#006 - David Siciliano - Here's why you feel like you're doing it all wrong

If I was just meeting you for the first time and I wanted to know what is the underlying theme that reflects the way you felt about yourself for most of your life, what would you say? This is a great game. Some pulls a car. It has a question. You're supposed to pick an answer. You think everyone at the table will also guess? Oh. What's that game called? Oh, I can't remember. But I've played it before. A great game. I lose every time. Not just like second, third. Like, I'm last every time. You just don't know. I just, this is not how my brain works. I don't think that way. And I think that's probably like the narrative. And I've learned to view it as a strength. I love that about myself. I just see things differently and that's great. That's definitely the common theme. The word you used it stood out to me only because I spoke to your wife yesterday. I asked her if I was to ask David how he's felt a lot of his life, the word that she said was different. Yeah. Let's give her a put it. I used to say intense, but that was too vague. Different is definitely good. Back to my mom, I was just chatting with my mom and she was saying I did like a drawing with this therapist. I went to when I was younger and I drew my family golfing, but I drew me like over here. And she showed it to my mom and was like, he feels like other, he feels like he's over there somewhere. And I have always kind of felt like that. I like that. You like that? I want to say like that. I'm cool with that. But that was I had to get cool with that. That's interesting. What does that mean? I'm cool with that being the other. I like it now. Now, I don't know. I think as I've gotten older, especially as I've had kids, I have learned to embrace my point of view. And I'm sure that I know my point of view with some people I want to always agree with. I feel like I've learned to treat it as my superpower or whatever. It's something that exists as that point of view that people wouldn't agree with. What do you mean? When you say people, my point of view, people don't always agree with it. Yeah. Like if something happens, I know that like, oh, I have a reaction to that. I know how I feel about that. And I bet it's someone here will really disagree with it. And I'm cool. That's fine. Like a certain group's like you, I would say it, or some people find it funny. Some people find it really not funny. Is there something that you believe that might be quite controversial? Not really. I mean, it's not like politics or whatever. It's mostly like, I don't know. I don't have a lot of specifics. Okay. Yeah. I just feel a little different. I think what Jess is showing to say, my wife, was that as a kid, you don't know you're different. So like I would say something or feel a certain way or have a reaction or want to do it a certain way. And the people would be like, why are you doing it that way? Like, what? Am I doing it really wrong? Or whatever? Yeah. I'm just doing it a different way. Yeah. It's probably what she's talking about. Would you say that that, I mean, at least the glimpses at which I know of, maybe the careers you've taken on, many would say I'm maybe not common, like from men to go into the acting space, for example, which is where you were before, do you think that was, is that a manifestation of that belief? Do you think? That's interesting. Maybe indirectly. Well we came from, I, well, being different as a little kid is cute, I was very cute because I was really different. I would do weird things and say different things. And I think at a certain point that shift is from being cute to like, I don't know, a lot of, a lot of, probably a lot of different things. And, you mean example, what does it shift from? It's cute as a little kid and then what do you mean? Maybe like, they don't agree with, like they don't agree with it or risky or. Yeah, I think that trade of being kind of different at a certain age and in the communities I was in, I was in very religious, very conservative, certain way, like type, like you behave as a certain way of community. And I'm like, I don't know how to do it, the way you do it. And so I think that, stop being cute. And I think when I found the theater community, it was like, oh, these are a bunch of weirdos who like love that I, when you're in theater or in acting or any type of art, having a strong point of view is an asset. That's like what you want. It's a strong point of view. So I'd go up and on my point of view and then I'd get applauded for it. I think there was more like an indirect, like, huh, I want to know what this feels like. And so I kept going that direction. What does this feel like to like have this be an asset? Have there be less rules or like less push back or like, you know, like invite this kind of like difference. Yeah. And like storytelling doesn't work without conflict, like there literally is no story without conflict. Yeah. So that was great. Yeah. And I think I was more an exploration of that, but at a certain point I'd stop needing to explore that and I needed to do something else, which is why the career is shifted. I want to go back to when you say at some point being different wasn't cute. I just think that's way bigger than just you, you know, it's a universal conversation that I think is really important, you know. At some point being different for some people becomes now that way of being different is now you're too gay, you're too annoying, you're too loud, you're too intense, you're too whatever. What do you think that point is and what was that point for you and what were the parts of you that were initially cute that you felt became unacceptable? Yeah, I think a lot, I mean, I think a lot of the times, this is my experience, I think some of that is at a certain, excuse me, I think at a certain age when someone else does something it can challenge you. Like, so if you're doing something and I don't feel like I'm safe to do that, I don't like that you're doing that. Right? You're doing something, if you're doing something, say it again. Like if everyone over here is all turning left and I go turn right, it's like, no, don't turn right. That's dangerous for me, really, is what I'm saying. And I think at a certain age when a three-year-old does it, you're like, whatever, they're three. Yeah. Go ahead, like, my daughter really likes to, she's learning to, she's part of training and she, part of how we've gotten her to be more into it is we, like, let her pee on the grass, but now it means that if we're like, we did soccer today, soccer practice, and she needed a wee wee, so she just, like, peed behind a tree in the middle of soccer practice. And I'm like, amazing. All right. Like, I mean, whatever. Like, I don't know. Last week, she didn't say anything and she peed her undies during soccer practice and she was really uncomfortable. So like, we're improving. Yeah. She's three. Yeah. Who gives a shit. Yeah. Like, but if, you know, you're 14, 12, any other, a little bit older age, like that would be a little weird. Yeah. Yeah. Or it'd be funny. Yeah. And you would have more of opinions about it. Yeah. I think that's kind of what I'm getting at. Okay. The things that it was cute about. Like, I was always dressing up. I was pretending to be all the different characters. There's like, I have, all these different costumes, like, every photo of me, I'm like, I'm like in a tuxedo and I'm being James Bond and I'm like, six. I don't know what I was doing. Yeah. But I loved it. Yeah. And, um, you know, I, uh, actually my dad started writing down questions I asked. Okay. I wish I could find it. It's in my box somewhere. And the question is, like, oh, we got like way more complex and it's like age seven, like, you know, so and so said this, but like, that doesn't make sense, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all the questions get like complex, so I was thinking about that at seven. Yeah. And, um, so yeah, I think at a certain age started, I started being like, probably, I'm like a little hard to quantify, I guess, maybe, in my community. I read this thing that bees, 80% of bees do this, like, dance to find the honey. And then there's the 20% of bees that do the dance wrong and they find new honey. And they find that I'm the 20% of bees who's like, I'd not do the dance right, but I went and found this other honey. That's amazing. And that's cool. It reminds me of a question. I was speaking to, obviously, Jess yesterday. And I was asked, I was saying, I don't know if I was like, I don't know if I'm going to get this question right. And she was like, okay, ask it wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, whoa. I mean, dance it in acting was because I never heard anyone ask me that before. That is totally an acting world thing. We say it all the time. Like, do the bad version. Yeah. Like, do it wrong first because sometimes not doing anything at all is worse. Like, just try it. And then try it again. And try it again. Well, it lost all. It's amazing. I kind of think everyone should do a little bit of it. I think it's a really good, it's some good skills. Yeah. Just get a little bit messier and let it out there and start seeing all that part of living as like, not right or wrong. It's just like this thing that's totally, you know what I mean? It sounds like that requires, I mean, the acting space, it sounds like is absent of judgment. In many ways, maybe it may be in a different way in this judgment, but it sounds like in the actual process of finding what the magic is, there is so much more expression because there's very little judgment of the process of figuring it out. That's actually really just, I haven't thought about it this way. I mean, most of, I mean, the basics of acting. What are you trying to accomplish? Like, I want to get the girl. Yeah. So what are your strategies? You're going to do that. I'm going to ask her out. I'm going to compliment her. I'm going to look really nice. Like, these are the strategies I'm going to point to get the girl. How do I do those things? That's what creates the character. So like, what is looking really nice mean to this character? What is asking her to look like to this character? Hey, do you want to go out later? They're like, what are you doing there? You know what I mean? Like, very different character. So like, I think what you're saying is right. Like, there's no judgment around the how, like there is in real life because you're trying to create the character. You're like reverse engineering fucked up, like brain totally thought probably. like who wants to watch like a perfectly put together well as a character nobody it's not interesting So you're like reverse engineering like trauma and you're in your person you're pointing and like yeah So there's like a sense of like exploring. There's still tons of judgment But like it's not the things you judge like a normal life where it's like oh, I'm too loud. I'm crying too much Yeah, I'm like too angry. Yeah, it's like who is this person? Yeah work. Sorry. Who has a work on the scene like it sounds like this room for experimentation You know like and I would be curious to know like in the real world how much of that is Authentic, you know, like yeah, if obviously I'm in a relationship now, but like let's say I was single I go up to someone and I'm like I'm gonna try and do one of those, you know like hey like That counts, right? Yeah, that's still authentic. Yeah, like and I'm curious to know I sort of have a few questions around this one It sounds like and I would love to know for you that putting on the role of these characters in some ways might have felt more authentic Yeah, then real you Yeah, that's such a good question. I really liked it. I went to school for acting I didn't I wasn't didn't go to school to acting because I wanted to be an actor I was really enjoying the sense of like acceptance and exploration and kind of like being just well all over the place and I was like well, I guess I'll study go study that. I seem to be getting good feedback on it So I went to school for it and I I just loved it. It was like I was very um Response I'm very responsive. So I was really responsive to stimulus. I could like cry over something I could rage over something. I could be gross. I could be cool. I could like I just I really liked it and but It it was funny because it was like it's going well when you're really doing it And then it can't it's so so weird like The emotion is a byproduct of the circumstances you're in. So if I'm really pretty if I'm really trying to get the girl on It's not working like my body will respond as if that's happening So like I'm trying over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over And if I like focus and try to be present with that task my body will respond that's getting more and more frustrating Or whatever it's supposed to be and like you learn all these tools to kind of have this real experience To tell a story. Yeah, and and at a certain point that I started being like okay I'm really responsive this. That's not necessarily me like that's my body responding So it was yeah, it was it was really good for me. I needed to do that exploration and get rid of the demons Yeah, yeah, this feeling of like I can't I'm too much. I can't be too different. I can't be it just like okay Now I've been all the things and this community doesn't give a shit. I can do that all I want But now I got it. I don't actually want to be an actor. I don't like acting. I don't want to do that So if you didn't if you don't actually like it, what was acting symbolic of for you? Yeah, I wasn't about performing I think a lot of people like acting for the performing. I like to the exploration. I liked like who's this person What are they doing in the scene? Why? Why why for that? Why? Why for that? Why like I liked all that and then I liked getting on my feet and like saying the lines different ways and trying different strategies I loved the exploration of like what is this person and story and that person and how does it how does it all work as a team Yeah, the director's vision with the lighting and the I just loved all that I didn't actually need to perform it most that when I started um I'd say getting competitive like when I had an agent and was like my last year school and like getting to that part of the world Whenever it was time to like perform the play. I was kind of over it. Yeah, and my performance would get kind of worse Compared to the like week before yeah, and I don't think it was like I got stayed for it I think it was like I don't actually want to do this in front of people. I just like figuring it out So you yeah, it was less about the actual act of performing them or about having the space to explore yeah How does that interconnect or relate to your religious upbringing? Yeah, I didn't have the space to explore So that was almost like yeah the way out of it was 100% my way out so much so that um you know growing up They told me like if you have the thought it's just as bad as doing it So I was told like oh shit like if I have a thought at the end if you have the thought like if you're thinking about sending or a sins or whatever having simple thoughts That's the same as doing it. How do you feel about that? Oh, so I was so freaked out. I was like wait, so I can't even think things like So I saw a recipe for suicidal ideation. I know Maybe they didn't mean that that's what I took from it and I yeah and you have the thought it's in it Yeah, and I think differently So I was fucking devil with the number of dude. There were parents who were like you can't play with my my son like you know A lot of my house because like I don't know why I was different like They really didn't like that so I and I was trying my best but then at a certain point I was like I'm not gonna try to do this. I'm gonna rage against it. Yeah, yeah So the acting thing I think was directly from from that wanting to just Shake that up feeling off of like I just want space again. I think that's what feeling still like you can't like You got to be a certain way to fit in this little thing and do it a certain way Plus my dad hit my one Bible teacher my senior. He was like oh David to my dad was yeah, David so close He he almost really he almost gets it and my dad Plus him was like or he just thinks of it differently than you and I loved him for that But that was that was the community in a nutshell for me that I grew up in Was like it's a certain way you do it a certain way. You're doing it wrong And that was the religious community. Yeah And if you were to give a word to describe what being as a Christian Yeah, if you were to give a word to describe what it feels or felt like being inside of that Christian community What was the word? It was like um I could say like a limited perspective or like um Like first-person limited do you know like in books like you there's like third-person Third-person omniscient first-person it felt like it felt like like in hunger games when you just hear Katniss's thoughts and you're like but what else is going on on these outskirts like that's how it felt It was first-person limited so like I only had this one view and of course I'm eight so I'm like I feel like there's something around like corner, but I can't see it. I'm not allowed to see it I don't I don't and I don't even know it's exists, but I felt it or like the giver You know, he's like I feel like there's more and then you've realized he's seeing colors and it like blesses mind like It was like there's something there, but I'm eight. I don't know. There's any other option I just know this doesn't feel right in my body. Yeah feels right for other people's bodies. It's fine Didn't for right for my body. You know what's interesting is most people Just purely by the way that we I think grow up as children and we look at Elders naturally as the gods of our universe, right? Yeah, so It's almost like we naturally are taught not to trust what we feel and should trust instead the words of those that are telling us what to do Yeah, and so I think we live in a world that Too many people have become accustomed to that It's like an abandonment of self-imit placement of what we think we should do be say But it seems like you never I don't know what did you never have that where you always the rebellion like did you always have? I love talking to you um I I uh definitely felt that you feel I just my whole feel so I know because I always I'm like I've never thought of the way I definitely did feel all of that. I'm not able to do that I'm just not So I think the result was and this is why that community didn't work for me For me in my body because I see and experiencing just differently. I just do I'm not able to conform so I just get shame All I have is just shame shame you're wrong. You're you're doing it wrong. You're bad and like you Like why can't you be like this? It's just shame. It's not gonna get me over here I can't get there. I can't do it the way they want me to I just don't do this that way So all on left with the shame so I I for me that community did not work for me My brother love that community. I have friends who love that community I friends are still in that community. I have no problem with the community itself Maybe not agree to disagree with their methods, but they mean well It's just for my like chemical personality genetics everything didn't work for me It just made me feel about doesn't make me go to where they want me to go Something sense. Yeah. I think the common Feeling around the rebellion against religion is them his it's really a rebellion against The religious induced shame. Yeah What's what's kind of funny and it's not funny There's like a sliding doors thing. We're like I'm not I'm not even against what they believe in I don't maybe don't agree with it But there's parts of it that I did I do like like even growing up in at the school I would say like well okay, but here's this part where Jacob goes out and wrestles with God so much he breaks a hit So cool like can we not do that at school? Like can we not really wrestle with this? They were like no you just don't get it Dave is what did what yeah? Yeah, yeah He went out on the desert by himself wrestled with God's where she broke a hit So he renamed himself. Yeah bad ass. Yeah, and that's fucked up. Yeah, I want to do that. Yeah, it's like a you a you wrong But they won't right so they're like you know David you can't you what I but it's in the book and that it was there's a lot of things like that Where I was like I'm not against this. This is cool like Jesus Hank Jesus against them into a petition Oh, yeah, the horrors and tax collectors that's like I mean like who's that now like that That's like gnarly like you know, I mean yeah, so I would have been more into it But they were just like no you don't get it. This isn't how we do this and that's interesting and quite Ignorant and also arrogant. Yeah to be like, I don't know, I won't say because I don't get it and I didn't get it then I still don't of just like, I don't understand why your version of this, you've decided as a group community, this is how we do it. Yeah. It's so different from what I'm reading and I just don't get it. And that's cool. So it's not for me. For some people, it makes them feel great, makes them feel safe, better people, all that, but it just doesn't work for me. That's cool, it's fine. Even hearing you say that, I've never actually heard that story. Jacob went out, I've heard the story, but I don't know the way you said it landed differently for me. He wrestled with God and broke his hip. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. In my pursuit of having a connection with the divine, am I not allowed to have curiosity and confusion? Can it not have an anger towards it in moments as I try to figure it out? Yeah. I also like Jesus goes out in the desert and the version I got was he's tempted by all the things and it's like, no, the dude went out in the desert and had a spirit journey. Who knows what he experienced? And he chose that. It's like, we want to fill in the meaning of the story. Yeah. Or like, Jonah, oh my God, I loved the Jonah story because it hit me differently after college. I was walking on a street in New York and I literally was like, oh, I stuck Demetrax. I was like, I did Jonah. The story I was told was like, Jonah, God says Jonah, go to Nineveh and go convert them. And he's like, I don't want to know. And then he says, I don't want to. And God punishes him by like having him swallowed by a whale until he's like, fine, oh, go. No. My version of it is he's like, I should really do that, but I'm scared shit was out of it. So I'm going to go the opposite direction. Just totally what he's doing. I'm going to go rail against this thing. I know I need to do. Yeah, I should do. I feel it. I need to go there. And then he hits his rock bottom, which is in the belly of a whale. Like, come on. He's rock bottom. If I go now, I'll be present with Nineveh. Had he gone to Nineveh right away? He wouldn't have been present with that. He didn't have the experience to know otherwise. Yeah. And I, I like that. That's cooler version than like don't just obey God. You'll get eaten by a whale. That's not what they're saying, but that's kind of how it took it at seven. It reminds me of a song of a song. What's the guy's name? I can't remember the guy's exact name, but the song says there's a line in the song that says I danced with the devil for a season. Yeah. And I think in our modern culture, there's such an aversion to going that way, but it's almost like the only way to real access of God, infinite love, divine, pure fulfillment, understanding of life, bliss, happiness, all of these things is in the quite little antithesis of the experience, which is rock bottom. Yeah. Whatever some like call ultimate sin, dancing with the devil, quote unquote. How do you wrestle with that? Like in that relationship between we all want to pursue enlightenment, but very if you want to go and quote unquote, dance with the devil. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's why I'm thankful for the acting side-crossed I did, because you know, like you I learned that like my disgust, anger, fear, joy, all those feelings are feelings and they're byproducts of what I'm thinking, what I'm doing. They're not necessarily me. They're parts of the experience. They're it's a whole palette. And so, okay, those are not scary anymore to me. And I think I really I also really needed that as an adult, because as a kid, they weren't scary to me. I had no problem like being really upset, really happy. Like really what I like, I love scary movies. Like I didn't have that like a version impulse. I think a lot of I see people have like I don't want to feel fear or I don't want to get too angry. So I liked that. So if if if it's true that like these feelings are just part of life and there are byproducts of what we're doing and feeling and they're important, their information, but they're not you, right? You want your feelings. They're part of it. Okay, well now I'm not afraid of like exploring something that's scary. I will be scared. It's okay. I don't need to avoid the fear, right? I think like knowing that thought is huge, because then it means you can like go explore things and be like, oh, this feels really bad. I don't want to do this. Not because it says in a Bible, not to do because like I don't like this. That's information. Yeah, I think it also speaks to the capacity to be with an emotion. It's like, yeah, it's like it's almost like one layer back. It's like now all of a sudden fear is not bad, fear demands to be felt. Yeah, anger is not bad, anger demands to be felt. Even depression is not bad, depression demands to be felt. Yeah, yeah, I'll take it even further. We remember I kept having this thing where like the week before the week before, like a couple of weeks before the project would be done. I'd all of a sudden be like, I'm I'm I'm just like I get so afraid and it was like a pattern. Yeah. And then I worked with my teachers and my coaches and they were like, I think what's happening is you're you're appreciating how like gnarly this role is that you're doing or this experience you're about to go do. And that's great. Like you have a respect for like, I have to go do that. And I'm not quite there yet. And that is that scares the shit out of me. That's that's great. Like I'd rather be feeling that and respecting this task I need to do because it means I respect the enormity of it. I'm going to go attack it fully. Yeah. As opposed to being like, yeah, I got it. I'll go do that. Like would I really have bringing the same like dedication to it? Probably not. And so like that's information. Totally. So you go do something you explore something you're like, Oh, this scares me. Am I like scared? I shouldn't do this or am I scared like maybe I should go further. It's information as opposed to like I'm scared not doing it. Right. You haven't even stepped in the ring now. Yeah. Like now I'm like going over here to something else completely. I don't know. I totally know what you mean. And I can resonate with the experience, even the launching of this podcast and any businesses that I've around and even signing a professional soccer contract. It's almost like the closer I get to the thing, the more it starts to feel like I shouldn't be doing the thing. Yeah. You know, but that's just the story that I'm attaching onto the fear when really if I was to just cleanse my mind of wanting to put a label on it. The truth is I'm scared. Yeah. Yeah. And then you're making me think of something I haven't thought before. So I did the acting thing. Everything was really, uh, everything really opened for me in that journey. I was I was very successful at school. I get one of the top three agents in New York. I'm going to like auditions for HBO TV shows, Broadway shows, all these things. And my body's just like, no, I don't want to do this. And I was like, what the? But I was taught like to not listen to those feelings as much right in the Christian community and like not incorporate that information as much. And I'm trying to like run away from that. So I was like, no, I'm going to I'm fucking do this acting thing. Why can't I do better? And I was like, I get pushing until eventually I was like, dude, I think your body's telling you. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, it's like both like, I'm afraid of it. I don't like it. Which doesn't feel me. I mean, that's interesting to me because you said I grew up at the Christian community. Some would say that your body talking to you is you intuition, which in a sense is a form of God. Totally. I agree. But though that's like that at the same time, like if that's God, but Christians are looking for God. Right. What's right? Yeah. Well, and this is another reason why it didn't work for me. I really like the version of God. That's like deep inside me. Yeah. And they liked the version of God that was very outside them. My mom just, well, my mom kind of likes both. Like I think different people need different things. And so for me, the deep inside me version because I'm different felt safer. And I like that. But that's not going to that's not going to be everyone. Like for some people, like I know I've talked to people, friends, family who like need the other thing and that feels calmer for them. I'm suspicious of other things. So yeah, because of my effort. So you've never envisioned God as something else. I just don't like that version. Yeah. I like it more like it's way deep deep. It's the same thing. Yeah. It's like a different visualization. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So anyway, I think that was my body being like, I don't actually want to do this. I was cool with this whole journey. And I needed you to do this journey. Yeah. And so this point, I'm now ready for a different journey. You don't have to push through this. Yeah. Like I really did. I tried everything. Yeah. And it was like, it was, I remember saying over and over again, I was like, it's like at the ninth hour or whatever that phrase is, I'm like sabotaging. Totally. Oh, man. I feel that's so heavy. So weird. Yeah. Like the, yeah. And even the knowing that you're sabotaging. You know, this is a new concept that's present for me because I feel that I have a tendency to do that thing too, especially recently. Like I'll start something and then some emotional comfort, like, ah, it's not for me. You know, yeah. When there's actually something here, like what, what is the thing? What is what's actually happening? Yeah. Because it's not for me as allowing me to be in the avoidance of that thing that just keeps coming back everywhere I go. It'll be here in the next venture, be in the next relationship, be in the next thing. It's not that it's not for me. It's actually the most for me. Right. It is here for me. But yeah, I don't yet have the language for that thing. And it's like my therapist describes it as he said true growth is the ability to hold the tension. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm not knowing. Yeah. Well, and I want to, I want to be like really honest, like just because I'm saying I experience these things and learn these skills. like, you stuff to do it every time. Like, it's still hard. Like, it's, you know, like, of course I run away from things. Like, of course things scare me. And I'm like, I don't think about that. Like, that it's all still there. But like, I know there's other options. So I just wanted to like, oh, yeah, because yeah, I mean, I don't, I have, um, Justin, I like, we haven't said this in a while, but we for a while were agreed on this, um, idea of like, what if every choice you make is totally the right choice, even the wrong ones. Like, what if it's just because we both look back at our, at our stories and my story, like, I was doing the same things open over again. It was like, I guess I needed to do it 38 million times before I was like, ah, that's what I'm learning from that. Oh, I want to go here, but I needed it 38 million times wrong. You know, like, what if like, what if we're exactly where we need to be? Yeah, what if every choice I've ever, it's kind of wild. How did you say that? Say that again. What if every choice you've made has been, has been the right choice came the wrong ones. Yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty mind-blowing. If you really think about like, what, just what if all the choices are right, all of them, no matter what choice you make, it's right. What if? Like, Jonah, like, you go a complete drive the direction, maybe you need to go the other direction. Like, how do you know? You don't. You don't. Like, what if? It's kind of crazy. It's kind of a crazy thought. It's kind of crazy. We spend so much time like, I do. Like, I think the greatest challenge, I mean, this whole podcast is about choice, the you choose podcast. Yeah. You know, and my mission and message is around choice. Why? Because not because I've, I think this is where I've often gotten it wrong. I thought the mission was about making better choices. And it's not about making better choices. It's just about choosing. I, I cannot agree more. Yeah. And I'm realizing it's like, it's just about getting off the fence more. Yeah. Just, just, just do it. I just go do it. Do something. It could be because then you'll be like, well, this was wrong. Now I know that. Yeah. You know. And you carry that with you the rest of your life. Totally. I think it's like growing up. It's so like, but even that, even that narrative of like, this was wrong is like, who knows? Well, how do I know that in five years, I won't come across a moment where my son is in that experience. Yeah. And I have the wisdom from that moment to be able to save my son's life. For example, I, I, I, yes, I, oh my gosh, I love this so much because my, my first born is, I'll name it all if she's a lot like my wife, temperament is very similar. Sometimes they both are talking to me. I'm like, oh my god, you've multiplied. I'm like telling me what to do. I mean, you can only have one in setting the rules. They're both like project managers. My son is so much like me, temperament wise. And he just has the biggest feelings and then they're gone. Like, like, he'll be subset about something, but then he'll start laughing a second later. I'm like, Oh, God, that's just, that's just programmed. Yeah. Like, I spent, so I spent so many things being like, I messed that up. That was the wrong choice, wrong choice over and over again. But no, like that, that I, like, I, I'm looking at him and going, Oh my God, we're just wired big this way. Yeah. And that's great. And like, now I know exactly what to say to you when you're 12. Like, like, I will be his, I will be his advocate. I will know exactly what he's going to. I want to know exactly what he's going to, but I'll be pretty damn good idea. And that's amazing. Like, that makes me think back to all those things I experience of like, wow, I get to share that experience with him. And I know my parents did that with me. And like, how cool is that? That colors it completely differently. Totally. It's, it's kind of blowing my mind right now. Yeah. He's, he's so cute. He's amazing. But yeah, he's got always big feelings and then they're just gone. They're just going. Yeah. How does that make you feel knowing that those big feelings? How does it make you feel looking at younger youth who him? Yeah. I love him so much. And it makes, it is, it is like teaching me to love all these parts of myself that I didn't for a long time. And then I learned to accept these parts from myself. And then I started learn how to use them as like strengths. And then now having him, I'm like, Oh, and I actually, I genuinely love them because I love you like this. Give me an example. He's split his lips several times like bloody from just like falling over. He tripped the other day and I got him back. His, his eye was like swollen shut because he was looking at the birds and he clipped over a thing and just like lying in on his face. I don't know, bad parenting, I guess, but in his, his, his like, his eye was like swollen shut. He looks like Rocky and Rocky one. So he's like, hurt himself. But like, he'll also like go, like, try to grab my phone. He's one. I'm trying to grab my phone and I'll be like, River. No, just like that. And he'll go, and the cry is the same as when he split his lips. It's the same cry, the same intensity, the same sound, same everything. And Ederson makes me appreciate myself more because like, yeah, like he's just responsive and he's got a lot of feeling there and that's just how he's wired. Whereas like my other daughter, like the cries are all different and her feelings modulate based on the thing and they're so very, very easy to, yeah. This is coming up. Some ways I'm hesitant to share this, but it's coming up for Kat and I right now, like, I am noticing how uncomfortable I feel with certain emotions of hers. And it's actually not her emotion. It's what her emotion is doing to me. And this is where I think I'm learning that, and I'm don't have kids yet. I would like to one day in the not so distant future, but the recognition that most parents are parenting their children based on what makes the parent uncomfortable. Yeah, which is not actually allowing the kid to express all that they are. It's so hard. And this is where emotions go underground. It's so hard and it's really fun. I don't like this food, but I should serve it to my kid because they might like it. It's every single thing is like, I don't want to get my feet wet. But she's like, oh, or my kid's like, oh, the waves. And I'm like, the water's cold, but that's cool. Okay, let's go on the water. It's like every single thing is like, I don't know. I'm we're trying really hard to be intentional about everything. And, but I'll see you got to let it go and give yourself a break. And it is funny. It is like every single thing is like, okay, yeah, why not? Like why not? Just like smear your food all over the place. Like you're learning how to use your hands and how food works. So like, okay, like, you know what I mean? But like, oh, no, don't do that. Cause off to clean like whatever. It's so funny. It's like all that's every single thing is like, why, why, why do I feel like that? And if, and it'd be so easy, and it is easy, and we do it all the time to just like forget thinking that way. And just stop it. Just don't do that. Yeah. That's so easy, especially when you're tired. And it's like everything. It's like, you're overwhelmed with stuff. I was fascinated. I was watching a family member of mine. They, my mom just got two puppies. And the dog was barking. And he said to the dog, stop being naughty. Stop barking. Yeah. And then the dog peed in the crate. And the bark was the ask to go outside to pee. But you shunned the bark. And now that, that need came out in what might be considered a dysfunctional way peed in his totally totally. Look at what? And like, I just thought of that on a macro scale. It's like, if you deny a child, the ability to feel a emotion, emotion, that emotion is coming here for a reason. Yeah. But if it's being denied and asked to be suppressed and repressed, it's going to come out in a dysfunctional way. It will come out anyway. And I think this is one of the ways I feel like I'm different. It doesn't, I'm not scared. Like when all those like trying to climb something, I'm not like I, I am, I'm like, I remember just now having this conversation. I'm like, I am looking at her and being like, she could fall in her herself. But I'm also deciding it's a foot. Like it's, I'm cool with it. There's a rug. Like, if she hurts herself, it's not going to be, I'm okay with the danger here. I'm riskier. Fine. So I'm, I'm okay with the risk. But I want her to like, if she falls, she will learn how to do that. And like, she felt so many times at one point. And then now she's so good at climbing. And so it's like, so like, I'm cool with that choice. Now I am cool with that. In my temperament in my body, not every parent will be. And so that's fine. Like do what you got to do. But yeah, I do feel strongly of like, well, yeah. I mean, there's so much of the theme of this conversation that seems like it's coming through. The acting afforded you that it sounded like your early upbringing. Sounds like your whole life in some way has been a little bit of a rebellion against this early upbringing, which was, which didn't allow you afford you the space to express and realize for yourself what wasn't working. You know, it's almost like what I'm realizing as a theme of the conversation is that you only get where you're intending to go through the lens of realizing everything that isn't that thousand percent. And I know this one myself as an adult. I need to have it come out of my mouth. I need to do some, I need to do the thing I'm thinking about. I have to do it externally. I can't sit and like think about it and process like I have to, it has to come out. Yeah. And that's how I'm wired. So that doesn't work in certain communities. Yeah. But so I found communities in spaces where I could get it out to be like, oh, yeah, I actually don't agree with that. But I needed it to come out. And to be fair, to my parents, they were amazing at letting me do that. They cultivated so much openness. There was like lots of all of these concepts were all present when I was born. Like they were their hippies turned Christian or hippie Marxists turned Christian and swung some in the middle and they had both been doing therapy since their 20s. Like that was in my home. Yeah. It was then I'd go to school and there'd be this whole community And of course, I don't know to come home be like mom school is really different than home I don't know to say that I'm just like so so it to tweak it a little bit is like I actually had the exploration But then the world outside said no yeah, and so then everything was a response to trying to like understand those Yeah, but this feels so right. Yeah because it's okay at home. Yeah, I do Yeah, I've never had it. Yeah, this fun. I'm learning things about myself I want to know you said before you think everyone should try acting at some point in their life. Why? Even just thinking about like Approaching a situation where you're trying to do something not like you know Kick a ball on a net like you're you're doing something the goal of like you have to look at a situation like okay This is two people talking in the scene and they're trying to do something. What is he trying to do? What's his goal? How is he trying to do it? Okay, and this person's character? How does he approach those things like you know like the To want to go out later. Do you want to go out later right like that that stuff? I think first of all seeing every human as that is so helpful of like what are they trying to do? How are they trying to do it? And what's their way of doing it? I think is really fascinating But more than that, it's then you start to see like your feelings your thoughts your reactions to things is like Something a little bit more removed from your identity, which I think is good. Yeah, it's information. It's like You are responsible for it. Okay. It's also not you. It's like I don't have a very specific relationship to that experience And I think that's really helpful to be like huh I'm afraid or I'm really angry. Yeah. I'm so angry like what happened Well, they said that like it it's like practicing that skill in a safe way and a kind of reverse way The same time acting is kind of fucked up because you're like reverse engineering like bad habits and like unhealthy things So I'm speaking on both sides more now. Yeah, it sounds like a dance a little bit I mean the path that I'm fast. I'm fascinated by both worlds You know, I'm fascinated by the understanding that what's the guy who played the Joker? Yeah, he's larger. Yeah, and said that it really fucked him up. Yeah, and Jack Nixon warned him because like do this character's fucked up Yeah, because you almost like you play it so much that you lose sight of what's actually to do the thing I think that's the thing most people don't realize it's actors. They are doing it like when they when they're really good actors They are feeling those things. They're really feeling the murder in mayhem of the joker's feeling then they put it away But like your body can't just put things away your body doesn't know the difference that blew my mind in college I remember a teacher saying that your body doesn't know the difference So you're tricking your body to have a real physiological response to fake things For me, I was not able to like come safely out of that's why it was like this isn't good for me long term some people can totally do that And there's a lot of methods to acting some people will do it that way whatever But at a very basic level like doing a scene and like having to memorize lines and try to playing with strategies And then like letting the feelings come out and having it be something that just didn't matter like you just had feelings about this thing That was fake. I think it was just such a fascinating conversation for me because it's like you're talking about acting like you like you What's his name? Who played the joker? Jack Nixon he thought you he's like he's like he's like yeah So he rehearses the Joker he rehearses that character for so long that he forgets who he is in some senses And that is now in him. Yeah, sure or he's bringing out the parts of them that are similar to that is similar There's a lot of ways to look at it. Yeah, how what that makes immediately makes me go to is people in the world Yeah, they've rehearsed a way of being facilities. Yes, that their body doesn't know. Yes Like are they depressed or if they rehearse depression for so long? Yeah, are you anxious or if you just rehearse anxiety for so long? And there is there is stuff around like they did the test in New York where they had a jar that said like good on it And a jar that said bad on it or like a jar that said good job and a jar that said something They had these two water jars that had words on it and they put it in the subway station I have to find this article and they then put the molecules of the water under microscope And the one that had good on written on it that people were looking at it thinking good good good Had perfectly symmetrical like molecules all arranged and the one that had bad on it was all like these jagged like Same water still water and like they've measured this. This is a thing you're like our chemistry response to what we tell it So if we're rehearsing these Narratives that we haven't but ourselves or these habits like just go try to change it try something else Fear to me go play see what else is out there. Yeah. Why am I always getting angry as my first response? Are there any other feelings? I feel about this like especially man yeah anger so at the top. It's so easy So like what else is below that like am I angry covering? What totally like you know fear. Yeah, I think that's good. I think that's helpful This brings up a conversation for me that surrounds like. I've been thinking about this People used to ask me how are you And I just my my natural response was I'm good Yeah, then I went through this phase when I got into personal development where I worked with a coach Working with a coach and one of the things he said to me was I want you when people start asking how you are To say I'm phenomenal Yeah, so people start asking me how I am phenomenal. I'm tremendous Then I get into more of like the spiritual sort of like The recognition that I want to be more honest with people. So now when people ask me how I am Sometimes I don't know the answer But I can feel that if I've been in a season of feeling a certain way It's so easy to just default to I'm feeling sad, but I'm not Like am I feeling sad or is me declaring I'm sad creating the sad? Yeah Yeah, my mom calls this the liminal space. I don't know what that word actually means But that little space where you're like I don't know and we we I do this We try to get out of that space so quickly and yeah, it's so easy to yeah Like that space is where the magic happens and that space is the space I think things like acting and all this stuff we're talking about there's lots of things out there like helps Get us comfortable worth of what I don't know like But also is it help like I suppose what I'm trying to figure out still is like Is to what extent is it helpful to continuously rehearse telling people your feeling anxious or feeling sad or feeling Right this way like to what extent is that honest and it's getting it out of you so it feels like a sense of relief Versus you'll be cursing the repetition that this is how you feel and as a result the language is becoming you Yeah, you know, like so now it's just natural for you to respond to someone you know I'm barely making it through or I'm just getting through the day or I'm surviving right like are you surviving? Or is that language creating the response that you now? Yeah, and then what you're getting at too is the like like it's like honesty because Here I am saying like well, you know go try other things experiment But also like there's some there's it could be just as damaging to like ignore what you're really feeling and like forcing a thing on top of it Yeah, you're like trying to be yeah, and so But I think getting in the ring at all is helpful. I think I think that's the biggest takeaway from this conversation that I think I'm trying to say is like It's the not deciding what it is and like Not needing to know what it is not like knowing how to do it like that's the good stuff Because it keeps you really thinking like am I doing this right and like that's a good moment like do I am I said like how do I feel as opposed to just being like yeah This this this your socks like like you're saying where you're like rehearsing an answer but the same on the other side. I'm phenomenal like Are you that can be helpful but but not forever? No, I don't I mean I don't know Yeah, I don't have the full answer surrounding it and I think I think if we would even take a couple steps back it sounds like both end a little bit like there's a like I realize Like you said you have you have to try all the things to realize what doesn't doesn't work Yeah, you know like I can go and tell everyone for six minutes straight I'm phenomenal and then I realize like actually sometimes I'm not phenomenal And that's keeping people in arms distance then I can go the other way and I can be like I'm telling everyone how I really feel But actually that's keeping me stuck in a place. I don't want to be so now there's a dance. Yeah, and now what a great journey I couldn't have had this idea if I didn't have this whole progression to a life here Right, you know, like if all those choices were the right choice for you like that sounds like a great journey for you Yeah, like you learned so much totally so great But that does mean there were probably some like really like not great feeling periods in that exploration. That's cool Yeah, yeah, you were on your way somewhere totally I don't know it's And the appreciation for the great periods of course it lays throughout history Yeah, you know, it's in every successful sportsman As he looks back on his story and he realized he gets the championship ring and it's like actually The journey is the whole point. Yeah, we'll talk. Yeah, and this is making me think about like um I should have lost it. Come back. This is big me think about um Uh, going back to acting like my Is it do I actually think this my goal isn't necessarily to feel good all the time Like I I don't know if I want I don't know if I'm striving for feeling happy All the time. I don't think that's my goal So like what is my goal anyway? but I think that's an important distinction because I think I see that in others if like I think they're trying to like avoid feeling not happy Yeah, and they want to just feel happy but I don't but happiness comes from like I feel like fulfilled by my work I will like enjoying playing with my kids. I am Let's answer this list. Let's dissect this for men. Yeah, in particular then because the immediate When you say that I think my belief is that we've got unhappiness confused with the actual experience of feeling Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is most men don't want to be happy Sorry, I'm gonna say that again. Most men don't want to feel happy. They want to feel period. Oh, yeah, I would go there Yeah, wow, interesting. It's like Again, I use this on I said this yesterday, but it reminds me of the luminous song. Where is it the luminous where they say? What's the limit? What's the line from the luminous? better to feel better to feel pain than nothing at all and the opposite of love we'd offer we'd think that opposite of love is fear or hate But it says the opposite of love is indifference. Yeah Yeah, I agree. Well, this works from my brain. Not everyone's brain. If I'm not getting so feelings are information Right, I touch and burn out that top. Yeah, I do something. Oh, I feel really bad about that. If that's information if I'm feeling nothing I'm not getting any information. No data That sounds terrible. Yeah, I want data totally And we assume it's one data don't you want the data? Yeah, that's like it sounds like that is in some ways I start I'm feeling like that's the most like If someone was to ask me what's the meaning of life at this stage in my life, I would answer it's to feel To feel it all Like the up the down the depression the anxiety the bliss the joy because you cannot know You eat just that's that's the point and the greatest pain Or suffering in my life has not been in the actual experience of the feeling It's actually the experience of the feeling that really used me for the suffering That's true. Yeah, I think I agree with that, but I would add something for me. What's different? Okay, which was okay now that I'm feeling I'm doing that or why do I want to do it like I want to feel everything so that I can be Present with what I'm doing or like I'm thinking about my kids like I Don't I want to feel everything so that I can like stay engaged with my kids when they're growing and doing things I'm like I'm deep absorbed that experience because it will go so fast Um, I think my brain. I mean initially is like I agree with that, but for what end? But I think I went through a phase to be an end Yeah, because I think I think I went through a phase of like I want to feel everything and I felt a lot and then I was like Okay, I'm done to use that. But I'm trying to realize I'm trying to think about like what did I shift to and I think it was like I feel much more comfortable now as I'm in my 30s with like cool So some people are gonna ask me how I'm doing. They just want to hear good. I'm cool to say good. That doesn't bother me anyway Yeah, you used to bother me. Yes, but now it doesn't that's cool That's what they need. I will put them at ease because I want to connect with them or like I or like We're like with work or yeah, different or like family like it's like I feel like I'm much more comfortable now with being dishonest in a moment Because I know I'm I'm trying to connect with them or I have like other I like I'm trying to do something else now I don't know if that is that's why I pause when you said it because I don't know if I agree with you for me. Yeah Yeah, I did at one point. Oh strong. I agree. I was like I just want to feel everything. That's my goal But now I feel like I'm doing something else. I don't know what it is that I'm doing but If you could give words to what it is, what would you say? I don't know. I feel like a lot more clarity since having kids and like I Want to be there with them. I want to do stuff with them I want to also work because I love my job and I love my company and I'm enjoying it But I don't want to do that at the sacrifice of other stuff I want to like make sure I'm staying connected with my wife with Jess like while we're doing like we have our kids and our our baby our company like I Don't know it just feels different. I feel much more clear of like I want to be present for certain things and the list is a lot smaller Can you show me a technique? Maybe it's through the world of acting okay to Release the tightness in my throat Tightness in your throat unless you were gonna see someone else Well, there's two I've two I thought of two things one is okay do this any hand any hand squeezes hard again Okay, we're gonna hold this for a squeeze squeeze squeeze squeeze squeeze Okay, now try to open your head try to yeah while squeeze it. No now like relax and open your head. It's like kind of hard Yeah, that's a that's a physical example of you have tension It you have to like actively relax it and already get it open like is it remembers it? I want to stay there So can I do that with my throat to like well, yeah Exactly so the one for your throat is to You were we were kind of doing it with the breathwork stuff a lot of the voice first there's like a Discipline and acting for your voice and a lot of it revolves there's one method called link later, which is where you go You try to make you try to have no tension be it involved and you just let sound come out But to do it, it's not completely relaxed. You're still like sending energy out the top of your head And then if you go Right and it's hard like I have tension. I'm doing it But a lot that's the beginning of this like method where you like make all these sounds All these funny things to like teach your body that you're sending energy specific places and trying to relax other places to like open up Your throat or whatever but at the same time certain characters maybe have a lot of tension in their throat And that's how they like that's how they cope with the world so you can reintroduce the tension like when you're doing that character Or maybe they're up on their nose and like they really want to be heard so they're like putting it in their nose Right like that's how how happens if like okay now that I can use this tool What about a man who really wants to deepen his voice like this? Why do you want to deepen your voice? I want to sound more masculine. Well exactly. So maybe we should explore that. No, it's not that I want to deepen my voice. I recognize that when my throat's tight I'm speaking from here. Yeah, and it feels like it's much from a much more anxious place And this regulated another grounded place. Yeah, and I think the desire to I know that when my voice sounds deeper I can I can understand that the depth of my voice is directly correlated to the Level of regulation. I feel inside of my nervous system. We call this outside in or inside out Outside in is hey, okay, so I'm gonna introduce tension in my hands and see how that affects like the way I do this scene I'm introducing tension externally to see if it changes how I feel on the scene right so if I now do this scene I will now feel like a little bit more like right that's outside in outside in so you see you introduce Introducing tension from the outside in right or from your case like oh, I know that when I'm talking up here It's making it easy. I just yawned. Yeah, so okay take a breath externally try to relax and get my voice lower and thinking it will help me feel better But for some people in certain situations, it's better do inside out. Why are you inside? Why are you tensing here? Are you trying to like? Keep feelings down or like are you trying to control something or like what? Yeah, there's definitely when my throat's tight. It's there's something. I am afraid to say yeah I noticed when I talk to my mom for whatever reason when I talk to my mom my voice completely drops because she's I'm feel safe Like it's amazing and I that's how I know that the depth of the law. I feel that with you know This is so interesting because you might I mean, I'd like to think you feel this way, but like When I and I haven't spoken to a one-on-one a lot, but when I was on the phone the jazz. Yes, she's amazing at that Yeah, over the I even said it to the end of the call over the course of 20 minutes. I went from like To like I feel so calm. She is so good at that She yeah, people make we our friends kind of joke with her that like they just want to tell our artists all the secrets Yeah, she puts you at ease for our rules. Yeah, I get that she's definitely people have different energies and different things They bring to the table at least to call it the comet tail like when someone enters a room like they're they's bringing something with them like everyone's comet tail is different and That's an interesting conversation when someone enters the room. They're being something with them Yeah, I've always wanted to be the one that when they when I leave the room I leave something that I mean that's perpetrator Yeah, but like we used to use it as this is why acting is fucked up We used to use it for like okay This monologue doesn't really work with you because you just have this energy that's more hectic than the than the model than the character And so it's just not working and then you give them a come same exact person you give them a different monologue all of a sudden You're like whoa, you're such a good actor. Yeah because it like fits if it's now we're trying to get it sounds like it's like that's so interesting because The other way to look at that would be no you have to change to fit the role right Like no, no, we'll just give you a different one, but that is possible because some there I mean we know those actress Heath Ledger or Daniel Day Lewis like it takes a lot of work, but you can And I've seen I've seen we had this one class the advanced class where you like introduce okay You get the basis of acting you're doing the objectives you're doing the strategies you're figuring out how this character does it Now let's really play with the physicality and like introduce like weird ticks and like all these strange movements and like every single thing but try to have it be rude. in what are you trying to do? Why? Like something real, not just adding things for no reason. And it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool to watch. Like, whoa, their energy just changed. Like they were, they, some people were able to completely disappear and become something else. Man, I'm so fascinated by this. Can we stay on the acting piece? Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, it's fine. What else? What are some, give me some, what other exercises can I do as a man or two? In some ways, acting is akin to some form of state change. Yeah, totally. It is state change. Yeah. So, help me change my state. What else? I mean, you're like, okay, yeah. I was going to say my brother's a singer and an actor and a dancer. And even just he's taking me through some voice vocal exercises. Like, I can feel when I go lower, I actually feel it correlate to regulation inside of my system. And it goes back to what you were saying before that, like, you actually, your body doesn't know the difference. Yeah. So, like even, like that is, like, you can trick your system into actually being authentically grounded. I think I'm, I use this in my kids a lot. My, like, my all of will be like, I want, I want, I want, I want to, I want to. And then I'd be like, you say, Daddy, can I have that please? Daddy can have that please? It's like a completely different human. It's a completely different human. Just because I'm directing her, like, get out of the, like, blah, yeah, place and go, Daddy, may I please have what? And she's a whole different kid. It's like, all that just disappears instantly. Yeah. Because, because, and that is something that you can control, which is interesting. It's like, it's like the car before the horse or the horse before the car. It is chicken and egg completely. Yeah. You can actually, you know, my thing, I've done a few singing lessons recently. And she says, she said, all I want you to practice is this. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, and see how high you can go. Hey, and she was like, wow, you have great range. And I was like, fuck, I have great range. And if I really wanted to, I can go, hey, yeah, hey, I got a practice going deeper, but look at, like, look at, like, whoa. Well, yeah, and your voice sits at the bottom of your range. So does mine. We have a similar voice that way. So, like, I can't go much lower than I'm speaking now. Yeah. But I can go way higher. But that's great because it means that if you wanted to make a point, you can, right? Like, it just becomes a tour. I don't know. The other one I think everyone should do is yes, and we can we stay there for a minute. I want to stay there for a minute because I think in the world of manhood, we've interpreted higher pitched voices with less masculinity. Yeah. And I even feel this. It's like, oh, fuck, I'm talking right now and people can feel our high pitch. My voice is they're going to, they're going to trust me less. I would love to interview a communication expert and understand if that's true psychologically. Like, when I'm speaking, the reason I think I've, I think this happened consciously. And now it's an unconscious thing for me and maybe for you too, that I naturally rest at the deepest part of myself because I'm maybe trying to garner respect and trust. And like, like, I recognize that when I speak from this place, other people feel safer around me. Yes. I, yeah. And I know for me, because I grew up in the family that was, you know, very open to lots of feelings and my mom always encouraged that. I was pegged as more feminine as a boy growing up. And I think it was just because I was more expressive. I had more feelings. Now, that's sad. I'm more feminine because I'm more expressive and have feelings like that. So I'm getting more data than you. Like, I don't know. There, I'm being masculine about it. Like, what do you mean a dick? Like, yeah, I don't understand the definitions and the real thing. So like, what does that mean then? What really is masculine and feminine? Like, I think masculine and feminine energies use this in everyone and like, they're useful for everyone. But this is such a, this is a really interesting conversation. And then I, I want to pull it here. And then I want to go back to more acting exercises. But when you were talking before about how, like I said, if someone was to ask me the meaning of life in this phase of my life, I would say it's to feel. And you said, I don't know about that. It sounds like the feminine, it's almost like there wasn't, and correct me if I'm wrong here. But like, there was a femininity or maybe an over femininity energy to the part of you that wanted to feel but got lost inside the feeling. Yeah. But now you're at a place where it's like, oh, I want to have charge over those feelings. This is more of a masculine, like father, dad energy. But I'd be correct. Uh, yes and no, I think, I think I was, I think I didn't know myself. And I think it was causing me a lot of pain. I think I had a lot of agreements with myself that weren't helpful. And I think I felt that somewhere. And so I think I was seeking a little bit of destruction. Like, I remember I was dating this girl and she was not nice. And then we broke up and then I was like, I think I'm going to date her again to my friend. And he was like, yeah, I mean, do what you want to do. And I was like, okay. And so I like did it again. And it still was not great. But I think I was like kind of choosing it because I, I think I was like, I, I just, I want this data. Something isn't right. Like, and I was exploring this thing. And then at a certain, but there must have been some part of it that was right. Well, that's what I mean. Like, is it not right? It felt like it all not, it was painful. It was like, not fun. It's not long term. You know, like, it wasn't, it was not going to be like, I'm like, it was not healthy. Yeah. But also, like, I think I needed that because then I was like, cool. I know what I'm looking for. I know how I should be treated. I know a lot about myself and where I respond to people and how I'm in partnerships. Like, I think now I'm ready to find someone that I'm a Jess. She had the exact same experience. So we had that in common. But like, I wasn't ready to do this stuff out of your system. Yeah. Like you said about your tattoo. Yeah. Like, I guess you got to get this function. You have to work it out. Yeah. And so like, is that wrong? I don't know. Like, I think I needed that. But then, but then as I got older, well, then my, my dad struggles with addiction. He kind of blew up his life and it really affected me. And I saw him retire, struggle with addiction. Like, well, he was struggling with addiction, retired from work, and it kind of blew up his life. And I was like, huh, don't want to end up there. And I don't like what I'm doing for work. Don't like living in New York. Like, what, like, let's work it. I'm ready to look at this now. And it was a big shift where I was like, cool. Now my goal is not to feel everything. Be always honest. Explore all the world. It was like, what kind of life do I want? Well, I want to do what I love. I want to enjoy doing it. I want to be challenged by it. I want to build something. I want to own it. Okay. I also want to have a family. I want to be really present because like, I saw what can happen when you're not present in your struggle with addiction and seeking approval, which is why I was doing acting. So, okay, so I don't want that. I want to be present. But I want to enjoy what I'm doing. What does that look like? Like, I want to be, I want to be a good partner. I want to, I want to like, really share and listen and like get better and like push each other and like work through that. Like I, I started getting really specific because I, I've gotten a lot of data. Yeah. And I think I tried a lot of things and really put myself out there. And I was like, cool. I don't need to do that. Like, I don't need to put myself out there. I want to do this. Yeah. This is what it looks like. I think, let's go explore that. And I started just getting like, how old are you? I was like 30. Yeah. 30. Yeah. So this is a really interesting conversation, especially in the world of social media, where we're all looking at 19 year olds who've made millions of dollars and think that we should have had it figured out by now. And the recognition that in many ways, many of those 19 year olds are going to hit just hit depression earlier than us. Yeah. You know, totally. My therapist said this. He said, we all take the journey. We just don't have the journey all in the same sequence. Yeah. Yeah. But we all take the journey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we, I love playing the sliding doors game. Like, what if anyone of the auditions I had had in those first three years in New York with my big agent? Like, what if anyone had worked out? I would have instantly been known by everybody. I was like, I was auditioning for like Broadway leads, HBO TV shows, movies, like against like Idris Alba and like, what's her face? Like Sarah Doshka Park. Like, I was like, that's who those are the roles ahead. But I'd gotten any of them. What would my life have been? Totally. I would have kept going down this like, approval thing. Like, I don't even like performing. Like, what, like, but I would have been like, what everyone's saying? Like, I would have kept getting the thing I was going after that I thought I wanted, but didn't really know I was doing. Like, that would have, I would have eventually bottomed out. Like, I would have eventually gotten here. I'm convinced. I would have eventually like totally had an addiction issue or like, abusive partner or something. Like, I would have gotten there. But what's that story called? I want to read it. What's that story called? The guy, the guy's son, he like breaks his leg and then the people come to the guy's house. He's like, that sucks. And he's like, I don't know. And then the next day the military come knocking on the door and they're looking to take boys away to the army. But he can't go because he's broke his leg and they're like, that's amazing. He's like, I don't know. Yeah. What's the story? What's the story? I don't know. I love that. What's the? What's the fucking? It's so good. It's like, you don't know what's good and bad in life. Yeah, we want to place judgment over the top of our experiences. Yeah. It's like, if you would have gotten the acting part, people would have been like, that's amazing. I don't know. Yeah. But you didn't get it. That sucks. Yeah. And at the time of so confused, I was like, why am I doing this? I'm good at this. I've been going for this. And then eventually I kept asking the question. I literally, I remember so vividly being like, when did I decide I was going for this? And I couldn't remember. I never went to college being like, I want to go be a professional actor. I went because I was enjoying what I was doing. And I'll somewhere along the way, I got sidetracked by like all the like, you're so good at this stuff. Yeah. I thought it was always maybe so good. When did I pick this? I know we have this in comment. And it was like, whoa, I can't now. I now can't unsee that totally. I'm done. It was like, it was very clear. It's interesting like watching my brother go through this. He sort of seems like he's come out the other side of it now. But like, it's almost like he's, he's, been this star prodigy actor since, for I don't know how long, like unbelievable dancer that was on the West End in London, he's been Billy Elliott here, he's been in Matilda on the West End and traveled and now he's a a dance school in England. But the recognition that like that like child prodigy status, he recognized very early but didn't fully have the language for it that like, yeah, he's really good at this yet, but he's grieving the fact that he never had the chance to choose it. Yeah, yeah. It was chosen for him. And so I watched him self-sabotage and like, like for people who saw his talent and I could see what he was doing because I could see that for myself a little bit in the world of soccer, how I felt that way. But for people who couldn't see that, I'm talking people closest to him, it was really frustrating to watch him literally like sacrifice this gift for so long, but I could see that he was doing that because he was in this crisis of like, I don't give a fuck about how good I am about this thing, I feel like my life's passing me by because I'm not happy because I never chose it. Yeah, yeah, you know, totally. And it reminds me of the book. I don't know if you ever read the book open by Andrea Augustine. You'd love the book open. It's his, his, Andrea Augustine is one of the best tennis players ever. But he grew up to a father who basically chose tennis on his behalf told him he's going to become a pro tennis player. They went to the middle of nowhere in Vegas and bought a really cheap house that just had a big enough backyard so the dad could build a tennis course so he could play every day. And the first line in his memoir, Andrea Augustine, this is one of the most famous tennis players ever, the first line in his memoir, you know what it says, I hate tennis. Yeah. And the end of the book, he says something really powerful. He says, and I'm going to butcher the quote, but in essence, he says, I've come to realize that no matter what your life is, choosing it, changes everything. Yeah, totally. So he spent his whole life rebelling against this thing, but then he realized actually the moment that I choose it, yeah, inside of me, even if I don't like it, I choose it. I give myself a feeling of like there's like an authority over this thing. I own this. Yeah, totally. It's completely different. Yeah. Yeah. I want to do one more, you were going into an accent exercise. I want to do one more of those. Oh, I just think yeah, sand is good. Yeah, sand is my favorite. It gets overused. I think it's like I'm sure, I don't know, cliche or whatever, but yes, sand is a great exercise. Like how do you say like when, like just to just to see what happens of like someone suggests something, well, this isn't improv. Do you know, yes, and no, sorry, I'll sell it in improv. Rules of improv. I'm going to show the distracted. So there we go. Now I'm not distracted. Yes, the rules of improv. Have you seen an improv show? No. Do you know what improv is? Yes. Okay. We start seeing, right? And like you just like get it. You get a suggestion or whatever the reason, whatever it is. And you're like, you know, oh, hey, Joe, right? Like you're now in a scene, right? So give me an example. Like what would be a scene? So I just, so I'm now, I picked up a skill, I guess, and I'm cooking. Oh, I didn't have a clue what you would do. Yeah. What's happening? What's it? Well, oh, hey, Joe. Yeah, I'll start you off. Oh, hey, Joe. Yeah, this burger's almost ready. I've now decided. Your name is Joe. I'm cooking a burger. And so for some reason you didn't know that. Okay. I don't know. Your job is to just say yes to that idea. Okay. You're now Joe. And you, you for some reason know I'm cooking this burger. And you're, I guess, I think I've given you a bunch of information. So I could be like, make sure you put it on a gluten free bun and add avocado and egg. I'm starving. We're all out of gluten free buns. Oh, shit. Like I, I don't know where we're going. But the idea is that you, you say yes to the idea. Like, okay, are you, are you fucking serious? But I just, is that you see? I just can't, I can't, you know, I'm serious. Yeah, exactly. And now you got to go along with it. And now all of a sudden, I think this is be great. I think it will be good for you. I just want to push you a little bit, you know, like, just, just try it. But are you fucking kidding me? I'm silly. I, you know what's going to happen. Do you not remember last week? What happened when I accidentally ate gluten? No, I blocked that. I drank too much. But see, but see, this is, this is a distinction. I want to make, I said yes to everything. Now I'm sure they're in front of out there. People will be like, have notes for me. But even though I said no, I was saying yes to the idea you were proposing of like something happened last week. It was crazy. Even though I said no, I don't remember. I said because I was drinking too. I've like added to it. I've said yes and I'm adding to it. So it's, it's a, it's not just saying yes to everything, which is I think the bad version of it. But everyone like quotes is like just say yes and everything. It's just like going with it a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And just, so was I doing that? Yeah. Yeah. You nailed it. So we just together created a whole scene or whatever. We just said yes to each of those ideas. I think that's great skill. Because like, you can still, I mean, I still, like, steered some things and you still seared some things and like, it's not a way of life. Yeah. So how is that when you say that's a great skill? How do you see that skill being how awful is it when you're like in some situation? It was like, I don't know what's happening, but I'm just going to, I'm going to go with this. I'm going to contribute. Yeah. Like in business, partnerships, like when you're scared of something of being like, whoa, that's scary. But I'm saying yes and today, like, like, it does, it's not a way of life. It's not like life lesson because that's unhealthy. You should say no. And it's almost like it sounds almost like meeting someone's emotion in the in the same level of emotion that they're in. So if someone's like, let's say cats, like, I don't know where, I don't know where my shoes are. Oh my god, baby. I don't know where they are, too. Should we, should we go? Should we go? All right. I'm sorry. I'm doing the bit. Yeah. It's like, we can, like, you know what I mean? She's like, oh, brick wall, like scenes over scenes over. Fuck that. We don't want the scene to be over. Yeah. Like what we don't have toothpaste. Oh my god, we don't have toothpaste. You know what? I have sandals, right? Like whatever. Like you just use life, which is more fun. And it's we're right with kids. Like, that's all kids. Oh, you're a doctor. Now great doctor. Oh, oh, you're a blue doctor. Oh, great food. Like, I don't know what that is, but we're going to go with it. That's fun. Again, it's not a way of life. And it's like, you should definitely say no, but it is a really great skill to just be able to do to just be able at any point be like, sure. Yes. And the other parts of improv rules are, yes. And make the other person an expert at something. So I said, this is almost done. I made you an expert, right? How did you make me an expert? I don't know. For some reason, I'm needing to tell you that this is almost for some reason you're the expert at whatever it was I was doing, right? So make them the expert at something. There's other ones and I can't remember them because I wasn't as in improv as other things. But there's an interesting one. Make someone an expert. It's like someone said to me something similar. It was like, if you make someone feel like an expert, they'll often step into the role of the expert. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then it's like, it's almost like you can make someone believe so much that they're amazing, that they will actually be transformed before you ask. Totally. The other version of this, the more like normal person version, in my friend told me, is he always tries to ask people questions that he imagines. They wish people asked them. And I was like, that is so good. Like he imagined that they would say like, hey, they're like, how you doing? How was it? Like, man, what was it like being in belief or in whatever for like six weeks or 12 weeks, 14 weeks? Like, I think you have so much to say about that. Let me ask you then, what is a question that you wish someone asked you? I don't know. So many. So many? Yeah. What's the question you were someone asking? I don't know. You don't know? Yeah. What do you want? Maybe that's my goal to intuit what you, I think. Well, I think that was the point of it. The advice was like, they're then they're so pleased and tickled. And like, yeah, you should try and do it. And people were like, yeah, well, it was hard. And like, yeah, bring stuff out. And it's the same thing. It's like make them an expert. Like, be curious about them. It's just these are all, all of the things we're talking about are ways of like getting out of like here and like getting over here. Yeah. But in a way that feels like present. Yeah. Like, like, and now I'm focused on you. I'm present. I'm here. I'm engaging. I'm taking it in. I'm giving back to it. And I'm not like all in here. But I'm also not like ignoring that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of like that's, I think that's the goal, doesn't it? I think so too. But it's a journey. So where were you going? And where do you envision you would be? You mentioned before that you were in a relationship. You went back to that relationship. It wasn't really great. Then you said something else that you, that you're ready for something else and you met Jess. Where were you going? Had you not met Jess? Or how do you envision your life? Where would you be? Yeah. When I'm a Jess, I was like, I'm over it. I'm not going to find someone. I'm not good at this. I just stopped trying to like, I was yeah. Which I think is what I needed to be honest or to be open to. Yeah. I was like, I'm done. Like, I'm probably just going to be alone or I'm going to have these weird like, trists and the ventures and like, that's just my life and that's cool. Like, I just said kind of giving up a little bit. So you're just like, for ever going to be maybe singing a little, having a few songs like whatever, you know, I had just given up. Which is probably helpful. I think I was like, I was like, yeah, giving up is not, it's not too far removed from surrender or yeah, acceptance. Yeah. So I think I had just surrendered a little bit. I had changed careers. I was freelance It's pretty interesting for some agencies in New York. as a producer and in a video, which is what I'd done my whole life growing up just for fun. And so after when I was like, I don't like performing, well, what do I like? I was like, I don't know. And then after I was like, oh yeah, I've been like producing things for video, like my whole life, I love that. People would probably pay me to do that. And then I got a job. Okay. So I was doing that. So I probably would have probably would have kept going down that route. I don't know if I would have ended up here. We moved here because her family's in England and my family's in California. And we were in New York. So we're like, let's pick one. She didn't want to live in England. So we picked the one that's got this weather and this close to family. So I don't, I've no idea. I don't know where I'd be like, well, play the thing. I've been probably been producing something. I can't imagine where I didn't start my own company at some point. But it so easily could have been East Coast. I think in some level, I kind of always knew I'd come back California. It's hard to imagine something else because I feel at this point in my life, like I'm really appreciative of all that journey. And I feel like that chapter from like those chapters I've been talking about, like kind of came to a head with like my dad's addiction thing and our family kind of blowing up a little bit. And like I started going to therapy like once a week. I was like, I want to change this. This isn't working. I am unhappy, but my life is great now. I have a beautiful wife. I live in California. I love my job. But I'm unhappy. So I'm going to therapy every day. And like that was such a watershed shift, like watershed moment or big shift that it's hard for me to imagine any other outcome because it feels to me like that was all trying to get me here. And now I'm in this new explosion. I'm like, cool. Now I have kids and like it's this whole like new thing. So it's hard to imagine it thing any other way. When you said, I started going to therapy once a week. One of the places that I wanted to go was you started therapy really young. It did, yeah. How will we? I was just talking to my mom about this. I have a memory of my mom dropping me off of this therapist and she has a memory of waiting outside. The therapist I have now actually. And the same therapy. Yeah, but I had other therapists in between. But yeah, she's amazing. Her name is Sandy. But I don't know how old. But I had to have been six or seven because she started seeing her around six or seven. But it's confusing because like that, like I did my Myers-Briggs, I don't know, four or five. Like I knew it was an introvert. I knew the concept of being an introvert like a very young age because it was just in her house. So would you say that, wow, this is so many places I want to go with this. Do it. Like the first thing I want to ask is, would you say that those labels have freed you or confined you? I know. I don't know. It's kind of a chicken or an egg thing for me, especially seeing River. Like because as I get more older, I'm more and more extroverted. I'm very outgoing and I have less self-consciousness. However, like I'm growing. So like, I don't know, it's a chicken or the egg thing for me. I think it gave me a lot of tools, really young, but it also made, well, okay, I'm still down for a second. I came out wired differently. My, oh this is the thing you said you wanted to ask me. I went to a specialist when I was in second or third grade because my mom said I kept coming home saying I hate school. I'm having a miserable time. I hate school. I hate school. I hate school. And then she got my report card and it was all A's. And she was like, what? That doesn't make any sense. So they sent me to a specialist who I did all these funky tests. Like, they'd tell me a story and I'd tell it back to them. They'd have me read a story. I'd tell it back to them. They'd tell me a story. I'd have a write it back to them. They'd like, did all these tests on how I learned? And they basically assessed like, okay, he's super visual. He's not auditory. His emotional intelligence or like his emotional capacity is that of a 33 year old on our metrics. But he's got the brain of a seven year old. That's going to be confusing for him. They've like laid out all these results for it. It's kind of amazing. They laid out all these results for her to be like, hey, this is what's going on in this kid. He's got some strengths, some weaknesses. And this is where he's at. This is probably why he's unhappy and like confused and you're confused and how to support him. So why was I saying that? So, so I think it gave me a measure of like, they told me like, this is the results you got. And it helped knowing like, okay, I have some emotional stuff going on. That's like, I'm not old enough yet to be able to use properly and that's going to be a journey for me. And I just knew that. And I think that was nice. But it did give me a narrative early of like, I have some things that aren't right or whatever the narrative would have been to a seven year old. So it's like, it's like both. I wouldn't change it. But because it really helps later when I was like in middle school and wanting to like, really talk to people and getting like bullied. I'm like, what? Oh, right. I'm probably just a little different here. Yeah. It reminds me of us. There's a story. These tapes I'm listening to called the Alchemy of Initiation of Francis Weller. It talks a lot about grief and grief being many things. But one of them is what we never received. Yeah, grieving what we never received. The love we never received. And he talks about this story of a tribe he went to visit. And there was this young girl probably in. She was like 18 or 19 in her late teens. And she had this big scar on her face. But she was really happy and joyful. And he asked the people in the community. It was like a tribe. They all gathered around one another. It was like a tribe that had maintained its culture, the rich culture. And he asked the community, people of the community, what happened? Because she's so joyful. How is she so joyful? Like she's got in Western culture, the beer kit, that kid would be so insecure. But she wasn't. She was so vibrant in her life. And they told him that her mom had had a rage fit one day and threw boiling water on him. And the whole community gathered around her and said to her, this is not your fault. It's not amazing. And as a result, that pain didn't internalize and become something that it wasn't. So she doesn't internal up to that scars. And as I'm hearing you describe that story of your own experience in the absence of the validation that maybe you're more intelligent or that being different is not a bad thing. That could have easily become an additive that there's something wrong with me, which speaks to an event is not bad or good, only thinking makes it so. Yeah, total. Yeah, I loved it. First of all, the tests were really fun because I like brain stuff like that. But I think it was really helpful for me. And it helped my family because like my brother so different than me. And like he knew that like I was like I'm different. I think things differently. And I have this letter that just referenced. I have this letter that this it like pays dividends like decades later because I have this letter that my mom gave me when I moved back here. I'm in my 30s. I'm in a much different place. I'm doing this therapy thing. She's like, Oh, I have this box of yours. I go through this box. And it's got all the questions my dad had written down. I've written growing up. And I'm like, I was asking that that is I've just been like this. Yeah. Okay. That was cool. And then there was a letter that my mom wrote to the specialist being like, Hi, like we want to do this for our kid because he's just different than us. We love him. But we don't know. We don't get him. And like we want to understand how to support him. And like why he is like this and like help. And it is, I wish I could find it. It's somewhere in my house. It is beautiful. I read it because I was like, wow, that is like first of all, I'm so lucky to have a parent who is like, we don't understand our kid. Like please help us. That is talk about like she's a woman. She's feminine. She's like the most like she's like motherly like gentle soul. That is so strong. Absolutely. To be like, I don't know what's going on. I just want to help him. I can't think of anything. That's like, I mean, is that that masculine? Like I don't know. She went out and like sought a solution. And was like, this is the one I want. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. And that's really, that's, I mean, for me hearing that the number of parents that would try and manipulate the behavior of the child so that the child can fit within the context of the parent's comfort level. Yeah. It is insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your mum didn't make you the problem. She didn't make her the problem. Yeah. It's like that. What's that saying about enlightenment? It's like something like the beginner blames you. Yeah. Something like the pro blames himself. Right. But the N.L.I. and blames no one. Yeah. Totally. Totally. And I will never know. But I think it informed my whole family and our whole family dynamic about me and my relationship to the world outside our family. And like my dad saying, well, he just thinks of it differently. Like who's to say that's not directly tied to that result from the test in second grade? Like that happened when I was 18. That's the beginning. But like, I mean, that's the through line. I mean, they really supported me there. And I'm so thankful. And then I just have that. Like I grew up talking about like, well, you learn differently. You're a visual learner. Now I just know that. I know that's even a concept that there's different types of learning through school and now. Like that, that kind of, that is amazing. I'm so lucky. And I can't imagine a world where I don't understand things like introvert extrovert. Like, you know, you have what you're presenting to me, but what you're experiencing. Like, like, most people don't know that. And it sounds like in the absence of knowing that, that can ease that also can easily become come to something wrong with me, it's like no, no, no, you just don't learn that way. - Totally. - How do you feel about this in relation to the studies that are coming out about boys at school, sitting in chairs for as long as they are when they're supposed to be outside moving? - Yeah, I love this stuff because like, boys have more testosterone. So like, they're gonna need to move more. And like, I have a daughter and a boy. I have a daughter and a son. And like, they're so different. They could not be more different. - Yeah. - And like, maybe that's just their personalities. Like, like, like, Oliver would like always have a hard time, like, like physically pushing something to open it. She'd like kind of touch the button and tap it. And River's like, bam. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Dude, yeah. Or he will literally bang open my office door and go, hi. (laughing) Okay. Welcome to my office. He's so cute, but he's a boy. Oliver's also very cute. But she kind of like, screeches at open. And she like sees me and waits until I connect with her. And then that's an invitation to come in. And she goes to my dad. But she like wants to look at me in the eyes and get like, I love that. But it's very different. - So it is. - So yeah, I mean, Justin, get any of that stuff. And she tells me about her education. I'm like, oh my God, of course. No, why don't you think you're stupid? She thinks she's so stupid. It's like you're brilliant. You just, you weren't, no one told you that hey, you might learn a certain way. - Yeah. - That sucks. Especially for boys who like have a lot culturally, there's a lot of different things about men in general, which are earned and not earned. And like, that's going to be really confusing to be like, okay, wait, so I'm supposed to be not aggressive because this woman says I'm supposed to be not aggressive. But like, I feel aggression just like in my blood. So like, what am I supposed to do with that? Well, like me with the Christian. Like, I don't want to shame that boy. So let's use it. Like where are you going to put it? Like, let's use it for good or whatever. I have everyone to phrase it. Like, let's shape it. Let's make it specific and precise. Like instead of just like blanketing the walls with anger. Like let's like, let's like focus that like a lazy beam. Like that's way more cool than like W and K. - I know exactly what you mean. - I know. - Because that anger's going to come out somewhere, right? - It will. It'll come out really. - It will, it'll come out really. - Yeah, it comes out. I think for a lot of men, it comes out maybe in certain ways. But one of the most prominent ways is like in an intimate setting. And this is where sexual abuse becomes a big problem. - True. - Because maybe initially there was consent. But then the man has all this unprocessed anger inside of him. And now he's dominating a woman to the point that it's not safe. - And he totally, and like what models did he have growing up with the men and the women in their life that he like thinks is normal? - Yeah. - And like God modeling is everything. Like they really, like so if they, if this boy only saw this one type of male female model at home or that man with his female friends or whatever, our co-workers, like that's what they think is the option. - Everything. - Yeah. - Like yeah. What are the biggest things that would be taught you that you think everyone needs to know? - Probably that. Just taking a deep breath sometimes. And like let it, oh, oh, oh. My big turn was for here responsive. I'm super, super responsive. My big thing was when I finally, I was 30 or whatever, and stuff was growing my family and I'm gonna happy. I went to therapy every day, every week. The very first thing she said was we're not gonna fix anything. The first thing we're gonna work on is just calming down. Anytime you feel like, well, first of all, recognize that you're adrenaline's taking over. Your body's flooding with cortisol, which makes you very effective. Got it, great. So you're in action mode, you're cortisol's up, you're ready to go and go do things or say. And when you, just first of all, let's notice that, that's happening. Okay, great, now that you're getting used to noticing that, if the only thing we're gonna do, she's calmed down. Then you can address whatever the problem is. And for every reason, that was so not obvious to me. Until she was like, I was ready to hear it. I was like, my life, I'm upset. I'm depressed, I don't know why, my life's great. Like I've done everything right, quote unquote, like to like adjust from all my circumstances, like why am I so unhappy? And she was like, well, let's just first learn to calm down. And it was like, okay, okay, I was so mad. I was like, I want like a solution. I want like a fucking like go do this. And I was like, no, like just learn to calm down first. And like for me and my physiological, whatever, all this stuff in here, it was like that was game changing. Just calm down. And then we can address it. I'm still so bad at it, but it like changed everything. So then it was like, okay, now we're calming down. Like now to talk about that. Or now let's do something about that. Like it doesn't have to be like fixed right away. You don't have to go do something. It's like like made space for other stuff to happen. I just wasn't allowing it. That was the biggest like for me. Yeah, I almost feel like from the place of calming down, you now have the opportunity to Peter Cron talks about the distinction between unconscious reactivity versus conscious creativity. Yeah, it's like when you calm down, you now have an opportunity to be consciously creative in your choosing a way of being versus most people who are operating from a place that is unconscious reactivity. Yeah, yeah, it's funny because I was just thinking about this the other day of like I do a lot of creative, we run a video production company. So I do a lot of creative work of like storyboards, but there's like deadlines and like, I need to do three storyboards speaking. And I'm like, I love that though. And for whatever reason, I found a temple of like, cool, I'm going to do a storyboard in this hour. And like I'm happy with the work I do. And I was just kind of thinking about that of like how much I've grown there. And I was like, why is that? But I think that's what you're talking about. I'm like, I'm not, I'm less like reacting to like shit. This thing and I need to be good. And it's more just like cool. My goal is to sell this story and sell this product. How am I going to get there? And like, it's a completely different experience. Totally. Yeah, you're not reacting against the deadline. You're creating within the context of what you want to build. Yeah. And I still have the stresses of deadlines. I'm still like, all those things like that's not, you know? Yeah, I don't know. CBD on that one, I've still thinking about that. Give me one or two more because most people they never afforded the opportunity to have a safe space like therapy. What do you wish people knew that therapy is talking about? There's a lot of different types. And there's a lot of different therapists. And you might not get the perfect fit right away. And if you go to therapy once, like, and you didn't like it, that doesn't mean you don't like therapy. It means you don't like that therapist. Yeah, yeah. And that's different. Like, I'm trying to think of an example of like, it's like eating a cheeseburger and being like, I don't like burgers. Maybe you had McDonald's, like, I don't know. Some people love McDonald's, but maybe you had McDonald's. Have you tried, like, Tanner's? And man, I'm starving for a burger. We're getting hungry because of this thing. That's why I think about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's the whole different thing. So, like, I did one that was like about, like, imagination work and this cool thing that was helpful. But, like, not long-term, it was really good for a certain period, and it was in a child therapy and somatic experience, and that's such a good point. Like, just because you don't have a good experience, doesn't mean you don't like therapy. It means you don't like the therapist. Yeah, going along with this that I feel really passionate about is it's like an oil change. Like, we like, we go check our cholesterol. We go, like, check our ears and nose. We like, we go to the gym. Like, do we do anything for a brain? Like, like, thinking of it, like, why not get tools? Like, like, what's the, like, why not? Just like, if the tool's there and there's someone who's like, she's like more of like a, like a, sometimes she's a business coach. Like, this, like, who knows where, like, you don't know what you're gonna talk about, like, I don't know, it's a cool, why not just use it as a tool? Like, do a check up and like, just see what happens. Or like, change the oil, like, yeah. Yeah, and how has it been conducive? Just give me, give me, in 90 seconds, how has it been conducive for a powerful relationship? It's so nice, because she doesn't know us. There's no, like, social fallout for, like, me sharing with my therapist that, like, I was mad at my wife, like, because a lot of times, like, a friend's gonna be like, I was mad at my wife. And then you never hear the resolution. Totally. She's just like, fuck, that guy's wife. Yeah, that guy's wife. That guy's wife. That guy's wife. That's not fair. Totally. She's fair, like, she's probably lovely. And he probably fucked up somewhere too, but he needed to talk it out. So there's, like, no social fallout. And, like, I can be honest and get tools of, like, dude, this thing is happening. Like, but, and I keep getting so annoyed about it because of this, and I think this, like, can you help me? Like, I just, like, help me, like, with these things. And she's got no skin in the game. She, like, understands, like, well, you know, the first couple of years of, like, having kids. You're kind of like cavemen being like, okay, here's my tribe. Look at these other tribes doing, and you're creating your rules. Oh, so that's like a thing. That makes sense, yeah. Well, okay, great. Now, I don't feel guilty for, like, watching everyone with their kids, being like, you know, who's, like, totally, I'm not doing that. That's just a normal thing. Like, I don't know. Yeah, that's, that's, that's another good one. So it, it, and then, and then I get to bring those tools and practice them and see how it goes. And then she goes to hers. Sometimes we go together and like, I don't know. Why not? Like, you know what I mean? Instead of just being like, I'm a miserable, she doesn't like me. She's always nagging at me or whatever the, the narrative is and just being like, that's it. Yeah. Like, I don't want that. I want to go past that. It's gonna be on that. That's more about, see, but see me that reads this masculine. But like, it doesn't fit people, right? Like, do you want to like, go, like, let's go with that. (laughing) I don't know. I don't know if I have to sub surely, but what is something man. Most people care about the "you don't". Like, what is something that matters to most people? It's not important to you. That's really hard. Why am I having a hard time with that question? I mean, I think I said earlier, like, I'm not trying to only be happy. I'm looking for like, I don't know if it's like joy, like, there's like, I'm looking for more than just like, I'm not. And I don't know. I feel like I see a lot of people who are like, they're like, what they're going for is like, they're seeking like, happiness, like, good things. And I'm not. I'm looking for like, I want to know me. I want to be like, satisfy, like, I want it to be like, joy coming out, like, as opposed to like, finding fun, good things. Now, there's a trap there of like, not finding fun, good things. Like, I need to do that. But, and I do do that and just helps me with that a lot. She's really good at finding just things that are fun. It's where we're a good partnership. Yeah. Because I do the opposite for her. I've like, yeah, but what's going on? But that's something that I've just never been interested in. I'm not necessarily like looking to feel good all the time. That's probably the one that comes to mind first, but that's a hard question. Even the word satisfaction is an interesting one. Yeah. Mind me. A mentor mindset to me, that the modern man is no longer in pursuit of success. He's in pursuit of peace. I thought about that because I think what I'm learning is peace doesn't, I think I thought peace looks like getting to the top of the mountain and being like, yeah, it's not, I mean, peace is climbing the mountain and being like, it's just a sweet climb. That's a huge shift for me. Oh, what a statement. That's a big shift for me. I think that's what I was trying to say earlier. That's so hard to do. Just as I was reminding me like, hey, I know it's stressful, this phase of business around, but look around. It's pretty cool. That's right. It's pretty cool. All right. I asked Jess yesterday, if you could tell David only one thing, what would you say? What was your response was, you're already doing it. I was going to guess, you're doing great as well as going to guess. Yeah. She said, you're already doing it. She's so right. She said he's often, and I am too, I'm an, but just somewhere for a language, but it was in the vein of like, thinking that you're not there yet, but she was like, you're already doing it. Like, look, look around. Yeah. You're doing it. Just back to our mask and feminine conversation we're having of like, the masculine trait is they're like, go hunt, go get the thing, but the feminine trait is they're like, we're doing it all together and we're in this community and I, and like, that's important. That's where that real joy comes from is both, right? Like, you're on the hunt, but like, you're on the hunt together, you know, we're doing it. I do have a heart. Sometimes I forget. I get so in the hunt, I smell the blood in the water, I'm going after it, and I just forget. I want to finish me with something that I'm so fascinated by because I'm not there yet, but even just merely at the thought that alone the reality of it, I could get emotional, which is the thought of having a son. Jess actually sent me a photo of you and a photo of River and the similarities are just, it's pretty crazy. So you? Yeah. Yeah. And River. I know. It's pretty wild. It's also me next to him. Yeah. She's holding, yeah. Tell me about being a dad to a boy. It's pretty cool. I'm glad I did it second, not first. I wanted a son. I want to be careful because he's not me. So I want to always remember that, like he's his own person, but I'm going to be a great resource for him because we are very similar, but it's, oh my gosh, it's so fun. I think of the things my dad did to me and he said a lot when I was younger, like he had very specific things. He was like, my parents didn't do X, Y or Z. So I'm doing that for my kids. And I remember him being so like he was such, talk about intentional, like so intentional a lot of stuff. And I think about that with him a lot of like, okay, I got a bunch of good things. I got some things I wish I had. He's like me a lot is temperate wise. So what can I give him, like, how can I help him with that? How can I coach him? And like he'll like climb and fall over and like hurt his face and like crime and like I pick him up and hold him, say down, he thinks it's funny while he's like half crying and I'm just like, I get you. Like I get it. I get you. And like, like that's going to be my role is like, yeah, nothing, there's nothing to fix here. I understand. That is great. There's the all the like falling over, the trying, the like probably doing something you shouldn't have been doing, the like the crying, there's nothing to fix here. There's no correction to be made, there's no comment to be made, it's just enjoying it. And like I can not wait to give him that as he grows up of like, do you think helping me draw it? So powerful. Would you say that that is the theme of your life, there's nothing to fix it. Yeah. It sounds like we started this conversation talking about your role in Christianity, which is all about fixing and everything you've done since has been in therapy, what sticks out to you as your therapist saying, let's go to start with this, there's nothing, we're not going to fix anything, which is, let's just calm down, acting, it's not about fixing, let's just try it. Get it on, do it the wrong way, river, it's nothing to fix here. It sounds like that's a, that's a big theme for you. Yeah. Well, that's really cool. I agree with that. I agree with that. How nice is that? What a lesson. Yeah. Same with like our business, like we're always trying to go and push it in and it's so hard and it's like, it's great, it's, it's exactly what it needs to be like. Was it you or Jessica was telling me that you were having a business conversation the other day and you stopped in the middle of conversation, you were talking about growth and then in the middle of the conversation, you stopped and like, wait, do we actually want to grow? Yeah, I just, just not have this conversation where we're like, what, what, how much bigger do we want to be and we were like, actually not that much, like maybe like one or two more people. Yeah. That's kind of it. That's, that's cool. Like, I, I don't know, just, we're not taught that. So. No, we're not. Like, that's not obvious. We live in a culture that is fixed. Yeah. Even in French as well, when he talks about grief, it's like, like grief is how we, how our soul alchemizes pain and moves through it. It's a valid experience yet. In our Western culture, the response would be going to do something to fix it, which implies that there's something wrong with it. Yeah. Yeah. So what if the whole experience, there was nothing wrong with the experience? Yeah. Yeah. And this goes back to like the thing that I think is different that you said like what's something that you feel like you don't agree with that people. Yeah. Like when my, my kids cry, like I don't, I don't naturally think of that as like, I must make them stop. I must help them so they stop crying. They're upset. They're upset about something. I wonder what they're upset about. Yeah. And I get curious. Inquiry. Yeah. Like, because that's what I watched. People were dead to me. Yeah. Yeah. What is that about? Like, what are you exploring? Are you thinking about? And instead of being like, you know, it's okay. Don't cry. Totally. Like calm down. And in doing that, I didn't learn to calm down. Yeah. Well, this is teaching me so much, me like if the big, the biggest thing that I'm taking from this is like, wow, what a spiritually enlightening and profound lesson. Like if someone now was to ask me, what is something that you would share with the world in one sentence? I think I'd say that. Just from this conversation, there's nothing to fix. Yeah. Yeah. You're on your journey. Yes. I mean, they want to be clear, like, I was not happy. Like, there was stuff I was exploring, but that's it, like it did it, like I didn't, you know, like, I just, I don't know, I just remember being in my 20s when I got to figure this out. Yeah. But even your therapist is like, the calming down, it sounds like is the being with it. Yeah. The being with it is the figure, it is going to figure itself out when you can be with it. You see, like, oh, my, like, if you notice, like, oh shit, my toes cut off, like, you're not going to ignore that, like, but that also means it doesn't mean you have to be like, I must fix my tongue. Yeah. Fix my toe. Like, I don't know. Once you notice something, you can't unsee it. So, like, it will bother you until you do something about it. And if you're present enough, it will. will happen. But if you keep being numb to it, you'll just stay there forever. So it's kind of counterintuitive. It's the same what you resist persist, right? You're just going to continue and continue and continue and continue. It's really cool. But it demands to be felt, pain demands to be felt. You got to. It's something. You got to. And sometimes it's good to calm down. Yeah. If you, if everything that you've ever said to your son, it's going to be my last question. If everything you ever said to your son was removed, everything you had the chance to say to him was removed. And you had 60 seconds to tell him anything. And that 60 seconds were encapsulated what he takes with him for the rest of his life, understanding what you know now. What would you say to him? Son, if I would say. It could say like, I workshop some stuff. I think I would say you get to decide for yourself, like what this looks like for you, like what being a man looks like, what? Like who you want to be? Like you get to decide for yourself that. Like if anyone says otherwise, like tell us something, you get to decide. But that leaves out like also like, you know, enjoy the right basically. Like it's going to be up and down. And like, that's part of the fun. And it's not going to be forever. Nothing lasts. So enjoy the right. Find more enjoyment. That was that was the other shift that happened in my 30s when I started going to therapy. It was like, yeah, but like what do you like? Are you are you enjoy it? Like like what what makes you feel good? Like what what does make you happy? Like don't forget like, you know what I mean? Yes, it is both. I'm not enjoying it. What are you doing? The things you enjoy? Well, yeah. What do you like enjoy? Like you do it. Do that. So I like enjoy it. Like, I don't know. Make sense of my brain. I don't know if that makes sense. I love that. What do I enjoy it? Yeah. See? This is what I mean. Make sure to enjoy it. Enjoy it. But not like make sure to enjoy it. Just like yeah. This is it. Like enjoy the ride. But you get to decide what that ride is. Yeah. I like that. I'll take that. That's my answer. What a way to end it. It's just fun. Thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for asking me. It's a lot to me. Really fun.