055 │ Organizational Psychology │ Why We Do What We Do - Why We Do What We Do

Speaker 1 Okay. You're listening Speaker 2 Hey, this is Abraham and Ryan. Oh, so this is why we do what we do. Yes. And today, you've Speaker 1 probably worked somewhere. You might be sitting at your job and like, listening to this, because we're just that awesome, and time fulfilling, hopefully, when it comes, do, I don't know, this is derailing, the point is, if Speaker 3 you're at your job, if you're at some place of business or even if you have heard of business, but your maybe aren't there, whatever the point is that most Mrs. Have had some level of thought and organization, put into the various elements of what it takes to run a Speaker 1 business or maybe they don't do this. And you're sitting there and you're like, okay, I'm excited to talk about this or listen to this because my employer just doesn't do those sort of things Speaker 2 maybe and maybe you'll find some utility in this one. In Speaker 1 which case there's this Bittersweet thing to you, sitting at your desk right now, not liking your job, but now you're going to enjoy it more Speaker 2 hopefully and if businesses did not put this kind of care and attention into Speaker 3 Whooping? What it takes to organize a lot of people doing the same sort of activity, then. Usually, the ensuing chaos will kill that Speaker 1 business. Yes, I have been in both. Yeah, I've been both an active member and a passive member in both as well, right? But making it work and accidentally killing it off. Okay, rest in peace second Speaker 2 business. What's important to note though is that although Speaker 3 we've already talked about business and we're going to be talking about business a lot throughout this episode Speaker 2 that what we're talking about does not Speaker 3 necessarily apply only to To business it really applies to any group activity, requiring, a group effort, to execute some mission where people are working together and it can be either continuous lease or an ongoing group that has something they're always doing like a producing something. Or it's just this one time Gathering of people like want to get together this once and want to do this one cool thing and Speaker 2 that's it. Yeah, either way Speaker 3 you can apply these same sort of principles and Speaker 1 ideas, right? You be like this, at this podcast, we had to get together right here and work together and producing something and seeing what it is and driving are Own behavior towards this Mission and the other one that you described as maybe like a conference, or a gathering or right up or a summit or something like that. Yeah. One time thing where you still have need to be really clear on what it is that you're going for and what you're doing. And what the community is really all about, right? Speaker 3 Or people may be collaborating to write a book or something. But yeah, I know that you're exactly right. And so what we're talking about then is called organizational, behavior management Speaker 1 or we may refer to it as OBM. Yeah. Speaker 3 And this is also referred to as like organizational psychology and we aren't going to Speaker 2 talk exclusively about Speaker 3 industrial organizational Speaker 2 psychology, but that is also related to what we're talking about. Yes. And these all fall into the Speaker 3 category of an application of behavior psychology to a workplace environment. Okay, yes. And now with IO the use a little bit more of the cognitive psychology to apply but it does depend on where you're working because some people they call it the industrial organization and they're still using more Behavior principles. Whatever it is. The fact that we're talking about is we're applying just generally speaking psychology to Speaker 2 some kind of organizational setting with people working together. Okay? Speaker 3 Okay, so let's start with a little bit of history about this because I just I just think this is super fascinating and also it's pretty new, which is kind of Speaker 1 cool. Yeah, it's very real. So 1960s ish. Am I right Speaker 2 here? Yeah. Okay yeah. So I mean named Owen Aldous. Speaker 3 I think I'm pronouncing that correctly and 1961. He published an Article called of pigeons and men. Speaker 2 And in this article, he was really Speaker 3 recommending that we apply those behavioral psychology principles that had been well established in research up to this Speaker 2 point in places like the Speaker 3 workplace because people hadn't really been doing that Speaker 2 yet. And that's not to say that workplaces didn't have some system Speaker 3 for managing and organizing their activities. But at least hadn't been Speaker 2 talked about with respect Speaker 3 to involving in the psychology angle, especially from the behavioral psychology point of view Speaker 1 because there's some big books How to Win, Friends and Influence People to get a before then, right? Speaker 3 Dale. Carnegie book. Yeah, Speaker 2 absolutely. All right, now, Society of the same general purpose Speaker 3 of this applying those principles to workplace settings developed around the similar time and they were called The National Society. For programmed instruction, later the international Society for proformance Speaker 1 improvement. They're still under that name. Yeah. And if anyone's looking for, just like, nerdy old, cool books, go dig around in that Society for Speaker 3 sure. Yeah. And it's be for short Speaker 2 and then after. So, this is again, this is a 1960s in 1972, a man Speaker 3 named Dale breath our introduced, a Behavioral Systems approach, and a book called Behavior Analysis, and business and industry, a total performance system. And I'm going to talk more about what a systems approach is when we get to more of the like Speaker 2 specifics of this cool. Yeah. And then there Speaker 1 was a Bree Daniels came into the scene, right? Speaker 3 Yep. He's still around. Great guy. Actually, I've met him a couple of times as well. Yeah, yeah. Started in organizational behavior management business in 1978. That later turned into Aubrey Daniels International or ADI and this Speaker 2 business is still around. And, as far as I can tell, he's kind of killing it. Yeah, like he's doing really well, the business is doing well, Speaker 3 and they do a lot of stuff working with various organizations to help improve their performance. Speaker 1 He's consistently looking to expand help new populations, you seem on donation list when it comes to development grants and things like that. Sure. Yeah. I would be willing to To bet, he's doing pretty well Speaker 2 and in Speaker 3 1982. So about four years. After this, he published one of his most well-known, books. And he's published many, many, many, many books over the yes. But one of his most well-known was called Performance Management. And I think it's now in its fifth or sixth Speaker 1 edition. Yes. And so few, yeah, there's a couple on the shelves Speaker 3 so it's still running which is great and this has an overall view of the background of what he calls Performance Management which we're going to go into in a little bit more depth as well as Specific strategies for applying that to a workplace setting. Speaker 1 Yes. So as like, with anything else, there was some professional publication Outlets, it started to shape up, right? Speaker 2 Yeah. So there are Speaker 3 several peer reviewed journals that exists. One of the big ones is called the Journal of organizational behavior management, which makes Speaker 2 sense as a title, I think, Speaker 3 and those others as well. There's a performance Improvement I believe is one and some other ones, or performance Improvement, quarterly. Speaker 1 Some what about reviews of like this overall approach? Like, how effective is it? Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, so I think a lot of people when they hear about this, they want to know, does it? Work and solid question. Yeah it is. And where the data and Speaker 2 there's been several reviews on I picked to talk about today one was mostly because they were so recent, there was one in 2001 and what they Speaker 3 were looking at is how many applications of this OBM the strategies for OBM, how many of them demonstrated in provement. And so out of all the studies they reviewed. They found that 58% of them demonstrated some level of improvement for One percent of them had some mixed results, so some improved, some didn't and then prize there, right? And which really, I mean, if you look at those two numbers here at 99%, so the remaining 1% showed no effect. Speaker 2 So the overall Speaker 3 outcome of this looks fairly Speaker 2 positive. Yeah. Right. And it Speaker 1 influences stuff, we just need to figure out that other 48 or 41 percent. Speaker 2 Yeah. And just figure out, you know what? Speaker 1 Make sure we got to go in the right direction. Yeah. When it, when Speaker 2 it didn't work and then another review was interested in. Like, okay, well, we see that this Speaker 3 many Tations improved. But by how much if they went from like you know, a very small amount of improvements. Then maybe it's interesting that they improved but they didn't really demonstrate a lot of improvements. So this other review wanted to see on average how much improvement was there and this this author actually found an impressive 54.5% Improvement on average when some of them as high as in the 90% Improvement for some of the studies that they reviewed and that was done in Speaker 1 2013. Yeah, kind of crazy. Speaker 3 You know that Pretty strong. That's showing that you know, if you were to see a industry improve their performance standards or measures of whatever it is that they're interested in by 54%. I mean, that's a significant jump. Yeah. And whatever their production is Right. Speaker 1 Minds me of Elon Musk. Yeah. All of his Endeavors, we're going to reuse these things. Yeah. Increase it by tenfold hundredfold. Lots, Speaker 3 lots of lots of growth. Yes. Speaker 2 So I guess that's just some of the Speaker 3 overall background and A little bit of the research on what's going on with this. Let's Speaker 2 go ahead and dive Speaker 3 into how this works. What's involved in this Speaker 1 process? All right, so for those who don't know Abraham and I went to school together at various times at least some of the same University. I don't think we ever had it formal class together. Now, I don't think we. Yeah, but you actually formally went for a certificate in this, right? Or part of your degree was in organizational behavior management. Yeah, it was. Yeah, now, mine was not but I found myself, like, do I do it or do I not? I'm not sure. And then I was like, well I don't know, like I think this would be valuable. And then I realize if I really wanted to effect change and work with especially with groups of people and at the end of the day, we're always in this business setting, right? No matter where we're at so much of the time. So for me OB M and this organizational behavior in general just became very interesting because it was like if I wanted to know how to work the most effectively as possible that I couldn't environment, I just start to learn how to bring these sort of principles into these groups Speaker 3 settings. Well and that's perfect and that it really brings us right into starting to describe the process of how this works. And by starting with the overall idea of OBM is that it's applying these well-known learning principles to large groups of people and these sort of Speaker 2 organizational settings. Yeah, okay. And so on its surface. This is Speaker 3 really hardly different in any way from applying these principles to like animals or in any other settings involving changing human behavior. Such as the also, see these in interventions with children with an Autism diagnosis, these same sorts of principles I've been applied to education settings, that sort of thing. Speaker 2 So Speaker 3 it really doesn't very it's not like the principles or any different. It's just what are the specific strategies for applying these principles when you're dealing with something? And this is what kind of Speaker 2 remarkable about this is that these simple principles seem to work with Speaker 3 these really like highly Speaker 2 proficient intelligent Speaker 3 languaging, adults. Speaker 2 Yes. And that's one of the things that people have argued about and Speaker 3 still argue that they argue that these behavioral principles won't work with people who Who have language or these high levels of cognition. And it's because of that cognition, which circumvents, the effect of operant conditioning or operant learning principles and Speaker 1 this is just a bad thing. To say, when you're talking about like what, sorry this is only works with humans that don't do explains right? Come on. Speaker 2 Well I think they're Speaker 1 not wrong debate is they're cool but it's Speaker 2 not right. Well one of the problems I think just thinking about the fact Speaker 3 that language is really important in understanding Speaker 2 how people do the things that they do. Yeah. And Speaker 3 That if you fail to incorporate that into your description, which the behavioral approach doesn't fail to do that, but it's also not made Speaker 2 explicit sometimes. Yeah, that people can look at Speaker 3 that and think well, you're not accounting for language and cognition and and what we're seeing at Speaker 2 least and I think that's Speaker 3 a conversation that we're going to continue to have. And well yeah they be going more depth in specifically but what Speaker 2 was great about this. Cool Speaker 3 organizational behavior piece is that it's sort of showing well they do really work and really without very much modification. Overall like you can you can still Speaker 2 apply this Speaker 3 to the settings and have it be really effective? Speaker 1 Yes as some places manufacturing was like one area where this really started, Speaker 2 right? Yeah. This is definitely huge and Manufacturing. This Speaker 3 is also been applied to General retail. Speaker 1 I've worked in non-profit settings and applied things like this. Speaker 2 Some more specific ones is just the Speaker 3 behavior management around things like Speaker 2 safety. Yes. Speaker 1 So think about Industries such as well. Drilling and such right? Yeah, absolutely. No. There's a lot of applications there. Yeah. Huge amounts of safety. They're being in mine, an area where mining is very big here. Yeah. That a I know that there's, I have some family also work in these settings and they experience programs that have to do with mine safety. Speaker 2 Yeah. And medical Speaker 3 professionals often need a lot of safety. There's there's many professions where safety is one of the key features of of that work environment. And in many of those places this type of technology has been applied and then There is, of course, the overarching theme that needs to be encompassed in anything where you're dealing with humans and behavior and life in general, which is the ethical considerations. And we'll go into that a little bit. But besides that Speaker 2 and I mean, there are specific Speaker 3 I want to say not necessarily domains, but there are our topics that are brought up consistently, which is really good to see about the ethics of applying these in these workplace settings. Speaker 2 And then beyond that, I mean, there Speaker 3 are still dozens if not hundreds of other Types of organizations and settings, where this has been applied and continues to be applied and again because it's effective and and there's good data. And, you know, the one thing that I don't know that we've really stressed here is this is not just about make the business richer. Speaker 2 Oh yeah, this is largely about make it a better place to work for people. Speaker 1 Yeah, more enjoyable, more efficient. I always got really interesting the efficiency. So I worked consistently in situations where you constantly went I'm saying I don't have enough time for the, you need to get done right at the end of the day, you're delivering a service to somebody such as folks with disabilities and sleeping on that hard, right? Sure. Not saying like running into in efficiencies and, you know, you could be doing more. So this really was interesting to me as to like, how do we use our dollars to go farther than we did last time? Last month last week? Last year, right? Right. Speaker 2 Well, this will come up when we talk about ethics Speaker 3 a little bit more. But yeah, it's not just like get your employees to work. Therefore less, it's actually really to make the job as easy and as efficiently, executable as possible. Speaker 2 Yeah, which really should also Speaker 3 result in happier employees, that feel competent and safe in their Speaker 2 job and that things get done in a timely manner and people feel empowered to Speaker 3 do their job correctly and make decisions that will allow them to do it the right Speaker 1 way. I hope to HR department and worked with some others to integrate some new software for example that Not only was cheaper on the front so it saved us. Those like costs up front. But as it was also easier for the staff to implement some things that they need to do and simple things, enter the bottom card and like reviewing those sort of things. Oh yeah, so it's the end of the day. There was a lot of cash to save. The could be redistributed, Elsewhere for the mission. Yeah. And over years of doing that like three years of doing that, there's actually a few different wage increases that we were able to do as a result as well. That's awesome. Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, it's a great way to use it Speaker 2 and I think Again, just the overall Speaker 3 point of this is like, we're doing, we're trying to make this the best possible place to work. And it really does a lot of the times focus on the well-being of the employees and recognizing that the business would not exist, without the people who are there to make that business exists and that includes all levels from the leaders down to the lowest paid or lowest responsibility position inside the organization. And so, if everyone's working together, the business does a lot better. And when you have those Relations that are structured around, things like competition and secrets and lies and putting other people down like those businesses. They just don't last very long. Yeah, I mean, they kind of look like an explosion where they'll kind of flare up really bright for a second. Then collapse down on themselves, like a dying Speaker 1 star site and Ron and all those other things. Speaker 2 Right? Exactly. So let's go into some of the specific Speaker 3 elements of organizational behavior management. And this is kind of broken into like a domain or application strategy, and then likes specific types of strategies. And they're not, they're kind of just thrown in here. Speaker 1 And really, what's going through a little bit of a hodgepodge Speaker 2 Yan, honestly, I tried to organize them a little bit better when in my Speaker 3 notes When I Was preparing for this, it's just that there's so many different ways to talk about it, I finally just decided like, let's just go through them. Yeah, Speaker 2 and the order that they seem to come up, here we go. So the first one performance Speaker 1 feedback that is huge in any Journal article that I've pretty much ever read her book on this topic. Speaker 2 Yeah, and this one goes back to that, I'm Speaker 3 Aubrey Daniels book that we talked about which is going to be linked in the show notes. There are All components to this this Performance Management part, the one of the most foundational and common elements of OBM that you'll see kind of anywhere is called performance Speaker 2 feedback. And so, this is defined as information that follows Speaker 3 a performance and describes the level or quality of that performance Speaker 2 noticing. Now, this does not make any Speaker 3 comments about whether or not this is positive reinforcement or, like, Speaker 2 coercive or anything like that. It really says, it's just information and it Speaker 3 describes a level or Quality of that performance. And now there are specific elements of that feedback that's going to make it more or less Speaker 2 effective but just simply starting with what is it? Speaker 3 And then where do we go from there, Speaker 1 right? And one big thing here, is the distinction of what it's not and I see this written out a lot, right? Yeah, absolutely. So this is not like a performance appraisal that's like once a year, Speaker 2 right, right? Yeah, performance appraisals. And I actually had to take a Speaker 3 class on this that was not my favorite thing in the world. But performance appraisal does refer more to these Speaker 2 Periodic reviews and they're generally corrective and Speaker 3 critical in nature, and I don't have to Speaker 2 be. But these are like, let's see what? After three Speaker 3 months want to do? Like a check want to do? I have a checklist in order to spot? Check, I'm going to go through and we see how things are going. Speaker 1 You feel like you're on the chopping block Speaker 2 that. Yeah, it off. Usually this. And the other thing, I mean, Aubrey Daniels, give some Speaker 3 examples in his book when he talks about this and says, Speaker 2 one of the, some of the evidence we Speaker 3 have for why this isn't a great strategy because almost every company that tries to use performance Speaker 2 appraisal Speaker 3 implements a brand-new version, Asian of that system every two to three years. So it's like they'll try it for a couple of years, doesn't really work. Try something else for a couple of years, doesn't really work Speaker 2 and that's not to be overly critical of the performance Speaker 3 appraisal system, but it's just that that system is based around around. These really evaluative rankings which often can look. It feels bad to be in that position and then it all ends up of the person doing it as well as a person receiving it. Yeah. And it feels like a lose-lose and I think, as Daniels points out, one of the most Speaker 2 Significant breakdowns in this is that we're presuming that, Speaker 3 after 12 months, that will be effective for changing the behavior that happened for the previous 12 months. Yeah. For the next 12 months. Yeah, right. Like, that's just that's way too much distance between the performance of your employees and the feedback on that Speaker 1 performance. Yeah. Which is a huge Point. Here that's immediacy is key when it's, when we're delivering feedback. Yes, absolutely. And I mean, like, if, if I were to say something incorrect, now feedback is now right. I just that quick boom Speaker 2 boom. Yes yeah. Generally as quickly following the performance Speaker 3 as possible is the recommendation. Yep. And sometimes that obviously can't be within a minute or even five minutes sometimes it's within a day or two or something. But if the the more you can Speaker 2 close that Gap to get feedback on performance that we're going to be, Speaker 3 Yeah, the more effective that feedback is going to be. Speaker 2 And so understanding why this might work is a little bit complicated, because it kind Speaker 3 of depends on the nature of the situation, which I know that's that hands, on that kind of sucks. It depends. But I mean, For the most part. What is generally described as why? This might work is that it may change the way the performance is being executed. While all of the relevant features of that context are present, Speaker 2 okay? So, just thinking about, if you just did something in Speaker 3 your job, let's just say, you just wrote a report. Yeah. And then you turn that report in and then within an hour or your boss comes over and goes over that report at still fresh for you, right? You're still there and you have some feedback on it. Speaker 2 So now you're more likely to change your performance. The next Speaker 3 time you're doing a report Port because that feedback was so timely. Speaker 2 Okay. And in addition to changing but Speaker 3 those performances feedback may also serve to Simply maintain the already good performance by acknowledging. This thing that you did was Speaker 2 perfect. Look at here's all the specific Speaker 3 details. Yes. Another element of this Speaker 2 but here's all the specific details of the things that you Speaker 3 did that were exactly. Correct. And then that now you know that like oh cool, I wasn't totally sure as I was doing this. But next time I know that the things I did now I'm going to do those again. Speaker 2 So orienting toward This is the not Speaker 3 just what needs to change but also what do you need to know to continue to do it Speaker 2 correctly? Ya dig. And Speaker 3 now there's some other things in here where they talk about what's called the sandwich method. Have you heard about this? Yes, I have also referred to as the crap Speaker 2 sandwich and the idea about this is that, Speaker 1 here's something good. Yeah. Here's something that you need to do a lot better, right? And you're not so good at and but here's something good to end it. On a positive note and I'm out of here. Speaker 2 Yeah. So the joke. Speaker 1 Sandwich. Yeah. Speaker 2 The general idea is that the, the criticism Or the critical feedback is squished in between two Speaker 3 pieces of Praise or kind of Speaker 1 feedback. Did you look at this in your thesis or any projects? I didn't know. Is that a colleague? Speaker 2 Yeah. That was one of the one of the one of my colleagues did. Look at this and other people have tried to look at this Speaker 3 too. And in general, what I am what I have seen from the research is that Speaker 2 it kind of doesn't matter like a sandwich method. What? It is useful to have a high Speaker 3 level of Praise in there, but it just sandwiching a criticism in between two things might not Speaker 2 necessarily be helpful and I Speaker 1 really think they need some. You have this a consistent pattern like I would just be like get to the point. No Ramon Abraham. Speaker 2 Yeah. What I need to do better. That's one thing that people have brought up is Speaker 3 that it feels in genuine because you're, you know, that's what they're doing. Yeah. And Speaker 2 the other one thing that can happen to is, if you end on that positive note, that might actually downplay the nature Speaker 3 of the corrective feedback, you gave Speaker 2 They're like, well, I guess what? I did wasn't so bad. So, if I do it Speaker 3 again, this, this the same way, then that's all right. Yeah, yeah. I Speaker 2 mean, I probably I'll try and change it, but if I don't, then no big deal. Yeah. And so, which might not necessarily be the case. Speaker 3 Now, there's some other research that I would really, like to spend a whole episode on digging into the research, but this ratio of corrective feedback to praise Speaker 1 feedback. Yeah, this is slightly. Yeah, this would be a good topic kind of drives me crazy. Well, I 12 to 15 to 18 to 16 to 1. There's a lot of Speaker 3 misinformation about it. It and there is actually some research that we can dig into that would help make it more clear Speaker 2 but the general recommendation and not saying why but the general recommendation that is given is that Speaker 3 a 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 positive 2, corrective feedback. As what's Speaker 1 recommended? Why we do? What we do is not answering the why question today? I'm Speaker 3 sorry. It's just that what we do, what we Speaker 2 do or something. Now, another idea, or the last thing to sort of wrap up in this concept of feedback, is this is Speaker 3 associated with the Depth of consequences Speaker 2 and now this technically refers to anything that follows a behavior Speaker 3 and then changes the frequency of that behavior, which is to say it either happens. More happens less, or you could even say happens in a different way Speaker 2 now. But in colloquial terms, and even Speaker 3 generally, when we're talking about organizations, as far as I could tell, this really is still referring to that critical feedback and the need for corrective actions. And sometimes that involves these sort of punitive systems like being written up. Up or sometimes monetary loss or loss of responsibility. Those are types of things that can exist, Speaker 2 that can function. Similar to feedback again, going back to our definition of feedback as Speaker 3 being information, that follows a performance and describes the level of quality of that performance that can have this effect where it is punitive. Yes but again, most of the time, the recommendation is make it positive and try and highlight what is appropriate and what needs to happen more rather than focus on that negative Speaker 1 stuff? Yeah. Roughly a 5 to 1. Speaker 3 Yes, roughly five to one. Speaker 1 All right, so it reminds me of some things I learned in a book called the one minute manager. Yeah. This read that one. Speaker 2 Yeah. This this one is actually a general recommendation, I think because it's so short Speaker 3 and super easy to read and it's like crazy cheap too. Yeah. Speaker 2 I mean, I would recommend looking at Speaker 3 it. I don't know how much it is on Amazon right now or wherever you get your books, Speaker 1 but 10 to 12 ish bucks, Max Speaker 3 Max. Yeah, I think I paid less than a dollar for mine, but a hundred Speaker 1 Pages. It's like The size of a larger Speaker 3 iPhone for this part like an iPad Mini, you could almost put this in your pocket and it's the thing is the books again it's super simple to read and the whole point of this and why I'm talking about this with respect to feedback is Speaker 2 they generally give this strategy for Speaker 3 interacting with employees from a manager position where you are empowering employees to make decisions for themselves that are as long as they're competent to do so that they're able to do. So, Speaker 2 yeah, they don't feel like they have to come to you for every little thing. But yeah, they can. A look, you basically you give them the Speaker 3 skills to identify the nature of the circumstances that they're in, so that they can make the decisions that they are capable of making? Yes, you're not going to ever ask your employees to do something that they're not trained or capable to do or that they shouldn't have that amount of responsibility for, but still Speaker 2 those, but hopefully, hopefully, that's the Speaker 3 idea of the one minute manager. I mean, yes to capitalize on what are the strengths of your employees and how can you Empower them to use those strengths? Speaker 2 Cool, Speaker 1 love it. Alright, next section. Speaker 2 Alright. So another significant Speaker 3 portion of this OBM approach is simply focusing on antecedents and what I mean by that. So Speaker 1 the things that happen before whatever behavior of interest that we're talking about, right? Yeah, it's a response. So these are often what we talk about is our cues right. Making sure we have appropriate cues put in place one thing to kind of paint the picture. I said that my family worked in the mining industry. A incorrect could result in somebody detonating NG TNT when they shouldn't be someone dying. An incorrect could be. I don't know if anyone's ever been at those sites, but they have like 12 foot tall tires. Yeah. On these things and like someone can like they can fall over and crush somebody can get ran over. He can like literally fall off of a ledge if things are done correctly and stable like there's just there's safety hazards everywhere, right? Yeah. And so there's a ton of money time. Attention Care Resources thrown up front has to have we done everything, we can to train people to identify. These are the antecedent Speaker 2 situations. Yeah. So the point is that, and seen in this case, as you Speaker 3 mentioned refers to putting something in place to prevent the problem from ever happening in the first place. This could Speaker 1 be a prompt, some sort of sign a checklist, Speaker 3 right? Yeah. And checklists are an extremely common one. There's a book by called the checklist Manifesto that really is spouses the utility of the Speaker 2 checklist and the checklist has a lot of important Speaker 3 features to it. It's just important to also point out that it's not the end-all be-all of. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Intervene with people, but it's a really great tool at Speaker 3 least for taking that preventative measure of here are all the steps that you need to follow before you even execute this task or, as you execute this task so that you can make sure that you have reduced the risk as much as you possibly Speaker 1 can. Yes, exactly. So, if you're gonna hop in a plane and go flying, I would expect a checklist. We probably got that down pretty well. We have to do in what order, right? And Speaker 2 even the most seasoned Pilots, they still follow the checklist every Speaker 3 single time they get in the car. Of a plane because you can't allow for even a tiny amount of drift because you are talking about hundreds of lives that are in the air at stake for Speaker 2 this. Another part of this Speaker 3 antecedent idea is the feed forward. So we talked about feedback as information that Speaker 1 follows something that have never heard this one. Oh really? Speaker 2 No. Yeah, so feed-forward is it's setting the Speaker 3 expectation for what something is before the performance occurs, Speaker 1 okay? Yeah, I mean this is basically goes missing on an entire site area of psychology. Ecology, no. No, Speaker 2 it's basically an instruction but the point being, Speaker 3 especially if you understand what is a mistake, people are likely to have Speaker 2 yet to get communicating Speaker 3 information about that ahead of time so that they don't have to contact the mistake and get the feedback. It's telling them what to do. Speaker 1 How is this different from setting them up for Speaker 3 Success? It's not, that's exactly what it is. Actually, it is. That that's the whole point of this. And honestly, that's the point of all of these, with the prompts, the signs, the checklist is that you are trying to ensure that people are able to do their job correctly the first time. Yep. And it Speaker 2 I mean, now it's especially Speaker 3 important in high-stakes jobs, where lives are at Speaker 2 risk, but this is also useful in jobs where it's not that lives are at Speaker 3 risk, but people still would rather have their job done correctly, and not have to receive feedback on their performance. If they've Speaker 2 done it correctly, you know what I mean? And it's just, you know, that's a respectful humanistic approach. And so one of the Speaker 3 specific recommendations are to try and answer those wh questions of when you're doing that feed-forward stuff is to tell them specifically who what? When, where why? And how? How about the performance that is expected of? Yeah. So Speaker 2 just think about the specific Speaker 3 details that are necessary and maybe use those questions to guide, developing the kind of instructions that you're going to Speaker 1 give. Yeah. And bring back up. Our we Daniels he worked on. I don't know if there's other colleagues involved but I think called a picnic analysis, right? Yeah. And the idea was used bringing in these antecedents also the behavior and then the outcomes as well. Yeah. So can I give a easy loose framework to understand why people might be doing what they do? Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah this is just a very General approach for looking at the context in which some of these Speaker 3 behaviors occur Speaker 2 in a performance setting and using that to Speaker 3 try and figure out how to we Den approach that that context. Speaker 2 And there's a lot again. This is just like the feedback Speaker 3 thing that over the checklist thing. This isn't the end-all be-all of solving perform performance issues or organizational issues, but it's something that can be really useful and the picnic refers to. There's only really three components is either positive or negative immediate or delayed, or certain or uncertain. Yep. Okay. And so if It's a pick or a pi C, then it's positive immediate and certain. Speaker 2 Yeah. And people are most likely to do things Speaker 3 when the outcome of that action is positive immediate and certain. Yeah. And so, thinking about people who choose smoking over, not smoking, if they are smokers then the experience they have is positive because it feels good its immediate because it happens right away in a certain because they've done it every time and they Speaker 1 know. Yeah and the in exactly here and Speaker 3 the effects of things like, lung cancer are - they are delayed and they're uncertain. Yes. Others like that's not necessarily going to be contributing outcome because it's so far removed from that activity and so that's again, it's a useful Speaker 2 thing to think about when you're looking at Speaker 3 those organizational settings and how you can just apply this little bit of a filter that helps you Orient to what might be some of the relevant features of that. Speaker 1 Yeah. It's I would say it's a great starting point by no means. Is it like the the end-all be-all of understanding? Why we do what we do in the workplace. Yep. Speaker 2 Okay. So another way of looking at this Is called Speaker 3 the system's approach. Speaker 1 I kind of like this systems analysis. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, and that's, that's another word for it. And a lot of this came from the looking at the way that people interact with and how they structure, their organizations. Some people notice Speaker 3 that there was sort of this Silo defect, and what that Speaker 2 means is that the Department's became so Speaker 3 compartmentalised. That it was almost an us-versus-them, sort of thing. You had marketing department versus your research and development department, Speaker 2 Sales department and that they all like don't communicate with each other and Speaker 3 they don't cooperate with each other and they all work as like a team versus the other team. When Speaker 2 they're all part of the same organization working to work towards the same mission to exactly. And the managers can fall into the Trap of. And again, they're just people that are doing the best that they can but they fall into the Trap of Speaker 3 treating them as if they are separate organizations that don't have lines of Speaker 1 cooperation. So is the. So if this is a tiered hierarchical kind of siloed system is A recommendation than to go more flat and horizontal. Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. So if if it was normally vertical than the recommended approach in a Speaker 3 systems analysis is to look at it from a horizontal approach Speaker 2 and what this really emphasizes is understanding the customer the product and the overall workflow and that workflow includes all those different departments and it Speaker 3 also specifically talks about the inputs and outputs like that's a huge piece of this. Yes. And so they're looking at how various groups or Speaker 2 departments input to other groups and the Speaker 3 outputs are Those groups, and the initial group as well. So how they interact, how they cooperate, how does it all work? Together reminds me of guy go. Speaker 1 What's that garbage in garbage out? Oh, the idea is like, you need to like, look at the fine detail of like what information is Flowing from where to where? Yeah, because it all ends up impacting and just kind of could trigger all sort of hiccups right? Your entire Speaker 2 system, right? Well and so another thing that's so useful about Speaker 3 looking at it in this way really as you just said is that you can sort of start to identify, where are their breakdown It's where are their inputs that don't exist? But should wear are there maybe outputs that aren't really contributing to this. And this sort of wasted time and effort. Yeah, Speaker 2 so you can identify all Speaker 3 these different parts of the workflow Speaker 2 where things are less than Speaker 3 ideal and trying to optimize that system. So, the process can be more streamlined and more cooperative and then people are working together to facilitate the mission of that organization. Speaker 1 Yes. And one thing I've found it's like crucial years. Like not only do you need to understand all of the different variables going on to the system. But the leadership and those sort of change agents and the organization are the key people to be working with and getting on board. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's something that they talk about a lot, is that, if you can change the leadership Behavior, then you Speaker 3 can often change the way the entire organization moves. Speaker 2 Yes. And again, I don't want to point the blame and just Speaker 3 say managers are at fault here. A lot of times they're doing the best that they can but Speaker 2 sometimes you can give them skills, that allow Speaker 3 them to structure the organization and just a more efficient way and make it a better work experience for themselves and their employees. Speaker 2 Now there are some interesting Speaker 3 elements of understanding how the organization operates Speaker 2 because when you look at that Speaker 3 complex of a system where there's so many inputs and outputs and so many people with all of their different experiences and personalities trying to get along together Speaker 2 to work towards something and maybe they don't. Sometimes, there is this really interesting book Speaker 3 that was published called a paradox of organizational change. Yes. Speaker 2 And they talk about these Speaker 3 the, the different paradoxes Where Speaker 2 it is dynamic but Speaker 3 constant and what they mean is that organizations are Dynamic places that are sort of moving with the economy and the times and the incoming and outgoing Personnel, but the process for accounting for change actually remains constant, the especially the monitoring aspect of this and the, the philosophy, underlying, how to understand why that change takes place that part doesn't actually change, but the organization itself is very Dynamic. Yes, another part of this is that the environmental context in which people Bulwark is very complex, you've got language, you've got memory, you've got all these learning history. You've got muscle memory from performing Speaker 2 the task, all of these things that are involved in this complex environment and yet a lot of the solutions to change Speaker 3 some of these things and to help improve them or make them safer or whatnot. They're really Simple Solutions. That can be put in place that often are just one or two little changes that make a world of difference. Speaker 2 And then the last one is that you have this chaos versus control and And what can happen is, you can never Speaker 3 control all of the variables that are relevant, all of the factors that are contributing to how an organization works. Speaker 2 And so, it feels chaotic because this is a lot going on. Yeah, and probably people who, who are at the upper levels even in really Speaker 3 well-organized businesses, they can feel that chaos. Yeah. Speaker 2 But nevertheless when you have these good procedures in Speaker 3 place than the change actually proceeds in a pretty orderly and predictable way. Speaker 1 Yeah, I totally agree. This is a row That I slowly worked myself and found myself in for, I don't know, probably like half of more of my day job now. Yeah, it's kind of weird looking back on. Yeah, I would totally agree with this. It is every It seems impossible to be able to understand every moving part, not that you always do, right? Yeah. And this to add to the chaotic part of it, you can Implement a change and then it affects things that you weren't planning on an affecting at all and kind of create these on hiccups in your own system. Yeah, do you like? All right. We have these ten problems, this will cover five of them and it actually fix those five but it added two more. Yeah. You're like, okay, net 3. What's the next thing? Speaker 2 And I actually have a whole section about that. When I talk about Speaker 3 some of the outcomes, the unanticipated outcomes of these things when we get to the ethics piece. Speaker 1 Okay. Cool. I think will bring bring that back up. Yeah, Speaker 2 and there's next part is I think that you are Speaker 3 especially well versed in is this pay-for-performance thing. So what's that? Yes, so pay Speaker 1 for performance was an area that I got really interested in because it kind of came about when I was getting into just Speaker 3 Do I work Speaker 1 with with teams in an organizational setting? And I was like, well there's this idea of if you can pay people for the outcomes that they're supposed to be producing as opposed to just the time, right? Of them, them engaging, whatever task it is like maybe you could get more of an efficient system and a happy employee out of it, right? Yeah. Absolutely. And so one big book that I ran into was the sin of wages, we definitely have to link to that book. Have you read it? Yeah, I guess. And he describes in here, he brings in the total performance system correct? Yeah. So the total performance system I'm going to quote directly from his book because I mean it's his words, all right. Abernathy great. And so he says the total performance system is described as having components which include the performance scorecard profit, indexed performance, pay and positive leadership. So I think those three things are the biggest differences. As like view, you need to have those three critical features for a total performance system. So the first one the performance scorecard, this is And essentially what are the bare minimum expectations for your job that you'll be meeting. But also what are the things we want to see a little bit more of. And then the second part comes in here and we're going to index whatever profit that we can in the legal infrastructure that we have in organization, it functions differently. Depending on whether or not you're in a non-for-profit and if your for-profit different corpse and whatnot but we're going to link your performance on those things to whatever is made in the organization and then the last Part. Is this you've hit on this? The positive leadership, right? Yeah like focusing on what not Speaker 2 now it sounds like this could Speaker 3 become this really unfair coercive system if it's like you feel like you're working too hard for the money that you're getting, but most of the time if this is implemented correctly and when it has Speaker 2 been implemented correctly, that people tend Speaker 3 to really like this because they are so much in control of what they earn. Yeah. And so, they can, they will work. You make the choice to work as hard as meets, whatever they kind of want to do Speaker 2 and then they get paid exactly in conversation with that. So for those people that might Speaker 3 be listening to this who work in a place where you see the other person over there, who seems like they barely do anything at all and they're they're making the same amount of money you are and you're working super hard that you that might be really frustrating to you. Yeah. That it feels like you know why should you work hard? And if they're getting you know paid the same Speaker 2 amount and this system then capitalizes on Speaker 3 like you cancel out slack off and Slouch and work as little as you want. You just won't get paid very much. Yeah. And the person is working really hard gets paid quite a bit more, commensurate with how much work, they're actually producing. Speaker 1 Yeah. So typically, there's set up where there's some sort of base salary, that is there any kind of Meet the minimum regulations and we're for whatever setting it is that you're working in, which is important. Yes, Speaker 3 can't just not pay people. Speaker 1 Yes. And then, and then from there, based on your position is typically how its setup. There's a specific core card, the links to certain outcomes and organizational Decent goals, Speaker 2 which is great. Yep. All right. And so there is sort of a difference here where you that this Speaker 3 doesn't happen very often now but there are these jobs called piece rate work and the point is that you get money or you get compensated, basically, for every product that you produce and it could be a lot of money over a little money depending on the time and effort and resources. It takes to make that thing. So just thinking about people who are in a factory compiling, an object of some kind, they might decide Gonna sleep in. Today I'm going to come in around 12 and 14 hours and make a hundred bucks. Doing that sort of thing. Yeah. Or maybe a little less. That's pretty good compensation. Speaker 2 Yeah. Or they're like I'm gonna get there at 6 Speaker 3 a.m. and I don't work until they kick me out at 8 p.m. and I'm going to make a thousand dollars today. Yeah, I don't know if that's possible but the Speaker 2 point being that they have so much control Speaker 3 over the amount of work that they do that. They are sometimes often more likely to choose to work harder because they can earn more money doing that, right? Yeah. And a lot of one of the things that's pointed out and here is that when you People for their time. What you get from them is their time? Yes. And if you pay people for their work, then when you get from them as their work. Yes. And I was actually in this really interesting situation that I didn't quite understand with respect to this. And I feel like I do now where I was salary, but what was interesting about my salary position is I had a certain amount of expected Speaker 2 work to get done. And as long as I got that work done, I was done. Yes. Go home. So my incentive was, like, show up early work Speaker 3 as hard and as fast as I possibly. Possibly can and go home at noon and be done for Speaker 2 the rest of the. Yeah. And like, I could pull that off sometimes. There were many times I was home by two or three Speaker 3 because, you know, I showed up and I worked as hard as I could to get all of my work done in a timely manner, so that I went home and like that system was really effective at getting me to work super hard and I loved it because I Speaker 2 was getting paid Speaker 3 and I was, you know, the same amount and I was able to spend actually quite a bit of time at home or doing other things that I needed to do because I could manage my own behavior. That way Speaker 1 I've worked on that side. I've also like probably you as well, but on the other side of that as well to where there's just so many demands being thrown at you that you just working over forever and ever and ever, Speaker 2 right? And that is how the Speaker 3 salary system can totally be abused as well. Speaker 2 But otherwise, that's, that's an important part of it. And then, I think another Speaker 3 important part of the pay-for-performance system is this really frequent assessment of performance so that pay can be modulated pretty quickly based on how performance is Speaker 1 going. Yeah, it takes a lot of Of coordinated effort in the organization to pull. These sort of things off, we've been working for about three years and a nonprofit that I work for on, trying to position ourselves, to be able to implement like something that's pretty close to something like this. Yeah, it looks a little different, as a different feel because it's a non-profit, you can't profit share in those situations. Sure. But you can through some very clear, legal infrastructure, it set up, do some similar things and still motivate employees in that sense? Yeah, I mean, I think Speaker 3 for the most part where this has been Lamented people tend to really enjoy the pay for performance Speaker 2 system, but that's Speaker 3 not to say that that's the only way or even the best way to make every business work and especially think about those people who their ability to work. Depends on people showing up to that business. Yeah, going to retail industry. Speaker 2 If no one comes Speaker 3 in the day that you come into work and you can't sell anything. And you don't like, there's nothing for you to do then. It's like you go there and put in your time, but you get, like, you can't earn any money, no matter how hard you would have worked. Given the opportunity. And so maybe that's not necessarily the best type of organization to have the system in place Speaker 1 in. Yeah. All right. So that's pay-for-performance now Performance Management the other Speaker 2 side. Yeah. Okay. So and this goes back to that Aubrey Daniels book that we talked about and he mentions feedback quite a bit in there and he really starts by talking about what is Performance Management and he describes it as the this is a system that is designed specifically to bring out the best. In Speaker 3 people also the title of one of Books Speaker 2 and Brilliant. And I mean this is really supposed to be a humanistic approach. This is like make this a positive work environment where people in you know are happy to be at work and enjoy their job and they get Speaker 3 along and it's creating this Speaker 2 positive culture Speaker 3 and this work environment and he Speaker 2 specifically points out that the reason that people like the performance management system is because it works Speaker 3 that he even report some data that they reduced turnover and an organization by half and just three months. It's Speaker 2 that it has both short and long-term effects and that it needs. No formal psychological training. In order to do it, it maximizes performance, it creates that enjoyable work environment, that I mentioned Speaker 1 sounds like some snake oil here that you're selling me Abraham. I mean it kind of does but Speaker 2 he's not he's not making the case that this Speaker 3 will solve all organizational problems. Just that this overall system is likely to have these outcomes. Speaker 2 And then the last two that he Speaker 3 boasts, are that it enhances Speaker 2 relationships and it creates an opportunity. Speaker 3 Open system and part of what he means by an open system. Here is like this Speaker 2 isn't just tricks, this isn't this manipulative sneaky system where people Speaker 3 don't know what's going on, it should be really clear and well, spelled out what's happening, so that Speaker 2 people can use Speaker 3 it. And it's not this like Shadow government thing. It is people are open and transparent about what's going on and I haven't really said what the performance management system Speaker 2 is so he really just describes Performance Management as As I mean, kind of just generally what we've been talking about with OBM, and that is the techniques. Derived from these operant learning Speaker 3 principles to create a positive work environment by using things like positive reinforcement, encouragement, leadership feedback Speaker 2 and these other systems to Speaker 3 make to make the environment. A place that is that brings out the best in people. Speaker 2 And so it's actually not anything really specific but it's useful to bring up because it can also go under that Speaker 1 name. All right, so the next section that we have I think our last section Speaker 2 Is safety and ethics. Yeah, there's a whole field Speaker 3 inside of organizational, behavior management. I don't mean field, I guess it's a particular area of focus for many people who do research and work in this area. Speaker 2 That's focusing specifically on Speaker 3 safety in the workplace and this is often referred to as BBS or behavior-based safety. Yeah. Okay. And Speaker 2 they talked about essentially two components of this being either external change Speaker 3 or internal change. And that both of those things are necessary for. Or to create the safe environment and Speaker 2 external change refers to modifying equipment, doing training for staff, Speaker 3 doing training for leadership, having reminders signs, and other signs, or rounds that are, that should be helpful in facilitating. Those safe things Speaker 2 checklists, and anything of that Speaker 3 nature. That is the on that preventative angle. Yes. So make sure we have the right equipment. The right type of clothing, all the expectations are clear on that front end to minimize the risk and On the internal side, what that really means is teaching your employees, giving them the Speaker 2 skills and training so that they Speaker 3 can make sure that they are engaging in the safe behaviors and they are reducing the risk for themselves. Okay. Speaker 1 Kind of has lived with that one minute Speaker 2 manager feel. Yeah. Absolutely. It does. And so, again, this is not to blame employees for when bad things happen to them, but if you can teach Speaker 3 them the skills to do, all of the safe behaviors that are involved in Speaker 2 a particular performance. Then that means Speaker 3 that there Less likely to get hurt and that's a win-win situation. Yes. We don't want people to get hurt in organizations, not just because of lawsuits or workers Speaker 2 comp, but because like we don't want people to get hurt their human. Yes. And with, so the really are bringing the actions in line with our values, Speaker 3 it with respect to treating people, the humanistically and ensuring a safe work environment, which I think everybody deserves. Speaker 2 And so a lot of the safety stuff comes into Speaker 3 identifying and minimizing risky situations doing as much as possible to prevent injury. And there's one thing specifically, I was interested in in ergonomics Speaker 2 and that. Okay. Yeah. And so that refers to the way that the Speaker 3 environment is arranged in such a way that it facilitates, those safe behaviors. Speaker 2 And so, I did a little Speaker 3 project where I worked in a coffee shop and very low stakes. Speaker 2 Yeah, if we could get burned but Speaker 3 we were actually just looking at the how how efficient their system was, Speaker 2 and what they wanted to Speaker 3 do was Speaker 2 the way that they had their equipment setup. Up for them to make a cup of coffee, Speaker 3 require them to like go back and forth across the little kitchen area, like four or five times, just to make one, one latte or something. And so what the the project was to look at Speaker 2 what if we just put all this Speaker 3 quick equipment in like a row, so that you move down more like a Speaker 1 kind of an assembly line. Yes, has a close to this like, Butterfly Effect. We are all over Speaker 2 the place. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Speaker 3 some more of that assembly line. Feel of, like, do this, then do this, do this and it goes in order and ending at sort of the coffee bar with a drink has produced two Speaker 1 questions is Count the number of steps taken. Yes, second question, did people enjoy it when you streamline it or was it more like this monotonous Speaker 2 process? It was neither of those things. They mostly seemed indifferent. But we were Speaker 3 we were like, hey we at least made it seem like it was more efficient. They're like and we had it but this is fine too. Speaker 2 Yeah, Speaker 1 so I'm like I worked I ask because I worked in a, I had a project that was through school and my master's program we went into a grocery store chain. One that's really a Publix. Don't in Florida. Yeah and it was fun. We looked at some things but it was largely the same thing. Like we helped a little and it was like Hey look it's manageable but it wasn't like you made my life so much better. Thank you. Thank Speaker 3 you. Yeah. Well that's the purpose of these projects weren't necessarily to change the world. Yeah it was mostly to see like on a very small scale. What would this look like and that he can you imagine or try and draw parallel to between that and some like larger scale or who's like? Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah yeah. Speaker 2 And yeah the basic. So things like simply putting Speaker 3 handles on things that need to be carried rather than have people try to pick them up from the bottom. Yeah, arranging it. So that there is places for two people to carry. Making it so that storage fits in a particular way or is color-coded just arranging the way that things Speaker 2 are shaped so that they Speaker 3 Contour more easily to wait till the way that we move and manipulate objects. All of that's wrapped up in the side of. And this ergonomics Speaker 1 thing I have my entire, like, Studio setup in my workplace setting is to where I don't have to move as much as I necessarily want to. Yeah. This is efficiently as possible. Speaker 2 Yeah. And another part of another, I mean, Speaker 3 the ergonomics of those like what I was talking about another part of the safety thing, though, is better access to Safety Systems? Making sure they're clearly labeled that there's training on how to get to them and how to use them. When you do that, all of that is involved in, not only the preventative angle, but how do we react to situations of danger when they Speaker 1 happen? Yes. A little red little signs that say, like eyewash station and all that. It's not like hidden in the corner but it's like actually out where your Speaker 2 That and and clearly visible sort of things. Yeah, exactly at my work. For example Speaker 3 where the first aid kit is there's a big giant like Red Cross right over it so that we know where to go find it if we ever need it. Speaker 2 Yeah. Another one is just to have those frequent Speaker 3 trainings to make sure everyone is up to date and well practiced at all of the things that are going to be safety behaviors. Speaker 1 Yep. This is something I've helped Implement often times I've been in systems where it's like a yearly training and so my first thing is like, okay, how do we systems? Why is get to the point where we can start doing those? Quarterly. Yeah. How do we move those two monthly which one's need to be coordinated versus monthly on? Speaker 2 This is just like if you're ever going to be CPR, Speaker 3 trains that you have to get, you have to renew that certification every couple of years. Yep, it's and make sure that you are on up-to-date on all the currents procedures and if you haven't used them in the last couple of years that you get a refresher course, on how to do it build up, that, that habit, and that practice, with that sort of thing. And another way that you can deal with the safety is to practice the correct behavior and a non dangerous sort of simulation environment. They do this with Pilots all the Speaker 1 time. He's kind of comes back that muscle memory idea, right? And the right cues. Speaker 2 Right? Exactly. So if you might practice with like a virtual reality Speaker 3 machine of some way of like how you interact with things that you're not actually doing it in a place where you could get harmed, but it Speaker 2 looked has all the same. Contextual Speaker 3 features of the harmful environment and you can practice doing it safely and get feedback on that without the Speaker 1 risk. An interesting other angle to look at that. I thought on this a few times is like if you take those dangerous situations out. Yes, it's more safe. Safe to practice some of those situations but like, are you Increasing the likelihood that like those won't be taken seriously in Speaker 2 the future, it's possible. And I think that the Speaker 3 other part about this, then that's important is to have the real word world practice where your Shadow shadowing, a mentor or a veteran, Speaker 2 someone who really knows what they're doing. Yeah. And that way, you can be in Speaker 3 that real situation and it's not that you're just teaching yourself to be desensitized to the gravity of the situation. There is both the practice, in terms of the low intensity low stakes and that can be fun. And maybe people have, you know, they're silly about it and what not. But then when you're out there in the actual situation, have someone who knows what they're doing. So that you can be a part of that real-life situation that can be part of that training as Speaker 1 well. So it's building some competence in certain areas but it's not the end-all be-all exactly correct. Speaker 2 Now, in terms of both the safety and the ethics, the reason I wanted to group these together is because I think Speaker 3 they're inherently related and the ethics referring to this values. Portion of we're not just here to like minimize lawsuits, but we're here to improve human health because they're going here for a a job. Like they shouldn't have to worry about their Speaker 2 lives when they yeah, to a job. Speaker 3 I mean, there are obviously, there are jobs that are more dangerous than others, but it's much as possible, reducing that risk, so that you understand going into it that you're probably going to come out of it. That's what most people want when they're going in. Some people do take those high-risk jobs because they are really important and that's great. And you know, we appreciate the people who do that Speaker 1 and hashtag Hazard pay. Speaker 2 Yeah. And at the same time most people go in expecting they're going to be able to come Speaker 3 home again and that they should have that opportunity. Not as much as possible, right? Yes. And Speaker 2 so, inside of Speaker 3 these trainings, is that ethics of the value of human life and work. And what what these or what this is all about? Speaker 2 And also this is there's this concept of what's called Speaker 3 externalities. Have you heard of this one? No, Speaker 2 this is related to sort of what you meant about Speaker 3 the the effect of the change in a work environment. And Speaker 2 so it's not just, hey, great. We got our employees to work more, Speaker 3 hooray. Yeah, you know, Speaker 2 There's also considering what does that mean for them? Are you getting people to work harder for Speaker 3 the same amount of pay? Yeah. Are you getting people to produce a lot more but have like actual fewer opportunities to grow? And so it's considering what is the effect of this for the employees? That's part of this ethics angle. Speaker 2 Okay. And I mean, yeah. And that's almost Speaker 3 not even an externality a real external, I mean it is kind of, but externality, refers to the other unintended consequences. Like, okay, let's say we get this, we're going to take this perfume company that uses way. Blubber, I don't know. I'm making this up, but they're using some rare resource. That is a finite resource to make their product and like, okay, cool. Well, we're going to Purdue or an increase their efficiency, so they can make more and more and more, and more of their stuff and sell it. Well, that also means that we're killing all the whales in the ocean. Yeah, it doesn't externality or it's creating all of these one time use disposable products that are filling up, our landfills. Speaker 2 Yeah. And so it's thinking about all of the unintended Speaker 3 outcomes of any type of intervention related to things like the environments. The The impact of the economy, the people who work there. And so Speaker 2 like, it's all well and good to make business efficient. But always Speaker 3 keeping in mind, what are our values? And what else is going to be affected by this change? Speaker 1 So it's the outcomes of why we do we do but it's also the outcomes of why we don't do what we don't do. Sure right. Yeah, Speaker 2 okay yeah, no on a serious note. One of the biggest Speaker 1 lessons, I learned and it's been extremely helpful and you just hit on it is not only do we need to pay attention to the outcomes and like what's going on. But also like why are we not seeing these other things happening, right, right. All the not Behavior, the stuff not happening in this context. It's can sometimes shed a lot of light is so like why the certain things are happening right Speaker 2 now. And that comes back to when you Speaker 3 pointed out in the organization where you work, like sometimes you'll have a solution that solves five problems but creates two more. Yeah, it's that creating two more that's part of those externalities Speaker 2 and a lot of times we can't Speaker 3 predict what those will be. Speaker 2 But over time as we get better and better at this, we should be able to Speaker 3 get better at predicting what those things are Speaker 2 going to be and then how to Speaker 3 Anticipate them and prevent them from being Speaker 1 a problem. Yep. And I've always taken that also and in this situation as we're like, we all usually work with folks in h.r., organizational development. When we craft these sort of solutions, we figure out which ones are likely to happen. Are we okay with it? Communicate, those as much as we can of front. Would you call that you call that not feedback? Feed-forward feed-forward. Yeah. So feed-forward, we do that. And then it's just group like, leadership / mentality and the organization of the, hey, Going to take a step forward, see what hiccups for hop happen. And then we're going to reiterate, we're going to set forward step forward. Step Speaker 2 forward awesome. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's, I think most organizations are going to try and do that anyway. But at least Speaker 3 within the organizational behavior management approach, it's pretty systematize, and they have a lot of tools for how to approach that in that systematic way, Speaker 1 is that all the ethic singles that you wanted to hear. Speaker 2 I mean, yeah, for the most part, it's understanding that when we're doing organization behavior management, or Speaker 3 anyone not just, you know, so, but Speaker 2 whoever's out there. Yeah. In this behavioral psychology organizational psychology, this Speaker 3 isn't being manipulative, right. The point is again to create that Speaker 2 positive work environment, that is safe and Speaker 3 is actively caring for people and their place of work and having respect for them as human beings and their lives. Speaker 1 Love it. All right, ready to take home. Yep, let's wrap it up. Alright, so my kind of three bullet points would be first. There are a lot of resources that are out there. We're going to link a bunch of them. Speaker 3 You have a whole library of Just Books on Speaker 1 this. Yeah yeah I wrote up a blog post one time I think with 12 different links and you included probably 12 more. So we have a lot of resources out there anything from some free things kind of, check out two things you can go pay for check those in the show notes on the website. Next thing the degree in like certificate programs are out there for people that are interested in learning more. My two cents is sometimes You're a good move. Sometimes you can just work within your organization work on. These sort of things, kind of depends on what your background is right, how much training you have when it comes like these principles or not? That's my two cents. That's fair. And then the next thing is last point is really a requires a lot of skill sets but it's not necessarily the ones that you learn in books all the time. Like it's very heavily like those are important but it was the experience of the mentorship in these contexts that have helped me. And I learned so much that I can bring to the table things when it comes to organizational behavior management. But HR like I never realized how valuable that perspective would be when it came to implementing things. So I'm like, hey based on Behavior like and what I know about cues and these were things we should do this. Like well you can't really do that but you can do X Y and Z. Yeah. And organizational development also brought that in and it wasn't like, I was being unethical and proposing, those sort of things. There's just like, little minut things like a non-profit law, that I just did not know that we're out there. Sure. So it's been really useful to have a lot of people surrounding me with those And the end of the day, it's much, I guess the take home as much more learning about how to apply these sort of principles with group behavior in that business Speaker 2 context. Yeah, and so, I mean, just to hit the point before that organizational behavior management. What that what? That Speaker 3 means that that description that label is just that's Speaker 2 applying Behavior psychology to a workplace or other Speaker 3 organization where you have those people working together, right? Speaker 2 And this differs from other approaches, as I mentioned industrial organizational psychology Speaker 3 often just referred to as IO. Ow, Speaker 2 because in the OBM perspective, it focuses on those Speaker 3 measurable behaviors and on those actionable results. Speaker 2 So that it's those are things that can be objectively looked at Speaker 3 and there's not as much sort of evaluation of like, the relative worth of people or their contributions just saying, here are. Here's What's Happening Here, our goals and here's other other considerations around what might happen in this situation and there's a lot of important stuff to consider in here. We mentioned several Strategies. And so you can find those in some of the references that we Linked In the show notes. In addition to that, just always keeping in mind, the ethical considerations and especially around things like safety. And those externalities, those things we don't necessarily plan for but pretty much. That's a that's when I got on lbm. Awesome. So now that you've learned immediate feedback is super important and a part of this go write your review helped us out. Help us out give us feedback. Thank you so much. I think that's it. This is Ryan. Oh this is Abraham's time to sign off. We're out. Speaker 1 You've been listening to why we do what we do. Why we do what we do is supported in part by our amazing patrons. Thank you. If you like what you heard consider becoming a patron by heading to patreon.com W WD W, WD podcast. You can also rate and review us wherever you, get your podcast or share this episode with your friends. If you have any comments or questions, we'd love to hear from you. Find us at WD podcast on your favorite social media platforms. You can learn more about this and other episodes by going to wwd wwd podcast.com there. You'll find links as well as detailed and shareable show notes why we do. What we do is research and produce by Abraham Ryan. Oh Shane, and Miranda artwork and logo design by Andrew Pollock at nog design.com video, and production assistants from Tyler Brashear with music, courtesy of Justin Greenhouse. Thanks. For listening and we hope you have an awesome day. Speaker 3 If all right, I just want to note that if I'm the one editing. This, I'm note to myself to take all of those Speaker 2 cuts and put them at the tail end. Yeah. So paper for Speaker 3 should television out. Take all right. Yes. So paper for Port, are Speaker 1 you kidding me? Speaker 2 That was great. All right, I'm gonna good mood for this now. Speaker 1 Here we go. Take three alright yes pay for / goddamn it Speaker 2 hooks up with my voice. Right now. Do you? What's going on here? Speaker 1 All right, so there's paper. Why is that so hard to say, dude? Pay for performance. Jesus Speaker 2 Christ. Speaker 1 I'm not doing this on Speaker 2 purpose. Makes it better. All right, so that's pay-for-performance. I can't say you got to do this. All right, so that's pay-for-performance now, Performance Management. All right, so that's pay-for-performance. I can't say you got to do this. All right, so that's pay-for-performance now, Performance Management.