#104 - Xavier Jean: owner of Couvent des Jacobins

- Hello Xavier. - Hi, I'm to end. - Thank you very much for some not really welcoming us because we are currently at Club Battle but for being here in Hong Kong. So the full story is kind of different from the other person I interviewed because I think it's been five or six years that we know each other, something like that. Actually, Emmanuel Kwa was one of the first person I interviewed in the podcast, put it us into a, in relation. And the thing is you live in Singapore, so for me living in Paris, it was kind of complicated to see each other. But we've experienced Kuvon de Jacobin, which is your property in Santa Minion. Actually, Marin, my girlfriend, did the harvest. Thanks to you. - Oh yeah, we remember that. - They all remember that. - Oh, in a good way. - So if you take the 20, 21, I think I know the vintage, you can be sure that it. - It will taste great. - It will taste very, very great. So we'll definitely talk about a lot of things together, but first, can you start by introducing yourself? - Sure. So my name is Xavier Jean. I'm the fourth generation owner of Kuvon de Jacobin. So it's a grand quick-lassé in Santa Minion area. And it's been in the family for about 120 years. So my great-great-grandfather, but it's in 1902. And I'm in Hong Kong today because we are doing a very unique vertical of large vintages of Calissam, which is our new project that we started in 2015. So the family legacy wine is Kuvon de Jacobin. It's been there for decades. And in 2015, we launched Calissam and we are here to talk about it to the Hong Kong crowd. - Amazing. So let's talk a bit more about Kuvon de Jacobin. So for you, I think it was your own that was a common bit before. Did you grow, still grew up in wines and wine environment or were you kind of far from the estate? - So it's very, very interesting story. So my great-great-grandfather had two wives. The first one is our lineage. And the second wife is the grandfather, the other family branch of Roselle Borde, who was the owner of Kuvon de Jacobin. And I never really knew my grandmother's. They passed away when I was very young. And so I kind of, she became my grandmother by adoption. But the family has been in St. Louis since 1810. So I've lived in St. Louis, we were living in another château at the time called Château Trimoulé, who was purchased by Château D'assaut. In 2015, but I spent my whole life at the château. And in Saint-Emilion, it's the village in which I grew. And I went to school there. And I did the harvest and I did the vine works and been on the tractor and so on. So yeah, I'm very attached to the village. - Okay, so you still witness that. And so in was it 2014, also 2012? 2012, so your own passed away at that time. And so you had the opportunity to become the guy behind the corner of the corner. - So actually it's a bit more, so she passed away in 2019. But I became more involved in Couvant de Jacobin. So the first thing in which I really became very involved was 2012. So 2012 is the vintage in which I can say that I contributed a bit more to the idea, to the wine making, to the philosophy, along with our wine maker, Denis Promahead. - Because you wanted to be more involved at the same time? - So you came to see your aunt and more like I would like to be a bit more. - No, since I was a kid, I've always liked wine. And my dad was a wine maker as well in Trimoulet. He had his own château. And the family, all the family had estates 'cause my grandfather was the mayor of Saint-Christophe de Bard, Pierre Jean. And he had lots of kids. And each kid had a wine property. So I've really lived in this world. And Rosette and Alan, so Rosette and her husband Alan, did not have any kids. So I became a bit like the kid by adoption in a way. Since the 1990s, early 1990s, since I was five or six years old, I can remember being at Couvante de Chacoban and being with them all during all weekends. And yeah, and he grew on me like that. - The Couvante de Chacoban has a story also in your family, because if I remember well, it was acquired in your family, so in the 19th century, but it was like not by in-air retains, but by hard work and by really wanting to buy this. - Yeah, so I think at the time, so a very little is known about the family between 1800s and late 1800s. But what we understand from doing some research about the family is, so when Guillaume Jean, so our ancestor arrived in Saint-Emilion, he was, we think he was an agriculture farmer in the lower side of the village. And he probably did well for himself. And as he accumulated maybe a bit more money, he could start buying a bit more vines and doing a bit more wine. And at some point, they became fortunate enough to have enough money to buy the Couvante de Chacoban. But he was a complete ruin when he bought it in 1902. There was no wine making, there was no wine making facility. The house was in disarray. There was just so much work to be done. So he was in the middle of the village of Saint-Emilion, but it was just not livable in a way. And so the whole adventure of the past century has been to acquire the different plots and refurbish the Couvante, which had a big history even before they purchased it. And yeah, we try to continue it today. - Yeah, and so you continue, continue it when arriving because you bought some vines for Calissem. You created also an hospitality project around that. - Yeah, so Calissem, it's really a great adventure. So Couvante has been existing as a label for about a hundred years. But you know, Saint-Emilion is kind of difficult to create. So we are in the Couvante in the middle of Saint-Emilion. And so you don't have vine plots around because it's inside the village, which is making it's very, very charming in a way. And so when my ancestors started building the vineyards, so they bought first plots on the plateau, just on the other side, the east plateau, then on the north plateau, next to the roundabouts. And then the biggest block was on the slope on the one-south-west slope and the foot hill. Not too far from Coutet, down of Chateau Coutet, Grand Main, around this area. Not far from Angélieus as well, on the other side of the road. And so over the decades, the vineyard became a bit bigger. So from zero hectare in 1902, now it's about 11 hectares. And then Calissem, how it came is, so one of our neighbors wanted to sell a plot, but we couldn't include it in the Couvande-Jacques-Oban, because Couvande-Jacques-Oban is a classified estate. And you cannot buy another plot that is not classified and include it as part of your vineyard. So, and the plot was very unique anyway. It was very old clones of Merlot. They were planted in the 60s, early 60s, and they were never replanted. So you had a very homogeneous plot of old Merlot, very, very nice, very, very nice Merlot, and we got the idea of creating a specific Cuvé for that, because we wanted to maintain the uniqueness of it. So that's a very recent project. But so Calissem is not in the classified version of Santa Mirona. No, okay, very interesting. We are not in the in the classification. It's funny, because when you compare that to other classification in Bordeaux, like for example, the 1855 classification, the game is basically, you buy like a second, great growth for 1855, then you buy a sheet ton of vineyards around this, you consolidate everything, and you just like triple the volume that you produce with other vines. It's, I didn't know it was a, it was not possible in a. No, in Santa Mirona, it's very controlled, and every 10 years you have the, the classement, the classification. And so there's a lot of checks about, you know, how big your estate is, and so you can ask after a few years to have a certain plot to be included as part of your classification area. But with Calissem, we thought the plot was just too unique and too interesting to melty or to incorporate to the Cuvé. And it's like, Santa Mirona style. Like if you drink Calissem, you drink Calissem specifically. Exactly. Even though it's from Santa Miron, but it's like, first it's Merlot, which is not the main, the main characteristic, and found it's 100%. - It's not also, so it's different. - Yeah, I think it's, well, we don't know how we will have tasted if you included it in Couvon, but it's the philosophy and the great variety, the place where it comes from, the way the berries taste and their flavors and so on is quite different from what you have at Couvon. And yeah, it's the wine at the end, the philosophy is really, we are trying really to do the same, but the flavors and the intensity and so on is just not the elegance and the types that we have at Couvon. It's much more deep and rich and concentrated and intense. - Yeah, and for me, when I discovered Couvon in Jacques-Ouven, thanks to you, I was super impressed by the history that you have. And so first for me is one of the most underrated wines of Saint-Tempe-Neon, I feel, because I think it's like such five euros per bottle, something like that when you buy them a primer. And I'm like, this is, I think it's a still, like at least it's a good value. And I tell that not because you're here, but really for the audience, I think it's a very good investment into Saint-Tempe-Neon if you want to drink it. But apart from the wine, you also have an amazing place. Like Couvon by itself is beautiful. You have a cellar that is absolutely stunning. So you started renovating all of that. How is it going? And can you tell us a bit more about visiting and hospitality around this? - No, absolutely. So obviously Couvon, Couvon Jacques-Ouven is associated with the wine that we make. But we like to think that it goes beyond that. The story goes beyond just the wine that we make. Of course, it's a very big part of what we do. But it's like, we like to think about Couvon as a piece, it's like a real piece of Saint-Tempe-Neon. It's piece of Saint-Tempe-Neon history. 'Cause it's right in the middle of the village. And so you were talking about the cave. So underground about 10 to 12 meters below ground. That's where we store the wine. It's just a wonderful place. It's full of history. You open the doors and there's no noise. You just forget about all your worries and you just step into a different world. And we were not maybe that visible for many, many years because our philosophy is to be a lot more discreet. And because our wine making facilities are in Saint-Tempe-Neon, you can't do that much in Saint-Tempe-Neon. You can't build something bigger and bolder and grander and so on. So at that time, where a lot of the shadows were creating very vast cellars and so on, we kind of cultivated a bit our uniqueness in terms of discretion and so on. And over the years, it naturally came to us that knowing our customers, welcoming customers, in addition to working with the trade, of course, but really developing this link with people who enjoy our wines was just the future, one of the futures of wine. And so in 2020, we started thinking about what we could offer a bit unique to guests who would visit Couvande-Jacques-Oba. And so for about six months, we try to create an offer of interesting visits, interesting experiences. So it's only private. So that we maintain a bit the atmosphere and the uniqueness and the closiness of the place. But we have a tremendous amount of visitors that come for lunches and dinners and cooking classes. And blending classes. And it's a very. I know it's in Saint-Émille, but it's a very almost burgundy style, very cute, very cosy setting. You can't welcome too many people as well, because the place is really quite small. And so it adds to the ambiance that's really fantastic. And in 2024, so we bought a little house just next to the entrance where we have now our showroom. We never had a wine shop, our wine boutique until 2024. And now we are able to welcome our visitors, not only to visit the sellers and the Cav and just experience the history, but also come for tasting, just come from the street. And then you can just look around. It's really, really nice. And that's amazing. It's been a few years. I haven't been to Saint-Émille, I think, two or three years. And sometimes people say that Saint-Émille doesn't move and is boring and stuff, but you're the ambassador of it not being boring and not being all the same. Yeah, a lot of things are going on in Saint-Émille. I think there's a lot of dynamism. Everybody is trying many different things. So you could see it also. So wine tourism has always been there, but maybe not advertised the way it should be. And so you see more and more shadows, including ourselves, offering cultural events, concerts. We were the first ones in Saint-Émille to do a comedy club, where you welcome a few humorists, stand-up comedians, and you open the couvans in the garden. So it's really very intimate, a very intimate setting. And you have a theater, you have branches, you have cinema in the different shadows during summer. So I think the appellation is super active, trying to just get people to come to Saint-Émille and to enjoy the wine, but also to experience the city and just leave interesting cultural experiences. So on yourself, you're mostly based in Singapore, where you have a full-time job and daily life. How do you manage this relationship with Comon? I guess you must call Donnie and the team almost every day, I guess. Yeah, so Donnie is our GAM, a general manager, and they were wine makers. So it's been with us in 1998. And most of the team at the vineyard and in the couvans, between eight and 15 years or 20 years. So they've been with us for a very, very long time. And the fact that you have a great team on site, it just makes me very confident that you don't necessarily need to be there or even call them every day just to make sure things are going well. You call them because you want to have news and because you want to be involved but not to check on their work. No, no, no, because they know what they are doing. They will decide on the major things, like harvest date. With Donnie, I discuss a lot more about the planning, what we want to do, investments, the commercial aspects as well, where we should try to focus our activity, where do we want to discover new clients. We also exchanged a lot about the wine-making philosophy, but we've been working together for 15 years now. And I've known him since he arrived in couvans, so we've known each other for 25 years. And so it's a lot more about what more can we do to make our wines even more interesting, to talk to amateurs and wine connoisseurs about it. And then with Calisem, it was a complete white page to write because we didn't have the plot, we didn't have the label. We didn't really quite know what type of wine we wanted to make until we made the first vintage. But and of you see, during the harvest, I'm always there during the harvest, I'm always there during the primaire, generally during Christmas, and generally also one or two weeks during summer. But it's been a very symbiotic relationship that we have together, and I trust him very, very much. Yeah, I spent one day with Donnie a few years ago, and it was amazing, I learned so much. So it was really early in my wine journey. And I feel like you know, you unlocked so many knowledge and things in just one day. So that was amazing. So you've been in Asia for like 15 years, 20 years now? About so I arrived in 2009 in Hong Kong, so that's about 16 years. 16 years, yeah. So since day one being here, so you were already owner of Comon Asia Common, and you had this attachment to it. Did you start from day one, trying to bring the wine here and trying to taste it? Like did you arrive in Hong Kong with a few bottles in your suitcase? So Emmanuel Kwa, whom you know, we've known each other for a very, very long time as well. And And he knows how our wine very well. So Kuvant, just to let you know, from one year to another, it's between 30 and 40,000 bottles per year. So the quantity is not really that much. And the way we've distributed our wines, if we try to identify markets or customers who are looking for shadows with a relatively smaller volume of production. And Emmanuel introduced me, so Emmanuel introduced me to the Hong Kong market. And he known Linden from the fine wine experience, who are hosting us today in their wonder fruit club, a club batard. And we got acquainted. He came to the chateau in, I think, 2013 or 2014 with Linden. And Linden discovered our wines. He discovered Pouvant, he discovered Calisem. And then the fact that I was in Asia really helped develop the relationship. But in Hong Kong, I actually was working quite a lot for my other job. So I didn't really have much time to do a lot of wine promotion and talking about Kuvant. But I started doing this when I moved to Singapore. So when I moved to Singapore in early 2011, I came with a few bottles in this case. And then I started meeting people and Emmanuel Kuerf. So this guy again introduced me to a distributor there. And then we started developing the markets. And it was very important to be there. Because at the beginning, I think when you open new markets, when you discover new clients, as the wine maker or as the owner, you have to be there. You have to talk about your wine. You have to meet the people. And you just have to be very active, rather than just expect the wine to be sold. That doesn't happen like that. Yeah. We were discussing that with a GM of an estate in Santa Estefe like two weeks ago. And it was like, yeah, if you expect your wine to be sold in some places, you need to have boots on the ground. And you won't sell wine just by being there once. This is good for you to start the connection. But the thing is, you need to come regularly or have people present. But you need to have dinner with people to show your wine, to talk about it, to show it again. And it just makes it more and more present in the environment. And then you will start selling your wine. Yeah. Especially if you want to do this on the long period of time. If you want to sell a 5,000 bottle one year, maybe you can succeed with a few meetings. If you want to do this 5,000 bottle per year forever, then you need to maintain this market. And really-- Yeah. In order you have this concept, which is not very nice of a one-shot. So one-shot is when a shot is going to sell a lot of wine in one go, generally for just one market. But with Cuvan, because the quantities are not really that significant, and we want to hold back on stock so that we can offer many different types of integers to our different clients. We've kind of taken the strategy of developing things on the ground slowly. And you know, it takes time to go meet the restaurateurs, go meet the private clients, the trade, know the right people. You can only do two diners per day. So you're right. Yes. The third one is complicated. Exactly. And-- but you know, you talk about dinners and lunches, but it's very, very important to showcase your wine. And we are super lucky. So you might remember when you came and the marine, I'm sure, remember as well. You know, when you go down in our cave, you have all the live-de-back library of Cuvan de Jacobin. So we have wines from the forties to today. And one of the great things that we do when we do the wine dinners, and when we talk about Cuvan and when we have-- when we exchange is the ability of having many different vintage-- That's amazing. --because wine, aged wine, is oftentimes something that people like a lot. And you can see how wines evolved, how different vintage evolve over time. And that was a great-- that was a great way to introduce our wines to Hong Kong and to Singapore. And the ability to taste all the wine is, I think it's amazing not only for the taste, I suspect of it, because sometimes it can be a bit disappointing or a bit more-- most of the time you don't do it for the taste, but for the experience of opening a piece of history of some place. Oh, totally. Yeah. And it's amazing. Especially when you know that-- So today, I think today we are-- everyone in Bordeaux and in San Timilion is very attached, very obsessed about super highly precise wines and a lot of micro-vinifications. And you know, the hour at which you're going to harvest. But when you think about some of the wines we've tasted from the '80s or '70s or '50s even, there was no term or regulation. They didn't have machines to separate the stem from the berry. Even my lo-like thick fermentation was not a standard. It was not very understood. You used oak when you had money. Otherwise, you would keep your oaks for two, three, four years just to give it a bit of a taste. And maybe those wines didn't taste very well for the first 15 or 20 years of their lives. But now you taste them and you're like, wow, it just tastes amazing. And you compare how much work we put today into the wine making and how much work they were doing. And they didn't really bother with a lot of things. I mean, they tried to make the best wines they could. But the technique was so-- Yeah, they were not over-intellectualizing some easy choice. We harvest everything today and bathe it and we want to be that person. Yeah. I think we have to be careful not to over-intellectualization and this is the exact word. But you know, it's a marginal improvement stuff. Once you-- I think I'm not doing wine yet. But I think if you do the basics very well, like meaning you manage a good-- you have good grapes, good harvest dates, and you do things in a proper hygiene environment. You've done like 80% of doing a good wine and wine that will be good to drink. But if you want to do the 20% remaining, then it's not like the 20% quality remaining. It's not 20% of work remaining. It's like one thousand times more work than what you did so far. So-- It's totally correct. But then I'm not even sure this is even the more difficult part. I think to me, the more difficult part is trying to determine the type of wine that you want, the philosophy of your wine so that the taste still reflects the vintage effect. But the underlying philosophy is about the same. So when you drink a bottle of Calisame, it's going to be different, of course, in 22 versus 21. Because the weather was different, because alcohol is different, because the berries are different-- I don't know if I'm a fine size different. --many, many different reasons. But you will have-- you will know what the wine maker wanted to do. And you've tasted that philosophy in the previous integers. And that's-- I think that's also what has been difficult with Bordeaux. And now we are trying to get back from it is, if you change your philosophy too often, one year, you're going to make a very OK wine. And another year is going to be a very fruity wine. And then another year is going to be super concentrated. And then another year is going to be much more light. It's not very visible. And so trying to know what you want and try to stick to it over many, many, many years, I think is the more difficult part. Yeah, I've been-- I've been a proper identity. And not just identity of the region, and not just identity of the Europe, but something that is a bit more standing. So from Singapore, how did you see the market evolved for Saint-Emignon, Bordeaux wines over the last 15 years? It seems that there were up and down moments where Bordeaux and French wine, in general, were at the top and then decreasing a bit. How did you feel that in Singapore? So there's been cycles. So in Singapore, just after the global financial crisis, so in 2010, Singapore welcomed two very large casino resorts, so integrated resorts, they call them. And that kind of was the beginning of a real boom in food and beverage industry in Singapore. So you started seeing a lot more interest for food and diversified international foods, a lot more interest for wine as well, because when you have food, typically, you will have wine. And so you had this decade running up to COVID of great expansion of the industry, a lot more interest, a lot of very interesting foods. Younger crowds as well, who maybe they were in their mid-20s and they were having their first job and they wanted to go out once in a while with their wives or girlfriends or partners. And so the wine business in Singapore just boomed. And then you had COVID, which kind of put a bit of a halt to the trade. But you know, the market is relatively resilient despite some of the issues that the FNB industry faces in Singapore. In China, and in China, it's been a bit different because in 2013 you had this corruption clumped down that kind of triggered a bit of a decrease in the wine sales. But then the market probably is coming back on a better ground. So it was like in Japan, they overbought in the 90s and then it took about 20 years to kind of rationalize, normalize, understand the distribution channels. And I think this is going to happen in China within the next 10 to 20 years. It's a market that to me looks a lot like the US at some point. It's like, you know, we start getting into wine, we buy, we overbuy and we buy overpriced bottles. Then we realized that we can do wine ourselves and we start planting. Then decreasing consumption of wine because we were like kind of fooled by the other wine countries. And then consumption becomes a bit more normalized and goes to better ground like value wines, not just the big labels, but more precise stuff. And yeah, and people being more and more into it, but like not in the sense that, yeah, I want to show that I drink big bottles, but in the sense I'm actually enjoying it and I want to discover it. I think it's just a market measuring. Exactly. And it's oftentimes you need a big crisis in order to clean up some of the excesses of the past. But you know, we have a lot of Asian visitors in Saint-Millian. You are talking about wine tourism. So Saint-Millian, we receive about a million and a half visitors per year in the village. It's really a lot. When you see the village, it's just a few. So best season actually to visit is May June, April May June. And then if you want to be less crowds, it will be a second half of September October. And then maybe early November, if it's not too cold. But you are seeing more and more interest from Chinese visitors. So they will come to Saint-Millian, they will love it. They will not necessarily bring back wine to China because it's a bit difficult for them to do that because of the import taxes and all these things. But at least they understand they see Bordeaux. And typically that's the first step in appreciating a product and appreciating an experience is you have to go to the heart of it. And you will feel good, you will enjoy and you will remember. And then when the opportunity in the future comes to drinking wine, then they might remember their experience in Saint-Millian or in Bordeaux wherever they go. And they will think, "Oh, maybe I have another experience, maybe I'm going to buy a bottle for a special occasion." And little by little, that's how it develops. But in China, I went too fast after the global financial crisis within five years. They had just bought too much wine and at some point it had to go down. Yeah, it was a. It seems to me that it was like really gold rush and everyone says selling a lot of bottles seems amazing but I was too young to enjoy that. But I would have loved to be in China at this point, for sure. Oh, it was. Wow, we have great memories about it. You know, you were. What is distributor? And you were going from. So it was between 2009 and 2011, about two and a half years. And then you would go from. They would take you from city to city to meet a lot of customers and do a lot of dinners every night. You had a different dinner and you were in a different city. And then the day after you had to fly to another city or take the train or take the car. And it was really like a road show. And you were with many of the other wine growers in San Similion. And so you had. Or in Bordeaux. And then. So it was very fascinating. But it went maybe too fast. And the market at that time was not necessarily so mature. And now it's. You know, it's going to mature like every other market has mature. There's no reason. How do you. So, as I told you a bit before, for me, so Couvon de Jacques Comin is kind of the. Like a jewel from San Similion, but that is not very well known. How do you cultivate this? Like I know you want people to obviously know about Couvon de Jacques Comin because when you do wine, you want to share with people, you want to sell the wine, of course, with it. But it feels like your branding and your work on that is like you manage to keep this identity that you have, this authenticity that you have around not being exuberant and stuff. How do you. Is it conscious from you or do you just go with the flow? I think it's just the way the family has been. It's just. I think what you drink in our wine reflects very much the way we live. Right? So, we don't like to make noise. If you know the press, if customers love our wines, we are just super happy. But we are not. I think we just don't want to do things that is not part of who we are. And you know everybody has its own way of talking about the wines, showcasing the wines, making wines, pricing wines, being out there, you know, in the press or whatever. And it's not that we don't need it because it's always very nice, you know, to be recognized and so on. We have a following of customers, they buy Couvons because they've been buying Couvons for a long time, they know exactly what our philosophy is, they know that when they buy a bottle, they will find, you know, a taste and an identity that they recognize. But I remember it was a bit tough, so in the 2000s, so in the US it was very difficult for us to sell wine because we never made wines that were on the very old key side, very concentrated, very punchy. We never made wines like that. And so the critics didn't really taste our wines because it was not necessarily the taste of the wines that they liked. And so yes, it was stuff in the US, but then we could still continue, you know, providing our wines in Belgium or in the Netherlands or Switzerland or in other markets that were less sensitive to those tastes. But I would say we're discreet, but what is important is I think it's important to be discreet, but not static. And the whole wine, you know, visitors and tourism can that we've developed over the past five, six years. I think it's also showing to our customers from the trade and the negation and the plus the bordeaux and our distributors that we are, we are just not, you know, quiet and tired and lazy. We are, you know, we cultivate this discretion, but we are trying to be innovative, but intelligently innovative, not like big bank, big bank innovative. I think it's like constructing your distribution, you know, it takes years and you do it step by step, small step by small step. And that's also the way we've kind of cultivated that. It's an amazing, an amazing approach saying discreet, but not static. I think I believe that a lot of people in the wine world, and especially in France and in like all regions, make the confusion between both. And they're like, no, but I like I do want, but I don't talk about it. And you know, we are super prestigious and we are, we don't need whatever marketing and events and whatever. So yeah, it's a, it's a good approach, I think, for, for people listening, having vineyards and stuff to make this distinction. I had a question, but I just forgotten it, but it was a really good question. Let me try to remind me of that. Maybe, maybe while you think one of the things we had noticed with with big, big bank things is it can work, but you need to do it very frequently. Because if you do something big, like a big marketing stunt or you know a big wine or you have a great grade from a journalist, I mean, it's going to create a lot of dynamism and activity. But then if you don't keep it up very often, then you know, it's just, it's just like a big thing and then it blows out. It kind of fizzles out. And so we kind of prefer going the other way around. So you do small things, small things, small things, and then you build up, build up, build up, build up. And then you get to that level where people start, you know, recognizing you and understanding you and understanding what you're trying to do. And, and you don't have to kind of keep on doing big things because then people, they move, you know, the news flow, people, they move to other things. Because somebody else is going to do something bigger than what, what, what you're doing. So, yeah. And like when we see, when we see new estate communicating on their new share, I don't know how to say in English, but like the new wine making facilities, you're like, yeah, okay, it's amazing. But you can only do that. once every century you want your own change. And we can't compete with that. So I think that's also a very interesting thing that we kind of sought a lot. So because our terroir is a bit more scattered than the other shadows at Coven. So Calissam is very homogeneous. So it's a bit different but at Coven. So we have a bit of the plateau, we have the bit of the slope, we have the the foot heel. So it's you know limestone and clay, it's clay, it's sandy clay. And so it's not as homogeneous as a lot of the other shadows. And then for a long time I said, ah, that's that's a pity that you know we don't have the same kind of homogeneous in the souls that we have. But then you notice that you know in a given year, maybe in one plot, suffers a bit more from drought or frost or whatever. But then the other ones are going to compensate and balance. And the fact that you have all these different plots create some sort of consistency in the wine because of the diversification of the locations of the plot. So something that you think would be a weakness, in a way it's kind of turning into a strength. And so we kind of sometimes we just don't see all the strengths that we have because either it's business as usual for us or we which is don't think that it could actually be a strength. And so we only started the wine tourism, you know five years ago, we've always had people visiting the shuttle but we never really thought, oh, maybe we can open it more broadly. And now you know it was so usual for us that we didn't even think about doing that. And now we are doing it. So you see this kind of approach that we take sometimes. No. - So I remember the question I wanted to ask you. So that's great. For taking the time here. So you're in Hong Kong for like 36 hours, something like that. The goal for you is to showcase Calisem, especially here at Club Batar and with your importers here. What is the like the playbook that you follow or the main things that you have to do to present a wine and to get to know the trade in a city? I think it's just to give you the background of the question. The question I'm asking myself is, is I have a wine estate that I have to develop and I want to get into a market like that? I will obviously spend 24 hours in some places. What's gonna happen and what do I need to do in this moment? - I think in 24 hours is the good thing that you can do in 24 or 48 hours is you can start trying to get a vibe from where is the wine sold and what is sold? So do you see it in restaurants? When you go to a restaurant, do you see a lot of different wines or not that much wine? So even before you know thinking, or what are the big buyers, what are the type of wines that they like and so on? It's just trying to get a feel from, is there potential for just wine as a product, wine as a beverage in a given city? And so obviously Hong Kong is very dense. There's a lot of different places for eating and so on and this part of the culture as well. But what I would do is I would just walk around, especially in relatively crowded or places where you have lots of restaurants and I would just look at the menus, what they offer, I would just look at the wine lists and the extent to which wine is something that could actually be interesting. And then you have to do your research. You have to, first of all, you have to understand where you want to distribute directly to the buyers, to the local distributors. So that can be a bit difficult if you maybe don't have a strong brand or if you have a lot of volumes. Do you go through an intermediary? So in Bordeaux, we have the Nigos, who's historically been very, very good at developing outside of France. And then there's some distributors who are more suited to distribute your wine than others. It depends where you want to sell your wine. So if you have a slightly less expensive wine and you want it very widely distributed, then maybe a distributor with contacts in a wine shop chains or the chains of restaurants or even supermarkets or distribution like that would be the perfect idea for you. If you produce a wine which is maybe smaller quantities and you don't have that much volume, but you want to maybe be a bit more selective or you're targeting specific demographics or customers, then you will maybe choose a distributor that is specialized in this kind of thing. So we work with the final experience for more than 10 years now. There were the first buyers of Calisem actually in the world. So Linden and Mike, they trusted the project. They just tasted 2015 and they liked the wine and they were not so big for border wines. There were much more famous for Burgundy, but they had this client base of amateurs who are very interested in discovering new stuff. And Calisem was very new at the time. It's just Merlot from very old vines and vinifying in a very bourguignon style in a way. Quite powerful but very unique, very unique taste. And we didn't have the volumes to distribute it everywhere. We just had a couple of hundred bottles for Hong Kong. I think there was about 150 or 200 bottles. So you have to really select the distributor based on, you know what you are, what you are, the story that you're telling and what your wine is telling as a story. Okay, and then in what you do during the day, so I think this afternoon you are like, having master classes with sommariers and trade agents and that type of thing. So it's basically like showcasing your wine again and again and again, the whole day trying to get to make sure people know what they talk about and the experience that they have behind the wine. Yeah, so we noticed with the trade, it's important to just to go, you know, they may like your wine or they may just like another wine. But it's important to go meet them and then just, you know, say hello, understand how they work, understand their clients, you know what their clients like. It's also a good, it's also a good way to understand, what they think about Bordeaux in general. Because obviously Bordeaux has its ups and downs. Especially on sommariers. Exactly. You have sommariers that are against Bordeaux and I don't know why and then sommariers that are. But there are great stories to tell in Bordeaux. I mean, it's such a diverse region and yes, there's been issues and so on, but like everywhere. And one thing that the trade has been Bordeaux for is not going to see them often enough. We had this interaction via the trade, via the trading Bordeaux. And the wine makers maybe didn't necessarily go on the road enough. I mean, we are doing it a lot more now, but just meeting people is just very, very important. Understanding what they do and even having them taste your wines. But there's a lot of competition obviously. And but that's okay, at least you are out there and you are talking not only about your wine, but you're also talking about the region. Yeah, that's essential. That's essential and it's a good way for people to put a face on the bottle and to remember stuff also. Because when you talk to your, when you are sommelier or when you're working in wines, you are obviously you are selling wine, but you're selling an experience. When you are at the restaurant, it's not the same someone saying, yeah, it's a centemignon with a distar and distar. Whereas this is the Jean-Familie, they've been into it since six generations. This is a coupon nestled in centemignon and you know, with all the information around that and then you can picture the things and you're like, yeah, of course I, yeah. I order this bottle, the story is amazing. It's much easier for them to talk about it and that's why we are doing a lot of work. So in centemignon, I know a lot of shadows are doing that as well. You're trying to do a lot more work with the sommelier, with the trade. You welcome them to your place. Sometimes you even have them work a bit during the harvest. You know, do the sorting, do the cutting. Maybe they stay a day or two and then they observe how the wine maker is doing it. They taste the different vats. And they can talk about the château after. And if more château's do that, then I think Bordeaux has a great card to play. - Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So don't think Bordeaux is not moving or anything and just go there, visit there and you will find amazing places. Of course, there are some points we also don't like. But we won't say who today. Xavier, thank you very much for all of this. I think it was a super dense and interesting podcast. Thank you very much for taking the time this morning to do this. - No, thank you, Antoine. - I'm super happy that we finally do this because we've been texting and following each other for a year or so. But never had the chance to properly take the time to do this. Thank you. Thank you very much. For people who are watching or listening, definitely go visit Kuvon de Jacobin. Xavier told you it's just open. You can, there is a shop in Saint-Emenion, you can sleep there. It's an amazing place. Before the ending this episode, I have three last questions. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me? Oh, so I don't know if you've, somebody else on your podcast has recommended that, but I read recently, Wine and War. So it's about how Bordeaux, Bergen-D, and I think, L'ouard, the life during the Second World War. So that's very interesting, and there's a lot of testimony from different people at the time, and you see how the Germans kind of dealt, and how the Bordeaux lay and the Bergen-D people dealt with, you know, the wartime and so on, is fascinating. We collection of what happened at that time. Definitely. So we will put a link in the description if you want to check this book. I don't think someone ever recommended this one. So I will definitely. It's in English, I believe. Alright, I will definitely check this out. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved? Something that you tasted that was amazing? Actually, yes, so there's two. Yesterday, so I was treated to a wonderful bottle of it's a Bordeaux wine. You can't escape. It was a Saint-Géliens, Louisville-Barton 1985, and it was a half bottle, so you know, you never really quite know with half bottle. Sometimes, they are a bit old, but this one was just so fragrant and it's very fresh in my mind because I had it yesterday and it was just very, very unique. Inklad-Bata, actually. Amazing, and the other one, you said the. So the other one, it's a bit controversial, so I wanted to. What I thought was an absolutely wonderful wine pairing between a collection of different wines and ice creams, home made ice creams. Very interesting, so you had Borata ice cream, you had pistachio ice cream, and then they paired with many different types of wines. And I've seen a lot of things actually popping up about ice cream and wine, and maybe that's just a fact, but I thought it was very, very. Something very unexpected, and I really quite liked it. I love it. We'll definitely try to check this. Actually, I think that food and wine pairing is definitely something we want to work on a bit more that we haven't done in this podcast or in the content that we're doing. And I'm really starting to get more and more into it, and this is something I want to develop. And wine and ice cream, it's kind of the sexy trash stuff that I want to do. I want to try wine and nugget, or the type of things I want to, also, and not a bit more. But I think you have to break some of those ideas. Yes, probably wine and steak or wine and each cheese is just the best pairing you can get. But I think just not trying something because it sounds stupid. It's not a great way of being open-minded. So you try and maybe you like. And finally, last question, who is the next person who should interview? Well, we are in Tabata, and that place is really amazing. And I think if you have the possibility to interview the great minds behind that, so Mike Wu and Linda Nuelki, so that I've known both of them since they've been working together and they did this wonderful place that we are here today. And they have a self-partner, Randy, who is more on the restaurant side. And I think they're just extraordinary people. They are wine lovers. They love friends. They love everything about hospitality. They know their customers. They have amazing ideas. They're super innovative. And they created this extraordinary place in such a short time that I think they deserve a spot on your show. Definitely. We'll make sure. So it's easy for us. It's easier than the Centennium people, because it's literally at 15 minutes, 20 minutes from where we live in Hong Kong. So that's perfect. Thank you very much, Xavier, for all this. It was an amazing conversation together. I wanted also to thank Club Bata for welcoming us today. You've said it, but it's an amazing place in Bado for wine lovers. It's a crazy experience. I think it would be nice for us to do. We'll see with the owners if that's possible. But I think doing, of course, a podcast with them, but also a tour of Club Bata with them would be absolutely crazy because it's the type of place that you wouldn't expect to have here. It's like three stories, three floors of wine, basically, and of the most amazing wine selection that you can think of. I think it's at an amazing price, even though I'm not a member of Club Bata, but I think it's super well priced. And from what I hear, from the people here, it's really a type of place where they open wine every day, every night. It's just like setting wines, drinking and being in a place where you have this type of art to vivre and an amazing thing. And I think they have Chinese restaurant, French restaurant, cafe, everything. Anyway, we'll put the link in the description if you want to check. We'll make sure to make you guys discover a bit more Club Bata. Since we're in the thanking section, we need to thank the fine wine experience as well. So you're working with them. We had dinner with them yesterday, yesterday evening, and our amazing people are working on wine industry here. Xavier, thank you very much again. Thank you all for that. Let's make sure you discover Coupon des Jacobains. If you're still here, go check Coupon des Jacobains. Share this episode to at least two people, put a like or share whatever you're used to it. But please do it. It's very important for people to help them discover Coupon des Jacobains. And I think it's okay. Thank you all for the $60 million. Thank you very much Xavier and see you soon guys. Thank you.