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Speaker 2Good evening, everybody, and welcome to the God Squad pod. I am the tattooed theologian, Dylan Naber-Cruz, joined, as always, by my. My wonderful co-host, December Rose. And we've got a really light-hearted, fun topic tonight that you're just going to love. It'll make everybody's heart sing and be happy. We're going to talk about the New Apostolic Reformation and Christian nationalism, as we so often do on the show. And our guest tonight is Dr. Matthew D. Taylor, who is a visiting scholar at the Center of Faith and Justice at Georgetown University. He's the author of The Violent Take It By Force and the forthcoming Defying Tyrant, a public-facing defying tyrants. He is a public-facing theologian and religious studies scholar who specializes in American Islam, Christian nationalism, and Christian extremism. He's the creator of two limited podcast series, American Unexceptionalism and Charismatic Revival Theory. He holds a PhD from Georgetown and an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary. Dr. Taylor, welcome to the God Squad pod, and thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be with you tonight.
Speaker 2Well, as I said, this is a nice, light-hearted topic. You know, no major implications or anything dangerous or unsettling about it at all. Oh, good. Our longtime listeners will get the joke there because we have talked about the NAR quite a bit on the show. But I've never done quite as deep a dive as I did with your book this week. And so we want to jump into talking about that. December, do you have any welcoming comments before we dive in?
Speaker 4I am just so happy that you accepted our invitation. This man has been all over the place, y'all. He was just on CNN with Jake Tapper. He was on the podcast. He's everywhere. Not only are we talking about his book that is already out, The Violent Takeover Force, he has a new book coming out, Defying Tyranny. Is that right?
Speaker 3Defying Tyrants. Defying
Speaker 4Tyrants, which is also by relation to Defying Tyranny. But Defying Tyrants is the name of the book. And I'm sure it's going to be just as amazing as The Violent Takeover Force. The reason why I reached out to this outstanding Dr. Matthew D. Taylor is because you were recognized from a strange place, a place you were not expecting, got an award for your book, The Violent Takeover Force. Can you tell us a little bit about that before we jump in? Because that's where I saw you. I saw you. I saw your book, and you were like, I'm kind of shocked that these folks recognize me, especially based on the content of my book. So just tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 3So we're going to get into academic nuances all over the place tonight. So the book won the book award from the NUMA Journal, NUMA spelled P-N-E-U-M-A as in like the spirit, which is the Journal of the Society for Pentecostal Society. So it was an honor made by the Society for Pentecostal Studies, which surprised me because, A, I'm not a member of the Society for Pentecostal Studies. I've never been to their conference. I hope I can go at some point. Sounds like a fun crowd. But also because I'm writing a book that I anticipated many Pentecostal and charismatic folks might find kind of offensive or at least a little dicey, right? Because I'm talking about the politics of charismatics and the way that Pentecostalism is used. And I'm talking about the way that Pentecostalism and charismaticism have become weaponized in the current environment by Donald Trump, by the MAGA movement, by some of the leaders within that world to build new forms of Christian nationalism, Christian supremacy, to propagandize Donald Trump. And so I was not exactly anticipating that there would be a group of Pentecostal scholars who would read my book and appreciate it and want to give it any kind of honor.
Speaker 2Wow. Yeah, after reading the book, that's. I can see why you would be surprised.
Speaker 4But, you know, contrary to popular belief these days, there are some people out there that actually appreciate the truth. There are some people out there that appreciate it. There's a lot of folks who don't appreciate it and will tell you that you did not see what you saw. You didn't hear what you heard. You didn't read what you read. But there's a lot of folks out there that do appreciate the truth. So congratulations on receiving that award. And thank you for accepting our invitation. And Dylan A. Cruz has done the faithful good God work of reading your entire book. So he has some questions for you. And then I have some questions for you, too.
Speaker 2Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you, Dr. Taylor, for joining us and for the book, because I think you did a really good job of making it accessible to a broader audience than just academics. And, you know, which is which is helpful because this is the kind of information that we try to on the show and through our writing and other media work, try to bring to as broad an audience as possible because it's it had the implications are so large. Oh, yeah. I just wanted to point that out. So people who are listening, don't be afraid to get the book, even though it's winning academic awards. It's very readable and chock full of incredibly important information. And lots and lots of names and concepts that I hadn't come across. So one of one of those is the the way that you delineate Christianity in America, the four quadrants, which I found to be very helpful because people do tend to lump lump it in, as you said, to mainline Protestants, evangelicals, black Protestants, charismatics, et cetera. And but there's so much more wiggle room there. So tell tell us about the four quadrants as our jumping off point and which quadrants you were focusing on in the book.
Speaker 3Yes, there are a lot of different ways of subdividing and categorizing American Christianity. I find most of them useful and helpful with different in different respects. But for the project of this book, I was really trying to focus in on a sector of American Christianity that is hard to delineate, hard to describe at times. And that sometimes flies under the radar. And so I offer a kind of way of thinking about American Christianity that's divided into four quadrants. And so if you think about it as kind of a standard grid, the two axes are is the movement or expression or church that we're talking about denominational? That's that's one kind of axis. And the other one is, are they charismatic? And just to fill that out a little bit. Right. So denominations are the ways that most Protestants. Historically have found to organize ourselves and you could kind of stretch and argue like the Roman Catholic Church kind of functions as a denomination. My Catholic friends don't like to be called a denomination. They're they're the Holy Mother Church. Right. And so they don't want to be called that. But it's functionally a denomination. Right. And then when we talk about charismatic in the Christian community, we're not using it in the generic sense that most people have probably heard of that word in terms of like, oh, this person has just a magnetic personality or they're very watchable. Right. They have they've risen. Right. No, we're using in the specific Christian sense, which is describing a Christian spirituality that's built around trying to access the supernatural dimensions of early Christianity. So Pentecostals are charismatic. But there's a whole range of other forms of charismatic belonging and belief. But these are these are the kind of Christians who speak in tongues, the kind of Christians who pray for miracles every day, the kind of Christians who participate in spiritual warfare. The. These sorts of practices that are associated with more supernatural dimensions of Christianity. So if you take those and kind of map them onto a grid, the first quadrant would be how most of us, I think, think of Christianity, right, denominational and not charismatic. And there you would put most mainline Protestants, a lot of the historically black church would fit in there, especially the stuff that kind of grew up before Pentecostalism. You put what I call kind of classical evangelicals, right, the Southern Baptists or the Presbyterian Church of America. The kind of older denominations. And then the second quadrant would be non denominational, but not charismatic. And these folks are often the kind of breakaway churches that formed in that kind of era of fundamentalism where where people are kind of prizing independence and autonomy. But they're not really influenced by charismatic teaching so much. The third quadrant is charismatic and denominational. And that's where you would put Pentecostalism. So Pentecostalism is a denominational movement. It's in the United States, it predominantly is. And so to say you're Pentecostal typically means you belong to a Pentecostal denomination. But you'd also put charismatic Catholics and a lot of people don't don't really think about charismatic Catholics. It's a huge growing movement around the world where this charismatic spirituality, a Pentecostal style spirituality is making real inroads in the Catholic Church, especially in South America and parts of Africa, but also in the US. I mean, Amy Coney Barrett, the Supreme Court justice, grew up in a charismatic Catholic community. That's her background. And then the fourth quadrant is where you have this mix of non-denominational and charismatic. And that's really where I focus on in this book, that that's the sector I'm trying to name and really kind of focus in on. And the other way to talk about that is it's the independent charismatic part of the church where you have that mix of autonomy built through non-denominationalism, but then coming into contact with these more charismatic practices.
Speaker 2Right. OK. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know that about Justice Barrett. I knew that she was hyper conservative, but I didn't know about the charismatic part. I knew that there were some charismatic expressions of Catholicism, but I mostly thought they were elsewhere in the global south and that sort of thing. So that was new information. But that's it's really helpful because in the book you you hone in on the independent charismatic Christians or quadrant four, as you call it. And that's where you find this expression, this kind of nebulous network that that sort of morphed into the new apostolic reformation, which exists, but it doesn't exist and that kind of thing. To hear Lance Wall now tell it, it's not a thing, it doesn't exist, these people who are making it up or, you know, demon spawn of Satan. And so forth. I think he's
Speaker 3called me that before, actually, if he
Speaker 2knew who I was, which he doesn't, I have written about him before. I'm sure he would use similar terminology, though I have a much better theological education and so do you than he does. That's one of those points of contention for me is that a lot of these guys that run around and ladies that run around in this particular movement. The ice of Jesus is off the charts. When they're doing when they're doing their thing, but I'm digressing. Talk to us a little bit about the history of that movement, sort of the latter rain and what the fivefold ministry is, because that that fivefold ministry piece is going to be really important to the growth and and sort of maturation of this of this movement.
Speaker 3Yeah, so I think maybe a place to start would be to think about the emergence of Pentecostalism in the beginning of the 20th century. I mean, iconically, Pentecostalism in the United States starts with the Azusa Street Revival in Los Angeles. Actually, there are strands of Pentecostalism that really started emerging around the year 1900 all over the world. And so it kind of crystallizes in the US around Azusa Street in 1906, 1907. But there's already emergent elements of Pentecostalism in Korea and Sweden kind of around the world at that time. And Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism is, again, built around this trying to recover the supernatural dimensions of early Christianity, right? They name it after the day of Pentecost, right? This moment where you have the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the first time that the apostles speak in tongues. And so Pentecostalism is especially focused on speaking in tongues, but also on this idea of reviving the global church through these kind of supernatural gifts. By about 40 years into Pentecostalism, though, things are starting to get starting to get a little stale. Some of the founders are dying off. And so there's a revival movement that emerges in Pentecostalism, actually in Saskatchewan, Canada, called the Latter Rain, sometimes the New Order of the Latter Rain. And this is a movement of folks that believe that they are receiving new words from God, receiving new prophetic messages from God. And they're very excited about this idea of a kind of global revival, an end times revival. And they also, as they're listening to these different prophecies, they get fixated on especially the book of Ephesians. And especially. And especially Ephesians chapter four. And in Ephesians chapter four, the author of Ephesians is listing a set of five different ministry types that Jesus has empowered the church to have. And they are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. And most of us, if you're like reading through the book of Ephesians, like, yep, those are all forms of leadership we have had in the church historically, right? But the Latter Rain, as they are reading and fixating on these passages, they say, wait, we have. We have pastors and teachers and evangelists. We don't have apostles and prophets right now. And they come to believe that God is going to renew the role of apostle and prophet in the 20th and 21st century. And that is going to be the catalyst for this revival in the church. And so they start calling this model five-fold ministry, right? Because there's five of these. But they're really focused on the apostles and prophets. Because they're like, we've got all the others. We need apostles and prophets again. And these ideas kind of percolate around. Now, the Latter Rain is controversial. And, like, the. The mainstream Pentecostal denominations at that point, they look at some of these Latter Rain ideas and say, uh-uh-uh. No, no, no. That's just wrong. The Assemblies of God, which is the largest Pentecostal denomination in America, they look at the Latter Rain. And they actually write an entire statement saying, no, there are no modern-day apostles and prophets. This is not in accord with church teaching. And they kick them out. So they kick them out. I think it's like 1951. They kick them out of the movement. And so the Latter Rain ideas kind of percolate out into this more non-denominational. Denominational space. This more charismatic space that's more amorphous, that is not as structured around the denominations. And, in fact, the Latter Rain kind of takes on a kind of anti-denominational bent. They think the denominations slow things down. And so those ideas are there. They're kind of saturating in this space of these non-denominational churches that are also immersed in charismatic practices. And it's in the 1990s. Well, it's really in the 1980s. You start to have some. Leaders in that world start to claim those titles. Start to say, I am one of these apostles. I am one of these prophets. And they start kind of trying to inhabit the identity of an apostle or a prophet. And it is out of that kind of juncture that the New Apostolic Reformation grows in the 1990s.
Speaker 2Yeah. The self-appointed part of that always rankles me as well. The idea that Lance Wallnau or. Or Angle or Paula White, Cain are appointing and anointing themselves. And, yeah, it just boggles my mind.
Speaker 4On that note, though, someone who's coming from. I have a very spiritually colorful background. So, you know, I was raised up as a Jehovah's Witness from a baby. And then at 14. I joined the Baptist Church. And that's where I was saved, as they want to call it. And baptized and all that good stuff. And then I was in the Pentecostal churches after that. And then I went from that to non-denominational. Okay. So, and then I pastored myself at non-denominational churches for 10 years. Now I'm just, like, deconstructed. And I'm like, you know, to hell with all y'all. But I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, though. I just went to an Episcopal church just last Sunday. It was a beautiful worship experience. My children. They enjoyed it. So, I do visit churches. And I do speak at churches. But what's your thought on this topic I'm on right now? We're apostles and prophets. You know, as someone who's coming from a spiritually diverse background, who have witnessed and seen and been involved in a lot of services, a lot of revivals, a lot of spiritual movements and things like that. I want to ask you, what is your thoughts on that? Are there any apostles? I want to ask you, are there prophets? You know? Because people say, you know, there's a lot of people out here that go by apostle and go by prophet. I want to know what you're thought on that. Did God stop calling apostles? Did God stop calling prophets? Or are there still some? The ones that I see are questionable. But I have seen some folks that carry those titles that live upright and walk upright and have large followings, too. But the modern-day prophet, to me, does not function anything like. Let's say you. Someone did believe in the Bible as it is. The modern-day prophets don't function anything like the biblical prophets. They're telling you, you're going to have a new house. You're going to have a new car. You got. The modern-day biblical prophets would be walking up to the White House telling the president of the United States what he did and said on the phone to Bibi Netanyahu last night. And if you don't get it together, he's going to be dead by 12 o'clock tomorrow.
Speaker 5So, you know, the prophets are not the same. They ain't the same. So, what's your thoughts on that? What's your thoughts on it?
Speaker 3Well, these prophets are going to the White House. They're just not delivering that message.
Speaker 5So, I mean, I'm. It's the only one I want to hear.
Speaker 3I, like you, I have a very eclectic Christian background. Grew up going to some charismatic and Pentecostal churches, some that were not. And I, honestly, if people want to believe that there are modern-day apostles and prophets, I'm fine with that. I think that is squarely within the four corners of historic Christianity. Like, you're not being a heretic for thinking that. And I think. If you look across the landscape of all the different range of churches and styles of Christianity, that use this kind of five-fold ministry paradigm there are healthy models of it and there are very very unhealthy models of it yeah now the healthier models i would say are ones that that want to understand these not as hierarchical but as cooperative and and you can see even sometimes find churches and and places where they functionally just kind of taken the role of the bishop and renamed it the apostle yeah right and and and there's other kind of expressions right the function is the same right like they're still accountable to other leaders they're still within a broader kind of system that there's checks and balances right i think that's fine and there are definitely kind of expressions of pentecostalism that embrace the idea of modern prophecy but want to keep it within certain bounds and and and regulate it with according to the other gifts and according to the bible fine right that's great where it starts to get scary is where people start claiming i'm an apostle and therefore my authority supersedes every pastor i am a prophet and therefore the words that come out of my mouth are the direct words of god that you need to abide by and if you disagree with me you're disagreeing with god like that that it's that authoritarian move that goes on in these five-fold ministry circles that i think is really really unhealthy now again i i have i have friends who believe in five-fold ministry who i think have very healthy ways of thinking about and talking about and using this within the church there are there are also churches that say the apostolic gifting is the gifting of going out and being a missionary and so we send out apostles right that's what it means to be an apostle you're a sent one we send out apostles to go be missionaries great right like fine right but the the challenge is that especially through the new apostolic reformation these ideas have gotten twisted and turned into this form of christian supremacy and authoritarianism that is extremely unhealthy and is toxified by the new apostolic reformation it's really terrifying our politics by the day and and is really part of the the infrastructure the spiritual infrastructure that has put trump in office and it maintains this christian base of support around him and i i am profoundly critical of that and i think that it is extremely
Speaker 2unhealthy yeah that that's where my that's the same place where my criticism comes from the self-appointed part is because they they have this idea this certitude that they've got a direct connect to the divine and high and whatever they say even if it doesn't come true later which that that open what would you call open theism idea um it you know it allows them to fudge that that's the cynical theologian in me is that they can fudge the prophecies and then say well we just didn't pray hard enough or the spiritual forces of darkness were too great or or whatever
Speaker 4rationalization there's no line like what happened all those prophets that said donald trump was going to win the presidency in 2020 there were so many and then when that didn't happen it was like he did win it was stolen from him and i was thinking so these so so so you serve an omnipotent god all powerful the beginning and the end the alpha and the omega the creator of heaven and earth and yeah and he that god that you say you serve the earth the the politics of the united states stole something from him well they
Speaker 2would say the demons stole it from him yeah that's the that's the open theism of dutch right i mean i mean
Speaker 4paula go ahead and call your angels from africa wherever they're at and tell them to get over here and do their job they went on their job you know so it's just when you when you make yourself god there's no there's no line there's the it's always blurred and it could always change and shift and move you know what i'm saying there's never any black and white where you that was wrong you lied and now you need to get somewhere and sit down because you're not hearing from god it's like no god let me tell you what the new thing that's going to be that god said because you know i'm the voice of god so it just turns into foolery and dare i say but anyways go ahead well
Speaker 2we've talked about c peter wagner on this show before uh and and other places but there is a there's a very quickly the evolution from peter wagner being at fuller to starting to come into the the theological movement of charismatic pentecostalism and it eventually morphs into somebody decides to call it the new apostolic reformation and in the book you talk about the nar uh kind of the fringe becomes the carpet but then you um describe it as a three-legged stool so to speak so what are what are the three legs that make up the nar and and how it functions and moves in in uh in the independent charismatic christian world yeah let me
Speaker 3do the one thing one minute version of of the peter wagner backstory because i think that actually helps set up for understanding these three legs so peter wagner fuller seminary professor former missionary he comes out of that like first quadrant of evangelicalism kind of more more the sober stayed style of evangelicalism but he's a seminary professor he's an expert in church growth is trying to understand why certain churches grows and and in the in the early 80s he becomes fixated with these independent charismatics he comes to believe that that is where the future growth of the church is going to happen and so this is his area of study and he's kind of like trying to understand it he's kind of immersing himself in it hanging out with people who are calling themselves apostles and prophets all these kind of downstream from the latter rain folks and he starts to believe it he starts to believe that this stuff is true and and and then some of these people are giving him prophecies saying actually you're one of these latter rain apostles and he he believes that he comes to to accept that and so he eventually kind of builds this new apostolic reformation idea out of that so he's also obsessed with ideas of spiritual warfare so part of what what is driving the new apostolic reformation is a you've got this latter rain idea of modern apostles and prophets and and as wagner starts to form some of these kind of networks in the 1990s hundreds of charismatic pastors and revivalists and worship leaders are all joining his networks because it's it's the hot thing that's happening in the independent charismatic space and and all of them are telling that they are apostles and prophets right it's telling that in a in a movement that believes in five-fold ministry the three of those offices are never used right we're all apostles and prophets right because that's where the status is and so wagner it kind of is organizing these different networks things like the international coalition of apostles or the apostolic council of prophetic elders and and these kind of low-grade networks are where these folks start to congregate that becomes the infrastructure of the new apostolic reformation so there's the apostles and that's that's one of the core ideas the second core idea is what wagner calls strategic level spiritual warfare and the the basic I mean just very simple spiritual warfare is the belief that there are angels and demons who are in the invisible realm all around us who are battling for control over humanity and control of the world right and that that's a very very common belief among Christians I mean Pentecostals believe that many Evangelicals believe that they're Catholics who practice spiritual warfare and and the spiritual warfare part is that this battle is going on around us it's affecting us and as Christians we can participate in that warfare through prayer or through singing worship music or maybe at the extreme and performing an exorcism right and again those are all very common kind of everyday kind of ideas within Christianity Wagner takes those ideas and puts them on steroids he says what actually the reality that you can't see is that there are ranks of demons there are levels and hierarchies of demons and at the top of those hierarchies are really powerful demons commander general level demons that he calls
Speaker 4territorial spirits the warlocks yeah and
Speaker 3the territorial spiritual
Speaker 4movement the witches and
Speaker 3the warlocks and well and he's getting this again he's also getting this from Ephesians where it talks about the principalities and the powers this is the principalities and the powers those are territorial spirits and they are commander level demons that can control literal physical territory and and human institutions so there's there's a demon
Speaker 4over Hollywood there's some scriptures that people could cherry pick to validate that like the prince of Persia and who was it that was praying and they said I was held up for three days or whatever you know I was on my way to respond to you but I was held up by the death by this demon you know what I'm saying so I think that's where people you know can say well it's right there in the scripture there's territorial spirits you know and
Speaker 3they are doing some scripture referencing in this like they're evangelicals right they care about the bible but a lot of the revelation of this is coming through prophecies where the prophets are praying and saying oh I see you the the demon of Jezebel over West Hollywood we need to go and cast out the demon of Jezebel right okay well I'm like that that's vaguely biblical but like you're rooting it in your own claims of hearing the voice of God as well and so those are the two right and in the way these merge is Wagner starts saying well the apostles and prophets are the generals of spiritual warfare they're the ones who see into the spiritual realm and can mobilize the church to do this strategic level spiritual warfare and their efforts are they're trying to get hundreds of thousands millions of Christians praying at the same time for the same cause to displace these territorial spirits and in order for the church to expand and grow in those areas this is actually a big part of what's going on on January 6th is strategic level spiritual warfare when you see the Christians all around the capital doing kind of these wild kind of manifestations of Christianity that's what they believe
Speaker 4that they believe
Speaker 3they're
Speaker 4doing a spiritual work yeah
Speaker 3and in fact I can show you the video of some of wagner's followers at the u.s capital and they're praying against the territorial spirits and there's one of them is kind of like i see a dragon a territorial spirit that's shaped like a dragon laid out over the u.s capital and its head is over the the house of representatives and it's and that's when
Speaker 4they broke in when they broke in they actually prayed on the uh the congressional floor whatever that is when they on the days yeah so they were in their mind they were doing spiritual war they were breaking the laws what they were doing to commit but in their mind they were doing spiritual warfare yeah
Speaker 3and the third leg of the stool comes along a little bit later comes through this guy lance wall now wall now is another independent charismatic latter rain guy and he claims that he receives a prophecy in the year 2000 and in this prophecy there are seven mountains and they represent the different areas and arenas of authority and culture education government arts and entertainment family religion media business and commerce and he says each of these is a mountain right and he and he imagines in his prophecy that the top of that mountain the position of control over the government mountain or the education mountain is either controlled by god and the christians or by satan and the demons and there's no in between right either satan is in control of your government or god and the christians are in control of your government either satan is the control of education in your country or god and the christians are in control and then the mandate right it's called the seven mountain mandate the mandate is for christians to take over the seven mountains for christians to rise to positions of power and influence to displace the demons and the territorial spirits and the and the satanic kind of leaders that are at the top of these of these mountains in order for christians to take over society and have christian influence flow down and let me just observe if you go back to the rise of the religious right in the 1980s right jerry falwell james dobson that whole crowd i'm not a fan but at the very least they were trying to play by the rules of liberal democracy they were saying we are the moral majority and we as christians can mobilize through grassroots organizing to affect american politics we can get our people elected if we can get unified and start voting as a block right that's that's within the rules of liberal democracy that is not the seven mountain mandate the seven mountain mandate assumes that that christians are kind of a minority within society and that they can take over society by accelerating their growth into positions of power and influence and then letting christian influence flow down from the top it's not grassroots it's top down and this is part of the ideology would you say that the
Speaker 4seven mountain i'm gonna call it a theology but the movement or whatever we want to call
Speaker 2it yeah it's part of the dominion theology that we've yeah would you say
Speaker 4that that's what's at play right now it seems to me that that's what's at play right now when i think about project 2025 and all the folks that have surrounded trump in this trump 2.0 version being extremely he's surrounded by some extreme evangelicals evangelicals right um they're quoting some scriptures and some made-up scriptures and prayers for this war um you know hexeth apparently quoted uh a movie samuel so that that was that that was the thing that happened in the united states history but do you think that that seven mountain movement or whatever is at play right now would you say that that's something that's being haven't been rolled out and is manifesting right now in our
Speaker 3government i think it's it's it's at play for a lot of the figures in the trump administration especially these kind of nar aligned folks um i mean if you look so so if you look at the pictures right of trump with all these religious leaders overwhelmingly those people are independent charismatics the leaders that show up in these photos with trump are overwhelmingly independent charismatics and that that's part of that moving from the fringe to becoming the carpet right these were these are kind of fringy leaders but paula white kane who herself is an independent charismatic and is trump's closest religious advisor and then the nar have kind of created a space around trump where those folks tend to thrive now i will note though that i would call the new apostolic reformation a brand of christian supremacy they believe that christians are better than other people and are entitled to rule over other people they're not the only brand they're not the only brand though and there there are at least two other brands of christian supremacy in the u.s today that are trying they're angling for power in the trump administration and those would include more of the kind of classical calvinist reconstructionists the kind of doug wilson pete hegseth crowd and they have a similar theology and that's inspired them to do things that's also part of dominion theology and we can get into all those nuances if you want so they have some similar theology but they're also they would not believe in the seven mountains that is not their way of approaching some of this stuff but they also believe that christians should rule over society and then the third brand the third style or brand is this very hardline kind of catholic uh kind of militant catholicism that is very much embodied in a guy that's a very hardline kind of catholic that's very much embodied in a guy that's a very hardline kind of catholic that is very much embodied in a guy that's a very hardline kind of catholic that's a very hardline kind of catholic and these other forms of christian
Speaker 2that's a very hardline kind of catholic and these other forms of christian supremacy and these other forms of christian supremacy and these other forms of christian supremacy christian nationalist christian nationalist christian nationalist uh groups uh groups uh groups also have that also have that also have that uh doug wilson with the with the uh doug wilson with the with the uh doug wilson with the with the communion of reformed evangelical communion of reformed evangelical communion of reformed evangelical churches churches churches leonard leo the hardline catholic with leonard leo the hardline catholic with leonard leo the hardline catholic with the teneo group the teneo group the teneo group uh uses the networking model very uh uses the networking model very uh uses the networking model very successfully to infiltrate successfully to infiltrate successfully to infiltrate um the the group known as the family um the the group known as the family um the the group known as the family that jeff charlotte uh exposed with his that jeff charlotte uh exposed with his that jeff charlotte uh exposed with his book they all have these book they all have these book they all have these really fantastic really fantastic really fantastic ways of networking and building their ways of networking and building their ways of networking and building their large nets large nets large nets and what and what and what what i have long said about these what i have long said about these what i have long said about these different dominionists different dominionists different dominionists or dispensationalists uh either way or dispensationalists uh either way or dispensationalists uh either way because you can find because you can find because you can find theocratic or christian nationalist theocratic or christian nationalist theocratic or christian nationalist adjacent types in both camps adjacent types in both camps adjacent types in both camps is there's going to come a day is there's going to come a day is there's going to come a day if they get their way where the if they get their way where the if they get their way where the theological theological theological infighting starts and we've already infighting starts and we've already infighting starts and we've already yeah we've already seen it with with yeah we've already seen it with with yeah we've already seen it with with hegseth saying that there's not going with hegseth saying that there's not going with hegseth saying that there's not going to be catholic mass at the pentagon to be catholic mass at the pentagon to be catholic mass at the pentagon and and doug wilson saying once we're in and and doug wilson saying once we're in and and doug wilson saying once we're in charge charge charge there's not going to be any you know uh there's not going to be any you know uh there's not going to be any you know uh parades for parades for parades for mary going down the street and that kind mary going down the street and that kind mary going down the street and that kind of thing of thing of thing but at the same time you've got jd but at the same time you've got jd but at the same time you've got jd vance vance vance and i mean not jd vance william wolf and and i mean not jd vance william wolf and and i mean not jd vance william wolf and kevin roberts kevin roberts kevin roberts william wolf the white nationalist william wolf the white nationalist william wolf the white nationalist southern baptist sitting down with kevin southern baptist sitting down with kevin southern baptist sitting down with kevin roberts the hardline traditionalist roberts the hardline traditionalist roberts the hardline traditionalist catholic catholic catholic working and playing together in their working and playing together in their working and playing together in their little little little theocratic sandbox which is very bizarre theocratic sandbox which is very bizarre to me to me to me yeah so all of that uh yeah so all of that uh yeah so all of that uh different kinds of christian supremacy different kinds of christian supremacy different kinds of christian supremacy christian nationalism christian nationalism christian nationalism um are at play but it seems to be the um are at play but it seems to be the um are at play but it seems to be the nar nar nar um is the one that's the most making the um is the one that's the most making the um is the one that's the most making the most most most noise and it's because of these networks noise and it's because of these networks noise and it's because of these networks and certain and certain and certain certain major players so you've already certain major players so you've already certain major players so you've already mentioned paul white and and peter mentioned paul white and and peter mentioned paul white and and peter wagner and lance wall now wagner and lance wall now wagner and lance wall now um tell us something about why um tell us something about why um tell us something about why we she has been featured as the we she has been featured as the we she has been featured as the representative of fundamentalist buck representative of fundamentalist buck representative of fundamentalist buck wittery uh on this show so has lance wittery uh on this show so has lance wittery uh on this show so has lance wall now so has dutch sheets and lou wall now so has dutch sheets and lou wall now so has dutch sheets and lou engel but people might not remember who engel but people might not remember who engel but people might not remember who they are so give us give us kind of a they are so give us give us kind of a they are so give us give us kind of a snapshot of some of these key players snapshot of some of these key players snapshot of some of these key players and how they kind of and how they kind of and how they kind of led this theological uh as you led this theological uh as you led this theological uh as you aggressive political theology towards aggressive political theology towards aggressive political theology towards january
Speaker 36th yeah and part of what i'm january 6th yeah and part of what i'm january 6th yeah and part of what i'm trying to show in the book because i have trying to show in the book because i have trying to show in the book because i have a chapter about each of these folks a chapter about each of these folks a chapter about each of these folks and i'm trying to show how this this and i'm trying to show how this this and i'm trying to show how this this band of very talented band of very talented band of very talented charismatic leaders forms around peter charismatic leaders forms around peter charismatic leaders forms around peter wagner becomes a kind of mentoring wagner becomes a kind of mentoring wagner becomes a kind of mentoring circle around him and that includes circle around him and that includes circle around him and that includes people like lance wall now like lou people like lance wall now like lou people like lance wall now like lou engel is in some of these kind of engel is in some of these kind of engel is in some of these kind of circles cindy jacobs che on dutch sheets circles cindy jacobs che on dutch sheets circles cindy jacobs che on dutch sheets right these are some of the folks who right these are some of the folks who right these are some of the folks who are restructuring american evangelicalism are restructuring american evangelicalism are restructuring american evangelicalism today they're celebrities in the today they're celebrities in the today they're celebrities in the charismatic world today but back then charismatic world today but back then charismatic world today but back then they were kind of upstart pastors who they were kind of upstart pastors who they were kind of upstart pastors who were all kind of gravitating towards were all kind of gravitating towards were all kind of gravitating towards wagner as a mentor to kind of lead them wagner as a mentor to kind of lead them wagner as a mentor to kind of lead them into this new apostolic reformation into this new apostolic reformation into this new apostolic reformation style so in that circle and again style so in that circle and again style so in that circle and again there's there's hundreds of pastors and there's there's hundreds of pastors and there's there's hundreds of pastors and other leaders who join wagner's networks other leaders who join wagner's networks other leaders who join wagner's networks but there's this inner core of about 20 but there's this inner core of about 20 but there's this inner core of about 20 30 people that is very hard line very 30 people that is very hard line very 30 people that is very hard line very dedicated to the seven mountains vision dedicated to the seven mountains vision dedicated to the seven mountains vision and they're all writing books they're and they're all writing books they're and they're all writing books they're all they're all very prolific in their all they're all very prolific in their all they're all very prolific in their teaching and in their ministry teaching and in their ministry teaching and in their ministry and those folks become celebrities in and those folks become celebrities in and those folks become celebrities in charismatic media over time but as charismatic media over time but as charismatic media over time but as they're doing this so they're they're they're doing this so they're they're they're doing this so they're they're integrating all these ideas spiritual integrating all these ideas spiritual integrating all these ideas spiritual warfare seven mountains apostles and warfare seven mountains apostles and warfare seven mountains apostles and prophets prophets prophets and and they're just kind of rolling out and and they're just kind of rolling out and and they're just kind of rolling out this whole campaign on the seven this whole campaign on the seven this whole campaign on the seven mountains in early 2008 mountains in early 2008 mountains in early 2008 and john mccain picked sarah palin as and john mccain picked sarah palin as and john mccain picked sarah palin as is running me is running me is running me and sarah palin was mentored by an nar and sarah palin was mentored by an nar and sarah palin was mentored by an nar prophet named mary glazier in alaska for prophet named mary glazier in alaska for prophet named mary glazier in alaska for years before before she became a part politician all through her career as a politician. She's being mentored by Mary Glazier. And so from the NAR's perspective, they think one of their own is going to rise to this position of great power. And they think that we're going to conquer the government mountain through Sarah Palin. And of course, when they lose, when McCain and Palin lose to Obama and Biden, they're devastated. And so they spend most of the Obama presidency in a kind of despair and longing for a kind of politician who's going to lead them out of this malaise. And I mean, like Dutch Sheets, who is one of Peter Wagner's mentees, very prominent NAR leader, very prominent pastor and leader in the charismatic world today. He calls Obama a Muslim. He talks about the Obama White House being infiltrated by demons. I mean, this is a very standard kind of demonization that they do of anyone who does not abide by their vision of politics or their vision of Christianity. So they're primed when Donald Trump hits the scene. And they're some of the first leaders, the first Christian leaders to meet with Trump. They're some of the first Christian leaders to endorse Trump. Peter Wagner, even though his health is declining, he dies in October of 2016, right before the election. But he is one of the first major evangelical leaders to endorse Donald Trump. And he casts his absentee ballot for Trump from his deathbed, basically. And that is seen by his followers as a prophecy. About Donald Trump. So these are the folks who are the first leaders, the first Christian leaders to start vouching for Donald Trump, including Lance Wall now. And Paula White is helping to kind of draw them into these circles around Trump. And then they become the chief spiritual propagandists in the first Trump administration. And again, they believe in prophecy. So they start having all these prophecies about Donald Trump that you already mentioned in December, right? All these prophecies about the 2020 election. Well, those are building over the course, of the first Trump administration. By the time you get to 2020, there are hundreds of these prophecies, all positive, all about Donald Trump, all saying in unison that he is going to win the 2020 election. And that's what sets up what happens on January 6th. Because they're saying, well, Trump is the prophesied president. He's the one that God has chosen. If something is stopping it, it must be spiritual warfare. It must be that there's a demonic conspiracy to keep Donald Trump from fulfilling the gospel. And that's what they're saying. And that's these prophecies from being the one that God wants on the American throne. And so we need to intervene. We need to do spiritual warfare to put Trump back in office.
Speaker 2Yeah. I had not heard of that open theism concept that Dutch sheiks espouses. And I definitely hadn't heard of his wildly ridiculous exegesis or eisegesis of Ecclesia. So could you, because that concept, the Ecclesia as not as a gathering of believers, but as temporal power. Yeah, it is bonkers. But can you explain that? Because it is so important to, because it becomes this sort of, as you call it, spiritual meme for that movement.
Speaker 3Yeah. So the open theism is basically just the idea that God, that God is not, the future is not fixed perfectly. That God is flexible and that God has not already predetermined everything. So God wants certain things to happen. God reveals those things in their theology to the prophets, but those things aren't necessarily going to happen again because of the spiritual warfare. The demons are going to try to thwart the will of God. And so there's this crucial role for the apostles and prophets to lead the church in spiritual warfare, to accomplish the will of God. Yeah. And so there's this crucial role for the apostles and prophets to lead the church in spiritual warfare to accomplish the will of God. And that, again, that, that's the theology behind January 6th, right? They're saying, we know what God wants. God wants Trump. It's our job to fight back the demons to get Trump back in office. Right? Now this, this Ecclesia idea, that's how they pronounce it. They pronounce it Ecclesia. So it's, it's, it's in Latin, it's Ecclesia. In Greek it's Ecclesia. So the Dutch sheets who is, he's, so if you've ever seen these appeal to heaven flags, the white flag with the green tree in the center, phrasing appeal to heaven, you kind of see them all over in Christian national circles. That's Dutch sheets. That, that, that idea came from Dutch sheets. And I have the whole history of that in the, in the book. But he also has this idea that he kind of claims is a biblical interpretation, but it's a lot more of a prophecy actually. That is, he's, he's reading in Matthew chapter 16, right? Very, very important and famous passage where, right? That, that Peter kind of tells Jesus, you are the son of God. You're the Messiah. And, and, and Jesus says back to Peter, you, Peter, are the rock on which I will build my church, my Ecclesia. The term Ecclesia is usually just translated church in the Bible. In Greek, it means assembly, right? It's, it's kind of a synonym of synagogue, right? The synagogue is the place of assembly where people gather. Well, the early church adopts the word Ecclesia, which is kind of a synonym. Now in the historic Greek, if you go back to the kind of Greek era of Alexander, sometimes they use this word Ecclesia to mean assembly of legislators. In the way that we talk, sometimes we'll talk about a state assembly, right? That is that that's like, that's the legislature. So this, there was this term back in the more kind of democratic or Republic days. They use that term. That's not how they're using it in Jesus' day, right? Cause now it's the Roman empire, right? There is no Republic, but Dutch Sheets claim is that's actually what Jesus meant. Is that the church is the gathered legislative assembly that has power over the earth. That it is God's delegated congressional assembly and he would, and they would, especially say it's really the apostles and prophets who are the Ecclesia and that they have legislative authority over the earth and what they decree and declare in the spiritual realm has legislative power over the physical realm. And so if you go and watch what some of these folks are doing around January 6th, again, that they're, they're saying, we are the Ecclesia. We have authority over the, this, this, this, this body, that this Congress that wants to claim that it has authority. We're the real government from heaven. And we are declaring that Donald Trump is enthroned over America, right? So they, it's, it's this idea like that the church is the real government and everything else is just kind of play or foe or demonic. If it's not in accordance with the church. Again, I, I have not found any biblical commentator of any repute who has ever read that verse that way, but Dutch Sheets claims this is the only way to understand this. And in fact, it gives us all this authority that we get to go and use to claim that we are the real government on earth.
Speaker 2That's, that's so wildly terrible eisegesis. That's like prosperity gospel eisegesis, you know, that Jesus had multiple houses and he was really a rich guy. And I mean, I've heard prosperity preachers say that kind of thing. And I'm just like, y'all have not read, y'all didn't do the reading.
Speaker 3Well, prosperity theology is also independent charismatic theology. That's where prosperity theology comes from. So it's not surprising that that is also influencing the, that they are folks too.
Speaker 4Yeah. Before you go on Dylan, I got a few questions. Based on all of that, especially based on the political climate we're in and what we're witnessing take place in the white house. I personally feel like we're seeing the weaponization of religion and the weaponization of the very name of Jesus more than I've ever seen in my lifetime in any administration. Um, it seems like we're just in a whole, a whole nother level. I want to ask you a question. Um, at what point does faith, faith, religion, whatever the case, cross the line from something that you're believing in that, um, that you inhabit in your own personal life as a matter of practice and cross the line into political weaponization. I feel like we're in a place where faith is being used as a weapon. On the country as a whole, and also being used as justification to bomb, kill, murder, kidnap, whatever this government is doing here, there, and beyond. So the first question is at what point does it cross the line, your faith into political opposition? And the second part is the extremism that we're seeing it. Do you think that that's driven more by theology as in they're going by the scripture, like the violent take about force, the kingdom suffered bonds and the violent take about force or whatever scripture they want to. Sure. I pick, or do you think it's more based on fear and identity and identity, cultural, uh, you know, wars, uh, fear, politics, and that kind of stuff, or do you think it's, it's actually rooted in scripture, this extremism that we're
Speaker 3seeing? Yeah, those are both great questions. Um, so to take the first one, where, where, where is that line? Where, where do you cross it? Um, I mean, this is a, this is what my new book is really about is, is trying to understand theologically how you get there and I'll, I'll give you the actual, the date that this happens, the word where it crosses the line. It's a three 12 CE version of Constantine way back. Right. It's way, way back. Right. And so emperor Constantine claims at his conversion that he gets a vision. He's, he's heading into a battle, this kind of civil war within the Roman empire. He claims he's the emperor. Another guy claims he's the emperor. They're going to war. And he, he, he tells everyone, Hey, right before the battle, I had a dream and Jesus appeared to me. And showed me the sign of the cross and said, by this sign, you will conquer. Sounds a lot like Jesus, right? Like that's exactly how Jesus talks, right? Here's my symbol, go slaughter people under that, right? Like that is the appropriation of Christianity for the sake of empire, for the sake of violence. And you could argue it happened before then in kind of minor instances. That's where it gets instantiated. That's where it gets enshrined in policy of the Roman empire. And a couple of generations later, Christianity becomes the official religion of the empire and you're off to the races with Christian imperialism, the Crusades, Inquisition, Christian colonialism, the enslavement of Africans, the Holocaust. I mean, like all of that, I argue my name. Right all the way up to
Speaker 4the year of our Lord, 20 and 26, where our department of war has this big old crusader cross on his body.
Speaker 3I think we should call it the department of holy war. That's what Pete Hengsteth wants it to be, right? He wants to be the secretary of holy war. He is obsessed with the Crusades. But the thing is, all this stuff, right? It sounds modern. Oh, five-fold ministry, spiritual warfare. It sounds very modern and contemporary. It's just the warmed up leftovers of Christian imperialism. Christians throughout centuries got very used to the idea that they were entitled to power over other people because they were Christians. And I would argue that there was always a counterbalance for that in the Christian tradition. There's always a counter tradition of Christians who wanted to follow the way of Jesus. the way of jesus is not coercive there is no holy war in the way of christ the right jesus doesn't come forcing anyone into anything he comes as the lowly servant as the colonized person on the edges of empire proclaiming the kingdom of god from a position of powerlessness he goes to the cross not to overtake the kingdom of caesar but to prove its inadequacy to prove its emptiness right but yet we have keep we keep trying to blend the the gospel of jesus with the gospel of caesar down through the centuries and pete hegsteth isn't doing anything new right the paul white isn't doing anything new this is very very old habit in fact for christians now your your other question remind me again that the second question because it was it was another good one and i was like this extremism
Speaker 4that we're seeing do you believe is primarily theology driven or culture fear identity driven or you think it's theology started but it's gassed by culture fear and identity
Speaker 3i think a lot of it is theology driven yeah i i i think um now there are forms of christian nationalism that are not deeply theological right i mean like there's all kinds of christian nationalists who are like oh they love the symbol of the flag and the cross and they like their god bless america right and and and it's it's kind of a cultural thing for them the more theological your christian nationalism gets the more dangerous it gets and the nar has deep theological christian national deep theological christian supremacy the the the doug wilson group the reconstructions group it's deeply theological for them right and it's so it's it's coming out of this place of they are they are trying to make meaning now it i would argue and this is what i argue in my new book that it's anti-christ theology yeah right it's it's theology that is literally pointing in the opposite direction of jesus and saying that that is how you get power in the world jesus was an afterpower in this world right that's that's not what he's going for and yet that is they're trying to leverage the gospel jesus now they genuinely believe it they genuinely believe this that's that's
Speaker 4that's that's what makes sense why we're in this little petty battle between trump and the pope oh yeah because they're like on opposite sides of the spectrum and he's like he's weak on crime he's weak on he's he's not a politician he's not a police what the hell you mean he's weak on crime you know
Speaker 3you know who was weak on crime and this is coming from the guy who
Speaker 5pardoned 1500 people who committed felonies broke down walls busted windows defecated in the halls of congress and beat down police you know i'm saying he's weak he's weak on crime he's the guy not the guy who pardoned the drug trafficker from from nicaragua wherever the hell he was from you know but the pope the pope weak on crime yeah
Speaker 4yeah so i i don't i don't understand it but apparently this is where we are this is america as chalice gambino would say dylan did you have another question i'm
Speaker 2sorry well i i just i wish i could go back in time and and take rj rush jenny's microphone away and and and and peter wagner's uh pan away and say no um but you're right it does go back to that but to that bridge and and 312 and and the cross on their shields and whatnot uh and empire christianity was born and then we get a hodgepodge of i i i i agree with you that a lot of these people in the nar are true believers but i also believe that they use their true belief as a grift um so it's a you know i i think sean foy is a raging narcissist um oh yeah and and paul white is about as grifty as they come and lance wall now selling supplements to you know to turn 70 year olds into 25 year olds and all that kind of stuff um but that's but i really that's
Speaker 3the prosperity theology as well right yeah yeah it's all integrated for them it's not it's not right they actually believe in the prosperity theology oh yeah like the grift is kind of built in for them right it's it's because they they believe that's how god is blessing them right and god is empowering them that they they are entitled to a little grift because they're do it in the name
Speaker 2of god right yeah and and again it sounds so much like the guy who said yeah um sell all your possessions give your stuff to the poor and then you'll know the kingdom of heaven um i i highly recommend this book to anybody that's interested in in what's going on theologically and politically today i've had a chance to sit in on some webinars with uh anthea butler and rachel tabat uh tabachnik tabachnik yeah um fred clarkson uh people like that talking about the nar um and it and it's it's frightening because of the of the radicalized language that they use and this this hyper sense of certitude behind that underlines it all and as you pointed out in the book when it's based on a feeling you there's no argument there's no there's no there's no argument there's no place you can go with that no rational uh biblical studies or logic or or or critical exegesis is going to convince them otherwise so i've just taken them to tell them well the holy spirit told me all for shit you know and that's that's where i land but um i just wanted to thank you for writing the book and it's uh the violent take it by force dr matthew taylor and it's about the new apostolic reformation and the people like that are going to be the ones that are going to be the ones that are going to be the ones that are going to be the ones that are going to be like paula white who are ingratiating themselves into our politics and
Speaker 4the next one coming out is defying tyrants defying tires
Speaker 3coming
Speaker 4out it comes
Speaker 3out october 6th um and the the the subtitle is the fun part so it's defying tyrants following jesus in a world of christian antichrists
Speaker 2there we go i mean that's basically the ministry of this show it's trying to you know we might hit it from a little bit of a heterodox perspective but we're at least trying to get the christians to behave like jesus rather than the the um the empire of christianity d did you have a word on the street before we always leave with the word on the street um and i don't know as
Speaker 4you can see i do have one last thing uh for dr taylor that i'd like him to answer and this is for those that are listening uh that might download this you know tomorrow or the next week or the next week or the next week or the next week tomorrow we got we interestingly enough we we get most people listen to our show early in the morning on friday i don't know why but uh so we usually get a couple hundred downloads very early in the morning on friday so this is for y'all friday morning folks i don't know all over the world shout out to our our maple uh mighty folks in canada they are the second biggest listenership after the united states shout out to the folks that are down in australia um in different parts of europe um in the little islands i even see listeners we get in all these little islands all over the place so we appreciate every single listener wherever you're listening from and dr taylor i want you to leave this with the people how can everyday believers okay discern between two things how can they discern between authentic faith and manipulated theology and what does resistance look like for those of us who still want to live in this world to hold on to our faith
Speaker 3i think jesus is still the measure of authentic faith and if so if if somebody is becoming more like jesus right what what uh paul calls the galatians the fruits of the holy spirit then they're on the path of jesus right then then they are walking in his steps as it says in second peter right they they are conforming to the path of christ what what he taught us is a path of self sacrifice a path of of laying down our needs and our wants to stop us from living in this world serve and to care for the needs of others and if somebody if i think if somebody's doing that then they're on the path of christ right sometimes people are on the path of christ they don't know they're on the path of christ right but there are people who are living that out in the world and i think we can find a very rich witness throughout the christian tradition people often from the margins not from the center often from the margins living that way and and i i think that is to me the measure of authentic faith and and it's also what we the standard we hold each other to right like are you becoming more like christ or not resistance um i so i i'm a fan of dietrich bonhoeffer and he has this great um image that he uses in one of his essays where he says you know the the role of the church in a situation of authoritarianism we have three things we can do one is we care for the victims of empire we care for the people who are on the on the other side of that governmental authority we care for the migrants we care for the lgbtq people we care for the people who are on the other side of that governmental authority we care for the people who who are are being persecuted and abused by imperial power and i think that's very relevant today the second thing he says is we can hold up the mirror to the empire we can expose the falseness of the empire right we we tell the truth we tell the truth about donald trump that he is just a petty wannabe tyrant who just really does want to control people and he is not jesus and he is not a secular messiah of america he is not a cyrus he's not a who he's he's just a he just he's a tin pot dictator right right and and and it's kind of the role of the little boy in the emperor's new clothes he's just a naked dude don't don't believe what he's trying to sell you right the third thing is the hardest and that is in in um bonhoeffer uses the image right the people who are being crushed by empire it's like they're being crushed under the wheels of a cart and at some point it because it's not enough to just be a little bit of a just go and try to try to care for those people and try to pull them out from under the wheels of the cart at some point you got to throw something in the spokes of the wheel you got to disrupt the process of the empire and the way that it is is harming people and i think that's what happens through protest that i'm not i'm not in any way advocating for violence right we i think we need to follow the model of jesus jesus is not violent right but jesus exposes the lie of the empire and he puts himself he puts his own body between the violence of the empire and the violence of the people absorbs that violence into himself that is the role in extremity that i think we go to as christians we put ourselves between the lynching mob and its victims we put ourselves between ice and its victims we put ourselves in the position where we say that put the use your aggression against us and we will expose you for what you really are and i think that is the beauty of the civil rights movement and i think we can live up
Speaker 2to that today what which essay of bonhoeffer's was that do you remember it's on
Speaker 3the jewish question on
Speaker 2the jewish question
Speaker 3question 33 i think
Speaker 2okay okay and that's that that last piece is what the bishop of new hampshire recently said this year he said to clergy get your wills get your papers in order because it's time for us to put ourselves between the regime and those that they're attacking yeah that that that's a word right there that as as the uh nar would say that that's a word right there i got a word from god right there uh thank you thank you for that um absolutely and that's definitely not eric metaxas's version of dietrich bonhoeffer either yes he he has
Speaker 3corrupted bonhoeffer's legacy in a in a disturbing way yeah
Speaker 4amen well i have thoroughly enjoyed you i i i am so glad you accepted our invitation you were blowing up all over the place i don't know if we're gonna get you or not but i'm so glad that you decided to come to the dance with us that is the god squad podcast and i'm gonna leave everybody with this last thing in a world where a often disguises itself as righteousness and fear is preached as faith we have to learn how to discern the difference i believe dr taylor helped us with that tonight some because not everything said in god's name sounds like god and not everything that claims authority carries truth tonight i hope that this uh podcast will be a reminder that you are allowed to question you are called to think and you are responsible for the kind of faith you carry into this world a faith that is rooted in love will never require you to abandon your humanity or to violate anyone else's a faith grounded in truth will never fear honest questions and a faith that reflects god will always and i do mean always make room for justice so stay awake and where i come from we say stay woke stay curious stay compassionate and whatever you do don't inherit your theology make sure it's worthy of the god you believe in thank you dr taylor for joining
Speaker 3us amen thank you
Speaker 4all right we are here look if you want to get his book you need to go get it like right now um the violent take it by force and also be ready and set your reminder and your timer and your alarm clock to get the next book available for
Speaker 3pre-order now you can order it now next stop is
Speaker 4available right now all right so dylan that's all i got you got anything else on the way out the door
Speaker 2well that's our show tonight folks please remember to like subscribe and share we need dr taylor's message we need our message to be as broad as the nar's message because we need the voices to counteract the anti-democratic christophascist authoritarian fundamentalist fuckwittery that they're that they're bringing to the table uh so like subscribe and share check out dr taylor's sub stack check out his book uh you won't regret it and uh take it to the streets y'all take it to the streets and as peaceful away as you possibly can and we'll see you next week um we have l doubt next week is that right yes no somebody's coming next week we got another great guest next week uh might be keith giles might be no l doubt is later keith giles next week um so we'll see y'all then and on tell me everything with john fugel saying on sirius xm channel 127 on wednesday nights thank y'all for tuning in and downloading and all that good stuff peace be with you you
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