038 - Love Addiction Pt. 1

[Music] Welcome to the Peer Desire Podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to Peerity. [Music] Today's episode is part one of a two-part series titled Love Addiction. Enjoy the podcast. [Music] Hey there, I'm your host Trevor Windsor and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co-host Nick Stumbo. Happy Friday and it's technically right now it's not Friday. It's Friday somewhere. That's not actually true either, is it? All of our weekend warriors just chanted with you. Today we are joined by a couple of our favorite people Ashley Jameson and Diane Roberts. Welcome guys. Thanks, good to be with you. Thanks for having me back again. Yes. We'll never stop having you on Ashley. Don't be nervous of that. We will always welcome you on the Peerity Podcast. Okay, so we have Ashley and Diane with us to talk about Love Addiction. So this is something we talk a lot about at Peer Desire, but oftentimes it could be something we really misunderstand and are not able to identify in our lives. So we hope that our conversation today really is able to clear it up. What it is, who struggles with it and what it looks like to address it in our lives. So guys, let's just start with this question first. How do we define and what is Love Addiction? Well, again, I'm going to be giving a perspective more for women, but I think this will come up later that we do see this happening in men and probably a better definition of Love Addiction is relational addiction. And rather than sexual addiction where the pursuit is for sex, the pursuit here is for relationship. And it's a desperate attempt to satisfy a deep need to belonging. It's kind of an attachment issue. It's a pursuit and focus on relationships that become a way of avoiding, mitigating our pain. And it can sometimes be pursued at all cost where many Christians who get stuck in Love Addiction or Relational Addictions will violate their Christian values and find themselves in affairs or one night stands just to medicate that need to feel something that avoid relationships. That's good. You know, I follow a question to that and hopefully I'm not jumping ahead in what we're covering later. I don't think I am, but I wonder if for some listeners that are hearing this and even seeing the title Love Addiction, then they hear you say relationship addiction that some people may be reacting with that idea of, well, aren't we supposed to love people? Aren't we supposed to have relationships like isn't, isn't that part of normal life? So how could love or relationship possibly be an addiction? So could you speak to that just a little bit between where, where is that line between, yes, love is a part of our lives relationship is a part of our lives, but where does that become unhealthy? Because I'm guessing for some people listening, they've never thought of love or relationship as being unhealthy potentially. Yeah. So for me, you know, with love addiction being what I was struggling with, which I wouldn't have seen it that way, just because I tend to think of love addicts as somebody who, you know, goes from one relationship to the other, which is also true, or can never not have a relationship or starts one before the one they have is over. Those are all true as well and can be a love addiction, but with me, it didn't look like that. There was many years where I would not have a relationship and, but at the same time, I was desperate for one, almost all of my behaviors were, were geared towards getting one. My thought life was constant fantasy of what it would be like when I had a relationship. It was, oh, this part of my life would be so much better if I had a relationship. And so it was just a obsessive thought life, even though it didn't, you know, play out in, in an actual relationship. And because it was so desperate for love, when I finally had a relationship with my husband, John, he became my idol. I was just obsessed with him and that developed new behaviors like, you know, smothering him and control and, and never being able to say no, because I was so afraid of losing the relationship I fantasized about for so long. And my identity wasn't through God. It was really everything went through the filter of how my husband sees me and am I being the perfect wife and, and is he withdrawing and, and what am I feeling in our relationship right now maybe he's pulling back and, and so it's just this obsession. I don't even know if I answered your question. Oh, that was great. And what was the original question? I was wrong with a relational addiction or a relationship. We're all supposed to have relationships. We're all supposed to have love. Right. Okay. Right. Right. So, so God had to rip that away from me through John's B trail. He had to rip that away and show me for once that my identity was not through relationship and not through a man. And I couldn't run away from it because I was in a marriage. So it wasn't like my normal relationships where I just find a new boyfriend. I had to really be faced with my addiction and how I was idolizing my husband and seeing myself through him. And I had to really find myself in Christ separate from my husband. And that was a long process. And that's where healing comes. And I know in the groups that I've led especially with single gals where they have to have a relationship going and they won't let go of one that's unhealthy until they have another one because they can't be without a man. So, and I think the best example in scripture is the woman at the well. And Jesus really faced her with without shaming her. He just faced her with the fact that you've had five husbands and the man you're now with is not your husband. He was dealing with the idol of having to have this relationship. And I love just what you said you came to the understanding that you needed that living water just as this woman at the well because she was going from a relationship after relationship. And really, hungry for something and Jesus knew exactly what she was hungry for and that was him. So, it sounds like if I hear you ladies correct in a understanding that in some ways a love or relationship addiction can have a lot to do with codependency. The idea that where I am and where you begin are muddled and that I find my sense of value or well being in you or in someone else outside of who God made me to be and who God is in my life. So, is that a big part of love and relationship addiction is that codependent behavior of defining myself through a relationship with someone else? I think that plays a huge role in why I married an addict twice because once I established relationship even though both my husbands were addicts, it was just I didn't want to lose that relationship at any cost. So, I would do anything to try to repair or fix it. And so that brought out codependent behaviors, rescuing behaviors, keeping him keeping him from feeling his own consequences. I would just do anything to keep that relationship and I think that even ignoring red flags and signs of addicted behaviors in the dating part of the relationship is what planted me in marriage with addicts both times. It's so interesting too because if you look at the culture of the church, it's almost as if you've reached the second tier of Christianity when you get married. I mean, if you read scripture, Paul makes it clear that it's sometimes it's almost better to not be married and to not have that kind of relationship, be able to minister and do more for the kingdom. And that's not to say that you can't do just as much for the kingdom when you're married, but in the church there becomes this culture where if if I get up and I'm in my mid 20s, late 20s, getting into my mid 30s and I'm not married yet, usually the church thinks maybe there's something wrong or there's sin in your life or there's an issue. And the reality is is that kind of culture almost creates and fosters a love addiction or a skewed perspective on relationships that can lead to a love addiction. It's just so fascinating that in our own attempts to move away from idolatry, we can create cultures that foster even more idolatry when it comes to relationships. Yeah, well, it's the old idea that I'm only complete if I'm with someone else. And culture fosters that too. I mean, it's the whole Jerry McGuire. You complete me, which is a great movie. That's a great line. It's a nice line, but it's actually very codependent to say I'm not complete without someone else in my life. And I think culturally, we see that being perpetuated and it's just a danger because of what it can suck us into and create unhealthy dependence on people, which does can end up twisting relationships in unhealthy ways. So I've, you know, I've really been looking forward to this episode because I feel like as I've gone through my own journey and been in many, many seven pillage groups and worked a lot of men, you know, we focus almost exclusively on the sexual addiction side and the compulsive behavior and pornography addiction and and all of that's kind of the world that I've lived in and maybe from any of our listeners. So let's keep going a little deeper into helping people understand the uniqueness or distinctions of love or relationship addiction as you say Diane. What would be some other ways that you would say? especially for those that maybe like me really haven't thought through love addiction much at all. How would you help them understand the differences between a love addiction and that of sex or porn addiction? I think a great way and we have a tool on our Pure Desire website is to contrast the love addiction evaluation with the SAS test or the sexual addiction test that we give. And if you look at all the questions on the love addiction evaluation almost every question there's something like 30 of them I think almost every question or statement has the word relationship in it. When you look at the sexual addiction test none of them have the statement relationship. It's more of a pursuit of sexual desire sexual needs being met and it can have a romantic element as a sex addict but most of the time it's just conquer its power it's and even in women when I've had women who have had love addiction and sexual addiction in my groups and usually I have both the women who are sexually addicted they want power over men they've been so hurt so wounded they want control whereas the love addict has a lot of codependent pieces to it and as you read through the love addiction evaluation you'll find such statements as I can only be happy if I have a person a man in my life it's difficult to say no I get involved in romantic inappropriate relationships with married men who are not available or my bosses I take responsibility for other people's issues and so you see a lot of codependent relational issues and I really challenge the audience to take those two tests and see where they land and we've had in our counseling of couples probably a third of the men I will have them take the love addiction test because it isn't just a woman's problem I think it goes back to family of origin issues where there's been everyone wants a sense of belonging and if that was neglected I think that becomes part of the pursuit so I think I think there's windedness from the past there's attachment issues and those things all feed either a sexual addiction or a love addiction well it sounds like it's motivation I mean it sounds like what what's at the core of it you know and that's something that we'll get into a little later in the episode but the the idea of always being having the need to being loved accepted affirmed that so the motivation for which you are pursuing porn or sex or relationship that sounds like it's the indicator as to what really is going on underneath the surface yeah and I know for me I had both a love and a sex addiction but they they looked completely different because my sex addiction which was primarily masturbation with no like horn or anything started at such a young young age I mean five years old and and that was clearly just to medicate the loneliness and pain I felt from the lack of love that I had in my life but then going into teenage years I was extremely sex sexually active you know and put myself in all kinds of dangerous situations and and would really do anything but none of that was for sex it was all for trying to feel desired and loved and hoping and wishing that eventually one of those sexual relationships would turn into a romantic relationship and so on the surface I could have looked like a sex addict but I really was just longing for love and it had nothing to do really with this sex at all yeah so let's keep moving into this so I mean I kind of talked about a little bit the culture of the church and how maybe that can cause a love addiction or cater to that but what are some other pieces of life whether other dynamics other things that go on in life that might cater or push someone more towards a love addiction I think actually it's probably true of both sexual addiction and love addiction sometimes if there's been sexual abuse especially women they don't know how to respond to a man accept through sex even though their deep need is love and so I think any wounding of the past any trauma of the past can really create legitimate needs but because we're fallen creatures we seek out those needs in illegitimate ways and I think you brought up a good point Trevor that the church sometimes can you know I'm supposed to be loving I'm supposed to care for people can almost turn us into co-dependence if we have no sense as Ashley said a sense of knowing who I am you know I loved what you said Ashley that you had to step back and say wait a minute who am I who has Christ created me to be I can't make my husband an idol so I think it's really important to look at those things to figure out you know the origins of them and what's motivating this behavior what's the pain that I'm medicating yeah yeah and just to add to what Diane said I think that a lot of times if people grow up in a home where vulnerability and intimacy and deep conversation that that kind of intimacy that comes from things other than you know sexual intimacy if those things aren't modeled then we can kind of see a relationship in these compartments like if I'm having sex with my husband that means you know that's that's relational intimacy that's how I see intimacy and we don't see it kind of woven throughout the day and in all relationships we tend to categorize what love looks like and a lot of women not only myself but tons of women that I've worked with in groups if they're not having sex with their husband and they don't see themselves as intimate and closer to their husband it's just that's how they measure their relationship is based on their sex life and so it can be really hard for for somebody if that's how they see what relational intimacy looks like then if they're not having that part of their relationship needs met then they can tend to rush in even though there could be a lot of emotional brokenness that needs to be repaired in their relationship and so I just think having that modeled in your household along with who you are in Christ and and having that that constantly be talked about growing up would put you on better footing to not fall into that trap of pursuing love through sex. Well I like what you said Diane that we find how this meets a need in our life and that might help someone process this because just like with pornography addiction where we have people saying well I don't know that I've addiction to pornography I don't think it's meeting any emotional need I'm just I'm drawn to these pictures or to a certain kind of woman or it feels good and what we try to help people see is it may have started that way that early in our life when we're coming of age and there's all the hormones and desires it may have just started as a fascination with pictures or videos or whatever you kind of got hooked on but if it became something that was unhealthy and was enmeshed in your thinking and you weren't able to let go of it's because it was meeting a deeper need and it wasn't just about the pictures or the images and so the same thing I'm hearing in a relationship or a love addiction someone might be saying well I just like relationships right just like having a boyfriend or a girlfriend I like how that makes me feel and I think that is a normal human desire but if we realize over time it's become a way that we find value that we feel like life is good that we're worth something then we've taken what maybe started it just a normal human desire and it's become part of our addictive thinking so we always want to help people look under the surface so to speak I think that's something that that appeared as I really do really well is not just focus on the behavior but try to look deeper and say what's what's made this behavior become so entrenched in our life and made it so difficult for us to change and when we look at those emotional needs when we look at what is it what purpose is it serving in our life then I think we start to get some of the tools to actually make changes well another thing to with that is that you got to think about just your life story and your narrative what was available to you at the time of difficulty or trauma or anything that went wrong in your life and you know just my personally in my life pornography wasn't available in my home I mean it wasn't something that I saw at home for the first time and but what I did find was that the way I related to women was something that was available going to school being around them and so I think to some degree as well it's just the narrative of your story and how you know you get exposed to relationship or pornography may also be an indicator of really what your addiction looks like moving forward. I think also the lies you believe as you've been growing up in other words if I feel worthless and especially in men I see love addiction where if I can get a woman to really like me then that will deal with my worthlessness and the same for same for women you'll never mount to anything well I'll show them. I'm going to have a man and I'm going to. So I think you have to examine what are the lies that the enemy is feeding you or that you assumed are true in your growing up years that are driving some of this because you're trying to get rid of that pain of the lie but sometimes again our activity or behavior and trying to counteract that becomes really unhealthy. What Diane and Trevor were saying brings up a really good point of how hidden a love addiction could look because just as you both were talking I just think of numerous women that I've spoken with and I've even struggled with this in my past where you could be only ever had a relationship with your husband. One marriage, one sexual partner but you could be still feeling lonely in your marriage or worthless or not desired and then through work if your boss or your coworker gives you a compliment or you work next to somebody in church and they really praise you for the work you do or anything like that. That could become an addiction and your attention and your emotions are going to be taken off of your spouse and put on to that other person because then your filter is going to be what else can I do to get that feeling again that felt really good to have that praise. And I think that's a common issue too where women or men in that category would not even consider themselves an addict of any kind and not realize that they're driven by those comments from people that are not their spouse or not not God. Somebody else is giving them their worth. It's a deep vulnerability not necessarily even from their spouse but from their upbringing. What we find is there's a projection when we minister to couples that sometimes yes there can be better communication between the couples but oftentimes the need is so deep and the vulnerability is so deep saying the wife or the husband either one. They're vulnerable to people showing them attention, giving affirmation and it's putting a huge burden on their spouse when it's really something from their past and he kind of becomes a lightning rod for meeting all maybe her needs or his needs. So I think looking at our vulnerabilities and asking the question why is that a vulnerability in my life? Well you talked about the lies that we listen to Diane and I think one of the lies in this area can be that this is only a woman's problem. And when we look at the other side of the equation for those who struggle with pornography or sexual addiction it's easy to think of that as only a man's problem but we know that's not true that actually pornography use is growing among women even faster than men right now. So on the love addiction side it's easy to assume this is a women's problem but is that true? Are there men that struggle with love addiction? We found that in our counseling and I think I mentioned probably a third of our counseling is the men I do give a love addiction test because I say you know this sounds more relational. You're not so much after the sex you want that affirmation you want that woman's attention. So absolutely I think it can be both women and men that are vulnerable to this. And I feel like with with mine and John's just walk through the recovery of his sexual addictions when he started realizing how he had some really strong, codependent, rescuing type behaviors. That's when our recovery I think turned a corner where he would realize that he hurt me and so we'd work through whatever our plan was to get through that but then he would be so obsessed with trying to make me feel better. And there was a point where he just said, I am so sorry I hurt you and I also got stuck in that trap of like manipulation and loving the groveling and him you know being in that repentant mode. Like I realized I became stuck in that and loved that part of you know relapse. And so I there is a day where he just said, you know what I can't make you feel better. I can't do this for you. You have your plan and I have mine and I'm so sorry I hurt you. But I'm doing the things I need to do to regain your trust and I just can't do anything more and I'm thinking like where are my presence and where's my letter that he always writes me and where's this and that. You know and it was like but it was such a healthy turn because it made me face my own reality that I was looking for these little gifts and rewards to feel better and he was doing those things and when he did that it made us both just recognize we we do hurt each other but we're also responsible for how we respond to that and doing the healthy things to move forward. And so that was such a good turning point for me when he recognized that and it really did come down to codependency in him. Which is exactly what I've you know I've come to this conclusion really in the last few weeks that that's the core for me is a love addiction. It wasn't a sex addiction. It was love that was really motivating it and it's funny as you're describing your interactions with John like I think about things that I've done and for me one of the things I consistently do is I always have the desire or the need to make sure I'm good with my wife like even if we're having a great season in our marriage nothing really is is going wrong we're communicating well if she's quiet for more than five minutes I feel like I have to step in and say hey are we okay like did I do something or you upset what are you thinking about and really what I end up doing is I'm badgering my wife trying to pull something out that isn't there there isn't a problem there isn't an issue but I guess what I'm seeing now even just through this conversation I'm learning that that's just a manifestation of the love addiction that I struggle with because I really always need to be okay with her because I in a lot of ways wrap up my identity in the fact that I'm married but even more so the type of husband I am and how I treat and care for my wife. Well and I think what you're identifying their Trevor is that you're doing a lot of those things with or for your wife so that you feel better right and back to what you said actually about John bringing you gifts or flowers or you know letters of apology. Good things. Yeah that we don't want people thinking they shouldn't do that but it's to look at the motive because I know that that happens in my life too that I'm maybe doing something for my wife bringing her a gift and if I'm honest it's tried to try to help her work through her anger so I feel better and it's like that's a very self-serving gift that's wrapped up in me and in my contentment and my joy versus actually is the motive that I care about her emotions and I want I want her to feel cared for and love and so I think that may be an area to look at in relationships is what's my motive is it actually about trying to manipulate them to be happy so I feel better or is it truly to care about what I've done and be repentant in a way that shows I care and that I value the relationship. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information check out our website puredesire.org and you can follow us on social media @peareddesire.com. Once again that's @peareddesire.com. We'll see you next time. For more information check out our website www.peareddesire.org. Check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.