039 - Love Addiction Pt. 2

[Music] Welcome to the Peer Desire Podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to Peerity. [Music] Hey there, I'm your host Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. Today's episode is part two of a two-part series titled Love Addiction. We're joined by Diane Roberts and Ashley Jamison. Enjoy the podcast. What are ways I can identify if I am a love addict? Like how do I figure out if I am struggling with love addiction? Again, I'd say review the evaluation, the love addiction evaluation, because it really. I took the test and because of codependency in my own life I realized, oh my gosh, I have quite a few of these. So I think it really helps you to understand some of the basics of what love addiction is. And that would be a starting point. Yeah, and just as you guys were talking, I'm just thinking of all these different things that I do. But I also took the love addiction evaluation and it was a real eye opener for me. I think I got 100% on it. I think it was a queen of this. You knew somebody that wasn't that great in school, I felt really proud of that. But what I realized is that this is why for me a recovery action plan is so important. Because as like what Nick says, when he may bring gifts to his wife or you Trevor not being able to let Amy be quiet or look unhappy for a few moments, I struggle with all of that. And so it does become this bad dream thing. And there's so much freedom in, you know, saying like, wow, you know, John's low on his faster scale. He's struggling. And for me to do what I can to be a helpful wife, but at the same time realize this is between him and God and his group. And I can't make this feel better. And if I do it could make it worse. And so for me a recovery action plan is really important because if he revapses, I want to fix it with sex and love. And so I want it to just all the way. I want us to be better. And so I need to recognize where I try to run in and and do something so that I feel better or that I feel like he's not as mad at me or I feel like, okay, I can be prettier and better than those other, you know, females he's looking at. And so I need to identify where I'm not just trusting God with the process with my husband, but I'm trying to rush in and fix it myself. And I can really tell when my behaviors are in congruent with my feelings. So if I'm feeling closed off and not like I want to be vulnerable physically or intimate with intimate, intimately with him. But then I do it anyways because I feel like it's going to make him happier or our relationship better than then I knew I'm doing something out of an unhealthy motive. And so that's where I can try to identify those areas and then have a plan and let my and let my husband know that this is not just a punish you, but it's also to make sure that I deal with this in a healthy way. And that I don't see bitterness because I'm trying to rush and fix something. Yeah, and then another practical thing again, I kind of go back to looking at the story of your life and understanding kind of how your narrative has has played out. And if I look back, my my life looked like every six months, I couldn't go more than six months without another relationship. If I had I would have a relationship for anywhere from a year and a half, two to three years, we'd break up and then within six months. And like I have gone back and looked at it and calculated there's not one time in my life. I was six months without a relationship. And if you look back and start to see your tendencies and your habits, it starts to become clearer. Maybe what the motivation is really underneath it. So that's just another practical way is just to look back at really how your life narrative has played out. Well, I was thinking a lot of the women in my groups that struggle with this have no women friends. In other words, their jealous over most women, they want the attention from men. And so being a part of a women's group where you're dealing with these issues is part of the healing process. And I think men often are the same way that they have they'd rather have women friends. So for deep relationship, I mean, you can go fishing with guys and golfing and stuff. But for real real deep relationships, I think that's really something to look at, especially for women. If you have no women friends and you're constantly looking for male friends or male relationships, that's usually an indicator. That's perfect thing because that was kind of like right before what I was going to say the perfect on ramp, the opposite of what I was going to say, but at the same time, just that healthy relationship in all aspects. And with Trevor, your pattern of every six months, so many people look at that and like, that's not an addict. That's, you know, but if it's if it's the wrong motives or if it is your pattern, then, then you can be an addict. And with what Diane said, same way that I meet so many women that are don't have girls and they say I just connect better with guys. And that is not that's not healthy. Me, my love and sex addiction was all or nothing. And so my strategy was to avoid men at all cost. But then anytime I even, you know, stepped into a relationship with the man, which should be, you know, as an adult, you know, I should be able to have healthy interactions with men. It was like I ended up sleeping with every man that I was friends with. And so there was no balance of being able to have healthy boundaries and friendships with both men and women. My strategy was just to avoid men. But then I fell in deep trouble any time I ended up being around a man. And so I could go like a year or two without a relationship or any sexual encounters because I was just avoiding it avoiding all male relationships at any cost. I'm not healthy either. I need to learn how to be around men and women in a healthy way with good boundaries. Well, it seems like in any addiction, we want to look for patterns of manipulation or control. True love is not manipulative. True love is not controlling. And so if I find that in any relationship, whether with my spouse or co-workers or even just people I'm meeting that I'm trying to manipulate people to get a compliment or something that makes me feel good, that's a danger side. I'm trying to control the relationship so I feel safe. So I feel valued so I get someone's pity even because having someone care about me and are you okay? That that can be a form of a relationship sickness where I need people to care about me so that I feel something I feel valued and cared for by others. So I think just looking at our relationships and say, do I do I love people in a way that is freely allowing them to be who they are that is not finding my identity in and through them or am I loving in a way to try to manipulate and control so that I feel something. And that those are real practical. I think danger signs to look for in any relationship. It's really good. Yeah, and I think that's really hard though because you know thinking about our brain, especially our limbic system, which is our survival brain, which is formed by the age of six. Sometimes that hyper vigilance that neediness for relationship is developed so young in life that we're not even aware of it. And really until you get into a group where you start looking at these things, do you become aware of, oh, this is my motivation. It comes from an unhealthy place. I was trying to meet a need that wasn't being met whether it's I have to be on hyper vigilance to make sure I'm okay with everybody or whatever those things are. Sometimes we don't recognize those until we get into a healing group or counseling. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great point in thinking of my own story growing up in a home with three other siblings where we're all very close in age. Had parents who were very, very busy. My mantra early in life, you know, became notice me notice me either because I'm picking on my siblings and getting in trouble, which was a form of getting noticed, right. Or because I'm working really hard to perform and be the good kid or sing in the choir that the things that got me the accolades and the out of boys. And I think that that early childhood pattern of notice me is what leads me into a relationship sickness where I can manipulate or control others to be noticed because that can be what makes me feel like I'm okay that people notice me. And so I think for anyone we can look at those patterns and we may not even have memories of what happened under the age of six. But we can evaluate the situation we grew up and did we grew up in a broken home. Did we grow up with a mom that had to work out of the home and was always leaving us with caregivers. Did we grow up with a very strict and abusive dad or where we left frequently with other family members. How did they treat us and we might not remember any of it. But we can in wisdom and with some fair discernment look back and see what patterns were created that might have caused us to evaluate love or relationships in an unhealthy way. And when we start to see some of those roots again we're not ever trying to blame the past or say it's their fault. We're trying to be aware so we can change the power that those things have over us by inviting Christ redemption and healing into all of our story. So when did you recognize those patterns. Did you yesterday. Just kidding. Six minutes ago. I think it takes a while to see those and sometimes it takes reflection from others. Well, I think I noticed the patterns my first time through group but more in relation to how that could be to me acting out with pornography or in kind of a lust and sexual addiction to really see it more as an emotional issue that led me to all kinds of unhealthy things. probably took a couple of years because there is, it's just so part of our life, as you said. It's part of that limbic system that is just built into us at such a young age that exposing it can take time. And it's a process of hearing others and being willing to go back and really do some hard work there. So it's not a simple or an easy thing. So earlier, Diane, we talked a little bit about where we might see some love addiction scripture in the woman in the well. Are there other places we could look at in scripture that might give us examples either of love addiction or some direction on how to overcome this and how to invite God's help into this area of struggle in our lives? I think one that comes to mind immediately where Jesus says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Sometimes we're loving everybody else so much. We're not really loving ourselves. And I think Ashley spoke to that really well when she said, "When I discovered who God created me to be rather than making others idols." So I think it's hard to do that balance of loving others as you love yourself, but you can't fully love others unless you first love yourself and understand yourself. I think another scripture that comes to mind that shows the need that especially we as women, I've kind of bounced this around a lot in my mind because I've worked with sex addicts and love addicts with women. And I really think the foundation and Ashley, you put it well that you were kind of a combination of both a love addict and a sex addict. And I think I go into the scripture where in Ephesians it says, "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church." And he doesn't say, "Wives love your husbands." He says, "Respect your humbospins." So I think there's a deep need that God created in us to be loved. And so that's a legitimate need, but when we make it an idol, then I think there has to be balance there too. So those are the two scriptures that come to mind. Yeah, I love that you started with love your neighbor as yourself because Jesus also started that with love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And when I think of where this applies scripturely or what we can take out a God's word in terms of love addiction, very often we're trying to fill a place in our lives with another person that is intended to be fulfilled only by Christ himself. I remember Ted saying to me in an early counseling session to say, "We're all meant to be addicted to Jesus." And I think that's so true in love addiction that we are meant to have a space in our lives that is only filled through a relationship, but that relationship is intended to be God himself. Only he is great enough, pure enough, right enough, loving enough to have that place in our lives. And if we don't give it to God, if we don't give it to Christ, we're going to look for it in someone else. And so the healing point is to start and say, "I want all of my energies, I want all of my passions to go back to Christ first." And then from there, he can direct me to what a healthy relationship looks like. And I don't know if we can do that without examining, again, getting back to the motivation, what's driving this, what's getting in between myself and my relationship with God. So I think it's both, you have to do the examination of your story where you've come from, why you do the things you do, why you get stuck in Romans 7, where you're doing what you don't want to do. And then as you start processing that, it takes away the blockage and no longer do these other things become idols, Christ becomes the focus. Yeah. So let's kind of push into that even a little bit more, even just practically. So if someone is listening and they're coming to the conclusion that maybe love addiction is something they struggle with, what does it look like to break free from that? What can they do? What can they be a part of? What materials? What resources? What can they do if they want to get free from love addiction? Well, I know that for me, I think the first step is becoming aware, breaking denial. So taking those evaluations like Diane suggested would be a great starting point. I know for me because I wasn't modeled intimate relationships or affection or deep conversation, feelings were shamed in our household. If we had feelings, then we were clinically depressed and needed to go on medication. We weren't allowed to have feelings. And so for me, I always would say to John, I'm pretty woman, don't kiss me, don't talk to me, but we can do it. So that was kind of how I saw relationships where I would rather be sexually active with somebody than to have a sit down conversation about how I'm feeling or am I upset about something? I did not know how to identify my feelings and voice them in a healthy way. And so often I would just try to assume what the other person needed and I would overplay behaviors. I'll just be the best wife, the best looking, the best sexual partner. I would guess what they wanted. And so for me, it got down to learning how to open up and really talk about my feelings and my needs and develop intimate relationships with friends and females. And that happened in group. The more I was able to talk, I think that just the healthier I became all around because I wasn't afraid to have those hard conversations with John anymore. People used to ask me, how does that make you feel like my sister? And I would just cringe and shut down. I hated that. Don't talk about my feelings. I'll do anything else, but let's not talk about feelings. And so group kind of helps filter all that out. And light bulbs start going off. I never even realized that until I shared it right now. You Trevor earlier in the episode, I just realized as you guys were talking and I do that with Amy, I think group is such a healthy place to start making those connections. I totally agree. And I think, again, going to the evaluation. And if you score over three, I think Ashley, you're the queen of love addiction. But if you score over three, then you need to start looking and seeing, are there some issues here? And then as I mentioned before, for women, especially, it's really hard for them to be with other women. So joining a group is a great first start to breaking the power of isolation. And then using the materials, our eight pillars materials is really good because it helps you process your codependency. It helps you figure out what your woundedness is and where it came from. We have the arousal template that helps you to see, oh, yes, all these patterns in my life, my woundedness, my behavior, my beliefs all show me that this is part of my love addiction and this is why I do or have done what I've done. And I think also just realizing that the group can bring real health to you. And it gives you a new sense of, you know, what are the lies that I need to stand against? Who am I really in Christ? And what's interesting, too, the behind the mask, which was written more for high school college age, I've had 30, 40-year-old women's go back through that because they realize, oh, my gosh, my love addiction, my sexual addiction started in my teens. And so it really helps them to kind of process their teen years. So we've got resources, we've got groups, those are great ways to come to a healthy place. Well, I think one of our tools that would be helpful here is something we call the personal promises or prophetic promises. Because what's happening in a love or relationship addiction is we're listening to a lie about where our value comes from. And so we have to replace that lie with truth. And that truth can't just be reading God's word. I mean, that's valuable, but it has to be internalizing personally experiencing God's word. And that comes through the experiences we've had with God where he has shown us his love or his presence or his friendship. And so for someone to sit and think through, where have I relationally experienced God? What truth did he communicate to me? And then, you know, writing that out on like a three by five card and making that part of your daily thinking so that when you're tempted to think, I'm only valuable if someone else notices me or I only have worth if I'm in a relationship, we can go to that card. Remember the experience we've had with God and of his love and say, Lord, it's, it's you who make me complete. It's your relationship that makes me valuable. It's your love that gives me purpose. And over time, as the truth overcomes that lie, we can begin to live out the truth rather than be driven by the lie. Exactly. You know, another thing to really consider though, if you're thinking through this and you're wondering, you know, I know that maybe sex or a porn addiction is in my life, but I'm not sure how to figure out if love addiction is really there or pressing into it, pursuing counseling is another real practical thing. I mean, definitely having someone really that's there to help guide you through your own story, your own narrative to really be able to look at your life and be able to evaluate what's going on. It's such a really, really practical thing and it's something we talk about a lot on this podcast because counseling is going to be beneficial to you regardless of what's going on in your life, but it could really help in this area. I just really like what you said, Nick, about the cards and I did that. The trail and beyond walks women through that, identifying those promises and that counteract the lies. And I had a card in my purse. And so if, whenever I was feeling anything, because I, like I said, when I started this process, I couldn't even identify my feelings ever. I just thought I was totally cool and calm and collective, but when I would start If I felt a change in my body, then I would stop and go, "Why am I feeling this way?" So any change. And if it was, "I'm afraid of being abandoned, "I don't feel good enough, I don't have education, "I would draw on that verse that talks about, "they were ordinary uneducated men, "they just, they were with Jesus, "and that's what made people attracted to them." And so I had a verse for each lie that would come up, but I would have to even stop to realize that I was believing a lie by being aware of my physical body change. So if I got hot or my heart started racing or I got a feeling in my stomach, that's when I would recognize there must be something going on. What am I thinking? What's the lie attached to that? And then what's my scripture that combats that lie? And I had a little card just like you talked about. It was completely life-changing for me. I think that brings up the fact that we're in a battle. It's not just our past, which has wounded us, but the enemy is going to take those wounds and try to use them against us. So that's why it's so important to walk through the healing, have those prophetic promises. You know, I always think of Jesus in Luke chapter three, where when he was baptized, the heavens opened up, a dove came down. Jesus had a real experience. He heard God say, "This is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased." And then in chapter four in Luke, he's thrown into the desert and temptation. And the first thing the enemy says is, "If you are the Son of God." Now, if Jesus needs a prophetic promise with visuals and sometimes, you know, then to go into battle, we're going to have to have that too. And I think sometimes we don't take the time to just picture, "Jesus, where were you when I was wounded?" Or, "Who do you say I am?" And just take the time to meditate on scriptures that he's given us and ask for those pictures, ask for that, you know, where are you in this situation? What are you saying about me or to me so that you begin to hold on to those experiences? Because your limbic system is not changed by words, not changed necessarily by preaching, but is changed by new experiences. And I think that's why Jesus used the parable so much. He was trying to help the people of that time to really picture and experience pictures to see things. So Jesus wants to give us those pictures and it's just a matter of sometimes in a group situation. Sometimes you can just begin to feel that or picture that and that changes you or just in times of meditation that can change you. Yeah, that's so good. Well, Diane, Ashley, this has been great. I feel like I've learned so much today. And so we want to wrap up as we always do by asking what is some final encouragement that you would like to give to our listeners today? I think for me, sometimes it's hard to look and see, "Oh my gosh, I have this issue in my life." But once I choose to look at it, I can realize, wait a minute, that's where God wants to do his next miracle. So I just encourage you not to be afraid to look at these things, but to realize that God who is greater than what we can even think or dream can create a new miracle in us as we choose to face our fears and deal with some of these issues. Yeah, and I would kind of agree with that, that if you do take the evaluation and score three or higher that it's not shameful, we were designed for relationships. It's just, I think it's really important to identify where you're vulnerable to lack trust in God and put it in somebody else, because if you can identify those areas and then place it where it belongs, which is a dependency on Christ, you're going to be so much more fulfilled and you're going to be able to love better because it's not through this worked, an exasperating effort to try to get somebody to love you back when that's really not their job. I know that the more boundaries and the more I can realize where I feel the most vulnerable. So if I feel like somebody's going to take advantage of me or trample all over me, a lot of times it has to do with like, you know, my extended family coming to stay at my house, then I become this weird person and I start lying and making excuses because I'm trying to get something without being honest. But when I can say, you know, I really can only handle about one day and then during that one day, I can love so well. And so just being able to really dig and identify where you have these vulnerabilities, I think is going to make you even a better lover of people and have a stronger identity in Christ. And I think that'd be my final encouragement that as someone listens to this, they might find themselves feeling like, "Man, I am so messed up. Like I have problems. I didn't even know about it." Now they realize that they've got love addiction issues and that can be a discouraging thing or we can allow it to be a hopeful thing because we can recognize, here's an area of my life that I didn't even recognize was unhealthy because I thought love was just love and relationships were what everybody wanted. But when I see the ways I've twisted or manipulated or used relationships for my own good, that puts me in a healthy place of dependence where I can ask for God to show me what does love look like on his terms? What does a relationship look like that he wants me to have? And it can take us to whole new levels of growth and learning and like you said, Ashley, we can have better relationships, maybe than we ever expected because we're willing to look at what's unhealthy. So if anyone's listening, feeling discouraged, I'd just say, "Don't lose heart." God knows all these things. He's with you in this and he wants to use it for good and for health. And so lean into that, look for the opportunities to grow and I think you'll be really glad you did. - Yeah, this was awesome. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. I'm really glad that you guys were able to sit down and talk about it. And really, this is an area I've identified in my life that's been struggle. And so even just sitting here talking about it now was really beneficial for me. And so I just appreciate you guys and your vulnerability and expertise really when it comes to this topic. And I think that this topic in general is one that's easy to misunderstand and not properly identify. So if a listener out there wants more information, you should check out the tools that will have listed in the show notes and really never hesitate to reach out. I think it's really important to always press in and try to figure things out rather than just riding away with life and hoping things come together. So Diane, Ashley, thank you so much for hanging out and talking about this today. - Thank you. Been great to be here. - Thanks for having us. - And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org. And you can follow us on social media, @PureDesirePDMI. Once again, that's @PureDesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. - Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. Check in each week for new content on the podcast. And we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity. (upbeat music)