#011 - Ryan Moresby-White - Nice guys do finish last, no one trusts a man who can't say no and women as a man's greatest initiation.

There's a crisis happening in plain sight. Men today are the most medicated, most isolated, most directionless they've ever been. Suicide is the second leading cause of death in men under 45. Boys are falling behind in education at every level. The intimate lives of young men are immeasurable decline. And yet everywhere you look, the response to this crisis of men seems to be, to tell men to be less, less aggressive, less dominant, less certain, quieter, softer, more in touch, more careful. And yet somewhere in that instruction, while intentioned as it is, a generation of men have lost the thread entirely. They went looking for themselves in the manosphere and they found people like Andrew Tate. They went looking for themselves in the wellness world and found breath work and a vocabulary for their feelings that somehow has managed to replace the feelings themselves. They went looking for models of manhood and have found either perform or perform differently but perform regardless. My guest today has dedicated his life to a different proposition that the crisis of men is not about masculinity. It's about the boy inside the man who never was afforded the opportunity to grow up. That most of what we diagnose as toxic masculinity is actually an unhealed childhood, operating in an adult body, at adult scale, with adult consequences. His thesis is this. Heal the boy so the man can appear. Born in South Africa, raised in Australia, he walked away from a successful career in construction after a painful breakup cracked him open. And what he found on the other side of that crack became his life's work. And today, he has worked directly with thousands of men and managed to reach hundreds of millions through his content. And he is one of the most important voices in the conversation about men that almost nobody is having honestly. And today, we are gonna attempt to have it, honestly, so without further ado, Brian Mosby White, it is an unbelievable honor to have you on the show. Thank you for being here. - Hmm, thank you, bro. That was a beautiful introduction. I just shared the thesis as far as I understand it, but I really wanna know for me, if you could sort of make a case for why this matters in the modern structure of our society. Why does this matter? What you summed up there is the modern men or the modern adolescent boy today, searching for some sort of figure or role model or representation of what it means to be a man. And young boys are always looking to older, masculine figures to model to them, like what does it mean to be a man? Like for the longest time, as a little boy, your father is your hero. When you're a child, like you look at your father and he's God to you, he is everything. And what I see today is a society full of little boys who haven't had the essential separation from their childhood and they're still seeking that God-like figure of their father that they never truly got to feel and experience. Maybe their father was present and provided everything for them, but wasn't the safe regulated nervous system that a little boy needed. Or the man that was able to actually lead the way and lead the path of what it means to be a man through essential rights of passage and initiation from boy to man. So what happens is this lack of eldership in and community and ritual and ceremony and boys going through this separation from their childhood, they're left tethered to their childhood. And it's like they haven't really cultivated their own sense of self. And what happens is when that. We'll speak more about trauma, but this is a form of trauma. Is the lack of what you didn't have. And I don't know any man today. I've never met a man today who actually experienced a ritualistic ceremonial right of passage from boy to man where he within a communal setting got to grieve and actually let go of his childhood and be separated from his mother. I haven't met a man that actually walked that and experienced that today in modern society. So without that separation, a man doesn't actually know who he is. He hasn't received the essential developmental strength that he was supposed to receive as a little boy, which was cultivating a relationship with the initiatory path and life and death. And what this looks like is him actually receiving that experience of where he's stripped away from his mother and he's removed from his comforts. He's removed from the familiar world of his comforts of the nurturing and the care of the feminine of his mother. And he goes and spends time with the man and learns what it means to be a man from initiated man, healthy man. And then within that he discovers a from 12 to about 18 or 20 in that period of time, when he's spending time with initiated men, he's actually cultivating a sense of his place in the world within the community. And that gives him a real deep sense of meaning and purpose in his life, that he has a place within the community. So you can see today how this is now starting to contaminate society and men's lives. They hadn't had the separation from the mother. They're still a meshed or tired to their mother, or they haven't been able to really see their mother for who she really is and receive the strengths from the mother. And then they're left looking for a mother in adult relationship and becoming the man that is solely dependent on a woman for that sense of nourishment and nurturing. And then we go into the lack of meaning and purpose, right? A boy then gets tired to the first thing that's like most attractive, which is what we see today in the matter's fear and stuff like that. And this is what then becomes attractive to a young boy. So in essence, the biggest problem with men today is the system from which they came from. And that family unit and family system becomes the blueprint for which he sees the world from. And that blueprint controls and runs his entire life. And until he grieves and separates and leaves that blueprint behind and leaves his family and grieves his childhood and his mother and his father, he'll continue to be a little boy in the world, looking out the world through the lenses of the little boy. And this is where for thousands of years, rights or passage were a thing because they understood this. They knew that if a boy or a man was to have a healthy relationship with a woman and a successful relationship and family, he had to separate from his mother. They understood that. So when he started showing interest in girls around the age of 12, they understood that he needs to go through this initiation and this writer passage. It's that around that period of time that this boy is now ready to separate from his childhood. So he can now choose his woman. So there's many things that from the system that we come from, then lead to everything that you shared today. And this is the greatest issue with society. - Oh, yeah. - I love fans as well as work. He calls it suspended adolescence. He had to get in stock and suspended adolescence. I want to break down. You just said the difference between trauma and initiation because you're talking about he must separate from his mother in order to be able to have a powerful relationship. The way I've heard the difference between trauma and initiation is that trauma is an uncontained encounter with death, whereas initiation is a contained encounter with death. And so I want to understand how you distinguish trauma and initiation. And then secondly, my second part to that question is the challenge for most mothers, the fact that they're attempting to keep their boys so protected that they never have the opportunity to really grow up. - The difference between trauma and initiation, here's the thing when it comes to a man being initiated from boys and men, it's gonna happen regardless. And what happens is, because of this lack of relationship that men haven't had with initiation and rights of passage, they, there's an unconscious part of their psyche that's seeking to die. There's an unconscious part of their psyche that's seeking to actually let go of their childhood. So what happens is he's bringing these unresolved childhood wounds into relationship. And from what I see today and, you know, thousands of millions. that I've worked with and supported and seen is that, unfortunately, this little boy enters into relationship, seeking the initiation that he never received. So he ends up sabotaging the relationship and experiencing the death that he never got to experience. So that's how the lack of rights of passage or cultivating relationship with grief then turns into trauma. But the difference that I see what you said with contained initiation is a boy knowing and feeling that he's not alone in facing death. That's why these rituals were done in a communal setting because it's like, I'm not on my own. I can experience the greatest pain and suffering and I know that my father stands behind me. I know that my brother stand behind me. Shame feels like the common underpinning narrative that is infused in male to male relationships. Why do you think that is? Well, there's two kinds of shame. There's toxic shame and then there's healthy shame. But the men who are toxically shamed from childhood is from my experience, a man who never experienced a father who had a safe nervous system that can mirror to this child that all of him is welcome and lovable. Because a little boy is looking up to his father as if he's God. And to have your greatest superhero not mirror back to you through his nervous system through his regulated nervous system that like you're lovable and no matter if you fail, if you fuck up, if you make a mistake, I'm here. That infuses and conditions this little boy's nervous system that I can make mistakes, I can fuck up, I can fail and I'm okay. I'm still loved. We're toxic shame. That's the healthy level of shame. Toxic shame is because he didn't have that. A child's brain doesn't understand this. It hasn't developed to the point where I can understand, okay, dads, you know, dysregulated or he's not emotionally, you know, he's not home today, right? So all this little boy thinks and feels because children are very narcissistic in their core that it must mean that there's something wrong with me. My father, this God-like figure, to not have his nervous system mirror back to me, right, that I'm okay, that I'm lovable, that I can fail and fuck up and make a mistake and then he's there. It's not just his words. Do you think that's what makes it so challenging for then a man in an adult relationship to allow himself to be really seen because to be seen is almost collapsed with, there's something wrong with me. This toxic shame can come from like your mother or father or anywhere within your childhood, but it mostly comes from the father because it's like he is God to this little boy. And that 100% be mirrored back in adult relationship. That toxic shame is when a man just constantly feels like no matter what he does or how hard he tries or how much he gives and provides, it's just never enough. Or his woman's emotional experience or her expression, he sees it as like if she's not okay, it's because I haven't done a good enough job. So he's like constantly making it about himself. So the toxic shame is it's when it becomes personalized, it becomes our identity. So our nervous system was conditioned long enough through childhood that who you are is not okay. And there's something inherently wrong with you. So we then bring this unresolved pain, these old wounds into relationship where your nervous system it doesn't know time. So when a woman brings to her man her emotions and he sees it as the summing wrong with me and then he makes it about himself and completely takes it away from her emotional experience. In that moment, his nervous system doesn't know the difference between the little seven year old boy and the man today. It just remembers the original blueprint from childhood that he's still operating from because he hasn't actually grieved, separated and let go of his childhood. So how in the modern day can an adult man break out of that pattern? Yeah, he has to find that shame-based child within him. This is where relationships are the greatest greatest mirrors, the greatest gifts, the greatest invitations and opportunities into these original wounds where the original pain, the original grief is. And here's a thing a man can do all of the work he wants in the world, personal development work, he can go to all the events do all the all the men's work stuff he can read all the books have all of the awareness in the world until he touches that original grief and allows that grief to bring him to his knees and be in the experience of what he didn't have when he was a little boy. No matter how much he does, all of that will go out the window as soon as his partner brings the fullness of her to him. Yeah, because that's what happened to me. Tell me how it happened to you. I spent years doing the inner work and I was even teaching the inner work. I was supporting men. I was speaking and doing podcasting and all the things and I was very intellectually aware of my wounding and my trauma and my mother and my father and my family system and I was very aware that when I was seeing my partner as my mother or father, you know, like when we're triggered it's like we're not seeing our partner for who they are, we're seeing them for, you know, this unresolved emotional memory. And then in that moment it's like that's no longer your partner that's now your mother or your father in that moment. Yeah. So I was aware of all of that. Yet she would still bring things to me and all of that awareness would go out the window. As soon as my body was triggered, it was just like a consuming wave of emotion that would just take over me and this emotional state would just be my entire body and no matter how much inner work I did, it would just take over me. And I'd become triggered, reactive, insecure, jealous, shut down and there was no breath work in the world that could get me out of that. There was no meditation in the world that could get me out of that. It could, I could bypass it for a moment. But it was a matter of time before she'd bring something else to me again and I'd spiral or I react or I shut down or I minimize her. So I'd done years of the inner work and then I was in this relationship many years ago with this woman that I was like this was it. This was the mountain I was committed to dying on. This was the woman. I was going to marry her. I was going to have children like that was it. And I got home one day. We're living in Bali together and all of her bags were packed. And within 30 minutes, she was out the door. And I'd given everything to this, everything I thought I had. I was working with coaches and relation and we're working with relationship therapists and trying to understand healthy communication. But there was an initiatory journey that I had to embark on which I hadn't really touched. When she left and I was left in that empty villa by myself in a foreign country, my entire nervous system shut down. I went into complete shutdown. My body was going into tremors. I could trauma response. So I was literally like just shaking. I was vomiting. I was literally on the bathroom floor just like in this mess. And what was happening in that moment, I was like in the fetal position like literally like vomiting and crying and just in as puddle of his mess. What happened was I was I was kind of flickering in and out of consciousness between this moment of laying here on this floor and laying on the floor when I was seven years old and my parents divorced and my mom started seeing another man. And they had no sense to my nervous system as a little boy. And I was so fucking scared and so alone. And I had no one to hold me in that. I had no support for my nervous system to be out of collapse into that and actually just grief that I've just lost my family. And I was flickering in and out of I couldn't tell the difference between that seven year old and this 20 year old. And I was just in and out in and out. And then that was the embodied experience and the grief of I hadn't touched this original pain. I hadn't allowed this grief to bring me to my knees yet in the way that I needed to when I was a little boy. Yeah, so after that it was a grieving, I intentionally grieved, mourned my childhood intentionally for nine months. I went and lived in a forest home in the Sunshine Coast in Australia with one of my closest brothers, one of my best friends today, and he was going through some stuff too, and this is where him and I had lent on brotherhood, and there were days where I woke up, and you know, I was going through this deep grief of this relationship, and here's the thing, it had nothing to do with the relationship. And this relationship just awakened me to this lifetime of grief that I held around my heart, which kept my heart living in such a fucking state of fear in relationships, kept me anxious, shut down, fearful, avoiding all of the things. We can learn all the attachment styles, we can learn all of these things, but beneath all of that is a little boy or a little girl still holding on to this unresolved grief, original pain from childhood. And in that period of time, having my brother's nervous system to collapse into in moments when I needed him, just that there was a that season, that nine-month season of really being with that is what really cultivated a lot of what people received from me today, and everyone has access to it as well. If you could give that season a name, and maybe articulate it in a manner that could now be gifted to the world in a way that is maybe to describe this the season that every man needs to go through. What would you call that season? A season of separation, when we look at the hero's journey, so writes a passage, he's actually the hero's journey embedded into an experience, that's what it is. So in the hero's journey, there's a separation from the familiar world, the comfortable, the known, right, and we relate it back to a boy separated from his mother, the nurturing, the comfort, the what he knows. And the thing is with an initiation, it's you don't truly want an initiation. No one does. It's something that you can't ask for, and you don't want to ask for, because it's going to require a, it's going to completely take you out of your known world, out of your comforts, out of your routine, in times and moments where it just makes no fucking sense that this is happening. I had so many things going on, right, it made no sense that this was happening in this period of time. Everything was beautiful, right, at least at in moments it was, yeah. And that's to bring it back to your question, like, what's that season? Is really honoring the separation from the, from the comfort from that, that's what's familiar, and allowing yourself to accept the calling. So when I said you don't really want an initiation, what makes it a true initiation is you refuse the call many times. You're fuck that. No, I'm not going there. Fuck that. I'm not going there. No, I like it. It's like you, you walk up to the edge of the cliff and you walk back, you walk up to the edge, you walk back. Yeah. That's the threshold. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the times it's, we can choose to jump into the threshold or we'll be pushed over the edge by something at some point. Yeah. So that choosing is allowing yourself to enter into the unknown world. And you don't know what's down there. That's the thing. Yeah. Right. Entering that that nine month seasonal experience of grieving and mourning my childhood, I was just letting go of of everything I had known. Right. So basically I was just, no, there was, I was getting rid of my routine. I was just allowing myself to allow this grief to bring me to my knees. Yeah. And the gift was the relationship was the gateway. It was the opening. It was the door into this morning. And yeah, allowing myself to be in that. And like you can, I like to say when it comes to initiation, you're either in one right now, whether you know it or not, you're either coming out of one or you're headed towards one. Yeah. It's one of the three. Yeah. We live our life in cycles and seasons. And when we really honor the initiatory path, we allow ourselves to actually like go into that darkness and be in and narrown it and allow it to take us where it wants to take us. What are the most common ways that you see a man avoiding initiation? Yeah. I mean, oh shit. We look at I see a lot of men in biohacking and high-roxing their way around their grief. Yeah. And the avoidance of initiation looks like the the first three stages of grief, which is denial bargaining and anger and frustration. All right. So there's this five stages to grief. The first one is you deny it. So it's like the refusal of the cause. I know. Fuck that. I'm not going on there. Yeah. Yeah. Then there's the bargaining. Yeah. Or it's like, if I just do this better, if I just train harder, if I just work harder, if I just learn healthy communication better, if I just was to show up this way, then she would love me better or things would be different. Right. It's this constant bargaining. Yeah. And that when it doesn't work, that seems like the dark corner that most men get stuck in for some for a decade, some for their life. Yeah. The third stage is frustration, anger. And it's out frustration. And what a lot of men use that frustration and anger is they're doing energy. Yeah. So when I say like they're these first three stages, the denial bargaining anger is this loop that most people are just fucking looping in. And this is where I see a lot of men in like the biohacking, high rocks world, they're actually looping in this denial of their grief. Right. What's biohacking? People become obsessed with that shit. Yeah. And they're actually avoiding death. They're trying to expand their life so much because they're trying to avoid death, but they're actually avoiding their own grief. If initiation was to be defined as a contained encounter with death, then the biohacking world, or at least a lot of it, is an attempt to avoid death, which is to avoid actually the initiation that you need to be fully alive, which is the greatest thing that you could do for longevity. What? That is so fucking powerful. They understood right to passage and initiation. The greatest thing you could do in the world of biohacking is to actually face the grief you're avoiding, experience the initiation, and let yourself die to the part of you that cannot take you where you intended to go. Yeah. You can't biohack you way around your grief, or learn how to communicate better around your grief. I have so many people in my, I mean, I've been through many seasons in which I've been in the attempt to do that. And I have friends that are coming to mind now that I know that we'll resonate with that heavy. Yeah. There's no tool, there's no red light sauna, there's no infrared, there's no, there's not even any sense of sort of information that can allow you to escape the, the path or the part of the hero's journey that is to be with all the things that you never received. Yeah. Look at running culture today. Like run clubs have exploded. People are craving community and avoiding grief. They're literally running from their grief. They would rather run a fucking marathon than sit with their original pain from childhood. When it comes to grief, the greatest fear and the greatest avoidance of grief is if I allow myself to feel it, I will completely unravel and lose myself. Yeah. I don't have time for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In this overly productive world today, I don't have time for that. Yeah. Although I'm going to lose my ambition, I think that was a big one for me for a lot of time too, is like in the feeling of what I know needs to be felt, I'm afraid that I'm going to emerge from this season with no ambition, motivation, desire, inspiration. Like I just won't want to do anything. Yeah. And a part of me feels like, oh, I am. More like the wound is not serving me, but it's serving me to get shit done yeah So then you climb to the top of the ladder and you realize this isn't the Climb the wrong man. Yeah when I was 22 years old. I built a successful construction career and I was doing amazing work and I I Wanted to kill myself often and What I was wanting to actually kill was the part of me the younger part of me. That was actually seeking to die a lot of people right I Don't take you know suicidal thoughts lightly, but when it comes to initiation rights of passage and this work and men Healing the boy. It's typically a younger part of them. It's actually seeking the death Yeah, and for a long time that was me. I was in construction. I fucking hated my life yet. I was making money. Things were going well. I was accumulating assets and I Climb to the top of that ladder and realized that my father wasn't at the top. He's his love and approval wasn't at the top And I was so driven and ambitious from that place of seeking to Like I said his little boys our father is God to us and I will sacrifice my entire life to prove to you that I'm worthy of Being here. Yeah To to just circle back for a moment to the grief. Yeah, please. There's the looping. Yeah, so people stuck in that loop of grief avoiding it and they get to Denial bargaining and then frustration and anger and typically what happens here is is the looping and the Men either express that anger In frustration and ways or they they they put it towards their mission or their purpose or you know, they're training or whatever like that What actually happens is because they haven't crossed a threshold from those first three stages to the fourth stage It becomes this undercurrent of anger, sadness, depression, loneliness, anxiety, worry, doubt. It's like it's undercurrent beneath it all Because the threshold what happens is when we cross the threshold I call it it's like You're going over the waterfall. Yeah, yeah, right the threshold is you're going over the waterfall and you're descending down into the Depths of your of your your your grief and this is where I'm afraid if I go over that waterfall. I'll completely lose myself and die Because what happens is with grief is that when we experience grief We're not just experiencing it in this moment But it's actually signaling and activating a part of our brain called spread activation theory Which ignites a neural network in our brain which activates every single moment of Grieved experience of your entire fucking life in one moment So you're not only experiencing the grief in this moment, but your entire life of Unexpressed unfelt grief I just want to understand this deeply. So when we experience grief There is an actual part of our brain that is triggered that gets activated and that signal is Activating every moment of unresolved grief in our life or collapsed into one more. Yes. That's why it feels so overwhelming And not just grief, but other emotions too rejection shame abandonment So when for example I'll give you a prime example in my previous relationship That one that I was telling you about where would be it'd be a beautiful Sunday morning Driving down the beach got a coffee music playing and I look over and she's scrolling on her phone Right in that moment She's no longer my partner. She's now my father and it triggers Every single moment that I felt my father wasn't paying attention to me or that I wasn't Important enough for him. So this is where you then regress into a childlike state and it's got nothing to do with this moment And this is where it's like the reaction and the response is it's got nothing to do with this moment So rejection shame fear all of these it's it's It's it's all triggered in the moment, and this is why I can feel so consuming and overwhelming No, I mean I could get emotional at the number of men in the world who are still looking for their dad to just play with them Still hoping their dad would just I mean I resonate with that in my own world and like Just Make an effort, you know Is that a common thing you see and then the men that you work with like that the Of course the some of the greatest dysfunction, you know most men behind bars If you look at the history of absent fathers, you know, but physically, but then there's also the conversation about the the men who grew up with Fathers that were physically there, but emotionally absent that those equate to similar to similar sort of experience like is the physical absence The importance or is it the emotional absence that is the important? Great question First of all, there's a really incredible thing that you go to go and watch called a pretty sure it's called the step-in circle or the step-in Experiment step inside the circle step inside the circle the prison circle. Yeah Every single man that steps inside that circle was either emotionally or physically abused by someone in his childhood as a little boy Can we find that video? This depends. I just want to get your feedback and thoughts on that video. I think it's so powerful. She's watched the first It's time now everyone We're gonna do we compassion trauma circle. Is everyone ready to face their hearts? with compassion Is that a yes? While you were growing up during your first 18 years of life It's a parent or other adult in the household Austin or very Austin would swear at you and salt you put you down or humiliate you Step inside the circle As a parent or other adult in the household Austin or very Austin hushed grad slapped or threw something at you Step inside the circle If a parent or other adult in the household often or very often ever hit you so hard that you had marks when we're injured Step inside the circle If you often felt that no one in your family loved you or thought you were important or special Step inside the circle If your family lived in extreme poverty Step inside the circle Step inside the circle step inside the circle step inside the circle There is no shame Fuck man It uh when I watch that all I see is Little boys standing around is still No matter what age you are physically Until you reclaim that little boy within you and you grieve the hurt and the pain that you experience as a child and Your nervous system doesn't know the difference and you're forever that hurt little boy in the world and Yeah What do you think we're getting along as a society as it pretends to treating Man Like the most dysfunctional man in our society Don't need to be put behind bars. They need help. Yeah, they need to be seen. Yeah, they're not a problem to fix There's there's nothing wrong with them. There's they're not some project to fix men just want to be understood There's a little boy in every man that just wants to be understood and There's a little boy that's seeking to be held in a way that He needed as as a child and People don't understand that men don't even understand that If you're needy insecure Anxious worry and then we just have to keep fucking working and working and training harder and pushing and striving achieving and doing more and doing more and doing more as if we're a fucking problem to solve and fix and Continuing to build the life upon the foundation of that little child That little boy that is still just seeking The presence of his father And every time I sit with a man, at our retreats, at our events, you know, through the work that we do, what I watch happen is when a man experiences meeting the little boy within him for the first time, there's no words exchanged with him and that little boy. He just goes and sits next to him and the grief that comes through and moves this man in that experience is the missing experience that that little boy didn't have. And until we grieve that missing experience, because we'll never get it, we'll never, ever, ever get that missing experience. We can't, because we can't go back in time. We have to grieve the losses of what we didn't have. And until we do, those losses will control and dictate our entire fucking life. We'll just think or two we are. Those poor men, you know, see that in the prison. I don't see convicts. I see hurt little boys that are acting out their wounding to the world, because there was no one to hold or support him for his little nervous system to be out of it, claps it into. So to feel safe, to feel like he's part of something, to have purpose and meaning in the world, to be part of a communal brotherhood and to have his place in the world is what happens. There's something so powerful even about the number of men that are in pursuit of healing themselves. And like you just said, about when a man in your retreats and events first meets that boy, there's no words exchanged. It's like the recognition that that boy never wanted to be healed. He just wanted to be helped. And he doesn't need you to fix him. And all this work you're trying to do fixing him is actually part of the challenge and part of maybe the wounding is that you think you will finally be fixed enough to be enough. And he just wants to know he's enough as he is. And it perpetuates the trauma. It perpetuates the disconnect. Because you're doing the inner work, you're doing the biohacking, all of the stuff upon the foundation of that little boy and you're moving further and further and further away from that part of you that just wants your presence. And men will spend their entire life running from themselves doing this. Until something uncontrollable that they can't control brings them to their knees. And they have no other option but to ask a greater question of what the fuck do I do now. And it's typically when the woman that they love more than anything leaves them. It's typically when they lose their family, they go through a divorce, they cheat on their partner, they hurt the people that I love more than anything. And it makes no fucking sense to them why they would do that. Yeah. Yeah. And we let's go into women and intimate relationships for a moment. There's something I heard you say that I just thought was so powerful that I want to hear your perspective on the feminine. You said I heard you say the feminine is the most profound initiation for a man to step into his potential. She is the reflection of God. What does that mean? When I say she's the reflection of God, I. A woman will be the greatest mirror to where a man is living out of alignment between his head, his heart and his balls, where he's living out of alignment with his deepest integrity. And a deep woman that is, a woman of substance, a woman who's met these depths of herself and is, will say no and speak her truth and honor her boundaries. And she's clear on what she wants and what she will stand for. And she has the capacity to actually receive a man's leadership. Or like this kind of woman, she will be the greatest mirror for a man and vice versa. Yeah. But when I say the reflection of God is that she will trigger him in ways that only she can trigger him. And those reflections are God-like. There's a higher consciousness moving through the dynamic where she is just the perfect mirror and reflection of his original blueprint of relationship. When we enter into relationship, we are carrying this original blueprint and roadmap that has unresolved emotions attached to it. And we typically choose partners based on that blueprint as well. I mean, even that reflection or that reframe can be a dramatic shift in how a man perceives his relationship along. If you start to see your woman as the reflection of God, then she can't simultaneously be in the way. She can't simultaneously be nagging. She can't simultaneously be all the things that we and our wounding tend to use as to why we have to just get away from me. You know, it seems like just viewing what is surfacing as her being the reflection of God, attempting to bring to you everything that needs to be reconciled. Yeah. Sounds like a really powerful reframe on what relationships are. Yeah. And when I say she's the reflection of God, but I also mean by that is she will - this doesn't mean a man just becomes a fucking nice guy. Right? The nice guy will go, she is God, she is everything and pedestal her, put it place her up here. Sometimes the reflection of God through her is this man actually standing for himself and no longer not speaking his truth and honoring what he needs and really being clear and discerning on what's healthy and what's in alignment with him. And that reflection is, you know, it flows that way too. Maybe it's saying no to a woman that's emotionally unavailable and can't actually meet you in relationship. Like that's also God in front of you going, "Hey, are you willing to say yes to what it is that you actually want?" Or you're going to just keep being the fucking nice guy and allowing yourself to give your entire self a way to someone who can't actually meet you in the way that you deserve. Yeah. In some ways it's almost like the nice guy, it does not even have the space to choose a woman or not choose because he's still looking for love. He's insubbable. He's insubbable. Yeah. So he's not even really in the space to be able to dissafe for whether this woman is for me or not for me because he's still looking for what was absent. Yep. That's the thing with the nice guy. The nice guy is not who you are. It's a survival state. It's the little boy so attached to the love and the attention and the validation that the feminine gives him. This woman gives him. He needs that as if it's his oxygen supply. So in his thing, the nice guy is thrown around very easily. But what is it actually? Let's speak that down. We talk about this difference between a nice guy and a strong man. If we were to really just distinguish what are the differences between those two archetypes. Yeah. The essence of the nice guy is a little boy who never had the space as a child to cultivate his sense of self, to understand boundaries, to be able to speak his truth, to know that his space is respected, that his anger is valued, and there's a place for his anger. Because our anger is our protector emotion and it's what actually we go through what's called our second birth, our psychological birth. This is where a toddler tantrums, because what they're doing is they're it's called oppositional bonding, they're resisting their parents through their anger, to create, this is my space, sense of individuation, sense of individuation, that's it. So the lack of individuation is what causes the nice guy. Because this man's nervous system is seeking and needs a woman's nervous system to experience a sense of self. Because he never individuated and created his own sense of self. So he needs this woman's nervous system to mirror back to him. He's sense of self. So he doesn't even know what he needs. Yeah. He doesn't even know what he's wants. or desires are what he needs to be deeply connected to himself. Because survival, experiencing some sort of sense of self is more important here. It's like that quote from Gabo Marti where he says, "When authenticity threatens attachment, the child will choose attachment." And oftentimes there are men, adults living in this sense of suspended adolescence, still prioritizing attachment when what they're really looking for is authenticity. And the scary part about all of that is this lack of individuation leaves a man as the nice guy who never actually knows who he is. Because he never had the space to actually cultivate his sense of self, his knowingness. So he becomes a nice guy who loses himself from relationship, he can't speak his truth because it doesn't even fucking know what his truth is. Someone says, "Be yourself." Speak your truth. What is that? You don't know what that means. So there's so much more beyond just the nice guy. There's nervous system stuck in a state of survival as this little boy, as you just said, Gabo Marti shares that it's attachment versus authenticity, which is we would rather be and become whoever the fuck we need to be to get our needs met, then be ourselves because that's survival. If we don't get that as children, we die. Well, at the same time, our soul is longing for this sense of authenticity and that's where the conflict comes in, right? It's like the need for attachment is in conflict with the desire for authenticity and sounds like that is at the core of most people's lifelong challenge. Yep. Yeah. This is the essence of anxious and avoidance attachment. Yeah. Yeah. So, how do you then clarify the man listening to this right now who can feel that sense of like fuck? I am a people, please. I have been the quote unquote, maybe symbolic nice guy. I do embody those archetypes. I don't know what I want. I haven't had the chance to fully clarify who I am. I do find myself when I get close in an in deep intimate relationships. I do lose myself easily and often. I am resentful. I am just frustrated at the fact that I don't know who I am. What's the next step for him? Yeah. The essence of the work that we do here is we help men individuate and separate from the little boy within him. Because until he does that, he can't tell the difference between the boy and the man. He's a meshed. He's got the polarized lenses on of the child. He can't tell the difference. So, that's the first piece. But for someone listening to this, like a very practical thing you can start doing from this moment is start saying no. Fucking owning, you know. And that's your practice. And it's going to feel selfish. You're going to feel like a bit of a dick. Because for someone who's spent their entire life abandoning and neglecting themselves, finally saying no is going to feel very selfish. Yeah. Yeah. So owning that know and really prioritizing, individuating and separating yourself from your partner, from your your measurements in your life. And starting to get clear on like, well, who am I really? Yeah. And the truth is behind that is until a man reclaims a little boy within him, he will never actually know who he is at his core. Right. But a very simple thing is the practice of standing in your truth, owning your know, and embodying more of the warrior archetype, the one who's willing to fucking stand for something. Yeah. Because a nice guy, he can't stand for anything. He can't own his know. And the sad part about all of this is at the beginning, especially of a relationship with a woman, the nice guy will come across as the safe man. Over time, a woman will feel so deeply alone with a nice guy that came across as the safe man in the beginning. That would do anything at any time. He's always readily available for her. Right. Because no one can actually respect a man who can't say no. Because a man who can't say no is controlled by that very thing. Yeah. And there's no self respect. There's a complete absence of self respect as well. Yeah. And your nervous system, I can't trust someone who can't say no. Because you know that there's no alignment. There's no groundedness in who they are. Which is a crazy contradiction and almost like a complete perception shift in the respect that the nice guy might initially feel that by saying no, she will trust me less or respect me less. But it's actually that in the absence of being able to say no, she can't trust you. Because she knows she's not getting you. So what's then the difference between, this is really at the core of what I want to talk to you about in particular. Because you use this word safe a lot, the safe man in your bio. It's really, it sounds like the ethos of your work is helping men become the safe man. When I think about what a man would on face value say that he wants to be, the word safe wouldn't come up in my first like ten words. Like powerful, strong, dynamic, charismatic, sexy, attractive. There's an abundance of words that the man would choose before he chooses safe. So why safe word? Why that word? What does safe mean? And how would you define, and what is your argument or case? Not that you have to develop an argument. But what is the case for that word? Yeah. And this plays into my opinion or belief, whatever, about like a woman doesn't give a fuck what a man can provide or give or what he's done. If she can't feel the alignment between his head, his heart and his balls, his integrity, the connection to his truth as a man. You can be and I've worked with celebrities. I've worked with some very attractive people who are very successful, very physically attractive. Like have it all right. Yet their woman still feels emotionally unsafe with him and it's the reason why their relationship's not working. You can have all the stuff. You can look a certain way. You can have all the money like guarantee it. If a woman can't feel your presence, she can't feel the depth of connection that you have to like your truth as a man. And it's not through words. It's a felt sense. It's a presence. We communicate mostly nervous system to nervous system. And you can feel in someone's nervous system. This is why it's so hard for a most man because they just tell me what to do. Tell me. What do I have to say? There's all these books out there. I don't know if you're familiar with Neil Strauss's work at the game. That book alone is fascinating for me or his work alone because what most people don't know is that his second book is called The Truth. And it's about how he had to submit himself to rehab for sex addiction and a mother in meshed wound. But that seems like such a challenging thing for the man who wants to just like Ryan just give me tell me what to fucking say to like keep my woman around. That's that what I'm hearing you say is it just doesn't it doesn't work like that. It's all unspoken. I say a safe man. The safe man is a man of depth and true substance. Right. If you look at the word substance, it means sub stance. Sub means below the stance. Below what you can see. Below the performance, below the accolades, the achievements, everything this man looks out on the surface level. Beneath that, there's an unconscious substance. There's a felt sense. There's a resonance with this man's nervous system that I can deeply trust because I know that he's been there. I know that he has the capacity to keep going there to his grief, to his cave, entering the darkness. He's got a relationship with death and the darkness. Right. And it's only that relationship with his grief with the darkness that allows him to actually be the safe man who has the capacity to continue to meet a woman and his family in a way that they truly need because he's going to be willing to go into that cave and meet the parts of him, the immature parts of him that will continue to come up through the rest of his life that will show up that are preventing him from having the capacity and the depth to meet his woman and his family in what they're asking of him. The safe man is the man of depth and substance and it's mostly unspoken. It's an unspoken presence. Like I said, when it comes to communication, words are only 7%. The rest is energy. We're communicating nervous system to nervous system. the safe man right it's it's an unspoken presence through his gaze, through his eye contact, he's not looking around in this hyper-vigilant state. You can tell when someone's here. So it's like the only woman that you will attract through the tools that the game or other books like that might teach is a woman who's not connected to herself. Because she can't then feel, she's not attuned to what's behind the words. What will happen is if a man's using these dating tactics to court a woman there. If she's a deep woman, it's a matter of time before she reveals his bullshit, his lack of alignment, his disconnection from his integrity, his sexual energy, and where he's actually operating from. Women know, especially deep women, they fucking know. You can't hide anything from a woman. Sometimes they know how you're feeling before you, like 10 steps ahead. Right? Yeah, there's nowhere to hide and that could be really confronting. I mean, I've definitely felt that in a sense of our relationship and my intimate relationship is like there is, and that's not in a bad way, I hope that it's clear that I'm sharing that you are bare naked, I feel bare naked in my relationship often and it is shining on all the ways I've tried to hide, all the ways I've tried to protect myself, all the ways I've tried to perform to be loved, it is dissolving and I feel like in moments I feel like this tall, because I actually start to realize that that tall is the boy that I need to put my arms around so that I can feel this big, like you said, it has been the most profound initiation I've ever been through to be seen in all the ways I've tried to hide, you know. Yeah, and to be witnessed in some of my shameful, scary things that you've probably ever experienced to be witnessed and to just have someone to have a Nova system that's with you. That's dare. It's like I'm fucking here, I'm not leaving, and that's it, you know, a man's capacity, like a woman will initiate, initiate a man in the sense of she's going to ask more of him, more of his capacity than he actually has the capacity to give a lot of the times. And it's typically in that, the small window of like this is like overwhelming, this is too much, it's in that small window where typically the little boy comes out and it's like can you hold yourself in that space of just it being that just bit too much and can you stay, can you be there, can you hold the little boy and the younger part of you that wants to jump in and, you know, protect and justify and, you know, get his point across, can you hold that younger part of you and fucking be this reminds me of you seen the movie Goodwill hunting. Oh, yeah. Ways be he, his pattern is to leave before someone leaves him and at the end of the movie, the most, maybe the most powerful, one of the most powerful lines in movie history is Robin Williams when he says to him, it's not your fault, it's not talking to him, he's talking to the boy who has his father burn cigarettes on him. And it's like the breakdown is like, oh my goodness, I can't keep, here's this beautiful woman in my life that I want to be with and I'm trying to leave her because I'm actually deeply afraid that she's going to leave me and I can't bear the feeling of being abandoned like I felt as a child. Yeah, so fucking powerful. How we heal these parts of us that come up is it's not through not allowing them to come up, it's going to come up like that, that's the whole thing like it's very easy to be secure when you're single, say that again, it's very easy to be secure when you're single because you don't have this mirror in front of you, this reflection from God revealing the unresolved pain and wounds from your previous relationships and your childhood, it's very easy to have wounded in relationship where you heal in relationship with safe people, with nervous systems that can really be with us in our wounding, in it all. That's because I just want to stay on that life for a moment because the number of men who are choosing single over relationship just because it's more comfortable for you. So that's a whole conversation unto itself, it's like you just set us such a powerful way to put it, like it's very easy to be secure when you're single. Let's dive into that. I don't even have a question around it, but I just want to go there. When you're single, yeah, it's easy to feel like you've got yourself, like you've done the inner work or you no longer get triggered or those behaviors or patterns and no longer playing out or whatever because our wounds are relational, the wounds that we have from childhood are relational, which means they only come up in relation and like you can do the foundational work when you're single, like you can do some of the inner work. You can prepare yourself a little bit, but you're preparing yourself for the real shit to come up in partnership, in relationship. For someone who's, for me, embodiment's really important, I'm not in partnership right now. I've had some very, very beautiful healing relationships between my last one and where I am today. In that every time there's been so many beautiful gifts of opportunity for my little boy to come out and to come up, but now I've got the tools and resources to hold those younger parts to me and to be able to choose, to either choose to keep my heart open and stay and be grounded in this moment when every part of me wants to react or shut down or avoid, or choose to stay and to be able to hold this woman in the fullness of her expression and her wounds and her triggers, right, or choose to actually leave a situation that doesn't serve me because what I was once attracted to are the red flags I can actually say no to now. So there's a beautiful, I've been in this really beautiful season in my life of mission and purpose and dating and getting to and fuck man, the courage, oh man, the courage to keep opening your heart, the courage to have your heart on the table and to continue to open your fucking heart is like, is such a relationship with grief. And I've been in this beautiful season of dating in this intentional way of getting to really get to feel someone and have my heart on the table and be able to really honor what I need and what's most valuable to me and my future family and to be able to be really clear on that. And if it's not a full yes and if this person isn't able to meet me, it's like that's okay. And the capacity to continue to have my heart on the table and say no, to grieve, to feel, to process that, then it's allowing myself the spaciousness to welcome in the next connection. It's like, it's this intentional experience that I'm having right now of like, I'm calling in my woman, not just my woman, but the mother and my children, the one that I'm going to be, you know, meeting the deepest parts of myself with, and I don't take that lightly. Yeah, so, you know, there's so much there that, you know, I could speak about when it comes to dating in this way and, you know, the awareness that I have in the embodiment and dating. But to, yeah, to come back to your piece, it's like, yeah, I see a lot of people, that's the thing. It comes back to grief. People avoid having their heart out on the table because they can't deal with the grief of having to say no to someone or the grief of being rejected, like they don't have the capacity to be with that. So it's like, hey, my heart's not here anymore. I'm just going to keep it here and to myself and I'm going to isolate and go build my business and go continue to do high-rocks competitions and biohack my way around my grief and instead of allowing myself to have the level of courage to have my heart on the table. Like that's the gift that grief gives us, yeah. This is so unbelievably just, there's so many ways I could take this, I am. But where I want to go and I want to keep digging into this sort of safe, safe man concept and the reason is because it's something that I'm still trying to figure out and I'm going to set a little bit of context here. I grew up to two parents who were both professional athletes. My father played professional soccer at the highest level for Manchester United. My mom was a professional dancer. I very much collapsed the world of performance with love for a long time. And that world, of course, I was around a lot of other men who had done the same. And so it was reaffirming, you know. And then I tore my ACL and that took me away from the sport and I realised I'm looking for something deeper and I found myself in a great deal of spiritual spaces, you know, experimenting with psychedelics and therapy and men's groups and the Falsha Bang and what. I felt but couldn't name at the time was that I found myself around a lot of men that I felt had a sense of depth and maybe emotional sovereignty, but lacked personality. And I'm really now trying to sort of understand this or the side of healing, which is that for many men's therapy, men's groups, spiritual circles tend to be the vehicle. But what they think will be the destination is healing. The destination ends up as boring and they become stripped of personality. And I actually had written, I had written a little piece on this and do the support of all of our best friend today in some, some regard, Claude or Chachi B.T. had pumped this out and I really want to hear your perspective on it because it's a fascinating conversation for me. Here we are. The curated man syndrome says some men set out to be free and end up becoming fragile. There is a man who has done the work, you know him. He speaks carefully. He pauses before answering. He does not laugh at things that might be considered unaware. He has left the group chat because the energy is not aligned with where he is in his journey. He cannot be teased. He cannot be in a room that is not curated to his nervous system. He filters everything, every joke, every comment, every moment of friction through one question. How did that land for me? He went looking for freedom, he found a smaller cage, it just has better lighting. And here's what nobody in the healing world is saying out loud. The medicine became the prison. Men walked in, cracked open, raw, searching, alive with the urgency of someone who finally admitted something was broken and they emerged with a vocabulary for every feeling, a framework for every wound, and absolutely no personality left. The edge is gone, the banter is gone, the dark humour, the kind that tells you a man has made peace with the darkness rather than being grown by it, it's gone, and what remains is careful, considered, curated, and profoundly, tragically boring. The men who have actually done the work look nothing like this, they're warmer, funnier, more present, more dangerous, but in the right way, they can take a joke and land one, they can disagree without it becoming a conversation about their regulation. They have edges, they can walk into a bar, a boardroom, a funeral, a fight, and be themselves in all of them, they are not sanitised, they are free. The man performing the healing needs the room managed, whereas true freedom is not the ability to be comfortable everywhere, it's the ability to be okay anywhere. Those are not the same thing, a free man does not choose every environment, but he can survive any of them without losing himself. The man who cannot be teased has not healed his sensitivity, he's just built a newer, softer wall around it and called the construction project growth. And then there's his cousin, the hypospiritual man, the one who has transcended reaction who speaks slowly, pauses meaningfully, and has achieved a kind of performative peace that, if you look closely enough, smells identical to disassociation. He's not present, he's managed, he has not found God, he has found a sophisticated way to avoid feeling anything and giving it a Sanskrit name. The truest thing I've ever heard about this is that the real experience of enlightenment is the acceptance that you are not inliant, healing was never supposed to make you less of yourself, it was supposed to make you more. And if you came out the other side with less fire, less humour, less capacity for the full range of what it means to be human, the journey is not over, you stopped too soon, you confused the relief of the waiting room for the arrival, go back in. And this time, don't leave your personality at the door. Oh, bro, yeah, I know that all too well, that's really funny, by the way, that's fucking hilarious. I've played all those roles, by the way, I've played every fucking one of those roles. Yeah, it was funny. You were sharing that, I was just seeing images floating around, just images, yeah. And then an image came up, that was really funny, which is, you said, the inability to be able to share a dark humour, oh shit, at our last retreat, it was a funny, I was crying, laughing so hard, it was crying. There was 30 men all at the dinner table, just having the best time, just chatting and laughing and just breaking bread and just, yeah, it was so beautiful. And there was us, like the facilitators, there was no room at the table. So we had our own table, we were just sitting in like the lounge, just lounging around the couch, just eating dinner, had a huge day, and the dark jokes started coming out, and just hearing them from these men that are like one of our closest bros, he's a mythopoetic storyteller. And I'm excited for the world to begin to experience his magic because holy fuck, it is, I've got chills right now, even thinking about him, and the way that he ties mythology and story, which is actually the essence of writer passage is mythology and storytelling, right, the book Iron John, that entire story is about boy to man, and the continued path of the initiatory cycle of boy to man. Anyway, we're sitting there and, you know, there's this man that's like so intelligent and he's words are just so potent and, you know, everything that comes out of his mouth, you're just so like, yeah, yeah, on the edge of your seat, and then the dark humor that came from it, it was just, I couldn't believe it, I was crying, absolutely crying, I wish I could share some of it, it's probably not, but one thing he shared with me was he's like, the fully integrated king archetype has also integrated his trickster. The trickster is the playful wonder child, the one that can, right, actually have a laugh, can, can be in wonder and curiosity of the tiniest, most simple things, and also, you know, at the flip of a switch, be the warrior, be the king, right, be the magician, these, these masculine archetypes, you know, but the essence of what you just shared there that I feel is that is, that is the essence of what it, what happens when a man performs his healing because he's doing his healing work upon the foundation of the wounded little boy within him, where he's learning the frameworks, he's learning the practices, he's doing the breath work, the meditation, he's learning, you know, the Sanskrit languages and the mantras and the yogic pose, he's learning all of this stuff, but all of it's being built upon the original foundation of the little boy. And to come back to that wonder and that play and that awe and curiosity for life, and remember the individuation, the sense of self having that personality, it comes through entering the cave of our childhood separating, grieving from our family system and reclaiming that little boy, and I like to say the closest you'll ever get to God is to go back to the miracle that you once were when you were brought into this world, that awe and curiosity and wonder and presence of a child, they have a connection to God and spirit and energy, like no other. And the more I've connected in without little boy and I've entered that cave and I've built that relationship with my darkest, it's like those have been some of the closest moments where I've had no question that there is something greater that has its hand playing in my life. I don't want to learn spirituality from a book, I want to learn it from lived experience. And through the experience of coming back home to who I actually am and being the fullness of who I am, I think that's the most spiritual thing you can fucking do. Powerful. Yeah. This has been, I mean, I read that from the perspective of like I shared, like having played all of those roles and maybe there is a necessary part of the journey in which you do find yourself in those different roles. Obviously, myself coming from England, banter is a big part of the culture, you know? And I think I had, like I grown up and I've had some of the funniest moments of my life around my father, my brothers and the eldest of four and two younger brothers. And for a period of time when I was on my sort of healing journey, I sort of rejected that, like oh well, that's just, that's like that banter is shame and it's shaming and I got confused as to, as to like what, what does it actually mean to be an aware, integrated whole man? And there's a line in there that says that like he doesn't laugh at the jokes that might be considered unaware, you know? And I just found myself in that season, like just, I wasn't fulfilled, I wasn't happy or joyful, like this in the absence of the ability to be playful, I was denying such a massive part of myself. And now I reflect on that and the relationships that I, the, the men that come into my life that don't know how to be playful, I actually trust less. And it's interesting because we've had a few conversations on this podcast right now, but the ones that have been the most potent are the ones that we can go to this level of, but like immense depth and go there and two minutes later, I'm like crying, I'm almost falling on the floor, you know? And the ones that have maybe not really pissed are the ones where I felt as though the conversation was an attempt to avoid being anything, but like curated, you know? And so I just, I really want to understand, like go here for a moment with you because I know for myself for a long time and I can resonate with this with some of the men's reflections in my life that their aversion to wanting to go into the healing space or to do this work to heal their boy is because they don't want to come out boring and stripped of personality. So how do you, what do you say to that? I think with, with all things, it's like one of my, yeah, one of my favorite quotes is around sex is like the sex is feral because the safety is real. What does that mean? Like the sex can just be fucking wild because of the depth of safety that there is and that's been cultivated and the foundations and the relational dynamic that you've invested time and building and cultivating, therefore this sex can just be wild. And I feel it's the same in this situation where it's like the banter can be there. The jokes can be there, the fun can be there because the safety is there. Without that safety, it's typically avoidance or it's shaming or rejecting or projecting and but yeah, like my closest brothers, man, we are, like we joke and play around and and there's so much banter and they'll say things to me sometimes where some people will be like, "Oh, he just said that to you." I'm like, I know he loves me and I know where that came from and it is like, you know, that's that level of like we can go there because the safety is real, yeah, yeah, so there needs to be that level of containment and it's, you know, it's the people that you surround yourself with. Totally. I think a lot of men who are looking at the healing communities from afar maybe get this confused and it's like all of these men look so sensitive, they look so sensitive like tuning into their feelings and like a whole brother and you know, this is what I'm feeling and the sensation and there is such a, there is like this, there is this thin line between being in tune and being overly sensitive and like where do you find, how do you sort of describe the difference between them? Yeah, the most masculine men that I know have range and it's about the spectrum and the range in one moment they can be a like a fierce leader and be so direct with you and the next moment you can feel that heart like sensitivity and the next moment they can be in song or dance or prayer or meditation and another moment they can be in their warrior and it's like that energy of like, don't fuck with me like I could kill, I have that capacity. It's the range and wherever we resist going within that range is the work. So there's a lot of spiritual, floaty men, their range is very in that, you know, when we look at the energy centers, the chakras, right, they're very much from the heart up, very much out here, up here, ungrounded floaty up in space. The work is to anchor that in, to integrate more of the king, more of the warrior archetype within them. They've mastered the probably the magician and the lover archetype. It's time to actually step into mission and purpose and leadership and actually begin to serve something that's greater than yourself and become the man that that's actually asking of you to truly step into, it's about range. Yeah. Because being sensitive is beautiful, I don't trust a man who's not sensitive, right, to be sensitive is to be in tune and in touch with your heart space, right, our heart, right, the energy center of the heart literally extends out into our fingertips and when we think of sensitive, we think of, you know, like sensitive fingers, right? So to be sensitive is to be in tune and deeply connected to your heart, but that's only one part of the spectrum of being masculine. Yeah. Yeah. And men do lose themselves in that. Yeah. Yeah. So, sounds like there's a fracture between, not a fracture, but like the sort of two sides that most men might fall upon is, you mentioned the, was it the magician and the lover over here, which is the man who's up here. And then the other side is the, like the man who might be the king or the warrior. Many men maybe are just the warrior, but have not mastered the love. It's almost like there's a fracture between, like, there's the, there's this side of like the integration of men who have mastered or maybe find themselves most often in this magician lover archetype. The feminine. The feminine. Yeah. And then there's this man over here that is, is really afraid of going here, but has maybe you might see mastered, although I'm hesitant to use that word, the king and the warrior. Yeah. You can't master the king and the warrior if you haven't integrated the magician and the lover. Right. The, the king archetype only comes online. Right. Actually later on in life to around 40 years old where the king actually comes online, but if you think, like, think of the archetype of a king, they have a kingdom. They're a leader. He has a greater vision and mission and purpose in the world that he's serving and actualizing. He says people that he's delegating to do things for him, he's got warriors that, that's server, a mission for him, like, like, really think of the king and people throw that around very easily. Like a lot of men think they're in their king energy. Yeah. But I'm not even, you know, I, I definitely expressed the king archetype very heavily in myself, but I wouldn't say that I'm like in the fullness of my king energy. Yeah. Like that there's a, there's a lot of integration in other areas to actually get to that place. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't throw those around lightly, but what we're speaking about here is like, you know, the integration of the masculine and the feminine. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah. You know, I used to operate a lot in this world of the masculine and feminine and, you know, being integrated more in them, and then I started to realize that most of that is the byproduct and representation when we actually received the strength from our mother and our father. They are a first representation of the masculine and feminine energy. And when we hold wounding towards our mother and father, and we haven't actually separated from our family, and man hasn't broken up with his mother. He's still connected to her emotionally and a man hasn't left his father and his family system to which where he can actually choose his family. He isn't able to choose the strength from his mother and father, which is the masculine and the feminine. Yeah. So when we hold mother and father wounds, we're actually blocking the life force flow of energy from our mother and father, the masculine and feminine to enter into our life. Yeah. This is where, like, I'm very passionate about family. systems. Yeah. And how much like we want to do the inner work, we want to become the king, we want to do all these incredible things, we have to and we want to meet the deepest part of ourselves, we have to go back to the roots from which we come from because the roots is the essence of the tree. That's where it all began. And to work at the root is to have a direct impact in how you show up today or don't show up. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful place to end it. And this has been an amazing gift for me. Just thank you for the size of your heart and thank you for your wisdom and your willingness and ability to stretch across a variety of concepts and topics and nuance. And also just the patience with your shares has been really beautiful for me to see, like you're not being quick to go to an answer to really sit with what feels true for you is is wonderful. And this has been a deeply fulfilling conversation for me. So thank you so much. And for the people who are listening to this right now, maybe particularly the man who's listening to this who is fascinated to want to learn more about you and your work and what you've got coming up, working, working people, finding what's on the horizon. YouTube. That's probably hundreds of hours of trainings and teachings on YouTube. Instagram, Facebook, just my full name, Ron Mosby White. And yeah, if people just follow there, they'll be able to stay up to date. Yeah. We've got retreats, our retreats that are. Yeah, we've actually got a documentary coming out in two weeks. Yeah, about the retreat. And the work that we're really doing with men and the the journey, which is a five-day ride of passage, the ride of passage that men never received. Wow. Yeah. So that will be our episode will be coming up maybe just after that. So we'll make sure to put that in the show next if you yeah, if you send me the link to that. Yeah, that'd be beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Apart from that, Brahms, yeah, great for to be here in a beautiful place. And yeah, thank you You're having me, man. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much, mate. Cheers.