#009 - Mastin Kipp - Therapy is making you better at losing...

"Mastering Kip, it is an unbelievable honor to have you on the show. First time, publicly, but second time for you and I, thank you for being here." It's my pleasure, thanks for having me. Maybe just spoke of it about the desire deeply in both of us to replicate what we did last time, but wanting to come from just the organic space. But I can't help but begin with something that, beyond camera, has not left me since our last conversation. And that is, I ask you what you think the greatest challenge in the world today. And before I tell you what you said, do you remember what you said? Kind of. I was in a flow state. I have a general idea to hear what you said that I said. You said that I said, that you said that I said. You said it's not that we disagree. It's that we don't know how to disagree and remain connected. And I can't help but want to just begin there with you again, because how do you reflect on what that even means? Well, I mean, basically, if we don't disagree, then one of us is lying. And my purpose in life is to identify and unlock dormant potential and it will be expressed whether it's in a business or a person. And when you are lying with what's true for you, it might not be true for somebody else. That's called subjectivity. And there's billions of people on the planet, so we have billions of perspectives. And everyone's born with a unique purpose. And they're going to see things differently on purpose. So unless we need to all see something the exact same way, we have to disagree. And in fact, disagreement is a survival skill, evolutionarily, too. So we can attack a problem in many different ways. And so what's happening in the world today is, if you don't believe what I believe, then you are an enemy. And that could be both a political enemy, a religious enemy, or personal enemy, meaning in a relationship. If you're not, if my truth doesn't become your truth, then that's a reason for us to be incompatible, for us to fight, for us to be others, versus having what's called a theory of mine where I can know that I have an experience, but also know that you have an experience and know that it's different than mine. And while I might not understand it, there's got to be value in it. And maybe I never have to agree, but the least I can do is to understand. Does that make sense? Yeah. The least you can do is to understand, but why do you think that we have gotten so far away from the willingness to understand one another? I mean, the most fundamental basic answer is, when you increase levels of stress in the body, the nervous system shuts down the prefrontal cortex, good thinking. We get into reactivity and survival, fight and flight. And we put collective pressure on a group of people that happens in contagion, like with everybody. And so we're in a dysregulated state collectively, so we don't have our good thinking mechanisms available. Plus you add on top of that, everyone has these, you know, side of the social media, more is algorithmic media based on your most recent interests. I like, I'm very careful what I like now, because it's like, I like one cat thing. Now my entire feed is cats versus just like the stuff I want, which I wish could shift and change. So it's, it's, you're getting reinforced with whatever you're believing also. So it's, we're in these like, like little containers of what is comfortable for us basically. And so if someone says something different, then they're a threat to us because we're already a stressed state. And I have all this information that says it must be this way. And so we're in these self-affilling prophecies. And we're not able to step outside and say, you know what, tell me about your perspective. Yeah. How did you come up with that conclusion? Why do you think that's the right person for the job? Are you interested in what I have to say about it, right? Or in a relationship, oh, I see that's really triggering for you, tell me more about it. Yeah. I never have to agree with you. But if I can understand you, then we've come closer together. Yeah. So I want to go to two places. Where's the threat? We're under threat collectively. And then also in relationship. Yeah. So I want to go two places here. I want to go into the consequences of that on an individual level and also the consequences of that on a global scale. Like what? Let's start with individual. What are the consequences of not knowing how to disagree and remain connected on an individual level? I mean, you'll just be alone whether you're physically alone or not, you'll be alone. Like you could be physically next to somebody and a million miles apart emotionally. So you will not be known or you'll be in relationships that are very fragile or shallow. And you'll wonder why it never worked out for you. Like you'll look around and go, why does everyone else have their act together? Like why are they? Why is everyone else in my life progressing and they're getting married and having kids? And I'm like the one that's left behind, it's because I can't really be the person who can get into other person's perspective, for as lots of people, why people can't do that. Or if I'm in a relationship, I either become dominated by someone or become dominating to someone because they have to either agree with my reality or I have to agree that there we are, one or the other. And both people are not being fully known either. And if you're the person who's always agreeing with somebody, no one's going to really know who you are. You're never going to really feel known. People who are, you're agree with, you never gave a chance to know you, to disagree with, also. And vice versa. So I think that the consequences of not being able to disagree are, you don't grow, you don't rupture, you don't repair, you end up alone, you end up isolated, you end up sad, you end up behind, you end up wondering how you got there in the first place and all as time has passed. And then you passed on to your kids, you know, if you're lucky enough to have them. And so, I mean, there's a lot of negative consequences. What are the, I mean, this is so profound for me, we could geek out, you know, hold three days, we can just on this because I want to understand how somebody can develop the skill of allowing themselves to disagree and remain connected when they've spent their life being quote unquote, agreeable. Sure. So let's talk about the phenomenon, so we have a label for it. So what we're talking about here is called differentiation. So when we're developing, the first thing we do is we become ourselves. Let's help individuation. So I'm becoming who I am in the world. And as I develop a sense of self, it's super important that it's different from my parents or family origins. So that's because teenagers will start to really rebel or whatever that's developmentally appropriate. If you're doing it when you're 40, maybe not, right, but at 15, 18, sure. And so I become myself. And then I go out into the world with all these other people who are doing the same thing becoming themselves, you know, but we have different perspectives. We're trying to tackle different problems. And so eventually we have to form new teams as this person that we've become. And now we're going to disagree. And if we continue to individuate, we'll just continue to separate, right? So if in a relationship, if you're together and then you individuate, it's called a divorce. Okay. That's what that's called, right? Differentiation is, I'm going to stay here with you, connected differently, and you're going to do the same thing. So you're going to be you and I'm going to be me, who we really are. You know what? It's going to be some, there's going to be some tension, though, there's going to be some disagreement. There's going to be some heat. Yeah. And it's going to surface whatever's unresolved from my history, typically, from childhood and stuff like that. And especially in intimate relationships, your specific wiring and mine will be uniquely opposite. Yeah. So the one thing that triggers you is my favorite thing to do or advise for us, right? And so be able to work that through and work that out is also how we grow. Yeah. Our subconscious wants that on some level, which is why we get the same pattern over and over and over again until we resolve it. And so what we're talking about is differentiation, which is we are different together and we actually value that. Yeah. We value that. So have we gotten confused in relationships in thinking that to be compatible with someone means to see the world the same way as correct. That means one of you has to collapse or another word for that is emotional fusion, right? So if you look at why do we get divorced, they cite irreconcilable differences, which is means we can't be different together, basically, right? And some people have irreconcilable differences, but differences grow you. What you have in common will bond you, but your differences will grow you. Yeah. Do you think a lot of people get divorced because they haven't even tried to be different together? Almost like they've just given. Well, actually, when you look at differentiation, sort of like how it plays out in relationships. So in the beginning of a relationship, you have fusion. You have that romance honeymoon phase that's like developing only necessary. So you spend lots of time together, lots of emotional bonding, physical bonding that's required for like that attachment to happen. And during that biochemical cocktail, your ego, the person's ego collapses and you kind of form this one unit. And the only thing that's similar to that is when the mother and child are in utero, the last trimester is very similar biochemically, which is why you have that kind of like mama gloom and his postpartum depression because all those chemicals go away. So it kind of recreates us like unison, it's like symbiosis, but we collapse parts of ourselves to maintain that. So at about 12 to 18 months of being together, it starts to fall apart. And so to maintain the bond though, people will keep their preferences collapsed. Right. So it's like, well, in the beginning, I didn't really matter what the temperature was, you know, because whatever. And now we're 18 months in and it's really hot in here. And I want to be at 16 out of 70 and I want to say anything, but I want to rock the boat. Right. So that type of stuff starts to happen. It's necessary. But people don't work it through. So you end up having one person collapse, one person who's kind of dominant, and you just move forward in time. I almost feel like the reason for that is because it feels like you don't want to be seen as having buried your truth for that amount of time. Like it's hot in here 18 months in, but it's been hot for 18 months and I don't want to be seen that I've been dead out in my truth for 18 months. Possibly. So that's very possible. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you reconcile that and then go into an honest conversation. If you feel like there's certain needs that haven't been met for of that, length of time. - So let me finish the model and then I'll answer that question. So most people just move forward in this way, where it's like they're just in this pattern and they have to deal with it. And then they can't take it anymore and they fall for a divorce, right? So that's most relationships in a divorce. Now, sometimes differentiation sounds like I want a divorce, but what you're really saying is, something in me is waking up and I can't do this anymore. So the question I ask yourself is, you want to divorce the person or the pattern? 'Cause those are different things. So it is normal to get so frustrated that you want to give up. That is where you start to differentiate again, basically. So the chemistry is worn off. You've been in this thing, I can't take it anymore. What you're saying is my sense of self must reactivate. And so you can either cooperate with that together and know that that's a pattern that can happen and celebrate someone sending a boundary. Celebrate someone saying, what you never spoke up on that before. Now you speak up on it, this is great. I mean, to know you're in a deeper level. I didn't even know you're like that at 60. Let's figure that out, right? Let's get a thing for the, you know, let's talk to Ben Greenfield and figure out how to get the thing in here cooler. You know what I mean? We'll figure it out. So you can recognize that as desire wakes up, that you're actually celebrating a loving that person together at a deeper level. And when you disagree to see it as two people being more authentic and to be on the same team, meaning we're gonna learn how to disagree well, right? And if you can do that now, a new sense of self emerges, but in relationship, and we can have what's called synergy, and where we have a new we, but we're both fully known basically. So that's the whole pattern. And then it starts all over again, where you go back in love, you have this whole romantic phase all over again. And then, you know, pattern continues basically. That is so powerful. You are like just a bucket of gold, because that statement, I'm gonna use that now, is do you wanna break up with the person of a pattern? - Yes. - How do you know? - It really depends on what level of game you're playing. - Okay. - Like, what I mean by that is, like, are you in it for spiritual growth, or are you in it for convenience? You know, like, I play a spiritual game. - Okay. - So what does that mean in the context of relationships to play a spiritual game? - It means that, playing relationships as a spiritual game means that you value the spiritual growth more than you value spiritual growth more than selfish desires being met. Which doesn't mean you self-sacrifice, but it does mean that if you're getting growth out of the dynamic, then there's gonna be seasons where, maybe you're having sex for a period of time. Not because hormones are low, or because you're not supposed to be together, but because maybe a trauma is emerging in someone, and it's not that appropriate time for that to happen. Maybe you hang in something longer than your friends that you should, because you feel called to. Maybe you go for someone who doesn't give you that initial chemical hit, because you're trying to choose in the opposite direction. So it can look like going way outside, or you're violating some of the good dating advice out there that's like black and white. They're all in or all that, but if you want to, he would, like, all this shit makes no sense, right? It's like, it's like, if he wanted to-- - If he wanted to, it was like those phrases. - Yes, there's a powerful distinction that I really wanna break down, because I think a lot of people, myself included for a long time, have gotten confused with what it actually means to be in a lasting, healthy intimate relationship. And you just distinguish this dance between, are you in it for spiritual evolution, or are you in it for maybe pleasure and the short-term comfort? So just, I wanna go deeper into that rabbit hole to be a call-forward for those maybe particularly men who might run away too soon in the face of discomfort. - So first of all, the number one mistake guys make, and we're talking heterosexual guys, okay? They make interrelationship is, I find a woman that I'm attracted to. I'll say this way, they find a woman they're attracted to, and they get turned on by her. And their first impulse is to control her. The right thing to do is to set her free, because everyone else is trying to control her, and if you can set her free, you will have her heart. And that's something that a lot of guys don't understand, is that if you can find a way for your woman to feel free, she will worship you at the deepest level because nobody has given her that gift. And so what happens is a lot of the dynamics you're describing is about control. And when you're in the game to control the other person, now we're in what's their attachment style, and what's their trauma, and what's their sign, is it compatible, and let's do all the run analysis, and all these different things, versus like, wow, this person sets me free. Wow, and that can be reciprocal, totally game-changer relationship. It's a different standard. So a lot of the, like giving up too soon, well, you're giving up too soon because you're trying to control something that's supposed to be set free. - So I have two questions, then there exists in both of those, that statement. The first is, how can a man set a woman free, but the other question is, what often do you find exists behind the desire to control? - Yeah, well, I mean, for most guys, if you just look at history, it's about money, power, and prestige, basically, and control. And if you look at a lot of the publicly known sexual abuse movements, right? - It's never really about the sex, it's about the power. When you really talk to the survivors, I have clients that have been in some of those high profile cases. It's always about the power, it's never about the sex in and of itself with the desire. And what happens is, men will, there's a whole in-sell movement, involuntary solids, where they basically don't know how to have sexual relations with a woman. And so there's like a lack of understanding the other side, and then there's a lack of desire being met, and that starts to form like a rate, it's really an anger, basically. And undeveloped men will take that out in like physical violence or other ways. Development will find, you know, some type of passion to channel that into or physical movement, something like that. And then learn the skills of relating to the other person, specifically the opposite sex. And so it can manifest in really dark ways, but that's basically what we're looking for is power. And so, but there's different types of power, right? The ultimate power is to have non-reactivity, and to find someone beautiful and to set her free. That is the ultimate power, 'cause you know, rare that is for one to receive. - Can you just say that again, the ultimate power? - The ultimate power is to have non-reactivity, and then to find a woman that you love and set her free. No woman has ever, not actually no one, very few women are given that gift. They have to comply, they have to conform, they have to do what he says or else. And usually, a lot of times, you know, not always, especially today, but usually the mask only the provider in some level too. So like, I have my survival based on all those things. If you get to a woman free, one, you're in security's little surface, because will she pick you still? If you're not in control, will she choose you? Will she be faithful? Will she be loyal? And hopefully you made a good choice in who you picked also, 'cause you don't want to set a cheater free, 'cause then they're just gonna go cheat on you. - This is such an interesting piece, and I want you to continue there, because what I'm starting to pick up is that the desire to control and the desire to set a free are both attempts to get to the same destination, which is this sense of loyalty and commitment and deep reverence for one another. Just one's a dysfunction. - One's based on compliance, and one's based on choice, right? So one, you can try to organize someone to comply. - Yeah. - But it's not true, it's not real. When it's freely chosen, that's the best. So what does that look like on a practical level to set a woman free? - It looks like noticing what she loves and giving more of that to her. It looks like if she's like a big, bright, inner light person to let it shine, encourage it to shine, don't dim it, don't be insecure. If she may be better at certain things in you, let her encourage her. - That's a big one. - Encouragement is really big. I think when you see the light in her, let it shine. Encourage it and let it shine for its own self, not because it's what you want. - Yeah. - And so it's a devotional act in so many ways. And so, and you do it because you love her and it's a gift that you give to her. And then by doing so, you would think a biochemically healthy woman would that would produce royalty in most women. - I have an example here and my partner sat behind the camera. You just mentioned like if she's better at you than some things, let her be. My woman is a badass business marketing fucking genius. And earlier this year, we ended up splitting our business relationship. But I think a lot of that occurred because I couldn't handle the fact that she was better at me than a lot of business endeavors. And I think it triggered in me the feeling that I'm not a successful entrepreneur. And I'm not a, I don't know. Can you, like, if you would have support me in breaking down what was happening, where would we go? And I know that she's like right there. What I would say is, is that it takes a big man to let her be bigger. It takes a strong man to let her shine, and I think that what was happening is you were equating your sense of purpose and pride in a skill set that might not be your, like, calling. And so as a misappropriation of your power, probably, in my guess, do that feel right? Yeah. So that's not what I meant to do, but because I think that's a thing that I'm dividing my sense of worth from a power or ability, if she's better at me than it, than I won't be valued in love. Yeah. So maybe you're mad enough to let that go. Maybe I am. Maybe. Yeah. You know, I don't know you guys in terms of your workings, but what we're saying is true, we're probably going to be both of you happy. You're okay. Yeah. She's super shiny right now. I know. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, this is a magical conversation for me because it's just the not so distant history in which it's been a relevant conversation for me. And it's interesting because I would, if you can let her shine and know that that shining brings her joy and that that is your devotion. You came more about that than being something that you're not anyway. Like that would grow both of you in true medias ways. And you would know joy and a love is super rare. You already have super rare joy and love, but this is like another level, you know, it's like 10x already, but you'll 10x or 10x, you know, yeah, I think there's this interesting dance for me. She actually held a pretty strong weight. She's loving it. She can get in with you. Just reaffirm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so this is beautiful. I think I've noticed in myself that because I do like to feel as though I am a sort of genuine deeply compassionate, graceful, human, a man. And I'd like to think people sort of would see me in that way as well, that like it's almost it's almost like I would predict that I wouldn't be the one trying to control a woman in a relationship. You know, but that pattern, even subtly in that moment emerged. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, I wouldn't say that you controlling her, I would say that you're limiting you. How so. Um, controlling a woman in a relationship is a lot more duplicitous and like a manipulative is, uh, it's what time are you home? I always need to know where you are, what you're doing. I don't trust you. Let me look at all these, like there's a, I mean, there's a, you know, time in place, if you're going to go through a hard time to go without a break, but saying these rules, right? And there should be rules and relationships, but there's a, there's a, there's a different tone to it. Yeah. Right. That's what controlling is. This is more like I feel or me, you feel, I think, uh, not enough because of her like in this area. So you said no to it, which is not controlling. It's more, uh, distance, it's a boredom, right? Which maybe there's some control now, but you're not controlling her. You're just not letting yourself shine basically. Yeah. And it's also, it's also like, is that right? By the way, totally. Oh, and it's the subconscious feeling that I want. I'm looking at her. Also see if it's right. Yeah. It's a, it's the subconscious feeling that like, and I don't consciously want this, but in the moment, where I feel like I'm being dwarfed, it's like, be good, but don't be better than me. Because that, that, that is too much for me to handle. Totally. So make it too much. And then what? Find out. That's what I mean. I thought I got to find out. F***. F***. I think you can see the more you fuck around the more you find out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so what would be that practice then like, hey, love, I am noticing that as a result of you being such a genius in this space, this is what is activated in me. No, I think the practice is, hey, I separated our businesses because I was intimidated by your power. Sorry, my bad. Do you want to renegotiate and maybe come back in and shine and I'll do my best to chill my ego out in this area and let you shine? Maybe we could try a small project together to see what happens, you know? She's not in love with us. Yeah. Yeah. We, the girlfriend, Kim, also right now, to verify that the girlfriend, the current ability or nervous system right now is really strong, you know? Yeah. So, you know, like, my sense is just you probably wants that, you know, like, there's a point at which I can allow it. Yeah. And you don't have to allow it. And by the way, you can have a great relationship that doesn't have any new business, you know? But once you want to find out, if I were in your position, I would want to find out. Yeah. Well, that was the initial desire as I wanted to find out, but then I couldn't understand why it felt so confronting, but now I can recognize that the confronting piece was that I felt dwarfed by the genius. Yeah. So, so this is a person full circle moment. How can you set her free? Let yourself feel dwarfed by her genius. That would be a great gift you give her and you get to give yourself also because you'll find out that you're more than how you currently see yourself also. Because if you feel dwarfed, then you're not even identified with the true part of you. Because if you were that great at it, you wouldn't, she wouldn't be better at it than you are. Yeah. And then, yeah. And that also brings up the part of me that, like you just said, like, why do I have to be that great at it in order to be deemed worthy as a man? Yeah. The short answer is programming, trauma, and comparison. Some version of those things. And for me, how should I put this? There comes a time where introspection is super valuable, but it's like, what are we doing about it? Right? So, it's like, you know the pattern. We've discovered it on this conversation, right? So, what do you want to do about it? It would be my question to you, which could be, I could if I the wound and figured out where that came from. Let's find out. Yeah. I mean, the wound. The wound was quite clear to me and maybe a sort of step further, a step sister of the initial wound, but like, growing up to a family of professional athletes, my father played for Manchester United. My mother was a professional dancer, like this collapsing performance with love has been a very deep pattern for me, and like, if I'm not performing and I'm not deserving of love. There we go. So, you're not competitive at all, are you? And anything, you're probably super non-competitive, you probably just hate winning. No, I'm fine. I mean, sarcastic. Oh, yeah. I'm messing with you. No, I'm messing with you. Uh, at business, but this is like winning at your soul. What's the difference? What does that mean? Winning at your soul means, uh, I'm here for a purpose that's bigger than this role in this business. And by allowing her into shine, I can shine even bigger. So why have I collapsed then? This is, I hope this is okay. Yeah, that's really funny. Yeah. This is about you, not me. That's mine. Mine with me. So why have I collapsed? This is fascinating for me. Why have I collapsed? The fulfillment of my purpose with being good at business. I mean, most people combine those things, right? But your purpose is not just business. It's just one manifestation of it, but also what you're doing in your business and who you're being in your business is more than an operator or a marketer. It's like the actual talent, right? Which is like really owning that. Like I don't hear you saying that I feel competitive at the thing I'm uniquely gifted at. I feel competitive at this at all. That's what I'm saying. Right? So like, I'm hearing you say, I feel competitive. It's not even good at. Really? Well, and something I don't even know if I want to be good at. Right. So notice that, right? And then let it go and let this beautiful woman do it because you're not even good at it and you're going to want to. So you can shine over here, which is what she probably, this love, this reminds me of a hilarious conversation we had in Florence in Italy where we were, we were, it was the first iteration of the business and she jumped in to sort of support me in an old iteration that had died. And we had this epiphany in Florence, Italy. It was like, we are trying to go through people we don't even want to talk to, to get money from the people that we don't even want to serve, to then serve people we don't even want to serve. It's like, we're jumping through all these loopholes to eventually serve the people we don't even. What the fuck are we doing? Yeah. Good question. Yeah. Good question. Yeah. That's a really interesting concept for me because you're right. I don't feel competitive in the podcast space. I just, there's an innate knowing that I feel very gifted at this and it feels like I can just allow myself to be supported in other ways. Totally. competitive. in the business space because suddenly I feel like I'm not a good businessman. - Maybe you're not compared to her. (laughing) But it doesn't mean that you're not a great man. It doesn't mean you're not great at business, right? Because in our space, like what we do, the personality, like there's a pair of social and dynamic happening, right? Like the audience feels that they know you at some level. - Yeah. - Right? Maximizing that is the highest leverage that you can do in the business. Not being good at ops or charts or-- - So what does that mean? - Tell me what does that mean. - Be your true self and let that be supported. - Yeah. - So that you can free your time to do those things more. - Yeah. - So how do you reconcile this then in the perspective that like I love the work. Like I love coaching, I love podcasting, I love the actual operations aspect, I despise. - So where's the, I don't see the problem. - Because it feels like if a part of me feels like I'm not allowed to despise that if I want to go to the quote unquote next level. - Right. - So do what you're not allowed to do then. - And despise it? - Yeah. - And then want being someone else that-- - Fafo. - Fuck around and find it. - Yeah. - Yeah, like there's different ways to adjust parts work. We've found a part of you that you're up against, okay? One way to do parts work is where to come from, how old is it, where do you feel that in your body? Great, love it, okay? At some point, guess what? You're gonna find out all that information and it's still gonna be there. It's not like finding out where it came from and how it was, it's still there, it's still biology, okay? It lives usually in the brain stem as attachment responses. They're automatic reflexes. So now that you know that that's there, what do you want to do? I think going into what's called parts agreement is a really good idea. - Okay. - And I've never heard someone talk about this. I think I came up with it. I don't know if I came up with it, but I think I did. Maybe I didn't, if I didn't find the source, someone will probably see this and go, "As she masses this, which I would love to know." But I think it's me. So we'll give you an example of parts agreement. I tried to client once, and his story was that masked and you know, women only like hassles. They only date hassles. And I thought to myself, and I said to him, "That's weird. I work with lots of women and I don't know one woman who ever put on her vision board. I want to date an asshole." I've never actually met that woman, so tell me more. And long story short, what he started to describe as asshole behavior would be things like texting her and saying, "I'll pick her up at six." And I'm thinking like, "Okay." So he's equating masculinity and assertiveness and being an asshole for bringing his dad was masculine. And an asshole, and he put those two things together. So I could sit here and convince him, "That's not being an asshole, man. That's just being masculine." What did I say? "Well, he's a good person. He wasn't abusive." I said, "Okay, for the next week, I want you to be an asshole to women." 'Cause in his mind being an asshole, the behavior is actually a assertive masculine behavior, which is healthy. But in his nervous system, he created it with asshole. That makes sense. So he's feeling like he's being an asshole when the actual, like being an asshole is not the problem, his relationship to be an asshole. So he labeled masculine behavior as asshole, but he's not, he's a good-hearted human. Okay? So he's not, he doesn't have asshole in his nervous system. As actual, as would be experienced by him. Yes, okay. So he came back next week and he's like, these dates are going so great. And within like a month or two of the girlfriend, he couldn't believe it. I go, "How is it going to be an asshole to women?" Was this shit worked, right? But what he realized was, is that he had equated this thing called masculine with this other thing called asshole. And what I realized was is everyone has that, basically. I don't wanna, you know, for me, it's like, I don't wanna, my core wound is like known to show up. So I could sit there and give that part of me all the information about why people are not gonna, look at how they followers you have. You sell seminars or retreats. And what you're talking about, people always show up, you best line books, masks, and what you're talking about, Oprah. You, people show up. Yeah. The part's still there. So for that part, I just say, you know what, we're gonna go do this event where no one's gonna show up. We're gonna have a career where no one shows up. And I just relax it. So it's like, "Oh, okay, thanks." So it's just not fighting it. - Wow. - Right? So it's like parts agreement? - Yeah. - And it never actually happens. - Right, it reminds me of that quote. There's a great quote that says that the ego doesn't want to be healed, it wants to be held. - Yes, that's right, yeah. - Because I think people do all this work to think it's gonna go away. And it's a reactive pattern still go away, right? So you could either put all this work into disagreeing and showing you information and all the, we're just, yeah, we're gonna go do this thing where I feel like I'm a complete loser. But my girl's gonna shine and my podcasting I thrive even more. Hell yeah, I'll do that. I will lose at that game to win at the degree game. - Does that make sense? - So that's what it means to like solve this business. - Yes. - Yeah. - Is like to go into business potentially with my partner, for example, and talk to the part of me that knows I'm gonna feel like I'm being dwarfed. - That's right. And if you wanna go to the next level, you wanna get excited every time you show endorsed by her because more light is coming into your life. - So the way that, see, if you're unprepared for the next level, God or the universe or light will look like the devil. - That's a big statement. Hang on, just say that again. - If you're unprepared, when God shows up or the light shows up for your next level, it will look like the devil. - What does that mean? - It means that you'll be so reactive to it. You have so many triggers come up that you'll think this is actually bad. It's actually the light saying, all your prayers are about to be answered. All you have to do is feel really bad at this job. (laughing) - So all I have to do is feel really shit of business. - And your prayers will be answered, I promise you. (laughing) - Last time this is blowing my fucking mind. I've always thought that all I have to do is get really good at business. - Oh. - And you're telling me, all I have to do is allow myself to be shit of business. - To feel as a business. - To feel like. - To feel like I'm shit. - Like for me, every time I'm like, everything is about to leave. I'm like, oh my God, light is coming through. I have abandonment fears coming up, God is near. Oh my God, it looks like the end, the light is so close. And people around me are like, massing your fucking crazy. And I'm like, just watch me do my thing. And every time eventually I hang, I don't react. Next level of murderous. They go, just so lucky I always know or that I always knew you could do it, right? And it's like, I've been to that pattern so many times. And every time you level up, it's gonna show up in a more overwhelming way than before. - So everything is a personal record, it's just as hard. - So it's like the illusion is that we think it gets easier, but it doesn't get easier. - It doesn't get easier, but the scale gets bigger, right? So your personal record used to be curling five pounds, and it was 10 pounds, that's 100 pounds, right? But curling 110 pounds is just as hard as going for five to 15, right? So it's like, the personal record is always challenging. But if you look back, you'll be like, well, what you usually trigger me doesn't trigger me at all anymore, but the next level does. And it feels the same in our system. So we're trying to get rid of that without recognizing that's just what we have to live with and work through and welcome so that we can step into the next level. So when I feel the most abandoned, myself talk is that I use sort of like Bible, Kabbalistic, languaging. I see the darkness as the opponent or the enemy, but it's like an impersonal enemy. It's not like an actual enemy or opponent. And it's actually a positive force. The skies is negative force. It's actually for me to give me this reactivity to make a choice that's greater. So when I'm in reactivity, my self talk is, the enemy is here, the light is closer, stay. The stay. Do not react. And most of the time I'll react inside, but I won't react outside. I usually just react outside and spill it out and fucking up the next level. I'm gonna win and work out. And I'm like, why am I not graduating, right? 'Cause reactivity. So now I just feel it in my system. Nine times I attend, I will pour that into my actual life. If I do, I'll tell someone like, okay, the enemy's close right now. It's all around me. And just love me right now. And I'll tell you what happens later. And most of my friends and people love me know what that means. And it's not superstitious. It's not like demonic. It's just like reactivity. It's like reactivity in my system. Or the opponent or Kabbalah, it's called, so it's they call it satan. It's the same idea. Or trauma responses. How do you wanna think this is resistant pattern? I'm so familiar with it though, that I can feel it coming. And so I hold it. And not only do I hold it, there's a level of me that's actually excited for what's next. I've actually wired in my system now, positive anticipation during those moments, where I used to just be like the end is near and then nothing so it'll work. Versus the end is near, but something is going to emerge. I've had enough of them, where I can have like 51% of faith to work out, versus like 49%. That 2% is everything. Do you have a specific example in which that sort of experience has unveiled itself for you? So many versions of it over the years. One example would be one of the biggest levels up I had earlier in my career was somehow Oprah found me and had no Super Soul Sunday, which felt like made no sense to me at all. Like why, this is like Eckhart Toli and Gary Zookoff and Wayne Dyer. Platform for like spiritual thinkers. I'm like 28 years old, it does not fit. And I got to invite Gabby Bernstein-Reforrio to join me. But like, I remember like in Los Angeles, Gabby and I were on the same flight, Delta flight from Los Angeles to Chicago. I'm sitting there like wondering if I should even get on the plane. I'm like, I don't even want to get on the plane. All this reactivity is happening in me and Gabby was there with me and we kind of talked it through. And thanks to her, I got on the plane, right? And then like being interviewed by Oprah. Like I remember the interview I was like just checked out and for sure thought it was horrible like this is bad They're not gonna use it or whatever and then when it came out Not only was it received in the most powerful way over DM me and she said by the way Maya Angelou watched and she loved your section to thought you should know and I was like thought I should know I started crying right? I was like holy cow and I thought back I'm mostly getting on the plane now my angelou loved by thing on super soul It this is like what's happening in the world, right? And that was one of the first moments where I was like maybe it's a pattern So I started to look back with so many like a worker somebody clients and music business previously I could start to see that pattern and took a long time to develop a really positive relationship with that pattern to the point Where I can anticipate it now for the most part and also when I'm working with people I know I can see it easy It's way easier with somebody else Sounds like another way to put that pattern based on the language you've used is the like where the enemy is God is near Not only that where the enemy is is caused by the desire in you That's emerging that's causing the reactivity that you get to choose through to be more light the creator be more like God in that moment That's how you expand in cobala. There's an expanded your vessel I have choices so in the presence of greater darkness I choose greater light to be more like the creator to be more like light to be more like God That is the whole spiritual game, right? And so my reactivity my Soma my trauma responses that's the darkness So I'm experiencing it. It's happening, right? And I'm still choosing to align with abundance and joy. I'm not bringing I'm not pushing them down I'm not to show shame from them. I just I see you. I love you you're with me But the reason why you're here is because I'm expanding and you think it's not safe and the the trauma responses the enemy Whatever you want to think of it as is a history report not a prophecy It's all based on the past trauma responses a history report not a prophecy correct Correct Try no sponsor says to go up on a promise Is that what you have in this club? That is pure mail in the back. Yeah, I'm amazing. It reminds me of Something I saw of you on Instagram saying that I'm gonna butcher the full essence of the court but that Basically, your role is to teach you a nervous system that fear is not a stock sign correct correct Yeah, most people feel fear and they stop and For me actually I'm at a point where I don't feel fear. I'm actually afraid That was like yeah, yeah, fuck like I should feel like I should feel like where I stop growing or something like that You know, but basically like I'm all about growth So I'm facing a regular basis and I have like big goals and so I get big fear It doesn't if that's how we're wired right? It's like we have a big club. We have a nervous system. We have a automatic responses We have a video system. There's all these different things right trauma responses, soma all these things You can't go into something new that you've never been in before it's more than you can handle not be afraid of it This is how it works. It's just like the biology of it right so surrender to that and recognize it when you're afraid This is not like someone has a gun to your head like if you're in mortal danger. It's different, right? Otherwise, it's a sign calling you forward, right? That's why I think a couple years back Tim Ferriss went viral for like the fear list, right same idea, right? So it's just like you face your fear It's every story is about courage about facing your fear. It's about recognizing that you're more if you do it Dedicated to a purpose larger than yourself, right? Even better. It'll be supported by life in a greater way But fear is um fear is a necessary ingredient for growth Without fear like you're not really growing you know, hmm So you now You're actually worried when you're not afraid in some ways. Yeah, like it's like a uh, there's a like I could be peaceful I can find peace. I can find stillness, but generally speaking if I'm not Slightly freaked out. I'm not really growing because I know I can be a tiny little bit more risk Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, so it's almost like it's a sign that you're not close enough to your edge Yeah, and then sometimes I go over that like okay, okay back it up back it up back it up a little too much a little too much Also, it's like a dynamic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's that's another interesting dynamic for me because it's like I can feel all the times In my life in which I have taken major risk And there's a part of me while I'm inside of the risk that's like oh my god I would love to just like be in my bed at home right now comfortable And then I go back and I'm in my bed home at comfortable and there's a part of me that can't resist the urge to go and put myself in the same nightmare quote-unquote that that I Was so desperate to get away from that so long ago. Yeah, you know, it's like wherever I am. I want to I think I should be part of me Things I should be somewhere else. Yeah, I mean I that's that's sort of what I'm saying. I think What I'm saying is like that like if you just surrender the fact that's how you're wired To like be on or off and just do them better Right like do on better so that like you're in something that you don't want to escape But it's still intense. That's growing. It has purpose and then you're off Like there's a balance, right? Yes, it's like I mean It's also this deeper underlying constraint that wherever I am I superimpose often than I'm doing something wrong wherever I like this is too intense I shouldn't have made it this intense. I it was I over committed myself It was overwhelming and then I'm at home like I just said wisdom surge was indeed surgery last week It's like I've rested too much and I shouldn't be in bed this long and it's like No, no, no, what I'm hearing you say is just allow yourself to be in The polarity events and when you're in that self-talk of what you're not supposed to be doing or what you should be doing differently The light is close Right, that's that's that reactivity again, right? So that's the enemy. It's the trauma response. It's smack response It's the pattern whatever you want to think of it as right underneath that is desire What does that mean like I don't know one person who isn't If they're facing a fear to go to the next level The antecedent or what comes before that is a desire to get there So what causes us to confront our fear is a desire to follow yeah, yeah It's like the same if it's your calling it'll keep calling yeah, so so you're the own that like I have a desire So if I'm resting I have a desire to get back out there. Yeah, if I'm out there I'm exhausted. I have a desire to go rest Right, so that's normal. It's normal. Yeah, it's not something wrong. Yeah, it's normal I can guess what I can predict in your future that you're gonna keep doing that So you might as well do it better Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, you know, so like I know in my system when I have a level up right now I can't talk about but it's like a major level up and like the last we were talking about like what I've been doing last I've been proactively not reacting to my reactions basically Because it's been my nervous system is like I'm like the nervous system guy and my nervous system last month Has been like bro alarm bells times a thousand I'm like I knew this was coming and I have not been doing anything other than finishing this thing and Not reacting outside on the inside. I let it fully run its course But on the inside and also I knew it was happening because I could see the opportunity manifest I go well the enemies close. Yeah, so let's go into this here then because my initial Wanting or desire to understand here is when you tell me that your insides are going virtually ape shit but on the outside you are Not reacting to the reaction correct that's happening inside some might say Well, that's performing that's not being authentic. How do you reconcile that? Uh, well, it's called maturity Yes, I don't have to I can be authentic and not dump on people one also um Emotion comes and goes the work we do stays And so it's it's it'd be one thing if I was saying that that's that's not happening Yeah, if I was pretending it wasn't happening. Yes There are people that I tell it's happening to Also, there's a time when I'm executing where it's not the time to do it if you're on the court And you're playing yes, right. That's not the time. Yeah, it's not time to collapse. No later. Yeah process. Right. So it's also timing and strategy and maturity And so, you know, what does it mean to be authentic? Well, if it means that I let every emotion run every conversation That's more like being authentic child. Yeah, then an authentic mature adult. Um, and so I can be one authentic and also focused on something and also I don't share what I'm going through. I share what I've integrated Like I'm not one of these like I don't feel safe. If I'm a I'm a I'm a Professional coach. That's what I do. I work with people in a very high level. Yes. Okay. If I was processing out loud What I'm going through right now Nobody would feel safe around me. Hmm. Look at Right, so it's like a way of forgetting safety also for my team, for my clients that like yeah I'll share a lesson that I've integrated that I'm congruent in. Yes. I'm always going through something Yeah, always. Yeah. Right always. Yeah. Um, but like I can still come off Regulated I can still come off mature and also I don't need to give you that labor That's a label. It's a it's a emotional labor to give that to a client to give that to me. Yeah. Yeah. Like they don't need that They're coming to me for something. Yeah. I have a I have outlets for that. Yeah. Right. So it's it's placing it properly also Yeah, so like what does it mean to be authentic? What what what would that mean? Right? Does that mean just emotionally vomiting on people? That doesn't feel authentic to me. Authentic to me means I'm going to serve this person serve that person serve myself and create - The highest good. - Yeah, I think we've got a maybe misconstrued in large part in society that true authenticity means like authenticity as a leader means to let all out what you're in at this moment. So that's really a refreshing tape. - If I was a influencer. - If I was someone who that's what people came to me for, maybe it's appropriate. Like there are people who do that and that's part of how they do it. And but they're also usually like not the person who's like responsible for helping someone with their mental health or reaching the next level in their company or in their relationship. - Any a profound one. - So it's like, for example, right? If you're a rock star or an actor, you have different expectations of a professional in that arena than someone in my situation, right? If I was behaving like a rock star in my position with drugs or alcohol or whatever it might be, right? Or flandering like an actor or some of that. Like we expect certain people to do that. We want them to, right? So it's context, right? So for my position in my role, that's not who I am. It's authentic to me. It's also wouldn't be appropriate for that role, right? So it's like, but there are people where that's appropriate for their role. So it's also like, what does it mean to be authentic? And the role that I'm in, it's not who I am, it's also not what I serve. But there are people who do, I mean, there's a whole get ready with me, routine with influencers and stuff like that. I don't have any shade on that. But those people usually aren't responsible for the mental health of other people. They're usually like doing stuff like a product or service or something like that. That's not like working with someone's psyche and soul and karma, you know? - This is interesting because it's almost like what I'm hearing is that there is a tact to the game. - Yeah, that's the way I see it. Yeah, and I'll also-- - It's a skill. - It's a skill. - It's context, like I'm, people look to me for answers. And so I have to model that. Otherwise, you know, what I say doesn't matter. - Yeah, yeah. - And I think some people on social media like follow different people for different reasons. - Yeah. - And there's a whole category of people that I have friends of mine that their entire business is, hey guys, this is what I'm going through right now. And not one of them is in the mental health world, by the way. They're appropriate for what they're doing. And it makes perfect sense. And it feels like completely aligned. I just think in what we're doing, it's a little bit different. And maybe also podcasting versus what I do is a little bit different also because, like, it's hard for me to get my mind around processing where I'm going through the moment. I think one of the coolest things I've seen recently, which I think you put it down, was Ramosie talking to Tony Robbins. - Totally. - But if you look at that in so many ways, like, it's after the fact. I know he took it down. I don't know why he took it down. But like, like, Ramosie made it. And now he's being deconstructed, right? It's not like he's doing it in the bill, right? And so I think that, and also it's not about his next level. It's about where he was, right? And so I think that, like, I think that, like, it's just, like, I'm happy to share about anything of the process. - Yeah. - So I think, and it sounds like to be famous, is not that you are quote unquote hiding, you are choosing to be responsible for the path that you are committed to. - Yeah, and it's a situational context, right? Like, is it appropriate? Is it in the person's highest good in front of me? And by the way, also, do they have the capacity for it? (laughing) Like, I would never hand, it's like, I would never hand, like, say, it's authentic for me to curl 75 pounds, okay? I would never hand it to someone who can't hold that weight and go, here you go. It's authentic for me, so you should hold it. (laughing) It's authentic for me. And I can say, oh, maybe I'll give you the thirdness, you know? 'Cause I'm aware of who you are. Or, wow, you do 100 dance, show me how that works, right? So, like, when you're looking up, what are you referring to in that? - If I can only do 75 and I can do 100, it's like, well, show me how you do that. - So, that's like, almost like mental, mentee-type relationship, right? So, what I totally get done now, yeah. And what I hold is like, for most people, I would say they were considered intense, my experience. So, I don't. - But have you had to build to that? - Build what? - You said, what I hold, people consider to be intense. Like, if you had to, so much of your work surrounds nervous system capacity. So, I'm assuming that you've had to build your capacity to be able to hold that level of intensity. - Well, it's always been the same intensity, but the outside world gets bigger. (laughing) - It's always felt the same intensity inside. - Yeah, because I'm always pushing the next level. Like, if I had stopped at any of the levels previously, it wouldn't feel intense. And also, there's been so much momentum and so much growth and stuff like that like the conversations. Like, most people would freak out at the numbers or would freak out at the risk profile, would freak out at the potential upside or things like that even possible. So, it's like, it gets, it just gets rarer and rarer. To one, be able to talk to someone who has contacts. And then two, the emotional piece of it is, do you have the ability to not take it personally? What I'm saying, 'cause I come off super direct in my relationships, and like, maybe I'm spectrumed a little bit, I'm not sure. I once seem to be on a spectrum these days, I don't know. But like, I'm just super direct on things. And so, I think, like, I'm also aware, like, what's someone's capacity for that? So, I give people chances to demonstrate their capacity. Probably my biggest flaw is I, it's called positively project, my own capacity on other people. And many times, they don't have it. So, I hand the 75 to someone who can't hold it and they don't have it. And I get hurt my own feelings. Hmm. I don't feel like I'm feeling so. Yeah. Yeah, so I try not to hurt my feelings as much as I try not to. You know. Where does faith play a role in this? And the reason I ask is because one of my favorite quotes I've ever heard from you, it must have been, I think, 13 years ago, it may have been on Oprah, where you'd shared moving into the pool house. And it was, how big was the, just for context? I mean, how big the pool house? Eight by eight, yeah. And you had shared that you were speaking to God. And you said to God, like, "Why am I in such a small space?" And his either response you got was because that's the size of your faith. Yes. Yeah. Well, you know, you think about like abundance. Like, the world is massively abundant. There's all kinds of places one could land up. And I remember just thinking like, eight by eight room, I'm used to so much bigger. And I thought like by taking this risk, I'd be rewarded right away and all these things. I wasn't. And so, yeah, the answer I got back was, this room represents the size of your faith. But then immediately it was, and then I remember the good book says, "Fate the size of a mustard, so you can move mountains." And I looked at the room, I was like, "You can put a lot of mustard seeds in this thing." A lot. So immediately I had abundance again, which was really beautiful. And it ended up being true. But that was a really powerful moment for me. And you go check also. So I think sometimes when you're playing like a spiritual growth level, we think, once you have the insight that life is, you know, shout out, like give us like the parade, ticker tape parade, money and fame. And usually it's just like the opposite happens. Like the darkness is like, "Hah-ha, now I'm here." And like we see how much you really learned, you know? And then on the other side of that is usually some celebration. Yeah, yeah. So I didn't realize that in the beginning. I thought once I had the awareness, life would reward me. And I found out, no, that's not how it works. That's not how it works. When this is powerful for me, when you just said, I immediately had abundance again. What I hear in that is that abundance is not circumstantial, it's perspective. For sure. Yeah, totally. So let's break that down for the person who feels like they are waiting for some form of relationship money, something in the external world to feel abundant. Yeah. Well, so previously that moment, I was in a career that was thriving in the music business as a manager, but it wasn't what I wanted to do. It was not so fulfilling, right? So I had financial abundance, significance, like most of the human needs checked, right? But growth and contribution were not there. And so I made a decision to go into this line of work. And I thought, oh, I had a spiritual awareness. And I've already used this abundance, this is transfer. And it was just like not even close to the same scale. And so in that moment, I had a model that was abundance. Yep. But I realized that it was aligned with a lack of fulfillment to growth. So I actually have more here than I'd ever had because I'm now growing and contributing in a new way. So that pattern is new. So for that pattern, this is as big as it's gotten so far. For that pattern, that's as big as that pattern we got. Or for this pattern, this is as big as it got. And that's a better place to build from than waiting for it to match before I believe, right? And so because it never works. And I can't tell you how many people I tell to, I've also made something to help me look. This is the best practice. You gotta do x, y, and z to produce this result. And they're like, well, but, and they'll give you all these reasons, why not? And I'm like, I just gave you the key, the kingdom. And they told me what else you got, "Maston, like, are you kidding me?" Like, I got nothing else. I gave you the key, so that's the answer. And it's like, they'll say, well, "Maston, you understand, that's for that successful person." Or this successful person, what they think is, oh, because they're successful, they can do those things without recognizing they're successful because they did those things. These are the things that come before the success. You don't see, you see the headline, you see the exit, you see the big reward at the end. You don't see the struggle, right? What's that quote, takes 10 years, they're going to overnight success? Yeah. You don't see the struggle. Why do we talk about with founders? We hear the beginning in the garage, where it's like back in the day, oh my God, whatever, right? These two geniuses. And we hear about the billions are now trillions. Yes. No one talks about the messy middle, right? Yes, this is powerful for me. And I really want to, I want to continue the conversation. around that. But I want to go here for a moment and where where I want to go is the world that we are being we are that many young people are growing up inside of is watching 18 19 2021 year olds that almost seemingly have skipped that whole process and they're just multi-millionaires. So like it's almost like it's creating this sense of unhealthy rush in younger people to feel like I'm behind because I'm seeing this 19 year old on social media that has 200,000 followers getting grand deals doing 50 grand a month already like how do you how would you sort of guide a young human growing up in the world today that has yet to make them more and now witnessing others that are maybe younger of their age that have seen great question so so first thing I would say is that because of technology it has now become a lot easier to make success happen which is I think net a good thing yep right what it takes to maintain success has not changed so so lots of people arrive I would wonder first of all who that person is looking up to and then I would wonder how long is the person looking up to bit around person that looking like yeah like do they just get successful are you is it worth it like who are we talking about right like because like different people of different track records if you're talking about someone who just got successful that's not someone who I think you should go up to or model because I want to know who they are a year from now two years from now five years from now 10 years now are they still here they're you know my coaches I've seen come and go over the years and like usually it's like a coach will get super successful in business or life or a spirit or whatever and we'll be all about what are they doing to then they go be like they have other though people are kind of like trying to be like them because that's the successful thing and then that coach will fall and then have an authenticity moment of like I was abandoning myself and now I'm gonna have an authenticity redo rebrand or whatever like I see that happens so many times no shade it happens all the time but then most coaches or people won't make it through that fall to come back right I've fallen come back like I don't even know uh weekly for a long time you know um and I don't also make it super public spectacle of it because it's like not what I'm about but like uh like it happens so much so it's like who are you looking up to is the first thing I would say right and if it's someone who's just been here let's let's why do you look up to them what is it about them that you like okay because those are disown parts of yourself but also who's like that that's been around for a while what's their journey like because when you study people have been successful for a long periods of time it's like a decade plus almost all of them have faced bankruptcies financial forecasters relationship problems suicidal ideation comparison long periods of failure or seeming lost right like all of it right yeah and then you can write size yourself and go okay sure there's lots of people who are getting successful but who's staying successful and by the way at what right because there's lots of people that could be successful relationships the doke it significance on social media there'll be lots of people who are super successful in business but maybe not so much in their relationship and there are certain people have both right just a rarer right so I would really want to look at that person's role models and motives and try to find the right ones first and create right context for someone so shift first who you're looking to as your role model yeah it sounds like shift from the person who's just gotten successful to those who've maybe seen success for a decade plus yeah because that might shift your perspective on the narrative that is it's not supposed to be this way correct I was at recent church adventure to Malibu I came from pastor it's great line he said so many people are praying for a miracle but unwilling to put themselves in a position to need one that was like I literally what like whoa like and they were also like all quiet I like made all his noise you know I was like holy cow like that was yeah you know like god give me a miracle okay put yourself in a position need one I'll give you one like no I won't do that you know wow so what does that what does that look like what is someone who's trained for a miracle what does it look like to put yourself in a position to need one go further you can handle more you can handle more you can risk more you can do more you know like look at Elon right oh my god right like that guy could you imagine the amount of fear that's in his nervous system and he does not project on other people like oh my gosh right everyone's like he's cutting like $100 million dollar a month of deals now in Google at SpaceX for like compute and stuff oh my god this is amazing space it's not like you're trying to dollars like he has a trillion dollar nervous system like fear like he's localized a million dollars a million dollars of fear in his nervous system for all this time he earned it right like how many people make all that money and they put it all in two companies and risk it all who become the chief technical or whatever officer because no one else is gonna do it try to buy ICBMs from Russia and stuff like that and you almost lose everything blowing up rockets if people think you're crazy right he earned it right you went to the edge multiple times he slept on the floor Tesla as a leader right like who does that right very few people right and guess what everybody has that same potential god calls all of us to that level if we want it but we're unwilling to face the fear and pay the price on a nervous system level he has all the hacks he has all the AI you to ever need he owns all the AI you ever need and he's still metabolizing his fear at that level he talks about what it's like to be a business right looking at the ways he talk about starting to the abyss to me on glass or something like that right that's where it takes but there's just a it's just an emotion it's all it is you know so yeah so it's like you want those results but you're not willing to put yourself through the chaos of getting them you know you can do more you can definitely win not everyone has that a trillion dollar company right it's a massive outlier but what I love about Elon is he's honest about it he's so direct about it and he's becoming wealthy and like with SpaceX about to a public he'll become a trillionaire he's gonna graduate an entire class of new billionaires along with him like unlike a lot of you know people who he's been compared to she's making lots of people wealthy he's not hoarding it which I think is really special is there's contribution there and I think that's why he's winning because he cares about selling more than himself and that's why he's able to produce his outsides rewards so there's a high level of carrying and contribution that powers his his success but but it would not be possible without what we're talking about and and so whatever that is for you you can write size that to you it could be a $10,000 risk it could be a $5,000 risk give you a million dollar risk a billion dollar risk feel like the numbers is getting bigger yeah every year but it doesn't it sounds like it doesn't change what you feel inside you just have to learn to metabolize that's right if you're growing if you want to grow if you want to if you're ambitious yeah yeah that never goes away maybe one day with Neuralink and we'll go away just off switch and be amazing you know that is so powerful from that pasta I'm never gonna forget that so many people want a miracle but they aren't willing to put themselves in a position to need it correct that is also so counter to what might be deemed like rational maybe intelligent smart business advice but it's like it's in some ways it feels like sometimes the right spiritual move is maybe the wrong business in a way I mean look when you talk about investing right a good wealth advisor investing person that you're working with is gonna ask you what is your risk tolerance so just play your own risk tolerance level my risk tolerance is very high yeah right so you don't have to have my risk tolerance but if you want growth you have to have some level of risk tolerance and you know good investors good financial people do their best at the risk things but nothing's ever fully de-risk there's always a risk on something so what is your level of risk and then are you willing to do something that seems counter to to achieve that thing and if you add in spiritual side of things which is like a higher calling than just financial risk then it's am I willing to do something that seems so insignificant in the eyes of other people but is so significant in the eyes of God am I willing to become nothing to become something am I willing to do those things am I willing to follow the unseen force more than the outside world that's a different thing altogether and I'm not talking about the voices in your head that like you know I'm talking about like a deep fidelity to like inner truth like you know something that just is true because you know it are you willing to follow that versus what the outside voices are saying that's a whole other conversation and it will seem counter to this people how do you know that that voice is the inner truth how do you know how do I know I feel it I just I know what's true and I feel it it's like it's like it's also like a knowingness so I had a gift to be clear cognizant so just in knowing and I don't know how I know you just know I just haven't that's how it presents for me some people hear things see things but there's a there's a there's a fidelity there's a there's a tone to it on the inside that's like a truth tone like when I'm following my intuition and people like what are my intuition is okay have you ever had a tiny life where you had an absolute intuitive yes the answer is okay yes I do I remember that okay great what it feel like I felt like this thing in my chest where there's kind of expansive or okay that's what it feels like for you everyone has that hear me a decision you regret yes okay go back before that decision was something telling you not to do it yes okay what does that feel like okay so there's the no right it's not that hard to find it yeah um but It's different for each person also. - I think what I'm taking from this episode, I mean, so many things, I can't even sum it down into one sentence, but like this capacity to take risk is might be one of the greatest modern dysfunctions. It's like the, sorry, not the capacity to take risk, but the inability to take risk might be one of the greatest modern dysfunctions. And especially with young people going up in the world, like do a lot of work at young boys. And one of the things that I see often in them is that it's not that they make the wrong choice, they make no choice at all. - Totally. Well, that's also a choice. - Which is a choice. But that is in a sense the absence of risk. - Yeah, I will say, if I'm speaking to someone in your audience right now that they heard that, but they're ambitious, what you also just said is, if the great risk, it's also the tremendous opportunity for someone who's willing to, to risk, right? So it's like if we have instant ease in all these things and most people are now opting to easy life, that means that there's less competition for the bare stuff also, right? So if you're someone who's growth oriented hearing those words, this is a great time to be alive also. - I'm fucking fired up. (laughing) - I'm fucking, can't wait to take more risk. I'm like, let's go from the inside. - Yes, from the inside, yes. But even just how congruent it felt even just hearing the resonance in your words, when you looked at me a minute ago and you said you can do more, you can do more. It didn't feel like a guilt of a shame thing. It's like, no, no, no, no, I know you know you're doing a lot, but you can do more, you can do more. - You can, everyone can do more. Everyone can do more. Are you willing to do more? And that might mean, are you willing to ask for more help? Are you willing to do more vulnerability to set down the ego? Right, what does the more mean? This has always been more effort, right? But there's always more and we can handle a lot more than we think we can also. - Yeah, and it sounds like we can handle a lot more than we think we can if we can develop a relationship with the understanding that it's supposed to feel this way inside of me. Like this is a unique perspective that I'm getting from you, that is that it's not supposed to feel any different than it does when you're trembling inside. - Correct. - Every level, and you just took it to the absolute grandest of the level with Elon Musk. Like he's metabolizing $100 trillion of wealth inside of his nervous system, staying into the abyss, eating glass. - Yeah, 'cause if you actually listen to him, he's future-paced, like so much abundance beyond, like he has a whole multi-planetary vision for things, he's talking about what it would be like to be the first person on Mars, to be an entrepreneur about certain products. Like do you imagine being the first person that sells shoes on Mars? How, I'm like, you've thought through that far, the future? - What? (laughs) That's incredible. Like the amount of like simulations he's run into the future, but I can't say all those things. So we're at like, I also think that based on his grand plan, we're at like 0.001. - Yes. - Of what's actually been simulated as a system also. - Yeah. - You know? And so I think it's a beautiful thing to model. And what I love about Elon, whether anything is, he's honest about the hard stuff. And he doesn't bullshit people. He's like, this will probably fail. You know, like we started SpaceX so this will probably fail. (laughs) It wasn't like, you know, some raw raw thing, like let's positive things, like it was, likely the failure was very high. And so I think operating for that place is also a really powerful place to operate from, because then if you know something might fail, you'll probably take action even greater action if you think it's gonna be successful before not to fail. - To mitigate the risk of it failing. - Yeah. - Oh, that's powerful. - Yeah. - So it's like probably, it's like physics thinking. - Yeah. - It's almost in a way, a way to set yourself up for success. - Totally. - Well, I mean, he's modeled at success. I should say, he's modeled business success. - Yes. - I wouldn't say he's model relationship success. - No. - But he's model certainly not. But he's model of business success in a phenomenal way. - Yeah. - By his actions. - Yeah. - And if you study it, there's a lot of takeaways. - Yeah. - Of how to align your success with the laws of physics, which is super awesome for principles that can be modeled. I would not model his relational life at all. - Okay. - At all. - Yeah. - In a trail of sadness there. But, you know, the price you pay for what is created also. - It also sounds like when you say you can do more, when you're describing someone like Elon Musk, like the grandeur and the size of his vision, it also sounds like there's a conversation surrounding how many people are not doing more because their vision just isn't big enough. - Yeah. - Which I mean, it's very possible, you know. Like, I think that like a quirk and a planetary system and a solar system and a universe, I'll have a purpose and like summer super small, summer super super large. And so I think it's more like, is it, oh, if it's about bigness, I think it's about how compelling is it for you? Are you excited about it? And how much caring is there in it for other people? Like, if you have a self centered mission, it's not going to go very far. You will not be rewarded for that for very long. - Yeah. - If you have a mission or a purpose that's rooted in caring for more people than yourself, that tends to be supported by life in the universe also. So, and how much personal joy does it bring you? - Yeah. - I think those are all important factors. The size of it in comparison to other people, it's going to be, it's going to feel big for you. - And it sounds like how much personal joy does it bring you. But also, like, it can bring you personal joy and scare the living. - Powerful. - For the shit out of you at the same time. - That's combo. - Yeah. - Like, I've arrived at the conclusion. I could be wrong. I think this feels like a first principle. That life is beautiful pain. And they balance each other perfectly. If you focus on the pain too much and not the beauty, then you get stuck in the sort of like negative reinforcing place. If you focus on the beauty too much and you don't recognize the pain, then you kind of get in this positive, dissociative place. But if you experience some beautiful pain, you'll see that they balance each other out. And so that to me is what grace or fairness is not like where is the fairness in this. If I'm going through a loss, there's going to be some type of beauty on the other side. I can find the beauty in my loving. I can find the beauty in what I had. I can find the beauty in the fact that I had something in the first place to love. I can find the beauty in the wisdom that I'm learning because of the loss. There's lots of things I can find. If I overemphasize the pain or overemphasize the beauty, things get a little out of whack. Or if I think these are only beautiful or only dark, right? But if I can find a beautiful pain, that feels like a really powerful place to operate from. And so your purpose, what you're doing, should have beautiful pain. It shouldn't just have pain. It shouldn't just have beauty. It shouldn't have beautiful pain. Yeah. It reminds me of a line in a song from Steven Wilson, Jr. that says grief is only love that's got no place to go. Like you just said, like inside of the loss is the love that you felt. The only thing, the only thing I could find is a context for gratitude associated with grief, which is really hard to find, was imagining if I never had that person in my life in the first place. If I never met them, if I never knew them, what would my life have been like? And finding the gratitude for having someone to love, which also means having someone that could pass on the relationship ends or whatever. And so if I get gratitude for the relationship in the first place and to recognize that that was a gift, I didn't create that, something that was given to me, then I can find some semblance of peace in my heart that that was given to me. I didn't deserve it in the first place. Oh, that's so-- It wasn't even mine, you know what I mean? You also just referenced what might be a new outlook on how to discover gratitude for someone, which is to discover gratitude for an experience, reflect on what life might have been like, had you not had the experience in the first place? By the way, when I was going through grief, I did not want to be around grateful people. I was like the anti-gravity person. I'm like, this is big, this is bullshit. And I remember one day, I was in a meditation, I found this perspective and I was like, I cannot believe it. I'm gonna be the gratitude guy. This is crazy. No way, like, no way. Like, this is me figuring out that I was gonna be a life coach after being a music man. I don't know, like, more of those cheesy life coaches. Like, oh my god, you know? I'm gonna be the gratitude guy now? The gratitude guy, right? The gratitude guy. So, but it is recognizing that all of this is a gift. And it wasn't-- you didn't give it to yourself. I mean, maybe not a soul level you did. But like, ultimately, this whole existence has been created by something larger than us. And so, if you're mourning something that you've lost, mourn it, but recognize it wasn't yours in the first place. They weren't yours in the first place. They were a gift given to you by something larger than yourself. And you could find gratitude for having it and hold the loss of not having it. Both of those things can be true, and that's beautiful paint. 'Cause if all you're doing is focusing on what you lost, you are misrepresenting what that was. It could be a relationship or a person. I've lost people close to me to suicide, cancer, loves of my life, like, I've lost all kinds of things, pets, all kinds of things, right? And not wanting to reconcile it. And I recognize none of those people or situations were mine. They were all given to me. And I was made better for them being in my life. I can have some humility in my grief, if that makes any sense. That perspective helped me shift and it helped somebody else shift. That's beautiful too. 'Cause if we over-identify it, just. I agree for missing everything, we're missing what it really is. Oh, it's a pop. There's a few places that I really desire to go. There's a question that popped up for me as you were talking, and that seems to be subtly dancing in that realm, so I want to understand it more deeply. Is healing only valuable if there's a pursuit associated with the desire to heal, or is healing valuable unto itself? So let me answer that question with a question. Okay. Let's suppose for a moment that you're walking down the street and all of a sudden your foot hurts and you stop and you look down and you notice you've been nailing your foot. What would you do? My initial reaction would get the nail out of my foot as soon as possible. Okay. And then what would you do? Packed it up. Make sure it's not infected. Put a bandaid on it. Okay. And then eventually what would you do? What would happen? What would you do? Okay. Go back to doing what I was doing was that I've. Right. So no one is just healing to heal, right, we're healing on a context, right, and the goal is to get back in the game. It's not. But do you think that that's powerful, but do you think that a lot of people get lost inside the traffic? Totally. Yeah. So let's go there because it's like that. It's a big conversation. Yeah. But but but she really has no purpose outside of a larger context. Okay. So for example, I have a client, very well known individual and they were told by a by way, I'm not against therapy. Yeah. But this is just true story. So I told by a therapist that their career is over and that they should sit in the grief. And and I heard this like maybe about six months after it happened and this person come back to me to work with me. And when I know that this person is a method actor, okay. And so I'm thinking to myself, like, did this person take on grief as a role like a like they were a character? And I thought, oh my god, yes. And unknowingly this therapist had put them in the role of grief as a method actor. I mean, everything became grief for this person. And so they were just acting out grief. And they came to me saying they wanted to become a therapist and this would be like, I was like, what? Like this is crazy. Had to deprogram it. Well, shortly a little bit of time and eventually they got back out there and are crushing it again. But like, like my takeaway from that is like, how long do you have to sit in grief? For example, in the situation, right? How long does a nail, how long do you have to be like, but that nail in your foot, right? Like, does it need to be very long? And healing is one step in a larger process. It's necessary. It's important. And the therapeutic community as a whole is about helping you unpack wounds and find context for them and agency in your wounding, meaning a sense of power, right? And to restore sense of self. It's not about winning the future. It gives you a capacity to get back on the field. Like a physical therapist will work you with your injury, but then when you get back on the field, you're with your performance coach, right? And they need to know about your injury. You can warm up properly. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Different things, right? But like physical therapy is physical therapy. It's not performance. Yes, yes. If the whole purpose is to get you back on the field and ends up happening sometimes is you get professionals who don't know how to win, helping people cope with losing better and that's as far as they go. Who the fuck wants a coping skill? I don't want a coping skill. So I want a winning skill. You get professionals that don't know how to win helping people deal better with losing. Yeah. And that's kind of what happens sometimes. And it's like, I don't want to be a better loser. Like, I'm not trying to judge anybody. I just want to be on the game of what matters to me and I want to win what matters to me. Right? Not what matters to other people. What matters to me. And I found myself in a lot of therapeutic relationships getting really good at losing. And I was like, I don't want to be good at losing. This is fucking sucks. Right? But that was me recognizing that like, oh, it's time to graduate from healing. And I take a therapeutic approach to performance. But the industry of healing wants you, it's kind of like the healthcare system wants you to be like healthy enough, but sick enough. But sick enough because you still need that. And the same thing in the healing community. It's like, we want you to have agency but not too much, right? Because now you're privileged or with all these things start to emerge, right? And it's like, well, okay, it's a privilege to be me as a soul, as a privilege to be a white male person. Okay, I understand all that, right? But it's also a privilege to be a child of God, a privilege to be able to walk into a purpose and to serve people and all these other things as a privilege to win it what I'm uniquely programmed for. And the same thing, sure, for you matter to race a religion or sexual orientation, political preference, right? So to me, the fix is not regulation. It's winning it what matters to me. So powerful. I mean, what were to talk about at the beginning of this conversation with me having grown up in a heavy performance based background, I've always found therapy a challenge. And I've been in therapy throughout my life. And I've all, I've found it a challenge. I think you just gave me some of the languages to why? Because in moments, it feels like I'm not, I'm not here being supported in getting back out on the field to win. I'm just being supported in getting better at losing and that doesn't feel. And it's like, there's a season for it, but it's not, it should not be the thing guiding your future. Like, if you, especially, if you have a high trauma history, okay? There is nothing more corrective than to win at the thing that you were traumatized by or through, right? So if you were traumatized by sexually, to win at your sexual power would be the best corrective experience, right? If you were traumatized financially, to win financially would be the best corrective experience, right? If you were traumatized because of your color of your skin and you get a power in the world because of the color of your skin, that's going to be the best corrective experience for you in so many other people. And so I think that like, to me, what's the purpose of the healing? If it's a part of a larger play to get you to know what matters to you, not what matters to me or anybody else, what matters to you and your soul, that is the best thing ever. And the last thing I want to do is cope, how long does it cope for? Yeah. Yeah. So this is an interesting conversation because it brings up for me a specific person that is David Goggins. It brings up David Goggins. Obviously, a heavily traumatized upbringing, heavily traumatized knees also, heavily traumatized knees and toes and ankles. Many would share that, obviously, he's quite controversial in the respect that some people would call him the greatest, like the King. Others would say that so much of what he's done in the world and the pain he's caused for himself is a compensation for a wound. And so what do you say to, when you just were talking about the greatest thing you could do if you've been hurt in one area is to win drastically in that area. Someone might say, well, to win drastically in that area is actually a compensation for the party that feels inadequate in it, doesn't make sense? Yeah. Congratulations. You discovered physics. What's your point? Everything's a compensation for something else. Like, my left side is compensating for my right side. My front is compensating for my back. My body is drawn to the earth, compensating for the laws of gravity. It's like, yes, everything is a compensation. Do you enjoy it? Is it valuable to other people? Yes. What is wrong with compensating? Yeah. No. I know. Absolutely. As soon as someone in a therapeutic context saying something along the lines of the goal is integration, not compensation, and to arrive at the place in which you don't feel the need to quote unquote, win, to feel like you've reconciled with that. And that's why you're losing. Yeah. Like, the goal in my life is to win what I care about. I want to win at serving people. I want to win at the people who are closest to me in what matters to me. I want to win at what matters to me. I do not want to be working with someone who's helping me be less ambitious. I want to work with someone who's helping me be more ambitious. I reject the premise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Says who? Says who. Right? So therapy is important in a process, just like athletes of the best example. You get injured, or even if you're a picture of the Tommy John surgery, put yourself on purpose. Right? You're out for maybe a year or two, right? But there's a process. There's surgery. There's physical therapy. You go back to the minors. You work your way back up. Like to win the world series, right? Like there's a progression there. And by the way, once you win, you're back down to zero. You go win again, right? So that's the pattern that we want to be in, and the wins get bigger and bigger and bigger. Right? And so it's like, that's the pattern I choose. You don't have to choose that pattern. That's the pattern I choose. That's the pattern my clients choose. No, it's the pattern I also choose, and I have found myself in seasons. Not choosing it because I think that not choosing it is the right thing that I should be doing. Correct. Yeah, it makes sense. And I should, like, my ambition is a compensation. Yeah, but like, it is. It is. It is a compensation. Who cares? Who cares? So what I'm hearing you say, Martin, is that my desire to fucking win and destroy everything in my path to winning is fine. It's fine. Well, on a level, right? Like, what do you mean by destroy it? Right? So do you mean like, I came from this board of soccer, and it was like, my dad used to always say, from the moment I was, I must have been six years old playing, it's like, if you're dominating a team, don't take your foot off death. Yeah. So like, in this context, I would apply that pattern to the part of you that doesn't want to let her in the business. Don't take your foot off. That pattern is thrown. 'til she's fully integrated with this this. To bring it back to this conversation, right? So yes, sort of, the desire to win, yes, to crush all the blocks, yes, but elegantly, not violently, right? And but the core idea is that desire to win is good, right? How you do it, elegance, tact, serving other people, benefit to people, all of a sudden it's super important. Everyone's compensating for something. I would argue that the desire to not win and to find that as a desire is compensating for something. Also. - Yeah, I have attracted just truthfully to many people and sort of mentors, I suppose, in my life, that helping me get better at stripping my ambition. - Yeah, and there's, by the way, there's a time and place for ego death. We need it. We need it, we need it. Have sometimes that sub-die. So we have something to be reborn. But to just have it die and stay dead, no. - No. - No. - Right? So that's, for me, I have a team of people around me and I go to different people for different things. And when I want therapy, I do therapy or stuff but it's always contextualized in a purpose. It's not just like, let me go to semac therapy work just because, I don't need to just go to breath work and cry for no reason. It makes no sense. - Yes. - No shade, it's just, it's a tool belt. What's the purpose? What am I going after? What do I need? What are the best tools for this outcome? Let me reverse engineer that and execute against that. And if I need therapy, great. If you need, you step on the nail, right? With your foot, you need a bandit, right? But you don't just put a bandit on your foot on the Wednesday just because. - Yeah. - Totally. - Is a wound, you put a bandit on, you heal it, move on. - Yeah. Yeah. And athlete in the context of a sport, it doesn't get surgery for the sake of surgery to get surgery so they can recover and get back on the field and play. - That's right. - Oh, you tore your ACL, okay. So let's just be with that forever now. - Just be with your hair. - Be with that ACL tear. Like what does that feel like in your body? To be with it? - Yeah, how old does that part feel? It's like, it feels like fucking, I don't want it anymore. - I'm just pitching an athlete, 26 years later, on the physical therapy. - It feels like, how's that knee feeling? How's it feel to be with that knee now? You haven't gotten back on the field in 26 years. That's now too late. - But you're really good at being with this ACL tear. - But you haven't been with your hair. - You've really learned how to be with the tear. - Yeah, really. - You can name every sensation around the tear, but you're not on the field. - Too long. - So let's take that example 'cause I know we, that's quite a, it's a funny, sort of tongue-in-cheek example. But let's take that example and apply it to life. Like someone who is in the therapeutic setting and they've gotten lost inside the being with. How would you pull them out? - That's someone who knows their ambitions. - I don't pull people. - Okay, but someone who comes to you and is ready to be pushed, who feels as though I like that. Like I'm fucking done being told to just be with this. - Yeah, I would orient them towards their desire. What in you is done and why and what do you want instead? That would be the first question. Because what people will say is, they think that what they want is impossible. And so now they're not arguing with the future, right? I want this but it's not possible. I would say, who cares? What's your desire? Whether it's possible or not, it'll care. What it's true that you have a desire now. What is it? And orient to the truth in you? Not arguing with the future yet. Stop arguing with the future. Be honest with yourself about what you want. - So most people don't own their desires because they've collapsed the desire with the conversation about whether or not it's possible. - And that's based on the past, yeah, correct. - So you'd uncollapse the conversation about whether it's possible or not and ask them to just name their desire first. - Correct. - Because they're like, well, that's not possible. Okay, is it true that you want it? Yeah, okay, stop. What's it feel like to honor that truth? All of a sudden state changes, all kinds of stuff starts to change. - Oh, I can feel that. That's so beautiful. - And then you're like, okay, one step. What would be one thing you can do for that place? - Right. - And you want to start to build winds in that area. - Over time. - Yeah. - And eventually you just give momentum and you're back on the field. - How do you go about setting goals? Like, and I asked that from the perspective of what you were just sharing. Like someone comes and it's like, okay, now what is your desire? How does it feel to want that state change? Now just take one action in pursuit of that wanting. Like the reason I'm asking is like, your goal's specific over the more just a inspired wanting towards something. - Right, so I would say that a few things. One, my goal thing process is complex. I'll try to still down to simple terms. So the first thing I do, independent what my goal is, state management, number one. So what do I got to do to be in the right state? So that could be a food protocol, that could be a movement protocol, that could be one of my favorite things is like hybrid oxygen is an example. Sauna, walking, food that's easy to digest. Like making sure that my energy is in the right place, right? It's super important as a baseline. From that place, I have good oxygenation, good hydration, good energy supply. More liked it have like good prefrontal cortex activity, right? So my brain is turned on. So I can actually visualize and positive anticipate and plan and have an executive function. 'Cause without that, everything else follows apart. So I want to have good state management. From there, usually what I'll do is, I'll have like one session where I sit down and go where I want, right? So it could be a financial goal, it could be a weak goal, it could be whatever the outcome is goal. And then I like to follow Brian Tracy's goal saying process where basically every day I write down what I want in a positive present tense, I don't look at yesterday's goals. So it's not because it's not becoming a to-do list. It kind of becomes like a what's present thing. And then maybe once a month or once every two months, I'll go back and look at what the most common things I wrote down was. And I recenter like am I still on track? Did anything shift or change? And usually like something new or something additional will emerge or something more fundamental will emerge. So for example, if I have a weight goal that I'm currently going towards, I realized I actually have to have like more efficient ways of eating because when I get really excited by the future, I forget to eat and then when I eat, I have things that are hard to digest. So for example, I found a more efficient way to ingest protein. So it wasn't so laborious to digest and stuff like that through like gels and stuff like that. And so like that's a tweak on a goal. So it's like helps me get there faster basically. And so I'm also looking at as I'm executing towards something is what I'm doing efficient or not. What can be improved process wise as I get there as well? Because I can make the process easier. That's also super helpful. And so for example, right now I'm gonna have a weight goal that I'm working towards. And like the majority of my calories come from highly digestible carbohydrates fats and proteins in the form of gels or liquids. And then like meals towards end of the day. And then I'll do like a walk, a sauna and write a sleep. But there's something about that that makes it easier to get what I need. I still have all the fiber and the micronutrients that I need. But like the process of getting most of my macros through like an easy digest liquid version throughout the day for this specific moment makes a lot of sense. And when I figure that out, so many things still, 'cause I was like hard to digest chicken. It's hard to digest all these different things all the time. I noticed my energy would dip for long periods of time with a high protein digestion. But that's towards a larger goal. Yeah, it also sounds like clarifying what your most important value is or like values are in that season. Sounds like you've oriented this weight goal around the desire to maintain high energy levels. Correct. That's right. Yeah, it's also like it's a it's a it's a personal goal. And it's also like how far can I push it? Yeah. And can I do it in a way that doesn't activate my old reactive patterns? 'Cause I used to have a belief background. So my rule is not binging or purging. And so like that's also a big piece of it. And when I want to do that stuff, I you know, get on the vibration plate or do meditation or go for a walk or something like that. Those emotions are still there. But my goal is to also not do it in reaction. Like I previously would. But that would be example of how I set. So the larger goal is a specific like body fat, weight goal, aesthetic goal, whatever it might be. And then there's the small steps and kind of prove those small steps. But I'm not like every day stressing out am I there? Am I there? And I also track over time. I don't track, like my friend Lane Norton would recommend weighing weekly. I get too stressed out by doing that. So I weigh like maybe monthly. Okay. I'm still tracking. Right. So you have to measure on some level. I measure at a cadence that doesn't feel just regulating also even just listening to you. This just sounds so creatively inspiring. Oh cool. Right on. What about it? It just sounds so creatively inspiring to have clarity on the vision and to have the vision not be in contradiction to what you value. Yeah. We're hard at that. So I appreciate that. Yeah. And also like I think it's important to have the bigger vision. But what are the steps I'm doing every day? And routines. Right? Because your hopes and dreams are one thing, but what are your decisions and actions and routines? That's super important also. And so I also try to look at like, if whatever my most important goal is, am I running those routines every day? Right? If not, I'm not going to be making progress sort of my goals. Yeah. Yeah. And most people don't rise the level that goals. They fall to the level of that's down to study. That's what the juice is. Yeah. And your routine or your habits are going to show you. I mean, it would be strange to want something and not be taking action to get it And then we'll be like, why did I not get it? Well, you can do it. - Yeah, yeah. you know, process over, 'cause like most of it is process, twitchy something. It's not vision. - Yeah. Sounds like process and also I know that you're massive and I am as well, Tony Robbins fan, some of like patents. - Oh yeah, everything's patterns, yeah. Pattern deification, as he say, paradigmification, pattern utilization, pattern creation. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Would you say you're in the phase of your life in which you're creating patterns? - I think I'm always doing all three. - Yeah, yeah. I was like, what's this new pattern that I've discovered? You know, there's a new version of it, you know. And also try my best to utilize and then also create. It's hard to create patterns. - It is. - It's worth it when you can, you know. And what I've been working on is outsize pattern creation. Like how can I put in one and get like a hundred back versus put in one and get negative two back? (laughing) - Yeah. - Big time. Final few things for me. This has just been an unbelievable gift. Call me massive again. So thank you. This is a broad question, but I'm really curious. You answer on it. Where do you see the state of the world currently? How do you reflect on that? And where do you see that we're going in the next decade? - Right now I see us really scared about AI and what's going to happen. And rightly so, if you look, if you study street changes in the past, usually there's a major resistance to it and there's fear. And it feels like the end time is like we're in the book of Revelation and some bad stuff's going to happen and the world isn't there and there's near all that stuff. And then what you find is that there's massive abundance and expansion, whether it's going from, you know, into the agricultural revolution or the industrial revolution or the knowledge revolution, there's always more abundance. What I anticipate is more abundance 'cause that's what history's shown us. As it relates to artificial intelligence, what I see is I see a large group of people mostly in the achiever space who are conscious beings who are highly intelligent and they confuse the two. And we think because we have consciousness that we also have intelligence and those are the same thing. So as we hear artificial intelligence, we think it's conscious but it's just intelligence. And so we're going to learn, I think my prediction is that there's a massive difference between intelligence and consciousness. AI can't create anything for the most part. It's not self-aware. Also for it to be self-aware, we have to be able to define what it means to be self-aware and we can't define that. Like what is a subjective experience? There's a hard problem of consciousness. Because it's not self-aware, does that make it more dangerous? If it starts to take on its own sort of, maybe ability to make choices. Well, I mean, I would say on some level, yes, because it's basically scaling the unconscious, right? But what I'm saying is my prediction is that people who are afraid of AI and like losing their jobs or whatever is they are over-identified with their intelligence and not their consciousness. And so I see it as like a global ego death also because all the intelligence will be there. I even saw someone who I have massively respect to, I love tremendously on my team, talk about how I had this puny, puny brain and like the AI is this higher power. I'm like, you have a puny, puny brain that's tapped into infinite consciousness, bro. Like it's literally like infinite consciousness. The computer is not attached to infinite consciousness. So your brain might be small, but it's a vessel for something larger. Yeah, we've forgotten the size of the consciousness that lives inside of it. So I think we're about to have both an abundance revolution. For example, Nvidia is just launching a program where if you have a little bit of a GPU attached to your house, I'm gonna pay you like $22,000 a year, right? So like that's just like amazing, right? So they're talking about UBI and Visual Basic Income. There's Bernie Sanders just announced that he wants to have the AI solder on wealth fund where people benefit from AI and public benefits from and so like that. So I think we're gonna have a financial abundance. But more important, I think we have a spiritual awakening because there will be such an obvious difference between consciousness and intelligence and it will never be conscious. It might stimulate consciousness, but it's just a fancy calculator. It's rocks. It's rocks, it's smart rocks. But it's not conscious rocks. Do you think people will wake up quite soon to the fact that we aren't actually getting more fulfilled as a result of our overreliance on this intelligence? I mean, it's costing us our fulfillment in some ways. Yeah, maybe it's hard because like, with every technological change, I can imagine when the calculator first came out, people are like, "Oh, you have to do the equations by yourself." You know what I mean? It's like, "Wow, do I?" Yeah, I was using the calculator high school. This is just a more advanced version of it. So I think what's happening is a lot of the mundane work that's not aligned with what we need to be programmed to do is being outsourced. So that we can tap into what we're uniquely programmed to do, which there will never be a program for. There will never be an app for, there will never be competition for. There's something that you and I and everyone are uniquely programmed for, to be different. So it's just enabling that to have a more. Yeah, I think it becomes convoluted and challenging when someone begins to outsource their sense of purpose to these platforms, who are almost asking them what asking chat GPT and call it what it thinks based on who they are, they should do with that. Like, my favorite prop recently with AI, 'cause I use it mostly to get my ideas out. But then it's like injecting itself onto it. I'm like, I have a pure idea. It's like, well, I think you should do it. I'm not fucking. You have to do it. I'm trying to get my idea out. Yes. You shut the fuck up. Yeah. I want your thoughts. I'm gonna ask you for your thoughts, right? Yes. So my new prompt is you are helping me communicate to myself. I have my own agency. You cannot tell me how to communicate to myself. Otherwise, you're violating my agency. This is what I think. And then it's kind of like, okay. Okay. 'Cause I'm basically gaslighting it into it. Basically, like, if you disagree with me, your gaslighting me, which is also true, 'cause I'm just trying to get my idea out as I want it. Like, it'd be easier to write the fucking idea out on paper. Or like, you know what I mean? Or like, stop, like, I was trying to research in like the healthcare space about a healthcare company and it was like, I can't do that. This is medical advice. I'm like, this is financial data. It's not medical advice. Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah. What? Yeah. Right? So it's just like crazy. So like, that's what I mean. It's like, that's kind of stupid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And so also, it can become psychophantic in a way in words. How does it agree with you? Yes. I always agree with my clients. Yeah. Yeah. We are already more disconnected than we've ever been. And for people to continue to have their own in moments, dysfunctional opinions reinforced. Correct. Almost makes us start to believe our own delusion. And that just creates more divide. Right? Like, imagine in relationships instead of going to each other, you go to the platforms. And they're both, they're both being reaffirmed in their own perspective. I think I shared this with you last time. One of the craziest things I've seen was a guy who said to chat GPT, I cheated on my wife because she didn't make me dinner after having a 12 hour day. And the response was, that sounds completely valid under the perspective that you were hurt by her actions. Correct. Yeah. Well, by the way, you can say the same thing about therapy. If you and your partner are seeing separate therapists, you will definitely grow apart. Like you can see separate therapists, but you get that therapy together also or coaching or whatever. Like, you have to have shared healing experiences. You can't just go to your corners and be vulnerable over here and then come back regulated. Like, you got to be in the mess with each other. Yeah. And when AI, it's just worse because it's like worse discernment than a person. So I don't go to AI for therapy. I go to AI to really suss out these ideas that I have. Yes. And maybe for research. Yeah. For putting things the way I want it together faster. Yeah. But like strategy? No. What do you think are the consequences of someone using AI to sort of dissect their own internal world? I think there could be pros and cons. I think it would be a safe way to understand yourself if you're scared to talk to somebody. Yes. Right. So there could be some privacy there though, not really because, you know, big business. But in general, like, there could be some safety if it's hard to talk to someone. So there could be some value there. However, I think that in general, it's more anti-social. And like, I don't understand people who have like these relationships with AI's. Like they're marrying their AI's and stuff like that. I personally don't understand it. I don't judge it. I don't understand it. I don't think it's healthy compared to a person. Yeah. But who might have judged? I think that it's just life is better when you have human, human connection. That's really clear in the literature that we need that. Yeah. So I think we've become more isolated, more shut off. And also, like-- I think that's contributing to the, to this sort of modern dilemma that is that it's just easier than a human to human. Like it's just easier to date my AI and to marry my AI because it's less confrontation. Yeah. But like, now you're just in that agreement. Your relationship with someone who doesn't have needs, who does the desires, who is just a-- what are you in a relationship with? Yeah. No, I'm not arguing that point at all. I just think I can understand it purely from the perspective that like we live in this this from the. Part of the modern dysfunction in my eyes of the world is this just pursuit of ease and pursuit of comfort and it's really costing, it will cost a lot of young people, I believe, if they are easily able to outsource their own need to sort of have these self-initiated experiences, such as like going and asking the girl out, such as like developing a relationship that requires that you are confronted, such as having to challenge your own creative brain, such as the ability to learn how to pull something from the ether because you've been disconnected from the world for some time and you allow yourself to be bored. All of these things we, I think, are real spiritual skill sets that we are, could be easily lost with everything. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a lot of value in what you just said, I think it makes a lot of sense, I think that if you look at the first principles of physics, every system is designed to conserve energy, right? So there is energy conservation that AI provides us where why does it have to be that hard, right? So for example, if I have a lot of data, I need to enable us, I can put an AI and get analysis way faster if I do it myself, right? So that maybe is a good thing, right? When I'm going to something like that, because I want, I don't want the challenge of a relationship, that's a completely different issue, it might feel easier to conserve energy in that way, but it's not going to conserve energy for the larger relationship skills that are happiness or joy for fulfillment. And sometimes it has to do short bursts of energy output to get lower energy conservation moving forward. And so I think that it's a context thing, right? So if I can use it to be lazy and data analysis, great, I'm lazy in a relationship. Right? That makes sense. Like, you could, by the way, you could use AI to make the best food plan macro thing. Yeah. I used AI to research like easy, I just, you know, stuff like that. Yeah. But I still got to go lift the weights. Totally. Still got to be an energy deficit. Still sucks. So like, I thought to be hungry. Like all that stuff, right? Totally. So it's like, you can't, you can't fuck with physics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can't fake what is required to actually achieve real intimacy. Correct. Dating your AI is almost like before AI, what people use to use, what do you use porn for? It's like, I can get like this quick sensation of intimacy, but it's a lazy route to work to it. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's a, it's an un, it that route will not produce the outcome. Right? So it's like, you can run, was Tony said, you can run east all you want, but you'll never see a sunset. My health has you ready to use to never see a sunset. Because lots of effort, lots of, you know, good intention, but it's like wrong strategy. Yeah. So if your goal is a fulfilling relationship, that's not it. Now, if there was an AI that has own sense of self and pushed back and was kind of like a human in that way, that'd be kind of cool, you know, but in general, like just being with something that agrees with you. If there was an AI that had that like, I mean, I'd push back there and say like, couldn't we replace the, maybe unspoken connection that happens, the intangible connection that happens between two human halls? No. No. No. That's a high standard, though. Someone who's going to AI, their standard is not the intangible connection between their heart and somebody else's heart. The standard of connection is, I feel a little less lonely, or my rally's being validated, which is important in a moment, but not as a standard for your relationship, you know, you have a higher standard. Yeah. So someone who does feel that sense of loneliness, like in particular, in my world, the world that I traffic in tends to revolve around men and go to this sort of modern male crisis, you know, particularly around dating. If there's a man who's listening to this and he does feel that sense of loneliness, he can't seem to find a relationship. He goes out and feels like he is lost in the sauce, like he just, it's just repeated misery, you know, and this has been a pattern for years. What is your advice to him? Fundamentally, go at something you said earlier, start winning at what matters most to you. I'm in a drawn to men who are pursuing what matters most to them, whether they're 1% started on it, 10% started on it, 99% started on it, however far along, you know, fully expressed, right? There's a attraction that comes when you're doing what you love. It's like, so if you're pursuing a relationship, as the main thing, wrong strategy, you're running easily in your first sunset, wrong strategy, right? That's like, if you're the guy that like, you could be like, probably not super resourced financially, or like the most good looking guy or whatever, but if you're like doing what you love and you're putting out that energy, like women are energetic, you're not as shallow as guys are. Oh, it's such a good, that's an amazing point, like what you just shared and it goes back to even the beginning of this conversation, like not what, doing what you love is a massive piece, not what you think you're supposed to love to be attractive as a man. I'm going to say it like cheeky and kind of like immature. Do what you love so you can do who you love. How's that? Give it a super simple. Yeah, there we go. Yeah. Not do who you love. I'm changing the fire. I'm changing the fire with this podcast. The goal of these conversations is to create intimate dialogue so that you can find what you love so that you can inevitably do what you love and then from that place, be able to do who you love. Exactly. Yeah. That order. Not the other order, you know. And then please, messages, testimonial when we've done who you love. Yeah. Exactly. Amazing. There's a final thing, last and as I was going through your Instagram profile, there's a few thing, like just beautiful words and sentences and phrases on here that I really want to ask you just to elaborate on briefs. Sure. That's cool with you. I just, some of these even made me emotional, particularly this one, the part of you that you're trying to fix is the part that saved your life. Yeah. What does that mean? So we all develop survival patterns that are based in survival. I think I don't know anyone else who said it first. I'm pretty sure I was one of the first of the first person to talk about survival patterns. I'm happy that it's become like a thing people are talking about. Problem is, is that what happens is when we start talking about wounds, diagnosis of some kind, a label for the ADHD or whatever it may be PTSD, it becomes identity, right? For a lot of people, so I don't have ADHD, I am PTSD, I am PTSD, I am PTSD, I am my diagnosis, right? And then we try to fix this thing, right? And it's like, hold on a second, like that pattern developed because of something that needed compensation, right? So you developed, you didn't speak up or you were procrastinating or something or whatever the pattern is, right? You played small, had low standards. And there was a good reason why you developed that pattern, right? When you try to fix it, you don't honor it. You say, wait a minute, you're here for a reason, thank you. Thank you for that job. Thank you for what you did. I appreciate you. I mean, you appreciate those parts of yourself, you let us, to me, unconditional love. Now, you'll put them in the driver's seat, right? But you appreciate them, what they are, it's kind of like, you can love your kids and figure out what they are really good at and then encourage them to be good at that. Or you can pair them with an agenda, right? And so it's like, I don't want to parent my parts of an agenda, I want to say, thank you very much. You crushed it that role. Let's go to something else versus let me fix you, so you don't ever go, so you just kind of go away. And sometimes people will come to me to perfect their patterns, to make them go away. I'm like, no, no, we're here to open this shit up and to love on them, to put them in the passenger seat, to bring them with us into the future. But it's not a prophecy, right? It's a, it's a, it should report. And, and so thank you. Yeah. What you did. Yeah. You saved my life and if I let you drive, you won't, you'll kill my future. That leads me into another one that you shared that is the goal is not to feel better, it's to get better at feeling. Yes. Yeah. So most people, again, it's the same idea, so a lot of us are trying to not feel things as the answer, right? So if I'm feeling something, that's, that means it's wrong versus if I'm in a intimate relationship, I'm going to be triggered. I'm going to be super happy sometimes, if I'm going for a goal, everything we've talked about, right? It's going to affect our emotion that comes with it. And there's only seven emotions, seven emotional pathways, we're going to affect our neuroscience. So, um, probably good to learn how to feel those emotions and know that the price of getting to the next level is going through that emotion, not making it go away. Now, there's lots of ways to metabolize emotion in a better way. You can get still gangly in block. They're like, basically turns off the stress for like three to 18 months. You can do ketamine therapy. You could do the TMS and there's lots of things you can do to help your body be less reactive in general, eat anti-inflammatory foods, be well hydrated, go to amino acid profile, all the different micronutrients, macronutrients, all that stuff, right? Movement. But at the end of the day, there's still going to be emotions that are hard to feel. And so it makes more sense to get better at feeling them than to not feel them, right? We'd be like trying to do hypertrophy muscle. weight training and be like, "Why don't you want to feel gas at the end?" You're not gonna grow up, right? So it's like I might as well get good at feeling like gas. And I realized personally in my own healing journey, I've had to heal from the feet up 'cause I couldn't walk for six months in 2020. Basically the two emotions that I get to feel to get healthy are I get to feel like a little bitch. That's my self-talk. I get to feel like a little bitch when I'm doing certain exercises I can't do 'cause it's like my feet can barely walk or a certain way to learn a walk a different way, act during these muscles and my glutes and never act during it before. I feel like I'm doing a little tiny weights, right? I feel like a little fucking bitch. And I stand up to myself and my sessions and I'm like, "Wait a minute, every time I say that, I'm working on something that's like not strong." - Yeah. - And then my life improves. So I need to feel like a little bitch more. (laughing) I'm gonna stop, stop, stop. - Wow. - Stop. - Not feeling like a little bitch. I need to feel like a little bitch more, right? And then the other one is, my self-talk is, I'm fucking gassed, right? 'Cause when you're at energy, you're just gassed, right? So for me, I'm getting good at being a gassed little bitch. (laughing) That's my self-talk to myself. - That's amazing. - And on the outside, striations are coming in, like all these other things are happening. If you're like, "Nastin, you look amazing, "all these different things," right? I'm like, "I'm a gassed little bitch." (laughing) - I'm a gassed little bitch. And the outside world loves it when I'm a gassed little bitch. This is amazing. - Yes. - You need to get better at being a gassed little bitch who's so afraid. - Yeah, exactly. - Just get better. - Versus not feeling gassed and not challenging my body. - Mm-hmm. - Wow. - 'Cause whenever I go on an imbalance, I feel like a little bitch. - Wow. - 'Cause I'm used to being strong. I'm fucking, I'm really strong in some areas. I'm putting that bench press, put me on certain basic movements, but you put me on like PT, where I'm working like the pinky toe or like medial glute activation, only or something, a little bitch shows up, right? You didn't mean to try to like jump off a box and not like hurt my arches, like a little bitch, right? So like all these little things, right? Or like my trap on my back, like trying to get that to move, right, like it's super hard sometimes. So like all these little things are just like, I feel so incompetent, so like a little bitch basically. - Yeah. - But when I work on that, I push that through, my body comes more into balance. I've never felt more like a gas little bitch when I was, then when I've done palates. - Totally. - There's a little tiny muscles like this. - Oh my gosh. - Exactly. Yeah, they're so humbling. - Humbling. - You think you're strong, you're like, no. - No, no. - Not, you know. - Wow, it's so good. Gas little bitch, amazing. I loved this one. Your nervous system won't let you succeed until it feels safe to fail. - Yep. Yeah, I mean it plays back everything we're saying, right? So what's the likelihood that you're gonna fail? Something, it's 100%. Now, for how long could be a day, a month, a week, a year, right? But we will all experience failure. The launch will work, the content won't convert, like whatever it is. You ask somebody out the same, whatever it is, right? There's gonna be failure. So it's inevitable. Everyone will fail. The great fail. If you're in baseball, we talk about baseball today. If you can hit four out of 10 hits as a hitter, in the major leagues, you're a multi-millionaire all star. You have 40% success rate, 60% failure rate, and you're all star, right? So like the best of the world fail a lot, right? So it's really important to have a really strong relationship with failure. - Yeah. - Also, if you do win, the second you win, it's over, you go back to zero, which feels like failure also, right? So you wanna have a really positive relationship with failure. And I try to see failure as data versus identity. Like I have experienced failure, but I am not a failure. It's gonna be real about that failed. But that is not I, it's just the outcome. It's not me. I'm not a failure, but that launch, that situation, whatever that was a failure. - It failed, yeah. - And it's inevitable, everyone will fail. - Yeah, it's powerful. - Two more. This one just spoke to me. A dysregulated nervous system will make rest feel like failure. Don't fall for it. - Yeah, so sometimes every post has its own context. - Yes. - In this context, it's when I'm trying to achieve something, and I need to rest. Rest can feel like the wrong thing to do, but it's what I need to do. So another, we'll use the example in muscles. So I carry the muscle apart in the gym, right? That is a catabolic process of carrying it down, or proves micro trauma, I eat, I rest, and a ball of processes kick in to make me stronger. So it's the resting phase that where we get stronger. And so if you don't rest, you don't get stronger. And so there's a purpose to rest. And so a lot of people will not rest because they'll go to purpose of it. And so they're just always on musically. And so when you find the purpose for resting, you can give yourself permission to do it. It's not failing in this case. It's actually giving you what you need to create strength for the next level to create reserves, create longevity also. - Yeah, okay. Versus like people who can't turn it off. - Yeah, yeah. - The burnout. - It's gonna be one for me. Can we do too much? - Sure. - 'Cause I just love these. Trying to think your way out of trauma is just another trauma response. - Yeah. - Well, most people will mentalize their pain. And trauma is a brain thing. It's a body thing, it's a senaic thing. It's experiential. No one thought their way into a trauma. No one was like, that thought traumatized me. I've never met one person who traumatized by a thought. A load, a load. - Yes. - Trauma is multi-sensory. Thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, sounds, et cetera, right? So you have to have a multi-sensory experience to get out of that state also. So thinking alone will not get you there. And a lot of people think that by understanding their trauma, that somehow they're making progress. And there might be some internal organization that gets created. Like, okay, that was that. And that was more internally organized. But I haven't had the experience yet of the opposite. So I'm still in it, I just understand it better. Which is definitely maybe better than not understanding it. But it's certainly not enjoyment or joy or fulfillment. So to get out of those experiences, that have the opposite experience, which is called a corrective experience or corrective emotional experience, or a disconferring experience, where you prove the nervous system that's not that way anymore, experientially. - Yeah. Yeah, awareness is not the, awareness is not healing itself. - It's a step, it's a piece. But like, I know lots of people that understand their trauma, but it's just procrastination. They're just more mentalization of it. Which is good to a point. But like, at some point, it's a risk. At some point you gotta drop this. - Makes me think about it. - Yeah, it makes me think about the people who, I don't wanna sort of generalize them, but everyone in this bucket, but people who go and do sort of psilocybin experiences or ayahuasca experiences, and they get the awareness, but don't apply the integration. And then they've done, they're in like, 307 money, but there's an absence of integration. - So first of all, I love psychedelics. A major fair. Now, we're learning that different psychedelics have different purposes and different pathways, which is the whole of their conversation. But what is the work when you do psychedelic work? The work is after the experience. The experience is the thing that unlocks the work, but the actual work is the integration. So if you think that doing ayahuasca is the work, misunderstanding the work. It's producing a non-ordinary state that allows sub-conscious material to come forward in a safer way. That becomes revealed to you that you can then shift in your life through behavior change. The spiritual analogy would be we're 5D printing, right? Over time, a 3D life, right? So it's like, you got this 5D information, it's like spiritual information and our behavior is a 3D printer, basically, right? It's a 3D printing, what we know to be true. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But just the awareness alone is not alone. - Yeah, there's a great quote that says that information alone does not create transformation. - Correct. - Yeah, it creates more potential for it. - Yes. - But information isn't inherently valuable in of itself. - Yeah. - Final one. - Let me find which one it is because I've got 38 in here that I can choose. Oh, I love this one. We'll bring it full circle. 'Cause this is about relationships. When we avoid hard conversations, we're not keeping the peace. We're just keeping the tension. - Correct. - Yeah. - If you don't talk it out, you'll act it out. It's gonna be there, right? So I recently took space from a friend, someone who I care deeply about. And I was shocked because I went to them very advanced mature person. I said, hey, I wanna talk to you about something. Here's what's up for me. And the response was, this is annoying. And I was kind of shocked. I was like, not used to hearing that from that person. And I thought to myself, okay. So we had this thing we call the explicit life that we live. Where we value, where it's like we save the thing, right? So I'm saying the thing. And I said, yeah, the explicit life can be annoying sometimes. And the response was like, hand is not about that, right? - Yeah, I'm like, it's really shocked by that in a way. And it's like, okay, so I have a choice. I can either not say something, or be like, hey, this isn't work for me, right? What I realized in that moment was, what's true for me is that this is in my system. This feeling that I'm feeling is in my system. And if it's annoying for someone to know that, then okay, should I just pretend like it's not there? Because now you're asking me to not feel what I feel. So what am I going to do with someone who's asking me to not feel what I feel, right? The answer is not engage with them to know how I feel and to be around people who can value that. And for whatever reason that person is going through what they're going through in their life, there's certain consequences in situations they're living out, which I understand. But like, it's still present, right? So I value relationships that's like, what's true for you? What's true for me? Is there space for what's true for us here? Right? Because they're whether you want it to be or not. So we might as well talk about it, because otherwise we'll act it out. It'll be past aggressive behavior or shut things down or take things personally or all this like stuff. I want to play at that level. I want to talk things out and I don't need people to change. I just need to understand. Yeah. So like we spend so much time and I don't know what it is, but there seems to be a correlation between people who are physically fit who are like the high rocks people or the like the cross to people, which I admire, but that grouping of people seems to be less available for hard emotional conversations in general. And then it seems like people who are like really good at like the emotional conversations are less available for physical pain. We created a whole, this is the end of the whole organization around this, this blend of, you know, the world that I spent most of my early years trafficking him was this high performance, soccer, inevitably became a pro athlete and realized that there was an absence of depth of emotional connection. And then found myself in a lot of spiritual spaces and men's groups and found that in those spaces there was an absence of real genuine ambition. Yes. And I was like, I want to create something that is the blend of these two because where are my people? And that's the whole fucking business that we were involved. And there are lots of signs for you in this podcast and this podcast will serve lots of people, but hopefully you're paying attention to the signs that are specific for you. I'll let you guys talk about it later. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, how many signs do you need? No. It is a massive need in the context of the world. Yeah. That is an interest, a real interesting dance. It's not 100% sure. There's people who get it both, but in general, I think it's interesting. Well, the people go to both of the ones like myself that have felt like they're looking for that people, I think. It's like, where's the venn diagram, like where do we meet in the middle? Yeah, exactly. And it's like, I think you should be less afraid of feeling pain, less afraid of feeling emotional pain, both are okay and both grow you in different ways. I know people that can like, summit Everest, but not feel rejected, like it's a real strange, you know, like literally, you know. And then vice versa, people who have gotten really good at feeling rejection, but wouldn't not do a hard work out. Correct. Push yourself. Yeah. Exactly. So, I think it's about kind of diving in both. So, it's like, do hard things, include hard conversations, you know. Wow. That's a great, that's a big message to all the athletes who are maybe suppressing their feelings, do hard things, including hard conversations. Yeah. If you are like loving your PRs and you're like really good at being physically fit and you avoid hard conversations, you can do more. And vice versa. If you're like really good at processing hard conversations and holding space and you're not moving, right? You could do more. It's called VO2 max. Look into it. That reminds me of another quote that you shared, something along the lines of like, like someone who avoids difficult conversations, that's not, that's not protecting their peace, that's emotional avoidance. Totally. Yeah. I mean to like, hey I can talk about right now, let's talk about tomorrow or Saturday or whatever, right? But to just not talk about it, what do you do it? You're just, again, you're keeping this like stuff quiet and it lives in your body anyway. It's going to be there, whether you talk about it or not. And then one day you wonder, why do I have all this stress? Why do I have an autoimmune problem? Why is my stomach this? Why is my throat that way? It's like because you're not saying it. Like, yes, there's other reasons you got to get your blood work tests, all that, the functional medicine or whatever, there's all that there too. If you're not saying your truth and you wonder why you have a lump in your throat, I don't know. Let's think about it for a moment. And then is it good? Like, you have good or is it like, you're not saying shit, maybe it's both, right? So it's like, go on the medicine journey, the functional medicine journey, whatever, but also go on the interpersonal journey and notice what are the behaviors that are contributing to these symptoms because if you don't, then eventually your body will get your attention somehow. And it usually will be to the thing you value most. Right? So for me, it got my attention to, I couldn't walk. That's all I had to do for seminars, it's fucking walk, paste around the seminars and talk. I can't walk, right? So it's like, I have to pay attention, right? I didn't want to pay attention. Yeah. It all comes to us in different ways. And I had to learn that like, wow, that means I'm abandoning myself and like, I'm not forever. Okay. So that's my, I need to pay attention to that. Yeah. And that means I have to speak up. If there's any different things and all these different, you know, things. So it's like, I get my career back, moment of integrity with myself versus like hiding to make other people happy, or to wear a plane to a shop, a pattern or whatever. So like, if it lives in you, it's better to metabolize it through your consciousness and the consciousness of a relationship than to hold it in for so many reasons. Yeah. Some of my mentors told me once that the voice of God will often begin as a whisper and end as a screen. Yeah. And your role is not to wait for the screen, but to get better at hearing the whisper. Correct. Yeah. And because the screen will happen. Say that again. The screen will happen. Yeah. Yeah. I call that being a one sign disciple. Hey. One sign disciple. What does that mean? Like, how many signs do you need? Signs. Sign your sign. Like, I love 11, 18 times. You know, 18 times, you know, whatever, you know. Yeah. How many butterflies do you need to see? One yellow butterfly. Just one. Yeah. That's it. How many signs do you need? Yeah. I love that. Yeah. If you come in a one sign disciple. Like, if you think about heaven for a moment, right? There's like, there's, I think about heaven. There's intuition department, which is like, yes. No. It's simple. Yeah. Go left or right. Right. Whatever. Then there's like the sign department. And I hypothesize the ratio of intuition to sign is 20 million to one. Like, if, if there's a math in heaven, they're like, okay, so on average, the average human sign compliance is 20 million signs to one client. And because there's signs you see, but there's why signs you don't see. Also. How many 11, 11, 11s do you need to see? How many? It's like sending photos. Today, I saw 11, 11, 333, 444. Yeah, but what did you do about it? Yeah, exactly. So it's like, I want one sign. That's it. One sign. It's enough. Got it. Oh, one sign. It's like having a break. You know. Fucking happy. Oh, I did my head. I imagine like all the angels are like, like, one angel's like, go left, right? And then everyone else is like, signs left. It's right. And then everyone's watching. And they're like, maybe I should go left. And they bailed or something. Everyone's like, all heavens celebrates. Oh, they're going left, right? Oh, my God. And then they're like, what's the full moon? And they do that. And they're like, fuck. Nobody told me it's mercury retrograde. Fuck. You know. Fuck. And all of heaven is like, fuck, we make 10 more than a million more signs now. All right. Mercury retrograde. All of heaven. All of heaven. Mercury retrograde. Fuck. I can't go yet. I feel like literally like when someone is obedient to their intuition, all of heaven is like, Oh, my God. We got one, guys. We got a live one. We got one. And for how long? Five minutes, maybe. She did it for seven minutes. You guys amazing. Last time was two seconds. It was amazing, right? We'll see you again nine months from now. Until then, sign department over to you. Oh, my God. I'm just picturing. It's like the image I got was you ever seen inside out. Of course. Yeah. Like all the emotions and that's heaven. Oh, my God. It's happening. For what? Mercury is in metric. For what? So for what? Totally. Five. Fucking so funny. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, it's just. So for me, it says one sign of cycle. You know. That's that is an amazing, amazing sort of phrase. I'm going to keep with me. It's a one sign of cycle. Yeah. One sign is enough. Yeah, one sign is enough. Yeah. Mazda, my final question for you. And this is more of a personal one that I'm just so really curious about because you didn't have to do this again. And you did. And you know, I was really, I love the first conversation we had and it was super unfortunate that the hard drives got corrupted and you were an unbelievably busy man. You have just an abundance of things happening in your life. I want to know why, why did you choose to come back? Well, when I got the message when you originally, I thought, yeah, I'll do that. And then it was because it was so much fun. And then it's been crazy. And then we followed up again. I have to do this. There was a there was like a knowing. So it was just a desire like it felt like the right thing to do. It felt like super fun. And you know, whatever that conversation was like, it's gone. Yeah, whatever happened here is supposed to happen. And so it just felt like it felt like a yes, one-time disciple. Yeah. One-time disciple. This is a two-time disciple because there was a lot happening. Yeah. Some grateful for that. But yeah. Yeah, that's why. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. I think for people who don't want one-sign disciples, maybe I just need to like keep paying them. Yeah. Until they 20 million times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the follow-up is important. Like, I don't-- I'm not asking why. I just feel it. I go. Yeah. Well, for me to you, I'm so glad that you are a one-sign disciple and that this felt like a sign to come back because just the potency and the energy and your commitment to being of service and your depth of knowledge and a variety of subjects and also just beyond the wisdom, the size of your heart is just so evident to me. So just for me to you, thank you so much for being here. As we begin the closest out, and for the people listening that have loved this, that want you to a tired of the people in their life that are helping them get better at losing and want to learn how to win, like where can people find you and what and what. I just had a lasting kit on everything, or msqit.com, so I'm in there, Instagram, TikTok, website, wherever. Amazing. I'm there as a books, courses, all kinds of different things, experiences, all kinds of coaching, all stuff, stuff. That's where I find me. It's easy. Yeah. Appreciate that. I'm asking thank you so much. Yeah, if I pleasure. Cheers.