031 - From Bored to Bold: Getting Clear on What You’re About, Who You’re For, and Finding the Clients Who Want the Same

We're listening to more than photos, the podcast for photographers and filmmakers who care about their art and the life that allows them to build. We're Brad and Jen, and after 15 years in the wedding industry, we've learned that success isn't just about talent. It's about how you run the business, nurture your creativity, and live your life each day outside the business too. Every week we break down the truth about pricing, mindset, creativity, and growth, and make sense of what everyone else overcomplicates, so you can run a business with confidence, serve with intention, and create work that moves people. Let's dive in. Today, we're talking with New York-based photographer Tracy Jade, someone who has built her entire business around a philosophy. I would argue that most photographers feel in their bones, but don't quite have the courage to say out loud. She uses her words to filter, to attract, and to deeply align with the couples who are right for her. We're digging into where that conviction came from, how she lives it, and why clarity and your photography or filmmaking philosophy might be the most freeing thing you do in your business. We are so excited to have you here, Tracy. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. That's a very kind intro. It's fun to be here. Well, I have a hunch that we're going to be needing all the time we have to dance into a lot of the subjects around this convo today. I want to jump right in, but before we get to some of our questions, I'd love for you to share for those who might not know who you are or just getting introduced to your work. Can you share a little bit about your perspective and philosophy around wedding photography? Yeah, so I feel like the philosophy is just more or less rooted in my own really selfish curiosity about people and really just most interested in what people do when they're not performing. I feel like as a photographer, we all get that charge, and I think we all kind of get it from a different place and some people kind of get that charge from having this really clear vision and being able to execute what that vision is and really having the language and the skills to sort of curate something to be really great. I get my charge from, I see somebody experiencing something real and I just happen to be there and I happen to be in the right spot and that's, I just have learned that's where my charge comes from. I'm so much more interested in that than what I could sort of specifically curate. And I'm almost sort of jealous of those skills of people who have that ability because it's just not my will house at all. So I think over time when you get clarity on those kinds of things, you just, you lean right into it and you lean into it as far as you possibly can. And then you just find your people and then everything clicks and then you really start getting rewards. Talk to us about where that philosophy came from for you or more importantly, when did it begin? Was it something that you always knew in your gut, your heart or do you feel like it evolved over time through mistakes or frustrations or, you know, just those natural points along the way? Yeah, I think it probably evolved over time. I went to school for journalism. I didn't even, I don't know, when you're just a teenager and you have no idea whatsoever or what you want to do in the world, I just felt this sort of pull toward stories, toward storytelling. I didn't even particularly feel a strong connection with writing, per se. I just, I think I was just intrigued by the ethos of journalism of kind of going into different worlds and situations and really seeing it for what it was and, you know, trying to make sense of what it was and present in a way that I don't know, mean something to yourself and to other people. So I got that degree, got out of school, did absolutely nothing with journalism. But I think, I think that interest in, in stories or storytelling, just always sort of lingered and photography was nowhere on the radar at the time, you know, and I didn't study photography, I didn't even use the camera, it just, I think it just kind of simmered for a while while I sorted stuff out and then my husband got me just to, you know, a cheapy DSLR camera. It was like a Sony, I don't even remember the model and I just used that thing every day and I never put it down and I was, you know, taking pictures of leaves in the yard and and raindrops on flowers and just, you know, all the stupid stuff that you take pictures of when, when you don't know what else to take pictures of, you're just learning a camera. And then I found this photographer called Sarah Robertson who, I'm not sure that she has much of a presence now, but she was this, like, really beautiful documentary photographer who would go into people's homes and just document a day in the life of families. You know, it was in her work, there was so much chaos, there was, you know, messes all over the house and so much movement as the kids were just sort of like, I'm sure you're familiar with that movement and that chaos and really just embracing that and showing that as something that has value and I saw her work and I just thought, boy, this is it. You know, you just feel that charge, which I think we all, we all kind of feel that initially when we're getting into this work is something that's like, yeah, that's, I want to do that. So that's kind of what it was for me, but I, that just still didn't really answer anything for me. I just knew this is really cool. I want to do this work, where can I find more of this work? And then I tried it myself, you know, you could try to go into people's homes and encourage them to embrace the chaos and those people at the time were few and far between or I didn't have the clarity I needed to define those people or articulate, you know, why that would even have value. And then I just kind of stumbled into weddings as I think we all do. I think I did one one year and then that kind of multiplied into maybe a few the next year and, you know, that kind of increases over time. But even when I started weddings, I still had no idea what I wanted to do with them. I didn't know what I was looking for in them. I think, you know, it was just kind of going through the standard formula. This is what you photograph at weddings and this is how you do it. And this is the camera you use and, you know, you have to have dual memory card slots and this is the lens. You know, just all that stuff that you piece together when you have no idea what you're doing. And then over time, I think I started figuring out, okay, there's actually a lot of life that happens at weddings. You know, there's a lot of people gathering, there's family dynamics at play, there's so much movement, there's so much like humanity and vulnerability and just all these things that I think I naturally found interesting and just started realizing, oh, well, maybe this is where I could make work that I actually want to make. And then you kind of learn over time, well, that stuff is way more interesting to me than, you know, the poses I could learn or, you know, scouting the venue ahead of time and picking out all the places that have interesting backdrops and colors and whatever. That just got really boring, really fast for me, which is not, you know, that's not putting down anybody who finds their, their charge and their energy in that space. I just knew it wasn't for me. So, you know, then you just, I think you start building a language around, around that and figuring out, okay, well, I want this, but does anybody else want this? You know, does anybody actually out there who wants this type of approach and turns out there, there definitely is, but, but you really do have to figure out what to say or what to show that connects with those people so that there's clarity on, on both sides. Love that. You're talking before about, you know, you went into journalism and you mentioned, I went into this, but I didn't even necessarily love writing yet so much of what you do so well is you've been able to kind of capture that, the core essence of what it is that, that you are looking for on a wedding day or that someone who is your ideal client might also want to see reflected in their images and you have, you've so beautifully articulated that well. And I'm curious, how did that process come to be for you? What was the evolution of that from, you know, kind of realizing, oh, I have something different that I'm drawn to that gives me like you're saying that charge. How did it transfer from that internal awareness to that external, I'm going to put this on display and see what happens. Like, did somebody encourage you to share that perspective? Did you just kind of stumble your way into it? How did that shift happen for you? Yeah. I think I just started to see the evidence and just seeing how a particular approach would yield a certain thing over another thing and just seeing, okay, well, this, this feels so much more exciting to me than this. How do I multiply on this? And I think for whatever reason, I've just always been more keyed into the emotional experience of what I'm observing than like the technical piece of it. I grew up, I grew up studying ballet and was like, that was my entire world. And even within that world, which is very much a technical, you know, you've just, you've got to have a solid technical base to have any success in that. Still, I just, I felt like I was way more in tune with, okay, well, how do you emote through this form of dance? And just always sort of felt more drawn to focusing on that in my own progression in it than, you know, figuring out how to do the most perfect conduit in the world. So I think I just inherently resonate more with that sort of emotional experience or maybe it's just a curiosity of it. So I think with weddings, as I started leaning more into, okay, let's maybe just observe here versus direct, just seeing what it produced. I think just was really exciting for me to see, okay, there's this really, there's this great picture that I had nothing to do with. You know, I, I, I didn't offer any guidance. There was no direction on my part. There was no, okay, the light is really great over here. Let's, let's shimmy over here. You know, the only thing that I affected was just, just my physical presence in the space. But other than that, there was nothing I had to do. And just seeing, okay, there's nothing that I have to sort of project onto this to get something really exciting. That just, I think was kind of like a drug, you know, and you just want that every time. And I've just been more or less chasing that very aggressively, just to be able to have, to have that over, okay, this is a really great shot. But, you know, I did a lot of directing to get it. I'm seeing and hearing this thread woven throughout your story, you know, you're talking about being drawn to the stories and journalism, you're talking about going all back to your ballet days and that you were just so drawn, yes, there was the technical component, but you were drawn to that emotive side. And you've used the word curiosity a few times, like that's obviously kind of ingrained in your, your DNA of like who you are and how you show up in the world. And I think that something that I just want to say in this is, I know there are so many photographers who admire your work and who are loving what you're doing. But what makes it stand out and what's so important and so beautiful is that it's true to who you are through and through. Like, it's not, I, here's this trend. Let me go hop on it. It's here's who I am and how do I draw that out and allow it to be expressed through the lens of of what it is that I'm doing. And I think that's just a really important distinction because we can all get so caught up in trends or things that feel fun or excited. But what we're hearing here in this story is like there's, there's been a poll here much longer than just, you know, the last few years of your photography career, like this started long ago and you're just allowing it to rise to the surface. Yeah, I feel accurate. And that yes, I think that does very much. And I feel like for me, it's, it's really been a selfish necessity to figure out how to work in this, in the wedding industry in particular, which, which I think does tend to be a more performative industry, you know, in various ways and those ways aren't bad. It's just a matter of finding, okay, what resonates for you as somebody who works in this space and what doesn't. And whatever that happens to be is, okay, it's just a matter of, okay, well, do you have clarity on what that is one way or the other? And are you actually moving in the direction of the thing that resonates most? So I think for me, just finding a way to do the kind of work that I want in an industry where that may be a little more difficult, it really has just been sort of a, how can I make this work? And really just sort of actively figuring that out. One of the reasons that we were so excited about this interview Tracy was that you share so much differently than a lot of photographers and you have the benefit of, I would say you're a word Smith, you're good with your words, you're able to articulate what can feel like complex ideas around performance into something really simple. And I was just curious, I've never done this with anybody else, but I went to, do you remember top nine? Oh, yeah, back in the old Instagram days, yeah. That site still exists top9.co. So I put your, your handle in there and the top nine images are not images. Our posts, well, I would say that, well, there are a handful of images in there, but all, they're, they're a philosophy or an ethos statement with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which I found not surprising in the slightest. So in addition to this, I went back and scrolled deep into your Instagram. And I found your first posts when you were shifting from just sharing your wonderful images to starting to share all of these thoughts in an unapologetic outspoken way. And the first I found was in May of 2023. Now, I don't know when chat GPT came out, but I do not think that it was out then. And I don't even associate your words with chat GPT, but we are in a rise at the moment of photographers now having a tool to say, oh, I can have something else right for me what I feel. And I'm sure you can sniff out a chat GPT written post very quickly. But unlike what's happening now, you've been doing this for a few years. And the first things that came out were unpopular client opinions. And then in October of that year, five signs you need a documentary photographer. And by December, all of a sudden came all these posts that we all know and love hot takes, top tips, ethos statements. So I'm, I want to dive into that because there had to be a point where you were like, I need to start speaking this out into the world rather than just showing images. And what was the catalyst behind that? Okay, quick pause because I'm going to share the heart behind this podcast and why it exists. Now, so much of what we talk about here is shaped by the work happening in purpose and profit, our system that's helping photographers and filmmakers step into clarity, to confidence, and into a business that finally feels like theirs. And honestly, watching our students transform has changed us too. Jen always says it's not just about the bookings, it's about who you become when you stop guessing. And guys, she's right, the system gives people away forward. You've seen photographers five, 10, even 15 years into the careers find new momentum, new creativity, and a way to grow without losing themselves in the process. So if you've been listening, feeling that little nudge that desire for more alignment to make more and to create from a truer or freer place, you can explore purpose and profit in the show notes. It's the work that we believe in, it's the transformation that we just love witnessing. And it's what makes this podcast possible. You know, I would have these conversations a lot with my husband just trying to figure out, okay, well, this, you know, this is what I really want to do. This is what makes most sense for me. What is the actual path to get there and to be able to do that? Because, you know, at the time, I was doing this work, but it wasn't like the bread and butter, it wasn't consistent. It would be, I think of a lot of people's stories who, you know, maybe they've got a handful of clients for the year who feel really aligned. And then maybe the bulk, they're great people, but maybe you're not feeling that really core connection that you really, really want to fill your entire year, your entire season with, just people that are so beautifully matched with who you are and what the work you want to produce is. And it's just sort of like that magic match. And just knowing that I wanted that and also understanding that I needed that to be able to do it for the long haul. So my husband very kindly said, nobody cares about other people's wedding fixtures. And, you know, that's a very sort of maybe brutal way to say that, but I think there's truth in that where, you know, in this, in this period of time where we are so saturated with wedding, with wedding imagery. And I think there is a lot of sameness, you know, I think, especially people who are looking for a photographer or seeing a lot of the same thing across different platforms. And, you know, was just trying to figure out, well, how do I interrupt that? Can I interrupt that with pictures, maybe? But we all know the algorithm game and we know how social media works and sometimes just pictures alone. You know, we all want to be the photographer or the artist who says, well, I just want my work to speak for itself. You know, I just want the pictures to speak for themselves. And if I put them out there, then the people will find me. And I think there are people who are able to leverage just their work through imagery. And those people are brilliant. But I wasn't feeling like I was getting the traction I wanted with that. So, you know, just try to figure out, well, what is another format? You know, I am a journalist. Well, I shouldn't say that. I'm not a journalist, but I have a journalism major. Can I use words to leverage this? Can I get some traction through writing? And just really making the ethos easily accessible, very visible. And I think the first thing I posted was like a quote from a client's email, where I just really felt like that sentiment was very much aligned with the direction I wanted to move in. And I just thought, oh, what the heck? I'm just going to like, you know, slap this onto a slide post it and see what happens. And that, I mean, just like a text slide performed so much better than any of my pictures ever did. And it was a bit surprising, but it signaled to me that it strikes a chord, that that sentiment strikes a chord for clients, but also for other photographers working in weddings. And just over the few years that I've been doing this, that's, you know, one of the biggest takeaways for me is that there are so many photographers working in this space who don't want to work the way they're working. They want to work in a way that feels so much more genuine to who they are and what they want to produce. So I think just luckily seeing that post struck a nerve. I think that just gave me whatever confidence I needed to put some other stuff out there. And just really throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what stuck. Some of it did, some of it didn't. But I always say, you know, the stuff that kind of flops, you know, okay, well, that's, that's not something that's resonating for people. That's fine. But at least now I know. So I think I've just sort of leaned into that as a way to just sort of target the messaging. You know, I just, I really want people to know what I do, why I do it. And over those few years, you know, I'm looking at my calendar for next year and the alignment piece is, it's better than it's ever been. So the work does pay off. Okay, I want to ask this question from two different perspectives because you spoke to this problem that a lot of photographers feel like they don't want to be creating the way they are. So I'm curious to know what's a common thing that you hear from photographers maybe in your DMs or on comments on your posts. And then I'll ask the follow-up question to that. Let's start there. Yeah, probably a common one is, I don't know, what do you say to people when they look at you and they don't know what to do and they're looking for direction? That's a very, very common one. And I always, I always sort of laugh because there is no, like, there's no magic answer, there's no, there's nothing I could sell people to kind of give them a solution in that moment because really it's just quite literally doing nothing. You know, rather than sort of resorting to direction, it's just, it's allowing a pause. It's allowing maybe even a little bit of discomfort on, on either side. It's, it's just sort of waiting and watching and trusting that, that something real is going to happen on the other side of that. And just having done this so much now, I know, yes, something real and something way better than what I could have jumped in and rescued them with is going to happen because I see it every time. And that's like, that's the exciting thing for me. So, so I sort of go after that every time. But maybe, you know, maybe for some people the exciting thing is being able to jump in and really like take it in a, in a particular direction and just getting a really exciting result from that. For me, the exciting thing is, okay, what are these people going to do in this moment of vulnerability in this moment of humanity where, you know, they, this is a big day. They are feeling a lot of things. I don't want to dictate what that experience is going to be or how it will unfold. I'm really just curious to see where it'll go on its own. What does that make you think of? Do you know what I'm thinking of? I think of our family sessions. Yeah. Yeah. Like a photographer that we love who has taken sessions of us where you're like, oh, wait, did he get anything? Are we being awkward? Are we not? And then after you were, did you get the images? You're like, oh, my gosh, I couldn't have like, what the heck? How did he get these? Yeah. The first time he photographed our family, he came in and sat on our dining room table and said, what do you want to do? And waited through the awkward pause, waited through the discomfort and never told us ever throughout the entire session what to do and let us lead. And to echo Jen's words, he left and we thought, I hope he got something. And to this day, we look back on the many sessions that we've had with him and we still say, no one photographs us like that. Yeah. I think it is in that skill that you practice of being comfortable with the uncomfortable and trusting and knowing time and time again, what that delivers. But it is being confident enough to leave the pause. Like you said, I don't, if I rest, if I jumped in and rescued them, like it's not only rescuing them, it's also kind of rescuing you from that. That's right. And I feel like that, that isn't something that someone can be taught. It's like, nope, you just literally have to do the reps. You have to. Yeah. It does take practice and practice. Yeah. And it feels really icky at first, you know. And there's a lot, I think there's a lot of fear behind it. You know, I think a lot of photographers fear that if they don't jump in with direction, then they'll be perceived as not knowing what they're doing or they're not experienced or they're not professional. And I think what I've just accepted is that, you know, there are very, it's a very broad spectrum of skills and approaches in the world of photography and the same that there are many genres of writing. There are many genres of of filmmaking and music and all of those things. And it may be in photography at one end of the spectrum, you have a directorial skill set who are very highly skilled curators. And they know exactly what to do to yield a particular result. And then maybe on the other side of the spectrum, you have, you know, pure observationalists who who just really genuinely trust people's instincts. And they're most curious about people's instincts. And I definitely fall on the end of that spectrum. And so for me, the skill set is observation. You know, the skill set for me is not direction, it's observation and how I'm positioning myself and and being able to recognize when people are doing something that's working. And you just, I think you become kind of fluent in body language. That's sort of the core of the skill set is understanding people's behavior and how they move and helping them lean into things that they're doing that are working. And, you know, boosting people's confidence through just encouragement and reinforcement in those moments rather than do this exact thing. But yeah, it does take practice. And just giving yourself some time and space to figure it out. Okay, so photographers are coming to you after these beautifully written outspoken posts. They're asking an overarching question of how on the other end, you have couples who are going to inquire with you, whether that is in your DMs or going to your site and recognizing that you don't have a form. You have a phone number in an email address, which leaves so much room for open-ended conversation, which I think is beautiful and so aligns with what I've gathered from you. What are you hearing from your couples when you hear from them the first time? Yeah. Removing that form, I think, was one of the best things that I did with the website. I noticed just an instant change in tone of what people were sharing and how people were communicating in those initial messages. Whereas before, you know, you are quite literally boxing people in to certain responses. And I think people who are submitting probably multiple forms, they're maybe even copying and pasting into some of these very similar sort of text fields. But when you remove all that and you just give people a blank email and they're just sort of writing what they're feeling or thinking in the moment, the tone just changes so much from, okay, this is a form I'm filling out because I have to, too. I'm genuinely interested in sort of connecting with this person. This is what I want to share. This is why I resonate with your work. And the things I'm hearing are, you know, we're not people who like to perform. We don't love the idea of spending a lot of time posing for pictures. We really just want to be present with our people. And they're just, I think there are people who are sort of keyed into this idea of authenticity. A lot of my clients are actual professional performers who perform for a living. And even, you know, one of my past clients, she put it so beautifully when she said that even in her work in her performance, she's very keyed into the notion of authenticity because she understands and believes that her best work happens when she's coming from a place of authenticity. So, you know, when she was thinking about, well, what do I want? My wedding experience to be, my wedding photography experience to be, she was sort of coming from that place of understanding what authenticity meant for her. So I think it's people who are just sort of inherently tuned in to this idea. And they kind of understand, okay, this feels authentic to me. This maybe doesn't feel authentic to me. And there's kind of red flags that are raised for those people as they're doing their search and they're doing their research. So I think the people who are reaching out to me who really connect are just kind of in tune with what that means and feels like for them. So we're talking about these words that you express on your Instagram, your way of communicating with the wedding community, whether it's photographers or couples looking for a wedding photographer. And I noticed, as I spent some time on your Instagram and your site, that your Instagram is full of bold, direct, almost line in the sand words. But when visiting your site, it completely shifts from you talking to your couples talking. And your site, if I'm not mistaken, is almost 100% your couple's words. Why the contrast? Yeah. So I think when people start looking at photographer websites, they're, I think they're obviously looking at work. Obviously, people have to like a photographer's work to want to work with them. But I think they're also very much in a phase of their experience where they don't really know how this is going to go. And they're kind of looking for those points of connection to help them feel like, okay, these are my people. Or she gets it. Or maybe they're just looking for some validation of things they're already feeling. And maybe they feel weird to feel those things. You know, when sort of anti-performative clients are serving Instagram, I think those people probably feel some tension because they're seeing things that aren't exactly resonating with their own experience or what they're looking for. So, you know, I've had some clients tell me that they just sort of assumed they'd have to kind of fit in that wedding photography box and just kind of go through the motions of that experience. And a lot of people to say that they weren't even sure that something else existed. So I think just giving people that validation to know you're not weird for not wanting to sort of follow this conventional sort of performative formula, you're not like a lot of people actually feel this way. And if you do feel this way, you're in the right place. And I feel like the things that the clients share and the sentiments they share are just really relatable. You know, probably more relatable than a lot of the things that I could share. So that was kind of the intention behind that was to really amplify those voices as much as I could so that the people who could relate to them would have easy access to those. I love just hearing the way that your brain is thinking about really at the end of the day, the heart of serving these couples who are so connected to what it is that you do. You're not just wanting to give them your words, but you're thinking intentionally through the process of how do I make sure to let these couples who were drawn to this thing know that they're in the right space, know that this is normal, know that they're not weird for wanting this. And I think in that, I can only imagine that that transfers over so beautifully to the wedding day because when you're like, you're giving them that permission to want something different, which then leads into like, there's not as much, I would imagine, the expectation of, oh, you're going to tell me what to do on the wedding day because the tone was already set, but then also like, you just kept giving more and more permission as they went throughout your process. Does that make sense? Yep, absolutely. So yes, my clients, even, you know, of course, they'll have moments of vulnerability, but for the most part, you know, nowadays, clients are saying to other people on the day, no, we're not doing that. Or, you know, let's just keep it candid or just stay in the moment or just all these sort of, you know, keywords or phrases that are sort of echoing the things that I try to help people understand is fine. You know, it was okay. And very specifically, that's where I do my best work, just knowing and having clarity on that. So yes, it's always great to hear that people feel the ability to lean into that experience that they really want because there is no way that we have to do it. And I love working with people that find the conventional formulaic way boring, exhausting, unfulfilling, un-rewarding because we have that in common. So we've interviewed some wonderful people lately on the podcast and this theme of permission keeps coming up. And we work with a lot of photographers who are looking for permission. And I often find that the only person that can really give you permission to really do what is in your heart to do, what gives you that spark that you talked about is yourself. And for an artist in an industry that is so competitive, what helps you sit in and walk in the confidence of doing something different in almost everything that you do? Boy, that's a good question. I think just, I think just surrendering to the fact that I couldn't do it any other way. Not for the long haul anyway. I think it's just, it's really just giving in to the fact that I can't work with, I can't work with everybody. I am not, and everybody wouldn't want to work with me, you know, if people are looking for an experience that is heavily guided if they really are looking for somebody who has a really keen eye to curate an experience and an aesthetic. That's not me. And that's okay. So I think it's just understanding that. And I think when you do it for a while, you sort of get to the point where it starts to feel draining. And if you love it enough that you want to keep doing it, you figure out, okay, well, how can this be less draining? And how can this be way more rewarding and fulfilling? And the key for me was absolutely the alignment piece in knowing that, you know, I could try to do my best work with people who weren't aligned. But I figured out that that wasn't particularly possible, you know, that alignment piece has to be in place. I have to work with people who have a level of trust, you know, and there's, there's trust on both sides. They trust that I'm going to do my thing and that they're, they're just sort of philosophically trusting that observation alone will yield something good, will yield something that has, has value. But, but they're all, I think I'm also trusting that they will lean into their instincts and be okay to at least be willing to, to try that, to just, to be willing to be seen, to be willing to be present and vulnerable. And, and the cool thing about it is it's, it's not that like I'm trying to wrangle people into that space. I'm not trying to, to educate people or send them a guide to tell them all about how, how wonderful of being present at your own wedding is, they're already coming to this experience wanting that very specifically. So, just me figuring out that what I think is very similar to what a lot of other people think, and it's just a matter of matching us up. That is huge. I feel like all I can think about is we were literally having a very similar conversation the other day, like Brad and I were having a conversation about a context that someone brought to us. And what you just said so beautifully points to that, which is photographers who want to work in this more authentic space, this place where they're allowing their couples to be present, they so often like quite literally create content that is attracting the exact opposite people because they're doing the things like here's how to show up and be present. Here's this guide for like what it looks like to let yourself be you on your wedding day. It's like that's attracting the people who don't already know how to do that. You're attracting the wrong audience, even though you think you're trying to attract the right one. And that can be such a like confusing mind thing for people to wrap their heads around, like usually people's eyes glaze over when we say that. They're like, oh, I think that makes sense. But can you explain it again? Yeah. You just spoke exactly to that. And such a great way. Yeah. I think there's a lot of fear that's driving a lot of content out there. You know, we're afraid that things aren't going to perform well or we're afraid that we're not going to get the bookings. And all of that's so cliche at this point. You know, we all know those fears. But the thing is they, if you continue to kind of lean into those, they don't, they just don't yield anything different. They continue to yield the same formulaic things that you don't want to be repeating anyway. I think I just figured out that for me, the thing that needed to click was that alignment piece. And so any conversation I have with photographers who are wrestling this for themselves, it's trying to, I think, just help them figure out the thing that's going to click for them. Because once that thing clicks, everything else becomes so much easier. You know, the language starts to fall into place. The work that you show starts to fall into place. And you know, you've already kind of identified the common theme that's woven throughout whatever you say or show. So everything else just becomes so much easier when you figure out, okay, well, what is the work that I want to do and who actually wants it? And then from there, it gets so much easier. Wait, I want to ask a question real quick. Just sticking to this idea of permission and fear. I think another really massive roadblock for photographers that they hold themselves back with is kind of that yeah, but like, yeah, that's great. And I want to pursue that. But does that, will that really allow me to attract higher budget bookings? Or is this going to just kind of be more of like, I have to take who I can take? Like, I think a lot of photographers can really get trapped in that box. And I would love to hear what you'd have to say to someone who like, that's that's the thing holding them back. Like, yeah, but I'm going to lose out financially. Like what would you say to them? And that sort of stance? At least for me, I would not have been able to move into a different booking space had I not made that shift. I think that if I just had continued to produce, you know, kind of conventional, predictable, reliable work, I think that would have sustained me. You know, I could probably book 30 weddings a year with that. But I don't want to work 30 weddings a year. I know that that's just that's too much for me. So I was not able to make that shift financially until I started really sort of aggressively just trying some different things out experimenting, which is okay. You know, like Instagram is a great place to experiment because there's really no consequence. If you post something and nobody sees it, brilliant, nobody saw it, few. You know, like if it doesn't work and it's terrible and nobody saw it, if that's the worst case scenario, then you're in a pretty, you're in pretty great shape. So if there's something you want to say, if there's even like the pictures that people would really love to share, that they're afraid to share, just put it out there. What's the worst that could happen? The best case scenario is that somebody who really resonates with that type of work is going to find you see that you do that and that sparks the conversation and maybe that sparks an opportunity for you to make more of the work you really want to make. I think it's just it's allowing yourself to kind of veer off the railroad a bit and just kind of see what happens. It's going to be there, you know, that railroad's going to be there. If you figure out, oh, this isn't working or this isn't for me, you know, it's always going to be there for you as a backup, but there could be something way better. And why not give that a shot? Okay, so everybody hit pause, go rewind about 45 seconds and listen to that one more time, okay? We see so many photographers come into our community washed up from chasing luxury or chasing higher budget status. You know, it's the the trope of just wanting to level up. And what often happens we see is leveling up rather than getting clarity often results in conformity. And photographers will enter into conversation with Jen and I and I mean, a photographer even said this, I'll use her word. She said, I woke up in a garden that wasn't even mine. And yet to get clear on what somebody wants often results in a lot of fear because it means that they have to then draw a line in the sand of what they want and they battle the thing of what if it doesn't work. So I think what we just said was so profound of like, hey, the rails will always be there to fall back on, but what if something was better on the other side of that line? And man, like Jen said, rewind a minute now two minutes to go listen to that again. And it's what traced me instead of like I wouldn't have been able to step into this bracket had I not gotten clear about what I was about and who I was for. Yeah. And it's the same kind of ethos on a wedding day when you're actually in the thick of it. It's the same thing of, okay, well, you know what the predictable reliable result is. You know, you can get that, you know? You know where the good light is. You have the great camera. You know all the poses. You know all the prompts. You know that you can get X product or X result. But maybe you get that thing every weekend and maybe you're bored to death of that thing. And maybe you're just dying to do something different. But there's this fear of, okay, well, what if my clients don't like it? And, and you know, if that's the worst key scenario, if your clients don't like that picture. Oh, well, you still have that picture to find the people who really love that picture. So, so yeah, if you take like 30 seconds of a wedding day to maybe go off the rails a little bit and kind of see what happens with the less predictable path with the, okay, well, maybe I don't direct them. Maybe I just quite literally watch what they do. Maybe they'll do something that feels really exciting to you. And, and you get that picture and you feel that charge of, okay, well, that was them. I know that that was them. That was a real moment while they were having a real experience. And now I can give that to them. I can show that to them and they'll have it forever versus, okay, well, I knew that pose and they look really great in that pose. But, but for you just asking yourself which one has more value. And, and being willing to just take, take a 30 second risk on a wedding day to just start to see where that goes. And, and I feel like if you're anything like me, you will be so hungry to turn the whole day into that. So, Tracy, knowing that your couples are investing, you know, upwards of five figures to have you at their wedding, to, to give them this experience, I'm imagining that you are working alongside other professional vendors, whether that's planners and videographers, people who are excelling in their craft alongside you, are there moments where those people unintentionally pull things into performance mode as you are trying to give your couples space and preserve these holy moments. And how do you protect your approach during that time? Yeah, it happens at every single wedding. Which, which is okay. I accept that reality and you just use it as an opportunity to kind of stake your stake in the ground even further. This actually just happened. I just wrapped my season up last weekend with a brilliantly aligned client. And I think different vendors are coming from different places and every single one of them has really good intentions. I think planners have the intentions of making sure that photographers have the time, space and resources that they need to do their jobs really well. Because their mindset is that they want to do really great work for the clients, but they also want to take really good care of everybody else who's on the team. So, this particular wedding, you know, I met the planner on site and one of the first things they asked me was where I want the flowers and the details to do the detail shots. And I just very graciously said they really want me to focus on candidates. If there's time, you know, I'll try to give that a shot, but my focus will be here. And that's okay. And, you know, sometimes there is that, you know, I kind of feel that response of, well, who do you think you are? Every photographer does that. Why are you so special that you're not going to do that? Or are they going to the space of thinking, well, that's going to be a disappointment for the clients? You know, every client wants the lay flat. Why isn't she agreeing to do the lay flat? So I think there's probably some doubt when I give those responses. But then it is always so validating when planner has the conversation later with the clients and they say, you know, hey, did you want to, did you want your invitations or ring or anything to do a quick lay flat and my client this past weekend said, no, we're not doing any of that. And it's just so validating to just to know that I'm not, you know, if any photographer feels this way, you're not the bad guy. You know, you're not, you're not being the pretentious photographer who is being disagreeable and not being a team player. You're, you're doing work for clients who are really well aligned with you. And the reality is we have to work with the team, but we are not working for planners. I think we have really great relationships with planners and we rely on planners quite a bit. You know, I have a handful of really great planners who will let me know when they have somebody who's a good fit. And I'm so grateful for that. But I think the process is again, you kind of find your people, but you also find your vendor people. You know, you find your planners who share a similar mindset or you find your planners who who do end up working with clients who share these values and they're desperate to find a photographer who does as well. So I feel like you just can't be afraid to be able to be honest in the moment. You know, if I were to say in that moment, yeah, sure, let's, let's throw the flowers together, you know, give me their invites. Let's get their rings. That would have been 30 minutes for me to put that together. I would have been completely ignoring whatever else was happening in the room. And then when I delivered to the clients, they're going to have, you know, maybe a really great lay flat, but they're not going to have anything about what was happening in the room. And so they'll be disappointed because of that. But not every client is like that. It's so important to find clients who want to see the chaos in the room more than they want to see the details. Beautiful. Photographers aren't the bad guy if they're not interested in that. Yeah, I think that's a really good sentiment there. As long as you're doing your job of doing what Tracy has done, which is very thoroughly communicating on the front end because otherwise there might be missed expectations. But I also think, I think maybe more to what you were asking is there's, I think there's like a set of imagery that we all kind of associate with the luxury wedding space. And I think we sort of just unconsciously assign a price tag to that. But it's sort of a misnomer that every client who's investing a lot in their wedding wants that particular aesthetic. There are clients who are investing a lot in their wedding who don't want to perform. They don't want a performative experience. They don't want a day that's heavily curated. They don't want a day that's about pictures. So it's really just about separating those two worlds. And just believing that there are people out there who are spending a lot of money who don't want to perform. Yeah. So good. It's funny. You just said it's not about pictures. And you're, I mean, obviously this podcast is called more than photos. And your number one most engaged like to post says it's not about photos. Yeah. Yeah. Such a through line through everything that you're saying, Tracy, and I just love the heart, the philosophy, the curiosity, the confidence, the groundedness in all of this. And you've spent, I actually don't know when you got started, but you actually, or you at least have spent the last couple of years really leaning into this philosophy and not just talking about it, but allowing it to shape your work and your business. And I'm just curious about what you're moving towards in 2026. Like what's next you're looking like for you? And what are you excited and maybe more importantly, what are you curious about? Yeah. So next year I think is going to be probably an effort to level up in probably the curation piece. You know, I think, I think if anybody who's worked in this industry long enough, they've seen it turn very much into a volume effort. You know, how many clients can we book? How many pictures can we deliver? Or or maybe it's, you know, we're delivering so many pictures because we just don't have the time in the space or the mental bandwidth to go through and really figure out what's the good stuff, what is the stuff that is, you know, my work that I feel really good about. I think that's where I'd like to invest probably more time and energy in figuring out, okay, from a wedding, what's the top 10? You know, the top 10 pictures that are a good representation of my work, but also, you know, the truth of the day. Just if I only gave people 10 pictures, what would that look like? And certainly there are plenty more, but how do I kind of make those more forefront? How do I have conversations with clients about those? How do we connect through those? Just really making, making the, we all pour so much time and energy into this work. How do we make it more about the work? Unless about the business and industry and the, you know, the algorithm and all that, how do we make it actually more about these pictures that we're, that we're taking and making at people's weddings? I feel like for me, for long haul, that is, that's the thing that I feel energy around. SEO of my website is like bottom of the barrel. All those things that I probably should pay attention to that I just don't, I feel like as photographers, we should be focused more on the photography. We don't have a lot of time left to go into this, but one of the things I wanted to talk about, which I'm just going to charge any photographer listening here, go to Tracy's site and go to her meet my clients page because it is a brilliant expression of what it looks like to converse with your clients. And it speaks to exactly what you're saying is, refining, I think it was 15 images with Grace and Tejo that you were able to have a conversation, to hear about their experience on the other side of the lens and then to share images that meant something to you guys. And generally I talk all the time with our own students about how important it is to have conversations with your couples after, how much you'll learn from them, how much you'll learn about what they valued, what meant something to them that you didn't even realize would mean something so that you can keep repeating those things or learning from mistakes along the way to help continue serving your couples and make it about the main thing. So I love that word and I love that part of your site and I think it's a really brave and beautiful things put out there. Yeah. Well, I was just going to say that those conversations have been sort of surprisingly rewarding for me and I think it probably took some time for me to even feel comfortable asking for those conversations, you know, asking for people's time and as I kind of evolve the workflow, I'm asking for people's time more and more. But it's been incredibly rewarding to just be able to have, you know, like a five minute conversation around one picture where I learned so much about that moment than I ever would have known. I learned so much more about the people and I learned what are the things that mean something to them about this picture and you sort of take that knowledge and you take that context into your future work and it just, it kind of snowballs and continues to feed whatever your ethos is. It just all kind of fills that bucket of this is so much more than just showing up to a wedding, taking the same pictures every weekend, delivering the same thing in as quick a time as we can. There's so much more to it that can be rewarding and sustaining. But it, you know, it takes some conscious decision making to start to move in that direction. One of the things that we always ask as we kind of end these interviews is a question about success and assuming that work is good, that everything's aligned, how would Tracy answer, what does a good life look like for you? Practically day-to-day, like what does success mean in your world outside of business and bookings? Yeah, the success piece for me has never been a money thing, you know, money has never been a motivator. I feel like the motivator for me is my time and not hating every hour of the work. You know, I don't want to be sitting in an office editing work that I've edited so many times before. I want to be in the office and editing work that feels exciting and feels different and feels like an actual representation of the day that I feel excited to share with these people. So I think it's, and it's also knowing how do you balance that with everything else you want in your life. And that's been a very slow, slow learning process for me of what does that process look like? I think by default, I would sort of dump everything into work if I had no other accountability. So I think it's okay, how do we make the work time as high quality time as we can? And how does that actually facilitate me being able to have life outside of work that also feels rewarding? So I honestly, I'm not even sure what that precisely looks like, but I'm definitely aware of the balance and wanting to not hate my hours of work. This has been just such a fun conversation. Just so grateful for your openness and your vulnerability and just kind of sharing all the steps of the journey and some of that internal dialogue or process as well with people. I think that will be just really helpful for people listening to be able to take the pieces of your story. And obviously they're going to have their own story in that. But being able to see how these things came to fruition for you so that they can kind of start saying, how do I apply this in my own life in the places that I want to step in and be brave or step in and say the thing that I've been holding back saying or the images I've been holding back sharing. And I just hope everyone is walking away with a great sense of like, oh, I can do this because I feel like you just gave everyone so much hope in that. Yeah. And really, truly as humbly as I possibly can say, if I was able to get any traction with any of this, quite literally, anybody, anybody can, it just, there's no like secret formula. It's just, it's just making a decision that you want X thing. And then you learn over time how you get there. It's not a, you know, we're not figuring this out overnight. It's just know what you want. And you'll figure it out along the way. Hey, real quick, before you head out, just want to say thank you. Truly. It means so much to Jen and I that you're here listening and growing and being a part of this small little corner of the creative world with us. Every message you send, every takeaway you share, every story about how an episode hit you, we see it, we read it, and it genuinely means so much to us and fuels us to keep creating. If you haven't yet, we'd love for you to take a moment and leave a rating or a review. It helps more photographers and filmmakers find these conversations. And more importantly, let's just know what's resonating with you, what's helping and what you want more of. We're so grateful for you. Thanks for being here. We'll see you in the next episode.