#005: Breaking Relationship Blocks with Vienna Pharaon

Hi, I'm Mark Groves and welcome to my podcast where we explore human psychology and how it is that us humans connect, what makes us better lovers and partners and friends. We're going to have psychology under the microscope, so please be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to these podcasts. You never miss one. And also visit my website at www.markgroves.tv/television. Welcome to this episode of the Mark Groves podcast where I have special guest, Yena Farron. I was going to call you Faroon, but I didn't want to do that today. I appreciate it. The very serious podcast that we have going on today. Right. I've gotten much more professional. Yena Farron is one of my best friends and he also happens to be a marriage of family therapist in Manhattan. They say the best place to hide a dead body is on page two. So I have so much love for this woman that you are about to hear all of the wisdom that pours out of her soul. Amazing writer. She's Mindful MFT on Instagram. Her and I have done many events together. We are the co-producer makers, creators of relationships 101, which is a really amazing workshop, which is weird because I just self-title. It's like I just called myself a guru. It's an amazing workshop where we look at all of the things that you need to know about relationships. But so we're going to talk about that stuff. So welcome. Thank you, Mark. Happy to be here. So. What's happening? I will say more. Let me talk to you just a little bit. You are a great podcast producer and I'm pumped to be on the show. No, but I'm very excited to see where our conversation goes today. So thanks for having me. No problem. I'm excited to finally get you on here. And I want. So in your work as a marriage of family therapist in New York, part of New York's culture, which really kind of fascinated me when I first met you was, and by the way, guys, a metter on Instagram, super tight game. Since we got introduced because we were writing similar things by one of the Anna's friends. And when I first went to New York and we met, I was really fascinated by New York's culture that there is really sort of this therapy culture. It was very different than other places. When you go to places like, I don't know, maybe my experience because I grew up in Calgary, which is kind of like the Texas of Canada is like therapy. Why would we go to that? We're not broken. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's definitely much more received here. A lot of people have their own therapist. A lot of people go to their couple therapy and their individual therapy. So yeah, I mean, it's something that people, not everybody, but a lot of people do speak openly about it. They say, how I'm going to dinner or I'm going to therapy before dinner or going to therapy before getting my nails done or my massage. It's not something that everybody hides here. There's less of a stigma attached to it than maybe in some other places, which is nice because I think that people see the value in therapy and there's a confidence about it. This is just a part of their overall wellness and that it doesn't mean that there has to be something terribly wrong going on in your life. Which is such the common part of, you know, I, I mean, I usually see in couples where it's like when things, when shit has really hit the fan and they're almost at this place of man hard to recover from, that that's when they seek this outside, you know, objective counsel when, you know, and we have really created this thought, like, why would I need to see like this idea and relationship and I love that from Eric from, you know, the philosopher and the psychologist who said we, like, there's no other thing we fail at more in life than love. And yet we don't seek to become experts. Yeah. I think that the research shows that couples come to couple therapy about four years too late. My gosh. So, you know, it's like, it's, it's so important. I do hear people, even sort of an extension of what you were just saying where people say, like, well, the couple's coming to couples therapy and they're not even married yet. Like, don't you think that, that, like, says something and obviously they're, they're, they're insinuating that maybe they ought not to get married. And if they're having problems already pre-marriage, then that should be something that tells them to get the heck out of there. And, you know, certainly that, that may be the case where a relationship is, is, is off. But a lot of times people are actually coming in to do preventative work and they're actually taking care of their relationship in a way that, that many people should be. Yeah, it's almost inspiring because we certainly have all known couples who never went to that therapy before their wedding. And everyone's like, man, they should not be getting married. They should have seen a therapist first. Yeah. When you observe couples that are newly getting married, there is, you know, I think there is often a stigma that says you shouldn't be scared when you're getting married. But I was like, how are people not scared when they're about to have a kid, when they're about to, you know, on some level have some fear would seem normal in your experience working with couples. What does that look like for you? Where does the shift come? You're saying like the anticipation of marriage coming in? Like we often say like, well, if you're not super excited, like there's no fear to walk down the aisle, then you must, if they must not. Yeah. I mean, I think that people have tons of stories about what happens when you get married. Right. We've got this idea that, you know, you have the honeymoon phase and then it's over or that once you get married, you know, the sex is going to drop off the face of the earth. Or there's so many stories that we have around how relationship changes once you walk down the aisle and tie the knot. And you know, those stories are, I mean, whether you can say, hey, this is a true story or a not true story, it's a story that hasn't even happened to you yet. It's not to see, you know, like it's, it's not to say that there aren't any marriages where sex has, has fallen off once somebody's gotten married. Obviously that's happened before. But it hasn't happened to you yet. So this, this sense that we're sort of subscribing to a story and creating an outcome for ourselves before we even do it is really faulty and it's, and it's dangerous because it can oftentimes create it. We oftentimes prescribe it for ourselves. And we start to do the research gathering. How have we disconnected? Why are we not having sex five times a week anymore? Yeah. You like start talking into Google like how many couples stop having sex the night after they get married? My God. For a lot of people, that's when they start. Well, good for them. But yeah, it's a take that in and see what comes up. Well, I think that's such an interesting aspect though of relationship that, you know, you hear about how they work or let's say, you know, I hear a lot of people say, well, I'm not getting married. I've seen them and I'm like, just redefine the word. You know, you can define marriage however you want, but it's based on a marriage definition that you have that you do not want it. You know, it's very different to have this systems part of marriage, which is the like getting, you know, whatever it is, the official to say you are married and to go to the court and all that versus what are the agreements our relationship has and how are we defining our own marriage? You know, and so in your experience, do you actually see couples create agreements prior to walking down the aisle? Yeah. Like vows are pretty, but vows really like till death, it was part. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So there can be but there is beautiful value in vows. Yeah, there is. You know, there really is. I mean, I really loved the one you should obey and honor your man. That was a good one. Just kidding. Just kidding for all those feminists out there. I love you all. Aren't you a feminist? I am. I am. So I, yes. So the short answer is yes. I see people make agreements and I do think, you know, there is a space to certainly honor our vows, but I think one of the things that I work on with couples is the acceptance that really all we have kind of control and understanding of is right now. You know, we can think about, you know, this is what I hope to do. I, and I want to be able to give this to you. And based on the person I am, the based on the person I know myself to be, right, my value system, how committed I am, how committed I've been in the past, who I am today, like what this part brings forward from this space. This is what I am telling you that I am committing to. This is what I'm telling you that I believe. And it's from that space that we are making these promises. But I think what we've seen happen time and time again is that, is that people change. You know, things happen in a, in life that pivot relationships and people. And oftentimes the person we once married is, is different. Oftentimes who we are when we marry someone is different in 20 years and five years and in 17 years. And what I tell people is good. We ought to be growing, right? I always say. the version of who I am today should be the worst version of myself that you see. Oh God, isn't that beautiful? If we're going downhill, then we got some problems. Yeah, but that like, you know, if I'm doing my part and I'm constantly growing and I'm moving, then this really should be the most unavolved version of myself that you ever get, right? Now, granted, things happen, right? Trauma's happen, losses happen, there's a lot of stuff that gets thrown our way. It doesn't, it doesn't tend to get easier as the years go by. And so the commitment tends to be to growth. I promise you that I will do my best to check in with myself day in and day out. I promise you to continue to grow. I promise, you know, like those types of promises are ones that I think we can generally, you know, tuck in. And I think you were the person who told me about friends of yours who do this kind of biennual. The semi-general general meeting. The annual general meeting. Not from her parents. It's great. I mean, because I think that that's and it can happen more often because that's what brings us back to center. This idea of like, okay, how am I doing as a partner? How are we doing as a couple? What are our own individual and relational goals as we move forward here? What did we reach and accomplish this past these past six months? You know, that check-in is so important to maintain because to promise Vows, you know, one day intended to really not check in at all for the rest of time. It's like, it's kind of crazy. And they were shocked that the ships went in different directions. You know, and that's I mean, you speak to such an important aspect of like, it's hard enough to navigate one human life. Let alone navigate to and keep them in the same direction. In some sense and to maintain our own individuality and our own dreams and our own purposes and identities and have the relationship, have its own. Yeah. Well, you let too much air in if you don't come together often to check yourselves. And that's the problem is like, when too much air gets in, you're really living such separate lives and you're not bringing much forward to oftentimes ourselves, but most of the time each other. And so so much is getting internalized. And there's so much distress that the couple system is facing that's not ever being acknowledged and labeled processed through and moved out. And that's, you know, when we do that for for too long, there really can be so much space within the system that it just crashes and burns. One, just so we don't confuse people, the AGM that I'm talking about is some friends who every six months they meet and they write out what they meet, they're married, but they they go for dinner. But don't see each other for six months, but then they see each other. This is why they're doing so well. Yeah. So they they they create their own goals separately, not together on write it out. And then they go to dinner and they have this AGM where they go to like a beautiful dinner and they I love the name they gave it. And then they end each other their goals for the next six months as individuals and as a couple. And then they read each others goals out loud for the first time as they're reading it, they read it out loud. And then they create a plan to meet those goals the best they can with compromise and all those things so they can navigate together as a couple of both people's needs are being met and the couples needs are being met. And it's such a you're right. I mean, it's such a beautiful ritual and it you know one that we you and I talk about at relationships one-to-one every once in a while is the idea of like checking in like you were saying like on a scale of one to ten like how am I doing as a partner. Right. And one thing that I found really interesting with that is when I do that with Kai, I'll be like how am I doing as boyfriend and scale one to ten and it's like um and oh my gosh, it you know I got that. And it's like you're an eight and you know I've probably been less than eight but the really amazing part is when she then tells me what would make me a ten because I don't know what I don't know. You know and to be like really open to this feedback for our partners to tell us how to love them and how to be a better partner and it makes me think of that uh Harval Hendrix how he says instead of asking are saying you know I'm not getting what I need from my relationship it's asking ourselves what does my relationship need for me. Yeah absolutely. Which is such a shift. It is. And I think that the space that gets created when you do something like this really sets the it does set the environment to succeed because a lot of times when people bring certain things forward their partner isn't actually ready to hear it and they are either caught off guard or there's a defensiveness that comes forward and when you have this set in motion you know that you are receiving information and it's not that it doesn't sting to hear that you're an eight although Mark I mean an eight is is pretty decent. That's not bad. I was like an eight and student so that feels right now. I feel like you just doubled that number. Right. I just what I do is I take the true math and I multiply by two. Oh huh. Like yeah because that doesn't really add up but no I mean I think it's it's yeah it doesn't it doesn't necessarily burn any less but you're prepared and you've agreed to hear this feedback and in doing so the message that you send to each other is that this feedback matters to me and is important to me and I want to do something about this feedback and that is really that's a great recipe you know that like that really sets space for a couple to succeed and and hear each other feel listen to feel heard feel connected and feel honored. When I feel like it steers the ships the best we can you know together and in that sense it's like you were saying the idea that couples come to there before years late or even this part in relationship where we don't what was it label the things and then what was the term that you use like in the couple when they have conflict. Label like knowledge like you're not even talking about it you know it's sort of like yeah I don't know if I'm not I mean I it's so if people understand this from a corporate culture perspective that things that happen in a company affect the corporate culture and often those things are being talked about by the water cooler or the coffee machine and not by the company and the same is so true for relationships is that below the below the surface of the relationship is what's the true connection and those little things that we don't talk about and clear you know they become the the ways we don't text back or we pull away when our partner goes to touch us. Right. You know in such an important part of the intimacy piece is actually feeling fully heard and seen. Yeah yeah I mean it's where it's where we start building up our threshold for negativity right so when we do these types of things or what we agree is that whenever there's something that's bothering either one of us we bring it forward it we're lowering our negativity threshold and something that again we talk about in relationships 101 but most a lot of people believe that if they can brush things off if they if they like let the small stuff go if they don't argue much and they try not to be irritating or nag that they have a better relationship and the research shows us that when we drop our negativity threshold that we don't let the negativity build up if we drop the negativity threshold and we start labeling and acknowledging what we're experiencing and we move it out and we say like hey you know this bothered me today or it I felt really let down that you didn't show up for my event or you know whatever it is like then it comes forward it comes out the other person is able to hear it yeah the tricky part is obviously if we're in a dynamic that has a hard time communicating but if we are in a dynamic where communication is pretty strong then that negativity is acknowledged it's honored and then it's moved out and it no longer kind of takes up space energetically in our system right what about in those relationships though where you know like we were saying and what happens when you know you get married at 20 yeah like heat if I got man if any of my ex-girlfriends are listening they're like he never asked me how he was doing as a boyfriend out of 10 where the fuck was not what we were saying I didn't because the former version of myself I am happy to say is a lesser version than I am today but as we grow and expand you know I was gonna say I'm blessed to not be married to the person I am at 20 but that's not true what I mean is that if you marry someone in your 18 or 20 or 25 and now you're 45 or 60 because you know we see divorce rate is going up in people above 55 60 so you know we have these people who sort of wake up in relationship you know where you know we have a lot of followers who comment about that like what do you do when you're 48 or whatever or you're 32 and you've been in this relationship for 10 years and you're like wait I'm not getting my needs met I'm I haven't communicated you know I I don't communicate we don't grow together I've given up myself my body, my whatever. And now, like, you have these couples who have, like you were saying, if you don't have a safe space to communicate, how do you create one? How do you create, you know, a room within the relationship? Yeah, I mean, I think obviously a great place to start is therapy if you have people who willing participants because it's a beautiful space to start unpacking some of that. It's a tough knock when you wake up one day or you wake up over a few months or a few years and you're like, "Holy crap." You know, like this is not where I want to be, but or you feel like there you have a resistant partner who's unwilling to do or to like to meet you where you're asking them to meet you. Which I think is a common, you know, it seems to be ever so common. And I think the challenge of being the person on the other side is, you know, hearing, "Well, I'm not happy with the relationship." And all of a sudden they're like, "What the fuck?" I thought you were fine. And we get a little pissed off and like, I can't do anything right versus being like, "Oh, I hear you and we created this together." You know? Yeah, well, I mean, hearing that for many people is incredibly scary. You're unhappy. Might mean that this relationship is going to end. You're unhappy. Might mean that you've done something wrong. Sorry, I'm saying it like, "You're unhappy. My partner is unhappy. It might mean that I have done, I'm bad." You know, I've done something wrong. There are stories around what those words mean that we attach to it, right? And so it can be incredibly intimidating for someone to hear that and be calm in that space and connected to that space where work can happen. Because a lot of times when confronted with something like that, people freak. Well, instead of hearing the content there, which is, "I'm not happy and I'm coming to you with the unhappiness because I want to do something about it." I mean, often I think people wake up to the unhappiness and just leave. You know, they like, projected onto their partner to like, "You made me unhappy because you made this relationship with me." And it's like, "No, we co-created this." And I'm sure there are times when that is truth, especially in relationships where there's abuse or controlling and all that kind of stuff. So the first step, of course, to be able to even have that conversation in the space of therapy or coaching would be a great place to unpack that. But then, I guess my next question is, then you have this person who's unhappy and not to genderise. I think that's the word I made up, by the way. But the research shows that women initiate divorce far more than men. Women, I mean, I don't think this goes to, this isn't any mind-blowing research, but women tend to have a much more sensitive barometer to emotional disconnection. And more like wanting to create cohesiveness and connection and community. So, you know, I mean, in the research, it shows that by the time a woman initiates the "I'm upset" or not happy, it takes about two years till she leaves. And sorry to everyone for the heteronormative research, but it is heteronormative. So it takes about two years to leave. And one of the articles I wrote about is this idea of when someone says they're unhappy, we often take so long to do the work. Or we have this one partner who's like, yeah, yeah, I'll book it there, be appointment, and then they know who. Yeah, right, right. I've found what's so fascinating is that then in this experience, then men are like, wait, I want to do the work. And by the time the woman is leaving, they're like, oh, fuck. And the woman's like, too light, homie. Like, I told you this two years ago, yeah. Well, because a lot of that time though, in that space, the woman is doing so much work to separate from, right? So by the time, you know, like that space, that time, the two years, the two and a half years, it's not time that's just passing by, right? Generally, the person is actually diving into themselves. They might be in their own individual therapy. And they are essentially preparing themselves and building up their trust in their own resiliency. They're building up their strength. They're working on honoring their voice. They're realizing that they're crashing through narratives that shame them or keep them stuck, right? And listen, I mean, I think that this is true for any human, right? Like any human that's really-- Any woman. Yeah. Yeah. Anywhere. Anyone, any human who comes forward and is like, I'm realizing that I am unhappy. And they put this bid out to their partner. And their partner doesn't really do anything about it. That person generally doesn't just stop there and like fold their arms over and say, all right, well, they didn't want to do anything. So I guess that's that. You know, there might be a little bit of time, but eventually they hop on and they decide to start exploring and they get reflective. And maybe they see a therapist or a coach or they talk to friends and family. Maybe they do some journaling. Maybe they do some reading. And in that space is this new, this new strengthened version of that human. And as that human strengthens, they get further and further and further away from the individual who's resisting. Yeah, the outgrow relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's just, it's like, yes, they outgrow, they can outgrow the other person and it also shifts the like one up, one down position too. And that's a that's the same really of the outgrowing. But like one person is above and one person is below. And right now I have my hands up. As if I'm like showing you what I'm talking about. Like a taller person and a shorter person. And that dynamic, it won't work. And sometimes when that person in the one down position finally comes to it or realizes that, you know, something is off there. They are crawling out of a hole that's much further down than it was before. And that is what's problematic because the person who's then done a lot of that work is like ready to ready to go and take on the world. And so, you know, if there's any kind of encouragement to the people who are listening, it's, you know, take that seriously. Like if either one, if any partner is ever like sharing vulnerable, that something feels off. Don't just try to fix it or shift it out quickly. Like really take it seriously because on the other side of the absence of that can be the ending of a relationship. Like the defensiveness and the willing to like want to protect the like identity of the relationship. It causes us to not actually observe what's really happening here in the person. And then we lose them. And you know, the reason that was so important to me to communicate to men in one way is that like women, you know, in the research is shown. And again, not mind blowing, it seems sort of obvious that when they have like a really detrimental or painful news, they tend to share it with their friends. And they share it with their partner about 35% of the time. I think the number was somewhere around them. But men tend to share it with their partner about 70, 67 I think percent of the time. And that shows you that like when they lose their relationship, they often lose their social system, their their support system. But when women lose their relationship, they don't tend to. They still have a social system. And that's why like you see men experience much more depression from divorce. They don't tend to recover as well. They are more likely to get remarried though, which is kind of fascinating. So I'll just bring this dysfunction to a new relationship, you know, without looking at it. Well, sometimes though the men do, I I had a man though after that, that really do come in and they really want to do the work and like figure out like what lock them. Yeah, I'm sure due to and I think like one response I remember of a friend of mine to that article that I wrote about like do the work before she leaves essentially. He was like, I did the work and she left like I was her in your article. And I'm like, yeah, I hear you, you know, that's like very important to show that men are rising from this emotional awareness standpoint. And women are not meeting them. And then, you know, I've been very fast. So you know, I get quite passionate about this idea that if a woman leaves a relationship she's seen as empowered, you know, very often, not there is shaming obviously in everybody, you know, can be ashamed for we're getting divorced or leaving. And often though like a male leaves a relationship, the message is a little different. Like he's giving up. He's afraid of commitment. He band in his family. You know, the messages can be a little different. And I know that can be all of the shaming tactics we have for preserving relationship and wanting to keep these systems together. It's quite fascinating. Like from an evolutionary standpoint, we don't want people to break up, you know, but but very, you know, even that concept of like should we stay together for the kids, you know, this idea of staying in a highly high conflict relationship for kids is not beneficial. Yeah, I mean, I think it's the reason though for women leaving and that being kind of an empowered thing is really because we won we couldn't before. Literally. And also, and you know, now we have so many women who are, you know, making their own money and and are, you know, financially capable of of leaving and standing on their on their own two feet. But for so many women, of prior to this, they really couldn't, right? So this idea of the-- actually being able to leave is, you know, is empowering in the sense that for so long, like, we have, we've been so stuck, you know, and so to have this freedom to, and then this is not true for all women, you know, there's a huge privilege here, but so women kind of across the board when a woman does leave, whether or not she can financially support herself or not. Like that, that does feel like a big deal because of the fight that we've been fighting for a long time. And continue to fight, you know, and the, I mean, I guess that leads to, we are in these experiences now where like very much so, like women can take on so many different roles in relationship and whether this is heteronormative or not, even in same sex relationships that we have, like, just the more masculine partner tends to take on provider role that's sort of like a socialized role for men. And I often see this, you know, in experience with there's so many like powerful, strong women who are taking on this role of provider and they often attract very feminized men. They're like, you know, they're like, why? Why am I interacting these types of men? And you know, it's pretty clear from the outside. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, when we start exploring more of, you know, kind of like the paradox of women and all of us on this like kind of sliding continuum, whether you're, you know, we've talked about this before, whether you're labeling it as like masculinity and femininity. I know some people don't like using that language, but you know, if you're, you're using that as like the two, two kind of like extremes, right? The acceptance that we're really sliding around in that space is different parts of us are coming forward given the people who are in front of us, given the work that we're doing. You know, we're turning on and turning off this idea that we have to hold in one place or the other is faulty one. And two, it creates a lot of chaos and distress, I think, relationally, because even this idea of like, oh, like a woman who sits in her masculine more is going to have to, is going to have to attract, I guess if we're talking about a heterosexual relationship, is going to have to attract a man who sits in his femininity more as opposed to here are two individuals, two humans who slide through in these different parts just like merge with each other well. You know, I think about my relationship. And I would say when I'm like with work, I tend to be much more in my masculine. And like the business side of things, I think like the therapist part of me slides around in that space too, like the feminine side will come forward as well. But when it comes to work, it slides forward. But you know, my partner is certainly in his masculine a lot too. And I would say that we sort of slide around together. And that work just because, because I would imagine that most people who know me might label me as more in my masculine. If they don't know me like super well, they, I don't know, what do you think? I think that previously that might have been true. You know that when we look at like, I guess what I was getting to is when we have women who are really in these purpose driven, money driven, providing roles, a lot of that can be in response to seeing women not have support when they left relationships to take care of themselves. We have messages like never depend on a man, always, you know, make your own money, money. And then we got Beyonce singing. You know, we got a lot of cool messages happening. I think if those aren't clarified, that independence is actually walls that guard us from, you know, and so when, yeah, I mean, you're all the, yeah, I'm sorry, all the independent ladies, right? I mean, I think it's different than having as longs. It is a great song, but it is quite different than having a strong sense of self. Totally. And there's so many women who I, who I meet and are caught in this space where they're attracting men who are more feminized. And so when we talk about this space, just so people are understanding, it's like when we say masculine feminine, we might say what we would traditionally define as masculine, even in a, in a same sex relationship, someone will generally be more one masculine. And the other will generally be more feminine. And as the end of us saying, you can deviate and play and flow. And one might take a role. You know, this is a lot of David Dada's work from the book, The Way of the Superior Man, if anyone wants to learn more on it, that sexual connection requires polarity that it requires like a pursuer and a pursué, a hump, or a humpy. I don't know. That's not the professional term, just so we're clear. So it is interesting, though, that we have like, okay, so we have these feminized men who are pursuing and, you know, the work from is it who's the guy who wrote No More Mr. Nice Guys, a Robert Glover? Robert Glover. His idea that we have, I'm really fascinated by his work because it talks a lot about how for men who are in, who are now, you know, adults, a lot of their fathers were working during patriarchy, right? We still see there is still happening. Don't worry ladies. And then I'm acknowledging that. And then, and so they were raised by mothers who taught them how to be men. And for the first period of their life, they were in school. And then I think it's like 95% of teachers are female. So they spent the majority of their early childhood, adult and like, young, adulthood, trying to please women. It's such a fascinating, like when you start to look at the socialization of that where it's like, oh, this is like where Nice Guys finished last come from. But it's, you know, he was this great saying that Nice Guys are actually anything but nice because their kindness always has this sort of like passive manipulation to it. Yeah, it's always for an outcome. Yeah, which is kind of crazy because it's like the, you know, I was for sure a dormant, you know, in a lot of ways. And my younger relationships, if a girl did something, you know, unkind, I would be like, cool, you know, like, I love being at walk down. Let me just, where are your feet going? Let me just lay down ahead of you, you know, and it was, it's interesting to look back because I actually did see like boundaries and standing up for myself. I was actually fearful of being an asshole or fearful of being controlling because I did, you know, get those messages as a kid growing up in the, in the 80s and 90s good music times, by the way. But I was a child in those times, you know, it was like, I don't want to be like other men. Which somehow I got. Yeah, I also think a lot of women now, because I see a lot of women who have conflict with their mothers. And so a little bit of what you're saying, which I think is true because a lot of the, a lot of the men that I work with when I, when I, we talk a lot about their definition of masculinity and how they saw their fathers use aggression or, you know, versions of anger that were control and power that were really like distasteful for them. And so. They treated their mothers or left their mothers. Yeah, they're just like, just treating people in general and like, just their way of being and how a lot of the men that I work with now have a lot of resistance to that. And, and, and in some of the therapy, it's a part of why they have a hard time like holding ground in their masculinity because they will do everything in their power to lean away from the definition that they have of it. That was very much how I observed you know, my father wasn't like that, but that's how I observed, or at least the message, I mean, my mom is a feminist by many definitions. And it, even going and volunteering at a women's shelter, I remember feeling so like sad for them that they had these men abused them and hurt them. And, and I never wanted to exhibit it because I confused anger with aggression. Right. And I think, I think a lot of women, at least what I'm seeing in my work too, is that a lot of women struggle with the relationship with their mothers because the, at least like, generationally speaking right. So if we have, it depends what kind of age range we're talking about here, but a lot of the women that I see, there's so much frustration and anger and resentment directed at mothers who didn't have a voice, who weren't making their own money, who didn't have the freedom to step away or stand up for themselves or like, you know, just all of that. And, you know, obviously, being in New York City, I do work with a lot of working women, women who are, who are very bright, who are like just professional young women. And they're very strong. And a lot of that strength is from a space, a story that's like, I want to be nothing like my mother. And it's a tough one for people to like label and say out loud because they still have love for their mother. And they can, can, can see or understand what the constraints were. And so, you know, a lot of the work is kind of merging the two, but this residual anger of like, why couldn't you do what, like, what you should have been doing, you know? And it is, it is pretty interesting to look at the images and the messages that we saw and received around this and how that's really shaped our story. around how I need to be as, you know, whether it's a woman, you know, how I need to be as a woman. What I'm going to do to protect myself, I'll never be this way. You know, you look back and you're like, I will never be this way. I need swings all the way to the other hand. Yeah. Well, it's interesting too, because then in that sense, you get a man might be tested, you know, in a heteronormative, in relationship. It's like, if the woman in that space is like, will he bend and break for me, is he strong enough to actually stand up, you know, when a man can stand in his masculine, when he could say, your behavior is actually out of integrity for me. It's not okay. Then that woman who's guarded with all these walls, who's been waiting, you know, for this experience, finally gets to be feminine, you know, finally gets to be the little girl who gets to soften and, you know, and that's such, it's so interesting to, as a male, or the grown woman who does. Right. And to like be, it's interesting to like have observed former versions of myself to be like, holy shit, she was fucking testing me. Mother. You know, I understand that. We don't even, I think a lot of times we don't even know that we're doing the testing, you know, and like I can, that has totally happened between Connor and I. And he will, you know, he is, he's the first person to, you know, kind of call me on that and then kind of like knock me off of it and sort of pull me back into that space, you know, where I'm like, oh, right. Okay. Yeah. Well, where are you finding me? I don't even consciously. Yeah. And it's really like the first person to ever fully drop me in, where I've been able to like really meet my femininity in ways that I had never met before. And it's, it is quite startling and it's interesting because you don't realize like I, you know, I, I, it wasn't in my conscious mind, the test that I was putting forward, but I was. And it's like, it is that part of the self that's like, all right, what are you going to do with this? Huh? Like what are you going to do about this if I push it? Yeah. You know, how are you going to let me get away with this? Like other guys have done. And you know, it's, it's so fascinating to observe and watch and be part of not near relationship only, but like all relationships, including mine, where once I learned that the moment you sell out yourself, so whatever the masculine partner, you know, doesn't matter, man or woman, but whatever, whenever you sell out yourself, your purpose, your integrity for your partner, you lose them. Yeah. You know, like this idea like, is he or she whatever going to stand strong enough in her true? That if we are ever tested together, he will or she will protect me. She will be stronger than my bullshit, which man, when I first read that, I was like, I remember reading that in David Data's work like she doesn't want to be the most important thing in your life. Thanks. My support person. And man, what did it shift that was? I was like, oh, I've had it. I was like, where was this book when I was 20? You know, but it's so beautiful to know that we can learn this enough. And instead of shaming the 20 year old version of me, you know, who got hooked on to now be have such compassion for our old selves and to say, I see you and like, I recognize that I didn't know it then. But hell yeah, I'm going to input that shit today. You know, to like see relationship, to see also when we're testing people and to really own that test. You know, like when you got called out on that shit where you're like, ah, damn, I mean, how can you catch yourself when you're testing ahead of time now? I'm not sure that I really do it anymore. I have it in a long time, you know, because I think it's, I think that once you experience it, and I think I poked a bit in the beginning more, but once you experience it, like the trust does get built. I imagine that like if the trust suffers at some point, that part probably will come out again. But right now, you know, the trust is so strong that I don't think that part of me feels the need to test. So no, I haven't seen that part come forward in a while. Which is good. Yeah. You get to relax and just chill out. And I think you were saying this, like it does, it really does go both ways. Like standing firmly where our boundaries are. Like, you know, he would do the same thing. And I would catch it immediately and be like, no, you know, and it's like that, like that doesn't work for me or that doesn't fly for me. And in that space, it's like, okay, this woman means business. You know, like, okay, I'm not going to be able to get away with X or I'm not, you know, and that I think is like, obviously, we are all accountable for ourselves. And this is not about like, hey, my partner's my accountability meter. And that's great. Yeah. So we have we do have to own ourselves. But there are parts of us that sometimes become, you know, unhinged and they become reactive and they're pushing for something and they are seeking for some type of protection. And those parts, like they test that that other part of the system. And when it's like, oh, yeah, this person is so grounded, so in themselves, they know exactly what they want and need. They know where the boundary is. They don't have a problem voicing it and it will certainly push it back. And there's no space in room for it. Okay, that's it because that creates a ton of safety. And that's what it's all about is being able to feel safe and secure to be ourselves, to grow, to make mistakes. And my experience with Kai too, and she calls me out on stuff. I'm kind of like, hell yeah. You know, there's like a part of me. It's like, I wouldn't have known had I not been called out. And it's this beautiful mirror. You know, and that's why relationships, you might think we might think we have our shit together. And then you fall in love and you're like, oh, I didn't wait. Yeah. There's some parts that we can't see, you know, and to have a partnership where it is invited to say, hold me to my high self, make me a better person by inviting me to that space, which I agree to step into. And I would have never known that if I get no kick and boundaries. And when someone calls you out, that shit is sexy. I don't know. But as like, after a D's yak, it's like, you stopped doing that. I'm like, start doing that. No, I'm saying. Sure. Sure. Well, thank you so much for being on this podcast. And for sharing your wonderful not knowledge, I will for sure be having you back on here. Just FYI, that'll have you back. Great. And how can people find you? Yeah, on Instagram, you can find me at MindfulMFT as in Marriage, Family Therapy. And my website is NewYorkCouplesCounseling.com. And you're also on Facebook under Mindful Marriage and Family Therapy, right? Yeah. Yeah. Same with Twitter, but most of the, yeah, most of the stuff goes up on to Instagram and some articles on Facebook too. If you go, it is phenomenal. Let me tell you. Thanks. Sure. Well, thank you. Thank you. Cool. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the podcast. If you really enjoyed this, please consider sharing the episode with your friends. And if not, just sharing the podcast itself because everybody is interested in relationships, whether they admit it or not. So you'll be doing them a favor. I would love your feedback. You can just head to my website, Markroves.tv, like television to leave a comment for the podcast. Join me next time as we find out what it is that makes humans amazing levels. [BLANK_AUDIO]