#103 - Richard Hemming MW: Master of Asian Food & Wine Pairing

Hi Richard. Hi. Thank you very much for having us. I got 67. Honoli Wood in Hong Kong. So it's actually the second time we start this recording, but I didn't have the answer to the first question, but like we had a machine at the back just making some terrible noise. So we decided to start again. I was saying, thank you very much for having us. You're the head of wine for 67. Your master of wine. You recently published a book about wine and the food of Asia. Yes. Among plenty of other things, I'm sure, but we'll dig into it. My first question is always the same. Can you start by introducing yourself? Sure. So my name is Richard Heming and I am a master of wine. As you said, I've been a master of wine since 2015, but I started my wine career in 2001, which was in London, working for a retailer called Majestic. And before that, I had no wine knowledge, but after I started with them, I went through the WST and then I left them in 2007, started working in Australia. And from there, I started writing for Jansis Robinson's website and then fast forward to 2019. And I relocated to Singapore, which is where I'm based now as head of wine Asia for 66. I'm a head of 7-pound male, but also still working for Jansis and doing a few other things too. What made you decide to go into this first wine retailer and wine shop? Like, how did you. Was it just like, okay, there is light. I need a job. Yeah. Let's go for it. Yeah. Pretty much like that. You know, I was studying in Leeds University. And I had a degree in English, but I didn't want to be a English teacher or anything like that. So I was looking for a job and they were advertising in the back of the student newspaper for this wine shop called Majestic Wine. So I applied for the job and that was it. I had no idea about wine really. I drank the cheapest wine that they were selling in the supermarkets back then. I remember it was a Spanish wine and it was red, but that was it. You know, I had nothing, no knowledge at all. And so it was really just the fact that it was a good career. It looked like they had a scheme to promote their trainees so that you could move up quickly and you could be a manager of a shop. So that was why. And what? Like before started this job, maybe it's a difficult question because it may be a bit harder to remember now, but when you started a job, did you add in mind something that you were sure was true for the wine industry or for the wine people and actually turned out to be wrong. Or the other way around. A certitude that you had and actually after a few days of working, you're like, I know. Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. Now, I assumed when I started that wine was this very, um, specialized subject that you had to learn a lot about before you could enjoy it. And then ironically enough, when I learned a lot about it, I understood how, you know, really it should just be accessible. It should just be a daily pleasure that you enjoy with meals or you share a glass with friends. But the culture in the UK was never really like that. You know, in France and in mainland Europe, the culture of just opening a bottle with your family on a daily basis, I think is much more normal. And in the family, I grew up in, you know, wine was something very special. You would only have it once a week for Sunday lunch. And my dad would buy a bottle. He had no idea what he was buying, but he liked the idea of buying a bottle of wine and having a glass with Sunday roast. And so I always viewed it as this very specialized subject. And then like I said, I came to understand that really the true pleasure of wine is that it just brings people together to share a glass, talk, have some good food. And you don't need to know what it is. Um, so long as you're enjoying it and sharing it with people, I think that's, that's the main power that wine has. Yeah. It definitely gathers people and make you more open to communicate. I don't know. It's, it must be rooted in our DNA or history. Yeah. Things, but it's funny. It's funny that you said that in the podcast, we had the opportunity to interview Pierre Lorton from Shaville-Blaude and, and he came. And we were talking to like his, his wines are absolutely exceptional among the top points in the world. And we were talking about how still simple the, like the best moments you can have with these wines are not in like a white napkin, super, classic things, just like opening a bottle on a, on a Friday evening with your wife and your few friends. Yeah. And then you just, you just enjoy it. Yeah. And we've simple dishes and things like that. It makes the whole difference. So it's so true. And, and when sometimes when I've experienced some of the most prestigious bottles, you know, is a very fancy, most expensive, whether it's burgundy or napper or anything, often I experience those as a professional in a professional context. So after tasting, you know, it's very clinical and you're taking detailed tasting notes and everybody's concentrating. And actually you don't really have much fun. You don't really enjoy the wine as it's intended. But you can have a very humble wine in a great setting with people that you love. And that brings it alive, you know, and that context is so important. And I think it's one of the things that's easy to forget when people become obsessed with particular labels or, you know, collecting certain ventures, they can forget that actually, you know, it's not really about what's inside the bottle. It's what experience you're having outside the bottle. Yeah. And it's like one of the good way to reduce that is to try to taste blindly on what's everything, you know, and just see if you enjoy it or not. On the type of things it makes the game way more fun. You know, it's just with friends. Everyone brings about all you don't know what you're drinking. And then suddenly you realize that you like certain things that you thought were absolutely horrible. Because they were around. So yeah. So it's. And so how long do you do work at this first experience in the UK? It was six years. And because I had no wine knowledge when I started during that time, I did all of the WSET qualifications. So I took the diploma I think in 2005. And then I left the company in 2007. Okay. And then so you lived this company, you told me you were going to Australia is because you're either an opportunity there or you you had no idea and just took a plane and like a bit of both. I had an opportunity to do vintage in Macaron Vale in 2008. So I went over to Australia in 2007 and I was 29 years old at the time. And that was my last chance to get a holiday working visa. So I worked. I could work there for one year. And you could only stay in a job for six months. So I landed in Sydney and I got a job at a wine shop. And then I went to Macaron Vale in early 2008 to do vintage there. And when did you experience it? So it was your first time in the in the vineyard? Yeah. And actually most of my time I was in the winery. They made a lot of Shiraz. And I was mostly doing pump overs. So it's very physical. It was an extremely hot vintage, like even more hot than South Australia is normally. So I was just carting all of these hoses around and setting up pump overs. And it was it was a great learning experience. Like actually being able to understand how all of these things work in practice. Fantastic learning experience. I've got to say it put me off making wine for life. Like I'm glad I'd done it once, but I don't really want to do it again. It's not it's not the thing that makes me excited. I love visiting and I love talking to people and tasting the wine, of course, but physically making the wine. No, that's not for me. And do you thought that seeing that did you change your perception of selling wines, sharing wines? You know, like where you were realizing that in this first job in the UK, you were missing something. Yes, well, it was more that having this perspective on the inside of how wine is made, allowed me to write a diary of my experiences, which is how I got onto jansisrobinson.com. So I never planned it that way, but it was seeing the inside of the reality of production. And I wrote about it every week I was writing a kind of report. And it was sort of incognito. So I wasn't naming the producer. And I was able to be quite honest about everything that was going on. You know, there was a few practices that were a little bit hidden, you know, watering down the the the ferment. that kind of thing. So it was very honest and I think a lot of people appreciated the fact that I was able to just be truthful. So that was how I ended up going into the communication side of the wine industry. So it wasn't so much that I had an intention or that I was expecting to get a certain experience. But it was very fortunate that I managed to have this opportunity to start writing and then that took me into my next phase. Which was next phase still Australia because you stayed longer and then you're actually. No, actually I know. So I came back to London later that year. And then I met with Jansis who you know she'd been very very kind and had published these articles but I'd never met her in person. And this was before Zoom calls right so we hadn't even met online. We just emailed and she said that she was happy for me to continue writing for the website. And so that was yeah 2008 and ever since then I've been writing for the site on a regular basis. And when when you started writing about this experience in Australia, were you already publishing yourself online or it was just you were sending it to Jansis and a few people? Yes exactly that. It's funny because back then this was before Twitter, before Instagram. You were doing newsletter. I'm not even that I was you know what I was doing. I was writing articles and then just saving them as word documents on my computer. I never did anything with them except I entered this competition which was run in the UK. And it was for young wine writers. And I never actually won but I came second. And I think the winner got a contract to write for a magazine but the second place got nothing. So I was so close and that's why I thought well okay I'm I must be okay at writing. So then I just decided to send the articles that I had written to Jansis Robinson but also to a few other people and I just said I do whatever you want. Is this any good can you help and it was Jansis that got back to me and said well yeah why don't we figure something out. And so he started like that and you can see the ever ever since writing and yeah and I think a lot of people worked like that in wine. You because it's a it's an industry that brings people together and it's very hospitable and it's very communal. And so you get these opportunities that you never expected. And then you just kind of follow them and see where they go and you know I never would have predicted I would come to Singapore. I never would have predicted I would be doing a you know writing books and working in membership clubs. But it all happened one thing after the other. How did you what did you notice in wine media so it's been like ten years you've been writing about wine and like gravitating around this place. What changes have you seen in the wine media. Well I've been I think both lucky and in a way unlucky. When I started out 2008 my ambition was to get a newspaper column because at the time that was the best way of getting your name out there. And it's still obviously it would be a great very prestigious thing to have. But nowadays really there's so few good newspaper columns available because the media landscape has changed completely. So I've been unfortunate in that way because a lot of the money in writing has disappeared. You know there's no kind of good way to make a profit in print media anymore really. And even online if you want to earn a living you're probably having to do sponsorship deals or advertising. It's very hard to get readers to actually pay you their own money to take your content. I mean it's just normal now. So that perhaps was kind of unlucky timing. But then of course what happened in its place is social media has been the biggest change. And I was on Twitter for quite a long time. Instagram not so much but all of those platforms for communication. Substack is something that I'm now doing quite a lot. And I'm really enjoying that. And actually that is a way that you can get people to pay you you know for your content. And I just feel like it's a really interesting platform. So the dynamic has shifted a lot. It's much easier now to get anybody can go online and publish themselves. And that's quite amazing when you think about it you know 20 years ago that was impossible. You could have a blog but really it was very different to today. So anybody can do it. As a result there's a lot of competition. There's a lot of voices out there. It's hard to cut through the noise. And it's also hard to make an income. But in terms of you know being able to speak directly to your audience. I mean there's nothing better. Yeah. So by the way this podcast is not sponsored or advertised. So you've heard the return. Well this is a to reach out to me. No but I guess a substack or the renewal of newsletter as we now know it. It's kind of the same as being in a good column in a good newspaper. Yeah. Because it's the same for me it's kind of the same atmosphere that you could have maybe 20, 30, 40 years ago. When you were reading a newspaper and they weren't just advertisement everywhere. And you know it's often a weird return. It often goes in depth in a topic. And like it's just at least the substack I'm following. It's always I feel very good quality writing about things that are really interested to me. Interesting to me. And yeah. And so for me it's really the equivalent of being in a good newspaper. Well that's nice to hear because I feel the same. I actually follow more non-wine writers. I've followed some people who write about entertainment and culture. And I don't buy any newspapers now. It says shame because I love the idea of newspapers. But the convenience of getting an emailed report from your favourite writers. You know once a week or once a month is just fantastic. And what I think will be a big question is how sustainable is it for individuals to subscribe to multiple substacks. You know if you have 10 substacks that you pay money for that you're paying quite a lot. Yeah and it is just to be allowed. And I think maybe we'll see some consolidation there. Somebody actually writing about this on substacks saying that they wish that you could pay substack a monthly fee. And that each month you could change who you subscribe to. Yeah and then- And then- And then- And then- And then- And actually I really see the point of that. So I think we're going to see more changes in that field. Yeah for sure because if you- Like there is no newsletter super expensive but it can be like three four US per month. But if you do that like ten times and then you end up spending 50-60 even a 100 US per month on newsletter which is a lot. Okay so you've continued writing like that back to London. You're working with with Genesis Robinson and so then you have the opportunity to go to Singapore. Is it with 67 or still with with Genesis? No it was neither actually. So it was 2018 and when the Brexit vote came my wife and I just decided that we wanted to move. And we were- We had no idea where. So we just started looking. My wife at the time was a head teacher of a primary school. So we knew that we could go anywhere that has international schools. And we found a few different options but the best one was in Singapore. And I'd been to Singapore once and I thought okay well seems great. So she applied for the job, she got the job within less than one year we'd moved relocated. And we had honestly no intention of doing it before so it happened very quick. At the same time by sheer coincidence 67 Palmele was starting to develop a club in Singapore. And I was a member of the club in London. So when we moved to Singapore and they had this opportunity to work on a new club. Of course I was very happy to take the opportunity. And so I just started out working with them for just one day a week and then it built up into the role I have now. Okay and so what was this day a week it was just basic act. contributing to our opening the club. - It was really, we did a weekly tour of the site. So when we first started operating in Singapore, we had the premises, which was this beautiful penthouse of a skyscraper. But it was empty. There was nothing, literally just bare concrete. And we would take people around with a glass of champagne and show them the site and say, "Okay, this is gonna be the restaurant. This will be the event space. We have the wine tower. We've got this terrace outside." And we would sell the dream of the club to prospective members. And so every week I was meeting 20 or 30 people and showing them around. And I could tell them my experience of the club in London and I could tell them my story about wine. So we started to build this community. And then we had COVID. And so what happened then was everything went online, as you know, so we just started doing webinars and we would send wine to our contacts and our friends who would met and every week we'd sit down and share a glass. And I would be hosting either a wine maker or an expert and talking about wine. And so it built up very gradually. But that I think worked in our favor because we were able to build a trust of these people. And then the club opened in 2022. And by that time we had a full membership already on the day that we opened. So it was a great way to. - It was nice. - Yeah, it's really great. And since ever since then, we've had this full membership. - And so on your side, you've expanded from hosting these these things, doing the tours and stuff to a larger role that is head of wine. - Yes. - What does it look like? - Well, I work with four departments, events, marketing, sommelier and seller. And my job is really to make sure that anywhere in the club that the wine proposition is top quality. So if it's buying or if it's running an event or if it's communication, writing a newsletter, I work with all of those teams. So last night we did an event here in Hong Kong at the Hong Kong Club. And I was working with the team here and I was hosting the event. And it's just trying to ensure that that quality level is uncompromising. - And so you do that for a socialist Asia? - Yes, and also for Australia. So we have this club coming in Melbourne. Yeah, yeah. - And what, so here for example, at in Hong Kong, you have a very good selection of Chinese wines. It was something that we noticed and we absolutely liked the day we came. Is it the same in all clubs or you try to have different selections and like different atmospheres? - We have, so in the London Club and the Singapore Club and also to a certain extent, the club in Verbie, in Switzerland, we have a very big range of wine by the glass. So in Singapore and London we have 1000 wines by the glass and it's all done by Coraván and it's a huge range. So of course we have all of the classics from Burgundy and Bordeaux and Loire and Rhone and everywhere. But we also have much less well-known wines like Chinese wines but also we have a wine from Thailand. We have wine from Uruguay, Greece, Turkey, anywhere because we want to try and represent the whole world of wine. Here in Hong Kong, we've got these Chinese wines here. Right now we have 67 wines by the glass, all Chinese. Before this we had all Pinot Noir. Before that we had all champagne and the next phase will be all 2015. Because that's the 10th anniversary of the club. So we will have not just red wines but we will have some interesting white wines from 2015 and of course, champagne from 2015. So each time here we have a very specific theme but it's like a small proportion of what the club offers overall when we're working at the full scale. And so here in Hong Kong you're doing even based, maybe not even based, but seasonal selection of wine that you're changing like that. That's amazing. Yeah, exactly. I thought it was permanent. No, we extended this Chinese wine wall because it was so popular. So normally we change every three months but I think we've run this for six months now. Okay, wow. And so we really wanted to support Chinese wine because it's so rare and interesting. To the wider world they don't really know much about it. And then like I said, the next seems, who knows after the 2015's will keep on changing things? We'll be there for the 2015 for sure. It should be good that one. It was a very nice vintage in a lot of places in the world. So it's great to rediscover it. And actually, so we started this podcast in 2018, 2019. So I think that 2015 was among the first vintageies that we had the opportunity to taste with the wine makers, you know, like going to the States and discussing with them. We call it like I have good memories of our first in Bordeaux at Château de Ferron, for example, in Saint-Émignon and just like tasting the 2015. I think we have a magnum of 2015 from Ferron in France. So you know, it's a good memories for us. So 67, Paul Mall, we haven't actually described what is 67. We entered into your role and what you're doing. But it's basically a members club in plenty of cities. So in a bottle and on Singapore, Hong Kong, you've mentioned Verbie. Yes. You told me that Melbourne was opening soon. Yes. Shanghai as well. Shanghai as well. And then-- More nor Tonau. Bone is coming. Yes. That will be a small club, but yes. We have a property there. And in future, there will be more sites being announced. So they're not officially yet. They're mostly in Asia. And they're in the kind of cities that you would expect. So the big cities, the big international cities. So there are plans for quite a few more coming. Nice. Complete two travel through China and-- Yes. Good to go to them. Always a good place. So it's a members club. So you have to sign up. It's a yearly fee or something like that. Yeah. Yes. And then you can come music here. Yeah, exactly. So the advantage for a wine lover is, firstly, that you get access to this incredible range of wine. So 1,000 by the glass. But we have something like 5,000 by the bottle. We have a great events program. So we're doing wine maker masterclasses, dinners, two or three times every week. And again, the range is everything from really high-end super premium, bordo and burgundy in Champagne through to new discoveries from Australia or South Africa. So we really try and cover everything. But another important point is that the wine list is very competitively priced. So you're paying around half what you would pay in a good restaurant or a good hotel. So the whole idea of paying a membership fee is that you get access to this discounted wine. Yeah, that's what I saw when I entered here. A bit earlier is that you have a-- so I don't know if you see it on camera, but there are some sparkling wine. It was super impressed by the price. Yes, exactly. Yeah. 140, so basically 15 euros. And I'm like-- Exactly. It's encouraging people to experiment. And when the cost is very reasonable, and they think, OK, I'll just try this, because it's very affordable. And then they find they love it. And then they try something else. And as Amelia is always very happy to recommend something different and unusual. So it's a good relationship. And so you were a member of this club when you were in London. And then so you started working for this club? Yes. Are there, like, did you notice difference between what you expected and what you see between-- like, did you have expectations when started to work with them? The answer is yes and no. I had no idea about the realities of the business side. And that has been so interesting. Working with the profit and loss, the kind of logistics, all of the nuts and bolts that make a hospitality business work. I had no idea. Behind the scenes, there's so much more going on than most people realize. You go into the club, you go into any restaurant, you see this beautiful room, you use somebody greets you, you sit down, you have a nice meal. And then you don't realize that behind the scenes, there's all of this stuff happening. So that was really interesting. But the fundamental motivation of the club, which is to share great wine with great people, that's the same in front of house or in back of house. And so long as-- Is that stays central to the club? You know, that's what makes it such a great place to work, such a great place to be a member. So you've also wrote this book, Wine in the Food of Asia. How did you start it? It was just like you were passionate about this and you're like, "Okay, let's. " Well, not really, honestly. I'd never written a book and I also never really written about food and wine matching of any kind. So when the founder of the club Grant asked me to write a book, he said, "You know, you should think about doing Asian food." And actually, that was something I knew nothing about. So I was a little bit worried. And it was turned out to be the perfect subject because I'm not an expert and I was able to learn as I wrote the book. So I was able to explain things from the beginning. And I still don't think I'm an expert. But this book represents a very honest reflection of the research that I did. And I really did try hundreds of combinations. And we did everything at the club in Singapore. So we would put 10 wines on the table and then we would prepare maybe six or seven dishes and they were very different. So we'd have some Indian cuisine, Thai, Vietnamese, Malaysian. And I'd be trying like, "I'm going to try a Viennier with this one." Okay, it doesn't work. Now I try it with this one. Oh no, maybe I'll try the Sauvignon Blanc here. I mean, it was completely random. But I made a spreadsheet, this crazy, enormous spreadsheet, which it recorded all of my reactions. And then I started to see patterns. And so I started to figure out, okay, this style of wine goes well with this style of food. So I need to figure out why. I try it more times with different variations. So if it worked with Sauvignon Blanc, is it just Lua Sauvignon Blanc or does it also work with Moulba Sauvignon Blanc? And does it work with Oaked Sauvignon Blanc? And I really did take it step by step like that. And the whole book from start to finish was a two year project because it took me that long to work on how everything paired together. So when I tell people about the book, the thing I can tell very honestly is that it's, I know that it works for me. These pairings are not theoretical. They have been tested. And I've cooked the dishes at home and I've poured the wines and I've served them to friends. And I can stand behind them and say, honestly, this works for me. I think I can explain why it works. And then I just leave it to you to decide if it's a good thing for you personally. Or not because not everybody has to agree. I don't know if the process of writing this book looks like a dream or a nightmare. Yeah, I had to experience six different dishes with 20 different points. At the same time, so I envy you at the same time. I'm like, yeah, but if you need to do that three times a week for two years, it was a lot. Yeah, let me tell you that I love the fact that it exists now. I really, I'm very proud of it and I love talking about it and showing it to people. The writing process, that was the nightmare part. And it really was very hard to figure it out and also to explain it in language that was clear and comprehensible. And so basically for this, Grant, so the founder of 67, this ID, and he came to the series and said, Richard, you're gonna do it? Exactly. So I had no choice. And I'm glad because I'd never would have under my own initiative. I'd never would have thought of this. Yeah. You were seeing, introducing this book, you were saying that you're not an expert, but there is one thing in your career that we didn't mention is that you have also became a master of wine. So a bit earlier, we talked about your wine education, like going through the WACT level. So tell me you graduated from WACT3 in like 2007 or 2009, something like that. Yeah. You told me. But a bit before you told me that you became a master of wine way after that. Yes. So first, how do you, how do you decide it to start wanting to go for a master of wine? Well, the honest answer is that when I came back to the UK after Australia and I'd started this writing career and I started to meet some other wine writers that were around my age. And one of them in particular had just signed up for the MW course. And until that point, I had zero intention of ever studying for the master of wine. To me, it was something impossible. But when I realized that I was working alongside these kind of people that would have the, you know, the option to do this, I realized I should probably think about it. So then actually the following year I signed up and the person that I was kind of inspired by, actually she became a master of wine as well. She's called Rebecca Gibb. She's based in the UK and she's a wine writer. And she became a master of wine just a few years before me. So I have to give her the credit for inspiring me to take the jump. It took a long time because, well, you know, it takes a long time. It took me six years. And when I started on the course, you're right, it'd been a long time since I'd taken my WSET. So my knowledge was actually not great. I had to work very hard to reach the standard that you needed to be at. But it was also the best, most worthwhile thing I've done in terms of developing my career for sure. Okay, so no, I'm worried because we start to interview several master of wine and I've been them around me so. Yeah, it's going to be you next. You should sign up for sure. Because six years is a long commitment and it's real out. But one day maybe probably love to, but it's a lot of things to discover. Can you tell us a bit more? So basically myself, wine, you need to know everything about how wine is produced in the world. Yeah. And that's a key point what you just said around the world. You need to be able to talk about all the areas of wine on a global scale. So you have a paper on viticulture and you need to reference viticulture in very classic regions like Bordeaux, but also in emerging regions like Hebe in China or South Africa or anywhere. And to have that global perspective is very important. But you also need to have the same global perspective for wine making, for business, for contemporary issues, which means anything that is sort of current, like a lot of people right now they're talking about drinking in moderation and avoiding alcohol. And so having a good understanding of all of those things is really vital to being able to pass the exams. So it's different here. A lot of work and very large commitment before I'm following that. And so for you, you said you changed a lot of things in your career. I did. Yeah. It was, firstly it gave me the confidence because when you get that degree, you're in a very small group of people globally and you're in a really great network. So not only do you get great opportunities for work, but you can say to people, look, you know, I have the credibility. I've been through this process. I've spent the time working on it and it really, you know, it's worth something. So you're able to, you know, charge more, you know, frankly, you, you were able to increase your earnings because you have a value that is intrinsic to the MW. So yeah, in terms of my career progression, when I passed that exam, it really opened up a big new opportunity. You talked about a hobby just before. I think it's a good transition to the wine we are tasting. Yeah. Hold different topic. But so we had the opportunity to just take a glass where we're calling this podcast and we had this wine. Yes. Which is a temperaneo by a producical chapter in verse is 2015 vintage and actually something I've, because I've been tasting a lot of Chinese wines recently and something I've really been pleased to find is that there are some good examples of how well these wines are maturing. And I think this tastes like a classic temperaneo with bottle age, you know, the question is, does it taste Chinese? I don't know. I mean, if I tasted this blind, I would never guess Chinese spontaneously. I think it has a classic characteristics of temperaneo and I think it has a sort of fruit ripeness that I would associate with non-European countries, but would I get to China? I have no idea. But it's great winemaking. It's beautifully balanced and it's developing well and yeah, so lovely wine. Very lovely. And you know, for us, we are discovering Chinese wines. We really wanted to go to Beijing, go in China, discover the displays. And what I noticed is that for a lot of wines, I think that they seem blind. I can tell if it's from China or somewhere else. Yeah. But I have never, of course, there are some wines I don't like, but most of the times, it's technically very, very well done. You know, like it's very, it's actually very good wines. Like it's a good tonne-prenu-no. It's what you would expect from Botolage 2015 tonne-prenu-no. It's absolutely nice. And so the, like, this step is granted, I think, for China and now they are producing very good wines and like to the international standard of wine. Another question is, can you do wines that express something different? Like, yes. You know, like having your own identity. Yeah. And I feel like this thought to want to do this, but it's the next step in every vineyard. It's like, first you want to master it, then you want to express something. So it's like art is to know because it was started by painting very conventional things and then you evolved so. Yeah. That's a good analogy there. And we are starting to see some of the best producers who are exploring their terroir and making smaller parcels, making micro-vinifications, trying to tell the story of their place, just a variety. And it takes a long time. I think there's a thing that is most frustrating about wine developing a wine identity is that the one thing you cannot control is time. And that means time in the bottle for it to mature, but also time for the vines to grow maturity. And also time for you to understand what you can do. A lot of the time when people are starting out in vineyards, they just try anything. You plant cabane and reasling next to each other. And then you figure out that one is successful and one you need to change and then you realize that your oak regime is too powerful. And you can only make wine once a year. And so I think it takes an entire lifetime before you really understand. And yeah, at least, right? And then you have hope that your kids will continue. So, I think that's also why I never wanted to be a wine maker. I don't have the patience to see that process through. Yeah, it's a bit of my worry as well. Burgundy took more than 1,000 years to look like what it looked like now. So I'm like, I won't have the opportunity to witness that from my living. But it's still a good moment to discover Chinese wine. Because if you had the opportunity to be there at the start of Burgundy, then it would have been fun to have like, you know, recordings and places you've been to. So that's fun. Is there anything we haven't talked about trying to look into that? I think the book we've covered it. Kyar is done. Yeah. Chinese wine we talked about it. Must have a point 67. We talked about it. Yeah. Since it's probably in Sun, we talked about it. Yes. So it's a we've covered plenty of aspects. But are there anything you're thinking about that we didn't cover? No, I think we've covered a lot there. And yeah, the book, the wine. Yeah, we've ticked all the boxes. I think it's okay. I have three last questions that are pretty traditional in this podcast. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation about wine? So obviously we recommend you wine in the foot of Asia. Thank you. I think it's a good question. Yes. Would you have any of us or books? You would be coming? Yeah. So I've just started reading a book called One in a Billion, which is a memoir of Sonnell Holland, MW, who's India's first master of wine. And she's also a friend. So I helped her with her studies and we've traveled together and we collaborate on different projects. And it's her story of how she came from a very humble background in India and worked her way up through the wine industry from nothing. And her story is really breathtaking. She, the likelihood of her achieving what she's achieved is so low. And she's worked so hard and achieved so much. She now is a huge social media presence. She has over a million followers on Instagram. She's really driving wine appreciation in India. And so it's a fascinating story. I think it's very interesting to anybody that loves wine. I think it's super interesting to anyone who's interested in Asia and how wine is working in Asia. But I also think it's a very human story. So I think for people that maybe don't even particularly drink wine very much, they're going to find something in there that is a really interesting reflection of one person just being very determined and very ambitious. Yeah. I will definitely read the book. I understood the title after you described it. Yeah, but yeah, when you are the only master of wine in a country of 1.3 billion, it's crazy. And yeah, I think that the willingness to go through the wine industry is really I guess it's not that present in India to like get out of your situation and achieve something. Yeah. Because you can be like, okay, maybe automotive industry is a bit more likely for you to you know, have a certain range of income. But wine industry is way more, I guess, unsure in India. So in any case, I'd be glad to read the book. Do you have a recent wine tasting that you loved? Yeah, it was a really good wine tasting and the wines were really good. And the reason I loved it actually was because of the conversation. This comes back to almost what we were saying at the beginning. So the producer is called 100 Hills. They're in Oxfordshire in England and they make great English sparkling wine. I'd never met the owner before and I didn't really know the brand. And we tasted the wines and the wines were very good and we went around the vineyard and it's very beautiful, which you know happens a lot, you know, if you're lucky. Yeah, you get to visit these places and they're all great. What I really enjoyed is when we sat down and we talked about the business side and we talked about the reality of branding and profit margins and marketing support and distribution. And so many producers really don't understand how the reality works in the wine industry. So this was a conversation that was very honest. It was really useful for me to hear it from a producer's perspective. And so I very much valued that. And like I said, of course the wines were fantastic. So a range of wines with some with very long lease age, some blonde and while some blonde and blonde. So it was good to see, you know, he was making these very different expressions. But they were all there for good commercial reasons. You know, they all had a route to market. They all existed not just because they were great wines, but because they're a good business. It's a first thank you for the recommendation. We're definitely trying to find some bottles. And it's also something our witness in China during the tasting we had. The estate had a blonde an oar. So still wine but blonde an oar. Okay. We're like, oh, you so you always wanted to do blonde an oar and I think they were like, no, but the demand right now for white wine is greater and we don't have time to plant. Yeah. So we just do the wine making in blonde an oar and then it's okay. And it's fascinating because I think it's definitely not the type of discussions I would have in France with someone producing blonde an oar. You know, it would be like, no, it's deeply rooted in the history of my family and whatever. And these guys were super pragmatic. They were like, you know, markets want white wine. This is a way for me to offer white wine. I really see. So. Well, I'll tell you one more tasting actually that I had recently that was very interesting. For similar reasons was the shardonnay from Flur de Boua in La Landa, Pomerale. And it's classified as just a van, in fact, no, it's not a van de France. It's a van de Péder, Atlanteque. And it's the first shardonnay from Bordeaux I ever tasted. And it's good, you know, it's great. It tastes like a good village level burgundy. And the fact that, you know, they're trying this new variety for Bordeaux and this new approach, selling a white wine that is non-native to Bordeaux region is, I think, a great innovation, especially for France. You know, it's a big risk doing something like that. But it's been successful. they were saying that they have three hectares right now but they're going to be top-grafting some of their I think over to Shardani because they want to increase the sales of their white wine. So that's a big change. And you know, when they're making good wine and if they have demand for it, then that's a great idea. Definitely. Is it a, so it's Flodderbohr? Flodderbohr. Yeah. So we'll also try to find this. We have good connections in Bordeaux now. So we'll try to find this. Thank you very much for all this Richard. Last question is, who is the next person I should interview? Well, this is a very aposite moment because I was just having lunch with him. Eddie McDougall is a Australian wine maker, entrepreneur, founder of the win signature China wine awards, who we've worked with at 67-poundl. He's just launched a range of his own wines called E.J. McDougall, which are Australian. There's a Muglet River Shardani, and a Maclamvel, Shirazan, Grenassian, so on. And he has got such a good balanced perspective of the wine industry. It's really interesting to talk to him because he understands production. He understands marketing, distribution. He understands retail. And he was also early in his career. He had a TV show. So he was very early media personality, where he was traveling around the world. It was called the Flying Wine Maker, and giving these wine advice. He's also just such a lovely genuine guy. He's got a fascinating story, and I think he'd be a good person to talk to. Absolutely. Thank you very much for this recommendation. We'll try to catch him. If he's in Hong Kong, we'll definitely try to catch him in the next few days. Richard, thank you very much for all this. It was a real nice conversation. Thank you very much for opening up a bunch of career. And what you did, so far, can't wait to do the next episode in 20 years. Who knows where we're going to be by then. But yeah, it would be my pleasure. What I'm sure is that it was a very nice moment for me. I hope that you guys enjoyed this moment as well. If you enjoyed it, please share it to at least two person. Send it to email. What's up? I don't know what Instagram whatever. Richard, thanks again, and see you next time. Bye, pleasure. Thanks, Antoine. Perfect. Move it. [BLANK_AUDIO]