059 – Triggers

[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to the "Pierre Desire" podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey, guys, it's Dr. Ted Roberts. I hope you'll join me on September the 15th at Good Shepherd Community Church where a "Pierre Desire" men's conference, a time where you pursue a life of integrity, strength and leave a legacy of real significance. Learn to really kick the enemy's tail. Here is your GoToPierre Desire.org/events. Enjoy the podcast. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hey there. I'm your host Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co-host, Nick Stumbo. Good to the last drop. There it is. That was one of the smoothest ones I've heard you do. That was good. Smooth. That should be my new focus. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. We're talking smooth jazz. It's kind of at the point, Trevor. I'm just saying random things. Because greetings or introductions, I think I've used them all at this point. So now it's like, I just have to expand into any phrase in the English vocabulary is fair game. Let's talk about this for a second. I saw a commercial the other day with Alexander Graham Bell as a character, and he said, "Hoi, hoi." Are you serious? When he answered the phone, and I said, "Hey, Nick told us about that a few episodes ago." Thanks to that listener that gave us such great knowledge on that one. That's fantastic. So today, we're not just going to joke about Nick's intros the whole time. We have Debbie Flanagan with us. Debbie's a licensed pastor, one of our clinicians on staff, and she's awesome. We're excited to have her. So welcome back, Debbie. Thank you. Happy to be here. Excited to talk about this subject. It's very big and broad. And-- Yes. I'm excited to talk about it because it's-- hopefully I don't talk too fast. Sure. OK. So I think on the podcast app, sometimes you can slow it down to go half time. So she's talking too fast. You have the ability. That's how I'm talking really to that. That's right. So today, we're going to be talking through triggers. So we'll define that in just a minute. But it's understanding and learning how to manage those triggers in life. It's such an important piece to our sobriety and really just being a healthy person overall. So today, we're going to be talking through what they are, how to manage them, and what it looks like to live in a healthy way with your triggers. So Debbie, let's just start with this. When we say triggers, what exactly are we talking about? Well, clinically defined is a trigger. Is anything that creates a flashback in your mind, or a memory that goes back to an original trauma? But how that plays out in the mind, of course, is we've been activated somehow. Something happened to us. An event occurred, and our nervous system gets activated to propel us to an awareness. It wakes us up. It kind of makes us alert. So that's how we would define a trigger. Got it. So it sounds like your saying triggers can come in a lot of shapes and sizes and varieties that we may have triggers that are connected to wounds and trauma. And we may have triggers that are connected to just ways that we've been acting out sexually, just anything that gets us going in towards that direction. That's correct. You know, a lot of times they say, well, we confuse sometimes temptation with a trigger. Attemptation is more that is something that we get exposed to, or we're attracted to, but it's not activating the nervous system. So we're able to go, oh, I can take that captive, or I can move on from that and not be triggered by it. A trigger is that actual activation of the nervous system. So your body feels something, or it's aware that something is dangerous, or it's a warning sign. But the trigger is more of an internal physical feeling. So it's not just a sexual thing. It can also be an emotional thing. Absolutely. And those are, that's a very important distinction to make as a person starts looking at what's triggering need to do this many times. It's not what they're visually seeing as being the trigger, but it's what sets them up for being able to-- it's what sets them up for not being able to take that captive-- Sure. --that thought captive and move on. Well, the way I think about what we're trying to do today is everyone experience the temptation. I mean, that's part of being a human being that we are drawn towards things that would violate our conscience, God's law, things we just have committed not to do. And so we can run into a problem where we just think, everyone battles the same stuff, we're all basically the same. But when we're talking about triggers, now we're getting very specific to what triggers you, what is unique to your past, your experiences, to your culture that cause issues for you. And so it's really helping a person identify, what do I specifically have to watch out for? So Debbie, talk us through a little bit about what types of things can become triggers. Because we do have probably the obvious things that someone says, I'm triggered if I see a sexually explicit scene in a movie. But it's much broader than that. So just talk us through the kinds of triggers that there are. Sure, that's a site, of course, is one is things that can cause a trigger. Things that sounds and smells, perceptions of other people, are perception of ourself, sounds, are triggering events as well. Feelings are probably less identifiable until you've actually worked through the process of understanding what a trigger is and been able to touch base with what you're really feeling. I'd like to use an example about how a trigger is in operation. For many women that I see loneliness as a trigger. So you kind of think, well, how could she have identified that? But it took me a while to understand this because it was in my own past that I learned this. Because of my own wounding, I grew up being a very lonely girl. So being the third child and never feeling protected and loved, at least that's what my perception was, my perception of self, then I discovered masturbation. So as a way to comfort myself. And so that continued then on in through adulthood. But it became part of my history that when I feel abandoned or when I felt lonely, the body got triggered to act out this way because that's what the reward center said that I was going, how I was going to be comforted. So that's a way to kind of step back and look at the work that can be done in restoration when you're looking at getting that deep is it wasn't until I tapped into this lonely feeling. OK, how do I then take care of this deep need that I have without using sex to do it with? Well, in the feelings, they just sneak up on you. Like that's been my experience through recovery is that I have to be self aware and I have to keep my head up and my eyes open in order to see these things. Because if I don't, then they're just going to sneak up and grab hold and then stuff never goes well when triggers grab a hold. Right. And so once you become aware and you start working on the sobriety and of an understanding, OK, wow, I just got triggered for me. Reading the Bible one day, I got triggered. And I thought, what was going on? Read the Bible. But when I was able to step back and look at that, look at that read relapse, what happened earlier in that week? What happened during the day? And when I realized, wow, here I am a single woman. I own this house. I'm responsible there. OK, that weighed on me because I just did the yard work alone, feeling lonely. My mom came over and she was a little bit critical about something that all those things added up to my perception that I'm not good enough now. I'm lonely and abandoned. And that triggered that episode no matter what I was doing. So now I have plans that when I'm triggered, I can not act out. What am I feeling? I'm feeling lonely. I'm feeling I need to go connect up somewhere. Well, I think this is really helpful because all have men talk to me and they say, well, I don't think I have triggered. I'm just bored, you know? And then my mind drifts and I go towards these things. But we can help them walk back and see, will you learn as a teenager that this is how to handle boredom? Because when you were bored after school and known was home and you would find your dad's magazines or you'd pop in that movie, your brain learned when I'm bored what fills up that boredom is this sexual acting out. And so now your trigger is boredom. It's not just that you're bored. It's that you've created this trigger in your life. And the awareness of that really gives us then the ability to start looking at OK, how do I handle this differently? That's exactly right. That's exactly what happens. The narrow pathway of your brain has been conditioned through your board. There's this feeling I'm being on board and it triggers the arousal. And it triggers the reward center. Oh, just do this and you won't be bored. And that's a very-- it's a felt sense. And that's what's hard to sometimes in recovery to get to that point where you're actually feeling. Why am I triggered just now? Because it does. You're right. It sneaks up on you. Well, and I think that something that's important to identify, too, is that it's not just one trigger that you have. You could have an array of triggers that you have to be aware of. So it's not like you identify one, which will get to it in a minute. But it's not that you identify one. And you're just cake for the rest of your life. You've got some. And some may develop as time goes on in your life as well. So let's say someone's now intrigued. They're in. They're like, OK, you got me hooked for this episode. How would someone identify these triggers? So now that we know what they are, what types they might be, how does someone go about finding those in their own life? The first thing that we do is, I mean, that we, is to identify what your pattern is. And the best way to start there is to, when you've had a relapse, or if you're thinking about relapse, and you really take those that time to really tap into what you're feeling. That's on your faster scale, sometimes looking at those, looking at that faster scale gives you a little bit of an idea, and then maybe be a detective and really profile yourself. Through that, that, that faster scale, because what you're doing is profiling your personal struggle, because, because triggers are based on past trauma, or past wiring that you've wired in there, it's personal to you. So you're going to have your own pathway. And so that's really important. And then your yellow circle is to set yourself up going, oh, that's what's happening to me. I get bored. The middle circle. Yes, the middle circle. Yeah, the middle circle. And being able to then to, to say, these are things that I need to set some boundaries around. When I feel myself being bored, I need to do something else. I need to find a healthy way to cope. And sometimes I use an example if I can from my own life, because sometimes it's personal in a sense. It doesn't really have to do a sexual addiction, but it has to do with a other kind of addiction. I talked about my family of origin and how I felt unprotected and unsafe. Well, this translated for me in that authority figures, never were going to be their for me and protect me. So, you know, through my restoration and through the wounds, I learned that trusting an authority figure was dangerous. And then I had to protect myself. Now imagine being on staff at a large church with Pastor Ted being the senior pastor. You're entering into meetings and he's very structured in his meetings and, you know, and here I am listening to every word making sure I was going to be perfect at it. Well, in person, Dr. Ted is not scary, but because of my fear of authority, he was very big to me. And then with my perfectionism, I would leave those meetings wanting to go eat the biggest hamburger I could find. I could remember thinking, I just want a hamburger. But I'd say, geez, did I say something stupid? I'd always be leaving those meetings going, gosh, I hope he doesn't think I'm an idiot or something and I would just be right myself. But silly as it sounds, that's that trigger that, as my personal trigger from my wounds of the past, you know, be perfect. Don't say anything, think stupid. Otherwise, you're not going to be accepted. Well, you know, fast forward into now, I still have those arenas I walk in. Walking into this podcast, you know, I still feel that steep sense of, uh-oh, here is Nick, my executive director sitting in here too, and that fear, that drive, that trigger to be perfect, it gets triggered. But I have learned that, you know what, I don't have to be perfect. You guys make it easy. So no hamburger for me. No, no, no, no, she did. I really just want to go out and eat a hamburger. No, it goes both ways. Notice how she didn't say she was afraid of me. I'm not, I guess I'm not as important over here to be pretty. Not my boss. Work on that later. Yeah, I think what you're identifying there, Debbie is just so important because we can have many different ways of acting out based on a trigger that sometimes it might lead to overeating or it might lead to an explosion of anger or it could lead to a sexual relapse that, that the triggers lead us in different directions. It's not always the same. But I like what you said earlier that it really is helpful to look at our relapses to figure out the patterns of being triggered because what I like to say is work backwards, work backwards from your relapse. So if a guy says to me, you know, my relapse, I was, I just went too far on my computer and looked at pornography. Well, that's the identifiable relapse, but to ask the question, okay, why were you on your computer? And they say, well, I was alone at work. Okay, well, why, when you were alone at work, were you doing work? Well, I had a big project and I just needed a little break before I worked on that project. So now we're starting to identify some pieces of, you were alone and you were procrastinating on a big project and to say, well, why weren't you working on the project? Well, I was afraid I didn't know how to do it. So now there's some fear in there and you can help a person begin to see the starting point of your relapse wasn't the temptation of like a pornography. It was actually the feelings of fear and procrastination that led you down this path. And so we can do that with all kinds of relapses is just keep working backwards till you get to a point where you can't go any further back and say, oh, maybe those are my triggers, whether it's loneliness, boredom, fear, anxiety, worry, perfectionism, pleasing a boss, all those things we can see as, oh, that's a potential trigger for me. So once we identify these triggers, how do we best deal with them? Is the answer to just avoid these things so we're not triggered anymore or what can we do to handle these triggers in a healthy way? I believe that we will always struggle at some level with especially the emotional triggers. But the remedy is really to go back is like you said, is the process for working that through is to understand your particular pattern and take ownership of that and make a plan. Make a plan when you're in a really good place to say, you know what, when I recognize that trigger, when I feel that my heart start beating or when I feel that sense of shame come up or that fear, then I need, here's what I need to do. I'm, here's my plan. I'm going to call my guys or I'm going to call my gals and I'm going to say, you know what, I think I've been triggered. I'm feeling some fear of pain and talk about the incident, you know, my boss said this or my, I left home in the morning, my wife and I are in conflict really because it's those emotional triggers that set you up for those sexual triggers. It makes you more vulnerable to those sexual triggers. I mean, let's just say that your trigger is seeing a gal and short shorts, you say, I see that and it's and I'm drawn to it. So so and so you're driving home. So instead of thinking, okay, wait a minute, that's a trick. Okay, I don't, you know, turn my eyes, refocus and just go, go home. Instead I circle the block knowing that that prostitutes might stand up there. I'm just going to look. So because you have to look back at the morning and say, gosh, did I, you know, in looking at that, you look back at your what happened in the morning, what happened? Did your boss say say something? Did your wife and you have a argument? Those things set you up to be vulnerable to take, to not be able to just go, oh, okay, I'm going to turn, turn my head and be okay or circle, circling the block. So that's a very important thing to kind of go, I need to recognize that, you know, my boss and I got an argument and I'm feeling, I'm feeling some shame or criticized. I need to be aware that that's a trigger for me. Well, and I think that what you're, what I love that you said is, is involving other people in that process and that's something that I've, I've been finding a lot of, I've been finding a lot of success in recently. I went out on the boat with some friends. We just went out for a day and I remember hearing, I think it was Dr. Ted or Tyler Chinson, our clinical director, one of them said that when, you know, you're triggered when you feel like you're a little kid, you go back to those moments where you feel like you don't have control over your body or emotions, you just go back to this unaware child and I felt like going out on the boat was that for me. And so the entire day, I'm like, what is going on? Like we're having a great time. These are fantastic friends I'm hanging out with. And so I was able to throughout the day kind of identify, I don't like being talked down to. I'm not good at water sports and I position myself naturally by being bad at it as, you know, underneath someone who can talk down to me. So what I tried and I was nervous to, but what I tried is the friend I was driving with. I was just like, Hey, man, this is where I'm at. This is kind of my day. And I'm thankful he didn't shame me at all. He totally was like, Hey, I get that. I understand that. And he even jokingly is like, I'm not talking down to you when I'm saying this. And I was appreciative of that, but I found that the sooner I can involve other people in my processing of that information, the better. Absolutely. And you just had on something else that is very important for people to understand, especially if there's trauma in your past, is this deep sense of powerlessness can be a trigger. You're just feeling powerless or inadequate somehow. That could be a trigger. So those are important things for you to examine in your history. Do a profile on yourself and say, where have I been uniquely wounded? What behaviors have I been using to make myself feel better? What words do I say? What behaviors do I have? And that will give you that great profile. Well, at a point I'd like to make of what you guys are bringing up is that is our emotional triggers that give physical triggers their power. Because if you ask yourself the question, you know, I have a cell phone, a smartphone, I have a computer around me all the time. Why is it that 99% of the time, a temptation to look at something I shouldn't is powerless and I don't even worry about it. But then other times I all of a sudden just something grabs me and I want to act out, well, more often than not, it's because there's an emotional trigger that's been put into play that I feel like I let down my boss. Now I'm feeling a sense of failure. And suddenly that same physical trigger to click on a link that 99% of the time I wouldn't is so powerful why what's the emotional side. And so seeing how these two play together, I think really can become a key to success because we don't just learn to avoid the physical trigger. It's seeing that emotional side as well that becomes so, so important. - Yeah, that is absolutely right. That's the importance of that accountability and support team. When you're in a habit of either calling the guys or in group disclosing the things that trigger you, either it's emotional or you're a physical a sight or a sound or a smell, it's important because it diffuses that power. And it beat then you are less tempted. You have more, I guess control. You have more self-resolve to look away or to self-control to, oh, I wanna click there, no, I'm not. And that's the power of our emotions is, it's medicating, these addictions are medicating and they're medicating some deeper emotional wound. - So we might have answered this question a little bit just throughout, but I think that it's important to ask, when we've identified these triggers, do these triggers remain like constant throughout our entire life and will something that has maybe triggered us at one point in life continue to trigger us at other points in life as well? - I think I believe that we will always have those emotional triggers at some level. But as we become more aware of them, they are less powerful and we have better access to those feelings. And so obviously it just go back to self-esteem. I mean, learning about those codependent behaviors if I need somebody else to affirm me, my boundaries having really good boundaries goes a long way to protecting you against being vulnerable to those triggers, emotional triggers. The sexual triggers or the physical acting out things become less and less powerful and that's where self-discipline self-control comes in is that I want to make sure that if I understand what my emotional triggers are, I can set internal boundaries, how I protect myself against those vulnerabilities and I can operate in this world. I mean, we're gonna be exposed to things all day long. There are visual sight sounds, temptations out there and the more we can resolve and find, and the more we can get structure around those, boundaries around those internal triggers, the better we are. - Yeah, and if I understand the neurochemistry side as I've heard Dr. Ted and Heather Colbe speak about it, you know, our thoughts and actions are creating these pathways in our brain. So when I'm feeling an emotional trigger, discomfort over failure or rejection and however I choose to deal with it is creating a pathway. And so if it's a healthy pathway and I continue to choose it, I'm strengthening that healthy pathway. But if I've had an unhealthy pathway of leading to relapse or acting out sexually, I may have created a highway for that behavior because I did it so much, or even a super highway if it was a really deeply ingrained pattern. Well, as my brain changes, as I now begin to choose healthy pathways to react to those triggers, it's kind of like that old highway begins to deteriorate a little bit. A road closed sign goes up. You know, there's some guard rails that now have been put up and it's harder and harder to get to because I'm not choosing it. But if at any point in my life, I become determined to move back towards on health, I can crash through the warning signs and the road closed and I can travel back down that highway because in a sense my brain still has it there. It's just been using it less and less and less, but there's always that possibility of reopening it. And so I think we're on our guard, we stay self-aware. But more likely we're gonna be battling some new things in new seasons of life because as we're establishing health, maybe the old patterns have by and large disappeared. But now, like in my case, sexually acting out isn't the battle, but it is things like just numbing out to TV or overeating late at night. Those are because they're more acceptable, they're easier to run to when I'm feeling emotional with this comfort. And I've gotta be aware of those now, more than I did the sexual pieces. - Well, and two, not letting your guard down, knowing that if you're gonna develop potentially new triggers in life, like these things aren't gonna replace themselves, they're gonna start stacking. I mean, I've got a one and a half year old at home, we play with Legos all the time. Like it's gonna get taller and taller if these triggers become a thing. And so just because you have a new one doesn't mean an old one isn't there. 'Cause maybe that old trigger is kind of, really, they can be tied together, they can be a part of the same thing and different situations and circumstances can poke either one. - And a little secret about your brain that plays a big part in this is that a healthy brain, when it's alerted to something, you know, whether it's a danger out there or a visual trigger, a healthy brain will become aware. It'll light up and say, I'm gonna learn something new. There's something going on that I need to be aware of. And their brain prepares itself to learn. But a wounded brain or a traumatized brain does not light up that way. It lights up the amygdala, which then will rely on the autobiographical patterning. And so learning new things is doubly hard. So that's why understanding what your autobiographical history says and what my pattern of behavior is is important 'cause you need to be able to intervene. When I want to do this, oh wait a minute, that's because I patterned it here, I need to lower my fear, lower my pain and be able to accept this new tool, this new tool of learning to identify fears and feelings and all of the recovery tools that are offered for recovery. So it's very fascinating about the near chemistry. - Yeah, that's cool. - So that it gets harder and harder to take the machete and open up that old pathway. So it's a lot of work. - Machete, it's the first time that word's been used on the podcast, that's good. (laughing) Well, one of the new tools that many people are learning to use is a group. And we've talked about this a little bit, but for so many people, the private world of our emotions and the fears we have is just something we've been taught maybe explicitly by people around us or just implicitly by our culture that you go deal with that by yourself. And so the idea that I'm gonna open up to a group and I'm gonna start to be honest about triggers and be honest about my fears, that might be a challenge for some. And so Debbie, could you just speak to that a little bit more about the role that a group has or maybe an accountability partner or even a spouse in helping us in this area of identifying triggers and handling triggers in a healthy way? - Sure. We always go back to the thing that, you know, sexual addiction is an intimacy disorder and why we say that or why we feel that way is because, you know, in a healthy marriage and in a healthy interaction, you have this emotional intimacy where you are opening up with your partner telling them how you feel, you offer up your own opinions and what you're also doing is listening to your partner say those things or your spouse and you're not judging them for their emotions but you're entering into their world. That creates the intimacy that only enhances your sexual union. But what happens because intimacy was created, that fear of intimacy that gets created in childhood is a lot harder to access because we, sex becomes the replacement for that intimate connection because of the fear of it, exposing who I am, telling you what I feel has been painful in the past so that pain gets associated with, I'm gonna avoid that. And so sex is just a replacement for the intimacy that they really want. So your group is gonna be very important as you experiment and risk a little bit because this is that safe place where you're, you're not gonna be judged for what you're saying and that, so therefore you start exercising that vulnerability muscle and so you learn to tolerate the uncomfortable feelings of being vulnerable. And that's why group is so important and to tap in to find that safe group where you're able to risk, take that risk. - You know, and I've talked about this a lot, I think on the podcast, the idea that someone else sharing in group oftentimes brings a lot of awareness to my own life, seeing that they struggle with this one thing or triggered by that. There's a lot of times in group where I sat there and I group member said something, this is triggering or this was something that triggered me this week. And I have to like write it down. I'm like, oh, man, yeah, like me too. Like I totally struggle with that. And I wouldn't have had that unless I had a safe place where we could be open and vulnerable and share that stuff. And so I think that making sure to understand that you're healing is tied to a community experience and how beneficial that can be for just your own personal healing. - Well, and just the power there is in a commitment that has been expressed to someone else and the invitation for accountability. Because if I'm just saying to myself, okay, when I'm feeling down and I wanna just lash out an anger, I'm not gonna do it. That's probably not gonna help very much. But if I go to my spouse and say, you know, honey, I realized when I've had a rough day at work, I get really snappy with the kids. And so this week I'm just committing to really work on leaving work at work. And when I come home to engage with the kids and if I start to feel that anger coming, I'm just gonna take a brief time out. I'm gonna go out to the garage or up to a room and just kinda takes some deep breaths. So I can stay as a calm, engaged parent. And knowing that we've told our spouse then, I'm gonna be much more aware of my actions and am I actually following through on those things. So it. just that the power of that expressed commitment really is something we need to take advantage of. And you know Nick that's a great example too of self-care. You're realizing that you activated somehow, you realize that you've been triggered and that you're seeing maybe irritability to cope. So you go and take care of yourself. You go, you acknowledge, I'll be back in a moment, I need I need to do this and that's how self-care works. And one of the powers of accountability group and we see this, I see this more so in accountability groups than I ever see it in the counseling sessions is exactly what you said Trevor. A person, somebody else in group says something you're like, oh me too and you write that down. And that's the power of people talking together and acknowledging and being intimate really. You're saying what you feel, somebody else is hearing it not judging you for it. And that's the great power of a group. So this has been super insightful. I feel like this has been really helpful and I think a lot of listeners are going to benefit greatly just from hearing about this stuff and hearing your perspective. So we're going to end the episode with a question we ask every time and it's what are some final tips or encouragements you might have and specifically regarding around the idea of triggers. First of all, know what situations you get triggered in. Be that detective and do the profile because then you can set up those boundaries that you need and communicating those to your group in a safe place so that they can ask you those important questions like how are you doing with this particular thing and be specific about it because the more specific you are the less power that trigger is going to have on you. And to really know what are those internal, those emotional triggers and be able to talk about those things and if you need to, if you need help getting to those understand that. Sometimes counseling is important because they can help you walk through those issues and making a plan ahead of time. How am I going to deal with that situation when I you know, I pass this billboard every morning and I'm drawn to it. What do I do? My plan is when I'm having an argument if I'm not in a good place, if I'm on my anxiety and the faster scale, I take a different road to work. Make a plan ahead of time of how you're going to deal with those everyday things you're exposed to. And I think my final encouragement would be to say that triggers do not reveal our character. Triggers reveal our past and our history really. And we're going to talk about this more next week with the arousal template but one of the things we can run into as we begin really assessing and identifying triggers is that sense of what's wrong with me. And why am I, you know, have such this fear? Why am I always so anxious? Why do I get turned on by this? Why do I have sexual thoughts when I see that and just can beat ourselves up with I must be pervert, I must be bad, I'm evil, I'm wicked and maybe we don't say that out loud to other people but we're feeling it inside. And that's where we need to take that deep breath and say these triggers are not revealing who I am. They're not revealing my character. They're helping me see what I've experienced and what my brain has learned because of those experiences. And so if you can give yourself that grace to let go of the shame and say this isn't about who I am, I just need to see the impact these things have had in my life. Then it'll give you the freedom to really get honest and see things that maybe you haven't wanted to look at. So just encourage it. This isn't a statement about your character and really dive into this because there's so much we can learn about our behaviors when we really get deep into these triggers. And I'll go back to the group experience for me. It's just that being honest and vulnerable is going to be beneficial for you. It always will be. But understanding that that can play a significant role in the health of someone else. And so making sure that when you're sharing these things, it's not just you dumping all your stuff on everyone else so that you feel better. Your vulnerability can lead the way for a lot of people. You get to go first, you get to show what true vulnerability authenticity looks like, but you get to be a part of someone else's healing as well. So don't forget that truth. Yes, that's the second tap of having an intimate relationship is being able to listen to somebody else without judgment and to empathize. So yeah. Yeah, that could be a whole another episode right there. Yeah, Debbie, this has been fantastic. Thanks for talking us through this. Yeah, that was awesome. Thanks for letting me do this. It's been like I said, there's a lot to say, but hopefully hopefully if there's any questions people have, they'll be texting in or contacting us. Yeah. So like we said, you're always going to live with triggers. If you don't see them, it doesn't mean that they're not there. It means that you haven't found them yet. So make sure that you really go out and equip yourself and some of the tools that will post the faster scale in the three circles, we tools that can help with that. But it all starts with being open, vulnerable, being self-aware and then intentionally working on this stuff. You can't do it unless you're intentional. So make sure you know, though, that being vulnerable is never easy and being honest about your triggers is not always fun. There's courage in that that you have to step forward. So if you want to be healthy and you want to be holy, you got to help, you got to help yourself and help other people identify triggers so that we know how to live really a Christ-centered life. So Debbie, you're awesome. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you for having me. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website PureDesire.org. You can follow us on social media @PureDesire. PDMI. Once again, it's @PureDesire. PDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.org. 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