020 - Veroniek De Mulder (CEO & Board member)

Welcome to the Road to Angela, a podcast that young professionals and managers help on the road to success and success. By bringing authentic and recognizable stories of inspiring leaders. The unique thing about our concept is that we show our way through our talk partner. And as a kind of human writing, we come with every podcast a step closer. Hello listeners, we are here today in the beautiful Antwerp Symphony Orchestra in the Dirigentologe. Thanks to Verunik de Mulder, our guest speaker of the day. Hello Verunik. Good afternoon. It's great to be here. Maybe first of all for our listeners, would you like to introduce yourself? Certainly. I am Verunik de Mulder. I was born in 1950. In the meantime, I came from a warm family. I have also known some losses in my family. But I always find a lot of unconditional support and love. I am married to my best friend. We have been together for 28 years today. That's right. Thank you very much. It's very coincidental, at the beginning of the lens. So very symbolic. I have three very cool children. Really cool kids. And I hope that they will come to realize at some point how important they are for us, for me and my husband, and how beautiful they actually are as a person. I have seen a professional. I have taught as a teacher. Later, after my 40th grade, I did an additional study, in support of my father-in-law, who was very clear in the direction of general management. And those are the facts and the facts. And you also have your own business? Yes. Indeed, dimples, management, mediation and advisory. I am going to ask you why dimples. It's a nice meaning. Indeed. It could also be called ripples, but that is much less attractive. It has become dimples. Why dimples? It is actually the English word for colds. The idea behind it is that people with colds in their baths or they laugh with colds in their baths, that they have more pleasure in life. But also golf balls, which also have dimples. It is also a meaning that is used. They are actually the balls in a golf ball. And because of that, a golf ball goes further than the same ball that would be completely slippery. So actually, I always say it is for entrepreneurs, management, advice for entrepreneurs who are just that little bit different. Bart said in the intro, in the Konigin Elizabeth Saal, in the Loge, the Antwerp Symphonic Orchestra, a special location, thanks for being here. What does it mean for you? Or why did you choose this location? When I received the question for this interview, I didn't have to think about it for a long time. It is indeed a very beautiful, beautiful location. And for me, it also means a special person. But here, more than 40 years in the meantime. I came here as Peter, or rather, Clöter, and as a child with my parents. That was when the Kom concerts were held. And there were concerts that were actually held there to make young children know with music, with classical music. By the way, there is still time. Antwerp Symphony still has the KIT concerts today, which are an incredible success. I can only recommend it to those who are interested in it. And later, on my 12th birthday, I asked my grandparents, "What would you really like to do?" Or, "What would you like to have as a gift?" And I chose it for a piano concert here in the old Elizabeth Saal. I still know what I was doing. It was so important that evening for me. I came here with my grandmother. And yes, that's actually a piece. It's really in my DNA, this location. And six or seven years ago, I got the chance to go on tour. For me, that was actually making a piece of the circle. And then I also got to know the Antwerp Symphony Orchestra as an organization. I think I was very positively surprised by that. I got to know an organization here, which is really being guided very dynamically by the host, Joost Magermann. With the help of management, of involved people, who really look at the many facets of such an orchestra. Because what many people don't know, is that we, as a Finnish art institution, go much further than just concerts. We also do recordings, but we also have a very strong social engagement with all kinds of dance groups. And, yes, the target audience, who may not necessarily come into contact with musical culture, that's something that I'm really inspired by. Can you tell us a little bit more about that social engagement? Do you mean the orchestra, or in general? Well, we have a number of projects where our orchestras, so effectively in Antwerp's lower schools, are going to teach, where the musical instruments are also being provided. And you see that children in the lower school, just like I, go to the music school, are now a generation that gets a new chance. Meanwhile, that is absolutely not so self-sufficient. And you also see that it is very successful. Children then also at the end of their career have also participated in a concert like this. That's fantastic. That's really, that's really fun. And you actually feel that warmth from the stage. The parents are then also in the audience, who find it much more difficult to find their way to our performances or to our concerts. Yes, it's magnificent. And Veronique is in several meetings of support. One of the questions that Tom, Tom Wilhelm, gave us through, because it is of course Tom who brought us to you. Oh, and he has also given questions through. He has also given questions through. He's very serious. I didn't know that beforehand. The catch was also there. Okay, I'm curious. Let me come. Yes, one of the questions that he asked was, "You actually sit in various meetings of support. Is that mandate? How does one mandate differ from the other? How does your role differ from the other?" Yes, that's a good question. We had to listen. A compliment for that. Yes, of course, you can see in the steering wheel of the expertise and skills, the competencies that you bring with you. In my case, it's that general management. I'm a generalist. Maybe we'll go further on that later. But that makes me notice a lot in the steering wheel that my contributions to organization, forming and organization management. I also close my vision of the function of the steering wheel. I think a steering wheel should be a soundboard for management. A steering wheel that is strategic, that looks ahead, that also looks at corporate governance and can really be a guide for the CEO and for management. If you have a steering wheel where the drivers individually go micromanaging or wake up when it's about their theme. Someone is talking about HR, someone is talking about marketing. "Ah, I know something about IT." These are things that are important and that are more valuable. But I think that the whole of the steering wheel is mainly about giving direction to the soundboard to an organization. My contribution is that in that area, in the different mandates, it can be very similar. Of course, it can be different. One, the one steering wheel, sometimes differs in style or in the culture of the others. Those who run more formally, those who run more informally. But that also makes it very boring. And how is it now set with the Belgian steering wheel? Are they all working together at that level? That's a very big question for a small person. I can't really say much about that for the Belgian landscape. What I can say, I can speak for myself from my own experience. My mandates are currently not in native companies. I have always been active in the public sector and in the private sector, mainly in the KMOs and family companies. Now, in the public sector, I think that this has happened. I think the idea of independent drivers and a diverse combination of steering wheels has effectively been developed. You can see that the discussions we have are always valuable. I always feel that I can contribute and that it is useful. And I also see that movement at KMOs. The first generation of companies often start with an advisory council, often a step-up to a full-fledged steering wheel. But I still see that there is a lot of movement and that it is seriously involved. Absolutely. How do you choose your mandates? Of course, you are there for candidates. So the organisation chooses you for a piece. But let's say that I really have a sense of love for sectors where... I don't know what I'm going to express, but hard sectors, infrastructure works, mobility, logistics, development, that are things that I have been working on for the past 25 years. I have also grown in operational functions, as has been my professional teaching path. So I do have the desire to look in that direction. A lot of organisations that are in transition or in movement. I think that's very important. As a CEO, I also had the opportunity to reorganise the organisation of a company, the first generation of companies, and really focus on it. And I do notice that this is what interests me, what interests me. So there I will look for it. And then of course you have Anthroposymphony, but that has been love at first sight. Tell me, what is your biggest talent? My biggest talent? Also in the light of the different mandates that you take up within Dimples. My biggest talent? I don't know... What strikes me is that you are actually a teacher of education. You also say, OK, I am actually very happy for those hard sectors. At the same time, I see someone here today with a first feeling, especially in terms of identity, a whole human race. I actually want to become Anthroposymphony. I don't know what the talent is, but I am a spoken-up human being. I actually keep in mind the life and the people who are in it. I am also grateful for all kinds of people that I can meet. So I think, yes, what I always keep in mind as a red wire, that is, for me, a company, an organization, always about people and processes, about actually getting the best out of each individual, on the one hand, but at the same time also looking for synergy between people. And I think that you can do that everywhere. I have already said it, I am a generalist, and I have a lot of respect for expertise. I also think it is very nice and enriching to deal with people who are smarter than me, who know it better in their field. But I also take my motivation from the connection and from the width. Okay, that is actually, we have talked about your talent. Do you also have a, what is your most important role model? My most important role model. I give, I like to delegate, what I just said, I really like it, and very fulfilling to see people evolve and grow around me. So I like to delegate, I have a lot of trust, and with a serious dose of patience, but it is so that I, and I have learned that over the years, I have two enormous allergies. And in the same way it is very handy, if you know what allergies you are, because you can apply that, then you can deal with it, and then you can react that wave, to respond to allergies every time, you can avoid that perfectly. And allergies are actually, on tip number one, are actually people who are always in the battle role. It will not surprise you, with what I just said, I believe very much in, in the power of the people, and what it is, that you can really get out of it with the right context, with the right will. And if I come across people who are in the battle role, and overcome it all, and it is sad, then I can sometimes react very sharply, so that's something I have to avoid. I also have the same people who disagree on something. And then I don't mean that at all, because I think that allergies are absolutely strange to me. I think that allergies and happiness are very difficult to reconcile, and I have chosen for happiness for a long time. But especially those non-material people, who disagree on something, for example, power or status, that is difficult to deal with. I expect from people, that they are effectively authentic, and that everything is in there, in there, in there, that doesn't make me look good. I have always, myself, in my own way, looked for managers who looked good, who I could learn from, and who were also very open and transparent. So that is also something that I sometimes struggle with. Someone who feels that in me, because it is of course very relative, or someone who feels in my perception or in my own way, who knows himself as a certain status or a certain power, that I dare to get out of there verbally, or that is what I think, that is what I think. I think it is a challenge to talk about that in a good way. I will hear it diplomatically. We see here, we hear a person, who is very aware of what allergies are, what talents are, have you always been aware of that? Have you always been aware of that this is important to me, that I don't get energy from here? No, absolutely not. And how did you come here to discover that? I saw professionally a child from the nineties. I graduated in the second half of the nineties. At that time, I really came from the school bank. I was also the first in the first ten years of my career. I worked at multinationals. So those are really extremely fertile soils. The sky was the limit for what concerns self-replowing, training. It was really unbelievable. And I was lucky to start very quickly a Myers-Briggs analysis to find out if it works or not. And when I was three, twenty-four years old, that was really a great achievement. And the fun part of it is that ten years later I did something else in my professional context. What I was involved in was that my personality was the same but that years in my experience I had a number of sharp points and I was nuanced. And it depends on how I think. In that way, I am more aware about it. Another point that made me aware was that I had a lot of time to work in different business cultures. I worked in a corporate context for ten years, multinational and international. And after that, I had a sharp point where I worked in the Dutch government. It was something unconscious. During the solicitation I talked to myself that I was going to ask for help. I came home and my whole family and friends were asking for help. I thought, that's not going to work. It's not going to start. You're going to die slowly. I got that kind of reaction. But there was an organization that for a long time was the idea that the government had to put their hands in the air and put their budgets in. I would visualize it like this. The idea came under pressure. And a number of the services' functions of the Flemish government and at that moment I spoke at the beginning of the year 2000. A little later. A number of the services' functions of the government were self-employed. I came to a self-employed agency that for the first time had to provide their own tools. Indeed. That made it a huge challenge for a commercial department to start. I worked there for ten years. I also had the chance after the commercial department was in the real world to make a huge fusion of two public businesses. So it was also a political policy decision to add a few rationalizations. That process was very useful from the direction of functions. Also, the difference in culture between the corporate world and the public sector made me rich. It gave me a very different look at things. It is also in that period that I am a postgraduate and go around conflict management because I came from the private sector towards the public sector and was constantly shocked by it. It was that I went as an employee to the company and I was really confronted with a tension as I had never experienced before. At some point, it seemed literally that the private sector and the public sector spoke a different language. Then I started looking at how to deal with that. Then I came back to mediation. In the Netherlands that is much further. There is also a lot of interaction between government and private companies. But in Belgium that did not exist. There was also interaction for social issues. That is often the interaction you sometimes see at big shutters. But actually in government-related matters it did not exist. Together with two other members of the KU Leuven I developed a postgraduate form in the defense of the private faculty of the KU Leuven. It still exists today. In the Netherlands it still exists today. I eventually studied in my postgraduate form. I did not do that. Then I finally recognized as a federal mediator. But it was more than 10 years ago. This year it was 10 years ago. So 10 years later there is this interaction postgraduate mediation in government-related matters. It is also recognized by the government-related committees. And you also see that it starts to live very strongly. That is only one aspect because later we have to come back because your original question was how are you now until that awareness has come and the nuance of your own person. My second answer was the different business cultures. And I later could use the third culture that I was able to experience. That is the culture in the Kaimo world. The family business. So after the Flemish government and after the fuses I actually took over. So I was asked by a first generation founder of a business to lead as a CEO. And I went there. I did that for 5 years. And then again on a completely different vibe completely different culture. And on new a lot of fulfillment was taken out. A lot of contacts were made with the employees, with clients, with suppliers, with the whole context of such a family business. That was really fantastic. And then there was the environment that was really important. Because at the time of the environment I was there as an engineer for the first time with aspects of communication science, psychology, pedagogy, but also a bit of justice. And that brought me back to the 40th that added education and in that way I was one of those very grateful teachers. And every time I go around the circle taking the next step I get motivated I get passionate and then I go back to the next step. So the challenge did work out, right? Yes, if I tell myself then it seems like my mother used to say "I don't understand that question. It's hard, it's hard." That's how it is. And I would definitely pick that up. Even if it's about your allergies you are very positive and it gives you a lot of ground for a lot of positivism. You try it. You tell about that, you have to say it with a certain "E" side. It makes absolute sense how you experience it and tell it. But I can also imagine that it has been easy. No, absolutely not. That's right. Also the combination with everything outside. So of course I tell only one aspect today and that is the profession. But there have really been moments where the professional was the real enjoyer and the mother. But that is of course the choice you make. And I have always felt very pleased with that. I have never experienced when I don't need it to go mountain biking or to go cycling on Sundays. People sometimes ask "How do you do that?" All those different balls in the air. It seems almost impossible. For me it is very simple. I watch TV and I don't do sports. Not done, of course. Not done. But you have to tell how many hours a week you will be holding on to it. It adds that I have always been greatly supported by my real enjoyer. And that we have always met our children. And yes, together that is a team effort. I keep saying that we are doing that for each other. We are a team of five. And we try to support each other in the phase of life that we are. When we are married we say to each other We are not married to each other. And that is something we really want to live. Of course we also had a bit of luck that in our professional walking lanes there was some kind of detachment. The moments when my husband jumped I was in a stable period or reversed. But there were also periods that we came together. There were also periods that the children came to the office after school. And when they did homework at my office they always asked me for a lot of advice. They always experienced that especially to do that. I also took them to meetings that they indeed in a part of the room or in a office next door. And I always told them what I was doing and what I was doing there and why. I think you should ask yourself if you appreciate that. I also always very clearly had two rules concerning professional life and private life. And that is when the children were small from 6 to 8 I was always at home. My employer allowed me to work for 22 hours a day but between 6 and 8 was the only moment for small children that you have quality time with your growth. So that is something I really wanted to try to live. And secondly, I always took the phone as one of my three children. I sat in meetings with ministers where the phone went and I answered with "hello" with "mama". That is non-negotiable for me. Sometimes I had strange situations when I had a phone or I had to take a weapon out of the closet and I said to myself "this is such a sacred word" and I never knew but during that time it was a crucial question for me to answer the phone. Maybe you had a few calls when they were ringing. Yes, absolutely. But sometimes I had a phone because my daughter had a accident on the street. So I think that is very clear in perspective. Yes, I also notice that you are also in the beginning of the conversation. There are a lot of important things to see but there is quite a lot of room for losing. Can you tell us more about that? I think that in all families there is a lot of room and we have been in our family for a very long time but in the short term I have lost my mother as well as my great-grandmother. And that is because there were two figures that were really important to me and still are. Was that a critical moment? Now you may ask me if I have learned something by looking at it. No, absolutely not. If I have learned something from it I have always been an optimist. So it has not changed. I have a kind of very healthy relative realism about that. And that makes that I can go on with it. Also a bit of gratitude that I am no longer there only because of how they have contributed to who I am and that I really have received a lot from those two great-grandmothers. I think that is very rare to say but when my mother died then it was very sudden, very unexpected. And we are as family with my father, my brother, my sister but also with my own family with men and children. We can go on. And I am really convinced that that is her legacy. She has made that we are the people we are and that is effective in a very healthy way and very supportive to each other and that is how we can go on with it. That is her legacy. Just a moment. Yes. Maybe something to overthink. You are getting a little silent. Yes, we have that sometimes. That is nice. But maybe to a general question we notice the listeners of our podcast often talk to people between the 30s and 40s between those periods where you notice that everyone at that moment in his life is very difficult. You are working hard you have to present very hard when you have children young children where you have to be a lot of them. Is that for you too? Because you are there just before, I think. Is that also a difficult period for you and have you maybe tips from your own experience how do you deal with it? Maybe a lot. Have you ever known a moment when certain thinkers maybe start to think that maybe in a different way you have started to look or you have started to search? Have you ever known that moment? No, I have to explain it to you. I have to explain it to you. I am actually I have just said it. I have been running in the beginning that 10 years later I have been quite consequent. So no, I don't have big moments where we throw everything around. But I... No, that doesn't fit with who I am. Say, the analysis that you have done in my talks you say to yourself, I am ready where you have learned at that moment. Can you tell a little bit more about that and maybe also make the link with those pieces that we have made up? Yes. Then 10 years later? Yes. Now, if you are going to ask people about how is Veronica actually? I think that you will hear one thing or I think that will be very analytical structured, analytical, goal-oriented. If you are going to ask people who have worked with me I also think that you already said the same thing. Don't surprise me a little bit. But I am also a child as an optimist. Optimist, without prejudices. It is something that is always with me. I have ever read somewhere on a wall I have to keep it. It is an expression that says not what we are doing does us up or down but our way of looking at it will enrich or enrich us. If my children hear this they will laugh at me. They have already heard it. It is one of my life lessons that they have already heard just once in a while. Maybe I should make a note of that. But that is something that I really like. And it also goes with the fact that I really believe in what I just said the individual competencies and the good will of people and the synergy that can work between people. So that is something that I like. I think that a lot of people will also say that I am very reluctant as a manager. I can't deny that. That is right. I am reluctant for myself and I am also for others. I like that the things when they are done well are done well. I will do that with the soft hand soft but not indecisive or with the necessary courage I will say it like that. In a in a in an expression Rumi once said or wrote Persian poet Philozof and he said "Race your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder." And I find that constantly powerful. And I have the experience or if that is something that I have noticed you don't have to notice that you are there. It is much more powerful that people notice that you are not there. And that is something that I don't like. Because I really try to make sure that people where I can work together that yes, that they are actually certain teams where I have worked together they actually have to be perfect without myself my work is off as that if they can continue once again. I absolutely do not have all wisdom than I think to be able to recognize that in a different way but not only recognize but also recognize and then that people also have space when you have the foresight to be able to control that kind of people then I think that is only respectful and very careful with going around and then you see what happens almost always very outstanding things, but with falling and upstanding. It is not a naive, rosy human story It is about falling and upstanding. How do you create that? How do you create that within your team? The fact that you are no longer needed the fact that people know what is expected of you that is a good question I think that I am a part of that in your evolution I am a child a professional child of the 90s that was a time of the self-managing teams it all had to get up get up and I have also been there for a long time to trade and certainly as a young professional when I was around 20 to 30 I was really fed up with that and I had already heard that on the school banks of you are the next generation You are going to do it like I said, I studied in high colleges from the school banks so it really couldn't be that the world was on our feet and that was the first year and that also makes that you actually step in that culture and take risks and in fact you are already facing the wall and then learn again and now with then actually to evolve further in my course and then of course to take up first-line management people management I also realized that it has been a very personal project and that that absolute freedom and let us brainstorm and let us freewheel and then we all come together my experience now 25 years later is there still something different in that today I would say people need transparency people want transparency and people also want a bit of leadership people want a manager who knows who is behind me or who is next to me at times of success but also at times of disappointment or less less positive experiences and I think if you give those two things in combination with space to develop that you then welcome to the positive effect that you really the lowest out of a team of professionals can get Yes I want to not pick up you have already learned everything to be a manager for 25 years the manager you see today at the beginning is there a certain advice or a certain type of try to do that for sure free from the one you have now I think yes advice I think that's something difficult because of course everyone is different but I would definitely say look at where the opportunities are and understand don't be afraid to make mistakes if you do something you will be passionate about it absolutely also look for environments where you can really grow, where you can flourish I have always kept the principle that a request that was two directions wrong I always thought that I had to go to the other side of the table to decide if they want me or not at the club I have never talked to a request in that way that was my complete fear I really thought that was a equality for me it was the job on the other side of the table also as a solicitor and I think that's really important look for environments where you yourself can be where you can grow I think that's really important that's not just an excuse but that comes from the first experience I had at the beginning of my career that was a side point before I realized that I had a side point I will tell you that briefly and I was in my last year I was able to sign a contract and being able to sign a contract and being able to sign a contract I was 100% sure that I had done that I was in my last year and my premise was to get out of it as soon as possible and do something with marketing that wasn't a success because in that time marketing was a very hot topic and there was at every solicitation about 20, 30, 40 studied marketing next to me so I said look, are you going to throw that over another book I'm going to participate in a kind of case study weekend and those were five multinationals and they had a case made up they were able to solicit from hundreds of solicitations a number of students were chosen per company and they were allowed to do that in a luxury hotel that was incredible they were allowed to solve that case completely surrounded by HR people and a number of psychologists a number of business people of the company you can already hear it so I asked for it and out of all those candidates I was chosen to do that case for Procter & Gamble and so I was sitting on that weekend with ten on that case and so the price of that weekend was actually that the best student actually got a job offer offered at the end of that weekend I won that competition and I got a job offer I was incredibly happy with that I was also in the newspapers I took photos there fantastic it wasn't that I still know that it was December 6 of my last of my graduation year and a few months later I got a phone it's a pity but it's a bit annoying news we're going to offer that job offer we're not going to be able to give it to you I was actually appointed as junior product manager so I had exactly achieved what I wanted I was far away from the debt and I started in FMCG fast moving consumer goods in the marketing and in my head but it wasn't like that because they were behind and that there was a floating system somewhere so that they could get a job as junior marketing or junior product manager and in the policy of then it was impossible it had to be someone with an education economy or trade I know a lot so, unfortunately the job went to number 2 and I got an alternative offered in the lab that was of course for me that was the hell that was for me a waste the idea of getting lost in a lab that didn't work at all now I had at the beginning of the year that was also listed at other companies and then the competitor of Proctor contacted me and they said you can start with us as sales engineer a bit of a compromise between engineering and sales then I now went 10.000 Belgian francs for a huge amount of money but they did my manager country manager but they said if you perform well then I will write you in the Hippo program Hi-potential program worldwide and then you can continue and within 5 years you will have doubled your salary I say but I will mark there and I will give you my SOT so I did that and that's how my job began and within 5 years I doubled my salary and I had a huge nice start but that's actually as I said a side moment without realizing it but there I have a very important lesson learned that is to find places where you are rewarded and where you can really get that the mindset of a company is the same as yours yes exactly it was a very nice one a question that was already hanging out with me without allowing me to hear it very well again you mentioned the word "definition" the importance of "definition" more and more I know that you also give advice also in family context in a world where there is less and less clarity more and more ambiguity how do you support organizations to go beyond that also on a strategic level there are a few elements in your questions but if I click on that clarity I notice that it is very difficult for people to communicate with each other the world is complex but at the same time very fluid there is also no time to talk about things with each other and as a mediator so a very nice definition of what a mediator is it is someone who facilitates other people's negotiations I am also convinced that you can take that step to the conflict or the mediation in what context if you have a strong base in negotiations and negotiations can in many contexts in many situations whether it is between a leader or between shareholders of a company a leader in a CEO or between two colleagues or in what context that clarity is not just about itself I can say people need clarity and you can add the thinking if I am direct enough then they will understand but that is not the case often people ask for some guidance to make certain things clear conflict can be avoidable but conflict can also be solved in both situations maybe there is clarity that can be something that is not clear at that moment yes we cannot know everything what can happen yes that is correct but it can also be broken and it can also be something where leadership takes place I am thinking of a situation between manager and worker when I go into conversation with managers I often see your role as leader consists of three big fundamentals coach, manager and leader you will see that most of us will play the role of nature for one of those three roles but the idea around leadership is just that you are next to a natural role also a part of your role so that you can really fully absorb those three fundamentals in leadership and depending on the situation you are in or the person with whom you are creating the one or the other or the other fundamentals more pressure, there will be moments where your team gives you more need as a coach or an individual member of the team gives you more need there are other moments where you really need to correct and say "I am taking the lead now" and this is the way we are going to follow the part of your manager is something that by young leaders you often have the option to keep your project manager while when they make the promotion or the step to team leader or team manager you just have to step off of your project manager but you have to start your team manager what does it all mean? keep in mind that you can connect with each other that you are the right man or woman and that you are the right man and that you are the right man and that you are the right woman and that you are the right woman and that you are the right man and that you are the right woman and that you are the right man and that you are the right woman and that you are the right man and that you are the right woman and that you are the right man and that you are the right man and that you are the right woman and that you are the right man yes, that's right so you have to do it there are very few who see that all three of them are not the only three I can tell you more about that but that's not the topic of today but those are the three for me the three fundamentals depending on the example if you look at that role in family KMO you can come back to those different cultures where I have been in the past to participate in a family KMO you are going to be there very quickly also as a fourth pillar as an entrepreneur a family KMO needs to be a leader also as an entrepreneur in a public environment maybe that will be less maybe that will be more medium-sized because you are sitting there with a number of exciting fields between very different actors and in a corporate situation that can be something else that can be more about inclusion or diversity management yes, that's good maybe a topic for our short version indeed maybe one last question in this conversation can you answer it, Patrick? can you answer the question I want to hear it can you answer it I think that's a strange question but you already knew it I think that's a strange question because I have said it several times I believe so firmly in opportunities take opportunities and effectively work on yourself and on your surroundings even the first stone for me it's a dream even if it's something very frustrating or even if it's an unrealized wish or if it's something unrealistic but I think it's a strange concept because you really are from the judgment take it firmly in the beginning to really inform yourself take it firmly in the beginning you see where you come out and yourself when you break the three times you go under the four times there is only one way and that is ahead and that can indeed be with blood and bubbles that is talking about yourself but that may not be against you then all these things are equal and I also combine with what you are going to say and also be conceivable for example what there is today but then the last question what would you like to leave? since no world peace or a green planet that's not a mistake no, it's not a mistake I I hope that the people who have known me will have something to do with it and that it is the only thing that I can extend and I find it very ambitious and not much to discuss but yes, I must say maybe, maybe that will that may be due to someone had something on my passage here and that may not mean much they will say that is really an oracle of Delphi someone else who has done it to me how it doesn't have to but yes let us formulate it positively that it has been meaningful in which sense that it could have meant a dimple that's beautiful yes, exactly everything will be okay in the end if it's not okay, it's not the end voila more adventures in episodes via LinkedIn or www.TheRoadToAngela.be