#101 - David He: Founder of Wine App

All right, hi David. Hello. Thank you very much for not for having us, but for welcoming us or for making sure that we hear my pleasure. The story behind that is that we went to a wine tasting in Shanghai last week. Yes, that's right. That's right. We were roasting. And we met each other and actually it's Charles from Long Dai who introduced each other. And it told me in the wine industry in China, there is God and then there is David. No, no, that's not you. So you need to talk to him. And so we took a coffee the day after. Yeah. After and yes, here we are. We'll definitely talk about a lot of things. Okay. Definitely about Chinese wines. Sure. How about what you do? But first, can you introduce yourself? So my name is David, the founder and the CEO of Wineapp. Wineapp is a platform, a ecosystem around wine. So we do have offline experiences, restaurants, hotels, as well as online experience, such as e-commerce platform mini program. Yeah. Yeah, we'll deep dive into this in the interview. But what was very impressive for me when we met is that you're not just doing wine e-commerce. You do like B2B, events, hotels, restaurants. That's right. Yeah. I think most of my audiences are European or Western. So they never heard about wineapp. Yes. I guess. So very little. Yeah. And when we came here and we saw every, every different things that you're doing for us is very impressive. Yeah. Well, there's still a lot we need to do. We do cover quite a bit. So we have three business segments. We have a clear online, which goes across from different e-commerce to mini program to apps, as well as offline. You know, offline we do have. We have some glasses coming for us. Okay. So in terms of offline, which I mentioned, hotels, restaurant bars, for instance. But we also have a very interesting B2B segment, where we service a lot of embassies, companies, including airlines as well, servicing their wine portfolio. Not from a distributed perspective, but more for our wine consultant perspective, where we don't just sell wines, but we do the pairing for our particular online in China, called Junya Online. We'll review their online flight manual to pair the wine to go with it. So it's a little bit more interesting and sophisticated. And customers love it. I think it makes a huge difference. We also do wine tourism, where we take VIP customers to the likes of Long Dai, Rong, Awake, where normally they don't get access to. So we do wine tour on the quarterly basis for our VIP customers. And what's really new, I think you will announce. We will announce next week that we've just got a piece of land and we're going to start plantation in Yunnan. So in altitude, that's about 3,000 square meters. It's a lot of different projects. And what's good is that it really encompass the life of wine lover. You can basically do everything. So what we want to do as a wine lover, you have many occasions that you need wine. You need to take your girlfriend out for our occasion. We have a French restaurant and you may need to entertain some government officials. We have a more serious Chinese restaurant with private rooms. At the same time, you want to go a holiday. We have a resort. And sometimes you just want to order a bottle which delivers to your door within 30 minutes. We do that as well. All comes around the ecosystem of wine lovers. So before going too deep into wine, I definitely have plenty of questions. But how did you start your wine journey? Good question. I was born in China. I went to London when I was 13, 14 years old. I lived there for almost 20 years. Through my journey in the UK, kind of opened up my interest for wine, started with five pounds of bottle from Tesco as the, and then slowly getting more sophisticated. Because the nature of my work, I was an investment banker, I was a trader, and then I was working consulting industry. I met a lot of wine lovers. And that's how I got into it. So just like drinking nice bottles on the table. And you're like, this thing is good maybe. Maybe one day I can do something about it. So that's really kind of planted the seat in my heart. And so then you left consulting in Europe a few years ago. So it's a bit of long story. I started with a investment banking. Then I went to a consultancy company. I ended up in a list of companies where we were able to list the company and talk to IPO. That's where I made my first basket. And then I feel I actually have the resources to start something I really love. And that's when I started Wineapp. It's an amazing transition from a consultancy and financial services to wine. The daily life must be almost as busy, but maybe a bit more exciting in some ways. So you decide to create Wineapp. Do you go through a first, like in entrepreneurship, we often talk about minimum viable product. For you must have been sending your first boat or something like that. Or do you image at the start, we've we tried to up. So it's an interesting journey. When we started in China, we launched the offline bar first. There originally there wasn't there wasn't app or there wasn't a mini program. Oh, I wanted was to have a nice place in Shanghai to serve reasonably priced wines and a large portfolio. At times back in 2018, 2019, I often felt I got ripped off every time I go to restaurant. The wines, the fine wines are priced very high price. So I just want to have a little place to service my friends, my family, I have a place for ourself. We opened the restaurant around the end before the end of 2019. And COVID hit us from the first of January 2020. Yeah, it's a perfect timing for opening the restaurant. And you know, since we got the name, why app we started launching the app with the philosophy and thinking behind we want to deliver wines to our wine lovers 24/7 anywhere you like within 30 minutes. We want to have huge selection. So we launched the app with 400 SKUs covering the entire Shanghai delivering 400 SKUs within 45 minutes. And I'm not sure if people listening or watching this can realize the size of Shanghai. But it's actually like I think it's 20 million inhabitants. So roughly about 25 million. So it's almost half a friend in one city. So it's massive. And like delivering both our wine in 30 minutes is already a tenant. Yes, yes. I mean, we do have many many warehouses as well as our restaurants as our warehouse. So we are able to do the infrastructure in China, particularly in Shanghai are very well-thought out. And which is why I think give us not only the technology but actually the ability to deliver throughout the day. So you the other part also is what was interesting when we had the first conversation is that China has been for a long time importing market of wine. I think it's still the case. I think China is still consuming more imported wine than locally made wine for now. What you explained to me is that this importation creates a structure with a lot of intermediaries making the wine more and more expensive and potentially more and more rare as well because it's hard to find one person with a full selection. And you want it to break that and be the one intermediate between wineries in the wine world and the consumer. So what we really wanted to do, I mean, in the beginning there was no such big story. It was purely me wanting to buy a bunch of wine and share it with my friends. But the concept from seller to customer, it's a concept that we slowly developed. We have a lot of relationship. France in Italy, we were able to buy directly from wineries and distribute them in China. But at the same time, a lot of wineries do have agencies and so distribution signed up. So we have to work with distributors with no other choice. Through all the time, we know Now, discovered there's a trend of Chinese wine, so we very quickly set up the ecosystem around that, bring everyone into the same platform, serving the customers with the new trend. Yeah. So let's get into the new trend of Chinese wines. For us, it's very new because it's been one week that we've had our first taste of Chinese wines. Finally. How did you first, how did you notice this trend and how would you describe the recent evolution of Chinese wines? Wow. Very big question. You know, as a child who was born in China, we, I still remember the first sip of wine I had was mixed with Coca-Cola. It's my genuine memory of wine from my young age to today where people know much more than me. I feel the customers in China about the wine. So that's kind of the revolution. I came back in 2018 to China from London after living for almost 20 years. I felt that was really the beginning. I went to Ningxia. I went to Yunnan. I saw some phenomenal and very professionally done wineries and the farmers winemakers. It kind of sparked the interest in me to try and to explore more. Very slowly, I discovered there are actually a lot more than what I read from outside of China because I lived in the London. I never here try and I actually mix wine or good wine. But after I set my foot in there, I discovered many interesting things. I often believe local farmers to harm makes a huge difference. In the very beginning, the very beginning stage and in the early development of Chinese wineries, they are trying to copy Bodo. They are trying to copy Burgundy because they felt if someone makes a comment, this tastes like Bodo wine, it actually means a good thing. That means my standard is up there. Until today, farmers winemakers are very confident saying, can you taste sandong flavor in there? Does this represent where we are trying to make a sandong region in plainly region? I think that is the huge trend and observation I've discovered that people are confident enough to set standard themselves within their knowledge and represent truly what they make. It's funny that you said that because we are distressing in the intro. That was the last week. And after this tasting, Marin and I took a few moments to write what we wanted to remember for our observations. And one of the observations that we wrote is that we see a shift or a difference between some estates where you have some that still have Bodo blend and this is how they describe their wine. This is a Bodo blend. So you have an external reference to it. And you see others and probably more and more that are more like, yeah, we used to do this. But now we've changed and we use actually this great variety and this great variety because it's better for where we are in the style of wines that we want. And so you really see what we wrote and what we discussed was the quest for authenticity in the wine. And so I 100% agree with you on, I think it's something that is coming. It's the revelation of the place, it's a wine making place and it doesn't as making like other regions. Absolutely. I mean, I even come across there are wineries beginning to experiment wines with barrels that are made from China. So barrels come in from Chambai Sound, which is the northern part of China. Almost has a very Zen flavor. Really, a truly representation of China. And they are playing around this thing. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's also something we were discussing one day. I was like, you know, maybe we should start a barrel company in China because I think we have things to do in barrels like you guys must have beautiful forest and woods very -Yes, that's right. Design for it. So maybe wine up can do. -Can do well. -Well, maybe one day. -Yeah. -So you've been in London, you've traveled in Europe as well in your discoveries of wine. What are the main differences between wines in China, like in the, you know, more in the estate and in the making, in the way of doing versus what you've seen in the Western world? As a Chinese, I think it's fair for me to make a comment that Chinese are very learned. They are eager to learn, they want to learn the best thing, get the best technology. And that's probably what you see in 80% of the wineries. The machinery you see in Ruan Wei Kau, the barrel they use, they actually pick best of the best to begin with. So the foundation is really high. And in terms of grapes, varieties, and from the beginning, they just want to make a buddhubl and so typically plantation of cap and a lot. But slowly, they discovered, as you mentioned, oh, some of the great variety performed me much better locally. For example, Ma Zilan, Ying Ning Xia, it is the China grape. No grape performs better than Ma Zilan in Ying Xia. So slowly, you see a trend of what I'll say, copying the leading countries of wine making to absorbing the knowledge and beginning to create something truly that represents ourself. I think that's the difference we are seeing. Secondly, I think the entire wine industry in China is relatively young compared to Europe. I'm sure you. You probably don't see a bottle that's from 1990s or you never see a bottle from 1980s, for instance. So we haven't seen the potentials from the Asian in China yet. And I think that's probably going to be the most interesting thing going forward. We see some of the best wine. I mean, Long Day released in 2016, so I'm going to maintain as the first vintage. Until today is not even 10 years. But if you go to Bodo, you can pick so many wineries that have 20 years vintage, 30 years vintage. I think we are yet to see the potentials of aging. And that's something I'm really looking forward to see and taste it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly the same for me. I'm super curious of what will happen in the next 10 years. What impresses me as well in differences is the hospitality infrastructure. But what we thought is actually in Europe, we tended to first have vineyards. And then we're like, okay, maybe people want to come and you know, after a few centuries, we realized that maybe it's nice to have a few rooms to welcome people and you still need to find them. And like the level of infrastructure is very viable estate to estate. Whereas in China, all what we've seen, like in your event, you know, they had post-alcards of future estate. And every time I was looking at, yeah, I was like, no way this is that big or this is because the infrastructure just massive. That's right. I think people in this wine industry, at least in China, are true lovers of wine. No wine is here to make money. That's definitely not their first intention. That's because the passion of making wine, the passion of, you know, making something represents China and the true love of wine. I think only that can make such investment like here. It's not rational investment from investment banking perspective. But they are making an investment for 20 years, 30 years for their next generations. And I think that's the difference. You know, we have a joke about that. Do you know how to be rich in wine? You first need to be very rich. That's true. Basically, you're losing money at most of the time. What you, maybe let's end on the things I wrote during the tasting, let me check. Yeah, there was one thing I wanted to talk with you about. it will be a good transition from for the next question I have after that, is that during this tasting, we've seen a lot of different things in the same estate. And I think I actually run away cow, is a good example because the, like one estate can do, Cabernet Sauvignon, very straight, like very classic, then they can have a few others that are a bit different, sometimes more classic, sometimes more natural, but like, you know, different wines and a lot. And then they will do some just funky stuff, like cider or a pethnate or whatever. And it's always in the same estate, they have just plenty of offers. And for me, it's a big difference because usually in France, we say, "No, no, I'm a first high-growth from Bordeaux, no way I'm doing a side-erre." - So I give you a little insight. I think that it's because the reason of the wineazure is pretty young. They actually then know what's best to grow in that particular land yet. For instance, Long Dai is making a lot of experiment every year they're expanding. But until you plant something, you do not know what's best for that piece of land. So I think when you go tomorrow, you actually try a rosé from Lafitte, from Long Dai, and that you'll never experience. But it's an experiment piece of land. They have the great, they wanna make something different, they can do it. But I think this will change over time, including Ron Waker. They'll slowly narrow down exactly, they know which piece of land is best for which great varieties. And that's when the real consistency and production starts. - Yeah, absolutely. When you have a 10 or even 20 years, it's not enough to narrow you first need to try for your things. It's a perfect transition with the next question I plan. Which is something very interesting that you told me when you met was that actually your past as a consultant sometimes comes back in what you do. And you take all the data that you have about consumer preferences, and then you're able to design one experience or basically just one. That's especially tailored for these consumers. - Yes. So there's the taste related AI behind it. And there's also algorithm driven AI behind it. We do track from every customer of ours from the first day they purchase to the older front yesterday. So we can very quickly analyze what the customer has had since they joined my AI, whether they older online or they eat at my restaurants or what they have older in my hotel resort at night. So we know very clearly what they prefer, what they like, which great varieties. And then we do understand the customer profile in terms of how much money do they stand on. And we use AI to drive up the ticket sales and bought those sales even further. - In the wine that you designed, you and I think you showed me a bottle of red. - We did three private labels. So I'm not gonna name the name of which winery, but we actually shorten the time in the barrel because we feel sometimes the wines can be overwhelming if really is too much time in the barrel. Our customers are younger generation, they like more fresh. So we made a change and the result was phenomenal. It was actually shown to be more tailored for what we need. I'm not saying this is the best wine, but this is the wine we can sell and this is the wine where my customers love. - Yeah, and it's probably a good wine for casual dinner. We're friends, like the one that you would consume the most. - Yeah. - Usually we separate wine in two categories. There is wine from demand and wine from offer. And so wine from demand is basically like you are very well known estate in Burgundy and whatever you do, you will sell because you know it's very specific procedures, whatever you will sell at high price. And then there is wine from offer, which is actually the hardest to do because it must be not too expensive, it must be in a clear bracket of price. And it tends to decrease in sales. - That's right, yeah. - Because people tend to consume less wine, younger generation, they say younger generation consume less wine and stuff. And you basically kind of solve this because all this excess production in one or four could be solved with your take. - Yes, yes and no. We can solve a lot of things. We can solve what people like in different parts of Shanghai, for instance, to the accuracy of we fund people in pudong drinks more white than the people in kushi. Interesting stats, whether that's useful for distribution, I don't know, but it's definitely all the data that we tracked can be used for some sort of commercial use. - Even for your logistics. - Absolutely, can be. - It's easier. - Let's talk about the resort that you're opening. - Okay. - Because it's a massive project, you show there some pictures. - It's amazing. - Yeah. - Yeah. Where do I begin? It was, wow, it wasn't planned, planned. I never wanted a hotel. I never wanted to build a hotel. But things happened at the right time. We felt, I felt and the team felt, it was the right decision and probably the right time to try something new. So we want to, first of all, create a hotel resort for true wine lovers. What does that mean? We have wine sellers that can store up to 200,000 bottles. Secondly, what do we want to stock? What's our inventory looks like? Since Chinese wine is such a trend, we made the entire hotel as a Chinese wine offering hotel. So you, in the hotel, you see over 400 SKUs of Chinese wines, Chinese labels, representing different tahto'a, so that's something we also managed to do. And thirdly, I think often where I drink it, the occasion I drink it makes the difference in terms of how I enjoy the wine. And so we have this amazing place in Ermei, Mountain, 1,000 above sea level, hidden in the mountain. Every room comes with an onsen, with a spa. Having a glass wine is a dream. So we began to design, I run the concept of that. And now the hotel is built and it's up and running for almost two months. - Oh, it's already open running? - Yeah. - And it's, I think, thank God. It's so far almost 100 occupancy rate until the end of the year. So yeah, we have to visit. (laughing) - Yeah, I was gonna say, I will put a link in the description if you guys wanna come and prep yourself because the occupancy rate is super high. So try to come if you're, try to go there if you're in China. And so you recently had the opportunity to start your wine production. - Yeah. - Maybe not start, but like, see the start of the wine production. - Yeah, so the decision was made about a month ago, the company was formed this week. So really fresh, the team was assembled just over last week. Yeah, so we know where we are going to. We know which land we want. We know what grapes we are buying in the first few years and what we are planting. And we've got an amazing wine maker and a bunch of people who love wine from different backgrounds. There are people who are from the hotel industry, from the FMB industry, from the traditional wine industry, from entertainment industry as a movie director or joining my team to make this happen. So this will be exciting, yeah. - When we start shipping, you still have time because even. - Next month. - Okay. (laughing) - Okay, and you will do wine this year or you will wait a year. - We'll start making wine this year. - Okay. - But wines will not be in the market until probably end of next year, earliest. - Okay. - Yeah. - Super exciting project time in that. - In the United States, it's beautiful. - Absolutely beautiful. How do you manage this time? Because you're a super-spread between Shanghai and it's. - I didn't manage my time. The time manages me. (laughing) - Yeah. - It's a good one. It's a good one. - How do you see Chinese wines outside of China? - So we actually represent a lot of wine and reason China in terms of. distribution in the overseas market. We have a small operation in Singapore and we do supply-wise to Southeast Asia, Hong Kong, started in London as well in Europe. To be very honestly speaking, I think the Western world are giving China a good chance to start. They are very receptive. They are also very eager to see what can you make out of it. So the trend has been quite positive in terms of people buying. So our oldest are very positive. People are actually giving Chinese wine a try. Over the time, I think we'll see a real trend if this stabilizes. Because often, maybe they buy 10 bottles of wine, they'll find it well too. They like. So I'm also interested and curious to see what's going to happen after a year or two. Definitely now, there's a big push from the government and different associations pushing wine's fund China to the world. But whether the trend will continue, let's weigh and see. Coming from an external market, I think that you can influence, I think I never bought Italian wines. It's super close. I bought some of them when it was very great bottles and things I really love. Or maybe at the restaurant sometimes because it's a generous one. But for daily wines or not too expensive wines, things that you buy like that, I think you just buy from your home market. That's right. For overseas markets, I guess the most prestigious bottle. And even for you, it makes no sense to invest too much. Exactly. I think one difference, I'll point out, is Chinese do have a lot of populations and people around the world. For example, just the London market, we have over 2000 Chinese restaurants and distribution to that is pretty easy to have a Chinese wine representation on the menu. So I think that's the slight difference. We see in different markets, the first buyers are actually the Chinese in their market followed by the foreigners. So I think there's slight difference compared to, for example, France, you see way less French people in China compared to the amount of Chinese in France. So I think that contributes a sales difference. It's very true. And it's true for beers, for example. I always see back of Tintao and more than whatever. Exactly. In France, and I used to drink them when I go to Chinese restaurants. So that's true. The Jaspura is actually an interesting market. Do you think they are trying? Do you think they are coming as well? Have you seen Western people starting to come in China to taste and to discover? Not yet. Yes, definitely. So for instance, we sponsor our key event with the British Consulate every year, which is the King's celebration. I'll use to be the King's celebration. So every year they have a big celebration for the King's birthday. And this year we we bought the only sponsor for wine as well. And they were very specific to have Chinese wine as foreign embassy. And I think everyone wants to try what China can offer in terms of our calling in terms of winery. And I think they are very willing. Yeah. Yeah, it's a fun story. Actually, I never heard about the birthday of the King before Hong Kong. But in Hong Kong, it's also something that is important. That's right. Yeah. It was previously the British, so they still have some negacism. That's right. From it. So in the data that you have, you told me that you see difference in neighborhoods, for example, in terms of consumption. What are the trends of, do you see also general general trend in China? Like, for example, in Europe, we tend to say that yeah, younger people drink less wine. Yeah. And they prefer rosé and white. Yeah. Yeah. The older will buy expensive things. I'll give you something really interesting, which is the key data from my platform. 66% of our users are female. No way. So that's probably different from the West. Wine consumption 80% of them are between the age from 25 to 40. So younger generation. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's not hard to guess. But that's obviously a lot of trends. The demographics. So this stat is in France. I don't know if it's in Europe, but it's actually female are the most important buyers of wine in total. Because most of the wine is both at the supermarket. So it's a little bit sexist, what I'm saying. But it's basically the stat is more women, women tend to go to the supermarket more than men. So yeah. So the buy more wine. Yeah. But actually, if you look at the price of bottle, if you go above like 30 euros per bottle, then I think it's 80 or even 90% of the buyers are men. Okay. And that's interesting. That's crazy because it means that the daily wine is just bought by females. And then when it comes to you know, expensive things. And it's been so. So you see this cliche that is still living here. I give you another interesting and the man's a more loyal as well. So in my data shows man tend to stick to what they buy. So all my male users, they are very focused on the SKU selection. Rarely you see some users switch to buy using. Whereas the female users, they buy different bottles every week. They they you know, today they like this one tomorrow. They like another one. So also interesting point to to to see. But I don't know if it's the case for you, but like when I say one t-shirt that I like, I try it. And then that's it. I have the five same. So you know, it's a bit a little. That's right. Yeah. Okay. No, that's very interesting insights. And so for now, you're operating in so Shanghai. Yeah. Chenzhen. Yeah. And Chendo. And Chendo. Okay. And do you plan to to grow the operations or? Yes. Absolutely. I think COVID definitely have kind of slow us down. But now we are ready to expand again. We have two more restaurants coming up. One in Shanghai, one in Suzhou, a new city that we've never tried it. And we also have plans around online expansion as well. It's fun because you say that COVID slowed yours, but it's been like five years that you're operating five six years. Yeah. 10 restaurants. Yeah. Yeah. So we have, well, including the new one, we have 10 and we have resort and we have online. We do need to be. So the base is different. One thing I noted during your your tasting was the presence of sweet wines. A lot of it. Is it something you see on the on line up as well? And on the trend? It's more like a king of some estate and they do I do this on the side and happy to to face them. But actually it's probably one off trend. I say the Chinese still likes the red the most followed by the white. It's extremely difficult to sell champagne. Okay. Sweet wine is here or there. Maybe localize the market. Do you have some favors? But the overall trend that Chinese still prefer the red. And why your why champagne is hard to sell? I have no idea. I'm also figuring out. It's the toughest category we're trying to push out. If you look at China as a whole, there's hundreds of wineries. But you probably hear less than three. Oh, probably here less than five wineries that's sparkling or dedicated to do sparkling. And that's probably a reflection of the market. If you find anything bubble, they'll prefer beer. They find no reason why I need to drink wine with bubbles when I can just drink wine. So I think it kind of whether this will change I don't know. But I think it is stick to Chinese they feel wine is without bubble. Yeah. And maybe also the customs are a bit different because in Europe we tend to drink champagne for celebration. Maybe here you drink something else for celebration. That's a bit more rooted in the culture. Or they have Baichu, which is 53 degrees. Which is a bit stronger. Do you sell some? No, we don't. We're only for wine for great. Is there anything you want to talk about that we didn't talk about? I think we think pretty much covered all. I think yes, it's going to be exciting times to come in the next 10 years for Chinese wine, both from kind of making perspective as well as drinking perspective. Absolutely. And would you come to Europe? Yeah, I do visit Europe often, see different wineries, planning a trip, probably before the end of the year as well. And would you try to do. I mean, you're already selling wine actually there. So we do have relationship in France, Italy, and all about Europe. Okay. So if you're looking for Chinese wine in Europe, probably, contact David, it would definitely make sure you are at the world, or even elsewhere. Great, thank you very much for all these. David, it was amazing. Amazing discussion. I hope that you liked it. Yeah, it's fun as well. Good talk. I have three last questions that are traditional. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me? A book, interesting. I'm not trying to sell, but we publish once a year a Chinese catalogue, Chinese wine catalogue, maybe not a book. But if you are a newbie who doesn't know about Chinese wine, this year is the first year we publish with both Chinese and English. It has probably 81 reasons there with all the top SKUs that we have tasted, selected, and with the tasting notes. I think I've given you well. Yeah. So it's a great reference point. Yeah, it's a wine lover, especially wine lovers for China. Yeah. It's a very, very good wine book. And like for us, it's actually on the bedside table of Marin, because we are studying a bit. But it's good because it's split in regions. So it's amazing if you want to start to get to know how wine is made in China. It's very interesting. And also you did the tutorials that you made an amazing selection of. Yes. Wine. So it's already narrowed down to the wines that are like really high quality level. That's right. Yeah, you can go for it. Actually, I have a few exemplaries at home thanks to you. So I will, we'll make a competition, a small post on Instagram or whatever. And you would be able to, so we will send you one at home. So I have to note this. I have to remember this before publication. But if you're watching that, we'll put a link to our Instagram post. And you'll be able to win one book. What is a recent tasting that you love? Recent tasting. Well, the most recent was the event last week. I tasted about 200 different bottles. I think that was a good day. I probably can't remember 90%. But I thought over all China are making great progress on the white. I think the white performs much stronger. And probably, it doesn't need much aging. I think the brand still needs time to tell some great quality. But I want to see how even better they can become after 10 years. So that's last week. Yes. And it's an interesting link for another question. Sorry, but it's been what? Three years that you're organizing the event? Yes. Yeah. So have you seen, like, have you seen important differences between those three years in terms of attendance? In terms of attendance? The first year we had was more local lovers, local professions, people from the trade. The second year, there was a huge jump from first year to second year. First year was holding BFC one of our stores. We had about 21 degrees. And you know, you see people are interested, but there wasn't a huge crowd, probably just 200, 300 people. The second year, you give us a shock. We had more than 700, 800 people at one time. And we were like, oh, wow. Interest does increase over time. And we sense and felt there was definitely a more international feeling, whether from buyers, influences or governments. Until this year, it was a total phenomenal event where I didn't even expect so many people. I think people from across the industries and professions from all over the world, I see a huge increase. And this trend probably will continue. I feel. And this is only the third year. So I'm dying to see what happens after the year. Actually, when we looked at the event, so friend sent it to us. Like, if you have to come to discover Chinese wines, it is the events that you need to go to. It's once a year, but if you go there, you will have a beautiful perspective on that. Yes, that's right. And actually, it's pretty true because so it's thanks to these events we're here today. My means we chat is food of contact and conversation across China. So that's great. Last question, who is the next person I should interview? You should interview one of my great friend, Big Bro, Sebastian Basco. He is the movie director behind "Waking the Sleeping Great." Okay. Probably the most knowledgeable person as a foreigner in China. He spent a few years, I can't remember, it's two or three years, filming over 100 wineries in China, experiencing many seasons of harvesting and came up with the movie. And that he's probably a deep person. You should interview. We'll also try to put the link of the movie in the description if you want to rent it or buy it. I haven't watched the movie yet, but I absolutely have to do it. If you're flying to Hong Kong on a cassette Pacific, it's on the entertainment show as the top in the chart. It's good to know. We don't like cataties time, but maybe the next one will make sure to take a just for that. You see a lot of me in there. Thank you very much for all this David. Thank you for doing the infringement. I would say pass the CD like the the pass for us to do so that we're able to come here. It was an amazing discussion. I wish you a lot of success with a win-up, but I think you're thank you. You don't need my wishes because it's already a no no no no I need it. I need it all that time. But yeah, it's always good luck. So it's better. And yeah, if you guys want to discover Chinese wines, anything, go to Wine App. David, thanks again. Thank you. - Thank you, soon. Thank you.