and there's a lot of human development studies that show that there is a path of development that we want to go down and maybe it gets stopped because of trauma or life events but we all want to do it so if you sit down with your group of friends and you say hey this is who I was and this is who and this is a transition and I would love your support in it and this is where you can see things that are different which is what I did with the company what cares my here's what it's what's going on what I notice is at least 80% of the people want to support you in that process if it's conscious if you just go and do it it's different so that's why I had a question I try to interrupt you with which was how important is setting the scene how important is saying this is a thing that I've noticed and blah blah blah because you know the ruthless CEO archetype might just be I'll just go and do the thing I'll just say the way it's going to be you went through this unnecessarily superfluous fucking storytelling getting you know sit everybody down here come lie in my armpit like let me give you the you know yeah how important is the scene setting if this is me I've realized this thing yeah so let me let me answer that as if you were that CEO who just said that to me I'd be like yeah that's exactly how you should handle explaining the context of your company to your customer I'm not going to handhold you I'm not going to put you in my arm and elbow you rub you and nose will you and say yeah my company sells really great products of course you are you're going to set context everywhere how do I how do I how do I get somebody in on my page is to like let them understand how I'm making the decision as a matter of fact one of the things I see inside of companies one of the biggest inefficiency is that nobody has a shared context nobody actually understands all the things that the CEO understands and therefore the CEO feels like they're all alone because they don't actually have the context well from a decision-making perspective they are right like a CEO is a complex decision-making machine who has a degree of perspective and context that is unreplicable very difficult to to have anywhere else which is why this amount of perspective and context gives you the the ability to aggregate all of this stuff and it sounds to me like you're saying the job of the CEO is to try and make that perspective as widely known as possible especially within his top six and people absolutely I would say that's a bad CEO a good CEO is somebody who's helping is sharing his problems with a group of smart people making a decision with them and I assume the same is true in a relationship absolutely yeah so most relationship death comes from share not sharing context so the first thing I would say is it's very efficient to share the context you don't have to do it it's just super efficient lot less turmoil lot less clients see whether coming from say I understand that motivation yeah they're my friend I want to support them in their journey yeah and I also feel that same calling me somewhere somewhere I feel that same calling me like even if I'm making fun of you for having the emotion even that reaction tells you that they're they're something they're judging exactly they're judging themselves and so you know that they're it's in there in them so given them the opportunity open up the door for them as well by being by sharing sharing your own vulnerability and and again can't do that without an open heart close your heart down and you're not going to share the context close your heart down you're not going to bring your friends along for the ride let me give you an example I already told Charlie this story we filmed this vlog tracking the New York and Toronto shows that we did a couple of weeks ago it's beautiful I hear that I hear they're going really well man but crushed congratulations thank you yeah you've selfishly decided to put a retreat on so you can't hang out with me this Saturday but it's fine we can do it again sometime anyway max you met videographer was you know turn this at it around and it was you know a week of footage turned into an hour of light and it's beautiful I fucking loved it and I said I'm so proud and it's real it's a real different angle on the way that everything looks anyway I got all excited about it there was an error on the upload it was up for 10 minutes came back down that's like cancerous to reach because all the notifications have got triggered and then this thing happens and it pulls back down and people that were watching it can't watch it and then they're not going to watch it again in a da da da and in between one of the episodes earlier this week I come out and I'm like oh how is everything going up okay on the things I'm going to the bathroom and they were like oh yeah there was a little bit of an error and immediately my response was well what happened here's the process we need to make sure the thing I'm so frustrated and I realized a little bit later when I was talking to Charlie that what I should have done is gone ow I really loved that thing and I really wanted other people to love it too and I thought it was really special and maybe they're not going to get to see it in the same way ow I got my hopes up I should have said that I didn't we must make sure who's the process we've got to get the thumbnail with the title and get the way what so that was a that was very much you ventriloquizing me from wherever the fuck I would say both are really important ow that sucks so people can see you so like so so the so the the team can be like oh he's human and I empathize and yeah it sucks for me to and we can be human in this together and how do we make sure this how the fuck do we make sure this doesn't happen again because that anger that you feel is a boundary there's a boundary there of like oh hey like if we're going to do this like how do we make sure we're doing it right but I think both are really critical and I and that I think that is the integration that you're talking about from gunning from one place to the other it's like the there's a because there's some fear in the system then it's like I either should be open-hearted or I should be get just done and ruthless and it's like they're not mutually exclusive I can be open-hearted and be very clear about my vision and what I want to do and how I want to be and and and and the reach that I want to have of course like how could I not think about it like a mom a mom open-hearted or dad in this case open-hearted to their son open-hearted ruthless he was ruthless I am going to do this 15 minutes from my house I'm gonna do I'm not gonna tour he was it was all ruthless and deeply open-hearted for his son and it and it's both and the and the and the models that were like looking for the people who do both and we just for a while in the journey get confused that it's one or the other yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah uh you've mentioned your business too many times for me to not do this I mean I'm gonna have an intervention with you okay then you've done enough to me so I'm gonna put the shoe on the other fucking foot for a second okay have you spoken to your team after the call that means my YouTube guy had yeah man we are so grateful did you did you listen to a recording or did they give you a full breakdown did they talk to you about what I want is your new vertical for content and we've already recorded to how did they go we recorded three that tells you how it went two of them are good two of them I think are great one of them was the golf one that I think you recommend it yeah that was actually really cool yep and then there was what so context for everybody listen yeah yeah you wanted me to do reaction videos to let me I'll give context to your context okay great I had a conversation with Mike Israel about three or four years ago who was on that called was it Dean me and maybe it was just me anyway um Mike is a probably the fastest growing channel in all of health and fitness has been for the last three or four years I mentioned it on the call with your guys he's like the the big guy bald yep and you did a like a workout thing with the number of those okay yeah so what I know you're talking about friends he's been on the show a bunch the first time he came on he was like uh the YouTube channel is kind of floundering a bit there were maybe a million subs a little bit less what do you think that we should do and I'm by no means like some fucking super master at YouTube but especially if someone's super talented and they just missing the unlock yeah I was like okay here's a bunch of things from then until now they've gained three million subs in like three years so like real vertical growth and the guy is the same guy he's been in the fitness industry for forever yeah I was like oh that was cool like there was something there and we became really good friends and he uh very flatteringly attributes at least some of the growth to some of the shit that we got them although it's all his talent yeah it's largely that um and it's just the same format for you I'm sorry it's the same format and the reason I'm sorry is that one of your fundamental fears is like an increase in exposure yeah for you yeah not for the admission um but I know for a fact that if you start to do master coach critiques or master coach assesses or master coach whatever's it will it will do to YouTube something that we haven't seen for quite a while like I'm confident that that's gonna happen you've got the team you've got the way that it's filmed you've got the edits you've got as well that Mike didn't at the time the road map because you can just go I'm just gonna do the emotion equivalent of what he did for exercise science and it is I'm I'm usually not wrong okay so I so I was very resistant I was like I knew you were I said I was like he's gonna fucking hate it and I can't wait for him to hate it it is so good because I get to turn it around after he's bitched me for an entire week yeah yeah fuck you Joe huh he uh yeah so uh we you know we have a principal in our company that's everything's in iteration so I was sitting there going this is oh I don't want to do this and my team was like everything's in iteration sit your butt down because for us like our principles are more important than any one person's decision like this is this is how we operate including mine yeah exactly and so they just put stuff in front of me and and looked at looked at first of all we all decided Tara would be far better at reaction videos because she's so much more expressive than I am but there was one that was like a reality television show and my reaction was oh god why does anybody watch this that's that that went in work yeah that went in work yeah but there was there's a couple that I thought were just like amazing to do actually I I again was I was like well I was wrong that was amazing you had fun I had fun I enjoyed it unreal yeah so I think it's really critical that we get you know a list of things that I can do that would that's that are going to feel good but there's some that are just I'm not going to I can't do like pop culture comment or you're going to learn you know the the uh bucket of what isn't isn't appropriate and I'm sure that Mike has been uh his Scott the video guy his guy RP will have put videos in front of him and he's like ah no and they they probably never made the channel right or they didn't they didn't perform or whatever yeah um and over time the curation in the same way for that yeah vertical of content the same way as my guess selection is paramount it's the most important thing the most important thing for you guys is what's the video yeah what is it or the the incident or whatever that I'm responding to what is that yeah because that's the well from which you're drawing all of this stuff out yeah and as they say in the UK you can't polish a turd right um and some of them may not be turds but you're just a incompatible turd with that turd my the one that I had the most fun with was a fight scene from a comedy from I think it was like the early arts called uh called uh this is 40 and it's that you know Judd Apato who was the guy that made it he was sat in that seat yesterday oh wow yep yep yep yep so yeah so I break down that fight scene and I'm like and it was so fun I'm so fired up for you to do this yeah thank you thank you for that yeah no no no I think tightlin thumb keep it master coach something master coach critiques master coach assesses master coach reacts whatever it is yeah super simple this is 40 fight scene like uh Scotch Shifler shifler's golf speech like whatever it might be like you have an infinite amount of growth like literally a vertical amount of growth to do from that that speeches is phenomenal do you want to give a little like summary for the day I don't know what we're talking yeah so it's this I'm not a golf follower but this is the the preeminent golf guy now like just amazing apparently and he basically talks about winning and how the feeling of winning lasts about two minutes and then then he literally goes and then you guys are just asking me he's gonna say talking to a bunch of reporters you all are just asking me like how am I going to do on the next one so like it's gone like all this winning doesn't mean anything but what he says which is the secret of it all in the in like he says it like three or four times he just keeps on saying I'm just the guy who loves to practice I'm just the guy who loves to practice and that is the like what makes him so successful is that he loves the doing of it not the not the reward of it and so so many people are sitting there I their rooms right now listening to this or doing something and going I want the reward of fame I want the reward of money I want the reward of a great girlfriend I want the reward of and it will last two minutes you gotta love the thing that you're doing if you're gonna actually have the success that and maintain it right you love having conversations with people and I actually when I leave here I'm gonna talk to a woman at UTA who runs the the literary department there and we're talking about a book and and she asked me she's like well what do you want from the book and I said I won't do anything for money that I wouldn't do for free the best story I've learned from you around that I mean this need this meme needs to go so much wider than it has with you just like flicking it onto the floor like you tossing like a bit of awful into the bin or something your daughter came to you and said I've got my first billion dollar idea and you said oh wow it's an idea that you can sell for a billion dollars says no no no it's an idea that I wouldn't give away if someone offered me a billion dollars fucking yes money yeah such money and that's what you're talking about that's what I'm talking about we're gonna talk about the book before you leave as well don't worry okay I've got things that I need to say okay James clear yeah it doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it if you want to live the lifestyle then release yourself from the desire to crave the result but not the process is to guarantee disappointment to crave the result but not the process is to guarantee disappointment doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it I want fame fame sounds great I want to be a world world touring musician okay do you want to spend ten years in your bedroom playing guitar because like that that is the lifestyle right that you need in order to be able to get the life yeah the only thing I would add is there is there is a there is a great benefit to just being in the want but not not not the want so let's say I want to be famous right if I just feel the feeling of wanting or even I take the the fame out of it but I just feel that feeling of wanting there's great benefit to that often what's happening is that we feel the want and then we immediately stop that feeling of wanting and go into I should do this I should do this I should do this I should do this I should do this I should do this we're not actually spending time in that feeling of wanting and if you spend time in the feeling of wanting there is often a massive unlock that occurs so you want a whole bunch of attention you want to be liked by people but what happens is you go I want to be liked by somebody you have the thought maybe you don't even fully admit that you've had the thought to yourself and then you go I need to do this I need to do this I need to I should have done this I should have done this I shouldn't have done this which is basically avoiding the feeling of wanting but if you actually go oh I want that and I'm gonna stop everything and fully feel what it is to really want somebody's attention there is a like a massive freedom that can be found in that because what you find is that want when it's unresisted is a lot like love it's a lot like love why oh how what was it instead of that just see what it's like like think of something that you want like want your girlfriend to blah blah blah or your mom or blah blah blah and then just feel the wanting without needing anything to be different and like look your system relaxes and opens and you mentioned the similarity between telling a company the motivation and the context for why something is about to happen and the importance and relationship this is from you every relationship fight boils down to three things number one I don't feel seen number two I'm trying to change you number three I need to defend myself shift any one of those and the fight will shift to yeah yeah so the way I see most fights is I have a theory called the shame hop potato which is basically I don't feel good about myself so I'm gonna throw shame at you and now I don't feel about myself so I'm gonna throw shame at you and then we're just like passing the shame back and forth this person feels like they're always defending themselves this person feels like they're always defending themselves but my defense this defense feels like an attack to this person and this defense feels like an attack to this person so it's like you never do the dishes like I am a shame that I can't keep up with the housework and then I'm keeping score you don't do the dishes I feel like I'm defending myself look at all the things that I've done why aren't you I feel like you attack me for not doing the dishes and back and forth it just goes like that and so this person's response is well I work all day and you don't you only work 35 hours a week oh I don't work enough I've been attacked I'm ashamed and off it goes and so every single one of those things that you said there that you read there are an expression of that cycle that's going on I really see that you need more help in the house and you feel overwhelmed I don't want you to feel overwhelmed fights gone that's the being seen part oh you're right I don't do the dishes fights gone I don't need to defend myself so all every single thing is just basically unlocking that shame hop potato that's going which is basically people feeling unloved for who they are and not being able to love themselves for who they are I just love the phrase that it's like if you're trying to change somebody you're not loving them you're basically saying you need to be different to get my love huh and that usually typically means for the for yourself if you're trying to change somebody is that you're trying to also there's also some part of yourself that you're not loving why let's say I early in the relationship Tara was very big and I would get embarrassed and it was not about Tara being big it was about me trying to be seen as normal being fit in everywhere not stand out it has nothing to do with her so that part of her that I'm changing is like the part of me wanting attention that I wasn't allowing myself to feel or have so typically that's the thing and it's and it's and it's also just like that old phrase my mom actually had this on needle point in the wall I don't know like she needle pointed this phrase it's just something that happened with American moms in the 70s apparently and it's had trying to move a mountain or change a man I'll move a mountain it's easier so it's also just read that yeah it just hurts a relationship because the person will resist yeah people don't respond well to being told you need to change exactly including ourselves and yet we do it to ourselves all the time talk to me about that I should work out more I should stop smoking I should be more truthful I should run a bigger business I should be famous like all those things are the things that you can look back on a decade and haven't changed the more we're forcing ourselves to change the less that change happens where does change come from if not from motivating ourselves the same place it comes from when a little kid goes from calling to walking that's our wants it's our it's it's like being able to listen to and fully feel the want that is in our world like like wants our far more a more efficient fuel than shoulds shoulds is a very dirty fuel it doesn't work very well it's meant to kind of stop things it you know shame and shoulds are like they're meant to stop behaviors and we use them to motivate ourselves but they don't work very well whereas wants and desire and natural motivation that just burns you know it's that golf guy I love to practice he hasn't wanted about he wants to play golf that's the thing he like kept his love for playing golf that's a more efficient fuel then I should play golf every day if you want to like screw up like how many artists you know who have done this that they're an art they're loving their art they're doing great they get a job they start to having to do their art and they're like I should do my art and then their love for their art goes away like anything that you tell yourself you should do the love of it just starts going away how do you protect yourself because there are things that the difference between knowing this is the next area for growth and progress that I could put myself into yeah that is a zone of proximal development it's not what I'm doing right now I don't even know if I want to do this thing because it's kind of new it's on the you know outside of the orbit of what I've done yeah how do you know the difference between that and this tyrannical should you know this is like part of the journey it's a good part of progress it's all it can be the journey to the next one yeah the crazy thing is that oftentimes even inside of a should you can look and find the want in it right so I should go to the gym well what's the want well the one is to feel healthy the one is to be skinny the want there's like some want behind it okay you can even take that to the next level what makes you want to be skinny is I want to be attractive I want to be loved okay cool there's actually a real want there you can find the want that's beneath that should and then you have a lot more options okay so let's just just say it's I want to feel good well going to the gym is one way to feel good playing pickle balls another way to feel good hiking a mountain being in nature is another way to feel good being with friends is another way to feel good so I was gonna have these options that open up and typically when we're in a should it's a very narrow doorway so for instance when I was trying to go from not working out to working out instead of saying I should go to the gym I said what are 20 things that I really want to experiment with as far as working out goes and I want I want to see what pickle balls like I want to see what salsa dancing's like and I just and then I did all those 20 things in like side of a month and then I found out wow I really like pickleball I like I just I don't need to be motivated I don't I just I'm calling people hey want to play pickleball oh cool now I'm working out and I'm doing something I want to do hmm so it's just finding the want that's in there and then following it rather than listening to the voice in the head say should and then agreeing with it because then you're forcing yourself and we don't respond well when people are trying to change us including us so much of today's world is focused on efficiency and optimization but efficiency without awareness is just a fast way to burn out yeah that's coming from Silicon Valley um so what I notice is that people are interested in getting first of all efficiency typically in our society and work means faster it doesn't mean efficient so typically like if I have a car there's a car behind us the Ferrari that's not an efficient car nobody would call that an efficient car but it's very fast car so efficiency I think is is better is is more about how much energy you're putting into it to get it done than it is about how quickly you're getting it done but we really think about it as far as speed goes and so if we are trying to become quite quicker at everything right that that idea of efficiency without knowing why that's the case then you're just going to burn out so I'm talking to a CEO yesterday who's interested in having me coach him and we were having the discussion about how it's one fire to the next fire to the next fire to the next fire and how all this has to get done really quickly and so we spent some time to talk about hiring people and how if he hired four great people how many fires would be left oh what makes you not do it well because I have to get this stuff done quickly I have to be efficient about you know making sure that we land this contract we do this thing I'm like so you're ignoring the thing that makes you more efficient for the immediate efficiency and that's what I mean and he's gonna burn out that way whereas if he took looks at the bigger efficiency of hiring those people and so we're just sitting there basically just getting dopamine fixes sent the email sent the email sent the email sent the email we're not thinking about can I send that email so I never have to send another email on that topic again can I do this task in such a way that I don't have to do 10 more steps I only have to do five and I think that's the difference between mastery and and like competence and mastery competence is I can get it done effectively mastery is I can get it done with very little effort effectively what are the misconceptions people have about overwhelm feel like that's a pretty endemic sensation yeah a lot of people typically it just means emotion emotions I've moved oftentimes it also means that there's something that you know needs to be done that you're not doing and those are typically the two things that create that level of overwhelm and we think it's because there's so much going on oh my gosh I got this going on and this going on and this going on but what's typically happening is I'm really excited I'm not allowed myself to feel it I'm really scared I'm not allowed myself to feel it I'm really angry I'm not allowed myself to feel it and so that so we're cycling quick our minds are cycling quicker and quicker and quicker as we discuss before and then on top of that there's things that I know I should be doing that I'm not doing and there that doesn't mean that could be I know I should be resting I know I should be having that heart conversation I know I should be firing that person it doesn't mean always like I know I should be doing the thing that my voice in my head is saying you should do this you should do this you should do this is that why people always feel like they never have enough time overwhelm seems to create that as a symptom of lack of time which is kind of the weirdest thing in the world because we always have the exact amount of time I was typically I was just I was having this realization yesterday and it kind of flipped me out my life has gotten really busy recently and and then there was a moment where I had like three days where something canceled and so I had free time and I found myself doing stuff that I haven't done in months because I and I was like why am I doing this like what why am I like I got so busy that there were things that I wasn't doing and now I'm realizing I'm doing them but they're not necessary because for the last three months I didn't do them and everything worked out just fine and so there's this weird phenomenon that happens which is when we have what we think is a compression of time it just requires you to do the most important things if you're going to be effective and so the other way to look at the world is to say I'm just going to do the most important things at all the time I'm not going to do the little stuff so typically what we're doing is we're saying I don't want chaos to rain in my life so I'm going to do a whole bunch of things get a lot of dopamine hits of doing those little things so that I don't have to feel that chaos but if you're okay feeling the chaos and you can constantly just focus on doing the most important thing and one of the things that I've noticed of super hyper successful CEOs is that they are really good at focusing on the two or three most important things and letting chaos rain everywhere else if necessary they know that's the thing that if that domino falls everything else is taken care of I'm going to spend almost all my time pushing on that domino I suppose that's a skill to be able to discern it's a skill to be able to be okay with the chaos there's a book called the one thing and he talks about this pretty well he talks about if you're going to focus on the one thing then you have to be okay because some some part of your world is going to go into chaos and what I noticed is when people can't handle the chaos they they can't focus on the one thing Joe Hudson, ladies and gentlemen, Joe you're great, you're so fantastic in trepidation for what the next few years is going to look like for you from book to youtube to the courses to everything else it's uh I'd strap in if it was you I think you scared me the other day on that one you got me really good was you were talking about what it's like for you as famous increased and how the amazon truck guy will come out and be like great great podcast he's like but you said to me in your world though the amazon truck guy's going to jump out and say hey can you coach me real quick yeah no one comes up no one comes up to me expecting anything other than just like dude love that episode with Charlie recently you're so good to see you talking to you him and again or whatever whereas with you it's going to be like I have this probably me and my girlfriend I got to say that ancestral trauma oh my god Charlie please guys stop praying in front of me well look you know I couldn't or one of the very good counter signals that you put out as a part of the time that I've worked with you and everything else is like I am not your guru type sort of energy for sure and I think that's very important because there are a number of people who are without the legitimacy of you claiming to have it so to have the legitimacy of you claiming not to have it I think is good when it comes to the bullseye of focused on the mission not on the person also super it just doesn't work the other way meaning like if the person isn't their own authority it doesn't work like you can't you we can't we can't for a little while but it doesn't sustain to like give your authority to somebody else and so if someone's trying to take your trying to be your authority it's a really really really good sign not to trust them out of accomplishment youtube podcast courses everything else thank you fuck you Joe Hudson on Twitter I appreciate you around until next time pleasure what I first started doing personal growth I really wanted to read the best books the most impactful ones the most entertaining ones the ones that were the easiest to read and the most dense and interesting but there wasn't a list of them so I scoured and scoured and scoured and then gave up and just started reading on my own and then I made a list of 100 of the best books that I've ever found and you can get that for free right now so if you want to spend more time around great books that aren't going to completely kill your memory and your attention just trying to get through a single page go to chriswillx.com/books to get my list completely free of 100 books you should read before you die that's chriswillx.com/books