#1 of How Software Becomes Driving – Johan Lundén – Software-Defined Vehicles & the Future of Commercial Mobility

Welcome to the BANCO Podcast. I'm your host Kailash and together with my colleagues, we bring you insight from R&D and industry leaders to inspire your career growth. Our goal is to share knowledge, highlight overlooked opportunities and explore the latest trends. Beyond podcasts, BANCO provides inter-reamment recruitment services, tech, finance, sales, markets and sustainability, connecting professionals with impactful roles. BANCO stands for, be all you can be. This episode is part of our latest series, How Software Becomes Driving. And in this episode, we will explore real-world transformations happening in the automotive industry, as vehicles evolve from hardware-driven machines to software-defined platforms. We dive into challenges, opportunities and critical shifts needed to build a more intelligent, connected and future-proof version of mobility. Today, I'm very excited to welcome U1 Lundian, CEO of Quattura. U1 is a true industry insider who has spent over 20 years shaping the future of mobility across powerhouses such as Scania, Tratan and Volvo Group. What makes U1 stand out isn't just his experience. It's his ability to connect technology, business and people and help bridge the innovation gap between startups and large corporations. Today, it's on a mission to help the industry navigate the shift to software-defined vehicles with clarity and purpose. Welcome to U1, fantastic to have you here. It's great to be here. Thank you for having us. We'll start off with some personal parts, so for somebody who doesn't know you, U1, tell me a bit more about you as a person. Okay, well, I guess starting off, I'm an engineer and a gear head at heart. Now, then, the proud and excited CEO of Quattura. I've grown up a broad, I've had the benefit of seeing a lot of different cultures and of course seeing a lot of technology evolve in that crossroads of culture and technology excitement being created. So I think two kids living here now in Gothenburg since the past five years have lived in Japan and Germany as a kid, as well as a grown-up. I truly thrive in international environments where technology and business meet. That's, I guess, how my career has led me to the point I am today. Lovely. How would you describe yourself if you only had three words? Well, I think curiosity is one that really stands out and has been sort of a theme throughout my life. I think that's gotten me into maybe trouble, but also a lot of interesting journeys in both personal and what's just a professional life. I think energetic is another one. I think is fairly descriptive of who I am. I think I'm very passionate about what I do and that that really brings out energy. If I'm not passionate, people will see that. I'm pretty easy to read, I think, when there's energy in the room, when there's passion in the room, I get excited as well. I think I'm a fairly calm and patient person, so I like to see people thrive in their environments. Not everyone is always in the right spot and that is an exciting thing as a leader to be able to find that right spot because everyone has their spot and will be able to thrive as long as they do. So I guess those are a few of the things that that signify who I am. What about when you're not working? Is there a work-life balance? Well, I think it's interesting. Work-life work is a very big part of life, so it's not a contradiction, right? But I think I have two young kids, so that's maybe a disclaimer to a lot of my own excitement around what would have been maybe golf or skiing is spent being the logistic service of weekends going to and from sports activities, but it's all great to see the kids grow and get excited among things that I'm interested in or that I can learn from. So I guess that's a bit of summing up I love doing woodworking, I love sort of you know, puttering around the house fixing things, I guess that's also part of the past time. Great. Okay, jumping into the probably most exciting term for today, SDV or software-defined vehicles, and that is a term that probably needs some explaining. Lacking of Wikipedia page and all, yeah, where does it come from and what does it mean? Well, I think I'm going to be super humble to the notion of saying I don't think I have the end all explanation to what an SDV is, there are a lot of notions out there. I think first and foremost, let's recognize that there's a lot of software and vehicles today. I think however many vehicles, particularly in the commercial vehicle industry, are the result of many iterations over time, so this, even though software controls a lot of things, it's also maybe a sensitive and volatile spot for many vehicles. A software-defined vehicle is one that ultimately can be improved over time, and I've simplified it in the notion of saying today, if you're a little bit harsh, I know some would maybe feel a little bit offended, but if you say today, the truck or the vehicle is at its best as it rolls off the production line, whereas if you will, the promise of a software-defined, truly software-defined vehicle, it would be in citation marks at its worst as it rolls off the line, meaning there's a promise there that it can improve continuously as it grows older, if you will, through the notions of improved software, through data, improved vehicle performance, and whatnot. Really cool. I really like the idea of changing from one place to the other in terms of how you present it, rolling off the line at its worst versus improving over time. Let's jump over to Kautura then. How do you pronounce it first and foremost, Paps? Kautura. Kautura. It's really the balance of core being the core of the vehicle that we represent in Kautura then Latin for future. It's the combined aspirations of what we're trying to do. Very nice. Beautiful. Enabling innovation and collaboration seems very important to you at Kautura. Could you give us an overview of what kind of collaboration you are targeting here? Well, I think there you need to appreciate what it is we're encompassing in Kautura. So the promise we make to our customers and to the market is that we will bring a full stack to the table, meaning both hardware as well as base software, APIs as an interface for our customers to build their applications on, including a tool chain. Now, for those who are well versed in the automotive industry, they would recognize that that's quite a massive undertaking, meaning that yes, we are a young company. We are a small company at that at this point. But even so, as we expect to grow quite dramatically, we would not be able to realistically encompass all of that, meaning we will need to and want to partner with a lot of skilled players out there that will bring their skin in the game, their competency to the table. And of course, should be rewarded for that as well, but that's sort of the model that we're building off of. Of course, there's a lot of what's a fundamental belief in Grain in that as well, that we believe that bringing different players, different walks of life together will create magic in terms of innovation that otherwise would have not maybe been as visible. And you're a joint venture, is that hard to say? Yep, that's very fair to say. It's accurate. So we are the brainchild of two of the biggest players in the industry, meaning Volvo and Daimler Trucks, so Volvo Group and Daimler Trucks. It's a 50/50 joint venture. We are a standalone, profiting loss center, meaning that we are a company that is not only catering to the needs of Volvo and Daimler, but also then any commercial vehicle player that is interested in a software-defined vehicle platform that they can build their competitive advantages on top of. Hmm. Okay. Quite big ambitions you have there. If you want to really make an impact on what I understand, quite conservative industry and of course an industry with a lot of pride, a lot of history and all that it goes into it. Yeah, and I mean that in itself is part of the excitement, right? That's one of the differences we want to bring to the table. I mean, seeing as I've been part of the industry for the better part of 25 years, I would not want to call myself conservative and I wouldn't want to be rude to my colleagues and former sort of peers as well, but I think it's a business to business enterprise, which means that there's a lot of what you say things riding on the product because a heavy duty truck is actually it's bought by logistics operators, etc. as their business. It has to deliver value every day and then you're going to get a little bit sort of you know, particular about making sure it will continuously do so. And I think if that's conservative or if that's just you know wise business sense, you'd be the judge, but I think sometimes maybe that's the result of being a little bit careful in terms of taking on new technology because if it is jeopardizing your ability to generate the income for your company, chances are you're going to be a bit careful. That said, of course, we're super excited of all the capabilities and all the vast benefits that a software defined world can bring to that industry. So that's where the excitement of innovating and bringing to life opportunities that are quite frankly not really available in the current structures. And looking at the homepage, Quattura describes itself as working on a standardized and open SDV platform and a dedicated truck operating system. Plus centralized high performance control, let's see centralized high performance control units capable of handling large amounts of data. A lot of words there. Can we break this down a little bit? So starting with standardized, what does standardized mean in the context here? Well, I think first and foremost, I mean, normally standard and the word standard is a little bit, it gives me a bit of shivers because that sounds almost stagnant and boring, if you will. But I think normally modularization is more exciting. But the standard part is really bringing to the industry a scaled ability to do what they would really want to do, meaning that the platform should benefit from common usage, common understanding of what the hardware should look like, what the base software should look like. And then for, of course, a standard shared across as many players as possible will bring that scale. So that's where the standard part comes into it. Any comments on the open part? Yeah, sure. So I mean, the two kind of feed off one another, if you will, because the standard, not only is it the standard sort of hardware in terms of high performance computers, it's a standard base software. And that in itself then will make sure that our customers can tap into APIs that will be common across many, which also then opens up the opportunity for third party players to design, innovate on that. And that's sort of the operating system, where that standard, when that's simple, then once again, you don't have to have unique solutions for only dime or Volvo that would not be possible otherwise. So that's another sort of enablement that we bring to the table. Okay, very cool. One of my favorite quotes is actually that's standing on giant shoulders. And I think it comes in quite handy here, because in software, it is a lot about collaboration. I think a lot of software development goes around sharing knowledge, and sharing whatever is already existing to some extent. You can build a lot more together than what you can by yourself. If you have libraries, if you have opportunities to share what has already been a wheel before. Yeah, and I mean, that's where the open part comes in as well, right, where if you allow that innovation to take place on an open platform, it will excel even more. Today, if you will, a lot of the OEMs would be spending a hard earned R&D money on base platforms that are merely enablers. And would then fall short of some of the spending they could otherwise do on truly customer value adding features that will benefit the industry, the company as a whole, right? So I think if you allow innovation to take place in a standardized platform, you can get a lot more, which is a customer value for the same money, if you will, better bang for the buck, if you will. Which is better for everybody. That's the intent. Okay, shifting over to the operating system then. What is the role of a truck operating system? And what kind of new capabilities doesn't enable? Well, I think first and foremost, it's building the bridge from the API layer down into the hardware and really sort of extracting the best of all of those capabilities. If you have an ill-devised operating system, you would probably not make as good use of the compute power that you would have in your hardware. So the operating system, if you will, is a necessity and is that bridge making it possible then to build effective and efficient solutions on top. The APIs that our customers are so excited about building their applications on. Because make no mistake, all of our customers will want to continue to be fierce competitors on the market, making sure that their unique features, their vehicles remain unique in their performance. But they should focus their energy on that rather than building the base. And the base is then the operating system. Yeah, I can imagine. As always, it's a hard balance to balance a competition and collaboration, isn't it? Well, yeah, but it's also, you know, if you ask each and every player, sort of bilaterally, they will give you a very crisp answer on very detailed notions all the way down into the hardware out of the conviction that all of that's necessary. And it is, to large extent, true. But by building a common OS that really extracts the best performance out of that full chain hardware-based software, we enable, which is a lot more excitement where it really matters. Of course, you need to be willing to commit to that base, both in terms of hardware and base software. The smartphone on wheels phrase is very compelling. What lessons from more software to find industry, such as smartphones, for example, do you believe could really apply to commercial vehicles? Yeah, the software, which is an iPhone on wheels, is a little bit, I like it and I dislike it. I like it in the notion that that is a very good, sort of visualization and understanding of how you how you can benefit from a common platform and then you can upload, download whatever app, whatever feature you're truly interested in. And there, of course, there's a lot of learnings in terms of how you make that marketplace attractive and available, but also then the ease of creating the solutions. Where I dislike it is the recognition that there's a very big difference between an iPhone and a truck. An iPhone, if you, for example, whatever your music app is not starting your favorite song when you wanted it to, or your streaming services is glitching for whatever reason. Your life will commence anyway. It's not the end of the world. However, in a truck, if the brakes don't work when you need them to, that's going to be a big problem. And that's where you need to be very weary of the distinction between the two. Because in an automotive sort of software-defined world, there's a functional safety aspects and a lot of the verification and validation that needs to take place to really be certain that this vehicle is going to behave every day of the week in twice on Sunday, because it cannot fail. And that's, you know, upfront and center for Coutura, but it's also upfront and center for all of our customers. And of course, a lot of the enablement that software-defined vehicles bring to the table is a lot of the capabilities of automated driving and which is a safety system. And here once again, the whole purpose of them is saving lives. And those are instances that are very difficult to sort of, you know, create and innovate around. But once you do, they bring profound value to the table. But then they need to deliver every single time. And that's a very important distinction. Which also puts even higher demands on how we design software, how we document it and how we build and verify it. But there's a lot of learnings in working with software and also recognizing that software in itself is a constantly evolving thing, material, if you will. And I think that's one of the changes that the industry is facing. They need to embrace that truly. That software is not something that you design and then it's done. It's in constant motion. Then of course, once again, coming back to the functional safety and the very specific needs of automotive. When you do, which is a download, a version of your software, it needs to be solid every time. Yeah. That's very interesting. Is technical debt a big discussion for you and your clients? Not really. I mean, technical debt, you could expand on that. But I think it's easy to beat up on history. It's easy to beat up on legacy. But I think that would be wasted energy quite frankly because software is very prominent in vehicles today. Why? Because as vehicle technology has evolved, the ability to control injection systems on engines or infotainment systems, or for that matter, simpler functions as door locking devices or wipers or whatever, is much more what you say sophisticated when you use software. And of course, there's massive investment that goes into many of these. If you take the engine, for example, and fine tuning an engine, that's a lot of investment, which has been built around a certain ECO with a certain amount of software and hardware capabilities. And you don't want to replace that just for the sake of replacing it because that doesn't really add value. And it would render a lot of investment on your part to do so. So of course, over time, that has evolved. If there were any debt, you could say that I would rather say, each and every player is facing an exciting investment that they need to do into the future. And whenever you choose to do that, it will probably be fairly painful because you're going from where you are into a quite significantly different world, both in terms of how you work with the product and the software. But also then, of course, mere physical changes to a lot of the hardware in the vehicle and the logics of the vehicle. So it's really-- it's making that transition from Friday to Monday and doing that in a very seamless and smart manner. And there's many ways of going about that, of course. But I think the debt notion has a bit of a negative cling to it. I think it's rather to say, OK, what is the investment we need to make into the future to really capture all the possibilities? Got it. And moving to software-defined vehicles isn't just a technical shift. What organizational changes must an OEM or supplier make to succeed here? Well, I think there's a few different notions of it. And for me, it all centers around what I was alluding to earlier, the notion of software and how it is in its very essence, very different to hardware design, once again, constantly evolving. So I think that's the first investment you need to make as an OEM to recognize that difference. That in itself-- then we'll have trickle effects on a lot of different pieces. It would probably normally start in the R&D department, where you need to make changes on how you drive project management, how you drive strategizing and how you devise roadmaps. But then it will also trickle into the sales organizations, into the aftermarket organizations, into your operations or your production system, how it is designed to receive all of this software and the constant evolution of that software, how your sales organization captures all the value that this can be putting up, because quite frankly, it's a mouthful to keep up with, right? As a salesman to be able to be updated with all the benefits and all the features that are enabled maybe constantly with that software, that requires a fairly different mindset shift. And equally so, the mere practicalities of a mechanic or a aftermarket support organization, updating, improving, servicing a software-defined vehicle will look slightly different. Should be, like many other things, much more efficient, by the way. So would it be fair to say that you think that it's almost equally as much a change in culture and processes and skills that people need to have around the organization beyond the technical aspects as the technical side? Well, you know, I guess that's a really difficult notion in terms of what would be the absolute, but yeah, I mean, you know, the really big change, the big shift is in the mindset and in how you approach it. The technology, if you will, is largely there. It will, of course, improve dramatically over time and enabled by AI. That will only go faster and faster. But the technology is visible to us. It's in many shapes or forms in different industries if you will available. So I think really the big change is all of that structure and mindset around it that will maybe enable the embracement quicker or slower. It depends. Okay. For commercial vehicles specifically, versus, for example, passenger cars, what are the unique business and operational constraints that make the transition difficult or different? Well, I think some of it is what I was alluding to earlier where I mean, the very big difference between a passenger car and a commercial vehicle is the fact that the commercial vehicle is the livelihood of whoever owns it. Meaning you've acquired that truck with a very clear business intent. And if it's not working, it's not generating money for you. And that's obviously not good for any business, right? So that sets them apart. That fact in itself then renders the notion that a commercial vehicle is operating, well, if it could, 24/7, then of course, driver availability, etc. But it will be pounding a lot of miles every day, every week, every month, every year. And that of course puts a very different requirement on the technology and the stability of the technology and the availability of it. So I think those notions are different. That in, of course, renders very different technical needs. I mean, a truck is not, yeah, if I'm a little bit blunt to the passenger cars, it's to say a passenger car is a people transport device that can hold anywhere from two to six, eight people and take them from eight to be. A truck, there can be so many different trucks. You can have a four by two tractor for European long haul, for general cargo, you can have a cement truck, you can have a garbage truck, you can have a tipper truck, you can have an abundance of different kind of solutions. And all of these put fairly different requirements on the infrastructure of the truck. Also then, with a software defined world, we'll enable tremendous opportunity in fine tuning and optimizing the utilization, because the quicker you can turn around that garbage route, the more garbage you can bring into it or whatever your business is, the more likely your bottom line is going to look more attractive. And that's of course at the interest of many. So I think those are the things that set it apart, but that's where also, I guess, I've found myself devoting a lot of my career to the commercial vehicle industry, because it's so interesting, there's a very clear connection to the benefits and the rewards that some of these technical solutions bring. Okay. And on the word of practical advice and actions, what are some of the risks or undersired consequences that might come from different organizations trying to adopt but failing to adopt in a certain way to this and software defined way of working? Well, I'm usually the one to look at the opportunities rather than the risks. So let's see if I can shift that perspective a little bit. But I mean, I think one of the things that is sometimes forgotten and the unsung hero of the software defined movement is to say that in today's world, with the fairly distributed architecture I was referring to earlier, there's a lot of inbuilt vulnerability or volatility for the vehicle, meaning that if you need to update a Dormal Jewel or an Infotainment Unit, God forbid, you might actually impact the ECU of the engine or other chassis nodes. And then suddenly you have a vehicle off road on your hands, which is not what you want. The software defined world will mitigate a lot of that. It's not a guarantee, obviously, because there are no such things in the world. But that will make it a lot more stable and less susceptible to that regression and volatility. But I think if you will, the risks would be then in the failure to recognize how you as an organization, how you as a customer recognize the change you need to make in terms of what we talked about, the approach to software, but also how you can expect that constant motion of change. So if you're not aligned with your expectations, if you're not prepared for that, you might be disappointed, you might be frustrated, and you might obviously then take some wrong turns or make some ill-advised decisions. But at the end of the day, if you've embraced the notion of constantly evolving software, you should be well positioned to recognize the benefits. One thing you did mention was that there might be also a risk of going halfway, and I want to linger on that a little bit, because I think I can draw parallel to a lot of companies also wanting to adopt AI technology today, where you see a lot of pilots being undergone, a lot of investments are initiated, but then sometimes people don't really follow through, because the yield is not high enough on the first couple of projects or initiatives, or people just don't see how to make the change go through all the way in the entire organization. Is there anything to be learned from that kind of adoption and trending? Well, I think in terms of the software-defined vehicle trend in the commercial vehicle industry, it's too early to say, honestly, because there's, essentially, there's no real player out there that has a truly software-defined vehicle on the market. So I think the learnings are still to come. But I think, you know, if it's a problem or not, but there's a lot of opportunity that is sort of offered with the software-defined world. And chances are you would only tap into portions of it, unless you embrace it and involve your entire supply chain and your entire, which is a N2ND ecosystem, meaning, as I was talking about earlier, the sales organization need to be on board to truly leverage all the benefits. The aftermarket organization needs to be there. The production organization needs to be there. The R&D needs to be there. The supply chain and the partners that you're working with they also need to be on board with that. And then you will truly see all the leverage. If either of those parties are not involved, you will still enjoy benefits, but lesser so. And then, you know, you could maybe put a multiplication mark in between each of those stakeholders in an equation. And if either of them are zero, then chances are the whole thing will turn out zero. You have a problem. Yeah. I mean, it's a little bit dejected, right? But if they're not on board, it will not really. Then you have made that investment, but you might not, you know, really enjoy the true benefits of it. Got it. Any idea of how to cope with the way to start or any meaningful metrics and milestones? Again, it's very early to say, but if you work to make a place. Yeah, but I think coming back to some of the comments I made, I think first and foremost, the "Unsung Hero" of just, you know, stable software releases where you can be very sort of consistent and predictable as you do that. That in itself, it's probably a measurement that many have had avoided or it's difficult to make, but you know, to see how many projects and software releases have led to regression or the lack of ability to actually push the truck out and you've had to do returns, right? If you could measure that, I think you would see some true benefits. Then, of course, with a software defined world, you can also tap into too much larger extent the capabilities of AI. And with that, of course, you should be able to see efficiency gains, fairly significant ones on both the R&D capabilities, but also if you saw the performance of the vehicles, i.e., the generation of data that is created through software defineness will give you a lot of value in tuning and optimizing your vehicle and your product. And there, of course, you should see, I mean, ultimately then, at your bottom line, then it's always tricky to make the true correlation that was this change that ultimately led to that euro in my bottom line. But that is for sure the aspiration, particularly then, in that open, which is a reenough for innovation of the world. of customer value features into the truck and into your tool chain and into your entire ecosystem. There is a multitude of opportunity of generating income for you as a company, but also value for your customer and improved logistics and improved energy efficiency on the vehicle. Or for that matter, of course, saved lives in terms of automated driving and safety systems. Another question struck me. Perhaps it's a bit. Of course, I already know the answer from one perspective. Is there anybody else out there doing something similar? Anyone else in perhaps a car industry or other industries trying to do what Coutura is doing for the commercial vehicles? I think. And obviously, I'm a little bit subjective here, but no, but Jokes aside, what we're doing from Coutura is quite unique in the scope that we're encompassing. So all the way from hardware, all the way up to API layer, and that we would take the responsibility towards our customers for that. That is in nuances fairly unknown today. Normally, then, if there will be, of course, OEMs that have taken the full stack upon themselves and building products out there, both in passenger cars as well as consumer goods as such. But I think in terms of a supplier or a partner, I've yet to see in anyone encompass the same scope that Coutura is doing. But I make that statement with great humility in the notion that it tremendously, which is evolving industry, the pace is high. So who knows? Maybe as we speak, a company is created with similar intent. I don't know. But there's a lot of players out there dipping their toes into software-defined vehicles in terms of pieces of the stack and offers related to the stack. But no one has truly, as far as we've been able to see, taken the full scope the way Coutura is doing. I think it's really cool to see somebody take on that ambitious goals and to see where that leads, so to say. Going for the vision of future outlooks, looking ahead five to ten years, what will a truly mature, software-defined commercial vehicle ecosystem look like in your idea? Well, it will be coming back to the notion of a vehicle that is constantly being improved as it has commenced its life in the hands of its owner. Anything from features that will improve the quality of life for the driver as they spend time in the vehicle to the safety on the roads in terms of mitigated accidents and fatalities. But it will also enable high efficiency in logistics. Today, on average, a truck is only half laden if you look at the duration of a full year. It's 50, 60 percent loaded. A large portion of its life is spent unloaded, which is a waste. So there's a lot to be done there. Let's face it, 100 percent it will never reach. But there's a lot of untapped potential there. Of course, I think in the software-defined world, the software-definedness itself will not be the enable for sustainability solutions such as electrical drive lines or for that matter hydrogen drive lines. But it will be an ability to fine tune those over time in a much more granular and specific way. Both of those electrical drive lines as well as fuel cell or for that matter hydrogen ICE trucks are a new, which is a beast in terms of optimizing. There's a new way of doing it. Their software plays a profound role. That we should see the true benefits of in a software-defined world. With that and all the data that it will generate that in itself is then of course the enabler for that continuous honing and improving of its performance. Very interesting. It's going to be an exciting time for sure. And moving deeper into your journey, you probably met a lot of different and exciting people over the years. How has this shaped you and what kind of tools will take away? Have you brought with you from that? Well, I think I've had the fortunate opportunity throughout my career to do a lot of different things. R&D strategy and business development, sales and aftermarket as well as strategic product planning and project management. And I think, and then I must argue also I've benefited from a lot of what you say, profound and smart leaders that I've been able to learn from. But I think the width of my experience has taught me a lot on what you say. The business values, the customer behaviors and needs. It's always so exciting to meet the truck drivers or the truck operators out there and really see their world and what truly makes their business tick. And there's a lot of interesting dialogue that you can have in terms of encouraging them to change ways and seeing then the pioneers of new things. Investing quite a lot of money in what you say, different solutions that they may have not seen themselves, but that I or my teams have been able to encourage them to do. And that has shaped a lot of the excitement that the profound notion of you can actually make an impact in every so small instances. You didn't mention smart leaders also. Have you had a mentor over the years? Somebody who has helped you? I don't think I've had a mentor in its true essence the way many would see it. But I've enjoyed being close to very, very skilled leaders and inspirational leaders. And I feel very fortunate to have done that. And I've had then the opportunity and the access to speaking to them and learning from them. I wouldn't call it a schoolbook example of mentorship, but it's for sure helped shape me and challenge me and how I lead. And if you had to give yourself one piece of advice from when you started your career, what would it be and why? Well, I guess it boils down to who your personality and who you are and what makes you tick. But one thing that's always sort of guided me is passion. If I'm passionate about what I do, I normally do it fairly well. And at least through that passion, I can power through good times as well as bad times. If you lose the passion, you might lose sight of the light in the end of the tunnel if things are tough, right? But as long as you have that conviction and that passion, normally you will always try through the hope of, I'll get there. I can see it because I believe it. I think if it's advice, I think that's sort of maybe then if you will believe in yourself, have faith, it'll get there. But it's also maybe then placing your faith in people because there's a profound notion of if you can share that passion, spread that passion, it's a bit contagious. So that will help people see the light if you don't. Yeah, great answer. Anything else beyond the passion that helps you to find motivation each day to keep on doing what you're doing? There's a lot of things, right? It's if you look at the product side of it, of course, it's all the fantastic things that I see your envision and I hear the team envision that the products can enable, right? Then I think it's of course seeing people. Seeing people grow, seeing them maybe step out of their comfort zone and overcoming whatever fear they may have had and see the benefits thereof. But also innovating, right? And normally that happens when great minds come together. There are of course those instances that enjoy the comfort of a quiet corner of their own and innovate as well. But it's particularly rewarding when you see teams come together and innovate together and maybe even be surprised of what they conceived of because they didn't really see it from get go. That's always exciting. For sure. What is the kind of thing that somebody has done for you? Kind of thing. I think if you look at from a career perspective, however strange it may sound, it can be some of those maybe tougher feedbacks that you've gotten of seed in this light or don't go down that road. At that very instance, it feels a bit offensive and almost harmful and painful. But some of those instances you recognize, "Ha, I learned a lot from that." That was really the kind of thing they could have done because the worst thing they could have done was just brush it over and say, "Well, good job, son." When it actually wasn't. So maybe that is ultimately the kind of thing. Then of course, rewards of all kinds of notions in the light of customers that are happy and share their praise. Of course, that's nice. But I think truly kind things are when you've been given true and honest feedback that you thrive from and you learn from. Very nice. Is there anything else that we have missed to talk about? Is there anything you come to mind? That comes to mind when you think of what you're doing right now, any challenges that you're facing next year, we're just about to finish off 2025. What's in a paper for 2026? I think we've covered a lot of ground. I think it's truly sort of a privilege to be involved in an adventure like Cortura, recognizing that we will be able to have a, I believe, a very profound impact on the entire industry. And the cool thing about our industry is that it is, if you will, the wheels of the world, meaning that you and I would not be able to enjoy milk with our morning cereal unless there was a truck involved. The world would quite frankly come to a grinding halt without them. So I think that truly is exciting, then recognizing that with the software to find world, we can tune that in a much, much more, which is a dedicated and specific manner. And through that, we can extract a lot more value than we're capable of today. And I think the profanity of the two most fiercest competitors coming together, building this venture and recognizing the value of that is also something that excites me because let's face it, that's one prerequisite that gives us a very unique position to achieve that goal because it's a big goal. It's a very sort of ambitious task. And without the backing of, well, almost roughly 50% of the commercial vehicle industry, at least in the Western world, that is a starting point that's very sort of significant. And quite frankly, without it, I think an attempt like this would be very difficult because it is also our founders and our owners, but also our first customers, I should say, because we are aiming to cater to any commercial vehicle manufacturer that is interested in a software-defined vehicle platform. But the fact that the Volvo and Daimler have come together to do this is something that's going to bring a lot of value to the entire industry if they're there to grab it. Yeah, absolutely. That's why I invited you to the pod because I think it's really, really cool not just to create this shared language, one platform to collaborate and to help the industry with all the challenges that they are already facing with, both the software and the hardware and what's not, what comes into a, what is it? I think a car is somewhere between 5,000 pieces when you look at it from different perspectives. A truck is probably even more. And as you mentioned, I think for a society as a whole, not just for the truck drivers, the trucker babes, but also for people who are living in a city in an urban area. You don't think about it every day, but there is a humongous amount of services and the products that go into the inflow in order to keep everything rolling. But then also the return flow, of course, and everything got to be transported. And the way that the world looks today is that a lot of those things are operated by commercial vehicles. So it's not just about any heavy duty industry out there in a mine or somewhere far off. It's really close to where people live in to Gothenburg, I think. Well, I mean, and that's why I'm so passionate about the industry. And I think, I introduced myself as a genuine gear head. And I think growing up, I was always destined to work on cars, I thought. And then, Fluke Turn of Events led me into the commercial vehicle industry, which I'm truly grateful for because it has sort of lit a fire and a spark in my mind and the passion that I talk about because it has such profound impact on daily lives. And I think that's at least for me, that's important to feel that what I do on a daily basis has that impact, that excites me. And that's also what helps you power through some of the tougher times, the darker points in whatever challenges you're facing. Of course. Yeah, Kutura, found it. This year, it's been incredible so far. I'm really excited to see how far you can take it over the next upcoming years. It's going to be exciting to follow you on what you do. Where can people follow your work and your colleagues work? Well, hey, I mean, we have a homepage, we have a LinkedIn site and as we grow bolder and bigger, we will share more and more. Maybe a pot even in the future. Hey, I'm warming up to it. In that case, many, many thanks for choosing to share and inspire both me and the listeners. And to all of you listening, you are the one who gives yourself the opportunity to reach your full potential. Sometimes the driving force is in a journey, sometimes in the results, and sometimes in something completely different. But never give up because you can do more than you think and we are here to inspire you and support you along the way. Create your future, reach your full potential and be all you can be. Thank you, you won. Thank you.