059 - Counterpart Photos Founder: Beyond Beautiful - Finding Your Own Way of Seeing

We're listening to more than photos, the podcast for photographers and filmmakers who care about their art and the life that allows them to build. We're Brad and Jen, and after 15 years in the wedding industry, we've learned that success isn't just about talent. It's about how you run the business, nurture your creativity, and live your life each day outside the business too. Every week we break down the truth about pricing, mindset, creativity, and growth, and make sense of what everyone else overcomplicates, so you can run a business with confidence, serve with intention, and create work that moves people. Let's dive in. Brady, I am so excited for this conversation because I think that you have such an interesting way of seeing wedding photography and photography in general. You are not only an incredible and talented photographer yourself, but you are also the founder of counterpart photos where you've spent years looking through other people's work finding photographers with really distinct voices and even putting contemporary work and contemporary wedding photography alongside photographs from decades ago. I think that this gives you such an interesting perspective on what makes a photograph actually matter and what makes it last. I really want to just get inside that brain of yours today and talk about how you see all of this. But before we do all of that, before we get into your journey, I would just love to hear about you, who are you outside of this industry, outside of this job, and give us a little glimpse at what life looks like right now. Okay. I am from the Netherlands, originally, although I haven't lived here for like 15 years. I'm visiting my mom right now, so I'm saying here, hey, I always had a camera when I was young. So, for surprise, plastic, two handles, and I've always been photographing and I studied documentary photography in the Netherlands at an art school and then I went on to live in South Africa because I did my internship there and met my husband there. So, photography has been a really big part of my life and alongside that I were my serious question to start with, I love having friends over and gathering and cooking and traveling and being a mom, so family life is very important at the moment, so I think that's me. Well, you have a partner, Dianne, how long have you guys been married? Married, not that long actually, and we just got married so that he can live in Europe easily. So, we just literally signed a paper, the most unromantic writing for two or three years. Isn't that the most for most waiting photography? Yeah, so, but we've been together since 2008. Yeah, wow. Yeah, so we've, and then we got kids first and then got, you know, like we did everything in Topsy, Terry, so yeah. That's so fun. Well, you're splitting time between a few countries right now, Netherlands is home, you've spent time in France and South Africa and Australia. I know this might be a big question and I don't want to break it open too far, but where do you feel, feels most home at the moment? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm really drawn between countries and feelings also, maybe we'll talk about the state also, but I've really been figuring out where I do belong, but I'm funny enough. I lived in South Africa for almost 10 years before moving to Australia and I think that's really funny enough that South Africa feels like home, but then I'm also very European, I'm very drawn to like the Mediterranean, like way of life. So that's why I would decide to move to France also, but Dutch at heart. So yeah, there's not one answer to that question. Sure. Do you feel like there's any, I don't know, similarities. I haven't been to South Africa, been all over Europe, but do you feel like there's anything about South Africa that reminds you of Europe or parts of the Mediterranean? Maybe like the living by the coast, what I relate to with the Mediterranean life or so. But for me, I find that people are really special in South Africa. It's because of the history, of course, and South Africa is a very complicated country, and I like to be bit surprised by country, that's why I wasn't too impressed with Australia, excuse me, sorry to all Australians, but I was missing culture there and also like, you know, the visual, like what like a city looks like, you're just because it's not such an old country, and South Africa is not an old country either, you know, we don't have that interesting architecture, but it's culturally, it's super interesting. I think I really love the combination, so I wouldn't say that you can't really compare the two, but I love the combination of being European and then loving Africa. Yeah, you have to come and judge yourself, like everyone, I think South Africa just stays with you when you're visited. It's funny, you say that we had a student just recently that we worked with from South Africa who was begging for you to come on the podcast, which is so fun. I was like, hey, she's actually planned, but she said something similar in it. It's really interesting, I think the way that you talked about it having a complicated history and that there are parts that surprise you, that same rhetoric seems to repeat itself among people that live there and not to mention the landscape is just unbelievable, so, yeah, it's gotten on our list to go visit. It's very special, when people, some people come to me and it's like a shell I go to South Africa or Australia and I'm like, go to South Africa, like, you know, it's cheaper, it's closer to get into the landscape changes a lot quicker than an Australian landscape. Yeah, it's super interesting, go to South Africa. Well, I can't help but hear this intuitiveness in your answers being really connected to what you like, what you don't like, what feels like home, being a curious person, wanting to be surprised, and you said that photography became a way for you to learn how to pay attention, to slow down and to notice, and I'm curious to know if you remember when photography started becoming that for you. I think I really figured it out through weddings, you know, like, for me, the interesting things is really the little things that happen at a wedding, and then you take that with you, and also you go through life, and suddenly you see, like, how the light touches something, or, you know, suddenly you have this feeling, this, like, this perfect afternoon, and then, you know, you notice that, and then you think, because I'm a photographer, I like have this hyper, like, focus on, like, the visual and what things feel like, and, you know, what it looks like, and, and that, I'm, like, so grateful for that, that I go through life, like this, you know, like, enjoying it, like, fully, and you, like, really, like, I'm just aware of your surroundings, but, but I really, like, it's not like a moment that I can pinpoint that, but I think definitely by thinking about photography a lot with which the weddings have, like, really taught me, is that I realized, you know, like, just that act of noticing, it's, like, such a beautiful way to do life. You know, before we jumped on and hit record, you said something around the Netherlands, perhaps, not feeling, like, home to you, and I'm, I'm curious to know if, when you were younger, there were things that you were noticing that maybe others weren't, and, you know, just trying to, like, get into the heart of, what led you to that school to become, to study documentary photography and was noticing that, that first little spark, or was it, was it something different? So, so, when I was young, I thought it was going to be a fashion designer, and I would do, like, fashion shoots with my friend, and even, like, went on to try, get into the fashion school here in the Netherlands, but it was rejected. And then, Daisy said, like, you should maybe do, like, like, pre-art academy course for, like, four years to figure out what you want to do. And, but going back, you know, those, those shoots we were doing, I've got, like, all the fashion shoots, but what I really was drawn to, like, a photo that I actually enlarged was, like, the backstage shot of my friend, like, changing dresses. So, it was always, like, I'm actually not interested in the actual photograph, but in, like, the back story, and the actual moment, what, instead of setting something up. So, I think I was really, and also, you know, always when I was shooting in the Netherlands, and, you know, it was always the day-to-day life, you know, just the mundane stuff that I really noticed that was special. During my course, I think the most special series I did was my photography, my grandma, and for, like, three months, every Wednesday or something, I had to go to my grandma and photograph her because you could choose who you wanted to photograph, and I decided to make a book on my grandma. And that's the most special project that came out of this course, like, for four years, we would do different things, but looking back on it, that's what is the most special. So, I think, for me, didn't just appreciate the day-to-day, like, and the documentary aspect has always been in my work from the beginning, and I've been cycling now that I've been visiting the Netherlands a lot this summer. I mean, cycling a lot and wondering, like, why? Like, where that comes from? I don't really have an answer to that question, but it's like, why am I drawn to this mundane and find it so interesting, I grew up in a little town in northern Michigan, which is in the Great Lakes region. of the state stand. It was a polished Catholic town, very, very small. I graduated with 26 people, so really, really small. And a bit of my story resonates a lot with what you're saying. And I remember feeling that shared sense that I don't know if this is home to me, maybe Northern Michigan, but maybe not this place. And I really started to feel that when I would bring things that I noticed into conversation the mundane or just asking, I wonder why people do that? And even just questioning the behavior, questioning the tradition or the culture was felt like a very unsafe thing to explore. And so, yeah, I've often wondered was the camera was documenting away for me, like a safe place for me to ask those questions with some kind of medium sense asking it, with other people wasn't necessarily a safe place to go. And of course, stepping outside of where I grew up, similar to yourself, moving away from where home was, yeah, really opened up a lot more of that curiosity and eventually found people to explore those things with. When did you, what did you do, your schooling, your study, documentary photography? In the Netherlands, in New York. Yeah, it was like real like art academy kind of vibe. So, so more storytelling instead of like how to use the camera kind of. And when you, did you start traveling outside of the Netherlands after school, is that when it started? So, so I think the traveling, I think I can definitely, I can name, so my father is passed away now, but he used to be like an outdoor teacher and I grew up like climbing mountains and like doing for like the kids' parties, we would do like survival weekends. And we would always go to holiday on France. And I think my best memories for my childhood is like going on holiday in France and, you know, doing all these activities and and being outdoor and with the family. And I think that's where my curiosity comes from for different countries and different cultures because that looking back at like growing up, like those are the best memories by far. And I think they made a big impact in how I, how I do life now. Yeah, that's what I was just going to ask is being a part of different cultures and seeing so many different ways of communication and how people celebrate. I wonder if that's protected you from, I don't know, developing or arriving at, you know, the, the same conclusion of what a wedding is, is supposed to look like. Do you feel that? Again, rephrase the question just on the side. Yeah, being a part of different cultures, seeing different ways that people celebrate. You know, when you grow up in a single area and see how weddings or celebrations go, like this, this is the path, this is what a wedding is supposed to look like, but you have been immersed in so many different cultures around the entire world and I can't help but wonder if it's allowed you to see, I don't know, a bigger picture of what weddings can be or what, or yeah, just not, not so tunnel vision done one way of doing things. Yeah. So, so I think actually be, so, so growing up from a very young age, I knew that I never wanted to keep on living in the Netherlands. So I think growing up like in this perfect bubble, you know, what the Netherlands is, I think I really was interested in like what else is there, you know, even like going to like, you know, the Academy, I didn't, there wasn't Academy closer to home, but I wanted to go like in another bigger city, you know, I didn't want to stay close close to home and and I think I'm just always being so curious to to see other, other cultures and to meet other people and I've really been like open to everything and it's also like I really want to experience everything, but then like what it really is like, so I like for like a wedding, I'm very curious to how they do weddings, I don't want to tell them how to pose or how to do things, like I say like I am there the whole day, like I don't have to tell you how to do your wedding, like surprise me because that's way more interesting to me than me telling you how to do a wedding, because then you know, every wedding that I should is going to be the same, like for me it's way more interesting if they do it differently and then you know, I'm like lucky enough because you know, I have like lives between different countries to like shoot destination weddings and then suddenly like the other month I found myself in Lebanon and like there was still like bumps like falling on Beirut like that same week and I realized like I will go, like it's like a lot more has to happen for me not to go because I want to have this experience and meet those people and see like what the light's doing or what the landscape looks like and see how they celebrate. So I think I'm just very because I grew up in Netherlands and I'm like a person that just wants to explore, I'm very open to different different ways and different celebrations or whatever. Yeah, and open to risk, it sounds like apparently so I was like oh my god, I was like I felt like a live photographer, I was like I'm gonna like I can understand as I knew I understood like war photographers was like this is like so exciting it's like okay like my mom was saying like oh you're bearing every responsible your mom and I didn't say much to my mom but I was like I'm gonna go like no matter what and that surprised me also because I I'd never been such a situation before and it was fine it was fine yeah you're here you're back yeah this might be random but do you have siblings? I've got an older brother okay does he have the same like bigger or thirst for life? no no he could be the may he could be the mayor of the small town birth order is so real and I see it in my kids yeah wow I think it's cool are you talking about you know your late father and his fascination with the outdoors and exploring and also you maybe appreciating where you grew up knowing that it's not necessarily something that you wanted to stay in you wanted to get out you wanted to explore and that didn't just look like you know going to pretty France but putting yourself in the position of risk and surprise and you talk about this on your site I'm gonna read it you said my role is not to manufacture meaning but to recognize it when it appears and I think as wedding photographers who are stepping into events or we have these couples looking at us saying you know what should we do I'm just curious to know if you could break that open for us like what does that actually look like when we are stepping into something that might feel like we do have to manufacture in some moments like how do you how do you keep that boundary alive in your creativity when we started shooting weddings I did it together with my husband because he's a photographer too and and then like for instance to take the couple shoots during the wedding as an example we would do like he would do like we would scout and he would do like a shot and then I would do a shot and you know that's how we would do it but it never felt organic to me like the way we we've always you know I haven't really changed much about how our photo for wedding like it's always about the people and that's how we started also and then suddenly it was this couple shoots you know it was like suddenly it was like we're like breaking up the day and do this do this fashion shoot you're like and it didn't feel right for long but you know we thought you know this is how it's done this is how people do it and then you know we moved to Australia and it was COVID and you know there were no weddings in Australia my husband we had got a baby and then my husband just had to get another job and then finally the weddings started going and then I just decided to shoot by myself and then I realized like I'm not interested in manufacturing things what I'm super interested in is them and how they are and I can capture it like I'm a good for whatever happens I will get good for give me a couple in love on their wedding day and then I find some good light and then they can enjoy that moment and I can capture it and maybe sometimes I just quickly asked them to look into the camera and that it was it was like that felt right to me personally you know in my way of working so it was more that I I don't think that I can bring more in my photographs by manufacturing something then by actually recognizing what what is real and then capturing that is is more interesting to me yeah I think a lot of this can resonate with this but it's a complex because we can talk about this really practical really yeah there's no risk in talking about it but when you're kind of dropped in the middle of a moment and you know people are looking at you to perform as a photographer and to create images for them and also like as an artist we still want to make something we want authorship over our craft and over the images that we make and yeah I guess I mean you were just that way up north talking about you know developing a unique and artistic voice and do you ever feel that tension between wanting to just be a witness to your couples and then also you know wanting to be an artist to create as well and how do you find that like relationship playing out does that question make sense yeah but but I don't I don't have the feeling anymore I for me it's not the couple shoots coming then it's not for me okay this is my time to shine this now I'm going to perform you know now this is me like, I don't have that. And it's, it's amazing. I love it. And I tell them, like, my couples know. And, and, and for instance, in Lebanon, they said we don't want to do a couple shoots. And I'm like, it's your wedding day. It's fine with me, you know? And then they are the most loving couple. And I get these amazing photographs during the ceremony when he's just looking at her. And like, when this like, speech is being held, they're like kissing and hugging. And, you know, and it's like, that's all I need. Like, I don't, it's not my wedding day. I don't need to shine with, with the portrait shoot, you know? I'm looking for the real connection. And, and if we do a portrait shoot and, and like, people are a little bit nervous, then it's fine with me. Also, they can be nervous for a little bit. Like, I'm not going to, like, really talk into them or to, like, feel them super comfortable. It's like, then I capture that. What's happening? But, but, you know, the way I do it, it's so low-key. And we're just having a nice time day, having a moment to actually take a breather. And I don't feel that I have to do something special. And I think my photo's gotten better by doing it that way, you know, for me. It's, so when I do mentoring, I talk about this a lot. It's like, you have to find a way out to photograph a wedding. That is you, you know? Like, it has to feel right to you. So, if you want to really do, like, those amazing portraits, you have to do that, you know? But I'm not that person. So, I want to do it my way. And then I want people that resonate with that work. And, and then it's good. Yeah. We had a huge shift in how we document weddings. When we started paying attention to what our couples were choosing for the wedding album. And time and time again, they would choose the images that you wouldn't expect them to choose. Which now, of course, in hindsight, makes so much sense because they're meaningful. They're not fabricated. They're not manufactured. And it was a really important lesson for us as as photographers to have that that moment after the wedding with our couples to really cool with them. You know, what's what's most full? What are you going to grab onto? What do you want full spread? What are the what are the moments that matter that we don't even that we didn't even know what was happening? And it really taught us number one, the importance of paying attention at all times, even when you don't know the story. But number two, really leaning into what you're what you're speaking through is just like letting the wedding day breathe and have a life of its own rather than trying to step into a timeline or a way of doing things because that's what you're used to. And yeah, I think that can be difficult for a lot of photographers to trust that process. We've got we had a great conversation with Tracey Jade about this several months ago about that art of of really like stepping back and embracing that awkward. And I think the the quote she gave us was the answer is to literally do nothing. And I loved it. It was such a much yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we we rely on that too in our own photographs of like when when Jen and I have photos of our own family, what we really resonate with, you know, of course, a great portrait every once or every year is fantastic to have. But the things that make up our day is a little moment are really what is most special to us when we were unaware of the camera. Yeah. So yeah, it just has to really come back to who you are as a person and and how that relates to you as a photographer. Like they always tell everyone like there's no rules. You can literally do whatever you want, you know, it's not that you have to do certain things in a certain way. It all has to like really feel right to you and then then go without feeling. Yeah. Well, there's this common thread between your work and this beautiful, I don't even know what to call counterpart a resource. A it feels like home on on Instagram a little bit. And you've spent a lot of time exercising the art of curating artists and sharing incredible work with us and the industry. And you know, you're not only making photographs for yourself and your couples, but you're deciding what photographs really matter and what make it into this curated experience. So yeah, let's before we get into the backstory of counterpart because I would love to hear that. Talk to me about, you know, the exercise of curating other people's work and what that might have taught you about making photographs in your own. So I go, it's vague. It's like intuition, it's it's feeling. So for selecting the artist who are part of counterpart, I know it immediately. I see someone new and they're like, yeah, that they are part of counterpart. Like no question. I'm not looking for beautiful photographs. I'm looking to be surprised and for something interesting and to really find a new way of seeing because we all photograph the same thing like weddings basically the same thing happens all the time. But suddenly someone sees it differently, experiences differently. And then I'm like, wow, you know, I've never seen a photograph like shot, you know, that moment photographed like that, you know, and and that's how how I decide how how people are like part of counterpart. And I think looking at like really good photography definitely influences like your own work and your own way of seeing. And you know, it's like surrounding yourself by good work. You put like little seeds in your mind. You know, it's not that you like think of certain photographs, but you know what's possible. And you like, I don't really say like risky photos, but you try something different from, you know, the normal how, you know, just straight shot like maybe I should do it like this. So like that, you know, or I'm going to try I should just film on this camera that I would normally not use because you know, it's also blood and you know, it's manual focus. And I think you learn to follow your own instinct more and really doing your your own thing more by looking at other people's like really great, great work. Yeah. I really want to try to get more contextual because you said when I when I see a photographer's work and they're not a part of counterpart. I mean, you instantly know and I feel that from the way that you've chosen artists. I remember when Tages was selected for joining. And I thought, of course, like he's not already on the roster. Yeah. Yeah. It was a great example. He emailed me and he's so humble. And he's just like, you know, I don't want to show them online, but he is like just a couple of photos I took at weddings. And I'm like, what? Yeah, you're in like one minute. It's like it was incredible, but obviously he's like seek and it's like a different world, but also, you know, how he shoots it. And and I was amazed. Like I like to dive into different worlds. Maybe, you know, maybe that's like the thread through my life, you know, experience different worlds and different places. And I like to be able to dive into someone else's work and someone else's way of seeing and experience it through their lens. And weddings are particularly difficult to do that because they're pretty, you know, like there's a lot of really great photographers and there's a lot of pretty photos, but I find it harder and harder to really find unique voices within the wedding industry because it's all so beautiful. Like how do you put your stamp on it on someone else's wedding day that's already curated, you know? And yeah, but when I do see it, I know it immediately. Yeah. Well, I think from the other side photographers are asking that same question, how do I find my unique voice when this is already what I'm walking into? We're already walking into kind of like this, I don't know, what do you call it? Like we're walking into a structure that exists. We know what's going to happen. I mean, John Dolan talks about this all the time. Like we already, everyone knows what a wedding day is about and how do you find your way through it and surprise yourself. And yet you're talking about this like you want to be surprised and I almost hear you saying like the only way for me to be surprised is to not insert myself into the day and just to be a witness to it. And I think there's like a beautiful correlation to how you approach a wedding day and also what you're looking for in counterpart artists as well. And there is something so different and how Naomi Gagan photographs the wedding and Tejas and Michaela. John, like all of them have not just a distinct aesthetic but a distinct way of seeing. And yet they are all feel like they belong under this umbrella of counterpart. So it's been really beautiful to see the ways that you've not only protected this resource, but how quickly you say yes when somebody's the right fit. Tell us a little bit of the backstory. Like where did this come from? What was the vision that you're like, okay, I have to do this. Yeah. Well, it's lots of different things that just came together. So already a year ago and I think we have needed started shooting weddings for a long time. I had this conversation with Rebecca and Bruce who also photographed weddings and they are really good friends and we always have great conversations. And I think I mentioned like I want to change the wedding industry and probably hadn't been shooting weddings for that long. But you know, I'd come from like the documentary arts something to say. But you know that that was maybe the seed, you know, that conversation where it all started, you know, and that got me thinking. And then I had a conversation this was 2017. I think it was two brides, two girls getting married. And we just we're just getting ready and we're sitting and they like said like, yeah, you know, we had this conversation like, why get married? Like, what are we doing? Like, why do we do this? And I was like, oh, you know, super interesting conversation never thought about that before. And then I actually started, it's a counterpart started as the idea of interviewing couples that have been married and then let them talk about their marriage. That's how it started. And I had my mom because I was in South Africa at the time and my mom here in the Netherlands and my grandparents have been the past way now. But they've been together for married for more than 65 years. So I had my mother interview, my grandparents about their marriage. And that is the most beautiful thing ever and we still have that recording and that's so special to us, so I recommend that to everyone to do such a thing because that's the most special thing to keep. But it takes forever. They didn't have AI back then and it takes forever to type out an interview. And I was like, I can't do this, and I don't get paid for this. This is not what counterpart is going to be like. But the first husband of my grandmothers, he's the face of counterpart. So I always kept that photo because that's what that's so personal to me. Like he died within the first year in a motor accident. He died the first year of their marriage? Yeah, he died within the first year of their marriage. Yeah, it's a very sad story. But then she's soon met my grandfather after that and they've been together for like a lifetime. So it's a beautiful story in the end, but I always kept his picture, his portrait, which isn't even a wedding portrait, but I love it so much. It's like the profile picture of Instagram still. But then I thought like, okay, I need to find space also for my own work because we started photograph weddings with this documentary approach. And back then it was like Tumblr and cute wedding blogs and everything was cute and they wanted photos of the shoes and the cake and it was all like quite like boxed in. They really had like a list of what they wanted to show. And I was like, I hardly photograph those things. So I basically had to create a platform for my own work also. And then I suddenly found, you know, I remember, I think it was just seppy and the only day were like part of the range finder rising stars and I was like, wow, you know, you know, that instead of like, I've never seen like, where do those people come from? Like this is incredible work, you know, like, and then I just started emailing people and saying like, I have this idea of one day and I still haven't done this, but it's still my idea to like create a gallery show and the book with the artists of contemporary because it's like everyone struggling to call themselves a wedding photographer because it's a connotation that wedding photography has, you know, you say like, I'm a wedding photographer, but not that kind of wedding photographer, you know, I do things differently, but it's like, we can be proud to be wedding photographers because look at the photographs like you take and you don't look at what everyone's doing. It is incredible. Like this belongs in a magazine like we have to like uplift ourselves and show what wedding photography can be. So then I had that idea and I just like kept on going with that and, you know, no one pays or gets paid and it's a total passion project of mine. Like I do this with so much love and, you know, then I just found like the magnum still had the archive online that you could just like sift through like millions of photographs that they don't have that anymore, but I like screenshot it like everything. And you know, I started showing those on Instagram and on the website and, you know, for a long time I didn't really know like what it was, but I just kept on going because I loved it. And suddenly I was getting these messages from people saying, you know, we, we, we also are doing wedding photography, but we never felt part of the wedding photography industry and now we see counterpart and this gives us like, you know, a way to actually do our own thing like now because you exist, I can, you know, I feel like I can do my own thing in wedding photography and it's like, wow, like I never anticipated having like that kind of influence even though I said I wanted to change the wedding industry from the very beginning. Like maybe it is like I am like, I would say giving an extra layer of depth to the wedding industry that that I didn't anticipate it before, but that is I think what's happening. And you know, giving people the opportunity to meet themselves and don't feel boxed in in what they think wedding photography has to be. Wow. Well, I'm a, I mean, a testament to that, you know, generally I started in '09 and we jumped right into, you know, the Instagram tiny people, big places, adventurous out there thing and that quickly led to photographing, you know, barn weddings and West Anderson style stuff. Yeah, it was cute to make that. Yeah, it was, but we definitely jumped right into the box and around 2016 I started shooting film and found street photography and it felt like the artist that was buried underneath came alive. And for, you know, however many years it took probably from 2016 to 2020 is when we really started to change our approach to this thing. And I think though the soul was always interested in something different in what we were doing. We just didn't know how to get it out. And I think if we look back at our work, we see hints of that. But yeah, when, when John really kind of came into the scene in a more serious way and when counterpart came up and when I saw Michaela Jellens work really start to change and we shot her wedding, which is so fun to look back on. It really felt like my gosh, somebody put, they took the blinders off and really started to see what was possible. And how to exercise these muscles that we compartmentalized outside of our work and how to bring those things into serving couples and creating what feels like a much more historical, important piece of art for our couples. So thank you. I mean, thank you for following that intuition and whatever brings you along the way. Thank you to them too, because it's become just a beautiful resource and a reminder of like we're doing something that's important and you have to look a certain way. Yeah, I love hearing that back story. I love the origin of what you thought it was going to be in your very couples. I would love to hear, I don't know if it's, if it's public or anything, but what a beautiful thing to listen to your grandparents talking about. Yeah, you'll have to up your dodge, but yeah, but it was beautiful because I've never seen my grandparents like kiss or like a affection like towards each other, but they ended with like, it's always been good, you know, it's always been good. And I was like, when I hear that, it's just so beautiful, you know, like it doesn't have to be a certain way, like it can just always be good. And that's that was their marriage. Can you say that in touch? It is all that good. I love it. Well, as we were doing a little bit of a research on Rainy Maria, we found you talking about this idea that there are hundreds of photographs don't necessarily serve somebody very well. And that maybe it's a handful of images that end up on walls and eventually pass into the next generation. So how has that practically and actually changed what you deliver and how you deliver to your couples? And a couple of realizations, I think, that really made me realize like that it's actually about a couple of photos, you know, from the to start, like we go back and look at our grandparents photo album and maybe max 20 photos and looking back at that, you know, that's enough. Also, like for me, like looking back at my grandparents wedding album, like I can see like even if it's just family photos, like it is about the memory I realized. And it's also like William Eggleston, he only shoots one frame at a time, you know, why shoot three, you know, you get it, you know, the ones maybe slightly better or maybe not, you know, but just get it right. And then that's that moment and then that's that memory. So we don't need those other things, you know. And that's also what film photography, I think, really brought me when I, as I always still shot film even like from the beginning, but it would be like a portrait on a Hasselblad and it would never be like a documentary moment, but also during COVID or after COVID, I started incorporating like lots of film. And then I realized, you know, you're not going to shoot 10 frames. It is actually only about those couple really good photographs that tell the story and that are the memory of that thing. And like during my mentor, like I do, I do about two years ago, I started doing mentoring calls. And then I hear myself talking and it's like, okay, this is what I find important. Like for instance, like the ceremony, we all, like, like a lot of people shoot it, you know, beautifully. But then I think like the ceremony is quite a static, like thing to photograph, you know, you try different angles. And what about we only had one photograph and it would be the essence of like a ceremony, you know, like how would you shoot it? I rather have that one photograph than having 20 like shots that are the same that all the couples have also because it's like just in the middle from the all couple, you know, like we know those photographs, but what was so special about like the light or the background the way they were standing or looking at each other like what is the aspect. of like, these, just like 30-minute ceremony. Like maybe that one shot is enough, you know, instead of giving like 50 or 100. And like, I still deliver lots of photos also, but I do want that shot to be part of that selection. And I hope to get to like, the point where I can deliver maybe max 50 shots from a wedding, but I find the other shots also really, really wonderful to not give them, but I do really try to get like the essence of like, certain moments into one shot. So that was like a realization. - What do you think it is about abundance of images that makes it, you know, harder to recognize what's important, because I feel that when we deliver too much, or I feel that when I've been delivered too much from like, you know, our family session or something, that it is harder to, yeah, to almost sift through and see the most meaningful photographs when they're amongst, you know, mission. - Yeah, so I tell people also like, you are the photographer, you are the editor. Don't let your couple choose which photo is the best. You choose the best, you know, is your photo, and you have to be happy with every single shot that you're giving them. And you have to be happy with every single shot to be posted on Instagram, for instance. Like, sometimes I hear people say like, "Oh, but they picked this photo that I don't love." It's like, "Don't give it to them." Like, they don't, they don't know what you've shot. Like, they don't know, you know, if it was like a moment before, a moment after, you know, from the 10, you may be shot, then like, pick the best one and don't give the shots that you don't wanna give. And suddenly, if you make it tighter, it's also like, from looking at a gallery point of view, it's much nicer to look at something that goes in our different, you know, then same, same, same, you know. And then another same, feel like sometimes, I feel like I'm looking at an iPhone role if I look at someone's full gallery. That's like, I can't get into the wedding. Like, I don't actually know what I'm looking at too much, you know? But it's difficult, like, to do that. And like, I suggest like, maybe you have someone else, like, look at your work or maybe leave it for a week, you know? Put it aside, like, they can wait another couple of days, you know, they've been waiting for months, like, you know, make it five weeks, six weeks. Three months, it doesn't matter, you know? Wait, and don't, don't like rush this process of like, okay, I've shot it now, you know? So many more weddings to edit, but, you know, I just wanna get rid of it now. Like, no, like, the editing process is so important because your voice really comes out in the editing process also, like, I really like urge people to like, don't overshoot while you're shooting, but then, you know, while you shot it, and then afterwards, you really have to, like, say, like, that's the shot, you know, that's me, like, that's how I see it, like, and not the other three shots. And I think it will be a much pleasurable experience for your couple or who else? It looks at the gallery to look through and be amazed and be surprised because you say, like, yes, you know, this is me, this, you know, this is what beautiful, you know? Not like he's 10 or right photos and you pick, which is the best. That's my point of view. - Yeah, no, I think it's really good. And what I hear you saying is it's our responsibility as the photographer to decide what images survive and what we end up delivering to our couple. I would say of the last few years that has been one of the most difficult and challenging and rewarding aspects of continuing to do this work is slowing down, not just the editing, you know, color correcting and all that, but the editing down the images and trying to create a better experience. Sam Blake told a story once about shooting this really high profile wedding and before she delivered, plugged her computer in, just really big screen and went through every image. And I don't know what the number ended up being. You can go back and listen to the episode with Sam, but I think she said she got rid of 400 extra images in that. And I thought, man, what a powerful visual of doing that hard and hard work when you just want to deliver and just get it off your plate. So, Rainy, I'm curious to know like, give us a little glimpse into your process, you know, after you've done maybe the adjustments, what does it look like to actually call down the final delivery? - Yeah, so I take a long time and I don't know, like sometimes I think I'm a bit old school or something, but I actually put all my foot. So I also, I really try to not over shoot at all. So I shoot about 60% on film, 40% on digital. And then I merge them together per like what do you call it? Like getting ready will be one live room catalog and then ceremony will be one live room catalog. And then I go through them in live room. So I don't call them beforehand in another like software or whatever. And then, well, I would say 90% of my film images makes the final edit, because I really don't want to overshoot my film and I really wait for the moment. And then I would say, but like I take about 900 photos on digital per wedding now, I would say. So it's also not that much, but maybe 50% or something makes it. And then I just like to fiddle with a free photograph. It's a slow process. Like I like to like make them black and white. And you know, sometimes I crop them a little bit. And then I export it and I still have to put them in order. But I don't shoot 20 weddings. So yeah, it's like max 10 or eight, it's not a lot. So I do have the time. And I like sitting with the images also. I don't want to rush this at all. And then I have it all exported in and then I leave it. And then I come back to it and I like take some out. Even sometimes when I've like uploaded them to pick time, I look at it in the gallery. I was like, no, you know, this one can still go. No one ever comes back to me saying, where's this photo? You know, and I'm happy with what it, you know, because like I always say, like I wish I was John Dolen and I could visit the people with a box of prints, you know, but I can't do that. So I want my gallery to look exciting if that's what they see for the first time, you know? - Yeah, I think that's such a reflection of the upstream work that you do. That being your couples don't come back asking for more. It's because, well, the conversation that you initially had with them is setting those expectations. And really the way that you lead and how you curate and how you present your work and your philosophy, I think is a huge part of this. So we hear that question all the time as we're in conversations with photographers. Well, if I start going down this road, like what happens when a couple reaches out and says where's the rest and we're always pointing them back to, well, what are you communicating first? Because what happens, you know, nine months prior when they find you is going to affect the back end of the conversation after the wedding's actually done. And you know, I think it's, you've done a really good job at that, you know, leading with what you want to shoot and who you want to attract. And I don't know if that's super intentional or you're just letting, you know, this is what I want to do. And I'm just going to keep sharing from that place. But I definitely feel that from you. Well, that's really great to know. And I think the goal for people that won this goal would should be that people book you for how you see the world, not because you take beautiful photographs. It's like, I want my wedding to be shot in the way, like, tager shoots it. Or like, I want to see my wedding through Naomi's eyes or, you know, Jon's eye, you know, and there's no competition, you know, that because that's what they want because there's not someone else who can be Jon, who can be Naomi, who can, you know, like, there's only one person that can shoot it at away. So then you don't come back and ask, like, where's that photo? Because, you know, you wanted that vision and you get that vision. So I think, but like it, not obviously, you're narrowing your clientele and not everyone wants to do that. Like the end that's fine too. But I think some people do. And then I think if you can get to that stage, you just get 100% the right clientele, the right couples reach out to you and they just say, you know, you do what you want to do. And then it doesn't have to be the luxury market also because I'm feeling like the luxury clients, they always say, like, oh, you take great photos. But I think it can even be in like the lower brackets. You can still, you know, really do your own thing and then the right people find you. Yeah, I fully agree. And honestly, I think oftentimes, luxury market or higher price weddings is a reflection of how unique you actually are. Like the more unique you get, the more you trust your own voice, well, you get rewarded for that greatly by trust and perhaps, you know, higher rates. Well, I want to kind of tie back into counterpart for a minute because, you know, right before you and I got on here, we were talking about this idea of you placing contemporary artists, like all the artists on counterpart. And that's to people like Winnegrin or Duaneu or Elliot Irwitt. And, you know, you're kind of almost forcing us to see our wedding industry in the context of something bigger, like a greater story. And yeah, I think it could probably be pretty easy just to post the incredible artists of counterpart, like just their work. So where did that historical context feel like it became important and, you know, what's the benefit of us being able to study those other photographers alongside? You know, contemporary artists. - I think it came from where it started. Like I was always interested in like the stories of like the weddings and the marriages. And then like being a documentary photographer at first before being like a wedding photographer, I was interested in those photos. You know, like I love the black and white magna, magna photos. And I kept on finding these little gems that I'm like, wow, you know, this person, you know, also shot weddings. So like the great shoot weddings also, you know, and but how interesting is it to view it from a documentary photographer like perspective instead of like the wedding photography industry because that's where I want like maybe I did secretly have like the wish to be like the magna photos of wedding photography, you know, like I was like, that's possible. Like so that's why I think we do go hand in hand because I think like all wedding photos are like of that quality also. And it's just, you know, it's part of us, you know, we like isn't it incredible that that this ritual like has been going on for so long through all ages and cultures and still nowadays like we are part of history. So it's the part of us. And I think that's just where my inspiration comes from, you know, the lifetime magazine like photographs and you know, and they surprise, it's nice to know how they used to do weddings back then. And it's just where my inspiration comes from. And I didn't really have big ideas. And I'm just sharing what I love, you know, I'm just going with the flow. I'm just, you know, I literally just do whatever I feel like is right. And now actually I have the feeling that I must take counterpart a little bit further and maybe going to interview some people and about their philosophy, you know, just like written interviews. And some Mallory talked about, you should do podcasts, but I don't know. I'm not sure if I'm the right person to ask the questions, but yeah, so I think counterpart will keep on evolving naturally. And I don't really have too many big ideas of what it should be, you know, it's its own thing. And I love that because that's why I keep on doing it. You know, there's no pressure. No one, no one's paying me. So I don't have to perform. I just do what I love and what I love to see. And I share that with Will. And I find it strange that I'm the person who did it, but I was like, when I started it, I was like, I had, like I did not see another way. I was like, I have to do this because there's probably, at that time, you know, not that many people with like my background. And then, you know, looking at weddings like this and like, I'm happy it exists. And it's just funny that it's me. - You shared a wedding recently that had, I mean, just incredible light. I'm not sure where that was. It was just a really. - The heaven on wedding. - It was at Lebanon? Okay, oh my. - Yeah, I think so. - It's beautiful. And the feeling that it evoked in me was the sense of timelessness, which I think is very true in your work. And also, of course, encounter part. And yet, you know, there are still images that you create or that you share of other artists that are very much a part of the time. At the clothes are dated, or very much like 2026, or very much 1970s, whatever the photo is. The culture is dated. And yet, that photograph still feels like it's, what's the word when something doesn't die? It's like, it's timeless, right? And I'm curious to know, in looking at your own work and in looking at the work that you share, is there something that makes a photograph timeless to you? - I think when it stays interesting to look at, when there's more to it than, you know, often say it is than just beautiful. When there's, like, I talk a lot about passion. Like, I want to feel the photographer almost in the photograph. Like, I want to, it's a lot of that connection like that I can dive into that photograph and actually almost experience that moment. But it is different answers to that question also, like, when you have like a personal relationship, like photographs of my dad, like they are timeless now. And it's just like people looking in the camera, like the photograph itself is not that beautiful, but it can really take you back to the memory or place or moments, like if a photograph can do that, you know, that also makes it timeless or working at or makes it better over time. But I think in wedding photography, like if it just, you can keep on returning to it, you know, there's no trends. And also, you know, nowadays, like, I like a horizontal, like a landscape shot where you can go through a photograph, you know, you can, there's more to it than just a person, you know, or just a pretty dread, you know. When it can really take you back to a time and a place and a moment, I think that's made it awesome. - I really like that. - Hmm, do you think that there's something that makes a photograph age poorly? - Bad editing, that color great. No, no, well, I think a lot of different photography will, like over like long time, like it will probably get more interesting looking back at things, but yeah, I don't know, it's a difficult one to answer. - Yeah, again, I imagine it goes back to that, and the same intuition that you had for knowing if somebody was a part of counterpart. I think that we feel an aging photograph versus something that's timeless. I mean, Jen and I were helping support one of our students the other day, and we've been leaning into these eight weeks of creativity with them, and really going to report fully reviews and different types of curations, studying movies and artists, and then looking at like, hey, how do we, now that we're kind of like filling our cup in holistic ways, how do we exercise this? And we're trying to talk about the distinction between a good wedding photograph and a photograph that only that person can make. And oftentimes when it's not your work, you can see it clear as day, but really naming it and defining, well, this is a good wedding photograph because, and that's the answer they're looking for, well, what makes it a good wedding photo versus something only I can take? And it's kind of an unanswerable question because the only person that can answer that is the artist themselves. And that journey can be really difficult to break open and try to get really practical on it because people are just looking for answers. Like, how do I just do that? And how do I develop eyes for seeing what is good and passionate and how do I see myself in wedding photos? So is there any advice that you would give to somebody on that journey right now that's trying to look for those images that are really unique to them and that developing eyes for seeing themselves in their own work? I think it's really like getting to know yourself and it's actually like what I keep on continuing doing with myself also, like figure out who you are, like what's your interest are? Like now I really figured out like a, I really am drawn to like the Mediterranean life and you know, that was like, okay, that like I make a note of that. Like, you know, like the, what's important to me is like the locations and the views and the people gathering. And then like I really wanna feel the photograph also. So okay, how do I feel a photograph? And I think it has a lot to do with the lens people using 'cause like I'm a no zoom kind of person because I think like there's a disconnect with not being in that moment. It's like I really wanna feel like a photograph. So like okay, you know, that's me. And so you keep on having to reflect on yourself and like look at your work and like think like what photograph is really me? Like is, and it's not the most beautiful. Like you mustn't think like what's the most beautiful photograph, which photograph is gonna be like the bit well received on Instagram. So like no, like who am I? And like which photograph speaks to me the most? And then you have to keep on reflecting like why is this? You know, what is working so well here? Like it can also just be like, oh I really love this kind of light. Or really like, you know, this camera with this kind of film in it. And you know, that camera works really well with the black and white. And that to me seems more like me. So you have to keep on looking back at your work and really reflect on what's important to you who you are as a person. Like also like how you do weddings that we spoke to. But you know, like I'm like, you know, you just do whatever and I capture that. You know, like how do you wanna like photograph a wedding? Like does it feel right of how you do it? You know, do you wanna like be more like hands off? Or do you like it to see like a full picture of more? Like have people in the surroundings more? Are you really like a close up kind of person? And on all those things, like it's, you know, it's a never ending process. So there's not like one way like this is how you gonna do it. You know, you just have to keep on reflecting on your own work and on your feelings and how a photograph feels to you. And like what is important to you? And don't think about the wedding industry and don't think about Instagram. But you know, print out those photographs and put them on the wall and stand back a bit. And you know, does this hold up as a photograph? Like that's actually something that I forgot to say earlier on as like, you know, print those photographs. And then you know, does it deserve to be printed? Is this an actual photograph? And then you know, why is this that speaking to me so much? and figuring it out. So it's not an easy task to do. to find your voice, but I recommend reading the book, find your why, start with why, find your why. Simon Sinek, I don't know how to pronounce his name correctly, but for me, I just read the book and really thought about it, but he wants you to talk to someone else and ask all those very personal questions. And then you figure something out, but for me, I realize, I like to be surprised, that's how I do life, why I move around, and why I'm interested in different cultures, but then recently, I realized that I'm looking for belonging also, so where do I belong? Because maybe that is why I'm moving around so much and I never felt like the Netherlands is my home country. I feel like I should have been born in South America or something, like different culture speak to me more and you figure out who you are along the way and then you have to reflect that into your photographs, like who you are as a person and even if it's someone else's wedding, how do you do that? So it's difficult, but I like it, it's fun, you're never there, you always have to keep on learning. You're never there, it's beautiful, in everything that you're saying right now, I just hear such a necessity for margin, like it's really difficult to do the work that you're talking about if you're not creating space for that, and I think it can be really unique, or artists who, or wedding photographers who are trying to run a business and get bookings and have success to feel like slowing down and asking those questions and printing their work, it can feel like, you know, when you're in a place of desperation or just like really grasping out wanting to make something work, a really hard thing to make space for, but I think it's part of the long game. If you want to be doing this for a long time, if you want to be proud of your work and to feel fulfilled, like it does take present day sacrifice, and I know that, you know, start with why it was a really important book for Jenn and I and we realized that if we're not asking those questions and creating from something deeper than the only place that I'm going to create from is putting on other people's crap and, you know, we've spent years doing that and it was awful and you knew it deep down that, like this isn't of us and then that creates burnout itself, even if you're not, you know, physically burned out. Yeah. Yeah, I love the look into that process and the honoring of that slower pace and those questions. I do think that people in that process are important. We talk about this all the time that like your differentiator, the thing that makes you different or unique is not often something that you can define on your own. You have to have somebody reflecting it back to you because we don't think that we're that unique, you know, but we do have an eye and we do see the world differently and we need other people kind of pointing that out, which kind of leads me to this last thought with you. You have two kids, you, you're a mom, you're a partner to somebody and you are also listening to this voice that you have that wants to take risks, that wants to be surprised and you are, whether you realize it or not, you're leaving behind the way that you see the world with counterpart and with your own work. And so I'm curious if we can kind of like jump into the future 10 years from now, you have a teenager and another kid who can at least, right, what do you, what do you hope your kids are seeing you invest in or leave behind as a way of like seeing the world? I think I want them to follow their passion and know that you can create your own life, how you want it to be, you know, this is, this is a big question for goodness. Follow your instincts, I think, yeah, whatever, you know, I really, I really value passion, I think in life. So find something you're passionate about and follow your God and, and I hope they they'll be proud of their mom for doing that. We talked about mentoring other photographers, you started this couple years ago, how would a photographer know that it's time for them to reach out to you? Like what do you help photographers with right now in the season? Well, when it's time, well, so I talked to different, different people from like just starting out to people being in the industry for years and either it's like, what is my voice or it's like, I've lost my voice, you know, I've been swept away by the wedding industry and that portfolio is amazing. And then a few, a handful is like, you know, I just wanted to talk to you and get some extra eyes. And then I tell them like, you are already amazing. And I just have to tell you, like, you know, you're doing a great job. But it's nice to get an extra set of eyes on, on work for most people because it, you know, we are just most of the time sitting by ourselves behind a computer and sometimes you just need someone to ask you some hard questions that make you think and tell them that there is no rules, you know, like you, you don't have to do something because you think the couple once, once this or you think the wedding industry needs that. And, you know, but anyone can reach out whenever they feel, feel they just need a little guidance in, in the curation of their portfolio or like, in how to find their voice, if they feel like they need a little push or they need to, I don't know, be able to see the clarity of where they going already because I think like, I, so I look at people's full galleries, like three galleries and I look at the Instagram and their work and then, you know, I see a lot of the same thing, but I notice now because I've seen so much, like little sparks of like passion. I was like, oh, you know, suddenly this person sees something differently, you know, because I've seen everything, you know, I've seen this before that, you know, but suddenly I see a little glimpse of personality that I can pick out now because I've seen so much. And then I said, tell them like, you know, this is an interesting image, like you saw something different there, like you should investigate that and I think that's a very difficult thing to be able to see yourself. So I think when people feel like they just need an extra set of eyes on their work, they can reach out. Beautiful. It will be a joy to continue following along and just watching you be such a good example of listening to a unique voice and sharing work from that place and then also being such a great curator and resource in kind of part photos, I, look forward to the day when you decide to do a gallery show. That sounds very exciting. It is going to happen one day. It is going to happen. Yeah. Now, my daughter's going to be one soon and then I'm going to start thinking of retreats and books and gallery shows. So fun. Yeah. That will be great. Or any thank you so much. We'll drop all the links on where they can connect with you. And of course, if you're not following Rainy, please do. If you're not following Connor Partt, well, you just entered a whole school of how to look at photographs just by following. And my goodness, one of the best things about Connor Partt has been the artist takeovers. And I hope that you still have those tags up in the future stories. Yeah, but I think you can only have, I think the first ones have been knocked off because I think there's a limit. But we still have more coming. So we're going to kick it out to still like the new artists and tages and myself. So yeah, we'll pick it up again. Amazing. So good. Well, thank you so much, Rainy. Thank you. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you, Brad. If today's conversation inspired you, here are two ways we can keep the goodness going. First, if you loved this episode or you got something out of it, would you take 30 seconds to leave us a review? 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