#016 - Laird Hamilton - The King of the Ocean Opens Up on What it Takes to Live an Extraordinary Life

What does that mean when you say you didn't we didn't keep our lives child centric? We didn't adjust what we we I mean we still have our lives so that when the transition was like Gabby's had her Been working on her career the whole time. I'm still doing all my stuff So it wasn't like they left and then it was like oh, I need to get a career now Yeah, you know, I need to figure out where to fill the space that the kids were filling. Yeah, so I think that makes it difficult for people Do you think that's been healthy for them? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, because then they because then they I mean at the end of the day They're looking at you know You're what you do not what you say and so you're their example So if you're doing living a life and doing certain things they're just look. They're clocking that they're just like okay, you know, and so they so I think I think it's I think it's probably better for a child to Have an example of someone who's having a life That's their parent and then they can get their life instead of Someone that's a parent that's just their life is the kids. So the kids only have the example of somebody having their life for the kids Yeah, which I mean that obviously they're you know, that's probably child rearing and parenting is probably the I don't know apex of our existence like that's what we're here to do and So I wouldn't devalue that position, but I think it's important to you know set an example of you know of the kind of person that that They that they could aspire to be yeah, you know, yeah, yeah Which is more than just like hey, I'm your mom and I'm here every day and all I do is serve you What do you think the dangers of that? I don't think there are any no dangers. I don't I don't think there are any dangers in that Yeah, I think there's I think there's more danger in that making the kids the center of the universe That's what I meant one of the dangers in making your kids the center of the universe Right, I think the list is too long. I think that First of all, it's not honest Because the kids aren't the center of the universe So and so if they go into the world thinking that the center of the universe are gonna be in for a big shock Instead of hey, they're part of a universe and then that allows them to Be part of a universe instead of what do you mean? I'm not the center of the universe like you know, and I mean, I think that It might be more difficult to have friends if you're the center of the universe It might be more difficult to have intimate relationships. Yeah true truthfully, you know truthfully intimate I think yeah, I just think there's a lot of downfalls to that, you know to the At least the kind of people that I would respect or that I would hope my children become you know And then at the end maybe because that's not true that you're not the center of the universe That you're then that would lead them to have a difficult time to be happy Why Because it's not honest It's not the truth All right, it's not the truth that you're the center of the universe so you get out there and then all of a sudden you're not the center of the universe Then you're like well then what am I and then how do I fit in and what is that and then that search probably could be Maybe frustrating could be Disappointing Possibly disappointing especially if you think you're the center of the universe and then you realize you're not pretty disappointing could be I would actually could be Monumentally disappointing. Yeah, you know, was that ever your experience going up? Do you have the center of the universe? Or did you have the antithesis? No, my mom didn't have that luxury And so and then my male examples were More self-centric so that was the opposite thing, you know, they had that yeah, yeah, they had their they had their you know their lives were Were more important than anything versus you know wow as important or Something that is important, but not you know not exclusive. I was gonna start this in a different way But because we've started already we're gonna go into it. That's cool and we'll soak it back But I have this photo you yep, and I also have this one okay, and as I think about obviously My World has not touched greatness in the ways that you have but I do have a father who played soccer for Manchester United at a very high level. Yeah Um As I reflect on his world and and even to some respects my own having played professional soccer there was Some aspect of my upbringing and maybe a little bit of the dysfunction of it that inspired The heights that I went to and I'm curious just if you would have taped me into your childhood What I really want to know is as you reflect on what you've created and what you've achieved How much of it do you think was from inspiration and how much was from compensation? Or desperation or maybe there's a further one Desperation. Yeah, it could be a little bit of a desperation I would say, you know, yes, probably all of them on probably you know different Some compensation some inspiration some desperation. Yeah, you know, so Part of part of my upbringing created, you know some compensation definitely some desperation, you know, like just our financial position and the fact that I was You know different than most of the people that I was around And so I think a little bit of all those, you know a little bit of and maybe You know, and maybe different at different stages early on I I definitely had a chip on my shoulder like a something to prove I also I also had frustration too not and so that would probably be part of the chip and Part of something to prove so and then as I've gone I think Some of that I've had to shift that motivating force I think that can be a difficult time if you're always motivated by being frustrated and then you have No real valid excuse for frustration either have to create frustration Or you have to transition into what, you know, and I would use surfing as an example Of like if I start off frustrating frustrated or trying to prove myself or and then And then I'm able to prove myself according to my me ultimately Then what how do I transition and for me personally I transition that I realized that I just love to surf so and And that was probably the original reason why I did it at the very beginning was it was fun and I loved it. It was great And then and then it brought me a bunch of other you know other Other things that I needed you know a place of equality, you know a place to Challenge yourself. I mean so many lessons. Yeah, but yeah, I would I would say I probably had all those and maybe a few more In the absence of the desperation and the frustration. Do you think you could have done what you've done? I wouldn't say I couldn't of I would say it might have been different. Yeah, how I went about it It's like somebody saying you know, you know As you get older wouldn't you wouldn't you like to be young again? I go and not know what I know probably not Probably not. Probably wouldn't like to be want to be younger and not know what I know I'd rather know what I know and be older than to be young and not know what I know because I I might not first of all get to know what I know In the process. I might not have learned the things I learned because any one thing changes everything changes so You know, I mean it was all those all those things that were hard that were Frustrating that made it difficult. Yeah I mean those things are the things that shaped me. Yeah, it's like why would I it's like saying you want to be shaped differently than you or I don't have that I don't really have Regrets and per se I don't look back and go I regret. I mean have I maybe some others are a few things that I've done that I'm like I would have liked to have done that differently a little bit, but I don't have like regress. I've always thought that was important to not Look back and have they have regrets. You just don't want to have regrets And if you were to think about the frustration the energy that was fueling you early on. What were you frustrated at? I didn't have a dad in the beginning, you know, I didn't I didn't have a yeah that was an excuse maybe I didn't have a father Initially I was you know, we our family was I would say poor like we didn't have we didn't have financial means so you know, it's like You don't always get new clothes. You're not in a decent car to drop you off at school. You're and then And then You know, and then you're you know, you're different than everybody. You know, it's like I I'm in an environment. I'm in an environment where I am Just different than other people. I'm different color. I'm different. You know, I'm an outsider. So And when you're an outsider, that was a level of frustration because you want to be an insider Everybody wants to be an insider. It's a human condition I was gonna ask you the sense. I mean this podcast intends to create spaces for people to discover what it really means to belong Sounds like a lot of your world has been fueled by that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course I think we had to natural tribal instinct. We want to be part of the tribe. We want to be accepted We want to be respected. We want to be you know, we want all that all the things that You get from being part of some group, yeah, has the ocean given you that? I mean the oceans given me Everything I have If I look at it, it's given given me all the Important lessons. I wouldn't know Gabby without the ocean. I wouldn't have my beautiful daughters without the ocean, I wouldn't have learned the lessons. I wouldn't have expanded my patience. I wouldn't have had all these incredible experiences. I wouldn't see the world the way I do, and I would have seen the world the way I've been able to see the world, and go in the world, and do things in the world, and the places. For me, if I look at it, I would say it's the grandmaster. It's like being trained by the highest master. I've been trained by the grandmaster at the institute of the sea, and the lessons are too many to count. It's probably half of them. I can't consciously even verbalize. I'm not able to even verbalize what it's brought. If you had to articulate the greatest one. If I said, "Okay, what's the greatest lesson the ocean gave me?" I would say, "Belief in God, probably." I would say, "Belief in God." Belief in a creator and creation, just because of the majesty of it, the power of it, the beauty of it, just everything, the magnitude, the depth of it, the width of it, the height of it, there's beyond our ability to even comprehend. We've only discovered three percent, four percent. It's like, if that, and that's just actually just the volume, never mind the intricacy. After the sun, it's one of the reasons why we're here. It can be here. One of the greatest challenges for maybe most of the population is this search for in the pursuit of God and the defining of it. You said the ocean is giving you a belief in God. If you could articulate what that sort of knowing is for you. The one thing is, it definitely will allow you to understand your position, which is very small, very, very, very small. And your knowledge is very limited, very limited. The smartest you are, the smartest we are, the smartest smart can be. You haven't even scratched the surface. So I would say that your position, because of that insignificance, there's a certain humility, a certain curiosity. You're always curious. It's never, it's always changing. It's always different. The same day on the same place at the same time, it's ever changing, which is in a way speaks to the majesty, the beauty of it, the mystery, the mystery, the mystery. And the mystery is meant to be, right? We're meant to have a mystery. And we always will have one, no matter what we think we know, we'll always just get to a point where there's, when we get to a place, there's going to be another place, after the place we get to, and there's no end to it. And so I think that having that kind of perspective, like when you come into it, having that perspective knowing that you're not going to know, even as much as you can know, or there is to be known, I think that, I mean, that's inspiration that keeps you learning. We had Peter Crone on the podcast a couple days ago, and he said that God's not available to you when you think you know. Of course, because when you say God is not available to us when we think we know, it's because we just closed the door. The knowing, the thinking you know is closing the door to knowing. Like you've stopped the flow, you've stopped the energy being able to, you've stopped being able to receive it because you think you've received it. So you've closed the opportunity. That's why they, you know, what do they say, retain your youthful enthusiasm, you know, be curious. You always talk to people as they go on in their lives and the more they learn, the curiosity is the key, which not a lot of knowing and curiosity. Not a lot of knowing. You know, I think our ability to comprehend what God is is very limited. Like we're just, we don't have the capacity. We can see the complex city within the physical domain already so complex, we can't even, you know, and that's what we see. And what we see, or what we see, a couple per, you know, a couple percent of the light spectrum, 2%, 1% of the 99% of what, so and that's even what we know about it. Never mind what we don't know about it. So I think that that that's showing us, just giving us an opportunity. So then it leads to okay, I don't know, I feel, I feel, I can sense, I feel, obviously something more, something greater, something beyond our capacity, which then leads to faith, which leads to like, I have to believe in something that I really don't have any evidence. But I know is true. I do know it's true. I don't wonder if it's true. I don't think it's true. I know it's true. Even though I really don't know. So here we are back to them not knowing. Like, I know, and it's if you know, then you stop God and so that, but you just, you have an intuition and, you know, sense of it. You just, you know, it's a sense. Yeah. Do you have a moment where that first became evident to you? Like that was a wave of a time in the ocean where that first sense of knowing without knowing it became evident to you. I may have had it always, in fact, that we always all have. When did I remember? Yeah. I think I think it was over a period of time. I think it wasn't just I remembered on a moment. It's I remembered over moments. It's like I had, I've had, you know, so many experiences in the ocean, good and bad, thrilling, exciting, you know, the most still moments, the most wild things, and I think all of those, it's an accumulation over time. I think all of those things have accumulated to help the remembrance, like to help the the process. I obviously, my original attraction to it was probably the beginning of it, of that, right? But I had to have something that made me attract it to it. Yeah. And that started as a child. I mean, humans are attracted to it. Like, why does everybody want to beach front house? Yeah. Like, why do we want to be, you know, near the ocean? I mean, if you think about the ocean and then you think about God, well, and this, and this is creation and did God create the the creator who created. I mean, it's like, you just go, we can just get lost, but we can definitely say that the ocean, I mean, it produces the oxygen that we breathe. And it's a living, it's living, and it's the amount of life that's in it. And then I would say, you know, that that that that if God created, if God created the creation or created the creator who created it, whatever circumstances there are, the largest aspect of that is the ocean. Like, that's the biggest, that's 76% of the planet, which is just coincidentally the same ratio of our bodies. Like, I'm just an accident, but so I didn't know that. Yeah. The same percentage that the ocean takes up on earth is the percentage of water in our bodies. What do you make of that? It's not an accident. How does that, how does that? How do you get these? And there's just that's just one of, you know, an infinite amount of those that that there's just no, it's it is statistically impossible for us to exist on earth in space without some sort of architecture, without some divine plan, without some blueprint, without it's just it's it's it's there's just known and I don't you can bring all the number people in the world to me and I'd just be like, yeah, I'm sorry, but I just there's no way you can tell me what do they say? Yeah, it's all explainable. If you just give me the big bang and I'm like, so you need a miracle and then you can explain everything. Exactly. Just one miracle and then we can explain everything. I'm like, okay, but we need a miracle. So who the miracle come from? Like how did the miracle happen? So, so that, I mean, for me, I would look at it that way, like these these things like that, like, you know, like pure seawater and and just what the bot what your body does in the ocean, how it affects your body and just, I mean, it's just all, I mean, so I'd look at the ocean as in creation, okay, lands pretty, you know, rocks don't move really, right? But the ocean's alive. Like, it's a living element that can go into stages that only the only water the element can. you can be frozen, it can be a liquid, it can be a gas, it can be, and there's no elements that can actually do all of that. So again, and we're kind of, we're made of seawater, we're kind of, we're seawater, like, we're, you know, what's saline, like, like we're, yeah. So, I mean, I feel like that's the, that's just giving us an opportunity, like it's an opportunity, like here's here it is, just take a look and tell me what you think, and then if you from that, from that observation, if that doesn't lead you to some sort of belief in, in higher knowledge, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a plan, in a text, in an architectural blueprint, in something, I don't know how to help you, I don't know what to say to you, like, you know, like, just all you have to do is just take a little time and be still and observe and seem like you'll, it also, yeah, this also fascinates me because I'm curious, if the experience of God disappears in the absence of all wonder and curiosity, because it seems like what I'm hearing you say is that the ocean is afforded you consistently, all of those sensations. Well, it shouldn't, it shouldn't disappear, like, that should, I mean, maybe that's part of our, maybe that's part of our school. Maybe that's part of our journey is to be able to still retain that belief without the awe and, and, you know, without those experiences that maybe those can lead us to, to the, to that belief, but does it, it shouldn't be able to eliminate it, you know, it's just, I think it's a lot more difficult. I think it's a gift that we have just because we're not that smart. So, hey, I'll help you out here. So, yeah, you might need this other stuff to get inspired, you know, and have that, but I, I, I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, my experience of you and I've only known you for the past hour or so, but in my research is that you've managed to sort of maintain throughout your life that sense of wonder and that sense of curiosity and that sense of inspiration and it's not easy. It's not easy to, to be, to continue to be curious. I think sometimes life, if you allow it to, it will just, yeah, wear you out. Yeah. Like, it'll wear you out and wear you down and, and give you a lot of reasons to lose that, you know, you can lose that. I mean, you see people as they get older, they get maybe a little disheartened, like a little, you know, lose the curiosity. Oh, I did that in there and things like to know it, you know, been there, done that kind of know it. I mean, if I have any chance at all is, is because I've continued to try to activate off of it, like act to, to listen to it and, and I benefit it from it. And so in a way, could be like a muscle, could be like a muscle that you, you know, hard to be curious. If you're not curious and if you're curious, it might be easier to be curious. It's like, you just keep using it. Your curiosity leads you to a new, a new frontier. You get a new thing. Then you keep you, keep you inspired. You're like, oh, wow, that curiosity. That's pretty cool. And then you go the next one. You do that again. Then you do that again. And you do it again. Pretty soon, you're like, there's, you just, you're, that's what you do. Yeah. You're not going to stop doing that. Yeah. And if it doesn't or you don't use it, then it gets numb down. It gets numb. You stop, you kind of, you know, you get overwhelmed by all the, all the stuff designed overwhelm you, like all the other opposing force to that. Yeah. You know, yeah. The opposing force to the curiosity and wonder, because there's an opposing force. What is it? What's the opposing force? Whatever the opposite of curiosity and wonder is. Yeah. Well, it's, I know, I know. I'm not interested. It doesn't mean it's like all that other, the negativity, because I would say curiosity and wonder is a more bright light kind of thing. And then I would say that the opposing force is just, just the opposite, the opposite pull of that, which is mandatory, is mandatory to have to, to keep this everything running. It's like a battery. You just won't run without those opposing forces. But what's the dominating one? You know, what, what one are you choosing to, to lean towards? You have an opportunity. You can go towards the, you know, the discouragement and the negative and the low vibration, or you can try to go continue to go towards the enlightened, curious kind of high vibration, those are the, and maybe that's our, maybe that's part of the challenges that that we're constantly getting pulled, because we have that within us. And so we're always getting drug back and forth. Yeah. Right. We're always getting pulled in both directions and, but just what's the dominating one? What's the one that, that wins, you know, for you? Because it's, and wins today on this hour. Yeah. And then what wins the next hour? And what wins the next hour? And then when you wake up, it wins the next day. And sometimes the one wins, one day, and sometimes the other wins the other day. Sometimes it wins the first hour and doesn't win the second. Yeah. It's always, I think there's, I think it's a, it's something you're participating in. Yeah. And you have to participate all the time. You have to just be like, Hey, I'm enlightened. Cool. And then just don't do anything. You know, he's like, or he I'm discouraged. And I'm, and I'm disbelief. And then, you know, and I'm, and so I'm not doing it. It's like you gotta, you gotta, you gotta kind of, you gotta play the, play the game. Yeah. Play the game, which is interesting because play the game. I don't end the playing of the game. I don't hear the word competition. When I hear, when I look at your life, it sounds as though curiosity is always superseded competition. And I'm curious, you know, can competition be the dark side of curiosity? Well, I think competition definitely brings out the dark side of us. I think that, that when you, when we are combatants against one another, I think that that is a lower frequency. But it's also what we have. We're primal. We have that side of us. We're spiritual and primal. So we have that war going on. I do think that I know for myself personally, it brings out the worst in me, even though I'm attracted to it because it's part of a, of this physical plane, right? You're, you know, if you're the A dog in the, in the pack, you choose the, you know, the best bride, you know, you, you, you win the trophy. You do the, so, so I think there's, I think, and I think within it, within competition, there's both forces happening, and there's, but there is a competition going on constantly within ourselves. We're constantly in competition with, again, the forces. So there, so in a way, there is something about it that is not necessarily, it's just, it's just maybe the way we cultivate it. Maybe with the, you know, I personally felt like the competition maybe really is with trying to be, you know, trying to be in the lighter, trying to be in the dark. That's the competition is between those forces, and sometimes you get pulled over into the one side, and sometimes you get pulled on the other side. I mean, I always felt like, you know, the competition is with yourself, ultimately, and nature is the battlefield, you know? So, you know, you're competing with yourself, and then you're like, okay, I'm going to, you know, ride this mountain, climb this mountain, ride this thing, do this thing, and this is a battle that you have internally. But the field is nature, the field is, it gives you whatever you want. You want to, you think you're tough, you think you're strong, you think you're smart, here's your field, here's your, here's your, here's your match, and, you know, yeah, I mean, that sounds like another lesson that the ocean seems to have taught you, is that you can't compete with it, you can only collaborate. Only collaborate. It's the field, it doesn't, it doesn't, it's not personal, that person has an opponent, nature is an opponent, it's like, first of all, you, you always lose that match. Have you tried to compete with the ocean? I mean, you, you, you think you try when you, when you're foolish, you know, I mean, I, I think I learned a long time ago about, it allows, you know, people say, oh, you conquered something, and I'm like, it'll conquer anything. You, you, you're allowed, it allows you to participate. It allows you to, you know, it allows you to, you know, ride it, climb it, run it, swim it, whatever that is, it's allowing you to do that. If it doesn't want you to do it, good luck. Yeah, you know, good luck, swimming up a river, yeah, because it's not going to stop flowing. So, then you could feel good about yourself, because you swim a little ways and get out, be like, oh, I swam up that river, yeah, yeah, for a minute. It also sounds, it also sounds that way of that sort of perspective doesn't allow for gratitude, whereas yours has afforded you the opportunity to be almost like infinitely grateful for the opportunity to, to partake in this. Well, the rarity to bring that to, right? Like when you, when you understand how unique every situation is and how infrequent they are, and each one unique, I mean, it's, I'd be, you know, it's like, what it takes to have an opportunity to be able to, I'll use a wave, because I spend a lot of time riding those. is what it takes to create a wave and have it be there for you and you be able to be on it. I mean, that's a miracle. First of all, let's just go there. Like all the elements that need to come together to create this moment for you to actually participate in this experience, and in the pursuit of it, you learn that fast. You learn that. It's not on Sunday at 12. It's not at Sunday at 12. You're not, you're not like, "Hey, on Sunday at 12, we're gonna go out here and right away." I was like, "Yeah, okay." Like, "What dream world do you live in?" So, and that's consistent. That's just, you know, and you don't know when the time in the place. You need to be ready if you want to. I mean, the time, you know. I mean, I spoke with her right or years ago. We had a lunch and, you know, he was had been kind of researching, surfing and all this stuff, and he goes, "You know, I realize that you guys are really patient." And I was like, "I just about fell out of my chair because I don't consider myself to have much patience, yet I would wait my life for a moment, literally, and have waited a lifetime for a moment." And so, when I looked at that way, I thought, "I've got a point there. I might not have everywhere else. Maybe I use it all up." You know, for that, maybe that's all used up. I don't have it when I'm in traffic or waiting in a line or something, but I have it. I have it in that situation. Well, it makes me wonder if patience is not something that we have or don't have. Like, it's only available in the presence of love. Well, love will make you really patient. That's for sure. So I have daughters. I know what that means. So they've bought me to levels of patience that I didn't know existed. And willingly, too, it wasn't even against my will. You have a skid in the ocean? Yeah. Still. I mean, I can be. What does it take to get make use of? I mean, if I was a mile out and I just had a huge giant cut in my leg and I was having to swim back to shore, I might be a little scared. Just chumming for sharks, you know, naked. That might scare me. You know, you know, what would I do with that fear? I don't know. I'm not in that situation at this moment. I mean, I think being scared is important. I mean, it's not a weakness. That's intelligence. If you're in a situation that is dangerous on the physical plane for your life, and we have a deep desire to be alive, if you're healthy, you know, you have a desire to live, then you're just not bad assessment. Bad assessment. Like, you should be scared. Now, what you do with that fear, separates you from other people. You know, maybe I'll just swim romathetically and keep my heart rate down and be observant and just take my time and, you know, do what I think will allow me to survive that moment and not freak out and start, you know, screaming or, you know, splashing the water or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that's, I mean, I always tell, I mean, if you want to talk about fear and being scared, please, the, there's a lot of ways to harness that, right? And fear can make a mother lift a car up when a child is under it. I'm not really strong, but she becomes very strong. And it's, you know, you watch the, I was talking about the antelope running away from the cheetah. The cheetah's the fastest animal in the world. But somehow it doesn't catch the antelope a lot of the time. I'm scared. But it makes you look faster. Make your vision sharper. Make your hearing better. Make your decision making. So, but then there's the other one, which is, you know, during the headlights where the deer scared, he just stops and the car hits him. So again, I think there's different reactions that you can have. But to harness that power. Wow. That's so interesting. You know, I never, yeah, that's, that's power. I never would have thought, but it's, I'm curious to know if it's actually the sensation of fear that has allowed you to ride some of the biggest waves. No, I'm drawn to it. I'm drawn to the being scared. I lie, I, I, I must like it because I've seen to put myself in positions frequently. And maybe I like the way it, how alive it made me feel. I felt, it makes me feel alive when I get scared. I mean, I tell people, if you ever are driving down the road and the car comes out in front of you and almost hits you, and then you get a, you know, burst of adrenaline and you're just like, and it's like your present, your, everything's on and you're in a state of awareness that a few other things bring you into. I mean, maybe if you're some monk on the hill that's been, you know, practicing for 40 years, you can get that present. But there's a presence that, that you get from that, you know, that, and then again, then getting through that, right, going through the process of it. I mean, I, you know, I've always liked doing things that were dangerous. It's just, I liked it. I mean, but not, not stupid, not like, hey, I'm going to do dangerous things, you know, and not things out of that, that, that you don't have some skill in. The better you have something, the more dangerous you can be. Yeah. Just the way it is. It's like that. It's like if you're very good at something, you can be very dangerous. And especially according to the outside perception, they look at that, they, oh my god, that's extremely dangerous. And you're like, actually, that's not nearly as dangerous as you think it is. But they don't have no experience to even understand how to be in that situation. So I think there's an ability to do dangerous things when you have a skill. So then you all have said and developed a skill at being in a situation that allows you to be very dangerous, making it less dangerous, right? Making it actually, it's actually less dangerous. And so, and then there's always the variables, right? There's always the, the, the things that you don't account for, the things that you don't have experience with during it, you know, the, the, the things that just pop up sometimes that put you in, maybe put you past your, yeah, kind of your skill level. Yeah. And then your skill level increases if you make it. Yeah. Right. I'm curious for you, if like the danger was to be mitigated altogether, would it still be as exciting? Like if you knew that there was no chance of death, for example, would it still be as exciting? Probably not. Probably not. I mean, you know, I, I, I mean, I would say there has to be consequence, some, some consequence, there has to be a, some kind of consequence for me personally, to, to turn me on, to make me be on. And ultimately, that's what I'm looking for. I'm, I believe, I'm trying to understand myself, why am I attracted to that? What's the part that's interesting? And there has to be a consequence, right? There has to be some sort of of consequence to really bring in any value. How's it going to have value if there's no consequence? Like what is, what really is there? What really is there worth gaining that doesn't have some sort of consequence if you make a mistake or fail? There's not many. And then some of it can just be self-induced, right? So it can just be the, the consequence of losing and how bad you feel because you're just creating that in your mind. It's working. Yeah. It's the same thing as you actually fall off a cliff and you can break your leg or die. I can do, if, if, if I make something mean that much to me that's not that dangerous, it has a similar effect. So you don't almost create it for yourself? Absolutely. Always mental. It's all mental. So it's at the end of the day, you can make, you know, losing or not being accepted by the tribe or what do they say? Like public speaking is, you know, it's one of the things that people fear, you know, almost more than death. It's like, how is that possible? But then you realize that the acceptance of the tribe could lead to you not being able to survive, which in at the end leads to dying. Right? So, but again, this is all an orchestration that we've created in our mind. So I think there is a, you know, my, my, my field just happens to have a little more of a physical element. Yeah. There has to be there's some sort of, you know, and whether it's holding your breath underwater training or whatever, where you're going to like this, you know, this perceived consequence. And maybe it's perceived greater than the actual. Wow. This is so fascinating to me. It's like, I've never heard it put like that that it's only in the presence of great consequence that we can do great things. Seems to me that makes complete sense. When does it not, when is it not happening? So, you know, like, like, when, when, tell me what there is, they, you know, that you can, you know, maybe some guys can put it on some big financial deal because they're going to be bankrupt than the thing and all that stuff. And then they're going to not have money and then they're not going to be able to eat and then they're going to die. But so, but at the end, it's always goes back to, it seemed to all, it seems to always go back to, there's, you have to have it. You have to have a, there has to be some sort of consequence. Yeah. What does that do for, I mean, this two-place I want to go maybe you'll start here and then I'll come back to the other place that mean the consequence for you in the ocean in moments has been death What I want to know is like is that a necessary ingredient for the true experience of life? Well, I think that That when you move towards Death the closer you are to it the more alive you feel I I would think that's probably a mathematical equation It's like you know like the closer you are to the edge the The more alive you feel I mean which is in a way Can be beautiful because it's simple it's not complicated Is my courage you might take courage might take faith believing that you can survive that you're going to be protected You're okay might take some magical like you know Belief system and something in the Belief in the unknown, but yeah, I mean I just I mean I think you have to you have to you have to you know You have to there has to be some sort of there's a relationship between the risk and the reward You know, what do they say no risk no reward? Yeah, no risk no reward. So if the risk is death if the risk is dying The reward is being alive Then you're like okay, well, I almost didn't make that one while being alive is pretty, you know and then and there's probably I mean, I imagine there's some negative there's all kinds of negative stuff in there where where you Where that's not easy to get all the time and then you have these kind of chemical reaction your body that you need it You're trying to look for it some other way. So then you're looking for artificial ways to to receive that but there is done Have you ever had that? The the negative side of that. Yeah, like I of course. Yeah, of course. Well, even just going into the situation because you're at such a high From the from it you're always going to have a for every action. There's an equal opposite reaction So you're always going to have a fall right you're always going to have a fall from that and it's going to be a lot further If you don't think there's a fall so knowing there's a fall is important because then that helps you mitigate the fall Yeah, reduce the level that you fall. Yeah, if you don't and you just indulge yourself in it then you can drag you into the pit You know, and then what and then then people are coming to a side, you know, they're they're they're just killing themselves Yeah, I am thankful that I Have gotten to and get to to feel that like to feel that I mean, you know, I told I said to someone I go, you know, I feel like okay, you're gonna go, you know Experience the creator or Particip or whatever and I'll be like how'd I do like that? You okay? I mean a good job, you know, I'm hoping for the good like good job Like and can we always be better and of course, but but part of I think being here is to Is to have it have those experiences? I think those are I mean Obviously they are because they've been given to us. Yeah, those are they it's there for us like it's presented to us and and There's some destructive ones and as many as there are constructive ones. Yeah, and so in a way, I think when you When you develop a skill that allows you to go and have these kinds of experiences That seemed like a good use of your time I'm just I'm just looking you have a lot of things a lot of a lot of time do a lot of things or no time to do a lot of things You know, what are you doing and so I feel like that's a pretty good use of your time for me I feel that way. I I could be greatly mistaken. I hope I'm not but it's a little late to change it Yeah, you always I mean it seems to me that the year at the entirety of your life has been you seem to be really clear on what you care about Most I'm for most people a lot of people it seems as though it takes them their whole life to really understand what they care about most and by the time they define it It's too late Well, it's never too late Maybe it's too late to go back and live a life of you kind of Having all that the whole time, but I don't think anybody does, but you know, I mean for me I'm if I'm fortunate enough to be able to hold the line like what's important You know, it when if I look and I say what's important to me? I think that I would have to lean towards A certain value system. I think my mother was instrumental in that I think that you know how you treat people the kind of man you are Honesty try to be honest always you know have integrity have have When you do something do it with every cell. Yeah, in your body. Yeah, you know, be a good dad be a good husband be a good friend Be a good man. Yeah, you know courage is part of that. I think there's just all these things and If you just looked at those and you said, okay, here's the ten commandments, you know Not a long list. It's the only ten of them just try to live like that and seems like the That seems to be challenging enough. It's a pretty simple thing. It's not complicated. I mean, I think we've been We've complicated things and confused things In a way to distract The other opposing force to the other opposing force, you know to distract but I think that that Seems like we have a hard enough time just doing that. I can't we're doing all this elaborate stuff and I'm like we can't even barely just You know have integrity love your you know Love yourself. Love your wife. Love your kids. You know be a good friend like, you know be a good, you know I mean it's just okay. There's there's five seconds this can you do those like we're doing all this stuff But it's people trying to figure out the meaning of the world and they haven't they're not even being a good friend on a daily basis That's why I said even when you talk about health and wellness. I'm like okay cool Just how are you eating? How much sunlight are you how dark is how well are you sleeping? What water are you drinking? What movement are you doing? How are your relationship? I mean, that's like No one can even do that and then they want to talk about all this, you know Hack this and do that. I'm just like okay, whatever. Like cool. Yeah, and there's a you know, there could be a There could be a you know a moment or a specific thing that can that could be useful, but yeah Yeah, it's almost like we're trying to hack our way into You know just give me a pill and then I can take that makes me have a good life And in some ways to avoid discomfort. Oh, yeah, you know always to avoid challenge Yeah to avoid which sounds like so much of your joy and aliveness has come on the other side of that experience Well, it seems to have such good Well, there's just such good reward from that, you know, there's just reward like there's reward from the struggle There's reward from the discomfort. There's just always it's like And you're gonna, you know, we talk about like you're gonna be uncomfortable So do you would you like to choose the how you're gonna be uncomfortable? Or would you like to chose it for you and I'm like I'd like to choose it Because maybe I can choose some things that I can deal with instead of no, you're gonna be uncomfortable And this is what it is and like I don't want that you don't get a choice because you didn't You didn't choose a few discomforts on the way they could avoid a big discomfort on the end Yeah, yeah, so yeah, and and it is a human condition right to look for the path of least resistance Well water, so that's what we do and in an in an environment that is extremely violent and dangerous for some organism as fragile as we are In the in nature That's a very useful thing like that's a very like the path of least resistance and avoiding discomfort Made us survive so in a way, it's like okay cool great great You know, I would say great mechanism beautiful mechanism, but not when There is nothing That we're gonna come across not when nothing there is when there's no, you know, so then we create it right then we create yeah things to kind of fulfill the need and then you know, it's like now we avoid Our avoidance of our things that have already been designed to avoid things Yeah, now we're like three four tears in and we're like hey, we're avoiding the avoiding the avoiding the avoiding and it's like Well, no, we're not doing anything. No cars are gonna drive us up and the food's gonna go and it's gonna chew for us And then it's gonna be like you're gonna be like I'm gonna be so unhappy Oh, my will be so and oh so unhappy. Yeah, yeah, because we're not we're not Ultimately in our essence. Yeah, we're not we're not having we're not getting You know, we're not getting the rewards. Yeah, I mean that that what you're talking about decalapses Like the difference between survival and living. Yeah, you know, like the formula to survive is not the formula for life No, and most people are living by the formula for survival and hoping that it'll give them life. Yeah, and it sounds like you've done Like if you were to decode then the formula for life based on what we're talking about that Can we decode both what's the formula for survival which is how a lot of humans move through the world and if they would have wanted sort of like reorient to understand a formula for life, what would those two be? I mean, if you want to simplify it and you say the formula for survival would be at any cost, at any cost, and the formula for life would be at no cost and no cost, no at no compromise, at no at no like, you know, that you want that you don't want a wrong people, you don't want to, you don't want to do, you know, you don't want to lose your compass, your values, your moral, you're like, you don't want to, you know, I mean, I would, if to simplify it like that, if I wanted to go, that's what I would be, I would be like, yeah, no, there's no nothing you could give me that I would take that would be like, hey, if you give me that, then I'll just lose all my values and I'll just compromise everything and do whatever I need to do for this thing that I think is valuable, that would not work. So let's go to the, to the, you know, because that's the one side, the one side is like, you know, what are they say? Like lose your, you know, gain your life to lose your soul. I don't want to lose my life, but I don't, I definitely would prefer to not lose my soul more. So I'm going on now and like, I prefer not to lose my soul more than I know than not to lose my life. So what I'm hearing you say in that is I'd rather give my life to lose my soul. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to lose my life, but I don't want to lose my soul a lot more. My life's gone, I'm going to lose my life. It's all the way in a way you're like, it's like trying to keep something that's, that's going to, that's ending. Now you want to hold on to something that's going to end and give up something that's never going to end. Again, there's this math, let me go with the not-ending one. Like, I'll stick for the not-ending. Let me take that one in there. Yeah, because it's ending, you know, this thing's going to end. This thing's not going to end. So I mean, let's drag it out as long as we can. Do you have a relationship to that? And like, is that something you think about often? Yeah. I mean, death, do I think about death a lot? I mean, I think I've been forced to. It hasn't been a lot. It's not like I'm like, I don't really want to think about dying, but I'm like, I'm out at sea right now and I'm kind of far from everywhere. I could die right now. I'm at the bottom of the ocean or at the bottom of an avalanche or whatever, just, you know. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's important to, to, to be honest that way. Like, right to have not be governed by it, but to be like, let's not not think about it. It's not pretend like it's not, I mean, because I think if you do, if you're aware, first of all, we're all going to die. And so far, we haven't mitigated that. And I really, I don't want to. So whatever these guys are planning to do to avoid dying, it's all theirs. I'm good. I don't want to not die. So that's the first thing I go right off the bat. We're all going to die. And if someone told you you, we have something that would help, that would, that would help you evade death, you'd say no. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, 100 years of this stuff. I'm good. I don't need 200 years of this. This. What's going on? I mean, I like the right ways. He said I could go to a planet that, you know, everybody was harmonious and we were all, you know, artists destroying everything and killing each other. I might be like, cool, yeah, I'll most afraid forever. I can do that with my family and people I love and, you know, for sure. I'm, I'm in. But yeah, this thing, no, I'm just like that. So that's, let's get that under the, you know, like, no, I'm not, then you download your chip and I don't know your consciousness in a chip. Oh, yeah, no. You'd be setting your soul in some ways in that. Well, you know, because you couldn't, maybe that's the place where you'd never be able to, you'd be trapped, could be like, could be purgatory, could be some, put your chip over here and then you could never be released. The release is death, right? So then the death is the release. But it'll say if we, what does that mean? Let's the release is death. What does that mean? It means when you die, you're set free. You're free. You're just, you've, you're, you lose the change of the body, the change of the earth, the great, the thing that's holding the, this thing's hurts, it breaks, it's, you know, I mean, it's amazing. It's a miracle. Let's not be kidding. Let's not get ourselves, but it's temporary, you know, it comes from the dirt, goes back to the dirt. So there's a temporary loop. But I, but I like, but let's go back to the, you know, that about thinking about dying. Yes. So we know we're going to die, right? And if you know, you're going to die and you think about that you're going to die. And every day, it's like, why, why is there such a great thing? I'm not such a, why is there such a thing about, okay, if today was the last day, you were going to be alive. What would you do? What would I do? Well, I'm saying, but I'm saying that concept of today's the last day of your life, you're going to die. What would you do? And so in a way, if you looked at it, if you, every day you kind of thought that, and I wish I was, could do that more and get better at that, that every day, I thought I was going to die. That was going to be the day of my last day. What would I do? I want to do it myself. And I definitely make sure that I said things to people that I needed to say to them. And I would, so I would, in a way, conduct myself probably in a, I would think for me, pretty beautiful way. Like I would think, well, maybe some people this last day, I'm going to die. I'm going to go rob a bank. Okay, well, what do you got some other problems? But, but if I looked at it that way and I conducted myself like today was the last day, I was going to be alive. And, and what would I do? And I definitely call people telling my level, I would go, you know, spend time with my family. I'd go in the ocean and ride away. I mean, technically, I'd probably do, post what I'm doing every day. So to live a life where you're conscious of death and you're living in a way that you think today could be the day that you die, I, for me, I would be like, that's probably an amazing life. That's probably an amazing way to live. Like what a, what a spirit, what a person is a, for me, would be aspirational. I'd be aspiring to that. I'd be like, that is inspirational. Like I would like to live like that. And, uh, and had that kind of appreciation. You know, as you'd be appreciating everything, you'd be appreciating the meal. Yeah. You, you, you, you appreciate this little breeze is blowing on us as you bit the light, the tree, all of it, you'd be in, you'd be in awe of it, trying to just absorb all you could at every moment before you weren't. It sounds like that's the most honest way to live. Like I said, aspirational, like it'd be nice. It'd be nice to, you know, and maybe there's moments, you know, you try to do that. I think when you, when you have it near death experiences, I mean, not out of body ones, but when you have near death, that's where death is present near. You can, it's just not too far or it's, you know, when, and however those are, and I mean, people, people have, a lot of people have them, you know, maybe once in a lifetime or twice, whatever, but I'll tell you what, after you go home and you're like, hi, honey, I love you and here's my children and here's my dog and, you know, like you just absorb and take everything in. I think that's, for me, that's like, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, that's just gorgeous. Yeah, like, you know, that's a gorgeous thing. Yeah, like you said, a way to live. There's no word that I've heard you use more on this podcast, but also I listen to you on ritual show a few years back. And there's no word that I've heard you use more than honest. Use that word a lot. And I personally would ask you this beyond camera, because I'm really curious to know what your relationship is with that word. What does that mean to you? Tell the truth. Tell the truth. Like, I mean, what is on us? Tell the truth. It's not tricky. Tell, tell the truth. Sometimes it's not comfortable. And sometimes it's better to not say things, you know, like my mom used to say, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all, but tell the truth. Yeah, honest, tell the truth. And that's, that's a challenge. Like I said, I gave you, I talked about a list before or just do that one. Just never mind all that stuff. Just do that one. That one. Just try that one. See how long, how well if you can tell the truth. And the truth, not a distorted truth, not a, you know, variation of the truth, but the truth. Why do you think that's been so important as the underpinning of your value system? Well, first of all, you never have to look back. and you don't have to remember. You don't have to remember what you said. You don't have for what you did. You tell the truth, it's done. It's done. It's so worth. It's like, yeah. And then also the feels good. So she is as hard as it may be at times. It feels so good after. It's like it feels so good after. Yeah. This sounds like the heaviness that a lot of people feel in some ways could be attributed back to the fact that they're carrying the weight of past lies. Well, they don't end. They just grow. They're bigger and you got to put more lies on lies to cover lies. It's like there's no end to it. Yeah. There's no end to that. You know, and then listen to it, all the truths haven't been exactly comfortable. Not exactly fun. I mean, but the sooner, I mean, I think the more you do it and the more I, like I said, the more I try to do it and the more consistent I am, the easier it gets. Like a muscle. The easier it gets. Beautiful muscle. Just just easier and easier and easier. And then pretty soon you end up living in a way that you don't have to have lies. So then you don't have to have lies. So then all of a sudden you still don't even have to go through that you have to tell truths that are hard because they're not hard. So you haven't done something in a way. So it's like a it's a favorite to us. It's like, why do we have all these? Like why is all this? There's this ancient wisdom that's passed down to us. Right? You know, why do we have, hey, you know, be married and be a monogamous and be the thing and do all this stuff? Like why is all that? Why do we tell the truth? Like why it's it's for our it's not for it's for us. It's to make our lives easier. Make them more simple. It's just to make it so that we don't have to deal with the burdens of all the other things that come with not doing that. Yeah. In a way, it's just a favorite of us. It's like, hey, here's an opportunity. Here's a little, you know, here's a here's a here's an outline. Try it out. It might be helpful. And then you start doing it and you're like, wow, this works for you. Yeah. It's not that easy. I mean, it's not like it's easy. Sometimes the easier thing is just the wrong thing can be easier at times. But especially initially, but as you go, what you realize is that the wrong things are much harder. And they build and over time they become they just perpetuate each other. And before you know it, it's like then that's all you're doing. And that's all that's just, you know, what is it? What is it? What is it? They say, you know, you'll know them by their fruit. One of my favorite TED Talks is by a woman called Caroline Miss. Okay. And the TED Talk is called the choices that can change your life. It's interesting. You just said, like just do that, just tell the truth because at the end of the TED Talk, she's just she shared a few things and she boiled it down to one simple thing. She says, liars don't heal. She says, so you can eat all the weak grass you want, but an honest person who eats cat food will go further than you. She's not wrong. She's not wrong. I mean, a lot of times people are trying to make up for stuff, right? By having this some kind of ritual discipline, like I do this, I do that, I do this. Like a lot of it's like a, you know, trying to make up for some other something else than that. And you can't, you can't make up for it, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. There's no such things escaping the truth. No. Sounds like a lot of the health world is an attempt to biohacuate around some of the most basic things that are required to feel life. Exactly. No. Exactly. It's interesting to watch, actually, because for me, I'm just like, hey, cool, save the data, save the, you know, save all the things, save all the new latest that it just just let's just go like, let's just go baseline. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's like they want to build a house, but the foundation's completely destroyed. It's like, no, just build the foundation, put a tent up on it. It's going to, it's not going to go anywhere. It's going to be cool. Like no problem. But you got to build that, that bottom, you know, and then again, it's a daily thing, right? It's a daily challenge. It's not just like, hey, I did that. I'm done foundation is built. This is a maintenance. This is ongoing. There's no, you know, and I mean, we're all falling short, right? This is the nature of being in, you know, being in the physical. Like there's rust, there's mold, there's, you know, there's, there's, if we're all, there's no, there's no, uh, there's no like, no one without, what do they say? You know, let he with house sin, cast the first stone. No one could, there's no one could throw the rock, because everybody has their, we all have it. We're all, you know, we're all human, right? We're all just trying to live day to day. Yeah. Yeah. I want to go into being a dad of three daughters. No, you're talking about serious stuff. Yeah. All the best is dumb. Yeah. You're talking about serious stuff. That's serious. That's, that's serious. Now you're getting into the dad. Yeah. Dad world. Yeah. What has changed about your view of life before and after you have kids? Uh, well, before I had children, I thought I knew something. I didn't think I know everything. After I had kids, I realized I don't know anything. So let's just start there. We'll start with, I thought I knew something. I had my girls, and now I realized I absolutely know nothing. And if I thought I did know something, they've made sure that I know that I don't know anything. So they're just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't know anything. I'm like, okay, I'll go with that. Uh, well, and, and I think the vulnerability too, I think there's a vulnerability that that you learn being a father that you don't, you can't experience as being a husband or just, you know, a person like I think you're not, you don't know what true vulnerability is until you have a child. I know you don't know what vulnerable. I don't care how vulnerable you ever thought you were in whatever situation you thought you were in. At least in for me, nothing ever has made me feel more vulnerable and more helpless. Uh, then, then children, you know, than having, having children and just, you know, there they go off in the car seat and to the freeway or, you know, you know, you know, the cold can't breathe or, you know, they're often the Middle East somewhere or whatever, you know, like, whatever it is. It's like, you know, no, no vulnerability. Nothing you could do to me could make me feel vulnerable like that. Yeah. It sounds like for you who has based his philosophy around this sense of life and being alive and then having children and maybe at the core of what you want to do is keep them safe, but you know that in order to live their life, they have to almost abide by your philosophy. How does that make you feel? Well, I also have to let them fly. I gotta let them, I gotta stand back and so, okay, fly, you know, and so, I mean, again, lead by example, you know, you can say what you want, they're watching what you're doing and at certain points, you wonder if they're listening and when I say listening, observing what you're doing and, you know, picking up any of it, and then as they go, you start to see it come out, you see little glimpses of it, you're like, oh, cool, there it is, because you're wondering, you're like, oh, is this in there? I mean, I would think that, you know, the way we've lived, the way we've been with each other, the way we've been to them, you just, when they get there at certain stages, you're like, oh, I wonder if they did any of that go in, you know, and then you see, you're all cool, some of it, and we'll just see how it, you know, how it manifests itself, but yeah, the, you know, being a dad, I tell young dads, they go, you know, being a father is like building a samurai sword and they go, what do you mean? And I go, well, to make a samurai sword, you take steel, you heat it up until it's red hot, you beat it with a hammer, and then you put it in a bucket of ice, then you take it back out, you heat it back up, you beat it with a hammer, you stick it back in the mug, and you just do that over and over, like over and over and over, and eventually it's the strongest steel in the world. And so your children take you, they heat you up, they beat you with a hammer, and they stick you in a bucket of ice, and they do that over, and over, and over, and over, and then I feel like it's, for me personally, as a person, as a man, that that's my evolution, like as a man, as in my process of, of, you know, boy, teenage, young man, mid older, you know, husband, you know, father, yeah, like that's the part of the evolution, that's your growth, right? And I told, you know, I always say, it's called parenting, not childing, it's for me, not them, for me, not them. So you think it's for them, you think, oh, I'm the parent, it's for them. No, it's for you. Because ultimately, it's your, the tempering of your soul, it's the tempering of your soul, it's your, the vulnerability, the thing, all the things that they bring out in you, you know, I mean, love them, keep them safe. Okay, you know, give them some values, they're going to be good, but the whole process of it, it's, it's for you. It's, it's for your evolution, for your growth, for your expansion, if there is one. One of my orientation towards life, you know, one of my orientation towards life, it sounds like it's opened you up to an abundance of lessons. Well, second only of the ocean, second only to the ocean, yeah. Yeah. you know, relationship definitely does it, you know, it's having children. I mean, I think the whole avoidance of having a family and people not thinking it's going to get in the way of, you know, their career and the whole, you know, when you're young, run around, you know, get chicks, like all that stuff is, those are all, that's all deception and distraction. Yeah. It is. It's designed to break up the, the power of the family. It's like, you know, that, because that unit, that family unit is, that's the, that's part of the divine. That's part of the, that's part of what we're doing. That's what we're doing down here. Like we're part of our thing is, I mean, without that, none of us are here to be clear. Yeah. And when that's disrupted or broken, then the whole system is broken. They're, then everything breaks down from there. Like once that, once we start, you know, having kids in test tubes and whatever else, other stuff that, where they're going with it, it's like the departure is, yeah, it's departure from our, from our essence, from our lessons, from our, from what we are. And the departure from the lessons, from the, you know, I mean, first of all, as soon as you stop having moms that are healthy and dads that are healthy. And, I mean, the children are just, you know, the children are, they're going to be off-camber. They're going to, they're going to, you know, and then you can't be surprised. The behavior follows the, the physicality. I feel a little correlate like physically sound with mentally sound. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there's a relationship between, yeah. The stomach, the heart, the brain, the system. Yeah. It's fascinating to me that, you know, that one of the greatest sort of universal laws that has underpinned life forever is that we think the destination is everything and we realize the journey is everything. And we is a culture of trying to cut that piece short. Now, let's just get there, you know, hack my way there. You're just missing, you just missed the whole moment, happy thing we've ever been as a result. Because we didn't go to the grocery store and bring the grocery store. Kind of ironic in a way. And it's, there's some irony in that, I guess, you know, again, God has a, has humor. God has humor. Well, one of the, maybe this is humor, maybe it isn't, but you've been coined as one of the most masculine men on earth. And yet you've had three daughters and you live in a house with four women. And I'm curious how that, one, how it may have softened you. But two, if I'm curious to know if it's changed your perspective on men, well, I've always liked women. I've been, I mean, I love my mom. I'm always an amazing woman. And I've, and I've, I mean, when I was young, I always wanted to be surrounded by women. I didn't realize that they were going to be my daughters. So I was like, yeah, I want to be surrounded by women. And then I'm like, then I had three daughters on it. Wow, maybe I didn't want to be surrounded by my mom. My mom had a saying that the way God punishes you is he gives you a ask for. So, but yeah, the, I mean, I didn't need three daughters and a beautiful wife to know that women are smarter. I only needed my wife. But now I've, you know, now I've confirmed it multiple times after getting it again. Okay. Superior, you know, superior, superior species. That's good. I'm fine with it. Yeah, I mean, for me, I feel like I'm so fortunate to be able to have that, you know, to have, have these, have an opportunity to be an example of a man that I would like my daughters to be with. So, or if they look, if they, you know, if they so choose find a man that, that, that, you know, that I have an opportunity to conduct myself in a way that I would like them to be treated. So, like, I want them to be treated the way I treat Gabby. Maybe it's not the way, but it's the way I believe that would be I would like for them to have a partner that was, you know, like, well, conducted themselves in that way. And then also I have the opportunity to make them strong, like strong, I don't mean strong physically, they're, they're, they're powerful girls, but just strong spirit, like strong in themselves, you know, they're competence, they're, their independence, they're, you know, I have an opportunity to do that. And it's a big responsibility. Yeah, one of my favorite quotes and I'm not a parent, I am to be by the grace of God one day, a parent, but there's a quote that says, your children will rarely succeed in listening to you, but they will always succeed in becoming you. And the greatest chance you have to influence the next generation is to become the you that you wish they would be. Verse for me, I could, I could easily say that and it would be appropriate. What are those ways of being that you think you and Gabby have sort of committed yourself to embodying that you wish your, your daughters would take on? Well, we're all respect for one another. I think that's a big piece of it, that the respect that we have for one another, our individuality, you know, and that we both have things we're passionate about. You know, those are things that I want them to, you know, find like the thing that they, that they're passionate about that they, that they enjoy that they like. I mean, for me, I feel like if, if I could just have content humans, I'd be like, hey, I can content people. That would be like a monumental thing because I see very few in the world. When I look, I go, there's very few content humans. I don't, I barely know any. And so in a way, I'm like, if I could, if I could be the father of a content human, good job. He did a good job. But, you know, again, back to those values my mom instilled in me, I hope I instilled in them just to hold honesty, integrity, loyalty, just all the things that I, you know, that I hope for them, that I try to be, you know, again, keyword dry. Yeah. Yeah. And you're in this process. An endless process. And you are, did it, is it 28 years you've been? Yeah. 20 years. My parents have been in the process of a divorce for the past couple of years. And it seems to be quite common place, more maybe now than ever, that that is happening. Yeah. And I don't, I don't know the full, full reason as to why maybe more choice. And I don't know what that is. But like the recipes of an honest, powerful and powering relationship. What is required of somebody and a kind of two people to create the sense of unity. But also my perspective on your relationship is that it's not boring. It doesn't, it doesn't feel boring. And that, you know, most people are just with the person because they've made a commitment, but they're dying inside every day. So to create a powerful relationship, you know, what has been required of you both? Well, first of all, they just study with relationships. And they said the only key factor in any successful relationship was that the man respected the woman. That's it. That was the key factor. No, that's not just it. But I have immense respect for Gabby. And then we both take our personal responsibility for making ourselves happy. What does that mean? Means I have to, I have to do what I need to do in order to make myself happy. And she does what she needs to do to make herself happy. And then we come together with happiness. Wow, I don't have to, I don't rely on her to do something to make me happy. And she doesn't put that burden on me. So we put the burden of making, you know, bringing our own individual fulfillment on ourselves. And then we come together with that. So her pursuit and for her career and all her work and training and all the stuff that she does, I'm highly supportive. Yeah. Like I'm highly supportive of her, of her, I'm not like, oh, are you doing this again? And like it's taking away from me. She's highly supportive of me. I mean, sometimes beyond my own self support. Like, I'll be like, I'm not going to say, oh, you need to go sort, you know, go on that sort of thing, do the thing. Or you know, she's in no matter what, no matter she'll adjust schedules and be like, hey, you need to, you know, you need to do that. And so I think that, that might be the biggest one. Yeah, that I've ever heard, like your responsible for your own happiness. She's responsible for hers. Yeah. Yeah. Because why would I, how could I, how, first of all, anytime anyone is putting the burden of their happiness on someone else, that is a recipe for disaster. It just is because you can, I can barely do it myself. How can I expect her to do it? Like, oh, yeah, if she does conduct herself in a certain way, then I'll be happy. No, I mean, that's just a setup for failure. And so in a way, it's like, hey, and then, and then a lot of it has to do with people don't even know where it takes to make themselves happy. So find that out. That's why I said to my daughters, content human, first figure out what it is. And I don't care if you have to subsidize it. Like, I've been blessed to pursue something that really brings me joy that I love to do. It terrifies me. It does, it does everything it's done. And I made a career of it. Congratulations, right? She has pursued a career that she's done the things that she wanted to do, the way she wanted to do it. And so, and it's brought her happiness. And so in a way, it's like that's the, you know, that's your responsibility. Like that's for that. And I think that's a big piece of it is, again, it's almost back to like what we were talking about earlier with like, just, we're just subbing out everything like, hey, we don't go to the grocery store. It comes to deliver out our house. We don't do the thing. This gets delivered. We don't even drive the car. The car drives itself now. It's like everything's getting subbed out. So now it's like, I'm going to sub out my responsibility and make myself happy because that takes work. First of all, I get to figure out what makes you happy. Then you got to go do it. And it might, and then it might involve some suffering. Like I can go do heat nice and do five, six rounds. And I'll sit on the inside of the house and just be like, I mean, it would have been easier just to sit in the house, but I won't have that big grin on my face because I went out and just did, and she'll go down and, you know, bang iron or, you know, do the take all just do all the stuff that she does. And she'll be like, hi, honey, you know, I'm so it's, so I, again, I think it's easy to just shift the burden onto the other person and then be like, oh, yeah, or you're not conducting yourself in a certain way. So I think that's a piece of it. I mean, I don't think there's I mean, I think we're also quick to give up. We're in the give up time in our world like we give trophies to losers and, you know, we give up like we have a tendency to give up quickly. Like, hey, this isn't working for me. I'm done. I mean, it's like, okay, well, I couldn't have done that. We've gabby and I had plenty of times in our relationship where we had things going on that was like, okay, I don't need this stuff. I've done, like, and had we done that, we would have never, ever gotten to these levels of love and passion and respect and all this stuff that comes from the effort comes from the effort. If you're going to do a hundred mile run and you run 20 miles and say, I'm done, you're not going to feel what it feels like to run 40 and then 60 and then 80 and get to 100 miles and be like, yeah, I ran a hundred miles. So I think there's there's rewards for the effort in every discipline and everything that we get. There's rewards and but you, but you got to do it. And it may be uncomfortable and it may be, you know, and another, another interesting thing is not being right, not being right. Like, there's a great, a great quote from a guy that said, you know, be right 10,000 times in your relationship and then tell me what kind of relationship you have. You won't have one. So it's like, I mean, I'll say sorry. Yeah. I got no problem with sorry. Yeah. I'll say sorry if I'm right. Yeah. I don't need to, I don't need to beat that right all the time to be, I'm okay. I don't, I don't have to be, do you have to be right always and be right? Good luck with that. It seems like it takes a man who's congruent in himself to be able to do that. Like, there's a quote that I love in that vein that is being right is being right is a poor man's version of self worth. Definitely. Well, because it's easy because you can always just be right because you can make up some story. Yeah. You can always, I have a belief we can make a make up a narrative that justifies any behavior. We could make up a narrative that justifies any behavior. Of course. I could just say, I was wrong. Well, I just make a nice story of the justifies any behavior, anything I done. Like if you look at all the radical stuff people are doing, they have beautiful stories that just justify all I know. I know. I know. Beautiful. Like you just woven and beautiful web of fairy tale that makes it justifiable to do anything. And you're like, okay, well, that's still wrong. Do you think that's one of the, one of the dangers of AI, for example, is that people are putting their choices through this platform and being reaffirmed in their own dysfunctional narrative? Yeah. I, yeah. I mean, I mean, for me, I feel like I'm allergic to AI a little bit. I'm a little bit of allergic to a part of it is. I think it's, it's, it's definitely a useful tool for fear. AI is a useful tool for fear. Yeah. It's a useful tool for fear. It's a good way to scare, make people scared. And that's scared animal's cooperate. That's scared. And they do stupid things, too. I always tell people, I go, if you're going to see an animal, do something really stupid, put a burden in the room and then open a window. And the bird will go in the corner of the room and just swim again, fly and not swim. That'd be a fish fly against the wall and bang its head on the wall. And there's an open door next to the bird. And there's an open window. But he's in the corner just because he scared. But there's a door. All he has to do is just go, oh, there's a door and go out the door. So in a way, I think it's, for me, I look at AI a little bit like that. And I'm still not convinced that it's going to be all that's going to be in do all it's going to do because no matter what, it still only has the information that we put in it. It's human information. So it's like, I don't care how it could combine it and dig from the deep and pull and get every access, everything in a second, but it's still just all of our stuff. And all of our stuff, not great. It's not so great. But I also know, I mean, I don't know, I should say I also believe it's a tool and tools can be very useful when used for the proper job. But if you use a saw to try to hammer a nail, probably going to be a problem. But you know, they mean salsa for sewing, you know, hammers are for nailing like I think. So I'm, but I, because I have some friends that are very AI deep, my only, my biggest fear is people's relationship with AI. And what's it doing to them? Like it's, I see the possibility of just people being swallowed by it. Like it, like I've been, and I see it, like I see it engulfing people. And then it's like almost like their new best friend and they're, they're, they're confident. And then they're, they're, they're, they're having like a, they think it's, you know, they can connect to God through it and stuff. And I'm like, well, you can connect to God through everything. First of all, that's not false, but maybe not the God that you might want to, you know, the part of God. You might not be the part of God that we, that you want to connect to. Yeah. One of the things that has been like, even I've noticed it challenging for me, which is interesting because this podcast is called You Choose. And at large, sort of philosophy or mission behind the show is that, you know, choices can change your life and the importance of choice and decision. And when I begin to notice myself outsourcing my decision making to these platforms, it may be the greatest corruption of my spirit, is when I use it to ask it what I should do. And I see a lot of people doing that. Yeah. Like outsourcing their decision making. Well, because you're, you're, you're, you've just outsourced your decision making to a bunch of bad decisions. What a philosophy. What a gate for me. No, I'm saying, like, look at it. You go, well, I just outsourcing my decision making to who? Oh, a bunch of bad decision makers. Okay. Well, and then you're going to be surprised when a bad decision is made. Yeah, I, I mean, I, I, first of all, it's so, it's so infrequent that you really see good decisions being made. It's so rare. You're like, wow, that was a good decision. That seems to be a novelty. So then you're like, I'm like, okay, well, if that's rare, then it means you got to really dig down to actually make those kind of decisions. So you're definitely not going to find it on that day. No, I think, I think that that, that tool, like I do appreciate the ability to access information, like the philosopher's stone, like you can pull stuff and we're getting stuff exposed and seeing things in a way that we never had the opportunity, which I think is amazing. Again, bright light, our shadow, right? But which, which, what's the tool being used for? So when it's good, it's amazing. Yeah. But when it's not good, not amazing. It's so like destructive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's, and then the whole, you know, the use of control and manipulation and the things that we always seem to lean towards, right? Our default mechanisms and our species is, it's all about that, right? It's all about, you know, suppression of information, distortion of information, like, you know, all that confusion of information, all the stuff that they do to try to block us when I say they, I mean, the energy that is drawing from those fear, guilt, depression, like all that negative vibration, like that thing that feeds on that stuff is trying to cultivate it for, because it wants them, it wants that, it wants that vibration, it wants that low tone. So it's like the low tone, cultivates the low tone. Did I, you say in something in a video, I think it was maybe set on the sand about the vibration of feet on the ground? Well, I mean, the earth is charged with a electrical vibration, right? That was it. So the earth is charged with a specific, and I think it's what do you say 6.8 or 6.2 or something hurts? So that, that, that, when it, when everything's not, you know, power lines and radar and just all this up that the humans have done, but that, so that is the exact same frequency as a healthy immune system. Coincidentally, back to the ocean, to the volume of the body, and here we are again. So that's the same. Those things are exactly the same. So when you're barefoot on wet grass or on, it can even be concrete because it's porous. The beach is the best. The volcanic, volcanic, you know, volcanic caldera is incredibly, incredibly great. Then you transfer the energy either if you're low, it brings your energy up. If you're high, it dissipates it. It's normally you're high. Normally, you've got too much because you're getting bombarded by every kind of magnetic field. So in a way, that's a, that's like therapy. You know, that's, that's a therapeutic benefit. Wow. I didn't know that. I want to pull you back to Gabby for a moment. You don't have to touch on this if you don't want, but I heard her on another podcast, say that, someone asked her, what do you do to keep your relationship so alive? And she said that you schedule sex. You schedule it in. Well, whenever she says, you know, I can get the golden prize, I'm, I mean, I'm obedient, you know, it's like, what do you think? I mean, at the end of the day, they have the, they have the prize and they're the gatekeeper. So, you know, I'm, I just do what I'm told. But yeah, I mean, yeah, schedule it, make it happen. I think that it's, if you don't put effort into it, like put, put some sort of effort, like, hey, this, we're going to try to be together here or do this and stuff goes by, days go by, weeks go by, years go by. And pretty soon you're like, have we had it? Do we have it? Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a critical part of a healthy relationship. It's like mandatory. Yeah. Like what, what do you, otherwise, if this not happen, and then you're probably looking around on the street, just your male, like, you know, I mean, I, was an old saying, doesn't matter, we get baptized as long as you eat at home. It's like, just you see. So, but yeah, the, the, there's a great story about, uh, uh, what's his name? The, the, the guy that did all this feats and stuff. He used to swim and drag boats and, oh, I can't remember his name right now. But he was, uh, they were taught, they were interviewing him. And he was 80, like 85 years old. And they said, you know, like, we don't mean to ask, but how's your sex life? And he goes, well, I have sex nearly every day. They're like, really, that's amazing. Jack LaLayne. So Jack LaLayne, they go, okay, they're interviewing, hey, I have sex nearly every day. And they're like, that's amazing. And then so then the next day they're interviewing his wife. And they say, you know, we don't mean to bring it up. But I mean, Jack says you have sex nearly every day. And she goes, absolutely. I mean, nearly on Monday and nearly on Tuesday. So, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, that's a, listen, we know that that's a healthy part of a relationship. Like if you're having, I mean, Dr. Oz said on national television, you know, the penis is the dipsick of your health. Like, if you, uh, if you're married and you don't have a regular sex life, I don't know what kind of relation, what kind of married you have unless you've got some sort of something wrong with you. But like, you're just, this is part of, I mean, this is like, you're, this is like, you know, this is foundational, foundational, sleep, sunlight, yeah, water, food, exercise, you know, yeah. But it sounds like you, the scheduling part is what's interesting to me because most people just, almost like assume it's going to happen and then life gets in the way and it never does and they want to lie. Yeah. And there's spontaneous, there's spontaneous moments. But at a certain point, you, I mean, with kids and work and things like that, you got to have, you know, you got to have, uh, you better, you got to make effort, you got to make effort. You just have to put the value on that. It's like, it's like working out. I might work out today. No, I'm working out in the morning. I'm getting up and I'm going to train. Yeah. Like it's not like I might, like I'm going to work out, you know, as I might brush my teeth, I might go to sleep, I might eat food, I might have sex. No, we're having sex with eating, we're doing those things. Yeah. Yeah. And there's things you can give kind of less of a priority, but there's certain things that you just cannot, you just can't leave to chance or leave to like, it might happen. Yeah. How do you relate to then? You just mentioned, I might work out like these sort of the new technology that's continuing to come into our lives in which we can see our biometrics virtually on our wrist, you know, like whoop, for example. And like you could wake up in the morning and it says you're 43% recovered. And that is the reason that you don't work out. If you ever want a whoop, do you, do you, do you, do you, are you? Well, I wore an aura ring at one point just because it was a few years ago. They're like, aura ring. I think they sent us a couple of, I don't know, we just like, I had somebody gave me when I just had aura ring. And when I would wake up and it said your HRV was low, don't work out, I would just go out and work twice as hard. Clear say. And then I'd see it and they go, today's optimum, you work out high. I'd, ah, maybe I'll just go for a B2WAR. Like I would just do the opposite of it. I'm just saying like, like, so I appreciate it. But like, I'm just so allergic to all that. First of all, who's the standard? What's the standard? Who's the standard? What's the standard? Who, what's the biometrics? Like, who, what are you? Are you generalizing? Men, women, the same, all women are different than men. What men? How are like my metabolism and me and you and him and him and him and him and him. We're like, it's like, these are eight different cars. One's a VA, one's a six cylinder, one's a four cylinder, one's diesel, one, I mean, it's, yeah, one's jet A, one's hydrogen. It's like, you're, how do you? So that, all of that. And then I don't want EMF on my body anyway. So we just go there. So it's not Bluetooth. So we can turn the Bluetooth off. I'm like, it's still re, it's so electric and it's on my body and my body's electric. I'm like, I think I'm good. So I mean, I, now as a reference, like, hey, as it has a, has a wear it for a month and hey, I felt like this. I slept like that. How did I feel? Okay, cool baseline. Then you know it. Then you take it off and you're like, cool, cool, it's off. It's off. And I have a reference. So I wake up today. I must have, not, I mean, I know when I wake up and I feel like I haven't had a good night's sleep. And I have a low HRV. I'm like, in some ways, it also begs, then begs the question, like, is it stripping us of our intuition? Because we don't have this in some way. Well, for sure it's doing that. And then is it also taking away like besides our intuition? Is it just another thing telling us what to do? And that's not making decisions about what to do. Like, hey, I'm today, I'm going to decide if I'm going to or I got to make that decision or. So yeah, I'm just, so that, that part of the technology, and I have friends that are high level and NASA, special for it, like all of a sudden, they just, they hate those things. They hate them. Yeah. Yeah. They hate them because, because I think they're also a distraction. Like, there's a certain and, and the lack of actual precision. Like, maybe they evolved to a certain point where they're really, but again, I think the amount of, of data points that are taken, I mean, we're electric, we're hydraulic, we're pending, we're like, have five different forces that run the system. Like, we're five, we have, so, and then looking at that and then, okay, how does the light affect me and how does the, I mean, I just, I'm like, it's like, you know, it's like measuring a wave. Somebody goes, oh, a wave, a hundred-foot wave. I'm like, a wave is a four-dimensional object. And you're going to give me the height as a reference to what's happening with a wave. I'm sorry. I'm allergic. I just doesn't, I'm like, doesn't matter to you. No. I'm about to be about bigger waves and heavier. It's not for you. I think it's a joke. I think a joke when the guys are a hundred-foot wave, seventy-eight-foot wave, seventy-nine-foot, first of all, who measured it? What kind of wave was it? Like, I, it's like, my thing is like, what would you do on a wave? Okay, how big the wave was? What did you do? Let me see what you did. Okay, you survived it. Maybe when straight. Maybe you did one turn. Okay, great. Next. Like, so for me, it's like, I'm less concerned about how big the wave was than what you do on the wave, why you were riding the wave. Like, what, what, let's see it. Let's see your, let's see your performance. What a philosophy for life that is. If the wave was life, I don't care how long your life was. Yes, I care what you did with your life. Exactly. Did you survive it? What did you, what did you think? If you turned, what did you do with your life? We have a saying in Hawaii. It's not who you are, it's how you are. It's not who you are. It's how you are. Like, we'll have celebrities big, you know, well-known people come to Hawaii. And we don't care. We're like, I don't care who you are. How are you? Are you polite? Are you respectful? Are you kind? Are you generous? Now we're talking. Now we're talking. Yeah, show me, show me, show me who you are. Show me how you are, by who you are. Not, I heard, you know, you see, that's so-and-so. I could care less. Because people, you have had the experience, obviously, you've become mega-popular. you know, in the context of the world, you ever felt sort of misperceived in Hawaii as a result of? Well, I'm always going to be a holly, right? I'm always going to be, I mean, so far, my skin's not going to change color. So I'm always going to be blonde-headed, holly guy, which that's what I am. I am what I am. But I can't change that, but I can definitely change how I am. I can definitely affect how I conduct myself, what I do, how I treat people, all of those things. That's those are the things that I'm in control of. I'm not in control of the color of my hair, I mean, unless I dye it, you know, I'm not in control of the color of my skin, I'm not in control of how tall I am. I'm not in control of these things, but the things I am in control of, I try to, you know, I try to be, you know, responsible for. Is there been any culture that has had more of an influence on your life than the Hawaiian culture? No. No. Not even close. You know, even you can't, there's no, first of all, very few cultures actually intact, who's intact. I mean, I think that if I said, what's had the biggest influence on my life culturally? Good people. The culture they from, oh, they're from the good people culture. Oh, yeah, those have had a lot of impact on me. People, they're kind people, generous people, big impact, a lot of, I know in a lot of generous people in my life, big impact, big, big, like the most impact of a, you know, of a human on me, kind, generous, loyal, you know, make impact. I mean, it seems though, I mean, I don't know anywhere near as much of the Hawaiian culture as you, but the brief understanding that I do have, it seems like there is some practices that sort of underlace the value system that you've sort of placed upon your life, you know, like one of the big ones for me is hell upon upon or the art or the science or whatever you want to call it, a forgiveness and the ability to let things go. Go. Yeah. Like also, island culture, an island has a certain kind of, when you're on an island, you're on a by ocean, you, there's certain things you have to have to, you know, make, make existence. Okay. Like there's certain, certain things that, you know, no one's going anywhere. There's a lot of accountability, right? Givingness is beautiful, the Hawaiian, I mean, like I said, the Hawaiian culture, the generosity, which I think, somewhere in, in, there's a relationship with forgiveness and generosity and then humility, those are all tied together, right? Being humble, being generous, you know, and having forgiveness. Yeah. It's hard to, I think it'd be hard to be humble and, and generous, but not forgiving. It's hard to be humble and generous, but not forgiving. How could you? How could you be humble and generous and not be forgiving, I said, they'll be impossible, like how could you not, right? Sounds like that's not, yeah, there's a recipe for resentment there for sure, you know. Yeah. Of course you'd be forgiving, humility, okay, I'm wrong, I'm right, I'm not, I'm not proud, I'm humble, I'm generous, I'm willing to give forgiveness, give forgiveness as a present, I'm giving you something, it's called forgiveness, it's a good gift, it's a beautiful, good for you, good for you, good for you, good for them, good for the giver, yeah, yeah, I mean good for the receiver, but probably better for the giver. Would you say that that's been a big part of you that I should be happy, like the ability to forgive, has that been a requirement for forgiveness? Not a requirement, I think it's, I think it's, again it's, you hope you learn it, but it's like it's in your best interest, when you go through the process of forgiving or you're forgiven, you probably want to work pretty hard and not putting yourself in that position again, because you don't want to have to forgive, or you don't want to have to be forgiven. So again, I think these are like lessons and opportunities where you get, you know, you get a chance to, to, you get a chance to, you know, it's like lying, like, hey, you lie, you lie, you're like, tell the truth and then you're like, pretty similar, like, I'm just not going to lie, because I don't want to have to be in a position of having to lie some more or having to tell the truth about lying. Yeah, so it's like killing your spirit, killing your life, yeah, that's what I mean, listen, at the end of the day, all these things we're talking about end up being like, this is spirit damaging. So let's, I just want to try to avoid spirit damage at this point and then we talk about dying and we go, okay, death. And then what's how, you know, what's happening, it's like, okay, cool, I don't mind a couple of fake hips and broken legs and stuff, but let me not, let's try to, you know, mitigate spirit damage, because that's the thing that's going to keep going and this thing's going to get, you know, plant food. So like, okay, cool, don't worry about the plant food. Let's worry about keeping the spirit intact the best we can given our skills and our capability. I'm, that's all, that's what I'm on, which is death is constantly reminding you of that. Like, hey, okay. When I die, my spirit's going to continue on, you're going to shed this, like, taking the shirt off right now. And so what do you want to do by your spirit? It's like, I don't want to, I don't want to take my shirt off and then just have us, you know, spirit with a bunch of bruises and cuts and, you know, breaks. I'd like to, if I can, you know, within, within, I mean, within my capacity, without, without being a muck on a hill, you know, yeah, it doesn't have a family, it doesn't have kids, it doesn't have a wife, it doesn't have all the other things that, that are challenging. Yeah. It's the aspirations with the ocean still in particular, like, big ones, yeah, crazy ones, but it's that that's, I don't think there's an end to it. I think that's one thing that I've been blessed with is that every time I kind of arrive at a place that I've been pursuing, I would say the best goal is an elusive one. So it's in the distance and you're marching towards it and then you either get to it, it moves and then you, oh, there it, and then you go to it and then it shifts again. And so, you know, you still need to achieve, you still need to arrive at it in a way, a piece of it, part of it to keep you going because otherwise you get discouraged, but I like an elusive one. I like one that's always moving and the ocean is forever providing for it. There's no end to it. It's like, oh, yeah, I want to do that. Okay. There's always a bigger way. There's always a longer way. I'm out there in the in the in the future and I have, I have a couple, a couple things that I'm either going to be, you know, doing and participating in or just participating in and bringing some young guys and I'll just send them over a cliff, you know, but I'll just giant ocean, you know, giant waves, giant, you know, just, you see, it has to do with a rugged, usually some rugged, some brutal, some terrible, yeah, where the humans aren't. Have you changed at all how you think about the ocean and what you choose to do in it after having kids? Oh, no. I mean, not really, like if I've changed at all, I mean, first of all, and I've talked about that I talk about this. I think anytime somebody says, well, I used to do these things and then I had kids and I stopped doing them. They're just using the kids as an excuse because they want to just stop doing it. Don't do that. The kids, the kids didn't, the kids didn't ask you to stop doing it, like you're, that's not fair on them that you put that on them. Like, oh, you put that on me. I used to do it, but then I had you and then it's like the kids like, what would I do? What would I do? So that's not fair. And that's not honest. The truth is you want to stop doing it. And so you stop doing it and then just use the kids to excuse. Just don't use the kids to just say, I want to stop doing it. I have to be just quote, I have that. That's the first one, that piece of it. Also too, I want them to see me in that who I am, like that's who I am, like see me in it, like see me in the pursuit of it, see me in the achievement of it, see me in the aftermath, like see me in the thing because again, blueprint, what are you doing? Yes. And so they can see me striving. I mean, maybe that's just done something to them that I'll be sorry for or that I'll be burden on them because they're going to have to try to find that thing in their life. But I feel like they have an opportunity to do that. And when they do, it's going to bring them real, real like fulfillment, like in a crazy way that you just can't get any other way. So and it might it'll look a thousand different ways in what mine does, but at least they'll have a representation. So for me, that's been important. No. Has my pursuit naturally changed? Yeah. The biggest change is that I really, what I find is that I'm not interested in doing what I've done. That doesn't interest me as much. And sometimes I think it's easy to get caught in, "Hey, I'm good at this." And I want to just keep doing this because it's what I do and I'm good at. And inevitably you're going to deteriorate. I didn't lose interest because of the potential of deterioration or because of deterioration. I lost interest because I already did that and I wanted to do something different. So then I'm over here doing something different and I'm like, "Wow, this is great and I'm able to get that early kind of fulfillment of something new." I'd never done that before. That's fascinating. And it doesn't always have to be the biggest, the this, the that, right? It doesn't always have to be that kind of finality. It could just be, "Hey, I'm right in ways that my eyes closed or whatever it is, whatever the next." It also sounds like that's made you really hard to compete with for the people who would want to compete with you because by the time they've been getting involved, you've moved on. We've got a different contest. They're like, "How come Laird's always doing something different right when the whole thing happens?" They're like, "Well, because I lose interest." It just happens to be that a lot of times the things start to catch up right when I lose interest. I don't lose interest because it catches up. I'm not losing interest because it's catching up. I'm losing interest because I've already gone through it. I'm like, "Okay, I got out of that. What I wanted." That was fun. Let me try this new thing, but that's the way I either way. I think part of a piece of that just has to do with the fact that I've been fortunate to not use anybody else as a reference. What do you mean? I'm not using other, because I'm not competing comparisons. Oh, they're doing that. I'm going to do this. They're doing that. I don't have a comparison thing. I'm going off going off of what I'm interested in, like what I'm drawn to naturally, what's pulling me. It seems like you've really preserved your almost like childlike imagination. It might just be like I'm retarded in some of this. You know, it's like who knows, it's like saying you're like adolescent, what do you call that? Reduced adolescent development or whatever it is. It's like handy. It's up. It doesn't work. Didn't go fast that. It just got to the certain level up, it can't go up, yeah, whatever ignorance is bliss, you know, what it has to be for joy though, just really, ignorance is bliss. I want to be do this. I heard you say this just in the vein of people using others as the excuse for why they don't do some. I did you say oftentimes people who talk about others as a journal in junkies is actually a way to let them off the hook from doing the thing they actually care about but scares them. It's an easy way to not have to look in the mirror and evaluate where you might have more potential or be scared to push the edge in your own life. Oh, man, oh, man, if you could elaborate on that for me, there's a, there's a famous woman entrepreneur who in the interview, they said somebody asked her, well, if you have a really good idea, what, what, you know, what should you do? And she said, well, first of all, don't tell anybody for a year and they're like, why? And she goes, well, because they'll discourage you. And then they're like, well, why would they discourage you? Because they have an idea that they're not acting on. And so they don't want you to act on your idea, because then it'll remind them how they're not acting on their idea. So, so in a way, I think it's, it has a lot to do with that, right? It has a lot to do with the, the potential, right? Like your responsibility, like you have ideas, you have things you want to do and you're not acting on them. Then somebody comes along and says, hey, I got this idea and then you're like, oh, yeah, you don't want to do that instead of like, wow, they're doing it. And I should, I should be doing it too, right? Just say, well, it's a way to, again, it's a way to get off the, it's the way to get off the hook of having to actually participate. It's like us, it's like during these last few years when we're instead of looking up stuff and understanding what's going on yourself to make a decision, you're looking at some expert to tell you, hey, this is what you should do. It's like, well, no, you should look around and decide what you want to do given the evidence that you have. But then you put it on yourself. You have to do it. You have to look. You have to, and the bottom line is I think the number one thing that inhibits everyone is the fear of failure. That's the number one thing, right, because no one wants to fail. So in the desire to not fail, you end up not participating. You end up not even doing it because you can't fail if you don't do it. But there's a great saying, there's great honor and a failed attempt, no honor and no attempt. So better to fail in an attempt than to not do it. And for me, I feel like I've been fortunate because of my upbringing and because of the way that, you know, of what I have as exposed to, first of all, I'm undescribable, like you just cannot discourage me. No one. Undescribable. Even Gabby. Undescribable. Like, it's like, it's, it's, I mean, I feel sorry for her, you know, she, because we had a conversation about it one time, she goes, you know, this is pretty tough to live with. And I go, you think it's tough to live with. How about being like this? So, you know, like tough to live with, I don't, that's child's playing. I mean, I'm having to do it, but that, but that, but that really kind of that pursuit, but the, the ability to, to, for failure, I think surfing has taught me so much failure, so much, so much failure, continued failure, ongoing failure, that again, a muscle doesn't discourage you, you're not, you're not, you know, you're not, and if you're discourages for a moment, it's a temporary discouragement, could be a broken leg, it's temporary, you know, it's going to heal, you're going to do it. But so I think that's a big piece of it, that people fear failure to the point that they won't even actually attempt, they want to attempt. And, and once you've done that a few times, pretty soon, you're just in failure avoidance, pretty soon, because you're in fear of wanting, so you're just in, because we're, everybody's in fear of wanting, it's pretty much, I mean, if you didn't see the way people act the last few years, fear avoidance, at any cost, doesn't even at the cost of their life, you know, so we're in fear avoidance. And so failure is a, is a, is a, you know, is a representation of fear, right, failure of fear, obscured of thing, this is a negative. And so I think that that's a, for me, I feel like that's a, you know, that's a big, a big, and it's back to consequence that we talked about, like, nothing fulfilling, doesn't have consequence. That's right. The consequence of failure. Yeah. So I think that's such a big dating crisis in young people in particular, because you've had to avoid rejection. Rejection. Oh, yeah. No one wants to somebody to girl to go on, no, I don't want to go with you. It's like, you know, I mean, that, that crushes you as a young male. You ask a girl out and she goes, no, but it doesn't crush you as much as avoiding it does. You won't even get a chance to be crushed. You won't even know and you, and you won't even be able to use that, like that crushing creates motivation. You might go to the gym and start working out. You might, you know, do whatever. You might invent something or create something or do, I mean, because it's what we do. Yeah. Males, we love to create, because we're trying to impress the girls. Yeah. They look at me. Yeah. I can, you know, I go with a building. Yeah. Good job. Yeah. That as of sort of value, a crucial aspect of a man's sort of existence in the world. And the reason I ask is because we've sort of found ourselves in this culture that there's a heavy culture of like, well, you're just worthy as you are for men, but a lot of men are depressed under that narrative and unhappy under that narrative. Yeah. You know, it just accepts your worth as you are. So like, well, that seems like a really a demasculization. Like that seems like a making men that women aren't interested in. You want to make men, you want to make men that women aren't interested in? Just think you're worthy as you are. Good job. Because you go into my house and you meet my daughter, she's going to have to be a lot more than just you are now. Yes, good person, humble, respectful, like all those things, but there's a great, there's a great quote and it says that you can't be peaceful unless you're capable of great violence. Because if you're not capable of great violence, then you're just harmless. And so we can just go with that, you know, like most men on actually peaceful, they're just harmless. That's not peace. Wow, that is so powerful. And so in a way, and I don't mean to be violent, but I use it more like if you just think being you is enough, good luck, good luck, good, good luck and first of all, in finding a mate, like let's just go biology, let's go like, you know who, you know who Vladimir Klitschko is. So he's a friend of mine and I talked to him because he's a doctor, PhDs, highly intelligent, probably one of the PhD doctor world champion heavyweight and we were talking and I was talking about boxing, I'm like, well, I need to fight everything goes well, because at the end of the day, you get to choose what woman you want to be with. And I mean, this is a, this is an elegant, intelligent man, but he's just going full, yeah, animal biology, let's just go to biology, because again, we're in technology. but we're biology. And so we've gone away from our biology pretending like it's not influencing us and influencing us every minute of every day. It's we're biology. We're I don't care what technology we're we're biology like so you know and I'm not I'm not saying oh yeah if you're tough you're but I'm saying that that there is something and and again it speaks to ultimately just being you is enough I'm sorry it's not enough it's not enough maybe if you're the only person on an island cool you know what I'm also saying is that no woman wants a man who's harmless she wants a man who is peaceful is peaceful yes sir any but you have to choose peace this is not something you fall into you choose it because you have the other option to yes you're capable of you're got to be capable because it mean you do it means it probably means you don't do wow because you actually have the choice because you can when you don't have the choice you don't have that option is it hard to trust a man then that hasn't been in a fight for example in his life well I find it confusing I'm just going to find it confusing if you haven't been in a fight I mean you're a little man you're going to school you're gonna be you know six years old you're gonna punch something you're gonna punch you you're gonna punch I'm you're gonna hit on the me if you're you mean you're 10 12 15 whatever I mean at certain point it's like you're gonna yeah some point you're gonna be a physical altercation well if you would you obviously don't have a son I mean you don't have to have it being a fight but maybe they wrote a bowl yeah well you didn't you didn't have a boy but if you would have a son and he was going to school you know this is narrative am I peasant I'm so grateful for them in this way because the narrative was if someone hits you don't hit them back my parents always said if someone hits you hit them fucking three times how to back on will deal with the principle or whatever yes how do you reflect on like what you would that sort of narrative and what you would have how you would have influenced your son oh I would need to Gabby would take care of that for me yeah yeah well she just wouldn't she would make sure that they knew like if somebody hits you you hit them so they don't ever hit you again I think that's a really empowering what's nice and polite it's back to consequence hmm we're here we are a consequence again gotta have a consequence you're not gonna hit somebody if you're gonna get hit back three times his art yeah probably avoid that and if he's not gonna if he won't hit you back you're likely gonna hit him again every single day you see him it'll be like sport it'll be like sport you'll be like oh hitting like a punching bag yeah there it is there's Joey yeah you know and I'd like to say turn your cheek and take the thing yeah at which point when you're actually capable of actually doing damage yeah then you're making a choice and if you're not that's not a choice if you're not capable of defending yourself you're not that that's not a choice if you're capable of defending yourself and you're like a black belt martial artist and the guy hits you and you just look at him and go okay well that's that's all you got okay and just walk away okay yeah that's a difference that's a different scenario yeah but most men are sort of maybe even lying to themselves in that they think they have choice but with but they don't have choice exactly that's a beautiful thing right what what great deception thinking you have choice and you don't that's sleut that's true slavery thinking you have choice but you don't yeah isn't it it's beautiful I think you got a choice you think you're choosing all this stuff you think you're choosing who you elect and there's this who they put in whoever they want it's beautiful but I want to finish with this this is written fucking amazing for me so thank you yes sir there's a painting okay in the of your daughter okay that your daughter yeah made when she was 12 years old with some of my quotes your quotes and I want to just understand the story behind and the meaning behind some of these because they're fascinating to me blame is safer than praise yeah what does that mean when they're praising you they might be pounding you on the the cross after and that's they see you they might be pounding you on the cross after what does that mean blame what is it they want Jesus you know they're praising him it's just some of God so you do just crucify him after that I'm just saying like when people are praising you be cautious blame is like if they're blaming you it's like it's your fault it's a thorough the rose a great author and he that's one of his blame is safer than praise I mean praise is blame is safer than praise yeah because if you're getting blamed it's like but you know how it is lift them up drop them down when you're already down you're down it's like no problem yeah fuck it you use use this one already but I want to understand if there's any more that you have here there was great honor in a failed attempt but no honor in no attempt exactly so better to to fail better to attempt and fail than to not attempt because it's there's no honor in it there's no honor in not trying yet there's always honor in trying hey I tried to climb that mountain how hard you try as hard as I could amazing well I didn't try to climb that mountain okay well yeah there's no honor in that one and yeah and it gets back to using that metaphor as a pursuit of goals a pursuit of dreams as a pursuit of ideas yeah pursuit of something like hey you're gonna paint a painting oh I was gonna paint it but didn't want to paint it oh you painted it but it was terrible but you put the time in the effort you made an attempt you made an attempt maybe this is you'll have the same answer to this one you won't get the right if you don't commit to taking off exactly well we have a saying and surfing too you you don't kind of take off it's about commitment it's about the ability to commit you either commit or don't you don't kind of commit like you can't kind of catch a wave you either catch one or you don't and it's super defined which I which I always appreciated about the ocean yeah it just forces that kind of because there's very few things in life that are so definitive it's very few things are just not definitive it's always gray area and all this stuff and the ocean does it either you go or you don't go like it's like there's no you kind of went yeah you partially went you either just didn't or you did you know well I don't know much about surfing but it also seems to me that when I do get up on a wave but I haven't fully committed energetically it always finds me out oh of course of course for the ocean is perceptive and knows like in what you give that give it it takes back like if I have I'll give you a situation where like somebody will frustrate me and line up and I'll get upset and everything and get mad inevitably the next wave I'll just get the thing on the top of my head pitched over the falls wipe out breakboard washed in just you know wounded just laying there going on so it really it really is really gives you back what you if you come with just cleanness and pureness it just gives you the the good and it's very very like in that way very very honest like it's so pure that like it's like oh yeah you you pay when you act you know it there sounds like the greatest mirror so great so beautiful yeah there's no lie and so beautiful and even when you even when you know the lesson sometimes you still get even though you know you're like you know I know but I stomp like a little reminder there's one more I want to ask you even a blind squirrel finds in that yeah well because you see it you know you could dedicate your life to surfing and you could be out on a giant day and and you just can't get a good one and then you see somebody who's little reckless and careless and maybe hasn't quite put the the discipline and the focus and the you know the whole you know maybe that's your judgment of it or whatever but you just you don't you know they're a squirrel and you like you see them come out and I'll just get the wave of the day and you're just like what's going on what is happening you know and it's just it's just that there's a certain we have a new saying which is even a nut can find a client's squirrel but that speaks to that you know those there's all these you know analogies or parables and stuff that there's a reason why they're there right they're just they they have truth in them yeah they have true that's why they're that's why they are what they are that's why they ring like they ring you know that's why I like them like I mean you know my friend will say oh lardisms but it's it's just things I've heard that made sense to me they just they they go in and stay in yeah because they come up in a situation I'll be like oh that's fully appropriate for that that's fully appropriate for that makes sense and there's a lot and it's endless I mean the Bible is full of parables and awaited because I like what it happens is is you've distilling sometimes a very complex thing down into something so simple so simple one of my favorite things that I've been I then I quote often is that what was a couple of them but one of them is luck and chance is law not understood what does I mean luck and chance are law not understood so there's somebody goes oh that was lucky the guy did the actually no there was some law there was a law in the universe whatever it was that made that situation happen, but because we don't understand the law. We said, oh, that's lucky. That's just by chance. There's nothing by chance. There's nothing that's lucky. These are laws that are not understood. You're just not understanding the law. They say if you roll dice long enough, you'll have an even amount of numbers of all of them. Even amount of numbers of all of them. You just keep rolling and then eventually you'll get to the even amount of numbers of all of them. Again, law, luck, and chance are not understood. Those are universal truths. We have these universal truths that time doesn't change. Nothing changes them. There's a great book that I like. There's seven laws of the universe. All is mental. There's a law of correspondence and vibration and rhythm and polarity and gender. And those are universal laws. Those are laws. Those are truths that aren't going to change. Rhythm is not changing. Polarity is not changing. Vibration is not changing. Correspondence is not changing. All is mental is the first. The universe is mental. I think that's an unbelievable way for us to close this out. To sit in front of someone who has touched greatness in so many ways, but to see you as so normal and so human, I think is the greatest testament that I can give to you. Well, I appreciate that. My friend had a saying since past, we're all in the same boat. We're all in the same boat. Nobody is above anybody or below anybody. I think that's something for all of us to remember. I've been fortunate to experience some amazing things, but I have all the things that everybody has. I have all that I have to sleep. I have to eat. I use the bathroom. I have this. I get sad. I get mad. I get this. I just, we all have it. Again, no one's exempt. There's nobody exempt from the process. We're all subjected to gravity. I haven't seen anybody yet. I can fly up an airplane, throw them out without a shoot and have them land on this cement. There might be something coming. I think it's just a technology we don't understand, but my point is that we're all, you know, no one is, you know, in Hawaii, a Hawaiian guy, a very tough guy, when Hawaii means licking means you get beat up, right? And he says, no one is above licking. So we'll leave it at that. We'll leave it at that. Yeah. Thank you. This has been a real gift for me. As we just close this out, I know you got Hamilton House and things that that are happening right now. So what do you feel called to share for those who've listened to this and want to become more involved and immersed in what you have? Well, Hamilton House is our latest kind of endeavor. It's a beautiful thing. We have some amazing people. It's kind of a little bit of like a stereotype of our house. There's all the things going on and the evolution of things going on. And then of course, there's, you know, superfoods always there. And that stuff is amazing products. We continue to build layered superfood to make, you know, hydration bars, all the coffee stuff, but all high ingredients and super, you know, function based. So and then so there's no end to that. You know, there's no end to the, yeah, there's no end to the, you know, you guys had a mocha one. Yeah, the bars are the bars are very good. So and this has been around for 10 years. It came from a recipe that I used to make myself and my friends. And then one friend said you got to try to build a product with it and off off went superfoods. So yeah. And then and then we always have other stuff. Gabby has her podcast again, a ratio. Beautiful information on that. Yeah. And then, you know, we're always looking for new products and stuff to share with people. It's I feel a little bit like an obligation, you know, that to kind of things that I benefit from, I like to share with other people. Yeah. And I've been fortunate to do that. That's very Hawaiian. You know, aloha is generosity like Hawaiian. That's probably the one of the number one attributes in the Hawaiian culture is their generosity. They're, they're willing to give is kind of beyond our capability to understand, especially in modern society. They're very generous. And I grew up that way. And so I always felt that way. I always have shared my training stuff, my sports stuff. Part of it maybe because I wasn't trying to beat the next guy. I didn't have to like retain secrets. I was just kind of like, Hey, you can use my board. And if you can do better things than I can do on it. Awesome. You know, if here's my, here's the thing I'm doing. This is what I love. And so and for me, I that's what works for me. That's what I do. That's just what I do. And and there's a famous saying. Don't fix it if it's not broken. But thank you so much. It's been an amazing gift for me. My pleasure. Thank you. Aloha. Aloha. Thank you.