001 Strength, speed, and power

Hello and welcome to the High Performance Physiology podcast. I'm Chris Beardsley, I'm here with my co-host Rob Moussery and we're going to talk about a number of physiological things relating to athletic performance and the strength training and other training methods that go into producing athletic performance. Now I'm going to ask Rob to introduce himself in a moment but before we do that I just want to talk a little bit about the actual purpose of this podcast because what we've seen in the industry is that there's a lack of physiology backing to a lot of the methods of training that we see or the methods of training that people use and there's this tendency really for people to talk about outcomes, talking about things like strength and you know sort of speed or power and things like that but not actually go one step below that and go okay well what actually is causing those increases in strength and there's an absolute world of information out there in the literature which I've spent you know kind of half a decade if not longer gathering and putting together and you know it's so usable it's really really usable for actually helping us understand that so the purpose of this series of a podcast we're hoping to kind of I do one a week if we can very short not going to go you know talking for hours but I'm hoping to bring you a sort of a bite-sized package of information about how to use physiology to understand training methods for improving athletic performance in a range of different sports and obviously I'll bring things that I've got and and I've got Rob here to sort of bring experience from from the sports that he's been involved with actually dovetail really really well because we've come from very very different backgrounds so with that Rob can you give a quick intro to your background and what you're doing right now? Oh yeah thanks Chris so primarily I work as a personal trainer and a strength coach out of Washington DC and Tysons Virginia so really serving with the DMV area and then my brother has one of our upstate New York's best Muay Thai gyms he's actually considered one of the best American Muay Thai kickboxers of all time and so out of that gym we work with tons of fighters MMA guys Muay Thai guys some jiu-jitsu and that and then in my own work in person I work with a variety of gem pop clients and athletes football players soccer players volleyball right now some semi-pro and then some people that are just interested in getting better at you know golf anything like that all those kind of fun like recreational sports yeah if you want to start us off go ahead Chris. Fantastic and that combat sports experience is going to be so valuable you know here because it's something that I have very very little contact with you know so it'd be fantastic to get your perspectives on some of those things so yeah so the the topic for today is going to be a pivotal one we were actually chatting before we came on this recording about how pivotal how important this is going to be it's going to be a real kind of reference episode for us basically what we're going to talk about is the overarching framework how to think about strength speed and power so these things are kind of talked about a lot in lots of different sports people say how to improve strength to improve you know performance in this sport how to improve speed to improve performance in this sport or they talked about power and how power has kind of good relationships with particular sporting performances and so it's like okay well these three things how are they related to each other and how can we think about them physiologically so basically the first thing we need to understand is that when we talk about an increase in strength increase in maximum strength it's an outcome that we've measured so I tend to kind of label that as an outcome or output now you won't necessarily see that terminology used a lot in the literature but I'm just kind of giving it a name so that we understand that it's not a physiological thing so some people think that they're like increasing strength like a computer game character is that oh my computer game character has 91 points of strength it's like I can increase strength it doesn't work like that you can't find strength like that it's a tested outcome you know so if I increase my strength it's a I test the increase and I show that it's increased fantastic but how has it increased well it must have increased by a set of adaptations that are sitting underneath that so if I increase muscle size that will contribute to the strength gain if I improve my ability to recruit motion itself will improve and there's all kinds of different adaptions and we'll do a whole episode I imagine in the future about exactly what improves maximum strength but just for today we'll just try to differentiate and say that the increase in strength must happen due to a series of adaptions because the strength gain itself is not the adaption I know sometimes you see in literature all kind of assume the strength gain is an adaption but it's not the adaption is the actual thing that's changing that we have inside our inside our central nervous system or inside the muscle wall attendant whereas the strength gain is the thing we measure externally to show that those adaptations are happening now you can do exactly the same thing for speed and just say okay well speed is improved my maximum speed is improved great fantastic well how did that happen well it must have happened due to these adaptations sitting underneath the surface so we've got these things like strength and speed which are fundamentally adaptions sorry fundamentally outcomes but not adaptions and then underneath those we have a series of adaptions that actually contribute to the improvements in the test qualities of strength and speed so we've got strength and speed and obviously they're fairly self-explanatory in the sense that maximum strength can be tested with a very heavy load in a in a sort of gym context or in a laboratory an isometric test and speed obviously is just the fastest speed that you can move it's fairly self-explanatory power is a little bit trickier and power is the one that we're going to kind of hope you know break some people's kind of frameworks by talking about this today because power is the multiplication of strength times speed a power equals force times velocity so the really important thing about that when you're talking about outcomes versus adaptations what you can see is that power is actually a second order up from strength and speed it's actually only ever going to be affected by multiplying strength sorry by improving either strength or speed you can't improve power directly which you can kind of improve power in a test if you kind of get coordination improvements but strictly speaking transferable power is never going to be improved by anything other than by increasing either strength or speed and that that really is kind of one of our big take-homes that we want to kind of talk about today which is that you can't actually you know improve someone's transferable power outputs by you know kind of trying to improve power directly you have to go either down the strength or the speed route and that really starts to give us something that we can work with practically because if I say well okay well what are the you know and again we'll talk more detail about these kind of ideas later on in another podcast but just in general most people kind of probably aren't going to argue with you if you say the best way to improve strength is to kind of train with heavy loads and use high forces it's kind of like that that tends to be the best way of doing those things similarly actually again and we'll do another episode in the future about this but you know speed you tend to get better at speed predominantly by working with those kind of really light or even unloaded situations and just moving as fast as you possibly can now the really interesting thing about this then is that if you kind of go well okay so power is a you know kind of a quality that can only be improved by other increasing strength or speed you can't increase it directly then why do people train with these sort of intermediate loads that maximize power output when that isn't going to increase speed very well it isn't going to increase strength very well and that's that's why I think I mean we talked about this Rob a long time ago and I'm sure your your programs have kind of reflected that now but you know it's like I do I do see a lot of people we're I'm going to train with 30 30 percent of one maximum going to train for maximum power outputs on this particular exercise I'm like well what do you think that's doing you know it's like it's not going to increase maximum strength very well and it's not going to increase speed very well so and you can't increase power directly because it has to be the product of strength and speed so you know how how is that how is that going to work and it's really interesting because there's this whole part of the research literature which is quite close to the you know mainstream view which is that if you want to improve power you train with a load that maximizes power output which typically speaking is more or less halfway in between strength and speed because if you look at the power velocity curve you kind of got this you know plateau the highest point the highest power you can get is roughly halfway between your maximum unloaded movement velocity and your maximum isometric force and that just can math and as a result people are training as far as they possibly can away from the thing that will maximally stimulate speed and or the adaptions that contribute to speed gains and the things that will maximally contribute to strength gains it's kind of like this perverse situation where it's like if you could figure out a way to train in the least effective way possible that will be it you know from a physiological perspective and I know you know talking with you talking with other people you know who've kind of tried to get people to understand this in the mainstream S&C community it's a really difficult you know her little tribe to overcome because people are like no no no I want to improve power so I'm going to do you know kind of 30% to one remarks so like just before we got on the pockets you were telling a little bit about how your programs now kind of moved towards kind of really polarizing you're kind of using maximum strength and speed is that is that right yeah yeah much more working towards just one end of the spectrum and then prioritizing just whatever the athlete needs of that you know given point in time good example working with fighters recently you know you always run into a lot of like old school stuff in fight sports and combat sports a lot of things people trying to improve punching power or punching speed stuff like that so you have all these old school ideas like you know kind of around like the power-ish end of the spectrum where you're doing like punching with weights and things like that even sometimes like high rep punching for endurance so that people would say your your shoulders don't get tired things like that and then the other end of the spectrum you have someone who might think if you just you know bench press heavy you just improve your force production a ton that is also going to get you where you want to go of course you know with punching things like that a lot of technique a lot of things that go into it mechanics and all that but in terms of just like training on one end or the other or doing that kind of goofy thing in the middle where you're punching with very light weights and just making yourself tired really you know I primarily focus on a lot more for like punching speed in that like the unloaded end of the spectrum just having people obviously going as fast as possible avoiding fatigue good crisp like you know clean striking techniques and that so then they're working at like an actual maximum velocity to improve that end of things and then generally I mean you know for fighters and that the strength then you're going to be doing enough you don't really run into too much where you have to like focus very very heavily on improving like your your maximum strength for the upper body limbs and that for punching so yeah you see that stuff all the time well and there's there's so many things we could unpack in in what you've said there I mean there's the fatigue aspect there's the motor learning aspects and the interactions between those kind of proximal to distal sequences I mean you mentioned there you're thinking less about the upper body more about the lower audience a huge topic for us to talk about in the future will be this idea of proximal to distal sequencing and how that actually works in the context of athletic movements like punching jumping throwing all that kind of stuff and we'll do that absolutely we'll do that but not today so I just want to kind of pick up on one thing that you said though because obviously there's so much there but I'm just going to isolate one thing this idea that you know while there are some people who are thinking still that they can train for power directly which as I say you can if you are trying to improve power in a particular exercise so like if you're doing a limb pick weightlifting and you're trying to improve a weight in pick weightlifting performance then yeah absolutely you know the the load that you're kind of trying to maximize power if you want to move that to as close as the you know to your competition weight as you can but because the coordination related factors are going to make a make a difference but if you're trying to create transferable improvements in power output then you lose that coordination benefit you can't really make that work you kind of got to go down the strength or the speed route for the training outcome in order to create the power increase that you're trying to create in the athletic context you didn't mention that some people think that you can maybe just do the heavy stuff just train for strength and that will automatically increase speed and that's kind of like another thing that I wanted to tick off in this in this first episode which is this idea that you know oh yeah we can just train for strength and you know that will actually increase speed automatically because force equals mass times acceleration so two things the force times mass force equals mass times acceleration argument really is quite easy to kind of overcome because basically when people say that oh yeah we can just accelerate with a greater force and we can just kind of you know obviously therefore move faster because the acceleration that we're creating is bigger because the force is bigger the problem is that as you start accelerating and you start moving more quickly the force you can generate drops according to the relationship between your force and your max velocity as steep line between your maximum force and your maximum velocity so we have what's called a very steep force velocity profile so your maximum mode of velocity is actually quite slow but you've got this enormous you know kind of level of force you can exert at a slow speed then as you start to move in your jump for example you start to hemorrhage you know force production because you're moving quicker and your force just tangs it's like you know we joked before the podcast it's like people think that just because you know force equals mass times acceleration they can produce massive forces at high velocities just because they can produce a high force at a slow velocity if you could produce a massive force at a fast velocity but to jump over a house it's like it just doesn't work like that you know you can't you can't produce high forces at high velocities you produce high forces at slow velocities and then depending on your maximum velocity if your max velocity is high then you can with you can keep your force high as you start to get towards high velocities and that's that's the the interesting bit about having a high speed if you've got a low max speed you can't make your force continue being high for high velocity it just drops to zero really really quickly and of course that means you don't get to very high velocities because your acceleration just drops as soon as you start moving now and then the additional point of course is that if your max velocity is quite low you can't move faster than that as you cross bridges just won't cycle and faster so you get to this kind of max speed and just kind of stop there there's some really really cool vertical jump in resource that's how I'll kind of cover another episode which shows this really clearly that people kind of almost subconsciously adjust their counter movement depths in a vertical jump to get their max velocities at the end of the takeoff phase they kind of move their counter movement depth around a little bit to make sure that they reach their max velocity because you don't really want to reach your max velocity before the end of your you know kind of takeoff period when you're coming upwards in the concert phase because you just be kind of you know burning energy and not really getting any faster and you just kind of wasting your time and not really jumping as high the the kind of point here is though that you know the whole f because I may argument which really is dead in the water you just can't be made it's not really a thing however there are going back kind of 20 years or so um 20 years what year are we in um maybe a little more than that i'm going off you know at least kind of 20 years ago perhaps maybe even 30 there was some research came out that showed that maybe intent to move quickly was the only thing you needed to stimulate speed related adaptations you could just move a heavy weight and then try and move as quickly as you can and that would then trigger all the speed related adaptations that was really interesting because it was kind of this state that came out to nowhere almost kind of contradicted a lot of the previous kind of iso kinetic research that been done in dynamometry showing that you know strength games were pretty velocity specific really so it was kind of an interesting one but it countered a lot of people's attention my skeptical point of view is because people kind of went oh yeah we can just do heavy squats and forget everything else now it's like yes just do what we want to do and forget everything else no but obviously the interesting thing was it did kind of create a whole sort of training philosophy where people just said always go train heavy and that will actually in as long as we intend to move quickly and train explosively that will actually produce speed related adaptations now physiologically and again we can do an episode on speed later on you know but physiologically that's just not what it looks like is going to happen because we can see the stimuli that produce improvements in most final shorting velocity for example or recoding or any of those things that go into improving speed are very velocity specific you just can't create the stimulus for those adaptations to happen and they should actually move in quickly ultimately with the ology perspective will be hang on a minute that study doesn't make sense now the interesting thing is the same research group actually did a a follow-up to that study because the original norm was done as a sort of a within subject design the problem with within so within subject designs are great for hypertrophy studies so basically if you've got a within subject design it means that one arm trains with one training program the other arm trains with a different training program and you kind of control the variability within your sample by you know kind of sort of meaning taking the variability inherent to the person out of your study which is great for hypertrophy horrible strength gains though because you've got the cross-education effect so you both limit it stronger in the same way because and so you have this issue with with the cross-education effect in the within subject design that they used in that original study it showed intent in that second paper wasn't it the second paper actually used well i think it was a phd student of the original researcher yes i think that's what that's what it looks like to me when i when i read and i read the blurb the describes who was doing the experiment so basically the same team and the important thing was the follow-up was done as separate groups so you had no cross-education effect and they found that the training with a fast movement and training with a slow movement both with the intent to move as quickly as possible actually produced totally different effects the actual movement velocity was a factor that drove the improvements in speed so what we can see is really that kind of flashing the pan's sort of idea that just intending to move as quickly as possible would produce speed rate adaptations wasn't really valid the physiology never really supported it data in iso kinetics never really supported it it was i think driven really by this you know kind of i think the popularity of that study was blown out all proportion because people wanted it to be true yeah you know and it just isn't so you know kind of we ended up with this sort of two sort of main arguments as i say the whole f equals i may argument which is literally just silly and then secondly this idea the intent to move quickly and that was totally valid it based on a real study with a limitation that you know the research team themselves talked about and actually went away and fixed it's just unfortunately was the delay i think of about i forget how many years maybe even 12 years before 10 years yeah something like that yeah so it was a big delay before the kind of the fix of the fix but the kind of the sort of the reassessment of that issue without the limitation of the original study was done so you know ultimately you know where we are is that you know speed requires generally a fast movement to stimulate those speed rates adaptions you know strength requires those high force related uh sort of uh aspects will work out to produce an improvement in strength the adaptions that drive that improvement in strength so you know we can see that yeah you know heavy benching i mean arguably not because you know there's potential digital sequencing to think about but just take that out of the equation for the moment you know if you're just coming at this uh you know from a very kind of um you know basic point of view the the heavy strength training is kind of doing this the force aspects of it you kind of want to add the speed stuff as well and that will naturally improve transferable power really really effectively training for max power just isn't going to do that because as i say you know you're training as far as you wait as far as possible away from the thing from both things that you're actually trying to improve of the same types you just wound up with like a not so good strength maintenance program that doesn't really do much for me and i think there are i mean don't you know i i do think there are situations where a little bit of power training can be really interesting because as you say you get a maintenance type of a of an effect you know and i mean primarily you know i think this is one of those things where i would probably think about using a little bit of power training in season perhaps maybe you've got soccer players and they've got really congested schedules they're playing all over the place and doing so many things a little bit of power training probably isn't the worst thing in the world in those situations because you know what else are you going to do it's it's really difficult to do very much but equally again there's so many things we can do in more detail and unpack all these ideas but you know when you look at things like detraining of adaptions the the neural adaptions don't detrain very quickly at all and obviously the power training is is going to be a little more on the neural side because it's going to struggle to create very much peripheral adaption because it just doesn't have you know that stimulus capacity so it's like you know many of the things that we'd be looking to try and maintain just won't really be maintained that well by power training and many of the things we don't need to maintain because they're actually going to stick around it's like why are we doing this so again we can unpack some of that stuff a little bit more in future episodes but you know really the purpose today is to talk a little bit around this you know this idea of you know adaptions are different from the outcomes that we're testing strength and speed how their own adaptions power doesn't their power is determined by the strength and the speed you know you can improve either strength or speed and that's going to improve power but you can't improve power directly and then of course this idea you know that you know strength can't improve speed because ultimately it just is one of those things that um you know it is dependent on the velocity and we are moving so if you're trying to you know people are arguing this idea that you can okay I'm just going to improve strength and that's going to make me faster but ultimately they're not remembering that that strength value I've got changes with the velocity faster they go the more the strength decreases if they aren't if they don't also have that high level of speed in the in the in the kind of the equation in the training programs so let's talk a little bit more practically let's talk about you know some of the programs that you've been writing I mean you mentioned already that you've got you know kind of you know strength and speed components in your fighters programs talk about a different athlete class give us some give us some other examples yeah I mean another good example a guy I've been working with lately an American football player and you know already pretty I would say force dominant big guy strong guy um when I took over training him it was uh you know looking through the program he really didn't have any any relevant speed work and the training that he did have was so focused on improving size like just hypertrophy kind of classic hypertrophy stuff um you know like even had some like super sets specials things like that because the whole idea which is get him I guess as big as possible but you know he wanted to be faster he needed to be faster on the field and so like looking through the training it was not a lot of like sprint exposures or anything through the week no real jumpboard or anything like that and definitely you know due to the the structure and the the fatigue from the other things no time through the week where he was going to actually be hitting you know max velocities either just not training it at all or just not capable of actually hitting it like when he was on the field or you know anytime in the gyms practically I mean it was pretty easy first you know the focus was on so like almost it's always like you kind of those those kind of clients are amazing because they come to you and they give you their existing training program you look at it and go I could just ask you to stop doing all this and you get better on your own I mean it's like that was honestly that was probably more than half of it was taking all the fluff out you know no sets of 15 with stretch position partials at the end ouch ouch and just making kind of like the most like minimum dose of each thing to start so starting the sessions with you know some acceleration sprint work and jump work things like that that's so important that's so important I mean again there's so much we can unpack here I mean like probably have to do other episodes on this but like you're putting the speed work first straight away that's that's you know that's that's telling us that you know you're valuing that in a state where before we got further into the workout we're creative fatigue so you you put it there in the beginning where you know that it's going to create that stimulus yeah just always by itself not really big fan of contrast training and I know we've talked about that and you're not either you know just I mean not the worst thing you can do but at the same time if you really want those speed adaptations you know you want to be as fresh as possible and just have that right at the beginning of the session and then everything else after it and then in terms of the strength work you know lowering the rep ranges a few more reps in reserve taking time to let kind of he'd be running the other program for you know weeks and weeks months in fact so kind of letting all that fatigue dissipate and then actually being able to express you know his max velocity and then kind of went from there added in a few more things also more direct like sprint exposures reef ones kept the jumping in you know I kind of use that in the warm-up also just as a test basically if it's improving you know you're on the right track if it starts going down something is not good yeah I mean as like again you you not only are you valuing the speed by putting it first in each session but you're also you know as you say dropping the rep range to have your loads leaving reps in reserve because you're thinking about the next kind of training session that's going to come later in the week and you want to make sure that there's not post work post work out fatigue still there in that next session because trying to avoid that presence of fatigue because you know ultimately again as we said as I was explaining earlier we will do future episodes on on things like speed in exact you know kind of how it works but fatigue is one of those things that you know really does interfere with speed related adaptations probably much more so in fact than it does for things like strength related adoption I mean we talk about how fatigue impairs hypertrophy but you know really in the ground scheme of things if you're looking at this yeah yeah you're looking at this thing from like a macro lens you know fatigue doesn't really create that much of a problem for hypertrophy unless you're really being very silly you know whereas fatigue you know kind of just obliterates the possibility of a speed related action it's just like gone I mean it just isn't going to happen I think that's a big reason why you know like especially to in in like the soccer uh kind of field you know like the the EU especially in Europe they're really into their soccer they have a lot of work being done on this loads and loads of researchers and S&C coaches trying to figure out how to make their athletes faster and I keep kind of occasion just saying have you thought about you know making them less tired no we don't want to try that we what are you doing to try that okay you notice that with athletes all the time too because they so many of them love working so hard sure and they think that those programs that like just run you into the ground other programs that are going to make you better and so often that is just absolutely you know of course not the case um yeah and you just you're trashed and you're training you're trashed in the season and then you know you wonder why like all of a sudden like overuse injuries and all that kind of stuff creeps up as well just totally absolutely so so yeah so you know in in terms of those programs that you're writing you're you're thinking about speed as a priority you're putting it first in the training session to avoid that fatigue problem within the session you're also thinking about between session fatigue and accumulation so you know you're kind of looking at the rest of the workout I mean how do you think about ease injury though so like you know again we've got in episodes we can do on this but you know like one of the really big challenges for any S&C coach is always like I've got my athlete I've identified that they probably do need some eccentric learning for maybe maybe it could just be muscle strain injury prevention or it could be that actually I've kind of got a particular framework and I want to you know maybe try and improve a particular physical quality it could be sprinting I mean I think that probably does work you know so I do want to put some eccentric learning in there how are you currently working around that fatigue problem so a good example of the football player actually is using like any kind of eccentric like super max eccentric stuff for him and for anyone really always at the end of the training session put as the very last exercises so that the fatigue there won't interfere with anything else and then really just kind of like absolute rock bottom volumes just you know couple sets one or two reps couple times a week really really just the minimum there because otherwise I mean you and I have talked about you'll lose those adaptations from eccentric training so quick you know a couple weeks and they're gone so sure you know some people will do it off season do a bunch of it build it up for a while and then just take it out for you know the foreseeable future and then at that point you don't really get any of the benefits and for him yeah it was maybe a bit of like hand strain injury prevention and then of course like increasing sprint speed it's kind of the goal so yeah but just really just a couple sets of a couple reps and then just leave it at that you know you don't need more than just those first few reps anyways no absolutely I mean and that's that's a really interesting point there's so many things we're kind of introducing in this episode I mean we've probably got like 30 episodes already planned out now as a result of just talking about this stuff but yeah so one two really important things here is that firstly the the dose response of most of the eccentric are related to the option so you know things like increases in fascicle length increases in you know kind of the motor improvement improvements that occur that are specifically eccentric phase which is a really fascinating topic in and of itself but broadly speaking eccentric adaptations tend to be you know fairly non responsive to volume so you know we've got this kind of curve that we talk about for say hypertrophy dose response in conventional strength training you know and you can kind of go up to you know sort of four five six maybe eight sets in a workout and still get you know e-count a little bit more benefit from that workout you know and that's that's not not thinking about what the week looks like for a moment but just the singleization you know whereas eccentric doesn't work like that it tends to plateau a lot earlier so you kind of don't really get as you're saying you don't really get much benefit from bashing set after set after set of eccentric loading anyway so you might as well do just one or two sets and then similarly within the set if you kind of and again stimulating rep terminology hopefully is familiar to people on this podcast assuming as we were joking before the podcast probably nobody's going to listen to this apart from people who already know who I am so it's kind of not not really going to be unfamiliar to most people but just in case it isn't stimulating reps basically when we're doing a normal strength training set it's kind of an elastic five reps you know inner set to failure or if you're doing sets with reps and reserve you just chop one of the reps off water whereas eccentric loading the stimulating reps are at the beginning as long as it's a maximal effort because basically the only thing that's happening you've got max effort max recruitment from the start you've got a decent level of attention from the start so all that's happening is you're getting fatigue mechanisms and you can just carry on creating more fatigue if that's what you want to do it's not very helpful but you know so you might as well just do a few reps you don't have to do like you know three four five six seven eight right you could just do singles or doubles or whatever you know and I do know some people working at reasonably high levels in sport in various countries in the world you know who've come back to me having kind of worked with me a little bit in the past they've come back every so so often maybe every six months or a year and said hey you know we've dropped our you know Nordic rolling down even more you know and we're down to like single reps and you know two or three sets and it's still working really well so I think you know there's this really interesting possibility that we could just really bring those volumes down to incredibly low levels and get reasonable kind of results and you know the data do support that you know there's some really low volume Nordic studies out there showing pretty much the same effects as high volume Nordic studies whether what the frequency needs to look like I'm not entirely certain there's some interesting data out there you know but ultimately I'd be happy with twice a week but maybe people can make it work once a week I don't know and there is some data suggesting it might work with once a week but ultimately qualitative responses we're just trying to bring the volumes and reps and sets down as low as we possibly can and that sounds like what that's what you're doing yeah yeah and and usually I guess I go in twice a week I'm not uh I don't I don't really have an experience doing it with you know someone just once a week I don't know how well that would work so not going to speak to that no exactly but on the topic of eccentric training as well and a topic for a future podcast but some of the stuff we had gone over um for improving quench strength the grab point strength would be a fun one so oh yeah absolutely now there's there's lots of there's lots of very very cool things we can talk about but so that's basically kind of the shape of things I think and what we wanted to do was introduce this idea of outcome versus adaptions introduce strength and speed and how power is different from strength and speed and just kind of really talk a little bit to how strength can't improve speed you know to the same extent that speed can improve speed speed training can improve speed it's just because you know ultimately strength is just doing something strength training is just doing something different it's improving max fourth production which doesn't apply in high velocity situations anywhere near as much as it applies in low velocity situations and then really you know hopefully we've given some good examples for people uh to understand how those things might apply in the context of a couple of different strength training programs you know I think that's that's been a good good episode for us I think that's a good way to start this project cool so without any more kind of rambling let's call it today there that's been a great experience Rob thanks for that yeah and hopefully to all our listeners our new listeners out there hopefully we'll see you all again next week