008 Throwing and punching

Hello and welcome to the High Performance Physiology Podcast. I'm Chris Beardley. I'm here with my co-host, Rob Mauseri. And we're going to talk about throwing today, but obviously because throwing is a casual that covers pretty much any kind of fast rotation of a body movement. And we're also going to be talking about punching because that's Rob's kind of speciality when it comes to this kind of sort of activity. So quick introduction to throwing and of course punching. Essentially throwing is one of those movements that depends quite heavily on the proximity of the sequence, like vertical jumping, like sprinting and that kind of thing. And interestingly though, and kind of one differentiating factor that throwing has from other kind of movements is that it really has two proximity of the sequences. We cannot have the initial sequence which starts at the hip and goes down into the ground, then you get a rebound effect that comes up through the body. And then you have that kind of torso rotation obviously of shoulder movement and then throwing action itself. So essentially we've got something that really divides itself relatively easily into two sections. We've got the section that involves that looks actually quite similar to a vertical jump or a single leg vertical jump. And then the section that is much more familiar to us as a throwing action, which is the rotation of the torso and the movement to the shoulder and the arm. Now as a result you can kind of sort of split training for throwing into those two kind of sections. You can think about it from a vertical jumping point of view or just the lower body section. And you can think about it from the upper body point of view, which is the rotation and the shoulder movement. Now the set that sort of the first section when we're thinking about the lower body, the vertical jump analog. Essentially, when we looked at vertical jumping last week, we talked about how the starting biomechanical kind of determinant of vertical jump height was the impulse, the vertical impulse relative to body weight. Essentially we're trying to create the biggest impulse to get us off the ground and we need to have a lighter body weight in order to maximize that jump height. Now the interesting thing about throwing and of course other similar movements like striking things and punching is that you actually want to stay on the ground. You don't want that lower body movement to launch you into the air. You actually want to stay on the ground. And this is one of those areas that comes out a lot when you start looking at things like racket sports and golf golf, especially because you're obviously not trying to move around the court. You're actually standing pretty still when you're taking your shots. And the interesting thing about that is that you tend to see that baseball is another great example actually. You tend to see that the heavier players, the heavier athletes have this advantage when they're in those situations. And it's because they're able to stay on the ground more easily and produce higher forces because the obviously the body weight is sufficient to keep them on the ground for a higher impulse that they're generating. So you basically think of the first part of a throwing action very is very similar to that of a vertical jump except with this critical differences that you want to stay on the ground. You don't actually want to launch yourself into the air. And that's one of the reasons why heavier athletes are always going to have that advantage when it comes to throwing, you know, golf, any kind of activity like a baseball punching those kind of things. The second half and okay, so in terms of training for that, we can obviously just kind of bring the information we talked about last time in terms of vertical jumping. We can really just bring pretty much all of that into the throwing discussion except we're going to be training with a more force oriented kind of sort of perspective because we are trying to be slightly slower because we don't want to end up in the air. And of course, you know, it isn't one of it isn't quite as fast as it would be as it would be for the vertical jumping situation in terms of the upper body. Obviously we've got that rotation of the torso and then obviously we've got the shoulder and the arm movements. And in terms of proximal to this sequence, we're going to be thinking to ourselves, okay, so hip and then so in terms of the upper body sequence, we're going to start with the hip, which is the connecting piece. We're going to have the torso rotation. So our strength work is going to be more around the hip and the rotation of the torso. And then pretty much anything after that is largely going to be more kind of the speed under the spectrum. So this is kind of where we start to see why a lot of strength training programs that are supposed to support throwing activities or punching activities aren't necessarily going to work as well as people think they are if they're based around things like the bench press because ultimately those are going to be providing a lot of strength development. Where we don't actually need it, we need the strength development to the hip and the torso rotation, not so much the shoulder and the arm. And I've actually lost track of the number of times I've talked to coaches and both sports and strength coaches are working in high level sports with people like baseball pitches and other athletes that are throwing and they've said they just don't even bother with bench pressing at this point because the athlete is generating all of the kind of energy from the lower body in the torso rotation. And what's happening at the shoulder and the arm is literally just kind of that kind of communication of that energy down the chain to the point where they're actually able to release the object that they're throwing. Really, for me, throwing is completely unlocked by the appreciation of the proximal to this sequence. Everything else we kind of talked about last week when we talked about vertical jumping because that's kind of the first half of the movement is just pretty much identical. Obviously, there's differences depending on the way in which the throw is performed and you might end up with either two legs or one leg on the ground, it doesn't really matter. Point is it's going to pretty much follow the same kind of sort of rules as we described last time with the only difference being we actually want to stay on the ground. And the upper body part is the interesting mix where that torso rotation or we have the hip followed by the torso rotation and then followed by the shoulder and the arm movement that we're very familiar with when we're looking at throw. So that's basically all we need to do to cover the kind of basics of throwing movement. So with that said, Rob, can you talk us through some throwing out? Well, some strength training programs that you're using at the moment, both for athletes that are needing to be able to throw and also athletes that are needing to be able to develop punching power. Yeah, for sure Chris. So I mean, like Chris said, we'll probably stick more to punching for this one because that's more my area of expertise, brings some other guys on in the future to talk about throwing a bit more in depth. Yeah, so one of the things I've found when I'm writing programs for improving punching power is a lot of guys are going to look at the program on paper and think especially for the lower body aspect that it's similar to maybe a bodybuilding program, except the sets and reps might be a little different than they're used to. That's because like Chris was just saying, for the hip, you know, similar to vertical jump work, the hip work is going to be very heavy, very strength focused. So generally there, you know, depending on equipment, focusing a lot on, you say it all the time, the hip thrust is a great one, very minimal muscle damage, not really too fatiguing. If you load it up nice and heavy, if people don't have access to that, or you know, just for some reason can't do it, I do like, you know, maybe a high handle, drop or deadlift, back squats, different ranges, you know, maybe four inch squat or maybe some kind of like partial range box squats, something like that as well. For the knee, you know, work around the knee a lot of times using things like leg presses and other machines. I think a lot of guys typically are surprised by that, you know, real like act squats, real like leg presses, pendulums, those kinds of things if you guys have access. They kind of look at those and think that it's, you know, again, more of like a bodybuilding thing, but if you're looking at just needing to be very force dominant with the lower body, you know, you can get that, whether it's a barbell, whether it's a machine, it doesn't have to look quote unquote functional. I think a lot of fighters, especially try to look at things that kind of look like the action and obviously we know doesn't need to be that way at all and it probably shouldn't be that way. So really like a hot squat and a leg press versus a back squat, you don't have to worry about the coordination demands of the squat, someone skill level or anything like that. You can just put them in a machine and load them up nice and heavy and train exactly the way you need to train without worrying about making them like a great squatter. Totally. I mean, that's such a, that's such a great point. I mean, just this is emphasizing the exact difference that we see between the vertical jump and the throwing motion, which is that we can think of that first half of the movement as being more force dominant and therefore unlike the vertical jump, where you kind of thinking, oh well, you know, I need to think more force dominant to the hip and maybe the knee is more balanced between strength and speed. Actually, for throwing, you kind of thinking, well, actually the whole thing is pretty much force dominant really, so you can kind of lean more and obviously punching as well, you can lean more into that sort of strength idea, which is cool. You know that you've got these kind of sort of more conventional, you know, sort of hip and knee balanced. The strength of any exercises with track bar dead lifts and the hacks across and that kind of thing. And also, I mean, and then the second thing that I think was was pretty interesting about what you said there was just the choice of exercise selection, because you know, as you say from a bodybuilding or strength point of view. If, if, if we're not trying to get better at squatting, then largely speaking, hacks, what like press, you know, kind of track bar deadlift, they're all kind of in that same zone. They're all kind of doing the same kind of thing, you know, and you know, especially when you've got people who are using their shoulders a lot for throwing or punching. I'm not sure back squat is necessary. So I really need. Okay, of course there's going to be some people out there who say, oh, no, no, never had any problems with with shoulders doing back squat. I'm like, okay, cool. I did. Yeah, I was pretty miserable with my shoulders. I was pretty miserable with my shoulders and I was back squatting a lot. You know, and I think again, it depends on the individual depends on their mobility. And you might say, oh, well, throwers never have any problems with shoulder mobility. Okay, fine. I don't know. I mean, that's just not my area. But I think it's a really important point that, you know, it's like if you have those options available to which we do in the context of the model we're describing, why not make use of them. And then you don't necessarily run into those problems with the people who experience those problems. That's that's really cool. And that's just two things straight away jumping out to the programs that you describe. Can you can you kind of give us just again. I ask you this all the time and you've answered the same way every time. But can you give us a little bit more around, you know, sets reps, reps and reserve those kind of ideas just so that people know them who haven't maybe heard you say that before. Yeah, for sure. And when it comes to stuff, depending on the exercise, so I think if it's something like a hip thrust, you know, contracted position focus, not very damaging stuff with that, I may program those for a few sets, you know, two to three, usually two to three, honestly. Because you you're not going to get too fatigued from those. It's not going to create a lot of post workout fatigue. And then you use lower reps with it, you know, anywhere from like three to maybe six, because I'm generally going for a really high output on those. Really not creating a ton of muscle damage or anything like that. So I like to program those for a few sets, other things, you know, depending on if I'm using like a hot squat or maybe a leg press that has a little less realm, something like that. And generally, you know, one to two sets, especially when I'm hitting a bit more like peak tension and kind of a stretch position with a hot squat or something like that. And then, you know, lower reps, low to moderate on those generally. So four to eight is usually a good range, both, both of those, whether it's the hip stuff or the knee stuff, a few reps in reserve. We talked on the other podcasts about mitigating the effects of type shifting and all these things. So I'm not taking guys to failure. And I think a lot of guys and fighters who are trying to maybe knocks out a weight class or move up weight class and to help their punching power and things like that, or just, you know, because they're not appropriately sized. They think they need to do this hypertrophy work to failure, you know, even sometimes past failure, stuff like that. And it's just not necessary. You know, you leave a few reps in reserve, still getting a few gets stimulating reps per set. And you're going to grow or, you know, the very least probably maintain all your muscle size in these kinds of programs. So yeah, just few sets, a little bit more of the contracted position focused stuff. And then leaving a couple reps in the tank all the time. Like, you don't need to be pushing yourself to and past failure, because any sessions for the sport, you know, through the week are going to be bad. If you're doing multiple strength sessions, they're not going to be as good and professional be as good. So really just being being careful with that. And again, just picking up on what you said there in terms of number of sessions per week and being aware of the sports training sessions as well. I'm guessing you're probably kind of in the same zone as we've talked about before. You're programming two sessions a week most of the time. If people have capacity and they really need the extra strength work, you can push it to three, but generally speaking, that's kind of the ballpark I'm guessing. Yeah, and I mean, especially flight training is super, super demanding. I mean, it's been a been a long time since I had any of my amateur more type fights. But, you know, still coaching a lot. My brother was, you know, fighting pro for a very, very long time at the highest level. And those training sessions are just, you know, they're growing because you really have to be in just incredible shape, cardio wise and just kind of mental toughness, some of that as well. So if you're doing these sessions, they're usually pretty long. There's a lot of stuff you had to do in them. You just don't have the time and the recovery capacity for more than a couple or maybe three good strength sessions a week. You're just going to be tanked. Sure. No, that makes total sense. So that was basically the kind of the, if we divide throwing into these two separate halves, that was the lower body kind of half now obviously the hips connect into the upper body. So we're kind of starting our torso movement with what's happening at the hip. But moving into that, what are you programming at the moment? Let me back up briefly because let me just intro this before we start talking about this. What I want to say what we both want to say, actually, I think we've had discussions about this. What we both want to say is want to thank people who've been sending us videos or there. Yeah, this has been fantastic. We're really happy about this. Please continue to do this, sending us videos of their kind of invented exercises or the exercise they've developed in variations of exercises for torso rotation. And when we say that when describing the fact that we want a forced dominant torso rotation exercise most of the traditional way or the traditional way in which the torso has been trained in S and C is is kind of power based. It's kind of medicine ball slams. It's rotational stuff. You get a little bit of cable work occasionally, but most of it is incredibly unstable. So, you know, we want to thank people who have been sending us their suggestions for how we could train the torso in a more sort of forced dominant way. You know, in terms of what you're doing at the moment, Rob, walk us through what you know the strength training stuff would look like, you know, just the strength training side of things, not the kind of the speed under this patient, but just the strength training stuff for the kind of torso rotation. And if you're doing anything for the shoulder, what are you doing there as well? Yeah, for sure. For the trunk rotation stuff, like we said, a lot of people have sent a lot of get set ups. One of the ones that I really like that I started using. I'd seen from a guy not too long ago, and it was basically if you're doing a cable trunk rotation. Imagine instead of standing up straight, you just bend over. So you're roughly parallel to the four cables are at the side of you already. Then you're going to get a good amount more stability. You'll notice the load that you can use in the rotation is quite a bit larger. And then from there you can add at least if you have one, maybe like a dip pole or some extra added weight on there to keep you more stable down to the ground. And then you'll notice you can use a ton of weight with the cable rotation works out really nice. So just just kind of asking for clarification on this so that people can visualize it. Obviously when we're when we're normally doing a rotation like size, the cable machine might be off to one side of us. And we're kind of twisting our torso in that kind of transverse plane rotating to move the and obviously the cable is coming from from that side of us. If we now kind of sort of facing the ground because we're bending forwards and the waist, then obviously now the rotation obviously from our torso perspective is exactly the same. But that, you know, from the perspective of what the cable is doing, that's slightly different. Does that change how you're setting the cable station up? Yeah, I mean, usually I'll change the height of the cable to maximum. It's just more in line with ground. So all you're doing is just moving the cable down. So instead of being like kind of shoulder height. Now you're obviously because you're bending at the waist. It's more like approximately waist height or is it lower than that? Yeah, usually, usually around waist height. Okay, cool. Now that's helpful. I think it's for the people to be able to visualize because we haven't got the, you know, the DS2 system. But yeah, it's honestly, it's a good, easy setup. And even without that, that added stability from the belt compared to just the standing rotation. You know, world's better. The standing rotation you see all the time, standing and even sitting. I've seen. And really no matter what you do there, you can stagger your stance, you can bend your knees, you can sink in a little bit. It's just very, very unstable. And you don't want to be using much weight at all. So the better I quite like variation that we got sent where there was a guy who was in a split kneeling stand. Yeah, what he got, he got a, yeah, he got a, I think it was a jump block next to him. And he was using that to create a lot of stability. You could see that as he, as he was moving, he was pushing into the block to keep himself in that stable state. And I think that that kind of thing is really inventive. So that's really cool when we see those things because it's starting to get to because obviously you could, you could argue this like what we need is a machine that will do all of these things. Yeah, fantastic. Maybe in three years time, maybe a three years time someone will build something like that based on listening to these podcasts. If I rant about it enough, maybe someone will eventually build it. But in the meantime, somebody's got to kind of have, you know, a way of making this happen. And I think, you know, your, your kind of variation you described there, the kneeling variation that we've just mentioned. Those are really cool because they're giving people actionable ways they can literally right now get a cable stack, get a setup and actually start to play around with this stuff. And I think, you know, ultimately throwing is just another proximal to this sequence movement. And as a result, we need that force much more proximally training force production more distantly like people have been thinking about it from, you know, you know, historically just doesn't make any sense. Anyway, so, you know, kind of carry on. Sorry, I interrupted you talk about, you know, how your programming is these rotational exercise. You know, a keyboard being a dead horse here, but again, same thing kind of sets and reps wise, it's usually two to three sets. There are only too many more load of modern reps. I'm generally young, you know, more moderate. I haven't played around with like triples and things like that. I'm going to be quite difficult just at the moment until we can get until we can get a really stable setup. Yeah, you know, but I'm really like five to eight range is usually I find pretty good with those. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. So again, you know, don't get to go to failure or anything, nothing like that. And I don't, I don't know if I'd suggest taking a trunk rotation quite to failure. Anyway, it's probably not going to be the most comfortable thing. A couple reps and reserve moderate reps. But I've gotten to quite like those been programming those with one of my boxing guys and then my brother and I'll be adding quite a bit of those into some of the group training programs we run. That would be really good working on some cool stuff for this upcoming year for the guys. But yeah, I know you mentioned it. But I think people really do have the idea that especially for punching power, the speed is so important. But when you look at that force aspect, you know, you compare it to like golf and tennis and that. The trunk rotation or force, you know, guys who are punching, if you measure the force velocity profile and they have a much higher level of force, even than golf and tennis and that. And you know, it's just below things like kayaking and rolling where there's a lot of resistance. So they do, they do produce a ton of force. Yeah, they move fast so that the gradient of the profiles, maybe a little more shallow, but the overall force is super high. So you really just got to focus on that instead of just kind of hook and literally hugging things at a wall. Oh, yeah, we've got to create that kinetic energy somewhere. And I think, you know, basically what we're trying to describe here is that throwing and punching is about creating kinetic energy with the lower body. I mean, obviously transmitting that through the hips into the torso, adding more kinetic energy with the hips and the torso to extend that we can. I mean, obviously the rest of the body is kind of moving more into that velocity into the spectrum. So that's kind of the strength of the lower body strength for the upper body. Obviously, you know, because of your expertise in punching, you have also not only got the S and C side of this, but you're also aware of how that kind of bridges into, you know, kind of the sports specific more sports specific velocity type training to talk us a little bit about that. Yes, so the stuff you can do kind of like in the weight room is really, I mean, I keep it super, super simple. It's more, you know, just like your standard kind of Med Ball throws. I do like, you know, kind of skipping into throws of them doing throws of the wall stuff like that, just to get more velocity, you know, you take a longer stride, take a skip into it, you get a lot more speed out of that. I always don't be able to be careful of the weight that they're using if they're doing like, you know, lying Med Ball on stuff like that, because you'll notice really, really fast. If you go from like 5% of your bench weight up to even, you know, 10% or so, the slow down is is absolutely massive. So just this is a very heavy weight. Absolutely. This is one of those things that really, really grinds my gears because it's like, I think strength coaches are almost programmed to just try and add a load to anything that moves. Just like, just like understand that we're dealing with opposite ends of the spectrum on the force velocity profile here, and that kind of adding load is just taking you away from the. If anything, it's like, if anything, we want to actually do the opposite, you know, like we were talking about last week. If you somehow want to assist in, you know, or like in terms of, you know, when, when people are trying to throw implements or that, you know, it's like, can you find a way to make it lighter than the thing that you would normally. So can you throw a tennis ball instead of a, you know, a baseball or something like that? I'm not the person, I'm not the right person to come up with this. This is why, you know, I'm not the guy who's inventing new exercises for people to do. I'm just trying to explain how the physiology and biomechanics works and that there will be some kind of person with the more engineering type mindset who will come up with some really cool solutions. It's like great, fantastic. And we'll help, you know, popularize those if we can. But yeah, it's just like in terms of thinking about our force velocity spectrum. Can we make it easier rather than harder to try and move faster at that end of the spectrum? So yeah, I mean, like, I think there's definitely a role for medicine balls. But ultimately, I think we've just got to be aware that we're trying to push the velocity of the movement rather than the force production. And is this horrible temptation in everything that we do is like, can we add a load? And that's not a point. No, you don't need a 50% bonus for that. But in terms of the more sports specifically, so you talked me through before we jumped to the podcast today, you were talking about a few kind of drills that the guys are doing with the heavy bag. Yeah, I mean, so a lot of people, and you see this ever and ever, they want to improve their punching power. And they want to doing really, really do feel like sports specific drills, they know they're punching with weights. They're, you know, maybe punching with weight and sometimes releasing it, which is almost slightly less terrible. And really, if you look at the way the way that a lot of the best punchers train, kickers, stuff like that, they're in the gym practicing their pad work through bag work. We're just like single hard shots or maybe a really crisp combination where it's two punches, you know, maybe three always practicing as hard as they can as fast as they can and taking like, you know, a good bit between the reset. They're not kind of throwing endless shots back to back or tons of combinations all in a row. If the goal was training to hit hard, you know, sometimes they'll be doing it for cardio, you know, that's fine if it's at the end of a session. But if you're actually training it like early in a workout, try to improve your speed and that will be punching and try to hit harder. Just keep everything literally as hard as possible every single shot, you know, you're just trying to like crush the pads, crush the bag, you want someone's holding pads or mitts for you. You just want to hit that as hard as you can and make sure that they're feeling it through the myth. You don't want to be doing just kind of throwing things, you know, will and only and just, you know, weapon punches and weapon kicks over and over. Just be very careful with that. Don't fall into apple thinking like you're going to get better punching by improving how tired you do or don't get while you're punching. You can do that with other things. That's not going to help your punch or speed at all. So again, less is more and the execution is critical. And as you're saying, we're putting it actually at the beginning of a workout rather than later on. And that's a really interesting point, I think, because often when you kind of looking at the way people are structuring strength training programs, especially in this kind of context, they might be like, Oh, I've got to get all my strength training stuff in. And then I'll throw some punches on at the end. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, if your purpose, if your purpose was to actually create a speed stimulus, you know, you actually wanted the beginning because everything else is just going to kind of obliterate the ability to kind of create those options that are going to help you, you know, produce improvements in speed related adaptions, you know, pretty much all of what we're saying here is directly applicable to, you know, kind of a lot of the sort of racket based activities or, you know, baseball hitting golf striking, whatever it might be throwing, pitching, anything like that, all of those activities are fundamentally going to work in exactly the same template. Just going to have slight differences in terms of the specific speed movement perhaps, but larger speaking, the lower body strength training, the torso rotation, the hip work, absolutely identical in all of those situations, I think, like you are saying at the beginning, you know, people like to really analyze the biomechanics of the movement that they're really interested in, like, you know, how can I create a movement that replicates the movement. I mean, you know, you're already doing the movement in your sport, so it's going to give you kind of most of that already, you know, what we're adding really is the ability of the core of the body, perhaps the torso rotation, and in the case of throwing obviously got the knee as well, because we're more forced on it in the lower body, to add that kinetic energy that then allows you to express the really high velocities at the shoulder to create either throwing all the striking or, you know, the punching, whatever activity is that we're generating. I think that's, that's hopefully been a really useful introduction to this, this kind of throwing up a body rotational movement. I don't think we talked about this before we jump to the podcast, but have you seen anything really silly that people are doing at the moment that, you know, we can, we can kind of describe to people in the audience. When it comes to combat sports, I have an infinite supply and a good buddy of mine, Adam and I, we have been back and forth on these things all week, actually. So a good shout out to Adam Dutti, who is an awesome coach. You guys should also check out on Instagram, but anyway, we're, we're looking at things the other day. And one of the ones we saw was end range isometrics for improving punching power. So if anyone's seen this, definitely don't do it. I will describe it here in a second. So basically you stand in the position that the end of the punch would be. So every now and you throw in a straight right hand, your arm is extended, you turn into it, whatever. And then from there, the guy had his athletes just pushing into a pad with that right hand as hard as they could. Same thing with the left arm, he had someone mimicking throwing like a left hook and driving their left hand into the pad as hard as they could and just a long isometric. I don't know why anyone would ever think that that was going to increase your force production in a punch and especially, you know, make you faster or anything like that. And he had a bunch of go crazy for why it would work, but it's definitely not going to work. You don't need to be doing some kind of I so at the end range of a punch. Because you need to be working out producing force, you know, earlier in. Pro proximity. Yeah, you literally the opposite end of the spectrum there. The poor opposite end. Yeah, it's so silly. That was that might have been the most egregious one I had seen this week. Quite a few others actually. I had seen people talking about core training for combat sports for punching in that and they mentioned actually that's a really good point. If we could do one thing with this podcast series that we do, if we could do one thing, if we could convert people to thinking instead of thinking about core to thinking about torso rotation. I think that would be an amazing contribution to the S&C community, if we could get people to think about you're not thinking about this, this kind of core stability or, you know, anti rotation, you know, anti rotation. I actually think about how do I produce force to create a rotational movement? Because actually there's, you know, kind of a rotational component in many many activities that we do. So, you know, and the proximal digital sequence is the skeleton key to understand why it's so important because it allows us to create that kinetic energy that goes down. So I just think as you were describing that, I was thinking if we could literally just get people to think about, you know, using torso as a rotational kind of action rather than just as a weird kind of this magical kind of stability, anti rotation, nonsense that people like to talk about. The core does a lot of things that doesn't just, you know, stand there rigid in especially in athletic moments. So yeah, another one I've seen in terms of core training, well, a couple things, all from the same guy who, of course, we don't name names. The idea that for some reason, farmers carries were an incredibly effective co-workers has for fighters. And the reasoning was just that they work the whole body, you know, not really very good reasoning and obviously you're trying to improve punching power, punching speed, things like that. That's not going to do anything for you. And that was the context that was mentioned. You know, if you're doing a farmer's carry, I don't know, I can't have a thing against farmers carries for the most part because they're an exercise that is doing a million things at once. And therefore, nothing very well. Yeah, you just train a billion muscles, none of them really get any high levels of recruitment or growth or, you know, the adaptations that are going to be strengthened that. So you just kind of walk around with heavy weights to get tired. So if you're, if you're training for combat sports and that, I probably would suggest other things. Another one on the same lines was it wasn't because it works the whole body, but it was training your core to again, you just mentioned resist rotation. People hadn't, you know, guys doing photos doing pull off presses half kneeling. So not even with the knee on the ground. And really, if you're doing like, then it was not familiar with a pull off press. You have a cable that's lined up at the side of you, you press the cable out and you just hold it there. So you resist the rotation back and towards the cable stack. Again, just like we mentioned with the standing cable rotations, we're actually rotating to exercise where you can use very much load at all. If you do half kneeling where you're for some reason kneeling down, but the back knee is not even on the ground. It's just inherently even less stable. So for some reason, I've gotten the idea that like, with these incredibly unstable movements that you have to resist that rotation, it's going to really effectively train your core. It's just a very light loaded movement that's not doing very much at all. Exactly. Exactly. I'm a big critic of that exercise. I really don't like it at all. I think if we could just get rid of that and do proper torso rotations. No, it would be million times better. Yeah, I really, really effective. I will not use that. I mean, I haven't programmed one in probably eight, ten years. And I would not try to thank you some others because there was, there was a few I sent you. There was quite another one. So I had someone mentioning for, and I think we mentioned this in the Center to podcast actually, but I'm mentioning that for fighters to improve platos and strength and hypertrophy and improve their power and all these things they should use. And the idea was that it would give you increases in recruitment. I mean, which it does if it's super maximal, but you can get that plenty of other ways and arts of fatiguing. And it would give you more muscle size than regular training wood, which is not the case for sure. And it's also going to leave you incredibly fatigued for your sports training. It was really get out of a very specific reason to use these centrips for combat sports for punching power, things like that. I don't really see any give reason if you're worried about increasing murder and recruitment stuff like that to give you access to faster muscle fibers, those kinds of things way better off using just heavy strength training for muscles that it's relevant. And you know, really fast movement training or some of those, you know, whatever it may be stuff that's not going to leave you just crushed for the sessions. You did, you know, for some reasons, from kind of essential training for the lower body. You know, you're just going to be tanked for a whole week if it's super heavy and you do too much of it. So I don't, I don't really see any reason for that for punching power at all. Yeah, I think essentially training would be pretty low on my list of things to consider for either vertical jumping or throwing. I think in certain situations, if you have a particular throwing motion that has a really kind of pronounced wind up, you can kind of start to maybe play around with it a little bit for some of you kind of more interesting cases. But I wouldn't be starting there. It wouldn't be like, I wouldn't be building my program around. I think what you described today with a kind of lower body sort of classic heavy strength training, you know, some torso rotation stuff. I think that is going to be 90% of what actually helps any of these movements. I think as I say, there might be some specific situations where a little bit of target to decent training could be interesting, but it's absolutely not going to be where I start. No, as you said, I know I've seen it with baseball pitchers and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. Where you've got this huge wind up kind of situation, but you know, for punch, you don't have that. You know, you'd be telegraphing kind of so horrendously that people would just be able to walk out of the way, you know. And I've seen, I've seen these centered training for the other body as well. And in that case, I mean, you're just making things slow, slow, slow. There's no reason at all. Yeah, I mean, again, people think gets they buy into a couple of the minor physiological aspects of eccentric training where they think that adding psychimos and series is going to make them, you know, kind of have a higher muscle fire, shortening velocity. And that's really debatable, actually, and we can talk about that another time in more detail. Realistically, when you're adding psychimos and series and you're also adding customers, which is what eccentric training does. You're not really getting the benefits that you think you're getting from adding from a fire, but lost your shortening point of view, you're not really getting those benefits as effectively as you think they are. And also, you're obviously tending to get fiber types, you have to be able to use a lot of calcium ion accumulation. And so ultimately, it just doesn't really work the way people think it works. And that even the motor unit of group inside of things is kind of limited to eccentric contractions, because of various organization. So it's not doing what people think it's doing. They get kind of, I think, seduced by some of the minor little physiology bits and pieces that aren't actually working quite the way they think they're working. When you look at everything in context, so definitely would always look at things from heavy strength training and high velocity training point of view in both vertical jumping and in throwing, and of course, as a result in things like punching as well. But as you said, as we've just been hinting there, we have got a whole bunch of colleagues and friends that we would kind of love to bring on this podcast and get their views on specific things like a baseball pitching golf, especially we've talked about. That would be great to have a guest on if you know anyone who's in the like shop or discase anything like that. I know I've had a couple messages about people interested in, you know, people that specialize in that. Yeah, that would be again, one that would be fantastic to get some guest on in the future and just kind of thrash this out with them. So, but just in terms of the real fundamentals of this, we've covered that today. I think we've hopefully provided enough information to be able to get going if they're interested in incorporating some of these ideas into their training programs, whether it's for basic throwing, whether it's punching, whether it's for anything else, whether any kind of rotational up a body activity. So, let's call it a day there. That's been a fantastic episode. Thanks for that. Thanks for that. And we will be back next week with sprinting. So, that will be fun because that really does change the game a little bit. So, hopefully you guys will join us next time.