02 – Game – Playing the Game

[music] Welcome to Improv, beat by beat. I'm Curtis Rutherford. I interviewed 24 different improvisers and then edited together chunks of those interviews to investigate different aspects of Improv one piece at a time. This is episode 2, game. [music] In the previous episode, we talked about how to establish a game, framing a game so everyone in the scene agrees on what the game is, and then justifying the game so it feels real and playable. This episode is about the rest of the scene. You've set a game with your scene partner, now it's time to play it. First up, Alex Dixon talks about how she first started to understand a game. We had been talking about how she had originally trained in Chicago and as an actor, how she viewed framing and justification in terms of believable characters. I think in Chicago I didn't know what those words were at all. So I just, and I also was like a socially anxious 23 year old, so a lot of it is a blur. Right. But I do remember having shows in Chicago where I knew they didn't go. I remember thinking, "Oh, maybe I've reached the point where I can't do this anymore." I don't know what's fun. I felt like I ran out of stuff and I do think that UCB helped me to be able to like leave a scene and be like, "Well, yeah, of course that scene was tough because I didn't have a point of view about that." Or like, "I hated everyone in my scene. That's terrible." Or whatever it is. You know what I mean? Whereas in Chicago I don't think I have that vocabulary. So at UCB I think, I do think I probably, when I started taking classes here, that piece made sense to me. I didn't have to think too much about it probably because of acting school. Because I don't, there are certain things that I definitely remember struggling with and I don't remember struggling with if this is true or what else is true or maybe justification because they can have go together. And I think that probably is just like character work from acting school. But I didn't think about it until you just said that. For me it was like learning that basic thing of game. Of just like once they said like, "This is game, this is what we're going to do." It was like that clicked for me. Oh, this is what I've already been trying to do and I just didn't have that vocabulary. Yeah, that's what I always say to people. I'm like, you can take classes at like any improv theater. No one else is saying the word game. But every good improv scene at any theater is playing game. Because when I think back to like my final level at Second City, because Second City is like we're doing improv to create sketch. Final level of the conservatory is just going to class and doing improv sets and then our teacher/director at that point going, "Cool, here's what was really fun about that is the way he'd say it." And then he'd be like, "Let's do it again, but like hit that stuff harder." And I remember thinking, "Oh my god, he's so brilliant." Like I, I wouldn't have never, like I remember doing a scene and thinking it was a terrible scene. And then he was like, "Here's what was fun about that scene now, let's do it." And I remember just being like, "I can't believe he could isolate that. That's amazing." He was just saying this was the game of that scene, but he didn't use that word. So then when I started taking classes here, I was like, "What's game I don't understand?" And then I remember it and I was like, "Oh, I've been playing it. Now I'm just learning how to like be like that." Yeah. We're doing it right now. That label of what was the fun thing. I feel like a lot of us use that anyways when we talk about games. Especially with any level where they're more hesitant about game or just like, "No, you say game." But then it is. It's just, "Oh, you did that thing. It was fun. Keep doing that fun thing." Right. Yeah. I do think saying game, like people just freeze. I didn't. I did. But so, yeah, I tried to say like, "What was the fun thing or what was the thing that you were doing?" You did it a few times because you thought it was fun. They're like, "Oh." But it is. It's so heavy. And then not heavy at all. Yeah. I always say that I'm like, "Inbred so easy and it's impossible." There is that level you mentioned with the Chicago thing of where it feels like I can't go any farther. And I feel like so much of it is just like, "We hit our natural kind of ending point and then we need those tools to push past that." And yet for me, it was much more the acting side of like, "Oh, I can't think any faster. I can't be any funnier. I've gotten as far as I can with that. Right now I need to keep stealing from all these teachers and from UCB classes." Yeah. And like, dig into the emotion and the character more. Yeah. And I think too, like, the fun, the thing for me about doing that is that then I feel like when that happens, you get to do that fun thing where you surprise yourself. Because if you're really like, if you're really playing a character that's pissed and you're just letting stuff come out of your mouth, you're definitely surprising your scene partner. But you're surprising yourself with like, "Oh, I didn't know. I was going to say that." And then it suddenly becomes more fun because you're not writing the scene. Which is what I thought when I first started using UCB, I skipped 101 because I did IO in Chicago. So I started at 201 and they were talking about game like I was supposed to, which is, it's sort of crazy to me that they let me skip 101 because I'm like, "Do you guys know what the class is?" I don't know what these words are. And I remember thinking, "Oh, I guess I can't improvise in New York because I don't know what's going on." I really was like, "Oh, you have to be a sketchwriter." And I remember, I went up to Ryan Carl's after a class once and I was like, "So, premise-based improv means that you know the scene before you do it." And he was like, "What?" And I was like, "You're on the back line and you know the whole scene." And he was like, "No, it's just improv." And I was like, "No, it's not." It made no sense to me. But then I got over it. But I remember it first just being like, "Oh, this isn't fun." And it's not surprising you know what it is. But I think that that's just 201 is that's kind of the place you have to go and then get out of it. But it scared me. And I think a lot of people at that level do have that feeling of like, "Oh, I need to come in with everything with a premise other than just like, no, I need to have the premise." And then we build it together. I just need the initiation to be pretty clear. And then we'll see what happens. And then after that, well, when everything's invented past that. That was Alex Dixon. Now here's Lydia Hensler. We've been talking about the pitfalls people fall into when they're learning game. And then when I think when people get game and they're like, "Oh, I get it." The biggest thing I find is just not resting it. So that and the thing I always say about that is it feels like there's, when that happens, you might do a perfectly mathematical like version of heightening. But the resting is where I feel like a lot of the exploration comes from. And it's really important to have that explore and heighten. Because then it feels like your three game moves actually only feel like one game move. Because they happen right on top of each other. So we didn't get away from it. And also the audience is probably ahead of you by the time you get to the third one. There was, it was like an interview that like, I think Roger Ebert did with Miyazaki who did like, "Spirit it away," and Princess Mono, "Okay." I'm like, "All these like, uh, anime movies." And he talked about how Ebert was like, "I love the pacing of your movies." And he said, "Well, it's like a clap. The sound of a clap isn't the smack of your hands. It's everything leading up to it." And I try to build in that pause of hands going apart and then back together into my movies. And games sometimes feel like that of like, "Oh, it was just, and you needed that like, and then clap sound." Yeah, you got to rest. And it's so fun too. Because I feel like the scenes that are always the most fun are when you're like surprising yourself even of how you're getting back to the game. Because once you know game, you know that like that sort of your mission for the rest scene is like, "Oh, I'm going to keep exploring and hiding this funny thing." So if I like really allow myself to get away where I'm resting in, I always have one eye on the game. So like, I'm always looking for my way back. So it's so fun to find like how I shoehorn myself or like, wind my way back. And then you get to like have this whole other thing that you're doing. And make those moves that wouldn't have happened if it were that textbook. Yeah. Game of one, Game of two, Game of three. And that's like the magic of improv, right? Like I remember somebody saying, uh, maybe it was Eugene. And Cordero, I think he was coaching us. He was talking a lot about playing lava. Like, I think we use that a lot. Like when you're little kids and you throw all the couch cushions on the floor and you're like, the floor is lava and you jump on a couch cushions and you believe it so hard. And his, he would bring that up for like, um, he would talk about that in terms of commitment. Like committing so hard, like really believing it. Um, but I think what's really fun is that, uh, when we're talking about discovery and stuff is like when you, when you buy into something so hard and you're like, uh, then it's, uh, you'll surprise yourself. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then that's the magical part. Like I remember him saying, uh, like just do the thing and it's like, oh, well, if your head is writing the scene, you can't see how you'll get to the end if you go do that weird thing. But if you do that weird thing, like that's improv. He's like, oh, what do you have to do? You're going to improvise. You don't know, right? It's like we can't keep creating safety nets for ourselves. Right. The safety net is that we know how to play games, so then go be brave and do weird things and see what happens. That was Lydia Hensler. Now Lydia mentioned safety nets and on the previous episode Sebastian referred to a similar concept as adding tape to his basketball hoop. Basically, don't be precious about the scene. Don't play it safe. Here's more from Sebastian Canali. And I also think that so I talked about base reality instantly, but I think base reality could be fun. Yeah. So people don't have fun with base reality. In the beginning, I get like you're trying to learn how to do the work. You're trying to throw a throw down up. Here's the who, what, where? But after a while, like, if I'm gonna play a little kid and that's gonna be the normal part of the scene, I'm gonna make the little kid specific and I'm gonna have fun being a little kid because I'm a grown-ass man. (laughing) Like, I don't get to be a little kid every day. I don't get to be a teacher. So I'm gonna like try to play that as specifically and embody that character. So everyone in my mind is like a character in a way. - Watching you that becomes very apparent that even when you're a background character, it's always a specific character. - Yeah, and I've had to adjust and reel that in to make sure that it's a normal specific character. - Right. - Right, but in my mind, there's no reason why you can't be getting laughs on bass reality too. - Yeah. - Especially if you're advanced level. - Right. - There's no reason why you shouldn't be getting laughs because I also think that you, like, if the unusual thing is happening a bunch, you usually get a big laugh when you return to the bass reality because you're reminding the audience of why that is so funny, what's happening. 'Cause I find a lot of times people only play the unusual thing. They find it and that's all they ever play. And so then all of a sudden, if all you see is the unusual thing in no bass reality, we forget why that thing was unusual to begin with. So I always like to go back and forth between the bass reality and the unusual thing. And I think I've talked about, no one knows what I've talked about before. - But yeah, they need to feel that pendulum swing. - Yes. - We had that weird thing. Now let's go back. - Yes. - You don't feel how hot it is outside and tell you walk inside and you feel that air conditioning. - Of course. - Great, now let's go back outside. - Of course, and so I heard like the same one set, like a drama or a play or like a dramatic movie, it takes the whole movie for the character to change. But in a comedy, the character changes 10 times in one scene. - Right. - Right, they go back and forth and they very forgetful of what just happens. They constantly are making the same mistakes over and over again. - Right. - And I think that we should like get over stuff fast in scenes, right? If we get upset that something happens in a scene, we can get over it so we could go back to a normal, like emotional level so we could get upset again. It's like when you press a button, the only way to press a button again is to let go of a button. - Yeah, you can't keep pushing harder in the elevator. - No, no. (laughing) And that's the only way to actually press a button. And I think letting go of the button is like playing a bass reality. And I also like bass reality because if we, it's clear, and we really frame the game and we like understand why the person's doing this unusual behavior. When we go back to bass reality, we could have no idea where the next game move's gonna come from. - Yeah. - So the first time an unusual thing happens in the scene, the audience gets so excited because this is the magic of improv that they get to share that moment with you, right? The unusual thing happened on stage, you guys experience and they experience it at the same exact time. That's what I think makes that moment so magical. And then I think we wanna recreate that moment in scenes. And how to do that is to go blindly, like to go just straight into the bass reality, not knowing where the next move is gonna come from, but having a clear philosophy so that we know we're gonna find it when it hits us, right? I want it just like in the first move, I want the second move to hit us, right? And that can only happen by leaving it behind to find it again. 'Cause when we find it again organically like that, the audience experiences that same discovery that you do. And I think that's part of the biggest magic of improv is discovering it with the audience as it's happening. - Yeah, a lot of people will try to write the next move. Oh, I know now that I finished this move, let me set something up to hit that next move. And you can feel it. It feels unnatural. - Yeah, I always, just like, just think about who you are on the scene. Great. You as a, like the voice of reason that you have a job that you wanna get done the scene, do that, right? You're trying to get breakfast, finish making breakfast, right? Breakfast on this table, right? Do the next thing that you have to do, right? Start packing your bag for school, right? 'Cause in that sense, then we don't know how it's gonna hit next. And it also takes a lot of pressure off the people to be funny. All we have to do is be real in a moment, or be honest to what the bass reality is. - That was Sebastian Cannelley. And Sebastian presented the parts that are often called resting the game instead of returning to bass reality. It gives the scene time to breathe. You're returning to reality so we can find a new, surprising move. As Devon Richie explains here, the voice of reason in a scene can often end up in charge of establishing that bass reality. - I love straight manning, like crazy. I'm like in the Aaron Jackson School of Straight Manning where like screaming, but like also, you're the person like speaking to the best interest of the audience and like the bass reality of the scene as we know it. - Yes. - You're A.O.K. always being like, "Don't put snakes on my baby!" - Yeah. - And knowing, not being like, "Hmm, that is weird that you would put snakes, but I guess." Like that's kind of how it used to be. Like tells us straight man at first where it's like let it happen, do this. And I'm like, "That is a good tool to use in 301. That is a great tool to learn." And then eventually we can like ease off on it and start reacting like yourself a little more. You know? - Which is where like the very fun when somebody is that voice of reason, it's when they're the voice of reason as themselves. - Oh yeah. - They get so many more laughs than the person who's playing the game. - Yeah, I feel like that was like a big like watershed moment for me that like I was just like, "Oh my God, that's how I would react." And I said it like that and it got like a big laugh. And I love playing with the team that I can straight man so hard and shut their game down. You know, and just being like, I'm literally physically taking away these things. We're doing this, get in the car. We're doing, and they're like, "How are we gonna play with that?" I'm like, "You'll figure it out." Like, "I'm like the best improvisers will figure out how to start a fire in the back of my car." You know, like whatever it is. Like, "I can't stop." You know, I've been like, you know, kidnapped and tied up and like duct tape over my mouth and I've still got to find a way to play my game and I love that challenge. - It is like, it's a challenge that I think less confident improvisers don't give each other as much of like, "Oh, I'm just gonna set you up for the next move." It's like, I love when the voice of reason instead takes away the move that you know they were going for. - Yeah. - And puts them on their toes a little bit of like, "Oh, I gotta figure out the new thing." - And so you gotta be careful with jams because of that, because like, "I can't shut people down that hard because the student will just be like, "Oh, exactly." - Okay. Never mind. I'm like, "No, no, no, do it, do it." We really want you to do it. We be like, "Don't ever do that." It's telling you to do it. - Yeah. - So you gotta gotta be careful sometimes. So like, really there, you gotta kinda like a straight man with a soft touch where I'm like, "So, this is crazy." - Yeah. - And sometimes then redo that thing of like, remember two lines ago that thing. - I loved that. - Indicate very hard. And it's really fun. And like us jam leaders like fuck with each other too. And like really play with each other. And it's so good when like students are good enough to like really challenge you. And like I'm like, "Oh, you're getting good." - That was Devon Richie. So Devon got at some big ways of framing the game as the voice of recent character. You can do it through emotional reactions or simply by reacting as yourself, by pointing out directly what you think is funny about the scene. But past just framing, that idea that a voice of reason should be taking away that safety net is important. The job of the other character in the scene isn't just to set up the weird person to make more moves. Once the game is set and framed, once you've done that work, then the voice of reason should force the other person in the scene to make surprising game moves. Surprising for her, surprising for the audience, surprising moves. Not just the standard, okay, we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this. Boom, we've written the scene. The voice of reason is still an important character in the scene as Chris Scott and I talk about next. - One of my favorite things is the coach. 'Cause I coach a lot of new teams, three young organizers, three, oh one, four, oh one. They maybe just start understanding the Harold. And I'm like, "Let's do a La Ronde." I get to be the first one to be allowed. So I'm probably like telling them wrong, all right. But it's like so fun watching young improvisers who just start doing it. We just start understanding game and then realize like character can do two things. - Right. - Can do more than two things. I mean, you can do both at the same time. - Yeah. - One just becomes a little subservient to the rest of the scene, maybe. - Yeah. - Ah, it's so fun. - I use the Simpson's a lot as an example for that of, "Oh, okay, we know Homer's game. "In every scene, he isn't aggressively being dumb. "If it's instead, we need to play Bart's game "or Lisa's game or whatever." He can still be dumb in his reaction to that. - Right. - But it's still-- - Yeah, we're dealing with the focuses on that other thing. I do do the last night, a Laurent Monocene where the rule is they're all roommates. And in the first scene, one of them has to have a problem with the other roommate. And treat it like a roommate problem. Treat it like you're not doing your dishes. But it has to be absurd and weird. - Right. - So like, hey, I know our rooms are private spaces and so forth. But that black hole you have in your room, it's really disturbing the rest of the apartment. But treat it in that more, like don't treat the group like it's really a black hole because well, it's no scene. Don't get the panic, but treat it as if it's like a messy room or a pet or whatever. That's the filter you're doing it one more time. Third person comes, they deal with that. Third person comes on. The person who was accused of the problem leaves the new person then gives the person who had the problem with the other person, the thing they're upset. - I have a problem with it now, you. - Yeah. - Everybody is getting a thing. - We're on thing. - Everyone's being gifted with a weird thing they do in the apartment and then when they start playing with it. And it's funny how naturally they will do a thing where if one person has a problem with the black hole, for whatever reason the rest of them, they tend to default the rest of the people are totally chill about it. Which is great. - Yeah. That's not always sunny thing where the straight straight man back and forth and then we okay with something or Not okay with something even Charlie who is such a crazy care. Yeah, or even Frank will call other people out Yes for their weird. Yeah insane things one moment to a next. Yes. I love the openings like the openings of every Yeah, is someone present weird plan. Mm-hmm Everyone else says that's stupid. Yeah, but their goal is the same Yes, more people to the bar or whatever and they'll take some base part of that and then put their spin on it and Then they go off and maybe they'll team up with somebody Exactly, but never if they team up with somebody they have different opinions like right? Yeah, and do crazy things It's just the name of like your characters are not only your game. Yeah The I think it's Malini's phrase the like voice of reason rather than straight man because it like it changes it rather than Hey, it takes out the whole straight and man. Yeah, yeah, but also it just it makes it not that like oh this person is always going to be That they're always gonna be the wet blanket. It's that no we can all be the voice of reason at some point And yeah, if you have this roommate wrote a Laurent type thing right each person can respond with like this my problem with a black hole Oh, I don't have that problem with the black hole. I have a problem with your whatever Yeah, and it's funny because one of the way I'm also treating it because I'm trying to get them to have treat them like real Play them like normal problems What often happens also is the person accusing it's up having for some reason they have to justify their They had a pair of someone's having as weird games for the reason they dislike it right yeah Absolutely, and I think the whole like just being a voice of reason easily falls to the way side of like no Somebody needs to tell the audience what's so funny about this take that break I know you already know what's funny about it because you're a comedian or you want to be the audience might not be unless you're a triple Ground which case do whatever right like yeah a team can be totally on board and know it's funny and play in such a way That they don't ever voice reason everybody else goes so good. Those are usually very good in front who can do that where they both realize It's one of this yeah, that was was off watch people play a behavior or thing and they know it's funny Or they know it started funny But because no one specifically says what it is right they either play it in different ways or drop it Because no one's just stating it taking two seconds. Yeah, say some people might think it's weird that we do this Mm-hmm, and then they'll persuade they some people might we don't all right now you're doing it great But they'll get like so often as again like making it clear what your game is yep They know it's funny, but no somebody else doesn't give them that gift of right This is what was funny about it. I feel like especially in from for me I end up doing the kind of like tapping around of like I know I got a sound here. Let me keep tapping around the wall Right and see when I maybe oh it's getting worse. Oh, no, I'm going to the wrong direction. Oh crap That's people being a little too polite. Yeah with each other. Yeah, I'm like oh that was a funny thing I don't want to step on your toes to do it But it's funny also like afterwards. I'm like all right. You had that idea Everyone laughed out the thing was said everyone laughed at it Why right? Look I'm like if you talk it out. I know something's it's hard to put into words Mm-hmm, but you laughed for a reason what struck you as funny about it right? Well girl like well was this nice great Why the hell didn't you do that? Yeah? One team that I coach for for a while team half penny got very used to me saying just do that Yeah, just do it. You knew that was funny. Just do that like why You do know this other stuff you knew that was the funny thing right we laughed you laughed it was funny. It was great Yeah, yeah, and there's resting there's resting the game Yeah, but first do it for a while do a little bit so you know what it is yeah Find when you get a little sick of it walk away from it unless you're hitting it so hard sure If I'm as you as you can hit it so hard and we'll just work do anything else for even a half a second Yeah, and then come right back to it. Yeah, even though like resting a game I think like I wish like I it's like the game just needs a breath in yeah Yeah, you just need a breathing space and then go right back. Yeah, resting the game sounds like you're putting it down one Yeah, it's like yeah, just inhale realize where you are Find one thing even like I mean I think the cold restful uses the go sort mail You know, yeah, do something whatever go do one thing and you don't just set up the next return to it whatever Either either you will discover something in the new thing you're doing that fits that brings you right back to it or if that doesn't happen Just have someone bring it up again. Yeah, just bring it right back up. Yeah, give it any give the audience one second to forget Exciting is a really stupid. Yes, and they laugh whenever something comes up again. We like patterns We like patterns. We love it. We love it. We love expecting patterns We love it when we expect something and then it doesn't happen and then it does Great So funny what we laugh at I have this thing when I when I you don't tech anymore because it drives me crazy Because sometimes I'll be teching group and they'll hit that That's haven't seen there's no connection to anything else and it's going on for four minutes And I know I have to black them out and I'm like mentioned one character's name for a previous scene Yeah, the audience will laugh enough that I can black you out if you call one person Bob Because it was mentioned to the first scene I Guired to you regardless makes any sense whatsoever people will laugh. Yeah, comedy is not hard Always Yeah, a lot of it just really is just like do that thing aren't you glad it didn't say banana? Yeah, exactly Yeah, that was Chris Scott Sometimes we play games so tenaciously that we forget that audiences love patterns Especially in second beats we can often hit many of those same parts of the first beat But and this is going to sound a little dumb faster louder and more committed I mean that's not all second beats are of course, but they often can be that simple audiences love patterns every once in a while give them what they love Again Chris brought up framing which isn't too surprising a lot of the people in this podcast coach or teach him Proud a lot which is why framing keeps coming up in discussions of game the most common pitfall for improvisers Have any level is not communicating with that other person here's Lugansolis who would take in sketch 101 at UCB before he took improv I Guess what was your introduction to game because you if you going through sketch? I feel like it would be very different It was easy it was easier for me to pick it up during sketch than in improv I Strongly suggest anyone who who takes any improv classes to take a sketch class or work on writing sketches because It was so easy for me. I mean again Just in terms of just like pinpointing what I thought was a game starting I couldn't imagine what it was me trying to figure out what game is and then enacting it in an improv class without having to Sketch class is talking about game because game was in was brought up right in one in 101 in sketch So just breaking the partner that piece of like oh now you're solely doing this rather than yeah doing this plus acting it Plus heightening it plus yeah, I mean to me it was like oh, what's funny? Yeah, okay. Let's just keep doing what's funny And I think everyone and I think everyone tries to find different ways to Bring it up, but at the end of the day our job is to make people laugh Yeah, and if you're not doing that then you need to figure out a way to do that because all this Intellectualizing is helping no one right you are creating amazing your mind right by doing that and it's very easy for me to say this now You know yeah doing this so long, but it's true like the reason why manic at room worked was because we were trying to make each other laugh I mean we didn't necessarily play game when we first started and Kate Riley It's like what the hell what the hell is this And she would drill game hard and I'll say Kate's probably one of the best game teachers So we were kind of lucked out yeah with her we became decent enough in game where we can be like okay Well, this is kind of a game, but I don't think people Talked about how good of a game we played we talked about us. I hope they just said that we were funny I would much prefer that all they really you know they really like picked up a game really played it hard I'm like listen. We're not trying to teach anyone anything. Yeah saying a team plays game well It's kind of like set looking at a piece of art and saying like oh, yeah, they're good at drawing. Yeah, it's like yeah I mean that should be true. Yeah, there's like the base part and yeah We want the laughter we want all the that stuff on top that we really react to and it's just it's a matter of Figuring out your voice. I think a lot of people who take classes have an agenda and they don't see the forest beyond the trees They're just like I want to get good at this thing and so your focus is to get good and so therefore you're gonna be harder on yourself That was Luke and Zalus now as Lou mentioned game is incredibly important to a scene But it's not the only thing to a scene here's Lydia Hensler again This picks up right from where we left off a little bit ago. She had just referred to knowing how to play game as a safety net that we can rely too hard on And especially at that point where it is oh, I think I need to do the right thing because I'm in class And I want to get to advanced or I'm in advance and I want to get a Lloyd I'm a Lloyd it's like that feeling if I must do it right and it chokes it today Yeah, and I think I we all do that like operate from a place of fear especially when learning a new thing or I just know myself like the way I'm built was like I always want to do the right thing. I'm just like too honest and too like is this okay and I remember in a bachelor rehearsal once me asking I was asking Will a question Will Hines was on your coach at one point we had I mean we were together forever we had everyone is that coach at one point but Will is our coach at one point and I was asking I asked him a question about like a possible analogous second beat for some scene and he was like yeah he's like that would work he was like but don't do anything to be like the textbook like you like or like a student of the game he's like don't feel so attached to game that you're like well we've run it out on this like I think it was like a fun like witchy scene and he's like don't change the whole scenario so that you can play that game again in another way if really like that witch was just so fun like just go do the fun thing again you want to see that which yeah like give yourself that permission in that room and that was something that was really helpful because it was like right like just do the most fun thing and I think that also helps you look at things in terms of the show as a whole so if I was like okay well game wise maybe we blew that out so now we'll put it we'll go analogous because we blew out that first one but show wise like I why would we ever get rid of that amazing character you know so like let's go put that character somewhere else and like blow out their character you know so it was um it was really helpful like to get a fuller picture like that yeah and abandon the right and wrong thing yeah exactly because yeah because that fear of wrong makes people walk so tentatively that it's not very fun to watch that's it I always like lightness is so lovely in life and it's just the worst in it and that was something I feel really lucky because before I knew what I was doing I would jump out and scenes because I think so Owen Burke and Will Heinz were my first teachers um and I signed up for an Owen Burke class and Will took over and then I took two Owen with Owen Burke and it was really helpful because they both stressed so much of just like jump on the grenade fall on this or they get out there and everything was about supporting your scene partner and treating their ideas like they were genius um and so this idea of game and right and wrong like followed that uh bedrock and so it was kind of good because they were very big on like you never leave an empty stage never you know it was just like you keep that show moving and you get you fill the space and you yes and and like as long as you're yes and you can't do anything wrong and so it was really helpful because I don't think I had that sort of head struggle that a lot of people do in the beginning anyway because you were already making the steps to play game naturally so that it just kind of happened as a result of these other things rather than in my playing game and I am in my accentuating the fun thing you were just like hey this fun thing's happening let's all get out and do it yeah and I think because they were so big on like get out there just go and take care of each other there wasn't room for play they were like very good at being like you can't be polite you have to get out there and so whether it was a good scene or a bad scene everybody was like that I got your back feeling was there immediately and I think that's like the politeness thing it takes away from I got your back you can't get somebody's back if you're worried about doing the right thing you know and the people who are most worried about stepping out often seem to have that like and because I do this a lot of like am I real-roading this whole show is this whole show fucking just become Curtis all the time but I think especially from watching other people who worry about that the people who worry about that are generally not the people who do that yeah you're worried you're in the show too much you're probably not being like look at me yeah and then so everybody's so worried about that that they just don't yeah they don't jump on those grenades finally here's a killy stomat lucky we've been talking about UCB 201 improv classes which is where you first learned game what pitfalls do you think people fall into at least at that level when they're first learning it so I mean one you mentioned like okay so they're already like on that basic agreement level what kind of pitfalls do they still I think the the main pitfall is trying to win the funny thing or win the game when they do find it because a lot of game is like arguing well especially if it's like straight man crazy man voice of reason versus unusual person in the scene so I feel like that's a huge thing that you just have to kind of nudge them away from this idea of your side doesn't need to by the end of the scene convince the other person to not do the weird funny thing anymore and it should be oh you need to set that person up to keep doing that thing and I think that's a that's I think the biggest thing about playing game in general is tends to tendency to try to argue and win and I think the other thing too is sometimes when you do find like kind of a nice groove in the scene of like oh I think this is the unusual thing or people in the scene have both agreed on what it is there's sometimes a tendency to list the game yeah moves and kind of just talk about like oh and then we're gonna do this we're gonna do this remember when we did this we're gonna do this now it speaks to I think like the people in the scene have an idea of what it is yeah but then it's just a matter of kind of playing it actively yeah rather than writing that scene of this is what it's gonna be yeah okay yep we did that thing oh like I hope you don't do this thing later yeah and I think like writing is also like a good kind of word to use about it because game is so much about writing on your feet and the the quote unquote writer improvisers in which I I'm totally am the writer improvisers in the class often will be like oh my god I got it I got what the the list of this thing is so we'll just try to list it off and I also think the more actuary people also grab onto that because they see it as a pattern that they're they're doing in the scene so to me it's not the worst thing because they're actually of the same mind yeah what the the game is but sometimes they get they do get locked into like well let me list all the book points that right what happened in this scene rather than just playing it what are your favorite types of games oh and it and scenes that I'm in yeah I think with with the teams that I'm on I generally tend to be the person who's passing like I'm the person who's like oh let me gift my seam partner with the unusual thing because the teams that I do play with tend to be for lack of a better term like funnier than I am right like I the other thing with game is game allows me to stay on the same court with everybody else on stage like I'm never I'm never gonna be as funny as like Eddie done but the fact that I have an ability to play game in the scene helps me compete right in the same level with him but yeah I think that my favorite types of scenes are when I'm kind of like alley being the other person to help kind of play their thing or if I'm facilitating things in the scene that's that's what I like to be in but I also you know enjoy being the unusual character but I do think I gravitate towards here let me set you up yeah and then you'll you'll kill it while I stay on stage with you you know what are some of the other things that you learned as you went team by team like what are the like what are the skills that you feel like you developed as like as you moved to each team I I just got more comfortable with game I think that was because obviously you know by the time you get on a team you know game yeah but then like back then I I feel like I was like almost compared to now where I'm very engaged with like all the different components of the scene right back then I was just like kind of winging it like I was just I was just like kind of relying on okay well my team probably did that so I'm going to do this now it was almost this the least intellectualized version of of playing game but the more you know you're doing it the more you're onstage the more you're seeing and hearing different perspectives from different coaches and stuff it helped me define game in a way to myself that I could actually apply in scene work because you were able to pick and choose of oh Charlie mentioned it like this I can steal that thing oh this thing this no particular note hit me in this way yeah yeah just the the different ways different coaches would refer to the same thing help me be like oh okay yeah that's a different perspective I can look at this idea that I thought I knew everything about that is actually like oh you can think about it this way like I remember like labeling was not really a term that was used yeah labeling or framing wasn't really a term that was used like when I was taking classes the the the more general term was like react react to it which is I think obviously important but not as specific in terms labeling and I remember on my second team Anthony King was our coach for a while and he was like yeah you guys need to label the game you guys need to say what the funny thing is in the scene and I was like oh right you can do that and it like it was a kind of a moment for me that was like oh this makes it so much easier yeah I just define what the weird thing is in the scene and the type of player I am that just added to like what I was good at all right which was yeah kind of like being heady about this in the first place it's it's funny how many of these things that we now take for granted is basic like either we just didn't have for a while or didn't exist for so long or weren't in the kind of like overall conversation like I remember reading the word framing in the manual and it's like yes that's what I've been trying to say that's the way to say it that's what I've been trying to get like that and it made sense to me instantly at least. "Oh, okay, this is what we're doing." - Yeah, and I think that's what, like, Del Close and the UCB have done so well. Like, Del Close was kind of the first person who helped define these big improv concepts in a way that was like, "Oh, that makes sense the way "you're telling it." It's not just like, "Okay, so yeah, let's improvise." - Right. - You know, it was beyond yes and it was bigger, applicable things, and then, UCB took it to a whole other level with, like, here's what the game of the scene is, and here are the components of that thing. It's almost like, Del Close was the person who invented the car or something, and then the UCB was like, "Oh, here's the engine "that goes into the car." Like, and here are all the different types of components of the engine. Here's like, if you press this pedal, like, it'll make the engine, you know? - Or it feels like music. Like, "Oh, he wrote a song, and then the UCB were like, "Okay, but it's in this time signature. "This is the key. "These are, it's a 1/4/5. "These are the thing," or whatever. - Yeah, I think, maybe what we're getting at too is like, Del Close was the person who created music or helped-- - He was the furoriest. - Yeah, he defined music, and then UCB helped create the theory of music. - Sure, yeah. - Exactly, like, it's like, "Oh, we have musical notation now." Like, the music has always existed. - Right. - But now we can, like, write it down so other people can do it. - Right. - And now other people can play it. And it is, yeah, it is weird to kind of go through your entire improv life and be like, "Yeah, we're learning this, we're learning this." - Oh shit, there's a new perspective on this. And not even a new perspective, just like, "Oh, I haven't heard this," you know? - Thinking of it like theory is feels very true also in terms of, okay, first of all, obviously everybody has their own perspective on it. - Right. - But also that, oh, this is a possible underlying pattern. It may be a pattern below what you're currently capable of working with on the fly. - Right. - Like, with music, like, okay, great. You're still working on basic chords. You don't need to be thinking about every variation of every scale or something like that. - Right. - But it's there and we're still delving deeper into, okay, now once you see this theory, maybe there's another thing that either supplements that or that is another way of layering on top of that. - And I think to carry this analogy even further, it's like you discovered that the earth goes around the sun and you're like, oh my god, the earth goes around the sun. And then the UCB basically are like, oh, there's math to that. - That was a Killy's stomatalocchi. Now, a Killy's mentioned getting those different perspectives, which is basically what I want with this podcast. It's limited because I mostly interviewed people who might talk to about improv a lot, but taking classes and getting different people to coach you is invaluable. Have a regular coach for six months a year to really want you grow and help you long-term, but also hear those other voices, through classes or other practice groups, et cetera. That's it for episode two. Establish your base reality. Take things from real life and let them infuse your scenes. So you have something to return to when you're not just playing the game. A cake can't be all frosting. You can't just make game move, game move, game move. You can email me at [email protected] that's C-U-R-T-I-S-R-E-T-H-E-R-F-O-R-D. You can also find and rate the podcast on iTunes thanks to everyone who was part of this episode. - Alex Dixon. Hi, Lydia Hensler. - This is Sebastian Cannelli, Devon Richie. - I am Chris Scott, Lugansolas. - I am Achilles Stalmatalaki. - And I'm Curtis Rutherford. (gentle music)