021 Exclusivity sells: structuring an effective membership program

Welcome to the Stanza, a show for investors and entrepreneurs in the creative industries. I'm your host, Nadine Cho, and I'll be sharing stories of unique people creating their own paths. Thanks for tuning in and enjoy the show. Luxury hospitality businesses are expected to consistently deliver the best experiences possible, and the best brands in the space share this one tool behind the scenes to make that happen. People Vine. People Vine is not just a CRM tool. It's the technological backbone that empowers operators to elevate every guest and member experience. How? By providing the tools to enable personalized experiences, streamline billing, showcase exclusive events, manage dining reservations, and tailor activity bookings all curated around the distinct preferences of your members and guests. For nearly a decade, people Vine has been the software preference for the best brands in hospitality, several of which I've mentioned throughout my content and you probably know and love. I'll leave a link in the show notes so you can check out which brands are also using people Vine and also book a free demo for your business. Now back to the episode. Today's guest is Annabel Schwartz, founder of Hospitality Consultancy House of Tolona. Annabel was the former West Coast memberships manager at So House and most recently the director of member relations and culture at Samus and Taibongalos. We did a deep dive on all the fun topics within hospitality, curating and designing a members club, the consumer psychology of exclusivity, the meaning of great hospitality, and trend protections on the future of the industry. Annabel has so much unique experience and insight into the business from a behind the scenes angle, and I know you're all going to love this episode. On another note, this is the final guest episode interview of the season. The podcast will come back later this year, but for now definitely be sure to subscribe to the newsletter and follow along on Instagram and TikTok. Thank you guys for tuning in and enjoy the show. Hello Annabel, welcome to the stunts of podcast. How are you doing? I'm really well-thanks. Thanks so much for having me. My first podcast experience I'll have you now. I'm so excited to have you as like the first because your experience is absolutely insane, and I know my audience is just going to be so delighted to listen to this interview. So let's start from the beginning. How did you start at So House? And what was your background that positioned you for that role and then subsequently at Samus and Taibongalos? So I actually, I always think that the experience question is a really interesting one for me because I can give you the spin, right? I can tell you what I did in New York, which I started my career in residential real estate. I was doing sales. I had it in my head that I was going to eventually become residential real estate developer. I loved the concept of home and the experience of home and that feeling of home and all of it just sort of panned out that way. And then when I realized that it wasn't so much the physical structure of a home of an apartment building or of those communal spaces within a residential building that was getting me so excited about real estate, it was really more the feeling. I decided to pivot and I left real estate. I went over to event production and started kind of creating these feelings or these atmospheres, these experiences for people in milestone moments and trying to sort of recreate that feeling of excitement and happiness and comfort and familiarity that a home provides you with. And that's a spin, right? Those are like two great work examples that I then realized actually the calling the merging of those two things was hospitality and so I came to LA and I started working in hospitality. I don't actually really believe that. I think that sure, I definitely learned some amazing things from my real estate career. I think I learned some amazing things from my event career and I'm sure parts of that definitely played a role in making me successful within the hospitality industry. But I think that ultimately what really, you know, as far as my experience goes, what really made a difference was really just who I am by nature. My temperament, my personality, the way that I was raised, the way that my parents have always acted around me, the friends that I have, the fact that I grew up in New York, all of those things sort of played such a massive part in me becoming me and me being well suited for the hospitality industry. And so I get calls all the time from membership clubs or hospitality companies asking me like, who do I have? Who can I recommend? Who should they interview? Who should they hire for a membership director or a culture director? And I always really tell them, look outside the box. Do not look for somebody who necessarily has hospitality experience or who's been a membership director or somebody yet somewhere else. You know, it really, really, really does come down to the personal experience and the personal relationships and the personal personality and the rest of it can be taught or weren't sort of very quickly. And then what happened that led you to SVB and working for Jeff Klein? So I was at so-how I was the membership director for the West Coast and I loved it. Honestly, zero complaints, loved my experience, loved my team, loved my members, loved the houses. I really had a specific focus on the founding members of So House West Hollywood. So we were around the 10-year anniversary of So House. A lot of the founding members had already left to go to SVB or just weren't coming as often. And that was a primary focus of mine. I really wanted to get a lot of the founding members back. And I spent all my time really focusing on that. Of course, obviously looking at the partnerships of the new members and making sure we're touching tables and doing the thing and being the host and welcoming the guests into the property and whatnot. But the founding members was my was my big focus. After I felt like I had really done a good job at making an impact on those founding members and bringing some of them back into the house, creating programs that really valued them, I randomly got approached by Jeff and his team. And I originally was not interested in in leaving it all. It was a very drawn out long process of Jeff and I flirting back and forth essentially. Until finally, he was like, I really want you on board. I understand that the role we were looking for originally doesn't suit you, but I want you on board. So tell me what role you want and let's make it. And I thought that that was just such a rare and unique opportunity that I really couldn't give up. Obviously, I knew his club and I respected his club and I respect him more than anything. And I was excited to work with him, but it was really that opportunity to sort of mold my own role, which made me very, very attracted to making that switch. And so that was sort of how I ended up making the jump. I could totally see you. I mean, just your whole vibe is very like tall, cool door girl. And you have a very New York, like what you were saying, like, you know how people say New Yorkers are kind, but not nice. And then people from LA are nice, but not kind. Do you agree with that? I 100% agree with that. I think it's, you know, we've been talking about it a lot lately. Actually, just this idea like New York pride in my like in my household with my with my husband, because we're we just got married. We're thinking about having kids some time soon. And I see him all the time, like, there is something so intrinsically deep inside of me where I have New York pride. And like, let me be super, super clear. As a New York City kid, as somebody who grew up in Manhattan, New York pride extends to Manhattan, right? Like, it's just been like in Long Island, you're that's it's Queens. Like it's it's it's it's upstate New York. I don't know. It's New Jersey. Like it's it's Manhattan or nothing. I don't I we we're really we're terrible about it. If you grew up in Manhattan, you have a really, really crazy attitude about it, but you also have this amazing pride. And I keep, you know, joking to my husband that like if we end up having kids in Los Angeles, I'm going to bully my kids so much about the fact that they are not in New York. That's so funny. Yeah, I mean, it the whole personality and like what you what you've been up to, it totally makes a lot of sense. I see you as someone who is an expert in coordinating or just like designing and structuring a membership program. So I was just wondering if you could share what your thoughts/insights were into what goes into an effective membership program and like what is an effective membership program to you? Yeah, so I mean, I guess it you know, it depends on what you define success as or effective, right? And I think that you can obviously look at sort of standard business KPIs of, you know, your retention rate or your new application rate, your conversion rate or the number of members, how many people you have on a weight list and all of those things are true and they're all great numbers and they're all great marketing tools to use. It's just not how I have defined an effective membership program. I think that, you know, for me really creating a space where genuine community actually unfolds, where there is real connection, where there's not just connection amongst the members, but there's a connection amongst the staff between the staff and between the members and the staff. And I think that, you know, sort of creating a level of sort of spontaneity, capturing someone's entire day because a membership club really can go through the entire day with you and and sort of giving somebody a place where it genuinely creates a memory in their mind or it creates an impact in their life when they look back at their year, right? New Year's is coming up when they look back at 2023 and they think of all the good times they had all the bad times they had the lessons they learned, the hard breaks they went through, whatever it is, creating a space that actually jumps out in their memory as a place where all of these things took place. It is effective to me. That to me is when you really, you've done a good job. You have, you have impacted somebody's life. Some of the good memories are there, but some of the bad memories are there too and that's okay. It's just, it's your part of somebody's story. You really created an experience for that person. And that's what a membership club is more than anything else, right? I think that, you know, hotels sort of have, I would define a hotel success in a similar manner, but I think that the pressure of a membership club is significantly stronger, right? Because you don't just have people coming in paying for the product in which they're using. They're paying to pay to use that product or that service or that space or that, you know, that food and beverage, whatever program. And so the demand is higher. The expectation is higher. And it's, it's really important that we're not just prying on people's willingness to spend money, but you're actually delivering something that is significantly more special that the service is significantly more exceptional to justify it. Yeah, it's like a lot of moving pieces because you need to have an event's curation, you know, a member curation. And like on top of that, you have a food and beverage business, which is, you know, on its own so difficult to run. So like all of these moving pieces on wine, it's a lot for sure. 100%. And I think, you know, I'm sure we'll get into it in a moment, but membership clubs are sort of popping up a dime and does in these days, right? That you can see more membership clubs than doing these days. And I've spoken to quite a few developers or founders or, you know, people that are in charge of these places. And a lot of them sort of have it in their head that they've opened restaurants before the margins are so small there, they're basically going to do the same thing, but just have all this extra cash coming in because now they have a membership fee. And I think they're completely, completely out of their minds. It's not just opening up another industry and then tacking on membership dollars. There are so many people that go into making sure that the membership side of your business is effective. And then it requires so many more people to be supportive. Like you said, having that events department, having the private events department, having the programming department, having the partnerships department, you can have perks, and then you have the newsletter. So you can keep everyone engaged and more so than just a regular hotel or restaurant because you actually need those people physically in your property filling up spaces because you don't have the luxury of the public coming in and filling up your space. So not only is the expectation higher, but the work is heavier. And what would you say are some key points that you have seen that works in delivering this value and this experience and like, you know, what you were talking about, place making and like creating memories and experiences for members. It obviously depends on sort of like where you are in the development stage. If you're open, if you're starting, if you're just sort of coming up with the concept, I think, you know, sort of marketing 101 is really talking about your who, what, why, right? And figuring out what are you trying to create and really get specific about it and who are you trying to create it for and then why are you trying to create it and going through those three steps. Believe it or not, as like rudimentary as that sounds, so many people sort of skip that. I have quite a few clients that are really in the hotel space more than anything who, you know, they'll come to me and be like, well, we want to make this like a really fun space at night where everyone's coming by and having a drink. And I'm like, looking around the space and like, well, I'm not gonna happen. Like, you design the space incorrectly. That's what you want. If you're going after 25 to 45 year olds that are each making 150 plus, you know, 150,000 dollars plus a year, this is in that space. This is not what they're asking for. So really sort of coming down to those, those really fundamental questions and really flushing them out. When I do a who, I don't just like have like a quick conversation of like, Oh, you know, somebody who is living in a major city, who makes an amount of money, we come up with 12 different profiles. We're like, Caroline from New York City, she's 55 years old, she spends a career working in events, she grew up in Cape Town, she and now I'm just describing my mom by the way, but, you know, to me, she would come up with with these like very, very intense profiles of people and then really keep those those 12 profiles in our minds so that every decision that we make going forward is like, well, would Caroline like that, you know, would she, could she afford it, would she, does she have time for this, you know, and all of those things. So that sort of key principle number one is really going back to basics. And then I guess the, you know, two of these sort of like intertwined with each other where I think specifically a membership club, but definitely, definitely, definitely every industry. If you, if you're dealing with consumers or you have a forward-facing relationship with your, your guest or customer, et cetera, is really having an amazing CRM. And what I mean by that is not the basic CRM that we are talking about that we've been used to, that businesses have been using for a long time, really, really, really, really starting to collect those data points on your customer and utilize them in a way that's really effective and meaningful to them. Be thoughtful with that, right? Like, we have, you know, using membership as a, as a, as a good example, we really try to make sure that your, that our server is when you first come in, right, one of the first questions that you get asked when you sit down to a table is would you like sparkling, flat, or tap water, right? And nine times that attendance usually the member who's going to make that response as far as what they're, what they want. And after the second or third time that they sat down, you'll pick up on a pattern. They usually have a preference. By that second or third time, we're expecting to be able to have that data point on the member so that we can usually just come back to the table and say, you know, welcome back, Nadine, I've got a bottle of sparkling on its way, would anybody else like something else, right? And it's just, it's something that's so tiny, it's such an easy little data point to pick up on, where they're like, oh, wait, I just realized you guys haven't asked me, you know my, you know my drink order, you know my water order, you know my allergies, you know my, all of these things, and it, it really just sort of creates this level of familiarity, and it's like elevated experience, and it's something that's so easy. And it's something that, you know, Will Guderra from, from 11 Madison, he was sort of the, you know, with his, I don't think they were, were they dream makers or dream weavers, I think he called them, but they basically would sort of listen in for those different, those little points where they could go and create these amazing experiences, these one off, one of a kind, dream making, gifts or, or special moments, Easter eggs, whatever you want to call them, based on little tidbits that they picked up from, from, you know, researching the client, or the, the guest that was coming in beforehand, or, or overhearing something that they were set up table, and that was obviously done in such an extraordinarily beautiful, but massively produced way. If you just listen for those basic things, listening to, you know, somebody talks about their dog a lot, they probably care about their dog a lot, find out what the dog's name is, you know what I mean, and next time they check in, be like, house fluffy, you know, whatever it is, it's, it's just sort of really, really getting to know your customer and having a really great software in place to be able to not just, you know, keep that collection point, but make sure your entire team, so that the valet person, the busser, the server, your membership director, your general manager, your food and beverage manager, all of these people can be studying your members in a way so that if you are a guest staying at a beach vacation, and you are walking from the beach back to your hotel room, and a gardener is, you know, fixing one of the plants from the side of the path, and he sees you and he, you know, he stands up and he gets out of the way, and as you walk by, instead of just smiling, he says, you know, good morning Mr. Schwartz, like that makes such a huge difference. I feel like I'm at home, you know? So the CRM, I think, makes a really big difference, and then the thing that kind of blends in with that is really having an effective team, investing in that team, and making sure that that team feels so valued, so well heard, so connected, not siloed. It's crazy to me how siloed the hospitality industry becomes, right? Hospitals, there you've got your house keeping over here, your FNB over there, you're everyone is so siloed from each other, and I think that investing in that team, making sure that they feel connected and giving them the resources and the opportunity to really truly become the best at what they do, and to every single person represent the actual values of your brand, by sharing knowledge and information and expectations and SOPs, and making sure that you're training them well enough to be able to execute through the level of expectation that you have for them is paramount. I would say those are my thoughts there. Those are a lot of really good nuggets. I really appreciate that insights. I want to go back to something that you said the comment about how members clubs are popping up more than Dwayne Reads at the moment. So what's your thought on the consumer psychology behind members clubs, and why is there this demand? I would go ahead and say that the demand is not as present as the desire to create. Right now, I think that like I said, you know, so many people are looking at membership clubs, especially the ones that were around during COVID, right? Everyone else in hospitality shut down their doors and just hemorrhaged money. Not membership clubs. Most of them kept charging membership fees. And yeah, it was like this light bulb moment of like, oh my god, so much of what we do does overlap, but they're making millions of extra dollars by doing absolutely nothing. This is great. And so I think that naively people sort of just like jumped into it. And so I don't know if the demand is there for is really if the demand matches the the amount of development that's going into it. But at the end of the day, it really I guess depends on sort of what the membership is. Who is right? I think that the luxury market, this very exclusive market, has been tapped into. It's been around forever. London's been doing it for decades, more than decades. But I think now you're starting to see some membership clubs are like, we're not exclusive. We're for everyone who, you know, are whatever it is. And I don't know if that'll work. I think, you know, it's something that we're seeing a little bit more of more exclusive membership clubs are coming up to. As far as the consumer psychology goes, you know, I think that where the demand lies, what members are expecting, what they're hoping for, what they're looking for, for those that actually do want or need a membership club, I think that the first thing and I think this is why I'm in the industry is that community is something about the intangible, the reality, the in real life, essentially, in a world that is so predominantly controlled by, you know, video calls and phones and all nothing replaces that feeling of just like bumping into somebody meeting someone, having that genuine connection, you know, sparking conversation, the smoking corner, whatever it is. And just meeting people and laughing together and having those moments are really special. And they're looking for that place that's going to curate those moments for them and open the doors to be able to meet those people, right? And I think, you know, one of the biggest defining differences for me between New York and LA is in New York, I always use the San, I always use San and brosso, as a perfect example to me, I think that what they have done is exceptional. On a Saturday afternoon at 12, 1, 2 o'clock, whatever it is, and a nice, sunny day, you're lucky enough to grab one of those two tops outside. You sit down with your girlfriend, you have a diet code, you have your pasta, whatever it is, you play around a backgammon, and as those tables start filling up around you, what you'll start noticing is everyone talking to each other. You are interrupting the person to your left, you're talking to the person to your right, you're pushing up a chair, you're pulling up a table, people are walking by, you're starting conversations, someone smoking is cigarette, you get annoyed with them, you start yelling at them, and then they start laughing with you, and then you realize that you were at the same party last night and you slept together. It's just this amazing hodgepodge, and in Los Angeles, it's very different, right? There is celebrity culture here, which I, you know, can't grab my head around. So I think, you know, with LA, with celebrity culture here, people aren't as free and as spontaneous and as open to those genuine connections in the general public, right? On one hand, there's this like terrible snooty-ness where if you look to your left and that person is not as important as you or somebody you don't recognize, you're kind of like, oh, not worth my time. And then if you look to your right, that person is, you know, a director or producer or an actor, a singer, you know, a big agent at CAA, whatever it is, you're like, oh my god, it's it's so-and-so, like, let me just like stick in my land. And it sort of, it suffocates, that's fascinating. It suffocates that connection. And so with a membership club, when you walk in, those walls have sort of been broken down. You know that everyone is equally as cool to you or more, and if they're more cool than you or they're more famous or they're more whatever, they're still at a membership club, so they're open to connection, they're open to having those moments and bump in, that the smoking lounge or whatever it is. And so it kind of just sort of, it's a, at a heart-opener, if you will. And even though New York has that incredible spontaneity, it has that, those wonderful human emotions and those connections, it still just sort of create this really beautiful atmosphere that breeds it when you're in a membership club. So I think that that is, you know, something that's driving demand for a membership club. And then on the complete opposite end of that spectrum, you really also do have this really great balance of not only just creating that community, but also respecting privacy, having that privacy, knowing that when you walk into your membership club, there's only a very, very, very, very, very tiny percentage of the city that you live in's community that's in there, right? And nine times out of 10, a membership club, especially when that's catering to people that really do need privacy, they have thought about that, right? They have some certain tables that are a little bit more, you know, hidden or far off from the general dining space. They have areas that you can go to and sneak around if you want to have like your private date night or if you're closing a business deal with a, you know, a competing studio hat or whatever it is. So it does, it does afford a level of privacy that I think people are looking, looking for, especially in a post-COVID world, I think that, you know, you, like I said earlier, you have this greater expectation of a membership club, you expect it to be cleaner, you expect it to be better, you expect it to be, you know, stricter, all those things. And so you, you have this sort of dependency and reliability and trust in your membership club, including privacy. And then I think reliability is a huge thing. I think especially for those of us who do not go into an office and work a traditional job, myself included, for instance, I am perpetually running around from meeting to meeting, meeting this client, going to that property, doing that thing and having a space in between everything that I can just sort of like pop in, I have 30 minutes, I'm not going to run home in 30 minutes, by the time I get home, I have to get back in my car. So just having that place where I can always pop into, I know I can always find a seat, I can just open up my laptop, bang out a couple of emails, grab a coffee, run into a friend, just strike up conversation with the server that I see every other Thursday, whatever it is, there is that reliability of having a membership club where you're immediately irregular, right? You're immediately part of the family, you know everyone around you. You can grab a table, you're not going to have to wait. Whatever it is, that's a really nice luxury in today's, in today's social market. There's a comment that you made earlier about how you don't think that the members clubs that are catering to just anyone and are not exclusive are maybe not going to do as well, I want to understand why. The same way sex sells exclusively sells, it's just what it is, you know, and I think that that makes it a hotter, anything that's exclusive, I think just becomes hotter. There is also something just as far as like a general, you know, marketing hack, let's say if I show you two different AirPods, right? And they look identical to each other, but I tell you 100 and 150, chances are you'll think the 150 one is a better product. And they could be the exact same, right? And so that's the same thing with exclusive, it's just by slapping that word onto it or telling you that there's a long waiting list or whatever it is, even though they might be offering the same thing, it sells better, it's more desirable. I also think that a lot of these membership clubs are failing to deliver on that exceptional experience. They are creating beautiful spaces, they have a food and beverage program, they have a programming department, and it's all lackluster. The food is fine, you know, the programming is good. And if you're not going to create something really special and that's significantly harder than being exclusive, right? Really creating an amazing space that captures an atmosphere and creates an experience and you know, bring somebody fully present and spark something that actually affects their life is a significantly harder task than being exclusive. So if they're not managing to do the really hard part and not offering that exclusivity, that privacy, that discretion that that, you know, entrance into a really exciting social sphere, I don't know why anyone is going to keep paying for it when there are amazing restaurants in these cities. There are incredible hotel lobby that have great drinks programs that, you know, you can go to and not have to pay a membership fee for. Something I think So House did well in particular is almost democratizing or scaling exclusivity, right? Because when they first started out in the 90s, you know, they were specifically for people in the creative industries, like film and television. I mean, you know this, but as they, you know, grew, they took on institutional capital and then they eventually went public, you know, now the focus is less keeping a very tight-knit membership base and then instead, you know, like their membership fees are not cheap, like everyone knows that it's not cheap to belong to a So House. And so I'm curious as to your thoughts on how to scale that brand that is predicated on exclusivity and at the same time maintaining a level of prestige or a level of like the it factor that makes people actually want to wait on a waiting list or like want to pay like the, you know, the insane initiation fees/like membership fees. Two things. I mean, using So House is a great example. I think that when I was working at So House, you could feel that there were really two camps. There were the people that worked for Ron Berkel and there were the people that worked for Nick Jones. And although we all worked for both, there was that you could feel the difference, right? There are people who believed in the vision of Nick Jones who started this company, you know, decades prior and who really believed in the community and what those spaces could offer. And then there was, you know, Ron Berkel, who was this incredible businessman, Savvy Sharp can take anything and make it into, you know, a billion dollar empire. And he had a really different take. And I think that ultimately So House's success in scaling came in patience. I think that what they did really well is they stayed exclusive. They really sold that idea of community. They opened all the right markets for a long time before they sort of opened up the floodgates and had, you know, become this massive scale huge operation where we no longer look at So House as very exclusive. But it's been such a part of our social DNA for so long now that even though it's not selling exclusivity, first of all, they crush, they crush their programming department. And their membership program does work very, very well. The F&B is not amazing by any stretch of the imagination, but it's reliable, it's consistent and it's perfectly adequate for exactly what you need. And so they do a really good job at most of the things that make a great place. And I think that ultimately because they've been such a part of our DNA for so long, they've been part of our social sphere for so long now that they were sort of afforded this ability to drop the exclusivity act, really become a real estate company. And it was fine because at this point, So House's insurance, right? Even if you don't go to your So House, you don't want to get rid of that membership because if you randomly end up in Rome for the weekend or, you know, you're, you end up with a, you're breaking up with your boyfriend and you go on a date for the first time in five years and you've no idea where to go. You, you have that spot. You know, it's reliable. You'll get your Eastern standard. You'll have your same avocado toast, no matter what city you're in. You know, you can always pop in. You'll run into a couple of people you might know. It's insurance. And by the time that you realized you were no longer a part of this like ultra exclusive super cool brand new awesome community that was delivering on all the things in the most exceptional way, you were really dependent on it. And it became this like, well, what if I don't have a type of situation? So I think So House is such an amazing, an amazing example of how to scale the business. But I also don't think that it's, I don't think it's replicable. I don't think that, you know, they were, they did it first and they did it well and they did it in a behemoth kind of way. And I don't think we'll see that again. I also think when you start looking, I mean, in general, when you talk about scaling a membership club, it's sort of an inherently flawed business model, right? Where on one hand, your consumer, your, your, your, your member, your client, they want to see it get more and more exclusive year over year. And your investors want to see growth year over year. So you have these two very different objectives, just like budding heads at all time. And one, I think that going back to one of my original points of having the right team is huge because I can tell you whenever, you know, especially at SBB, for instance, we used to have these weekly meetings. And I would just go head to head with the general manager. And we would sort of just like, you know, I would fight for the member experience, which meant more exclusivity, less members, all the things. And he would be like, we have a business to run. We got to make money. And between those two people, because we respected each other and we understood each other really well, and we valued the other person's points, we were always able to sort of find that middle ground of what that looked like for us. And so having that team, that connectivity and investing in that team to be able to have those conversations, I think is really important. I also think that it's, it's on us, the hospitality company to figure out how to make money without burdening the member and not ruining the product that you sold them on. And it also makes it a lot harder for you if you are like, well, you know, whatever they become members. And now I just, I'm going to keep doing what I want to do to grow you over here and fulfill the promises to the investors because your retention rate will just suffer from it. And it's really hard to get new people all the time. You also start running out of great people very quickly. And so I think that it's, it's our burden to kind of come up with various different ways of seeing revenue streams come in, right? If you create a really amazing brand and you really honor the member experience, you have so many avenues at your disposal. I mean, again, using SUV as an amazing example, our members were so invested in the property that when we started doing collabs with, we did a sneaker collab with Karayuma, they sold out overnight. They crushed it. We did these cashmere sweaters that literally just plastered SVV across their chest. They sold out overnight. You know, and I think that if given the opportunity, now this is specifically speaking to the luxury sector, but I think that if given the opportunity, if I, if you went to your members, and you said, I'm just using easy numbers here, but let's say there's a thousand members currently, we can either increase your membership fee incrementally year over year and increase the cost of our cocktails incrementally year over year. And we'll keep this place exclusive. It'll be yours. It'll, it'll always be yours. Or you can keep your same membership fee and the F&B won't change, but we're going to double our membership, our membership numbers, or we'll add an extra 50% and getting reservations will be harder. When you walk in without a reservation and you just want to grab a seat between meetings, good luck finding a chair. The quality of community that we've promised you will suffer because of it. The different kinds of guests that are going to come in with those new members will also suffer in terms of quality, which when do you prefer? 10 times out of 10. They're going to pick the first option, right? And when you have a thousand members, you don't have to charge them an extra 50% of their membership fee. They don't have to see that jump. You charge them an extra two, three percent year over year and you're going to see that in your bottom line. And it's going to make hardly a difference to them. So I think that it's just about being creative and really respecting the experience. If you give somebody a product that they can't live without because you really made it amazing and you protected that experience, they'll go on that journey with you. They'll let you see your success via them because you're an integral fear of huge part of their lives. It's one of you say insurance because I had a friend who who actually called it a city tax, like having a so house membership in New York, like if you live in New York, it's like you need to have one or have really easy access to one because like it's just like a place. It's like a place that you know stops along the city for sure. 100% and that's just history, you know, and something you can't compete with at the end of the day. It's been around forever and they crushed. Now the state of where so house is today, it's interesting because people are like, oh well now the quality has suffered. Like, you know, what we were what we were just talking about. And you know, it's not the same. And it's like, well, yeah, obviously, like they are a public company, but at the same time, they are a company that defined or even created an entire category like an entire new business model. And that is that's really interesting. And it's cool that you got to experience that from from the inside. 100%. I love my time there. I love my team there. I want to talk about dining clubs because this is also something that we see popping up. So ZZ's just opened, I think like last week or a couple weeks ago, Kabir Kasby, Kosa Cruz, both, you know, London, Paris now opening in New York and LA. What are your thoughts on the insane fees to essentially have access to a restaurant and do you think this is a trend slash business model that's here to stay? There will always be a couple of people you can do, right? I mean, it's sort of we start with the Lensyago when they were like torching sneakers and then selling them for $2,000. And you're like, somebody bought it. They're making fun of you. You know what I mean? Like they're literally making fun of you because you were that person who bought it. It's sort of like they're making a mockery of fashion in that regard. And I think, you know, ZZ's is beautifully designed, amazing food. They actually captured an incredible group of people. The space in Miami was awesome. And I haven't been to the one in New York, but I've heard incredible things about it. Kosa Cruz, I think the pricing is is is one of those days where, you know, I think that right now it's so novel. And we're really capitalizing on this this extreme trend of membership and that conversation, that topic and the exclusivity and all the things that come with it. And we're still riding that post pandemic wave of how vital and important it is. But I do think it is a trend. I think that we're really starting to scratch the surface on craving nostalgia of craving an older time, a simpler time and easier time. I think membership, the word itself is actually starting to become a little bit of a dirty word. People start rolling their eyes now. And I think that's going to all catch up. It's sort of if the snowball is starting to roll down the hill. And I think, you know, great restaurants, cool restaurants have been doing this unofficially for decades, right? You know, you use men at a tavern as a perfect example. There are secret phone numbers and private emails and separate apps and all the things for regulars and important diners and BIPs and all the things to be able to access easy reservations and always guarantee themselves a table at these incredible establishments that to everyone else is an unbearably difficult and hard to get a reservation, right? Carbone's a perfect example where if you don't know the general manager's number, they're like, good luck. But if you do, it's easy getting a table and riding at a bucket time. And I think we're going to go back to that in maybe a more formal way. I think that the way that it's been done in the past pre the ZZ's and cost of cruises and all those things, I think that that was sort of done with like, okay, you had like a great majority or a great general manager who been with the restaurant for a really long time and they had their roller decks, they had their connections, you had their cell phone, you had their personal email and not just sort of flowed, but then the pandemic hit and we saw that when people went on furlough or when they decided to switch careers or when they left or they just decided it was time for them to finally retire with that person went the entire book and then you saw kind of, you know, you see cost of cruise popping up and and ZZ's and all those things and we're riding that wave, but I think ultimately we're going to go back to this idea of, you don't have to pay a membership fee, but you do have to have the secret number. You do have to have the interaction and you only get that interaction. And if you were, you know, a paying member somewhere else, we have to be accepted by being in that inner circle, you know, you just have to, if you know, you know, right? And I think we're, you know, already with inflation, the cost of living is so high, I think that we're going to keep seeing prices increase for, you know, general experiences. And I think that that's enough. I don't think that people will continue to to pay membership fees to to to dying, right? Now, if these other places start adding in various other components, then they might survive and they might totally flourish, but there are a million great restaurants in the world. And if that's all you're offering is food embedded rather just higher and amazing chef that comes to my house and have all my friends over and throw a party than pay to pay. I'm totally with you. Just by looking at the fees, because I think ZZ's charges like 50 grand for the first year. And it's like, okay, the number of people that can and will pay that is so small and they know that. And it's almost like what you were talking about like this, you know, knowing the GM and knowing the matriety and like having your favorite waiter who's been, you know, a waiter at Carbone for, you know, forever and like just having that feeling of being quote unquote accepted and like, oh, like, oh, the matriety knows me or like, oh, I know no problem. I can get a table at Friday at 8 a.m. No problem. I think they're trying to essentially sell that feeling. So it's like you don't even need to like spend time going to the restaurant and like making that relationship over time, you can just buy that feeling or buy that validation or like acceptance almost. Which, and you hit the nail on the head, I think, and this is like, again, this is like a New York thing, but we appreciated the cool kid growing up. We didn't care about celebrities. We didn't, you know, mean like, Jay-Z and Beyonce could walk by you and you'd be like, oh, like, well, I mean, you obviously appreciate their music, but you didn't care about it. Like, unless they were showing up and they were a great time and they were charismatic and they were commanding the room, like, you didn't care. And I think what's really interesting about what you just said is, you know, it's not cool to pay. It's not, if you can buy access, if you can buy your way in, the cool people don't pay. Right. And it's, you know, it's, it's sort of this thing where like, we, we as a society have this like really, really broken perception that like if you can afford, if you're wealthy, if you can afford these luxuries, if you can pay the $50,000, you know, initiation for whatever, then you're cool. You could not be more wrong, right? Most of the time, one of the biggest conversations that we're having at these membership clubs is, well, how do we tap into this like artist community or the creative community? Because those are the ones we're eating at the most successful artists, the premise of actually spending this money on a membership club or to die in a diner's club is just so laughable for them. And they're the ones that people actually want to spend their time around. They're the ones that people are trying to hopefully run into by paying this $50,000 membership. They just see those artists, those, you know, those younger, cool generations that are coming up on the up and up and that are making things interesting, those street kids that are coming in and, you know, take over a table in the back booth and just laugh hysterically and everyone's looking at it as these like gorgeous people. They're the ones you want there and they're the ones who are like, I'm not, this is just no thank you, you know, name me in. So, I think, you know, going back to what I was saying about these, you know, the private phone calls, the, the relationship with the general manager, that was earned, you know, name me in, you showed up, you had the charismatic attitude, you spoke to the staff respectfully. People recognized you because you would see them in other places and you were kind to them in those places. You did something of value of interest to your company or to your community, whatever it was. And you earned that access, right? And because you had it, it was, it was a, it was a genuine like, oh, shit, I did something pretty dope, you know, I must be something pretty cool. And I think we're yearning for that. I think we miss that real cool versus, you know, this, this paid cool. And I think we're, we're, we're going to start seeing things get walked back. But like I said, in a more defined, a more professional manner, now we have CRMs, you don't have to just depend on your general manager and his phone, but you can really kind of create a really beautiful experience unofficially and that feels organic, but that has a little bit of puppet string pulling to it. And so now with all the experience and all the insight that you have into hospitality generally, what do you think, or what, what are your three trend predictions for the future of the industry? Because it seems like we're kind of like at this crossroads where there's a lot of different things that could take off or dying or like, you know, some curiases to what your thoughts were. Okay, so you're going to think I'm actually out of my mind. But I, I want to preface the statement with, I think like nine or 10 years ago, I, my, my boyfriend and I were flying back from our summer in Europe. And we randomly, we had to stop in Lisbon for a night or some like that. And we ended up, we were like, well, we've never been to Lisbon. Let's just stay for two or three nights and see what that's all about. Nobody cares. Like no one goes to Lisbon. We went, this was 10 years ago. We went to Lisbon. We had the time of our lives. We were like, oh my god. The world isn't sleeping on Portugal, right? And like now having this conversation is comical because the whole world doesn't move to Portugal, right? But yeah, yeah, after those two days that we were in Lisbon, I, you know, we were on our plane, we were, we were flying home. And I was, I was just, I was like mind blown. I was like, how, somebody, I travel to Europe every single summer. I have gone, I make it a point to try and see new places and explore new communities and new cultures and all the things. How have I missed Portugal entirely? And so I just started reading about it. And I was reading about its economy and its tourism industry. And I just kept like all these things kept coming, these articles kept coming. And I looked at my, my husband was like, "Comport is about to pop off." And he's like, where? What? Who? And I'm like, it's this tiny little beach town. It's an exiled. It's like an hour and a half south of Lisbon. We like, as soon as we land, we've got a back on a plane, we got to go back, we're buying land, we're building a hotel and we're going back. And that was 10 years ago, I'm going to go ahead and say, I knocked that one out of the park. That prediction was right. So like, as much as this one's going to sound crazy, you just got to ride with this one with me. I really think the next trend is Albania. No, you're so right. I'm not even going to help you on that because like, I totally see that. I totally see that. It's trending on TikTok. Yeah. It's stunning. Something on TikTok, I swear the government is like throwing money into a rebrand right now. Yeah. And for sure, for sure. Within a couple of years, they're going to throw out some cool visa. They're going to get the digital nomads over there. They're going to get some artists over there. Some new tech companies in. It's beautiful. And then I know about, yeah, exactly. It's beautiful. The beaches are stunning. It is like you, like some of the videos that I'm seeing that are just like floating around social media. You're like, is this Bali? Like is this the Maldives? Yeah, totally. Where is this? And then you're like, it's in Albania. And you're starting to see very, very minimally, just like scratching the surface, so not even close to the final product. But you're starting to see some of the more local companies pick up on some of the bigger trends around Europe. And they're starting to develop their restaurants and their beach clubs and their hotels in a way that's a little bit more palatable to the sophisticated traveler. And I, I really think that Albania is going to pop. I think that it's going to be the next affordable destination with beautiful beaches. Great developers are going to come in there and make it awesome. It shouldn't be what to loom was if you, like, you know, 10 years ago or what Trenkoso was 15 years ago. So that's trend number one, I think. I also think, you know, we're starting. We're seeing a lot of industry adjacent companies start, start entering the industry, right? So like classes as well, for instance, which is an amazing to killer company. They are now, and during the hospitality space, they have restaurants, they have a tell coming up. I think they have a spa that they're working on. That's a really big deal, right? And I wouldn't even be remotely shocked if in a year at most, we hear the announcement that major food group is opening their first hotel, right? So I think you're going to start seeing these industry close businesses that are like, oh, well, I kind of do a lot of what overlaps within the hospitality industry. Like, let me just segue into this and like, take my experience here and sort of merge it. And I think it'll be really interesting. I think, you know, cost as well, I think is an incredible brand and the way that their thoughtfulness is actually so superb that even though they are historically a to killer company, I think that they will have a really easy time segueing into hospitality. We're seeing James Perse fashion, right? Who's now like segue into home and now he's got these amazing properties around the world that he's like renting out his luxury villas. And I think he actually working on a hotel, you know, him, I think from a design perspective, he'll crush from an experience perspective. No idea. No idea. I don't know if they realize it like a beautiful hotel is not, it doesn't stop at the design, right? Major food group, I think could do it. If they hire someone specifically that has the experience experience side of hospitality and not just rely on the FNB because it's so much more than that. I think especially when you talk about food and beverage, the truth of the matter is if you look some of the most like popular restaurants around New York Manhattan or like New York in LA, most of them have like, okay, food, great food, good food. It's not the best meal that you're having. It's good enough food in a really great on beyond space with a great crowd in the perfect location that's sort of a forward to spontaneity and all those things together make it the best, right? But people are willing to sacrifice food a little bit for atmosphere or they're willing to like go to a tiny strip mall in the middle of bump up nowhere. I don't know if I'll have to curse, sorry. But like, they'll be willing to go to a toilet ball. You know, a horrible hole in the wall on some random strip mall for like the best omakase of their lives. And they're really in the middle of the you know what I mean? So I think, but I don't think that you can have this like great food and like a meh experience. You got to like, you got to go one of the other. You got to be like, I'm all food or I'm going to crush both, you know? The third thing I'll say is I think the consumer is going to consistently keep wanting more. You know, we saw sort of this this really big shift which sort of opened the floodgates for boutique hotels where the consumer, the traveler was really looking for a more meaningful experience, a more thoughtful destination. And I think that that's going to keep growing. I think we're going to start looking at brands across all industries, but really specifically within the hospitality industry where we really rely on them to create those IRL moments for us. And we have a long list of demands. And I think that's going to keep getting longer. I think that we, we need it more, we crave it more. And with that need is going to come to watch. So I think it's you know, sort of like our our responsibility, but also it's our moral obligation. If you are in this industry, it is your job to fulfill those wants and needs. It is our job to get creative and pay attention to the details, think about those in between moments, and really deliver an exceptional experience. If people are taking time away from their families or their jobs, they're spending hard earned money, whether they are stopping by because they have a 24 hour layover or they're, you know, celebrating their 10 year anniversary or they're going away on a girl's shirt. Whatever it is, if people are coming and staying in your property or, you know, expecting something from, do an amazing job. Show up for them, you know what I mean? And, and it's not just creating an okay looking space with some decent food and, you know, whatever else. Like think about what along the day you can do to make someone just like smile and be like, oh, I impacted their day because they came and spent their day with me. You know, at the end of the day, the the rarest commodity that we have is time. The someone is coming to spend their time with you, engage with your staff, engage with your product and spend their money with you. Do right. Do well. Yeah. Do better. Do do an amazing job. Impact their lives somehow. I think this is so so so important. And it's like, I hope it's not just a trend and I hope it's something that stays because now as consumers, we have the world of options, right? Like we have like, you want to go to a boutique hotel in Ibiza. You have hundreds to choose from now that all look cool and like, they're chic and whatever. What differentiates them is, you know, the level of service. If people smile at you in the hallway or like, you know, if they know you by name, if you're there, like a repeat guest, I was actually thinking about this because this summer. So my boyfriend and I met in Ibiza, but I go there every summer. And there's this one hotel that I stay at that I won't name because like I was really disappointed with their with the experiences here, but it was exactly that. It's like, this is my, you know, third year staying at this quote unquote luxury hotel, but like it doesn't feel super clean. And like, you know, I have to like ask for things like multiple times. And it's like, you know, it's like those like small details matter. And it's like, okay, well now like, I'm not as willing to go back next year when I'm back on the island. Like I would rather go somewhere else where I know the small details are taken care of. And it's done with warm, then like the sense of hospitality. And I think it's like, it's so important now. And like the world of ever never ending choices that, you know, these places have like a really keen eye on hospitality above all. 100% and it's very certain thing. I mean, obviously like being clean, it's sort of like a fundamental and, and, you know, the, the physical aspect of it is sort of just non-negotiable. But I think, you know, it's so, there's so little, there's so many things that you can do. They're so easy to, to be hospitable, right? And like at the end of the day, that's why we're in this industry. And I think, you know, in all fairness to the people that work in this industry, I think very often, you know, especially when you're working a high, high volume restaurant or a busy lounge or a hotel that has a thousand people coming in for drinks, whatever it is, you know, you're interacting with so many people and so many personalities. And you're having very often similar conversations over and over and over again. And you sort of forget that each person is their own individual having that conversation for the first time, even though you had a 25 times that day. So for instance, you know, membership clubs very often, they don't allow photography inside their properties, right? And so the first time that you see somebody taking a photo, you're like, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, we actually don't allow photography on property. If you wouldn't mind just awaiting that and you know, keeping your phone off or whatever it is. Second time somebody happens, you're like, oh, so sorry, no photography. And then the third time in half is you're like, no photography. And it's, those are three separate people. By the time you're looking at that third person, you're like, no photographer, you're like, whoa. And you know, I can understand, you know, the server, whoever it is, that's enforcing that rule. They've had to say it 27 times that day and it's frustrating for them. But you have to treat each person as their own, you know, at their own individual. And so with that side, as far as delivering that experience goes, you know, just genuinely leading with hospitality and being hospitable to each person already goes a really long way, you know. And trying to say yes, just always starting with the actual attempt to try and say yes. Also, it was a long way when somebody comes to you and you're like, you know, they call the maturity and they're like, hey, you know, I'm running a little bit late. Instead of eight o'clock, I'm not gonna make until 830. And then the maturity like goes into full panning, oh my god, I'm not gonna change 17 different tables. I'm gonna give away your table. And it, you know, they're like, well, we just can't make that work. It's like, if you can't make a 30 minute change work, you're probably not good enough at your job at the end of the day. Because I have seen the busiest restaurants get a call from a celebrity at eight o'clock at night on a Friday and be like, hey, we're walking in at a table pops up. Right? You can do it. There are always little tetris ways of making it work. You can buy somebody to drink at the bar and keep their table running a few minutes too late. You can move things around. You know, it's always doable. And not always. There are obviously limitations and boundaries to what I'm saying. But if you just start the conversation with like, okay, let me first see how I can make this work. And if there's any possible way for me to do it for this person and go above and beyond, that's the industry you're in. And even though that might take a little bit of wiggling and you're busy and you got a juggle of funds or different other responsibilities, take the three minutes to do it. That's the industry we're in. Yeah, totally. Well, to conclude the episode, I always like to ask my guests for advice that they would give. So I think your domain of expertise is clearly membership. So I know that there are a lot of membership club entrepreneurs or people who are thinking of starting one. So what is your top, let's say, one to three pieces of advice for those who are thinking of starting a membership club, such operating one. Love it or leave it. It's probably my first piece of advice. If you are not, that's for hospitality in general. At the end of the day, there are industries where you can make a hell of a lot more money by expending, excelling a hell of a lot less energy. And you know, I think hospitality is an industry of passion and membership club specifically work. They demand a lot and they require a lot. And it's, you have as the owner of the developer, wherever part, you don't have one boss. You have 2000 bosses. However many members you have, that's how many bosses you had. You are constantly working for everyone's pleasure. And you also have really large teams that you have to manage. And you end up being a therapist a lot. And it's hard. It's exhausting. And you work, you know, 15 hours a day through Oscar season, Oscar week. And it's, you've got blisters on your feet. Somebody's throwing themselves through a glass door. You've got a million emergencies. You have to deal with it. That doesn't like really get your pump, your blood pumping for you. Then like jet bomb industry. You have to give a big part of yourself for this industry. It's an emotionally draining, emotionally taxing industry. And if you don't love it, if it really doesn't cause or create so much pleasure in you to create those memories, make somebody's day, have an impact on someone's life, build these faces. Then it's probably not worth it. It is not as lucrative as you think it is. On the flip side, I think I would also say, if you have decided that you love it and you want to go through with it, think about those little moments. You know, we've obviously touched on food and beverage and programming and design, and those are all those big things. But it's those little things that create such a massive difference, whether it be the scent in the room and how you leverage it, right? So actually using an example, we did this up, you know, at my wedding, where we had a signature scent. We decided that this one scent was going to be the scent that sort of created that nostalgic memory of our wedding. And we had stopped running through the entire property the entire weekend, spraying the scent. And then we sent everyone home with a little bottle of it so that whenever they smelled it, they immediately got to the music. So, you know, like, creating those little scents or worrying about that transition of the lighting when it goes from seven o'clock at night to eight o'clock at night and you want to get a little bit darker, a little bit moodier, a little, making sure that that's not a jarring moment, making sure that it happens really smoothly. And the sound, the music that's playing in the background, all of these things make such a huge difference. Before you know it, you know, you didn't just lower the the lighting and turn on a different playlist. You've turned somebody on, you've made them feel really cozy. You've made them really open to, you know, meeting somebody at the bar, whatever it is, whatever strings you're kind of pull, it's those little things that kind of create the biggest difference there. And just thinking about how you can leverage those little things to impact someone's day, you know, hotels do arrival ceremonies, turn down rituals, check out gifts and stuff like that. And those are really, really amazing little things that you can implement. But challenge yourself to think about like, well, how can I do that in a non-traditional way that hotels aren't already doing them? Think about the different little amenities that you can, you can offer to your guests and do it with intention, right? At the end of the day, I'm going to ran a little charge fee on my bed and saying it's a gift from us to you. You know, it's going to end up in the battle my bad broken by the time I get home. It's not going to, you know, whereas a non-gift, a little note card on my bed at the end of the day that says, Hey, we have on your artillery that you were going to spend a beach day tomorrow and go on a hike the next day. But based on the weather prediction that we've now looked up five minutes ago, the day after is going to actually be a better day. So we've got to hand switch that for you. You're going to do your hike tomorrow and do the beach day the next day because you'll get optimal weather for both of those activities if we switch them. I've to go ahead and take the liberty of doing that for you, but if you'd like to switch it back, just let us know and we'll handle it for you. But like that, you've just you've taken a burden off of me. You've enhanced my experience and you're looking at no cards. Like just think about those little things. Thank you so much for your time, Annabelle. This was such a fun and insightful and great interview. You are such a personality and it's so obvious to me why you're at hospitality and why you're so good at it. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you.