#002 - Alex Hussain - Son of a Pastor Who Left the Church and Found God

I am scared and I'm angry and I'm confused and I'm worried that I am never going to know God. And it's the scariest fucking thing in my life because I feel really disconnected and have, I don't know how long, to me, understanding that maybe through me, you're speaking to more than just me, where do I begin? There's a few things you said, like you feel, you don't feel connected to God and it's causing a lot of difficulty in your lived experience. And before I dive in, I'd just love to hear more about what that feels like, looks like. How that shows up. Thank you. Yeah. I feel like my frustration is that every attempt at finding God is an analytical search. You know, I wake up every morning and if I was to really think about why am I doing a morning practice? It's because I want to feel God. I know that in the presence of whatever God is and we'll dissect that to the best of our ability, I hope today, but I want to feel what it feels like to have the spirit coursing through me because I know on the few moments that moments and the glimpses that I've had of that spirit coursing through me, it is like an ego death and what overcomes me in the moment of that ego death is this beautiful experience of feeling like I'm being used on behalf of the world. Like I am a vessel for transformation and for medicine and to touch people in deep and profound ways. And when that, when I'm not out of the way and rather the opposite of that would be that I'm in the way, it's all ego. It all feels like it is, it's, it pales in comparison to the potency of, of what I, as a soul inside of this human body can do for the earth when I, as the intellect and the ego, I'm in the way. And so I think one of my biggest, my desires to understand is like, how do I get out of the way intellectually? How do I remove the part of me that wants to feel like I'm the one that's doing this whole thing, you know, that I'm the one with the wisdom and I'm the one that has the, the, this profound experience coming through me, you know, because the greatest moments of my life, I feel like everything that I've ever learned and even things I've never learned are coming through me and it's, it's, I'm not using my head, you know, and I, I am someone who has a desire to reach a lot of people and to impact a lot of people and to stand on stages and to host this podcast and to, to touch the lives of, of men in particular and to, to be a space and a vessel for transformation for men in particular, to be able to walk themselves home. And I know that I cannot do that if I am not home myself. And I'd like to think that God and the experience of God and spirit is home. And so when you ask me what it feels like, it feels too intellectual and the intellect feels like it's coming from fear. It's like, fuck, I got to get to God ASAP so that I can be in this space so that I can serve. And maybe there's something there that's like, I'm afraid of being found out and I could talk for the next 90 minutes. And I, I don't even know what are you, this is, is this a soul? I'm interviewing you. Yeah. I don't know what you signed up for. I don't know what, I don't know what I signed up for, but I, as you maybe can tell, like, there's a lot inside of me about this that wants to unravel of like, I don't fully have my ideas and thoughts fully formulated. I do know that in the glimpses that I felt of God, be it in client sessions where I'm leading and I feel I've completely surrendered and something's coming through me. It is the, it is the most beautiful experience of my life. And I wouldn't describe it as happiness. I would describe it as. I think there's no other way. And this may sound cliche, but I would describe it as love. And it is love that is happening through me on behalf of the world. But it doesn't feel intellectual. It doesn't even feel like it's consciously happening. I'm not even thinking about it. It's in a way it's a flow state. And the closest that I think I've ever gotten to that on a consistent basis is through soccer. You know, and I've really struggled to find that, that feeling of like a flow and a love for the world coming through me on a consistent basis. So, um, I know that I didn't really give you much to work with. Not much. Just your open and honest heart. So let's break this down. There's plenty. Let's find God today. Let's do it. Yeah. Does that support? Absolutely. Yeah. Anything honest is always supportive in this journey. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we begin there. What does that mean? I think there's many temptations, many ways of being, many things we've been told, many things we've never been told that get in the way of connection with God. And if the word God feels uncomfortable for some people, it can be source or universe. But I think many of us have tapped into something that feels like it's bigger than us and the closer we are to it, the closer we feel complete and in a way of how things were meant to be for us and for others. And I agree. The intellectual journey didn't get me closer to God. I don't think there's no room for intellect. I think it has its role, but when it takes over and is the only one in the driver's seat, I've found for me and I've noticed in many others that it can actually create distance from the actual experience of God and being with God, being loved by God and letting that like a river flow through them towards others. So I really want to unpack this and I want to, you know, you and I could sit here the whole day and I, and we'll have many conversations on this, I'm sure I suppose where we, where I want to at least start to maybe set some context. For the conversation is because I know you and I know the story, but those that are going to listen to this, don't know the journey that you've walked from the very beginning and the upbringing that you've had and how you've navigated your relationship to God and religion and source. And so if you could take us, just give us a glimpse into what that journey has been like in particular with faith, spirituality, and God as a, as a, maybe a being or a spirit living inside of you. And take me on that journey for a moment. Absolutely. It's probably the best way to answer the question anyway, is through story. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. My parents, my dad was raised by a Muslim man and a Christian woman who were interracial. And so he grew up without a clear set of rules or religion. Uh, and when he met my mom, that's where he was coming from. Not with this particular religion or set of rules. Uh, and my mom grew up in a pretty conservative American Christian family experience in a, in a smaller town and everyone she knew and around was Christian. So everything was Christian. There was not much that wasn't Christian. And so when she went to college, she met my dad and he asked some questions that she had never been asked and she had no answers to. And so now, now being in an environment at college where she maybe didn't know anyone who was Christian, it just completely changed her whole world. And then she decided to step away from her religion, from her faith. Uh, fast forward about 10 years. I come into the picture. I'm the oldest son and my dad, the way he would describe it is that he knew that he was messed up or how it was struggling and broken in different ways, but he wanted better for me and my younger brother. That's how he would still tell the story. And so they took us into a church so that we could go to the Sunday school and learn how to be a good person or whatever that meant in their mind, in their world. And my parents would sit in the adult service and just listen. And six months, a year in, maybe my dad was in the shower and realized that he was cleaning the outside of himself, but the inside of him still felt. Dirty and unclean. That's how I feel. Yeah. I think many people feel that way. And I have felt that way a lot in my life, even having grown up in a church. Yeah. Yeah. And so he felt this light wash down the top of his, from the top of his head, down to his, down to his toes. And he walked out of the shower knowing he was different. Like that, like a revelation. Yeah. In my experience, there's some moments where God moves. at the speed of light. And there's some moments where God moves at the speed of love, which I've heard is three miles per hour, walking speed. Sometimes God can, we can call it a miracle, can miraculously move and shift something within me or in a context around. And sometimes God is the divine gardener at an agricultural farming pace, planting seeds, pulling weeds and cultivating rather than the flip of a switch. Can we pause there for a second? I want to continue the story. Sometimes God moves at the speed of light, like fast. Sometimes God moves at the speed of love. What does it mean when God moves at the speed of love? Break that down for me. Because this is why I think I keep missing it. Sure. Because I'm trying to get God to move at the speed of light. I got 10 minutes. 10 minutes, God, when I wake up in the morning, you best believe you're showing up because I got a big day today. I've got a lot on my to-do list. I got a lot on my to-do list today. I got, you know, God, I woke up a bit late this morning. I got about three minutes for you. Like fucking come on. Right. But also part of that is I think you, God, have called me to this thing. So I need you to like a microwave, get me there instantly in a minute so that I can do what you're calling me to do. Honestly, it's exactly like that. And this is my anger. My anger is like, freaking hell, God, you've told me to go on this mission, to put this thing. Right. I'm here. I feel like you've dropped me off and you left. Right. So what does that mean? God moves at the speed of love and how might, yeah, just speak to that whole thing for me because it's so profound. Well, I also struggle with rush and dancing with anxiety has been a part of my life experience for a lot of my life. And I've only been able to have words for that for the rest of my life. And I've only been able to have words for that for the last five or six years. Though I think stories that we have and that we carry in can add filters to what we might experience with God. So there's a beautiful calling in your life to bring belonging and healthy experiences of masculinity and male connection. Right. And the story you have might be, well, then I need to start doing that right now. Or I need to have impacted all these men by X date. Or whatever timelines, stories, whatever versions of success, whatever versions of living life. Well, totally get in the way of that. Totally. And that part's not God. That's me. Probably. And I don't think, I think this is an interesting thing. It's so profound. That when God moves with us, it is like a patient father watching his three-year-old child learn how to ride a bike. For the first time. Like, oh, that's so cute. Like just smiling. Like, meanwhile, I'm like, my life's falling apart. Look at him go. Yeah. Sometimes the kid falls and starts crying and the father might come to the side and comfort and still smile and know they're figuring it out. They're figuring it out. And if God were to do everything through a microwave speed, light speed, I don't know if we would grow. Totally. Because the speed part is where I'm. I'm stuck. It's the needing it now. Totally. It's like, oh, this is your Dharma lifelong calling. Yet the part of you that thinks it has to happen now, it is the part that's in the way. One of. One of the many parts that are in the way. And this is what I want to break down. It's like to answer the call is in a sense, some people would say maybe more in a religious context to like obey God. If God was to answer at the speed that I want him to, then that would be God obeying me. Sure. Seems like it. And in a sense, what I'm saying is, God, I don't want to obey you. I want, I want God to obey me. And that's why it's not working. That's absolutely. Not in a shameful way, but how arrogant. Yeah. God, listen, mate. Yeah. I know you're running the whole universe and present with everyone and you have a master plan. Yeah. Of some sort, but like, hear me out, but hear me. Here's my timeline. I need it now. So like, I can feel like I'm good enough and I can reconcile everything that I feel like is insecure inside of me. So that I don't have to sit with my pain. I don't have to be with grief. I don't want to go on the journey of discovering all of the wounds that have been developed inside of me. I don't want to have the thing that is a universal time-tested law that says that the whole, that everything that everyone who's ever done anything in the world has ever realized is that they were never looking. For the destination. It was the process and the journey they went on in depth psychology, the hero's journey. And, uh, uh, Joseph Campbell talks about the hero's journey and you recognize that the journey is everything it's laced throughout music. Some of the greatest athletes talk about it, depth psychology it's laced in, in, in, um, in spirituality and religion, the process is everything yet. Somehow I think that. And maybe this is part of the journey is, is, is feeling like I have to skip or like the, if the, because I'm here in this part of the process right now at 27 years old, that I'm doing something wrong. Absolutely. There's so many stories that guide our lives to the way we feel in our body through our emotions, through our thoughts. And we're not aware that those stories, those stories are the ones whispering in our ear, go faster. Make sure that they see you in the right way. Don't lose this relationship. Make sure you get to this point by this time, all those stories combine. And I think there's something that I've experienced that in the same way that about 500 years ago, we realized that the sun, that the earth was not the center of the universe. But that we work around the sun, not the sun rotating around us. We, as humans get to go through the same transition in realizing that God and the world and our loved ones don't revolve around us, but that we revolve around God and God's universe. And there's something about that, that feels that can feel threatening. That can feel scary. That can feel counter to a lot of what we hear about like our own self being the most important thing, which a lot of times that come through advertisements to get us to buy things, but that is a narrative and a story. And the most peace, the most love, the most secure I've ever felt is when I'm not the center of my universe. And say that one more time, the most at peace, the most love, the most secure, the most in touch with what matters most I've ever felt is when I'm not the center of my universe, but the only entity or being that's capable of carrying that weight of being the center of the universe is God. I can't take it from me and then go put it on my romantic partner. I can't take it from me and then go put it on my business because any person, any business, any organization, even a mission doesn't have the shoulders to bear the weight of being the center of the universe, let alone someone's universe. This is so profound. It feels like this is at the crux of where most personal development and spiritual development, where we get it wrong, is that we spend a lot of our time in the personal and spiritual development journey, making it about us. You know, it's like I'm on a spiritual journey, but it's like that sentence started with the I. No, no, no. The spiritual journey is happening to you, through you, on behalf of you. Reminds me of, I'm listening to these tapes right now from Francis Weller, who talks a lot about grief and initiation. And he said, he talks about when he sent out, he talks about how men have lost this sacred art of initiation. And one of the things he said that I thought was so profound, he described an email he sent out when he was running an initiation event for men. And at the start of the email, it said, if you're coming for your own personal development, don't come because this isn't about you. It's about who you can become on behalf of the community and how we're forging you so that you can show up on behalf of the tribe and the culture and the generations to follow. And I'm not saying that entirely correctly, but that's the way that I intuited what he said. And that, I mean, almost to a T, his exact line was, if you're coming for your own personal development, then don't come because this isn't about you. And he's described how initiation in historical cultures was never about the individual. It's about the community. It was about society. It was about the betterment of the world. And I'm sharing this because I think where I get it wrong is the dance between when I'm making it about what I'm here to do, how I'm here to be used. And I'm thinking about what could happen through me if it wasn't my preference. you know and versus you know well, I want to do this, you know, and you're somebody who, and there's a million ways I want to go with this conversation, but you're somebody who in the past few years I've witnessed put aside his own personal desires and gone where God has called you to go. And before I even dive into the specificity of that, I asked you about that yesterday offline. And I just want you to share with people what your answer was, because I asked you, how do you know that it's God telling you? Do you remember what your answer was? I do. I think there's a few pieces here. I think to some things you mentioned as well, our culture on the spectrum of individual prioritization to communal prioritization, what's most important, the individual or the community, our culture is pretty far on the individual side. Maybe one of the furthest on earth. And so balance for us looks like moving towards the middle where it's not just about the individual. It's also about the community. I've never grown up in a communal focused environment where the individual doesn't matter. And I imagine balance there might look like also honoring the individual as well. My experience with God, and this might lead into the question, you just asked, is that if there's a picture bigger than my life, the biggest truth that I keep bumping into, and when I do, it's the most peaceful, exciting, hope-filling thing, which is that God is redeeming and restoring the whole world, everyone and everything in it. And I get to both receive that, and participate in that redemption and restoration of the whole world. It's easier to focus on one or the other. It's either my personal growth journey, or I'm helping others. And the invitation is both. The invitation is usually and. It is the individual and the community, right? It is, I have experienced an individual love where God looks at me with love and a smile and knows, my name and desires and gifts and fears and anxieties. And also, I have experienced God loving the everyone, everyone breaking down all of the divisions that we've set up to divide each other, everyone in the whole world. And that God's interest and desire and movement is the restoration and redemption of everyone and everything. And I get to receive that and participate in that. I have no idea why God invites us, pretty inconsistent humans, to be partners in the work of redemption and restoration. But that seems to be my experience and the experience of others too. Yeah. And if you have somewhere else you want to go with that, or we can dive into, like, the conversation we had yesterday, wherever you want to go. Fuck, there's so many ways I want to go. The one that keeps coming through for me as you're talking, and I suppose this will continue the journey of your story. Sure. Because I know, obviously, you grew up in a world, your dad, your father was a pastor. Yep. And I want to hear about your relationship and how you navigated that, especially under the religious dogma that was maybe inside of your system at that time and how you've purged so much of that. And how you're moving away from Christianity in certain manners, in the manner that you did, and where you've landed now. Because the ultimate question that I have is when you're describing God, what is God? Who is God? You know, it sounds like you're describing God as a man that is a person that is guiding this whole thing. And that's the part that I want to understand. Sure. It's like, what? What is God? That is a beautiful question. I'll start with some ideas that can help us to take down ideas we have associated with that word, and then I'll dive back into my story. So just the nature of language, we might use the same word, but not be meaning the exact same thing, right? So there's a nature of language that is not precise to the degree that we would want it to be. And if God is, what is God? If God exists and moves and we experience God in some way, I imagine God would have to be beyond our understanding. And that would mean beyond our ability to articulate and describe as well. And so there's metaphors and people say like, God is like a loving father, but also all of my experiences with the father were never perfect. So there's something about that that falls short. And God is like a glass of cool water on a hot day, but also it's so much more than that. Everything we're doing is like the blind man touching the elephant at different points, right? And so I grew up with a Christian, American Christian, if you want to be specific, like Presbyterian, which is on the Protestant side of Christianity, that did describe God as he. And there's a lot, even in the Christian faith, that still sees God as like a man in the sky on a cloud, kind of like Zeus. Yeah, yeah. More than being and the creator, right? And so the first thing I can say is that I don't know everything that God is. And the mystery of that at first feels threatening or confusing or, well, all right, then I guess you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, for the part of me that wants to hold on, it feels, the word would be scary. Absolutely. It's like, I have to know. But in the same way that a trampoline, we don't inspect the trampoline and admire the trampoline for the quality of the springs. We enjoy the experience with the trampoline. That is, I think, a better way to connect with God, to talk, even talk about God. Because when I talk about the love and peace, fulfillment, sometimes loving conviction that I've experienced with God, that is, at the end of the day, all that I know. And it's an experiential knowing. I could tell you many arguments that people have made. I could quote different verses from different scriptures or- We could talk about- Passages. Yeah, books on how to pray and- Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there's something about this experience that I have encountered that is so beyond what would be possible in my everyday life that has made me know. And a version of the word know, that means, like, I know that my mom loves me more in that way than I know that two plus two equals four. It's more of a poetic and experiential knowing than a mathematic or a scientific knowing is now where I'm at. But I grew up with a presentation of a more mathematic and scientific knowing. It sounds like, this is so exciting for me, man. Thank you. Because it's really opening my eyes to the fact that it sounds like the journey to actually knowing God begins with the statement that is, I don't know. Because in the I don't know, you open yourself up to magic miracle surprises. But in many ways- In many ways, when I'm in, when I'm using my intellect, I'm trying to control the experience of God. It's like, he should be here right now. I asked for a sign, he should be on that license plate, is that? But there's more, there's, there's an absence of curiosity in that process. It's like, what I'm hearing you say is that every spiritual journey begins with the statement, I don't know. I think there's something very true about that. And I think the spiritual journey begins with honesty. And I think saying, I know everything there is to know about God definitively. I don't know if anyone could. So is that, would you say that that's the truest statement that you could possibly begin with in the context of a spiritual path? I don't know. I think there's something true there. Yeah. Something about an honest, admitting that is open and curious and willing to explore. Yeah. With knowing that if you're going to encounter something new, especially maybe if it's the divine, that that experience might not leave you unchanged. It might change you. And so are we- What are we willing to let go? This is such an interesting conversation because Because especially in the personal development world, there's this big question that is, are you willing to change? But in the spiritual world and the way you're describing it, it sounds to me like, are you willing to be changed? Absolutely. There is nothing that has changed me more than sitting in the experience of being loved by God. Nothing. So how do I do that? Well, let me tell you some of my story about how to not do that. Okay. Sure. Please. And then we'll dive into that. Amazing. Yeah. There's a lot to the spiritual journey that's more unlearning than learning. It's like experiencing and unlearning, experiencing and unlearning, experiencing and unlearning. Because there's this lie that happiness and fulfillment and maturity is somewhere outside of you. Totally. That you have to get there. And so I have to. It starts as a personal development journey. Exactly. It ends as a spiritual journey. Right. And the whole personal development journey we think is about becoming. And then the whole spiritual journey is when we realize that it's all about unbecoming. That you already are. That you already had all of it. Including God. A connection there. Even if you never had those words for it. Yeah. And part of the challenge. Part of the challenge, I think, is that most of the way we hear about these things is because it was marketed or sold to us in a package or something. Yeah. Know God in three weeks. Three months, you'll know God. Guaranteed. All your money back. Absolutely. Here's the ways I did it. Yeah. Here's what you probably feel right now. You probably feel lost, confused, stuck. You shouldn't feel that way. You're supposed to feel clear like you know God and you should have known God your whole life. And if you don't, just pay me 48 grand for this masterclass. That's right. It'll be all solved. That's right. Yeah. And sometimes it's not transactional. Sometimes the sale is to belong to a religious community or to belong in a family. Yeah. That if you still believe or say these things, then you get to belong and not have tension at Thanksgiving and all of these things, right? There's many. But I think that's the reason we're here. Absolutely. And I think that's the reason that we're having this conversation and what so many people are wrestling with is because they've sacrificed the questions. To quote unquote belong. Absolutely. In a church, in a family, in a congregation, in a culture. And I'd like to think maybe at the deepest heart of this podcast is because I don't want to sacrifice those questions anymore. And I think that like maybe if I was to ask your thoughts on this, I feel that maybe in my experience, Christianity doesn't offer enough space for questions to be asked. Hmm. Doesn't offer enough space for. For someone to come in and be like, I don't agree with this right now. Help me understand. I don't know. It's almost like at least it's felt to me and like Catholicism and Christianity and many of these religions. It's like you just, just know and you just should know. But it's like, I, I don't know. And I think maybe the feeling is that so many people have this knowing that they don't know. But they're denying. They're denying the knowing that they don't know because it would potentially lead to being outcast from the tribe. So, so many of us are pretending that we do know. And I'd like to think that this part of this conversation is my attempt to go first on behalf of everyone who doesn't know. That wants to know. So that they can begin what might be considered a really authentic, honest, spiritual journey. It's beautiful. Thank you for your leadership. And that way in your humility. And just to encourage everyone, the fear of no longer belonging to your community, whether that's your family or your faith community or any, or the culture in general is connected to a fear of death. And I mean, a literal physical death is if you think hundreds or thousands of years ago, humans who did not belong in the tribe were much more likely to die. Right. So just sitting with ourselves and having compassion towards ourselves and not beating ourselves up, that we have this resistance to ask the hard questions. Because there's a physiological response that feels like there's a fear of death. And that's valid. So any resistance towards that is not helping you. But it does make sense because it's trying to help you. It thinks it's trying to help you, that part of you. So that's completely valid. And when you expand that at scale, where you have, you know, it's hard for me to speak to Christianity, where I've just interacted with a lot of Christians, right, individuals, or America, where I just interact with Americans, right? Any way you want to set a bigger picture. I think one of the challenges, and I'll speak as being someone who has participated in the Christian community. But that like if you go back all the way to the beginning of time before man created religion all there was was opportunity for discovery and what might we might call the experience of god that we all have uniquely yet a few men have gathered together to create this doctrine that this is what god is and this is what god isn't and it's all it's almost like it feels like at least in christianity in particular it's based in right and wrong what do you say to that i think there is truth in a lot of wise things that people have to say and it might not always paint the whole picture of truth so i wouldn't say i inherently at face value agree or disagree i think one assumption in that statement that i might poke on is the assumption in that statement that god is a relatively static and non-interactive force that humans stumble upon and experience where my experience of god is is absolutely that god is leading me and leading others and is it is active whether we choose to tune into that and be aware of that or not and so there are moments where it feels like i might do the same thing and one day which is part of my story there was an experience of god in a way i'd never experienced before and altered the trajectory of my life and my life has looked different ever since and so that was just as much as me searching for god is also god deciding that that moment was the moment for us to reconnect and so i i imagine that many religions are born out of those moments where the human and the divine meet and try to hang on to that experience as much as possible and i don't mean hang on in a negative way but try to remain in that experience and try to tell others about that experience and try to bring others in that experience but as that grows it becomes very difficult to keep it an open-minded honest spiritual experience with god and the divine and not create so many rules and then eventually it's people's professions and it's how people their egos are enhanced or or their egos are stroked by people looking to them as the answers right and so we we sometimes it's both at the same time we are genuinely seeking the spiritual experience and we're also experiencing these temptations for it to be diluted in some way and so i i would imagine and i think if you look at the stories of many religions how they're founded it is typically some type of spiritual experience with the divine and they try to deepen in that and bring others into that and over time people can participate in that in a way that doesn't maybe reflect the original experience of those who had that original experience in that faith tradition but there's the opportunity to do that and to do that in a way that's not just about the spiritual experience but about the spiritual experience and just showing up to a service doesn't guarantee that experience say that again in many of these spiritual communities there's the opportunity to experience god and the divine but just being there and showing up and saying you believe these things does not guarantee the experience just showing up does not guarantee the experience that is a spiritual lesson that is a personal development lesson that is a relationship lesson that is a lesson that is a life just showing up doesn't guarantee the experience this leads me into something that you shared with me and i'm going to butcher it a little bit because i don't remember the exact words but i'm i'm i know i'm definitely in the realm you said to me i've been to church thousands of times and the closest i felt to god was at edc what does that mean so for those who don't know edc is an electronic music dance festival in las vegas the first time i went to edc i don't think i had had my encounter experience with god yet i think i had it about six months later okay but when i went to edc what i experienced which from my background many christians would look at that environment as like very non-spiritual very um self-indulgent or non-spiritual and i don't think i had my encounter experience with god yet i think i had it about six months later okay but when i went to edc what i experienced was a lot of hyper sexual or there's a lot of drugs i didn't participate in that but there's a lot of drugs yeah yeah everyone's having orgies and pretending they're in love and then maybe the first not so much the second um it's basically it's it's the same as burning man that everyone just over spiritualizes it's basically just go and have a massive orgy and i know that's kind of down big doing and i'm gonna get people who have been to burning man but what the fuck are you talking about it's sacred sexuality no you're having orgies and justifying it as a spiritual growth thing so my experience at edc was looking around and seeing that everyone was able to be themselves in an authentic way oh wow and a very expressive way could be in their attire could be in the way that they dance could be in the way that they hugged someone and told someone that they love them when in a normal context that would feel completely inaccessible or not allowable and there was something about this welcoming inclusive environment that i felt conviction and sadness that of the spiritual communities i'd been a part of i'd never felt like there was as welcoming and inclusive an environment as edc and i remember and this is before i had my re-encounter experience with god i remember sending a voice note to my family saying i think i just had the closest experience to what heaven could or may be like at edc describe that experience for me you just said i was at edc and i had the closest experience i've ever had to what heaven could feel like what happened there's a level of presence people aren't on their phones people aren't trying to get something from you people are there for you people are there for you people are there with you and are present in the moment there's a level of inclusivity where everyone is actually allowed to be themselves more fully than i had seen in every other environment there's a level of play and dance and fun and joy and the expression of those things without being restrained there's a level of community connection to strangers yeah there's an acronym called plur which is peace love unity and respect and and a lot of communities they have phrases or acronyms like that and it doesn't really feel that true it's maybe something they aspire to or how it was at the beginning but it's no longer that way and with i don't know half a million people that actually felt true with any stranger i ran into wow and so i am not saying that edc is perfect or that it is heaven there was something about those elements of that experience that i had and i'm not saying that it's not perfect experience maybe it's not heaven but would you say that it's a form of church depends on what we mean by the word church so let's go into that then and actually finish your story and then yeah and and it was at edc where i felt the freedom to dance and enjoy dance and learned that i love dance and now i dance every single day yeah because i enjoy it yeah and i love it yeah and i love connecting with people yeah through dance and connecting with myself yeah and i've started learning how to connect with god through dance yeah so there's there's things um in a sense because i'm open to experiencing god in every environment yeah religious and non-religious i was able to learn and experience and embody on an embodied level yeah another level of growth of releasing judgment and moving towards non-judgment of love for myself and for others first and experiencing the expression of god's love and identity through people that otherwise i would have no points of connection with yeah wow i feel as though i experienced god in my last psychedelic mushroom experience and i'm touching on this because because you mentioned dancing and i remember one of the themes that the shaman shared with me is the the acronym sata you have the best experience when you surrender allow trust and accept the medicine is the wisdom you're not the wisdom hmm surrender allow trust and accept and i wasn't doing that i was fighting i was looking for answers i went in and i was like this is what i'm going to understand from this experience this is what i'm going to come out of this with the answer is for and i was looping in my head and i remember it must have been like this for two or three hours it's a six-hour ceremony it's looping i felt like i was getting close i'm getting i'm getting and it was like the trap oh you're grabbing on it's like the dog when he jumps on his shadow and realize he's not catching anything oh i'm getting i'm getting this is the answer but what about this and then this is now i'm back to the question again now i'm back to the question again now i'm back to the question again and at one point i heard this voice and the voice said when you stop hunting you can hear and so i just let go i remember the feeling in my body was like it was like death it was like i must have just like like death and all i remember was slowly my hand started tapping and then my palm started tapping and then my body started tapping and i got the answers to every question that i had as it pertained to what i was working through in that moment i went in with 50 questions and the answer to every question was the same thing and i was the shaman woman was in the room with me and and inevitably i was like this and by the time of it at the end of it my mouth started moving we sing and we dance and we play we sing and we dance and we play yeah yeah yeah we sing and before you know it me and the shaman are dancing in the mush in the middle of a psychedelic ceremony i've got my thing i've got my mask on and i'm up like this what do we do today yeah we sing and we dance and we play and it was like the answer to everything how am i going to handle this conversation with my mom how do i navigate this with my girlfriend what do i do what do i do what do i do you sing you dance you play and it was like my brain just fucking exploded in that moment it's like that's that's that's it that's it and then at the end of the ceremony she said in when you go to the jungles in peru and some of the deepest parts of uh where you connect with ancient tribal culture one of the first things the shamans will ask you before the ceremony they only ask you a couple questions the first question is when did you stop singing second question is when did you stop dancing and not to claim that i'm a shaman but my third question would be when do you stop when did you stop playing because therein lies the route back to yourself and it sounds like to god i think there's a lot of truth there and those seem like pathways and doors that can reveal things that might be in the way because if i'm not willing to sing a dance or play why you were when you were four totally potentially if that was safe at that time and maybe you wanted to when you were four yeah right yeah and so i think leaning into things like that that are such pure expressions of what it means to be human joining in with children even as a student not as a teacher it's almost like the experience of god begins when the questioning of where is god ends and that's the return back because when you just remember mentioned a four year old children don't ask what is god where is god why is god they are just in the active experience of god itself that's why i mean we can touch on some of the statements in the bible i'm uh well read as it pertains to the bible itself sure the teachings that speak about children being the way back children being the ones that enter the kingdom of heaven until you become like little children you shall not enter the is that the saying you shall not yeah and jesus says that jesus says that yeah and just mentioning a four-year-old there it's like oh the real experience of god happens when you stop trying to intellectualize god was to come to you and say i want to experience god on a daily basis how do i do that hmm hmm , it's a million dollar question for me i had years of trying and not experiencing god and for the last few years i've been trying and consistently experiencing god i think the question is both authentically beautiful and honest and there's a temptation for it to be to lead to a formula for someone to say here's the steps or and i think a lot of it has to do with what we don't do okay so for me i spend time with god before i look at my phone in the day there's something about noise, visual, audio, and even just notifications and pressures and schedules, things that raise the volume level. So there's a beautiful piece in the Jewish scriptures where God is described as not being in the wind or the fire or the loudness, or the extravagant, but in the quiet whisper or in the stillness. And so for me, a lot of my experiences are in more stillness, usually in quiet, you know, occasionally at a dance experience with music, but most often in the experience alone and in stillness. And I think in some ways it can be opening our eyes and experimenting and then learning how to recognize any moment that we are with God and God is with us and that's available. And also recognizing the ingredients per se that get in the way or the ingredients that can be helpful. But part of it for me, I mean, so I grew up in a Christian church and my dad, five years into him coming to know God and coming to know Jesus became one of the pastors on staff at the church, which is a pretty quick turnaround for most people. And so for five years, he was a marriage and family life pastor. So there was a senior pastor and the church was big enough to where there were multiple pastors on staff. And he was one of those. And there were a lot of beautiful, great things. And there was a lot of hard, difficult and painful things. And both, both are true. And through my experience, there were moments in even junior high and high school where I would say that I definitely had surreal spiritual and emotional experiences that felt like some kind of encounter with God, with the divine, with, with Jesus in particular. Often for me through group music, worship and spiritual music sessions. And then when we decided to leave that church, because it was an unhealthy leadership dynamic, there was, I think my dad experienced, witnessed other people experience and witnessed some himself spiritual and emotional misuse of power. And you could use the word abuse. Yeah. So break that down for me, because that was a question I was going to ask as the son of a pastor. Yeah. What did you see or get access to that most people are not privy to within the church? Hmm. I think my parents did a good job of shielding my brother and I from politics or some of the unhealth that was going on. And it obviously affected my dad and affected my mom and the pain or the being controlled or needing to always have the answers. I mean, back to like an intellectual experience with God rather than an experiential experience with God. Right. There was a lot of in this particular church, which is common in many religious communities of having the answers. Right. And, uh, I think there was pressures and expectations put on my dad to be one. of the people with all the answers to always you know then there's the expectations of being perfect and all these things and when you wear that expectation that can become a mask at work it can be difficult over years to ever take that mask off yeah it's like the most vulnerable state as a human is knowing like thinking you have the answers yeah that's what makes you the most vulnerable because you have so much to hide playing the role of God. Yeah, absolutely. And my dad went through his healing journey, taking off some of those things, unlearning things that were put on him. And for him, I think for all of us, church has been challenging. Organized experiences of religion, of spirituality has been challenging. We've all, my parents and my brother and I have all experienced positive experiences, healthy experiences of church and religious groups since, and also some more negative ones as well. What is the original definition of church? I don't know it, I'm asking. I think I have a broad understanding of it, but how would you define or do you know what the actual definition of church is? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the actual original definition of church was. I'm curious why that feels important for you. Because you said to me that the closest you felt to God was at EDC. The closest I've ever felt to God was on a soccer field. And it's the closest I felt to what love might be considered, infinite love, pouring through me, moments with a team going in the direction of one thing. The sense of union that it creates when a collective of people are moving as one, that felt like church. And I would, at least in my, the absence of understanding the initial or original definition of church, that's how I would intuit church to be. It's like a collective of people gathering in pursuit of one common mission. And I felt that most on a soccer field. Like we would go to war. We would go to war for each other. I will die for you. And you'll die for me. And knowing that I'm going to die for you and you would die for me. It's like, I heard someone talking about this, that I forget the name of the horses, but there's these certain types of horses that when they're carrying weight alone, they can only carry, I think it's like eight tons. But when they're carrying weight together, they can carry, I think it's like 64 tons. Together. And I'm butchering the quote, but the essence is that you'd think that they could just carry double the weight, right? But because of maybe the shared competition and wanting to outdo each other, but also maybe the shared camaraderie of knowing that we're in this together, they can do four times, five times together. And so that's the reason that I asked, like, what, how would you define church? Can church be found on a soccer field? Can that be a form of prayer? Can EDC be a prayer? And dancing with that thousands of people, can that be a form of prayer? Can singing in my car, is that a form of, even if it's not singing worship music, can that be a form of prayer? Like, is God present? And is that a form of church and praying? Yeah. Can church exist beyond the confines of this building where there's someone on stage talking to us and giving a sermon about what God is? I think for starters, I don't know if it matters what my opinion of church is. It's more, there is, a truth and there's people's experience with that truth. And I think there's things you're speaking to of team and an element of being on a team to where the level of self-sacrifice for the other is, is a beautiful shared thing and rallying around a common goal. And I might add a few things because, you know, any business can have a group of people organized around a goal and that might not feel spiritual. It might, but it might not. Right. And so there's something around this group being organized around something greater than ourselves. Yes. That is true in a way that feels like we're tapping into something bigger than ourselves. Totally. If the goal is not self-serving. Yeah. And so I have experienced God on my own individually and also with others. In some of the contexts you described and also in some church contexts. And even the temptation is to think that a building or a service is a church, but from a, if you're looking at the Bible and Jesus talks about the, well, the Bible talks about the church being the people and all people following Jesus and the, that Christian view being the church. And so, yeah, there's, I think we can be much more open-minded and there is also something to it. And so, yes, I think we can experience God in any setting and there are things that can get in the way of experiencing God. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think we can be much more open-minded and there is also in any setting, including a church setting or things like that. It's interesting describing this because these three examples, you know, like the closest I've felt to God inside of church was in worship music at the beginning, singing. The closest you've described experiencing God was dancing. The closest I've experienced God ever was playing soccer, sing, dance, play. And it seems to be that all of these things are tapping into the inner child, which is the experience of knowing manner in the absence of the intellectualizing of God. It seems to be, it almost is like, that's what church is, you know? I think those are three beautiful paths, avenues, vehicles to experiencing God in an unhindered way. Yeah. The return to the childlike wonder, curiosity and play. Yeah. That is so potent to open that up. And so for me, the closest I've ever felt to God, I would say is probably on my own listening to spiritual music and on my knees and imagining myself in God's presence, like physically. Let's go into that. Tell me about that practice that you do every morning. The practice that I've been honing over the last few years, is based on an experience I had and trying to stay in that in the same way I described earlier, where that might be where many religions have come from, right? Is from some divine encounter experience and doing my best to stay in that and experience that more often. Cause there's something about it that's so beautiful and so true and feels like this is worth staying connected to and leaning into. Cause for me, after leaving that church that I grew up in, I went to a Christian college and over time, for a number of reasons, I started to not be able to experience God as often, even in the things that used to work like group musical worship or prayer and conversations with God. There were certain things where that wasn't working anymore and it went on and it went on and it went on. And in hindsight, there were certain things like maybe an unhealthy romantic relationship that I didn't want to be in. And I think that's what I've been Relationship, maybe my own hesitations and fears and not being honest about those. There were many things that were getting in the way to the point where I was going years without experiencing or encountering God at all. And not feeling that relational connection to the divine to the point where I used the metaphor that I felt like a military spouse. What does that mean? So a military spouse is married to somebody who goes off to war. And so for me, the way I describe it is that the memories of connection with God were there. The commitment was there. But the lived presence. And experience was not there. That's how I felt. It was about six years for me, which is, I can just say six years, but six years is a long time to have gone from fairly consistent experiencing this beautiful, true, wonderful, loving, healing presence to not. And as years go on, I started to doubt some of the memories and my commitment started to wane and in the same way I imagined. a military spouse where the person, the spouse at home is wondering, are they ever going to come back? That question I felt haunting. And I went through a period where I got out of this unhealthy relationship and I needed to burn everything in my life to the ground and open my hands and just say, whatever comes back, comes back. And so relationship with my parents and my brother came back, old friends from childhood, some new things came like a love of dance that I'd never found before. And some old things, love of swimming or playing music, right? And after a year and a half, my experience, experiencing God did not, had not come back. And so there was a year, a year and a half where I had, I had grown up calling myself Christian, believing in God, being willing to sacrifice many things in my whole life for it. And there was a year, year and a half where I would have actively said, like, I don't know if I believe in God. I don't know if God is real. Some people would call it agnostic. Like just, I don't know. But was it from an, I don't know that I'm open and I'm open or was it an, I don't know. And like, I'm really angry. Well, I've been a pretty angry, suppressed, anger suppressed person for a lot of my life. And so it was with a spiritual director, which is someone who holds space in the way that a therapist does, but it's more just making space for you to connect with God and the divine less. Let's go into your childhood and talk through and do cognitive. I need that. I would recommend it's, it's a beautiful experience and the right spiritual directors. I'm a junior. Who's my spiritual director? They know how to help create the space to have those encounters. And I noticed that over time, I did it for a year. Hesitations and resentments and bitterness would, were being released. There's a metaphor I've heard where you pour out the vinegar to get to the oil. So I spent a year pouring out the, vinegar of expressing the hesitation and resentment got to pour out the vinegar. You know, this is, I feel like I'm at a place in my life in which I have so much vinegar to pour out. Like, I just want to say like, fuck you and like, where are you? And I don't know. And I'm confused and I can't find you. And I don't feel like I have access to this, this presence of the spirit and it's there, but then it's not there. And I, I, there's no formula for being able to understand the existence or the presence of the spirit inside of me consistently. And it almost feels like that. Like there's a knowing inside of me that I need to do that. I need to go and be really angry and really confused and allow myself to be in the process of anger and confusion and frustration so that I can arrive at the place of love. But it's like, there's some part of me that I notice it is in the repression of that because I need to be in love. Now, but it's the honest feeling that I feel often when I wake up in the morning, it's like, I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm confused. I don't know. Do you think God can handle that? You know, there's a saying that says that. Your parents are the gods of your universe. And so in a sense, before, you know, God, like in the human experience, your parents are that God. So my first response is my mom couldn't. Hmm. And so I noticed my hesitation to affording myself the experience of certain emotions that feel like they're going to lead me to a deeper connection with love. I know in my heart right now, I have to be really fucking angry and I don't know how long that's going to take to arrive at a place in which I can have compassion and grace and forgiveness and love, which are all the qualities of, I guess, all the qualities of the divine. But then that even brings up to me, like, is anger a quality of the divine too? It's very present in the Bible. Is it? Of God. Experiencing anger. Really? I mean, if God is the creator and sees all of creation as God's children and beloved, and one piece of creation causes harm or injustice or does something wrong, what would it mean if God wasn't angry about that? So I think there is. Yeah, he's passive. Or he's apathetic at the worst. Love is anger sometimes. When the situation calls for it. Anger can be a form of love. Absolutely. If you see a mother reacting to the way of her child's being mistreated, it seems like an expression of coming from a place of love. Love. Yeah, it's not even anger at the person, what it is, but it's more, it's, it's at the deepest place, it's an act of love. Even grief. You know, there's a song from Stephen Wilson Jr. He says, grief is only love that has no place to go. And I think a lot of these turned inward really are. It's like, it sounds like all the emotions at the core are an expression of love or fear, but like anger, there is anger from love and there is anger from. Yes. Hmm. And what I found. Is that the more often I'm honest with God about my experience or lack thereof with God and even everything else. The more that I get to experience that beautiful, peaceful, fulfilling contentment. Of just being in connection, in relationship with the divine. Some frameworks that feel helpful. Sometimes I think of God as best friend. In my life. Who do I talk to the most? Who's always there for me? Who loves me no matter what. Isn't it so, I mean, it's so interesting to me because when you think about a best friend, it's someone that is unconditionally loving, absolutely safe, and that you could tell anything to yet somehow I, when I think of God, it's like, okay, well, I can't, I can't be angry. Right. Can't be frustrated. Can't be honest about those things. I'll be honest about these things a little bit. Yeah. And even when I'm honest, it's like. I'm going to curate the language. It's like, I don't really fully understand this piece. Like, but the real truth is I'm fucking pissed off. Yeah. Totally. Where does that, is that, I'm trying to figure out, is that a byproduct of my upbringing? Is that a byproduct of religious dogma? That is being angry towards God? Yeah. I think you'd be in great company of most humans throughout the entirety of history. Yeah. How so? I've felt that. Many people have felt that. It's so present. It's present in the Jewish and Christian Bible and scriptures. Some of the Psalms are expressing anger towards God. That's in scripture. And questions of where are you? It's like, it just sounds like all of it begins in the willingness to be completely, absolutely, wholeheartedly, unvarnished, 100% honest. Like, where are you is a valid question. Who are you is a valid question. What the fuck is a valid statement? I'm so pissed off is okay. It's the honesty. So anything that gets in the way of that honesty, religious or not, is a hindrance. To meaningful and deep and definitely consistent connection with God. So maybe that's partly why I felt God in sometimes on a field is because there've been moments where I've used my anger and the anger has been channeled onto a field and I've had some of the greatest games of my life. It's like, oh, the presence of God is the presence of absolute truth. Hmm. Inside of me in this moment. Yeah. So like I am expressing outwardly what is in alignment with how I feel inwardly. And that's, I don't know. One of the purest gateways. One of the purest gateway. And for me, as I went through that time of expressing all of that hesitation, fear, resentment, and where were you and where are you and why don't I feel you anymore? There was one day in particular, I was in my room. This is. Just over four years ago. And I decided to take some space. I took the morning off of work. And I just listened to some old. songs that i used to enjoy that would help me feel connected to god and there was one or two new ones as well and i just the door was closed and the windows were closed and it was like this wind rushed through the room and i felt this overwhelming presence that was emotional and somehow physical but also spiritual and it was like as a military spouses the day that god came home and that relational connection after six years of not being present finally was felt again and i just wept and one of the songs was about what it means to be connected to god and the song is called divine romance that there's like a romantic love and connection with the divine that there's this passionate pursuit and a desire to share and be open and be close and intimate and connected and it's like i finally have a framework for how to connect with you that feels so alive and beautiful and the second song was a song called rescue by lauren daigle and it's written from the perspective of god to us and it talks about you're not hidden there's never been a moment you've been forgotten and i will go at the greatest lengths to rescue you and to find you and it was in that moment that it just clicked that through this deeply painful dark few years of my life to the point where the only thoughts of taking my own life that i've ever had in my entire life the moments where i was the most disconnected from my family and my friends most disconnected from myself most disconnected from god that i could look back and see there was little lily pads that god had placed so that i could keep walking and get out of something that i was so trapped in and so broken and felt so stuck and the third song is called house on a hill by amanda cook powerful it's a beautiful song so many lines stand out from it the two that hit me the most in that moment it's also written from the perspective of god to us and one of the lines is everything you've ever needed is everything i am which just was an overwhelming idea to sit with and to experience and one of the last lines of the song is you don't have to you don't have to reach for me because this is where i am and i just wept and wept and felt this relational presence of the divine and of god pull over my entire body and it was like god came home and there's just something so healing about that and at first i didn't immediately start going to church and immediately call myself christian i didn't immediately do any of these things it's like whatever i experienced that's true and i'm gonna pursue and start to figure out how to orient my life around that because whatever i've been doing has not been fulfilling has not been meaningful has not been full of love or peace or joy but whatever that is i keep tapping into that and so i have every single day the first thing i do is listen to music that helps me connect with god and with that and it doesn't work every day it's not a magic trick it's not a three-step formula fuck are you sure i wish right and it does bring that connection fairly often yeah yeah and have you noticed like compounding effect like over time it's no oh beyond yes beyond yes oh my goodness the more you show up in the present the more you orient in that way what could change your life more than the deepest experience of every single ounce of you being fully and unconditionally loved i don't think there's anything and i think modern psychology is starting to catch up to that yeah something that's been known in the spiritual and religious communities for a long time and something that my dad taught me that i've started practicing to tap into that even more every day and i think that's something that i've learned a lot about myself is i sit and you can try it right now if you want i sit and close my eyes no music, no distractions i usually shut the door and i just imagine god smiling at me and god could be look like a person god could look like clouds or stars or just the energy of someone smiling at you with this deep peaceful smile and i think that's something that i've learned a lot about myself and i just sit there and i smile back and we sit in loving presence with each other and sometimes that brings emotions sometimes that feels hard to tap into and that can show where there's resistance or hesitation in me and i'm safe to bring that forward and sometimes i want to give god a hug again whether that's a hug or not it feels so vulnerable it is it feels like i'm giving my life away that's how i would describe it feels like an ungripping feels like everything i've ever feared is here and maybe some of the things you've always wanted maybe everything i've always wanted which is for it to not all be up to me hmm for me to be able to have a life that i can trust and have faith in the eternal outcome feels like the whole purpose is this you know it's like when you say this you don't have to reach for me because this is where i am i feel like i and maybe so much of the personal development world is like focused on how to find your purpose but it sounds like an even better question is how can i find god and that is where my purpose is it's been my experience because if you stay one layer up from that question it's like it always feels like the thing you're doing is wrong you know like this thing isn't bringing me fulfillment or this thing or this relationship but maybe it's not the things themselves it's your relationship to maybe i want to say something to you maybe i want to say something to you maybe i want to say that say that in a different way maybe it's not the things themselves but the place you're approaching those things from and nothing has been able to heal my motivations desires inadequacies fears anxieties like sitting in unconditional ever-present love for me and for the whole world hmm and sometimes i imagine giving god a hug whatever that looks and feels like and we just sit and breathe in each other's embrace sometimes i imagine god picks me up like a kid and puts me on his lap and i just lay my head against his shoulder against his chest and i don't know what to do sometimes i imagine god holding me like an infant like a mother looking down at her newborn child i'm looking up and there's just this divine love smiling down at me and if you let yourself sit in that and experience that i mean for me it's brought tears and sometimes revelations and sometimes just release so many times i know that once you ask me how i know what god is calling me to and it starts from that place because if we try to determine what our calling our purpose is in the grandiosity of our life or in the specificity of a moment not starting from a place of i am unconditionally and fully loved exactly how i am there's nothing i can do to increase that love there's nothing i can do to decrease that love that is the purest place of listening it's the purest place of receiving without filters it's the purest place of being and from that place i have learned how to notice how when someone says something and it stands out in a way that feels alive and spiritual in a way that other other words didn't yeah or a poem or a sign on the street or a thought that's coming to my head and there's not a science i would say it's more of an art of learning how to listen to god totally and i think if god is love and loving and patient and the fullest experience of a perfect parent that we all have desired for and no parent has ever lived up to i think there's a a patient experience of a perfect parent that we all have desired for and no parent has ever lived up to excited proud loving teacher guide listener and source of love on the other side cheering us on and it's one of many ways that i've been able to do that and i've been able to do that for a long time and i've been able to do that for a long time If you didn't do it to these, the poor, Naked, those in prison, you didn't do it for me. Because I think there's invitations to those where we have nothing to benefit from them and we can learn from the pain and suffering. Maybe that's one practice I would suggest everybody tries. Lean into your own pain and suffering and with the pain and suffering of those around you and just sit and be in it and be honest. And in your mind or out loud, you can talk to God through that or not, but pain seems to be a very shaping and powerful gateway as well. Final couple of questions for you. Is Jesus God? He said he was. Are you God? Am I God? I was saying he is God from the perspective of, you know, it reminds me of a saying from Ram Dass where he was talking to this guy and he said to the guy, the guy, I can't remember what the guy asked him, but his response to the guy was, the problem is that you think you're God, whereas I think everyone's God. So when you say Jesus said he was, was he saying he was and everyone is, or he is and you are not? Because I feel like Christianity has almost interpreted it from the perspective of Jesus is God and we are not God. We are so far. We are so far beneath it that we have to bow to Jesus versus another way. And maybe the way of a different type of spiritual belief is that Jesus was saying, I am God. And what he was saying is I am the source of God lives within me as it lives within you. And he is just living an exemplified version of what the ultimate expression of that divinity would be. He's maybe what some might call an ascended master. Or someone whose soul has been through so many lifetimes that he's transcended every form of the ego and he lives in infinite love. And he is the example of where we are all walking as souls, but that is in us too. How do you sit with that? It's a beautiful question. And I think people have been asking it since Jesus arrived. So you're in good company. And I think, I suspect that the deepest truth is not the truth. It's not one answer or the other. And so I'm going to break the duality of the question and we'll explore here. Something that seems to be true is that everyone has inherent value. And from the Bible's perspective, to whatever weight, I hold the Bible as having a meaningful amount of weight. And I don't put it at the same level as God, but as one of the texts that most consistently points us to God. Not that every interpretation of the Bible points us to God, but that what's actually there does. Of the image of God being in all of creation, in every person. So there is a reflection of God in all of us, a unique individual, inspired reflection of divinity of who God is inside of each of us. And I think this is where we get into mystery. And I think where the truth about God is so beyond what we're able to fully comprehend, especially as a this or that kind of question. Yeah. As people have wrestled with this, many Christians have come to Jesus as both fully human and fully God. And there's something about Jesus that shows that being fully human of the way that we are able to reach full union and connection with God in that oneness. In the book of the Bible called John, which is one of the accounts of Jesus, he says, something to the effect of, I pray for them that they would be one with you, God, as I am one with you. And there's moments where Jesus's identity is unique. How so? I think one of the most compelling understandings of like, why did Jesus come down? Is Jesus God? And all this is less about, was a man or a human able to be God and is more, would God be willing to become human to make things right? There's a lot of pain in the world. There's a lot of suffering. There's a lot of things that are not the way that they are meant to be. And if the parent creator originator of that, cares about the world, there is a certain level of anger. And when a child dies of cancer, or when a young woman is abducted and sold into human trafficking for sex slavery, that's not light pain or inconvenience. It is the deepest writhing of suffering and pain that points to, something about this isn't right. And God, how are you even allowing this to happen? And there's different passages, even in the Old Testament. So it's the same between the Jewish scriptures and the Christian scriptures, where God makes a covenant and a promise between people, those chosen people, the Jewish people, and God's self, saying, even when you are the one to break this covenant agreement between us, you won't be the one to take the suffering and my wrath. I will pay the price. In all other covenant agreements in that time in history, it would be the person who owed the debt that would have to repay it. And sometimes they would offer, my life is on the line if I don't repay this debt. And God in that moment, in the book of Genesis, with one of the founding fathers of the Jewish faith, God says, God, if really when you don't hold your end of the bargain, I will pay the consequence and I will suffer. And so, Jesus being God, so it's like Jesus Christ, there's the Jesus part of him that's fully human and there's the Christ that is the full divine. Yeah. Coming and being willing to come into human form to surrender and submit into being born in probably like a low income. Jesus was, a refugee escaping political violence at the age of two, going through all this to then die on a cross so that God could take the punishment and the consequences of anger for so much injustice and suffering in our world. But instead of putting that onto all the people, putting it onto God's self. I will take the consequences and the suffering instead of you who have earned it. And that is the ultimate loving sacrifice, I think, in the history of humankind. And so there's something where Jesus is unique and different because God, through Jesus, came down and became a human and became a human to take the consequences. There's obviously consequences like when we are not in alignment with the way things are meant to be. We suffer and we experience anxiety, but like God's wrath and anger of like, this is my beautiful creation I love so much and you've harmed it and destroyed it. That anger and wrath is pointed at God's self to take the consequence and the weight of that, that we don't have to and that's a free gift that we get to accept and live into. Wow. All right, folks. Wow. I have three questions that I want to bring down. We could expand these over a lifetime, over a full podcast, but I want you to give me the answer to the best of your knowledge. And it's not an answer maybe as it's going to open up a million more questions, but in like one to two sentences. What is sin? Such a good question. The popular version of sin, I would say, is far too one-dimensional and simple. The current operating definition is often like, I did something bad, so I messed up, so I deserve to be punished forever, but God made a way for me to not be punished forever. And there's some truth in that. I don't think it covers the whole picture. I think that sin can be, I did something that was wrong and hurtful and destructive. Sin can also be, someone did something to me that was wrong and hurtful and destructive and I carry the consequences and I carry the consequences and the effects of that could be trauma could be other things, right? Sin can be, there's systems in our world that don't value the things that are ultimately the most true of love and dignity and peace and value profit or domination or power, right? And sin can even be seen as just this fearful tendency I have to focus on myself and not others, right? There's just this bent I have that I'm healing from by receiving unconditional love, but there's just this tendency I continue to have. So that might be four dimensions of looking at sin rather than just one. Okay. We'll break those down over another episode. Two more. Who is the devil? This is an excellent question. There's sin. It seems to be things beyond explanation that are not working for love and joy and peace and wholeness and restoration. And in an American Western context, it feels like kind of woo-woo or whatever. But in many contexts, that's just a lived reality and consistent experience for people. The devil can be seen as the tempter and the tester. The devil can be seen as God's enemy. There's definitely the fullest definition there, but there's definitely experiences of deep darkness and suffering and pain and separation that I think are the opposite of what God intends and wants for us. And I don't know if we just stumble into those on our own. Okay. And the final one, and my hope is that with this question, I can, preempt episode two between you and I. Is AI the devil? Probably not. Okay. But. Fuck. Is AI the devil? Any technology or even human desire or word or action or deed. Can be used for building up and restoration and love and wholeness or for tearing down and destruction and horrific things. And I think that AI is the most powerful technology that humanity has ever stumbled into or tried to build themselves. And it'll be the ultimate test of what path we choose. And unfortunately, the power of AI is so significant that it's not like a sword where some people in one part of the world can choose it one way and some people in another part of the world can choose it another way. It seems like more of a collective human choice. More to come. But I do think there's hope and there's always love. Alex is saying thank you for coming on the show, mate. my pleasure love you brother I love you too mate thank you