002 Enter Your Separation Season with Joanna Wiebe of Copyhackers

You might know Joanna Weeb as the founder of Copy Hackers and the original conversion copywriter. But if you are looking for a podcast episode where she talks about the same things she's been talking about for a long time, you know, the things like copywriting, voice of customer research, money words, well this isn't that podcast episode. This episode Joe herself told me she has not shared this info anywhere else. We talk about what separation season is and what it looks like for Joe. We talked about the massive shift in the Copy Hackers organization that's happened over the last, maybe you're at most. We also talked about why Joe is so obsessed with helping freelancers get rid of what she calls money stress. And yes, we talk about that Instagram post. It's all coming to you right now. Oh, and pop those earbuds in. We do swear. [Music] Well, thank you for being here, Joanna. I'm super excited to chat with you. And I just want to jump right into the action, which let's talk about that post. Wait, what post? What post? Yeah, exactly. So I believe on the front, the first slide of that post on Instagram that went viral said how I became a millionaire copywriter or something to that effect. And there was sorry, go, it looks like you're going to find people ask me how I see a millionaire copywriter. Yeah, you became a millionaire. Yeah, exactly. I can. So it went viral. And there it seemed like it took you by surprise all of the different reactions. So what how are you feeling now several weeks after that post went viral? Well, so the idea was to the business strategy is focusing on a different audience than we have in the past. So the goal was to get people to unballo us. I didn't expect that it would react and people getting having a lot of dialogue around it. I just didn't. We posted a lot of things before. And they've been like, you know, you get lots of like, like, like, or some comments or whatever. And so this was a lot. And so we were surprised. And what's what's most surprising is I think for me what's most surprising looking back is how people kept privately DMing me going like, are you okay? Are you going to get through this? And I'm like, I'm not like, I appreciate the concern, but this wasn't like, oh, shit, moment. This was a cool, it's working moment. So nobody wants to hear that. But frankly, some of the people in there. You're not supposed to follow me anymore. And it's I find it interesting those who continue to follow and we're like, oh, I'm eating popcorn while watching this. Cool, man, whatever whatever works for you and your life's pretty, you know, shitty evidently if this is like entertaining you it's actually entertaining me though, but I'm the one who posted it. So it should be entertaining to me. But there was a lot of, oh, no, you're your social media manager did this without you knowing. Nope, I wrote the thing. It's in a Google doc. I write Google docs all the time that have all the social posts written out in them for these carousels. And that was just one of many. It's just that it it pushed buttons for people. I think the hashtag for writer was part of the problem that some people had with it. But the message is the message I've heard a million times from people who coach me. If you're not going to do the thing that I tell you to do, then you can flock off. And that's I think that's an absolutely fair statement to make. I don't think there's anything ableist about it. I'm not going to be able to write for every single scenario of there. And that's why the opening the opening slide was setting up the expectation that this is a message for people who wonder how I became a millionaire and I've asked me that and if I'm going to tell you what I did and you're going to be like, what else should I do that? I don't think that would work. No fuck off. Sorry. I know I don't know if that's normal to swear on your show. Oh, it's going to be Joe. This is me. I know I'm like, for you, this should be fine. That was 100% my take. That was the idea behind it. And you know, people who know me, who know me well know that this wasn't an accident. That blew up was bigger than I expected though. Yeah, for sure. So I mean, it didn't surprise me at all, but I've been around. I've been in your sphere for at least five years, I think now. So it didn't really surprise me. I am wondering though, because I mean, you have admitted that you are writer. When I think of writer and obsessed writer, I think you through and through, you've done, you've done a lot in the writing world. And you've also talked about not to be completely stereotypical about writers, but a lot of writers are introverted. They seem to be on the more, I don't love this word, but I'm lacking a better one, I guess, sensitive ish about feedback. And so, I guess I'm wondering, have you just always that hasn't really been a thing with you? I mean, because you didn't always, if I remember quickly, you didn't always do the social media. That wasn't your big focus for a long time. Did you have to prepare yourself for this kind of feedback? Or was it just you were given the gift of not giving a shit frankly when it comes to that kind of feedback online? I was just curious. Yeah, I think I mean, because it wasn't, again, it wasn't an accident. It's not like I said anything in there and I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have said that fully stand behind all of it. Even when I like in a comment and my social media manager is like, don't reply to comments. I'm like, well, I hear you, but I'm going to reply to this one. And I did hard, I roll in reply because she was like, you're not listening to your customers. And I'm like, you're not my customer, though. And and the argument, of course, there was a lot around like, but I am, I've bought your stuff before for some people most haven't. I had a lot of like, well, but you might have been my customer and I appreciate that and I hope that you got good things out of that and still continue to, but I'm moving on. Like it's like I'm shutting down the old way and moving on with the new way in this post is one way of explaining that. In the social media space, no, I, this is new to me. Social media is new to me. I wouldn't be on it if I didn't have a very good friend who said to me, she just whenever I like, I would go away on little retreat things together in a little group of us. And she said last summer we were on one, she does these little zingers out of nowhere. She'll just be like, you should be on social media more. And she'll say it was such like a flat way that I'm like, oh, yes, I should be on social media. My friend, Chris, who runs Wistia, he was talking about his social media person and how they do their meetings. And so I've pinged him to get some more insight on like, what do we do to do this right. And so that's what we've been doing ever since. So I don't know anything about social media except I think it's just like everything like you're talking to people. And they can react though in ways that are public. And that's the thing to learn about is, okay, if they can react publicly to me, okay, I can live with that. And I can live with people being mad at me. I've survived people being mad at me. I'm okay with that being mad. I don't want to hurt anybody. But I think anybody who walked away from any of my posts thinking I've been hurt by that, I would want to have a conversation with them about how it's not. I don't have a conversation with them. And leaning more toward the maybe taking things a little bit too personally when it has nothing to do with you. And you can let it go because I didn't say, hey you you suck. I just said like, hey you if you're going to ask me these questions about making money and you don't do the things. Then here's my message for you, but if none of that is true for you, should be fine. But it's not in that social media. That's just I'm cool with it. I don't know what it is, but I just don't have a reaction to people being like mad at me. If you raise your voice to me, I really have zero reaction to it. I don't want to make people cry. That's what I don't want to do. But I don't care if you're mad. I hope your life gets better. And I really don't think I did anything wrong. Maybe I'm a sociopath. I'm kind of talking about things. But these answers take you know, the context would be like, whoa, a girl is flat. She has no feeling. And I do. I just don't care enough to stop doing what I'm doing. Well, and I think I mean, I've heard this from plenty of people on especially, you know, the influencers and people are experts in whatever they chose at the beginning and then they start pivoting or they start adding topics and saying things. that they hadn't because imagine this were humans and we don't stay exactly the same forever, I hope. And and there I've seen a lot of resistance when you start making those shifts, but I mean, the truth of the matter is we all I think it we should be the goal should be growth. And but it does seem to really be tough for some people who have put you in a box or categorized you however they have categorized you. And then when you start showing that you don't fit into their box anymore, wow, it seems to really get some emotional reactions. Yeah, they want to put you back in the box, the box. Yeah, once you're there, they know what you are, they can put a label on it and walk away. Exactly. Yeah. And I and that's why I appreciated the post so much because while it didn't surprise me, and I think I kind of had a little bit of a behind the scenes, I mean, as a part of CSP, a copy school professional, I kind of knew I kind of know a sense of what you were probably doing. But I am I am wanting to hear more about this shift and we're where did this all start because I really what I haven't heard a whole lot of conversations about when you decided to really shift towards, I mean, I just know one of the you know, CSP and these other changes you've made, but how did this all where this what where was the seed planted or how did this happen? Yeah, I think it's a great question. I haven't had a chance to talk about it. So this is great. Outside of posting a little bit here and there on Instagram. But yeah, so for me, so copy hackers is 13 years old. I had seven years of in-house/agency work before that. So I'm 20 years into this. 20 years of seven years of learning a lot in-house and then going out on my own, still learning more as a teacher and someone who was a practitioner as well doing the work. So 20 years later, you're you've changed your perspective on things have changed. Of course, it's like you're saying, of course, it's post-change and I got burned out. Like a lot of people do. I was burned out. I was annoyed to see this like collapse of copyrighters in like what I took away as whininess if we're being honest with the real word. I really think it was a bunch of whiners who were like, "A.I. came along and killed my business." And I'm like, "No, you let your business get killed. You were not strategic. You weren't taking this work seriously. You were doing the shitty work the whole time and acting like the world owed you something for showing up and guessing at what you're doing. The world didn't. A.I. came in and said, "I can do this better than you can." And A.I. was fucking right. It could do it better than a junior copywriter. If you want to stay junior, zero-ndamned fault. And that's true across everything. And no one wants to hear that shit, but I'm tired of and all copywriters who are good at their job should be tired of this too. So if you're like, "Don't be tired of it. Get better at your job." So that you get worked up too. We should all be a little worked up that a bunch of people in our camp decided to abandon camp and talk shit about the future of camp. Like, "No, no, no, no. The good ones are still here and stop." So I was at this place where I'm like annoyed that everybody's like, "Sky is falling over chat GPT and other tools that nobody had the long-term vision for this." And it's a trigger from like my whole career. My whole career people have said copywriting is the luxury in the agency. There were five designers for one copywriter, right? So what does that say? All serve clients, one copywriter for everybody. Like, there's a clear message that copy is not as important as design. Fine. So I move out of that toxic feeling environment. It's not actually toxic. It just didn't feel good to me, but as a very normal. It's just the way that it is. And so I can't complain, but I can change things for myself. So I moved into a tech company. More copywriters in there, more of a sense of, okay, this is a specialization. This is a skill set that you don't just guess at. Until people started reviewing copy and it's like, "Oh, they're still just thinking I'm guessing." So, okay, let's enjoy being in a tech company. And then let's move on. Then I worked at a CRO agency conversion rate experts did that on the side when I was getting started. Well, before I left into it, as I was getting ready to start copy hackers, I was doing this to like sharpen my skills in a world where copy was held in extremely high regard. And I was like, "This is it. This is where we need to be." So I have these like early seven or eight years of dealing with what we all deal with as copywriters. Everybody thinks they can do our fricking job and that we're guessing at it. And it's not until you show a process and put your foot down and say, "No, we're doing it this way. No, I'm not going to guess. No, I'm not going to rewrite that on the fly for you because you had an idea and I'm your fricking keyboard monkey. That's not the way it is." So I've got all of this stuff going on. All and I feel like copy hackers has existed to make copywriters more valued. So we'd say be the most profitable person in the room. We put it big. We put it across things, not so that you can go around and type and say, "I deserve a lot of money for that." Like to actually have good skills and really move people to action with the words that you use and the way that you use them. All of that to say, so there's this context in which I'm operating. 20 years of believing copywriters are undervalued copywriters need to stand up, work harder on our craft, be open and public about the craft that we are invested in and how we're doing it always better all the time. We're critical to sales. We're critical to big ideas. Like this is huge for what we do. Only to have a bunch of copywriters wine and complain that there's some $9 tool out there that's going to replace them. So I'm like, "I need to stop talking to those people because they're burning me out. Who are the people that I'm working with next? Who are the people?" They'll get me excited and I had a year of not knowing. I didn't know. I don't know and I'm like, "Okay, I'm just going to sell the business and if there's not a good buyer for it out there, I will just close this shit down and I'll figure something else out. I've had job offers my entire career. Maybe I'll just take one of those this time. Maybe I'll work with a friend. I'll have a partner on something. That'd be cool. So I'm exploring all these things and then I was listening to Andrew Wilkinson, who I know from way back when he was on a podcast on Farnham Street. He was on and he was talking about money stress when he was growing up and how he just didn't want money stress and it was a click for me. I realized I too felt like my real purpose was not just to help coffee writers be valued but be valued so that they can bring money into their house and not have money stress. So this is a little light that goes off for me. This was last May. I think is when I watched this and then I started working through like what I could do. Then I arrived last January somehow. Some magic happened at some point and I was like I am here to turn 5,000 coffee writers into millionaires. I don't know but I don't know but that suddenly became a real purpose and then it's like okay who can be the millionaire and who can't? Those who say that won't work for me give me another idea. No I don't like that. That sounds hard. I can't help them. They got to go and that's where I've landed now. I can only help people who are resourceful and deserve to rise up to that next level where there are still lots of clients looking for work at a strategic level. Not this. Not I'm going to make $50,000 a year and be like cool. I'm a freelancer. No you're like barely getting by and it's critical here and I know I'm talking a lot but it's critical because a million dollars isn't a lot of money to be a millionaire is not a lot of money. People here that go that's horrible and to say no do you know what the freaking cost of living is as you're moving into retirement. Let's see median amount of the median retirement savings in America. Have you heard this? I know it's really low. Yeah the average is the hundred thousand. That's true. The median Jessica is five thousand. That when we're doing median and mode from like grade seven or whatever the actual average the majority of people have five thousand dollars in retirement savings. Me. Okay hold on hold on. There's in like half of 10k five thousand four figures. Five zero zero zero point zero zero. There's no extra cost. There's a thing. - You're gonna go comma in there and barely. You don't even see the comma. - Okay, I'm just for the audience, my mind is blown right now because my family, now we have two kids at home, one who's definitely not at home ever and then another in college. That's not even our monthly expenses, not even close to our monthly expenses in, yeah, for the four of us who are at home full time, that just wouldn't come for a month. - Wow. - $5,000. And where are we going? Let's be honest, where are we going with social programs? Are we helping older people more or helping them less? Is healthcare getting stronger or worse? Like everything is crumbling around you. All of the forces that are keeping your grandparents up are gone. Let's imagine that they're actually gone plus the environment is horrible by that point. Okay, so now I have these copywriters complaining that they're only making 50,000, they're not trying hard, or they're like, I'm fine with that. All I need is my kids around me when I'm older. You have blinders on, I can't deal with people who have the blinders on anymore. You need more money in retirement. You need more money to cover your costs every single day. You need money or you will have money to stress a millionaire copywriter is a very doable thing. If you do it right, you're a strategic copywriter, you're a strategic partner, you're not an order taker, all the things we talk about in copy school, pro. That's a doable thing. And so that's where I'm at right now for the people who are like, oh my gosh, I can't risk getting sick in my 50s. That's, yeah, you can't because you have no money. Let's make you some money. Let's take this time while you're still able to do some things. Let's take this time to make you some money. And that's what's lighting me up right now. Let's make a bunch of millionaires so that there's not money stress for at least a group of people that I have some level of influence inside of the group. Yeah. - Wow, I have no idea. - That's why I'm here. - No, I appreciate you taking the time to fill in all that context because context is really key and most things. So I am curious, what are you, so we know that you have now you're doing social media, Instagram is big for you. But what are you doing now that you weren't doing before? What's a part of the copy hackers, Joanna, we business plan that's there that wasn't there before with this shift? - I love it. It's a great question. We switched from a marketing driven organization to a sales driven organization. We still do marketing, just like all sales driven organizations do marketing. We tried for copy school. We tried product led growth for a year-ish where it's product led growth being in-app. You get a trial, you take things and then like you use emails and in-app messages and other things to get people to keep going. Hard pass. Didn't work. Didn't work at all. And then I've been doing a lot of studying, different things, different groups that I'm more influenced by now than I was a year ago. So I'm a big Hormoz-E fan. I have freaking love what the Hormoz-E's are doing. I hope I don't hear something horrible that they've done because that's wood-sock because I really like how real they're keeping it and there's sales. They do sales. The same, like most of my coaches, the coaching is like, no, you need a sales team. You're gonna need a sales team. So we're gonna do, we're already, we've got a little sales team now, but that's what's different for us. We actually had to make hard decisions with our team for those who were focused on marketing, for those who were focused on launches. We don't do launches anymore. We do campaigns, but we don't do a traditional course launch anymore because they're exhausting. That's a whole other thing. So now yeah, we're building out our sales team and our org chart looks completely different than how it looked two years ago. - Yeah. I wanted to shift into, I heard you on your recent webinar about your separation summer camp, which we are gonna talk about. But I heard you say, you're entering your separation season. I really was like, and that was basically, for again, I'm gonna drop all these little details in episode one that that was really the thing that got me going, that's what's gonna get me into my ObsessTrator podcast. The thing I've been waiting for years to launch and Joe's gonna be the first person 'cause I want the sales. She dropped that a little nugget and I wanted to hear more. So we've heard a lot of details, but can you tell me, I mean, separation season for you. What is it and what does that look like for you? - Yeah. So the idea, and this goes back to Ed Milett for anybody who's read or consumed any of his content. And the idea is just very simply, there's a season during which others go on break, and that's when you separate from the pack. So a lot of people hear that and think, "Ooh, toxic hustle culture." It's like, well, don't do it if you don't want to. That's okay, you don't have to. That's okay, but you just know that others will be doing it. Okay, fine, don't do it then. I mean, I don't understand the reaction that people have and they're like, well, still don't say it. But you don't get to take away from others who need to hear it, that's a thing. It's also like, just like the, don't be weird. So separation season, if people are separating from the pack, they're doing the work that others just, they're just not doing right now. Cool, that's great. I think that's a good opportunity. It's a nice visual that I think Ed Milett's done a great job of like, he's done a great job, a lot of things. I'm not in that camp at all, but I get it. I get why people are attracted to everything they're learning over there. So that's the core of it. But for me, when I was putting this workshop together that you're talking about, I had listed out this big ass page of don't stick around if you're not cool with me saying, acting this way, I'm not gonna let you be small and you're not gonna ask me to be small either, those sorts of things that I feel like, honestly, this freaking Instagram post has freed me up in so many ways to just like actually just like be me and not worry about it because I'm not worried about it in the first place. So why are we editing ourselves and trying to act so much like we, I know that I'm a good person. I know that I am a left leaning socialist type person. I know that I want good things for humanity and for the environment. I know that there are good things. And I know obviously there's also bad shit. We've all got bad shit going on. And I hope that I don't spread anything that's upsetting to people, but I also just believe like, I'm gonna say something and it comes from a very good place. I'm good at self editing. So I'm unlikely to say the worst thing 'cause I don't actually believe the worst thing either. But sometimes I'm gonna call you a poor writer because I was poor. I think it's a good thing to identify poor versus rich. So I'm gonna say some things. You're going to not like them. Okay, I'm not, it's not a crusade. It's not anything dramatic. I'm just, I'm separating from the Joe that you think you know. That's it. I'm 44 years old. I'm not 24 year old Joe. I don't need your approval. I do want good things for you like I always did. But if you don't want them, or you're gonna like put up a lot of barriers and say no to this, that and the other thing. No, I've got to separate from you as well. Like it's, we're mostly at a really good Instagram clip of him on stage talking about how he had to say no to a bunch of clients in order to say yes to the right clients. And it's like a really obvious thing but it's good to hear those messages a few times. You know, when you forget like, oh yeah. That's not just true for the brands that I work with when I say focus on your one reader, who are you, like what's your differentiated value all of that, but for us, I'm not the same teacher that I was before. I can still teach you the same things, but I've done all that. Go take copy school if all you want for me is someone to teach you to write a headline. That's cool. That's great. I can help you with that, but not anymore. Now I wanna help you if you really want to advance your career as a copywriter and be taken seriously as a professional. Does that answer your question about my separation season? - Absolutely, absolutely. - What's your separation season? What's going on? - Oh, what's going on? - And this is so Joe like to turn it around on the person who's supposed to be in her name. - No, I wanna know. - No, well it was prompted by you, so that's helpful. So if you haven't put it together for those of you listening, I am in Joe's program, CSP, copy school professional. And, and Joe and I, I've worked for Joe and we've worked together a lot collaborated on things and it's always a joy, but Joe has seen me struggle through where, what is my thing? Where do I belong? I love writing. I also love talking and listening to people. What do I do with all this ENFP if you're into that kind of thing? energy that I have and a lack of focus and so Joe's just been around me and see me do a lot of things. And so when she reaches out via text message one weekend, uh, to tell you that you should consider pivoting your business, um, you take it seriously. And so my separation season is really about finally feeling good because the moment you sent me that text message about shifting my business back to the thing that I've loved since I was a little kid. Um, and I'm not dropping it right now because I'll share it some other way more strategically, but, um, it felt right. The moment I read your text message, it was like, yes, I don't have to fight anymore. I, I was grinding and fighting to make something fit that wasn't, it just wasn't. And I can't explain that, but I felt like it became clear. There was a, you know, uh, Steven Pressfield talks about, you know, the resistance. And I felt like there were a couple different types of resistance. The kind you just get when you're like, I don't really feel like writing this today, but I got it. And like there's that, right? But then I felt like there was another resistance I was feeling, which was this, I am forcing this thing or trying to, and it is not something's not feeling right here. And I can't explain it beyond that. And when you sent the text message, it was like, yes, this is right. This is right. And so my separation season now is taking the tools that I've already learned in CSP and the intensive and continue to learn and implement. And my big separation season is doing the thing that I haven't done in a while to be honest with you is, uh, I need to just do and stop thinking. And for some people, they're like, you can't stop thinking like you have to think things to, and it's like, no, no, no, you don't understand. My thinking is one of two ways. Either not at all or let's overthink and not do anything. My separation season is no more thinking. Just do. And it's basically it's going to be kind of my phrase, I think, for this podcast is going to be create/write whichever one of those, but write, publish, learn, repeat, just do that. There's no thing there is just, you know, the learn part is look at the data. What do people say? What's the reactions? Give VOC, whatever has nothing to do with me thinking about it. So that is my separation season as well as shifting the business, um, because I'm just going to be a good student, which is I know what you love and be coachable. And so that means this summer you and I are collaborating because I'm going to be the person who's documenting her journey through separation summer camp. So I'm curious how did separation summer camp then become a thing because you're basically the summer telling people for free how to go out and get leads. And I've seen the content. I've had a little bit of preview. These are things you all people I don't hear many people saying to do, I don't, I'm trying to think of one strategy I've heard someone coach. This is like stuff you just don't hear coaches telling people to go do to get leads. And you're telling them, but what I was curious about is you don't need leads. You've been doing the authority building work or whatever and you're focused on 5,000 copy writers becoming millionaires. So where did this lead camp come from? Yeah, I think that's a great question and nice segueing as well. Yeah, so leads continue to be a problem for people. And that's true. Even when you have a good skill set, sometimes a great referral source, something happens to them, right? Like they're, oh, I switched jobs, or I'm at a different company now and they don't have budget for services like yours. So I can't bring you over with me. Stuff like that, right? So leads, people I know good copy writers who aren't getting leads. And when I say, you know, don't worry about AI, I know that AI has affected some of those people. Yes, it has, but it's a solvable problem. I've seen strong evidence that it's a solvable problem. But you have to go out and get leads now. Fair, that's fine. People have to get leads. If I wanted to open an agency up, I would need to make sure that I'm generating leads. I'd get on, I'd say yes to everybody who comes through and says, can you hop on our stage? I would have to say yes because I'm there to generate leads. That's not the case right now. So I'm not trying to generate leads. I'm trying to generate leads for a copy school pro and the intensive. But that's very different. To me, that feels very different because that's a lot of you can spend add money to make those sorts of things happen. You can put a webinar together in ways that are maybe trickier for people who are trying to get just one great client in the door every month. So people need leads. He was coming back to that. Even the good ones need leads all over the place. And I know that if someone's ever going to join me in copy school pro, they need to have a steady stream of leads because it's like at least a thousand bucks a month. And then we'll talk at some point, not today about other things associated with that. But okay, so if you're going to put a thousand bucks a month, let's say if you're only making five thousand dollars a month, I'm 20% my cost or 20% of your income. That's bananas. So no, 10,000 my cost or 10% that's more manageable if you see a future. But if you don't have any leads coming at all, you're never going to join me in copy school pro. I can't help make you a millionaire really straightforward. If this is my vision, I need more people who are able to get toward that point. And if leads are stopping them as step one, then let's try to solve the lead problem. And then once you start getting more leads, then of course, as you know, you open up new challenges that come with, are they good leads? And if they are good leads, what do you do? How do you close those leads? Do you have a standardized offer and all the other stuff we talk about the intensive freelancing? So that's where it came from. Everybody needs leads in some way. And a lot of people are not working in the summer. I know good copywriters who come back every fall and go, "Oh, do you have any work for me, Joe? I need leads." No, I don't. I might. But you should have been working, like a squirrel, some leads away. Do the work throughout the summer. You've got to. And so that's what this is for. But there's a selfish component to it, right? Like it is teaching for free. But I do want you to eventually get to a place where you can afford to come get coached by me. And then the payoff, you become a millionaire. I get to say I made another millionaire. You get to say, "I'm a millionaire." I don't know what we want. But you need leads to get there. So let's do it. So if you haven't put it together, Joanna and I are collaborating. I'm just actually, it's Joe's thing, right? But I've agreed to just document my journey through this whole summer. And so starting on July 1st, you can just follow the journey and join for free. You don't have to pay anything. And then you can Joe's going live on Mondays. Joe, is that right? Yep. You're going live on Mondays on Instagram to share that week's activity. Then I have to go on throughout the week and show what I'm doing. So you're literally going to see someone doing the work, trying the work. I guarantee I will fail at something. It's just a part of it. Part of it. That's the way it's going to go. You'll see that. And I am totally open about that. And then there's prizes. Is there anything you can tell us? Yeah, there are fun prizes. So it's mostly stuff that when I'm going through coaching people on all sorts of things. I mean, there's one part that there's tools and school stuff and we'll probably give like seats and coffee school and stuff like that. But I looked around my desk and thought of the things that are most valuable to me in presenting. What a lot of freelancers really diminish the value or the importance of like as far as clients are concerned, they act like however you show up on camera is fine. And I can't tell you the number of times I've just been like, you could double your invoices and close more people if you just gave a shit about how things around you look. So we have, I'm not going to share it because I have to share it on Instagram. They're all all these prizes are over on my other desk over there. But it's it's a badass box of stuff that you'll use all around your desk to look better on camera, sound better on camera, look more pro overall and like behave in pro ways. We're about that and then those are just for July. Then in August, we might switch things up with prizes. So we'll share more about that in August. Well, thank you so much for all of the detail, Joe. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of separation summer camp. And then also for being my first guest on the Obscessorider podcast. Thank you. Thank you. I love it. Good luck with this. This is great. I hope it goes really well for you. Thank you. Now if you'd like to join me for separation summer camp, head on over to Instagram. at Copy Hackers and starting on Monday, July 1st of 2024, there's going to be a weekly summer campy lead generation activity for UNI to complete. And of course, on my Instagram, I'll be documenting that journey. So go to @TheObsessedRider_ for all of the highs, lows, and everything in between as I execute all the separation summer camp activities. Now, I want to take this time to just say thank you so much for joining me on my first episode of The Obsessed Rider. I hope that it has brought you value, and I hope you'll come back next time, and speaking of next time, next week's episode is again with Joanna Weeb. But instead of a typical interview, what I'm doing with each one of our guests is putting them in front of The Obsessed Rider questionnaire, which if you've ever heard of the actor's studio, or James Lipton, you might have seen his questionnaire that he does. I've created my own version of the questionnaire, and that's what you'll hear from Joanna Weeb next time.