08 – The Harold: 1st Beats

[music] Welcome to Improv Beat by Beat. I'm Curtis Rutherford. I interviewed 24 different improvisers and then edited together chunks of those interviews to investigate different aspects of Improv one piece at a time. This is Episode 8. First Beats. [music] Once the opening is done, it's time for the first beats. First beats are the part of the herald where the ideas and premises from the pattern game are molded and hardened into the games that will be used in the rest of the herald. Whatever promise there was and the idea from the opening has to be delivered on in that first beat. This episode overlaps a lot with the opening episodes, episodes 5 through 7, because how you pull from your opening is going to affect how you start your first beats. Are you directly stealing lines of dialogue or characters or even a setting from the opening? Or are you just taking a half idea from the opening and starting more organically? The team should all know how they plan to use that opening to influence the first beats. This episode also overlaps with episodes 1 and 2, game framing justification and playing. First beats are the longest parts of the herald. In a 25-ish minute herald, the first beats should generally be about 3 minutes long. In that time, you're laying the groundwork for later beats, which won't have as much work to do. If you framed the game in the first beat and if necessary justified why the character is doing that weird thing in the first beat, then second and third beats will be easy, because you can just get right to the fun stuff right away. First up is Alex Dixon. We've been talking about how she originally learned the herald in Chicago and the differences she noticed when she started at UCB in New York City. So then coming to UCB, what were some of the culture shock things? So yeah, so game just having that pointed out, like that kind of thing. Yeah, game and premise. I don't think I fully. I remember being on "Loyd Night" and getting in an argument with Glenn Buzan about premise, and I realized I still didn't totally understand it. We did the pattern game in a rehearsal. And then I think let's say the suggestion was like cotton candy. We did a whole pattern game and then I came out and initiated a scene where I was just eating cotton candy. And at the end of the set, Glenn was like, where was that idea from? And I was like, what idea? And she was like, your initiation. And I was like, I don't know, the suggestion was cotton candy. I was just like, what are you talking about? And she was like, yeah, but which premise from the opening? And I was like, it wasn't from a premise. We're doing improv. I was like, in my mind, the pattern game was kind of like, let's get on, which is crazy. I don't know if I fell asleep in class, but I was like, let's get on the same page. And then you can use these ideas if you want. Because the Harold at I/O in Chicago is also the actual form of the Harold is still kind of like, you can use the structure if you want. So a lot of Harold at I/O are like, you have a few first beats and then maybe a group came and then it's like, whatever. So I think I was still marrying the two. So it was like, I understood that we were coming up with ideas, but it also was like, if you want. Sure. So Glenn was like, I know, but you came out first. That was the first first beat. So I assumed you were both. And I was like, Glenn, I don't know what you're talking about. I thought of cotton candy, and then I want to do an improv scene where we found out what it was. And she was like, I know what improv is. And then Shannon was our coach at the time. Shannon was like, here's what's happening. And she just sort of was like, Alex, Glenn is talking about this. Glenn, Alex is talking about, and I was like, I just remember being like, oh, you're supposed to use those things. And that was my first time being like, oh, that's why initiations are really important. Like it really sadly didn't click until I did a bunch of pattern games on Lloyd Knight with Glenn, who's a game machine. Who was like, you didn't tell me what the game was. And I was like, what? It's a funny that you do specifically because yeah, she's very much like a writer and it thinks in that game machine way. So for the two of you to clash, it's like you could not think of a better two opposing pieces that would really show the difference. It also confused me because it was such a fun scene that I was like, I thought that she was saying that scene didn't go well and here's why. But she was more just trying to be like, oh, let me understand what you were doing. Hey, I spent the first 30 seconds scared that I was stepping on your toes. Right. And I was like, what toes? We're making up the toes. I didn't come in with toes. Such a disturbing way of referring to organic. There's no toes to step on. Guys, just make up your toes. Let's assume no one has toes, guys. Yeah. So how did then learning premise in that way? How do you think that made you better at then coaching or teaching that to other people? I think that I always teach assuming that everyone felt the way that I did. Yeah. So like we were just talking about, I try not to just say game. I'll say it in different ways so that it clicks for different people. But I also emphasize over and over again in I teach 301 and 401 and I do this all the time for both of them. Which is like, do the pattern game. Get on the same page. Remember the premises that you like. If you're initiating, get your whole idea out there. And the job of the responder is just to respond to what they heard. Not to go, wait, what happened to the pattern? Oh, this thing. So now I'm going to insert that like after the initiation. Unless the responder is like, I know exactly what that is and I'm going to add another thing. Yeah. But I see a lot of times the responder in a scene, the person with the second line, going like getting in their head immediately. And it's like, no, no, no, no. The pattern game created the initiation and now the initiation creates whatever's going to happen. But like now the pattern game's over. Stop thinking about it. Because if that's what improv was, if it really was like remembering this opening that we did and continuing to like pull from it so that you're saying the right thing, I wouldn't do it. Yes. That sounds terrible. So I tell them that a lot. I'm always like, I push clear initiations largely so that the person who has the responding line. Can just exist. Yeah. And so that the person who has the idea for the premise can say it and then let it go and start actually listening to what's happening. Right. Because I also see a lot of times the person who comes out and initiates knows the game in their head. But then if something more specific or more fun happens, they ignore it because they're like, no, this was the game from the pattern game. And it's like, no, but you found something that's still that game, but richer or like more interesting or more specific and you blew past it because you're still standing in a semi circle. Right. To court association. Ten minutes ago. Yeah, exactly. So I think I try to push that a lot because I think hearing it in that way over and over again would have helped me. Yeah. I did not understand that premise based improv and the thing that I love about improv could be the same thing for too long. It took me too long to realize that. Yeah. So I try to get my students in like, even when we start talking about game in 101, I introduce the concept of like we're still listening and responding after that. Yeah. And reacting to whatever comes up. This is just changing the first five, ten seconds of a scene. Right. And then do that. Right. So I think that's largely how it affects how I teach. I think the kind of like when you see those like not clear initiations or those like. Going back to the pattern game responses, it feels like when people are trying to play it to clever like that. Oh, I'm going to do a real subtle initiation. Then we're going to let it rest for a little while. Then we're going to like really hit this and it's like the audience already saw you guys do this in the pattern game. They know the waiter hates fish. Start with the waiter hating fish. I don't want to see a whole set up of like, what am I going to order? What do you think you're going to order? Yeah, and it's so funny because I think what students and improvisers learn over and over again is when they initiate with saying clearly like, I know I'm your waiter but I hate fish. It gets such a big laugh. So the audience is like, we know that. But when it's building, even if we eventually get to that line, at that point, it's like, yeah, we know. Okay. The audience is ahead of you. Yeah. It's like, guys, trust me. Building to it is not more interesting. Just say it. We already saw you build to it. We're going to do a lot of work for six minutes. Why not use that work? That's what I say to you. I'm like, guys, we just put in all that work. Why make it something that was just what I used to think it was, which was just like, I guess it was sort of a warm up to be for group mind. Now can we improvise? Right. But yeah, I see that a lot with like, vague initiations where I'm like, okay, stop. You want her to say this so that you can then say this so that you can get the game out, right? Yeah. Okay. And yeah, audiences do love just immediately hearing the game. It's like when a band just starts playing their hit, everybody's like, yeah, we remember this. Right. Exactly. That was Alex Dixon. It's common to think that the first beat is entirely determined by the opening. But really, as Alex said, it's just giving us that first line. That responder just has to respond to what she heard because the pattern game is over. A common exercise that Lloyd and Harold teams will do is have half the team leave the room and have the other half do a pattern game. After the pattern game is over, the people outside of the room will reenter and then respond to the initiations from the people who stayed in the room and did the pattern game. Those initiations of course, have to be clear since half the team didn't see that pattern game at all. But also, the people outside the room end up responding more honestly than normally. And it almost always ends up matching the premise from the pattern game. Even if half your team hasn't seen your pattern game, they should be ready to respond to those initiations. And your initiations should always be so clear that even if half the team didn't see the pattern game, they can still respond and have fun right away. The opening gives just that first line for your first beats. So make sure that that first line is super clear and then start improvising. Up next is Jenny Santangelo, who's going to talk about openings and how they lead into first beats. I love coaching openings and I love doing openings. I really love the. Because for me, openings are often character exploration and philosophy exploration. Like if we're doing like a scene painting opening, I'm having the worst time of my life because it just doesn't help me in the same way that it does. Like other people's brains work really well with that. But when we're working on openings where it's character based or even physically based sound movement, that kind of stuff, I find that such an exciting. Oh, what does this all feel like? Does this feel connected in some way? Or all of these taking place in the same world, in the same universe, in the same room? You know, who are all of these people? How would they interact with each other? It just feels. I like the opening because it has all of that potential and possibility and you get to expand out and then. I don't know. Like, I don't know. First beats are so exciting. But I think it's like, "Oh God, look at all of the things this could be." Before you have the like, "Did I do that right? Was that a good first beat? Did I?" "Oh God, well in the opening, we did this, but now I've brought this. " You know what I mean? All of the self-loathing that. Yeah. And I love what I love about coaching the opening is not so much the opening itself, but how you pull and initiate from the opening because it's such an interesting exercise in people to understand what they think they're communicating and what they're actually communicating. Right? So you have like a guy with a magic frog and it doesn't dance for anyone, but him, the classic Looney Tunes character. What's his name? Chester A. Frog? Something like that? Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, it is. Oh, fuck. I can't think of it. The Kurt Heads will know. Yeah. They'll know. Okay, so you got that guy. And you think, "Oh, right, we got this from the opening. It's so clear, it's so easy." And you come out and you go, "Hey, look what's in the box." Right? And the other person's like, "Oh, your fingers or whatever." And so I love you like, "Okay, cool. What were you hoping they were going to say?" Yeah. Because that's always the thing, right? You're generally trying to set the other person up, right? If you're like a nice person in a broth. And I'm like, "Okay, what reaction did you hope they would have?" And when it's unclear, it's often so complicated. Well, what I wanted them to do was say this. And then I was going to say this. And then this was going to happen. And I was like, "Cool. Why don't we just start with either you saying the reaction you wanted to have, right? Why don't you react to the reaction you want?" Or start with the reaction yourself and gift them. It's fun to watch people start to like transform how they look at an opening and I think people think it has to be really sly. And it doesn't. No. I don't think it does. Do you think it has to be sly? Not at all. Especially the initiation, I think, should be so clear. I despise pronouns and initiations. Like they said this. They said this, yeah. They, it, won. Anything that's behaving like a pronoun. Yeah. Of that. I mean, I feel that way actually about all improv of, we should always be neat. It shouldn't be like, "Oh, what's he doing? Tell me." Right. I think it's like, "Mishik and Jay Frog." Boom! Baby, boom! That was going to bug me for days. So yeah, it's like instead, "Hey, what's Larry doing?" Right. Right. What's Larry Francis doing over there? Oh my god, Larry Francis is so funny. Giving people two news is so funny. It's so stupid. And it's like, it's so dumb, but any little wrinkle that we can like feel and touch under our fingers, pronouns never have that. And so yeah, in an initiation of like the look at what's in here. What? Yeah. And the thing about it is, it's sort of, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It's like, "Well, I don't want to step on them. I don't want to steam roll. I don't want to be bossy about the scene." And it's like, "Right, but without giving them any clarification or any idea, you're leaving someone probably feeling very stranded trying to do the thing you want them to do." Yeah. Right? Because you want to please each other and you want to go, "Oh, I should know what's in the box. I am an idiot. I'm a box Jenny, what in the fucking box?" And that's not a good place to put your scene partner. Yeah. So instead of you go, "I'm going to talk and frog in this box. You want to see him?" And then the other person should probably go, "Yeah." Yeah. Or you could be a peanut pod and you also have a frog in a box. Can you imagine how funny that would be? I have a talking frog in a box. You don't say. I also have a talking frog in a box. Did you shop at the witch store? I was just the witch store in the mall. Like a hot topic. The one next to the hot topic? Yes. Oh my God. Why didn't we go together? Should have. Oh. Carpool. See? With that type of thing, I've been thinking of it in terms of relationships. In terms of it feels somehow better to like, "Yeah, be very sly." And to like give you, I thought I was giving you the thing you wanted. Right. Which in a actual human relationship is never the thing. It's always, "Oh, did you ask that person what they wanted?" Right. Or did they say, "Hey, this is the thing that I wanted." Right. Like, "Read my mind." Read my mind, yeah. And then I'm mad. Exactly. Yeah, it is always, I also find it fascinating. I think it's just human behavior. But it's like, I gave you, I gave you the whole world to create with. And you didn't do the thing I liked. This is your fault in some way. You know, like when we get so attached to our internal idea without expressing it, we have this expectation that they're either going to read our mind or be on the same page. And then we feel a sense of resentment. It's like, "No, dude, or lady, hey, that's on you." Right. If you want this to happen in the world, you've got to be the agent of your own chain. Yeah. I think in the first half of the scene, everybody should just be trying to get their heels on the floor. And then once you have that, everybody should be trying to get each other back on their toes. Yes. Right. It's like, agree with each other so much that we know what the ground is. Yes. It's rock solid. Yes. We are in like this strong, like squat position of the other game. Yes. Yeah. And then find the biggest bat possible and just try to knock that person over. Right. But we play it so much the opposite of, "Oh, I want to play it real slow in the beginning." And then when you didn't get it, now I'm going to yell, "Oh, but you, your frog doesn't dance. It's a dead frog." Right. But it's too late now. It's too late. It's too late. Any other things in the half? Yeah. God, yeah. It is so funny. I use this analogy, this tent pole analogy. So if you imagine like when are those old, timey camping tents, right? Where you have two poles and then you have the cloth over top of it. I've never actually seen a tent like this, but truly what I have in my head. Yes. So when you're establishing the scene, right, you have the cloth is the reality. It's your base reality. And then one person's opinion or raison d'etre or game is one pole. And then the other person, whether it's matching you or whether they're the opposite of you or whatever their thing is, that's the other pole. And what I see a lot of times happen is one person will be like, "I was shipwrecked." Right? And I'm coming onto this beach and I've come, I've washed up in Cosmell on like a party beach. This is a real scene I saw happen and it was truly one of the funniest things I've ever seen. But they washed up on the beach and they were desperately looking for water and medical help. And the other person was like a lady on a single's cruise who's like on the beach looking for love. Right. And so the guy was desperately trying to get medical help and she was trying to flirt with him. Right? So his tent pole is the desperately seeking medical help. Her tent pole is trying to woo this man. The minute either one of them fall into each other's game, the reality of the scene collapses. That's great. Right? If he's suddenly like, you know what? I don't need, give me a margarita. The scene dies. It dies. It falls flat. Everyone feels it and you feel so sad. So I think it's that same idea. Like you have to put your stakes in the ground. You have to understand what grounds you. So that you can then breathe out from there. Exactly. You definitely want to feel that tension of, oh, it might fall at any time. Yes. Yes. But it never should fall. Right. It never should sway even. Right. Yeah. That was Jenny Santangelo. I love that tent pole analogy for scenes when two different characters have two different wants, which is by the way, true of most two person scenes, unless it's maybe a P and a pod scene. You can acknowledge what the other side wants, but you can't let it overcome what you're doing. The game of the scene dies up next is build the pierro to talk more about playing first beats and initiations. What do you love about first beats? I feel like you can act a little more in them. I feel like you you have a little bit more space. I mean, I think I play it like maybe a little slower clip sometimes. And then I feel like I can settle into them a little more. They can be more organic. Yeah. And I feel like with a second beat or a third beat, it's like how funny was the idea you cooked up. Yeah. With the first beat, it's like you're walking in and you're able to really like feel out the scene. And I feel like that feels like more real behavior and it feels less of like, it's funny. It feels less like improv to me. Yeah. Yeah. You get to then just act and react. and do all that stuff and build it at a more realistic base. Yeah. Where it feels like, I don't know, I guess like second and third beats feel more like sitcoms, than like realistic. Yeah. Where it's like the base realities are heightened as well. And often like season five or six of sitcoms, where we know the characters now they've become this insane version where. Ron Swanson just wants bacon. Exactly. Yep. It's like he's gonna be grumpy about the government and want some bacon. Exactly. And he's become this cliche, he's become this like accentuated stereotype of himself. Yeah. I mean, as I'm talking to this, I probably should do like monocency and some shit more off. And that sounds like I want to do that. Yeah. So then if you are coaching a group and you're working on the Harold, what do you tell them for first beats? First off, what do you say, what advice do you give for initiating a first beat? Let's say they're doing pattern game opening. My main note in the Harold in initiating is just kind of like, it's usually like find a better way to say what you mean. Say what you mean is what I'm like, do you have an idea? Okay. If it's a yes, say it more directly. If it's a no, then find ways to just like dig in. But if it's like a pattern game, you probably have a pretty good idea. In what way do people say things in not directly enough? Like is it, are they trying to hint at the idea or? Yeah, I think that's, and the thing is I like to initiate more that way too because it feels more art for something. But it's often leads to ambiguity. Yeah. Where it's like, yeah, it's just like kind of say what it is. Or if you have like a very specific idea, then like maybe it's like you have an idea even of how the other person's reacting to you, then tell them that. You know, it's like, alright, don't be mad, but you know, like say that. Say like, or like, I know this, I know this might upset you. Yeah. You're like say, like include that information. So you're like laying things out as like clearly as you can. Yeah. I think I'm pretty forgiving with initiations off of a pattern game. Would you like to see in first beats overall then? Ideally by the end of the first beat, I want some sort of a take almost. Yeah. I don't know. Improv is often, it either feels like a take on something outside of the world or it feels like an inside joke that we've created. So like the opening is almost like this is our inside joke. And now I'm referring back to it. So you set up that inside joke in the opening. You very much just want to see, hey, we have this inside joke with the audience now. Yeah. Pay that off. Yes. Yeah. Where it's like referring back to it, we'll get the laugh. Then there are also like more slice of life games where like, I find it easy to like be the unusual person if we have like a really real base reality. So like, so if it's like a character behavior thing, I want a very real base reality because then it's going to feel funnier when they deviate from things. So you have to set the expectation really hard for a character game to stand out. A slightly strange character, if your world starts getting very crazy, they're not going to show up. You're not going to see what's so strange about them in that situation. Totally. And I want them to also feel, feel as much of that tension as possible. Right. So if it's a first beat with that sort of game, you want to see a team really just like, let's go into what is reality. Let's start with like a very like even more normal reality so that you know, hey, I'm setting you up to pop even more. Yes. I don't know. It's hard when you have the moment of discovery not happening the scene and then you just have to like recreate that out of nothing. I think it's challenging. Yeah, I agree. I like to get past it as fast as possible because like you can't recreate it. Just like great, you are with there to see creation. I like that inside joke thing a lot for that reason. I already saw the inside joke just start with that and you can build from there. Yeah. And I think that's maybe why like group game so much. Yeah. Because usually the moment of discovery happens in a group game. Yeah. Because people don't feel as beholden to come in with such a crystal clear idea or it's maybe like, all right, we are all like archaeologists looking for something, you know. And then from that we'll have somebody deviate from the expectation that we'll all deviate in that way. So it's like, I think this is maybe a DC thing, but there's often like, what's the trigger for this person? Yeah. What sets them off? And when you see the trigger happen rather than having it explain to you earlier in the beginning of the show, it's clear because people have an expectation of like, this is a trigger, this is the response. Yeah. You know, it's like that cause and effect idea. Yeah. Yeah, there's part of me that almost like organic first beats better. Yeah. I don't think that necessarily leads to the best herald because I feel like we've often been able to, I feel like our notes are often like, it picked up as a win along. Yeah. And I think it's because we're just jumping in at the more playful parts of the second beats or like more active or there's more people in them. So it's more reactive and more people are able to establish the base reality. It's hard to like both be totally real and convincing as the base reality and then also set someone out to be unusual in the first beat. Yeah. You're just doing a lot more work with all of those two people. I think that's maybe my biggest point. Like and then also with coaching and then with doing it. It's like, I want to believe this and if I don't believe it, it's going to be hard for me to really buy the unusual thing. Yeah. That was Build the Pierro. It's not always easy to figure out the clearest initiation for every premise. It's a good thing to practice when you're watching other teams perform. How would you initiate each idea from the opening? Doing that regularly will make it easier for you to think of the same thing when you're on the back line. You should probably have initiations ready for at least two different ideas from your opening, just in case. Watch shows and practice that. Take note of the best initiations you see. The ones where the improvisers are able to just slide right into the scene and start having fun. Practice that when you're watching shows so that you'll do it naturally when you're performing in shows. Again, be clear with that first line and help out your scene partner and teammate. Think about how much you enjoy responding to an initiation that's clear and fun and specific. Give your scene partner that same feeling. That was episode eight. First beats. Second beats are all together normally around nine to ten minutes. That's a good chunk of your herald. Initiate them clearly and then let go of the opening and start creating a great scene. It's the best way to make sure that the rest of the herald is great. Please rate and review the podcast on iTunes and if you have any feedback for me, please send it to [email protected] that's C-U-R-T-I-S-R-E-T-H-E-R-F-O-R-D. Thanks to everyone who has already done so. Thanks to everyone who has part of this episode. Alex Dixon. Hi, I'm Jenny SanAngelo. Bill DePiro. And I'm Curtis Rutherford.