08.05 Everybody's the Cops

But like, in the MLS, like, that's a massive rivalry. Like, I wouldn't expect these two cities to be like, "You know what? The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Yeah. I should have let you finish that and spectacular Shane. I knew it. No, I did. But I had to say, I was thinking it through. I think we can all get on board with the. the truth. Hey, everybody, welcome back to Too Many Men. My name is Allison Luchan, and today I am delighted to be joined by someone who inspires me in a very specific way. This woman crushes a low-key power move. Workouts like a frickin' boss. Peloton queen. Just casually posting about going in for a cut because she's, you know, just banging out like deadlifts of a million pounds, like, what a badass you are. Sarah Simeon, how are you? Thank you so much, Allison. I am in definitely my long bike era. Maybe I'll sign up for a race to see what happens, but I am excited to be looking out every day and it's gratitude there. You've been doing it for quite some time. It's very impressive. And if you end up going outside, we can discuss road bikes all day long. Yeah, and while you're the spin queen herself, so crazy to be saying this about me, thank you. Well, take your flowers. We, of course, would not be too many men without the insider gossip girl extraordinaire. And hot take artist, I'm gonna say Shane, you were particularly on your game this weekend with so much going on making sure that we didn't lose sight of some key storylines, many of which have made it onto our agenda here. But it is, of course, the brilliant Shana Goldman, Shana say hi. Hi, yeah, just trying to sort through, you know, a million NHL stories with a million games at a time, hanging on by a thread, happy fucking October. Well, we are gonna get right into it. And now we have all kinds of recommendations for our musical instruments. We have trumpets. I think I got one that was banjo. So again, we're now at this phase, my friends, where if you're a listener, and if you can play it, what is the status of rich, Shana? I've brought it up and he didn't say anything. I was like, you played trumpet right? And he was like, yeah, can you still? And he just, he gave me nothing. Well, all right, if rich, rich, we love you so much. And we talk about you all the time. We may downvote this engagement situation if you're not gonna give us a trumpet, you're marrying into too many men. This should be clear by now. If rich isn't gonna give us the trumpet, dear listeners, if you have a banjo or a trumpet or whatever instrument you are recommending, send us a recording. You may make it into the transition for what Sarah? - Well, I still have the drum and it's downstairs. So if you want me to bring it back for like a few episodes or something, I'm down. But without further ado, it's time to bit. Oh, news. All right, bit. Oh, news. All right. This happened almost a week ago, but it still was so seismically incredibly amazing. We have to talk about it. We were excited for it. We thought it would be just totally electric. And I must say it exceeded my expectations. Brady Cuchuck heel turns and goes back to Ottawa as a member of the Florida Panthers. And I have never been more impressed by a full organizational response from the fact that the senators controlled that game and won it definitively to the epic fans to the chef of Tim Stutzla joining in the roast to just, did you see the clip too that's come out now where they ask all of the senators' players if Sanderson talks about his gold medal at all? Have you seen this? - No, I don't think I saw that one. - There's so much. - They put out a TikTok about where they're like, does Jake Sanderson talk about his gold medal? And everyone's like, no, not much at all. And not unless we ask him, like it's incredible. Sarah, like we were all just texting as we watched this 'cause it was so good. It may be one of the, it may be an instant classic best hockey game of all time. What was your favorite part of that whole game and experience? - My favorite part was that Brady Cuchuck scored and they lost. Something about that was poetic and it kind of described exactly where the, both of the franchises are right now where like the, I mean, he won in a hat trick event, but still the Senators had been winning the war, even though Cuchuck might be winning a few battles along the way. - Janeau, what stood out to you? - I just love the fan commitment to it and like there's been a lot of talk of like comparisons and like let's just, the schedule last week of just numerous returns. It worked out well so you really could compare them head-to-head to head like Marchenko and Nyes return. Obviously there's not that same level of hatred as there is here, understandably so, but it just feels like Senators fans were so ready. They crushed it, start to finish. There was a consistency in the chance and you just felt the energy, even watching it at home. Like I feel like that's harder to like come through. Sometimes it's like all the vibes and experience here are so great, but you don't always get that. It feels like you did and I think the Amazon Prime broadcast did a great job of it, but like, I think also the side note favorite part of it, outside of the game was like the reaction around the league and hearing William Neelander like gossip about it. - Oh my God. - With the reporters in the scrum. Like it was so girly pop coated everything that he did start to finish and the way he's like, oh, was it how did it compare to John's? I was just loving it 'cause, you know, - With the snakes. - With the snakes. Yeah, like did he get snakes thrown on him? Because that to me and I am biased here, but it's like a 10 out of 10 on the scale of like hatred level. They're burning jerseys in the parking lot, running them over like there was so much there and I feel like long Islanders as a baseline are probably big wrestles and Canadians in Ottawa. Like it's just the way we are. But that was close. Like I'd give that like an eight and a half hour and nine out of 10 on like the Tavari scale. - Here's my counter point. It's exactly that and we talked about this. It's like Canadians inherently aren't New Yorkers, right? So for them to be that hateful and spiteful for a full 60 minutes of gameplay was an exceptional effort, Sarah. - Well, I always say the Canadians are the nicest people, best people in the world about everything except hockey and there we go with that. Just the chirps, it wasn't even just, I think the most Canadian part about it, like two-year point. It wasn't New York, well, I'm not gonna say anything new, we love New York, but at the same time, like New York and Boston are both one and the same where it comes to just like, maybe they're not so creative, just vulgar, just right to the point, right? But now Canadians had to like make it a little creative with the F Your Podcasts. That's hilarious because it's like, it's more about not just, it was for the greater good. Canadians are for the greater good and I think you can all say F Your Podcasts. - And it was so personalized, right? Like I think that's the thing, the creativity of all of the chants, how many different ones they were, to get the entire crowd on board with so many of these different chants too. Like, this was not your state, like calling someone a snake, kind of standard, obviously stood out when we look at like the hockey scale of it because we don't exactly see snakes being thrown on the ice on a regular basis. But like, to come up with that many different chants and get so many people on board, that's great work. - Yeah, very, very, I like, and that's the thing too. Like, to get the chance to spread, and like I still, and you brought this up already, Shane, so let's go into a bigger dialogue about all of this because this week, not, it started off with the banger of Brady Kachak returning. - No, it started with Marchenko Nies, which was, but there was nothing there. - I was used to include that in this conversation. Like that was embarrassing. It actually started with Brady Kachak returning to Ottawa. Then we have Kutter Goetje getting fuck you Kutter chance in Philly. Then we have Queen Hughes returning to Vancouver, and I'm still not 100% sure why or how this happened, but the wild were in Seattle the night before the wild were in Vancouver. I don't know if Vancouver fans came down or if Seattle fans were suddenly aligned, but like, Queen Hughes was getting booed in Seattle. Like every time he touched the puck, I'm like, literally, we're all like, I'm texting other members on the media. I'm like, did I miss something? 'Cause obviously we have headsets on, and they're like, none of us know what's going on. But like, so-- - So it's a little pride. (laughing) - You wouldn't think either, too. Like, isn't that a big rivalry for like other? I know it's different. Like, I don't think the Connects and Kraken have been in the right place at the right time to have that like true rivalry that got there. Like, I wouldn't expect these two cities to be like, you know what, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Yeah, I should have let you finish that in spectacular. - I knew it, no I did, but I had to say I was thinking it through. - I think we can all get on board with the the chirps and I feel like Seattle was riding the momentum, especially the wild where like, what was the, where the connox, the one that we're like, he's not signing. - Yes. - That was epic. - And then they started chanting, we want the cup after they scored a goal. - See, they have a sense of humor and I think Seattle can appreciate that. - Correct. So here's my thing, like are we all this summer and the start of the season, the whole dialogue has been player empowerment era, right? Like this whole thing of players taking control of where they want to be for better or worse and we're going to get into that a little bit more in a second, obviously. But are things changing on the fan side? Are fans like in all seriousness, big picture? Are we entering some sort of fan empowerment era where like Brady didn't even, like they booed through his welcome back video, right? And like, is something starting to change on the fan side, Sarah, or am I overthinking this? - Is it too woke to say that this is kind of a product of late stage capitalism, me at 10 o'clock say I'm like, I think we talk about the prices for games, the kind of lack of Pride games and everything and you're like, you want to align yourself with maybe people taking a stand in the right direction. So when there's like a group of people taking a stand and maybe the opposite direction or taking no stand, you kind of, you're bitter towards them. And I don't know, it might not be political, but it might be like subconsciously political where you're looking at even Tik Tok lately and Tik Tok comment sections and it's very much everybody's the cops and like people don't, people want to like call you up or anything because everyone's angry and I'm part of that when I'm like getting triggered at a random influencer or something, but it's like the customer wants to be right again, maybe maybe there's something to be said about that or maybe it's just like all of these guys were on team USA, it's tough to say. Nina, is there is there something changing here in the whole particularly and we talked about the Canada of it all, but particularly in a sport that has supposedly always overcorrected in the whole. We're gentlemanly, we're good, we support, we love, there's something changing and I love it. Yeah. Regardless, let me be very clear. Yeah. I think I do think fans getting frustrated more and more and like it's harder to go to games than it's expensive and I know it's very easy and don't take this as me siding with the guys on team. You start anything. I think it's easy to like villainize the players who want out of their teams, even though and I've been thinking about this a lot, like I go back a couple of years to when Chris jury wanted to get rid of Barclay Goodgero and Jacob Truva who had no movement clauses and it was like you're going on waivers if you don't agree to this trade, like take it or leave it and bullying players out of town who have their no movement clauses and it's like everyone hated that a little while ago and now players are taking control back from general managers who we tend to make the villains and now the players are also the villains. But on the other hand, I think this is great for the game, like this hate is good for the game and this is not hate of like let's promote a bunch of players punching each other in the face and like CTE, we're promoting shit talking and players having opinions and fans getting more involved and I think all of that's fantastic, like it makes for a better game. It's like theater some of these games. I love seeing the fuck you cut her chance from Flyers fans. They should be furious and if you're the ducks, you should be furious at the flyers for getting back at you with Leo Carlson and completely screwing up the cap picture which forced subtractions and I know like not every fan needs to care about the salary cap and I do think that's true. But I think these are two teams that generally like their games don't matter that much. It's a specific division team playing a metro team and I saw something too that's like can the flyers focus their revelry and their angels and it's like why not both why not hate them both why not add a little spark to the games and make things more interesting here right or wrong and like listen, I don't think Quinn Hughes deserves the same reaction as Brady could chuck because I don't blame him for leaving the canucks and it seems like he went about it in a very different way and the players are speaking about it. I know Bessar and Luke Shem both are saying he handled everything right and when you consider the team's direction, you can't blame them. But do I still think that canucks fans should be taunting them saying he's not signing? Absolutely. It's entertaining. Like rivalries are fantastic and they help grow the game in different ways because like nothing unites fans more than hating a singular player or a team or like here's your enemies and it feels like there's a lot of them this year. So be it. And here's my take and I'm going to introduce we talked a little bit about some of the stuff that the SENS put out and then there was also a terrific which first of all, I can't even believe their hockey operations or department let them do this. The LA Kings put out a video where they had their players slicing food thrown at them with knives cut from skate blades. Again, I would never have dreamed any sort of hockey professional organization would allow players to play with knives. Let's think about it. But the fact that they put the video out before they played the devil. Where there's a player who suffered a hand injury at a dinner. Like the hate is coming from the orgs too and here's my take. It's really, really good when this hate to the point of the flyers and the ducks is crossing divisions, particularly crossing conferences because now you have more people who want to watch games they usually wouldn't give a crap about because of the time of day at which they're played. Sarah, your thoughts. Yeah, I agree. I think there's a fine line. There became a point with the hurricanes where I think, for example, it became a little funny. I think when you're responding maybe to fans in a snarky way, that crosses the line. It's still a brand at the end of the day, but then some of them are really fucking funny. Like you said, like, just be funny. I think at the end of the day, and that's why we all resonated. Well, that among many other reasons we resonated with the Senator's fans, they were funny and creative. Like, do that. Don't do like a carbon copy of something just to kind of get in on a trend. Like, don't capitalize on other like individuals' creatives trends, but if you're creating your own thing and it's funny and you can tell it took a little effort or it took a little like, oh, this is crossing the line in a tasteful way, then Bravo. Right. And Vegas was another example of that too, right? They kind of got ahead of themselves on social in their first years because they got too hyped up. But like shame. Oh my god. I remember that. No, but the devils, I feel like our team that they're social is like extremely active. Like, think about it. When they were playing the Rangers, they had the security camera footage of player walk-ins like just to like dish it and it's like, it's indirect ways without like calling out a team being like, hey, you suck, like, I feel like that's a creative way to do it. So for the Kings to do it to the devils, that's funny because at the end of the day, too, like that's an afternoon game on a Saturday. That's two teams that competed in the Stanley Cup. You know, now there's some distance. It was a long time ago. It's 2012. But like, you got to keep things alive somehow and I feel like that's a good way to do it. Like, find whatever entry points that there are and try to exploit them without taking it to like the wrong level. And I'm sure devils fans will be salty over that one just as there were so many fans salty over like that being brought up to Jack Hughes. But if you can't like, like, laugh about it a little bit and try to like, see how teams are finding different ways to like go about it, like, I don't know, like, I feel like you'd like it if it was your own team doing it. Yeah. It's also people started not liking the Kings doing that when they became really, really good. So it's like, if you kind of have nothing else going for you, you can kind of try to stick something at a wall and get a good laugh, you know? 100%. And that's, and that's why I think Ottawa is really hitting the sweet spot because like you said, Shayna, like, first of all, they like Brady handled that and we've talked about this ad nauseam in our opinion, not great at all. And then Ottawa is actually on the cusp of becoming really good, right? So which is part of why the fans are pissed that he left. But like, it's like when Tim Stutzle's chef is chirping Brady Kachuk on social, it is a, it is a great day. It is a girl. I feel like that reminds me to like, the player speaking up is a big part of this too that we haven't seen before. Like, listen to point. The stars and apps have a home at home. What was that two weeks ago now? And that's a rivalry. I feel like it delivered on all parts. But that's grounded in hockey. Exactly. And that's a good thing to have. It's not like we're losing those. Native McKinnon and Rupiah hints are going at it. That has history. Great. But then you have like the rest of it and with everything swirling the way it is and what honestly sports have come in today is like day and age and how you have to find ways to connect fans with different ways like this is a good way to do it. But the player speaking up, I feel like is such an underrated part of all this because we talked about it last week with Connor Hellowbuck. Like, the Jets player speaking up about it of how you can't just ran to the locker room pretend nothing happened or the senators players having, you know, different take some Brady's return and what it means and what it doesn't mean to them. And then you obviously have the flip side with Quinn Hughes and the connects, but it kind of shows a little. bit more too of how like players are actually speaking up when so often you better responses are nothing at all they'd be like let's move on and focus on hockey well this things trickle outside of hockey or this is a part of hockey now like locker room vibes are talked about all the all the time if they're incredible or putrid but it's like because everyone gets along and is in harmony here's locker rooms bending together for different reasons I'd be like that's a good thing too so you lead us right into the next of course big story that everyone is talking about and these two teams are slated soon to see one another and that is that Sarah our national nightmare is over or perhaps just beginning Connor hella buck is now a member of the new Jersey Devils I would have to imagine he's already whether it's intentional or not pissing off Winnipeg fans even more with his whole indifference to the heritage classic I'm not going to talk about Winnipeg just now but there has been so much evidence even especially with the Boston Bruins that when a goalie hold out doesn't go through camp doesn't start a season that their game is affected there's been so much discourse I was writing about it back when Sergei Bobrofski went to Florida about how changing teams is hardest on goal tenders what do you make of this hella buck move on paper it seems to be a grand slam do you think it's gonna work or is it gonna take time well I completely agree with you on your assessment of holding up well everything you said about cold tenders but Connor hella buck has played so many regular season games just to come to the playoffs and get pretty exhausted worn out whatever it is I mean I mean when you look at his playoff history I don't know maybe he just needs to learn how to elevate his game to that caliber play more and it's less about wear and tear right but he's kind of a unique fellow you know what I mean I mean he won the heart he won the dozen of three times I think this is kind of a unique situation at the same time he's 33 years old he's coming off a down season I wonder if coming off the down season is going to make the adjustment easier or harder there's a lot of like random intangibles here I think no matter what it's a great swing for the devils because that's exactly what they need like Alan and their backup were not performing well and it was very clear that that was the issue on the team like I think they're getting good depth scoring right now he uses playing fine and the defense was pretty fine too I really think it was like a aging gold tender and then uncertain gold tender situation so they didn't even have to give up a first rounder for him so yeah hell yeah just try and see what up oh hell yeah the coffee is hitting I think I think your point about Swaman is really good too because it does is like I'm so back and forth on this one of like how will he look when he returns because on the one hand Swaman misses camp he's more in the prime of his career he should have been able to like get up to speed but also he didn't have that same like experience of doing this or even being a starting goalie at the time and then you look at hell about him he's had multiple delayed starts you know the covid year in the pause for the bubble or the next year started late to that I wonder if that helps him but then it's the age like how much more will rust accumulate because he's been off longer and I'm so torn on that because obviously like the devils are playing really well like they're in control in their games that's that should help them and it does feel like his game fits how they play too but I'm like so back and forth I'm so curious to see how it works out and he's like I feel like Connor hell back in so many different ways is like a case study for us to understand like a goalie's workload when it goes into the playoffs and you know how you can have the yips in the playoffs versus being one of the best of the regular season or trying to figure out like all of these different things to make sense of like his career so here's another one for us to like look at and figure out but what the thing with him in the playoffs right who was it you who did it where it was he was losing because their defensive weaknesses were exposed through repeated attack of the same kind when you're facing the same team well it wasn't it wasn't really it wasn't cross-slot passes what was it there was something that went a peg allowed defensively that there was a lot of like odd man rushes it against the blues and then again yeah and then also like this is the thing too everyone forgets his next series was really good like when they played the stars in round two he was excellent but he's team didn't score but my point there is is that that is a systematic issue that was immediately exploited against him and no matter how good he is at surviving droughts of play he's going behind a new system and a goalie being successful is predicated in part because the goalie understands what kind of chances the players in front of him are going to allow him to face and you can be the best goalie in the world but he has to learn new now right so I that's what I'm curious about is this because that was the whole thing with Bob when Bob went to Florida at the time Florida allowed the most cross-slot passes in the league and he had never seen that and so he was terrible and once they tighten that up guess what Bob became Bob again and also he got more familiar with it so here we are but that's what I'm most intrigued about now Shayna you talked about this on the athletic so I'd like you to take us through the perspective from what Winnipeg received there was a really nice moment where Dawson Mercer had a kickass interview with Jackie Redmond during the first intermission of the heritage classic and also was introduced specifically by the PA announcer coming out which I thought was really really cool but some will argue that Dawson Mercer is a nice piece some will argue excuse me to your point Sarah that Alexander command is in fact the first round pick even though it's not the player that Winnipeg gets to pick Shayna everyone said there was no way Winnipeg could really win this trade what do you make of the return okay that that intro for Dawson Mercer was great that's like the one like positive side of this for the jets and for him because I feel like for years we've just heard like how expendable he is to the devils in different ways and how he's always a part of every like projected trade package but that was really nice for him great interview I loved it the one word to describe yourself and he has like a mile long explanation and I was like that's the best I was like you know what she's yeah but like generally speaking I do wonder if the jets could have done better had they worked more proactively and this was before teams started spending all of their assets because they were so much player movement this summer and I feel like maybe they could have targeted different players or different picks at the time had they done this in July versus now when it's tougher to pull off teams have spent other assets and also goalie trades are hard to pull off on a good day they're harder to pull off in season the adjustment factor that you mentioned is massive in season versus having that training camp to get up to speed and then the leverage for the jets everybody knew the situation was gonna come to ahead eventually they didn't want it to interrupt heritage classic weekend which it did but I guess I got settled before that so everything's fine or you know the suspensions coming up how do you navigate it and the longer he didn't play I think the more the jets killed their own leverage I still think Kevin Sheville Dayoff mishandled this like top to bottom I think he should have gotten a better return and it's not to insult the players that are going back Dawson Mercer is not like the reputation I think is now kind of like outpacing what he does in a lineup and maybe he'll pop off and win a pack maybe a new surroundings great for him but he's a center who struggles to play center and drive play on his own he's good riding shotgun to he sure and jack use but like who isn't so I struggle with that a little bit and I hate the idea of like this player was a first-round pick therefore you got your first-round pick like that's the conucks thinking like this is a former first-rounder therefore we can sell that and I get it this is a first-rounder from the last year it is completely different than say four or five years ago but you should have gotten both of you the jets here and I I think there were enough teams in this mix and in this picture that should have been a possibility so I think it's interesting too from like then the flip side of like Sunny Metta's comments of he didn't want to invest invest significant assets in a position that's so volatile and it's like well there's three ways you can look at it one he bluffs because oops he's a professional poker player and was never going to show his hand to he didn't invest significant assets in a position that has less predictability or three he found a goalie with the long enough track record that it's not as unpredictable so he could invest assets but he still didn't but it's a lot to New Jersey based on what they have in like their pipeline but it's not a lot in the grain scheme of things so I think it's a disappointing return for Winnipeg but at least they can like turn the page and move forward maybe I think it kind of deal the above honestly maybe if they've included some of their 14 expected goal models and then did he see Eric Tolsky on the sheets saying he has 15 also that conversation of like what that means of saying well the numbers don't work if you need that many models like no no no no no that's this is not the takeaway here it's that what we have is a baseline the private data is a baseline to teams that they build things in so many different ways so they can look at the game so many different ways they have so much at their fingertips and I'm sure can look at the different results and figure out the best answer right like I don't understand some of the takeaways from that well it's just it's it any any decision in a fluid sport is going to who have to include visual analysis. Football and baseball are different because they are stop start. So you can isolate every single thing. Hockey, we still cannot track. Is there a defender between them? Which way is the player looking? Where is the stick? Because there is no chip in the stick, my friends. And we are not optically tracking which way players are looking. So that's why it's different. And yeah, the takes aren't sane. And I do just want to say it's out there on Twitter. But sunny is brilliant. We are not taking a hit on sunny here, but the person who put out the paper that they claim is the one sunny reference that he wrote. That was actually written by Brian McDonald who is another brilliant mind in the hockey space. And that should be acknowledged. And to your point, Shane, if you haven't listened to Eric Tolsky on the sheet with our good friend Jeff Merrick and Greg Wiesinski, you should, because he explains. It very well, why there are many models. But before we get way too nerdy and Sarah's eyes glaze over and she rolls away from us, Sarah, it is your time to shine because all of this in theory had to happen because Winnipeg was about to play in the spectacle that was the heritage classic. And we're not here to talk the hockey. That's not what we do on too many men when stuff like this happens. We have to talk about the arrival outfits. Now, Winnipeg, for me, the obvious winner with the top gun takes, particularly Stuart Skinner was born for that moment. And I think Jim, no, he's a jet. But for me, Sarah, I guess they were going to be Moulson workers with the habs. But the minute it's obvious to me what you are when you walk in, you've lost what was your take on the arrival outfits and the overall fashion vibe for the heritage classic. - Yeah, it's just funny, 'cause I mean, oil town, oilers, they have, obviously, they should have that hardworking vibe and I'm not saying this team doesn't work hard, but it's funny that it's like the two top skilled players, like dressing up as kind of the blue collar. - Hi, yeah, you could have done better. But I love the jets. Of course, Stuart Skinner, it's like, maybe you don't have Hellebuck, but you have the perfect guy for this exact moment and his mustache right now. So you better use it. - So good. And Shayna, you were on something right from the moment it was announced and it was in the league trying to be what they think is hip or cool. Trying to capitalize on all of the heated rivalry and off-campus vibe by bringing in artists from heated rivalry and the main character, the actor from off-campus and you had some takes, talk us through this in your concerns, your thoughts and how it actually was executed. - It's funny because I was talking to DJ Bean about this the other day when I saw off-campus nights, like four teams, like official nights. And it's good and bad because I feel like teams are under, like off-campus is massive. Fans love it and it did bring a lot of fans into the game. I think that's a good thing. I think that team should capitalize off of that and try to connect with their fans in a different way instead of whatever the fuck hot for hockey was. Like, this is it. Have an off-campus night and I'm pulling it up now. The Kings, the Stars, the Flyers, the Penguins and the Devils are all doing this. - Having off-campus, having a heated rivalry. - Well, official off-campus nights. - Okay. - But not heated rivalry nights. - Yeah, exactly. And it feels like, you know, the show obviously came out first. That's what started, you know, this like new influx of fans. So it feels like you should have been trying to lean into both. And it's funny because the attendance is struggling across the NHL. So you need to be creative and connect with fans different ways. That's why the off-campus stuff is good. But the fact that one show gets all of these direct nods and one show gets indirect nods, I was shocked that they said this is the music from heated rivalry. Finally, some sort of acknowledgement. And some of the comments back and forth I've seen are, you know, they don't, heated rivalry doesn't want the NHL supporter. Jacob Tierney's made it clear. Jacob Tierney's also gone through the last year of the NHL not supporting his show. And I have to wonder how different things would have been maybe if the NHL showed an ounce of interest from the beginning because at the end of the day, if you want to look at it at a very surface level, it's the gay show does not get support and the straight show does. And that leaves like a bigger distaste in my mouth. Like it just, it feels like had things been handled differently maybe. It would have been, and maybe it would have, right? Because as Tierney was on, Andy Cohen's showing talking about it, like the NHL is still doing things the wrong way. And the culture is still completely fucked up. And that is an important part of the equation. Also, I get it, they are critical of the NHL. And that will come out in this next season in the second book. If you're the NHL, I would want to push back on that idea of them even more, right? And just be like, hey, we're not that. That's this is fiction, right? To say it. So it just bugs me. So then you see these artists coming up and Remy Wolf's music and G Flip, that's an off-campus and Fist and Wolf prayed there and heated rivalry. It felt like that was the first acknowledgement of it, but it wasn't until they were actually announced that you even knew that they were going to directly say, hey, key to rivalry exists. We know that. At most, you're seeing some arenas play, all the things she said, that's really it. So I know some teams are doing the jerseys too, but it just feels like from a league standpoint, it's really lacking on one side of the equation. And it feels like they should really be doing what they can. And I get it, they're bigger issues at play. And you're not going to sell all fans when you don't have, I don't know, domestic abuse policies and things like that. And I think that's really important, right? Especially when you look at the hockey Canada players back in the league. But maybe if you tried a little bit to connect with the LGBTQ+ community, things would be different, but it just feels like every step of the way they want. - Well, I think Tyranny, like he brought that up on Andy Cohen, right? Him and Reed are very open about being, Rachel Reed, the writer of heated rivalry, have been very open against the league's policies and Reed is very just like Tyranny, like very vocal in her support for the LGBTQ+ community. And I mean, sexual abuse victims and just very, they're political and open about that. And I think maybe they don't want to fully be associated with the league. And you look at something, I was kind of disappointed in off-campus for kind of just blindly going with that, without making any statements when they have an arc about sexual harassment and sexual assault in their show. So I think it's on one hand, like I totally see where you're coming from. And I totally agree that the league has a lot to do with the disclusion of heated rivalry. And I think maybe that makes it easier for heated rivalry to come out against some of these things. It's like a chicken and egg situation. And I'm just so grateful that Rachel and Jacob do these things, and they're getting so much traction. And on one hand, like off-campus, I understand. It's kind of like, okay, what do you do? Because maybe when people more people watch off-campus after seeing it here, then they get to see these themes of sexual harassment that they don't shy away from on off-campus, so that's a plus too. There's just a lot of different things to consider in this situation, right? - Yeah, and I'm with you, I think Rachel and Jacob have probably become, they always believed and felt the way they felt about these issues, and have become more vocal as this season went on, and the reaction came as it did and did not. But this is what's frustrating to me, and it goes all the way back to the fricking Black Hawk scandal. And of course, before that too. But it's like if an audience that is coming to hockey is frustrated with you as a league, why aren't you saying, gosh, what do we need to do here? Like the lack of self-examination, like we don't want to work with them 'cause they paint us poorly. Okay, well, maybe what should you do so they don't paint you poorly? I don't know, like that's advice I would give an individual, an organization, whatever. And that's what's frustrating is, if that's why the league is shying away from them, that is the misstep. And that's why they're missing the mark with all this other stuff, because it's not genuine, they don't understand it, and they don't do anything to try and understand it. That's my frustration with the whole thing. - No, you have Gary Betman saying, I've binge-teaded rivalry. - Come on. - He has not, please. - Like, come on, and it gets me too, because the NHL was thriving last year, despite not acknowledging it, that they probably thought they were fine, didn't have to do anything, but the fact that attendance is so down this year, and it's down for numerous reasons. And one of the biggest reasons is how expensive it's become between tickets, parking, food, everything else. But gate revenues are such a massive part of things for the NHL, and I get it, they do have a new TV deal and coming in a couple of years, and we're seeing how the cap is projected to rise, so everything all looks bright and sunny for the NHL, and it doesn't matter. But when this is a huge part of things, and the attendance is as low as it is, and it's not just now Vegas, it's across the board, we're seeing it's so many games being pointed out now, you should want to grow your fan base, because marketing to the people who are gonna love your sport no matter what, isn't doing it, trying to do things to bring in new fans does, but you have to be genuine about it, and they're not. 100%, 100%. And you know, hey, just think about inclusion, I mean, you've gotta support your teammates, or James Rimer will not support his teammates, just like he doesn't support diversity, but I digress, here we go. I think it's interesting that Gary Bettman did say he binged it specifically because I can see him binging it being like, oh God, what are they saying about the league? What's the theory that I have to do? But that's just a conspiracy theory of the day. - What assistant had to read the books for him? I need to know. Because to get ahead of it, like you gotta read the long game. - I was gonna say that to you, Shayna. I think it's important you're pointing to what happens next in the books and full disclosure, I also have not read the books. But I bet Gary Bettman just had, like it might have been on an iPad in his office while he was doing something else. I highly doubt he's read the books, right? Like, and that's okay to an extent. Again, I haven't read the books, but I'm also not running a major sports league. But I don't know that they do know what's coming. Do you know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - So. - I can't imagine they don't, I just, I mean, listen. I read the books because I was like, this is big. I should know about it. That's what started it for me. - Just to slightly shame me, that's okay. - No, no, because I read like, I read like every day and I was out of books and I needed something different. But like it was like right time for me. I needed something not depressing to read at night. And this was like big and I'm like, let me see what's going on. Everybody's talking about it. Like I, you race through the show before I even started it. Like you were on the ball with it. But I would think if you run the NHL or you're high up and even if it's not Batman, it's other people in that front office doing the work. Like you should know how the sport is being talked about in all different ways and where the attention is. Like if this is your job to run a league, you should know every element of hockey in all contexts and what evidence do you have that this is happening? None any topic. None. Absolutely none. They came up with hot for hockey. What does that tell us? Look at the marketing in the last 10 years. All right, have we covered this one? That yeah. OK, we have one last bit on news that is very dive. Well, I guess it's somewhat divergent. Not divergent. Excuse me from what we've been doing. But one less hold out to worry about the key to negation does in fact sign a one year. Oh, it's negation. Excuse me. Alex, negation. Thank you. I know. Listen. As we stated, it is very early where I am right now. Alex, negation signs a one year, $3 million extension with the Canes. He was going to have to likely sign with them. There's of course the December 1st deadline. We all remember that from the William Nealander debacle that if you're not signed by then, you can't play a season. Sarah, are subnational nightmares over? What do you make of this one? Yeah, national nightmare is just begun. I guess this guy, I know players support the players, feels like the pickiest guy on earth. What do you mean you're not going to sign with the jets? What do you-- OK, just play another year of-- No, no, no, no. He wasn't going to sign with the jets, which is why they could have tried their fuller hell of ups. Play another year. You haven't played that many years in the NHL. And you've had really rough playoff games. I get that the hype is there. And I understand when the hurricanes are so deep, like players get really like-- They don't want to-- It's like a natious situation. But natious waited his turn for years. And they came to reshady with him for a bit when it came to-- there's the pre-tulski era, I'll mind you. But that's how the case with Nikesh in here, like he's just playing hardball. You better have a good season. That's all I got to say on that. Jaina, anything to add? Yeah, I mean, I get it advocating for yourself. And maybe the Keynes aren't the perfect fit for him. Like maybe the playstyle is not perfect for him. Maybe the depth chart is in perfect for him, because it's going to be a lot harder for him to jump up ahead of guys like Slaven and Miller. They have depth. There's not as much opportunity. And I don't think there's anything wrong with the player advocating to go elsewhere. But I also think our short-term deal is his best way to cash in. With the way we see the cap rising, with the way we see these long-term contracts for young players, to just build up his track record and show how good he is. Like bet on yourself a little bit here. And I get it, there's more uncertainty there. And if you're going to be in a third pair role, it's harder to do it. But you're a cup champ. You have some raw tools that teams will love. They love that throwback style of play. And he's really good at it. It feels like that this one year deals. Actually, the best outcome for him, obviously it is for the Keynes, because they both get a little bit more time to figure things out. But I'm surprised it took this long to come to this conclusion. And I get it's tough, especially when you see the way contracts are being handed out around the league. But that's not happening there. The Stankhoven and Jackson Blake contracts were signed so ahead of time, they're so cost-effective. Well, Jackson Blake's going to make like half of what Ryan Leonard is. And it's not a knock on Ryan Leonard, who's been great so far. But that's just not the way they operate. So it's confusing. It took so long to get to this point. That was 1%. All right. We have some things happening on the women's side of things that are exciting and interesting and also fun. And we hinted at this last week. But the roster for Team Canada was just coming out as we were recording. So we wanted to wait to discuss this in more detail. But Shayna, you look at what Team Canada is doing. And it looks like they are directly to your points earlier about paying attention to knowing what's going on. They are heating the feedback that came to them after the Olympics. And there is significant overhaul in the Team Canada roster. It seems like they're starting to emulate what we feel made Team USA more successful this last round of international competition. And that is bringing in waves of players. So you have young players learning from older players. And you start to build quote-unquote hockey generation after hockey generation that can continue to make a national team strong. I thought it was interesting because some big names are not on the roster anymore. But also, people didn't seem upset about it because they seemed excited that this is what Team Canada is doing. What is your take on what Team Canada is trying to do here? It feels like something so necessary for them to do. And it's funny because when Sarah Philly came on the scene, I felt like Canada was the team that was like, we need to go younger. We need to prepare for the future. Here's the old with the young and watch this blend. And USA was the aging team that wasn't trusting the young players. And then all of a sudden, it completely flipped. So you have to keep up with the best in the world. And the two of them have to just go back and forth. Jocelyn Norrock is the most interesting one to me because she's a staple for Team Canada. But I think we saw how the skating has declined, how her game has declined. So to have her on the roster, I feel like can be such a crutch because coaches love her. And I understand why. And she gets just over leveraged and overtaxed in these games. So not having her on the roster is in a way like the best way to solve that. Because if she's there, I think she'll get leaned on right or wrong. So I think this really does open the door in a very necessary way to kind of like usher in who can take over that those top slots on defense. Going to be interesting to see. And of course, on the Team USA side, they extend their head coach, coach Robo. John Robleski is going to be returning for some time. Sarah, on the PIDUB side, we're starting to get some more details. We had two expansion teams last year who skated their inaugural season in those traditional what the PIDUB does. First year, you skate with your city name across your Jersey. But the Golden Eyes have officially released their jerseys and I feel like they are a win. I particularly like the home one. Tell us your takes. Well, this is for my gay girls. Did you see the Tegan and Sarah in their new music video? We're wearing the Golden Eyes jersey. I did not. Or if it was Tegan or Sarah, I forget what you're saying. I don't know what you're saying. Oh, don't know what you're saying. Well, they wear the song. Not my favorite of theirs. I'll say it sounds like it was generated by AI. But I know, listen to it. And let me know you're talking about my winner. I was like, wait a second. I'm like zooming in. I love these ones. I was waiting for a jersey that I liked. And thank God, you know what? I like Boston. That's grew up here, whatever. But I love my special connection to Vancouver. Love these jerseys. And I think I will be a Golden Eyes fan. It wants to hire me and then I will be a fan of everyone. I will pick the Golden Eyes for now. Sarah, nurse of it all. Let's go. Yes, yes, excellent. We're still waiting on Seattle's. And of course, the four expansion teams this year will skate in, as I mentioned, the traditional city name jersey for their first year. But maybe some branding will come out before that. We'll see. The other news that hit the p-dub that I personally loved is the victor handed out their championship rings to their team. And here's what I love. The rings were sick. They were awesome. Today is today being their slogan, which was just hilarious and wonderful, is engraved in them. But here's the detail I found spectacular. In addition to the very traditional, as it should be big, impressive, flashy championship ring, everybody also gets a smaller daily wear ring that represents the championship. So you can rock it day in and day out without having to wear the big, big, big ring that maybe we don't see as much now. On the men's side, we've seen, you know, like maybe for partners, they get appendent or the top pops off to be appendent or something like that. But I really like this approach to rock your championship publicly more often in a more acceptable day to day way. And Shane, what do you think of that? I love it because I cannot imagine ever wearing the actual championship rings. Like they are so bulky. I feel like that's something you literally take out for like a team banquet or some big event that you know is happening. And if that's your style and taste to wear that on a regular basis, you still can. But to have something a little bit more wearable also, so you don't like risk tarnishing the other ring at all. I feel like it's so important. Like you see it all the time now that like people have like multiple rings for things like I. I've been learning a lot, but like people, why is that what happened? Who knows? Like I have been learning a lot that like people have like multiple rings that they were like ones for travel and ones for like, you know, special occasions. And to me, I'm like, I would just. I just wear the same thing all the time. Like what do I know I'm an idiot, you know, but like I would I would think you want something that has that like wearable factor. So if you can have that even again, even if you choose not to wear it just to have options like maybe one day you have kids and that's the one that you let your kids wear the other ones yours or your partner, whatever it may be, I feel like that is such a cool way to do things. So I absolutely love that. I think earlier in the PWHL, we saw like collections with earrings and necklaces and jewelry like that. I think all that's well and good to have to. But to have a more subtle ring and show like there's multiple ways to have a champion referring like sick. Yeah, big, big fan. Sarah, what do you think of them? Yeah, I just, I mean, I completely agree with all that. I love the creativity that is being cultivated and the like personal touches felt really beautiful to me. So despite having no connection to this at all. So that must mean even more to people who do. I love that. I love that. All right, let's wrap this one up with everyone's favorite game. And that is fuck Mary kill, but my friends. We've toyed with it. We've teased with it. And I think we finally found the right opportunity to make this bigger than just FMK. Sheena and Sarah, are we ready for a round of fuck Mary kill ghost. And could there be a better time to break this out? So you have four options. Yeah, as is tradition, your category is your favorite anti ready could chuck chant. Oh, perfect. Here's, here's what you get to consider. Number one, fuck your podcast. Number two, overrated. Number three, suits list better. And number four, where's your daddy? The floor is yours. I will kill overrated because that chant, today I say is overrated. I will ghost. Oh, ah, let me, let me marry fuck your podcast. Let's get that out of the way. I think that was a personal touch that's got to hurt him a little bit. I will fuck where's your daddy because that was like when you look back at Keith's involvement in this is ridiculous, crazy that that happened and his daddy was like defending him like where is your daddy. Oh, and that's got a heart for like an alpha male and the man of spirit. And so is the podcast comment. So they're just like getting all like the red fill ideology that I love out of the way. Okay, we did Mary killed ghost. No, we don't know. So you ghost by default, you will now ghost, suits list better. Yes. And I like that one, but oh, last, it was process of elimination. I like that they're standing up for their guy. I mean, you're takes. I'm actually going to kill Stutz those better because we listen, we all know it. We see what he's doing on a nightly basis. And I think sometimes we just have to target our hate at the person and, you know, I mean, like I don't don't do it for me. I think that it's partially a process of elimination, partially, it's just like not as creative. I'll ghost overrated because I feel like, again, like Sarah said, it's an overrated chant. But, you know, it does kind of fit here. So it's like, I don't. I'll like see what's up, but I'm not sticking with it. I'm going to fuck where's your daddy. That's hysterical, especially after the podcast of it all with the lean assault mark talk that wasn't lean assault mark talk. I think it's funny when you see Brady catch up struggling on the third line and then he jumps up to play with Matthew and obviously it on locks his game shocker. They have chemistry in it. It was a matter of finding the right situation for him, but like people being like, ah, you know, their father must have called palm trees and asked for it and like it's unrealistic, but it's just it's funny, given the context of everything that's happened in the last year and how front facing everyone is. It's also funny when you think of like how we normally think of hockey dads and like the Paul Marner of it all not to like leave it up, but it's like this is okay, but that isn't and like maybe none of them are okay. Can we move on? I'm going to marry fuck your podcast. I think that is great creativity. I think that's hysterical. There were so many good ones, but to get in the crowd chanting that and like it you could hear it because that many people were on board and saying just great work. Yeah, I see I did like students was better, but I'm with Sarah, I think on these I'm going to agree. And by process of elimination, I stick with her at the same same votes. We're going to do one bonus round, though, because there were so many good ones. So I'm going to read to you, the other contenders we had and you get to pick one favorite. Okay, so here we go. Sarah, you're going to go first. You get to pick just one more favorite. Here were the other chance as reported by those who were in the building for for the game. The others were. They're so good. You can't read. You eat crayons, straighter, Matthew's better. We don't need you little brother. Fuck you. Brady sucks. Brady's balding. You're a sell out. And Matthew's bridesmaid. What's your pick? Matthew bridesmaid. That's a call back that has to hurt. Right. So that that one. I'll pick. I don't you know what not to be the friend that's too woke. Like sometimes the appearance comments. I'm like, leave them alone. So I want to believe you can't read. It's not about his appearance. But I don't believe that. So you think it's about his appearance. Well, because what's you eat crayon? I mean, well, he's not very. Then I'm bad. I feel bad. It's like when people are making fun of Travis Kelsey, but he has dyslexia. I don't know any of pretty good. Maybe I'm thinking about this too much of your two straight cups of black coffee and food yet. You know what? We'll take eat crayons because you just when you get to chant that in a group about someone you hate. Well, it does have creativity points. Shayna, which one's your favorite? Um, see, I like that you can't read because that's something you saw the podcast clip circulating and being like, see, I can read and trying to prove it. But it was like about like a math thing that he screwed up. And to me, it was just like, that's just classic. But I have to say, I, like, we don't need you as a classic. And that's a good one, but little brother that to me, that to me wins. Um, there's so there's so many good ones though, because it really is tough, like the call back to the bridesmaid thing, but like to me, little brother just feels like the most insulting way to do it. It's like they're doing psychological warfare. I mean, just the breadth of options that they did give us again, hats off to you, Ottawa fans, so well done, so so well done. All right, that will do it for us for this episode of too many men so much to discuss so much is happening. And I think we talked about five minutes of actual hockey on the ice. We did it. We thank you all so much for listening. We thank you all so much for those instrument recommendations. Again, if you are inclined, you can always send us a clip of you performing your instrument, just a few seconds, just a little clip, a little announcement blast. Please feel free to submit those into us and how would you do that? Well, you can send them to us via social media. You can find us on Twitter, on YouTube and on Instagram at to underscore much underscore man on blue sky. We are at to hyphen much hyphen man and our merch is at too many men dot print full dot me. And until we talk again, my friends, we ask you to please do something no matter how big or small to make sure that hockey truly is for everyone, we will talk to you soon. Love you. Bye. (upbeat music)