The Conveners - Belinda Steward

Hi, I'm Andy King. Welcome to The Convenors Podcast, where we explore how the leisure, sport and physical activity sector collaborates with health and social care in the UK to enhance the nation's health and reduce inequalities. Each episode I'll be joined by guest presenters and experts across the sector to highlight achievements, identify opportunities and shine a light on the diverse perspectives that will drive us forward. This podcast is proudly supported by Future Fit for Business and Moover. Belinda, lovely to see you and thank you for joining us on The Convenors today. Really looking forward to this. It's been a while trying to get you on, so good work. And what I've got to try and do is not ask you all the same stuff that Guy Griffiths asked you, haven't I? On My Dream Gym, which I've just been, I've listened to it previously because I listened to all the Guy's stuff, but I've just listened to it again just to get a bit of it. But yeah, very good. So yeah, well, I'm sure we'll mix things up a little bit and cover some slightly different ground. So nice to see you anyway. Likewise. And yeah, lovely to be here. You're right. It has taken a while, but I'm delighted to be here and always happy to talk about the pool in Miami if that comes up. I feel like I could do with it right now. Yeah. Yeah. Dead right. Dead right. Okay. Well, lots to cover, so we'll get started. But yeah, if you can give us a little bit of your background, which is obviously slightly different, a bit of your background and how physical activities played a role, both sort of privately and professionally, and to bring us up to date of where you are now. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So my career has been predominantly in hospitality. So a bit of restaurants, hotels, pubs, right through until the last couple of years, to be honest. And people talk to me about why leisure? You know, why have you moved into this sector? Why have you left hospitality? And it's really interesting because I don't see it that way at all. I actually see this as an extension of hospitality. And I was talking to Clive Chesser yesterday. So Clive obviously now at Pure Gym. And we only realized a few years ago that we've actually followed each other's careers. So I worked out in Latin America with Haagen-Dazs, and so did he. And then he was at Green King, and then so was I. So I think the two are inextricably linked. So for me, it's not a big leap and a whole different sector. It's just an extension of hospitality. We have people serving people to give them great experiences. And in this case, it's to get great physical outcomes. And I think through my career, I've done a lot of traveling, I've done a lot of the antisocial hours, I've done a lot of the weekends, all of the stuff that comes with the industry that hospitality is. And I think that's where sport and physical activity has really helped give me some balance. And just to have that, that kind of, you know, when you're traveling and staying in hotels the whole time, actually, what you really want to do is have a bit of normality, you want to have a bit of getting up and, I don't know, running on a treadmill when it's too hot outside or swimming in the pool. And it comes from, I guess, my childhood, I was really, really lucky that I went to a state school as the local comprehensive, where we had great facilities, and we had great PE teachers. And we have that ability to get involved in everything from tennis and rounders and netball and hockey and swimming, which I appreciate not everybody gets. And I think that gave me the foundation. Excellent. Yeah, thanks for that. Yes, interesting. It reminds me of sort of the old Whitbread days where David Lloyd were part of that camp. And they had obviously various different sort of branded restaurant chains and things like that. And there was a massive crossover then. And I suppose, I remember that time, it was really about after sort of physical activity sector, for want of a better term, raising our standards, particularly of customer service to better meet sort of hotels and restaurants, if you like. From your perspective, do you think we've still got a way to go on that? Or do you think we've managed to level that up a little bit in terms of service standards? Well, I've just hired a director of customer experience. So I think, and she's from the retail and hospitality sector. So I think there's a ways to go. And I define it by we've got brilliant people who are passionate about what they do. They just care so much. You know, we've got 8,000 people who work in places leisure, 2,000 lifeguards, that they're committed, they're dedicated. But I think as a sector, we probably are a bit more functional. So we might think more about the position of the treadmill or what we're doing in the studio, as opposed to the customer journey and the importance of feelings, the importance of that warm embrace, the importance of understanding people's motivations and why they're with us. And when we know that one of the biggest barriers to coming into a gym or a leisure center is accessibility from actually stepping over that threshold. And if we can make that easier, if we can make that more seamless, because people feel welcome and safe, and they know they're going to be looked after, they're more likely to trust us and take that leap. So I think that we've got an opportunity to catch up with hospitality. And one of the reasons that hospitality is so hot on customer experience, it was the, for me, it was the rise of the review sites. So very few people make a choice about where they're going to eat, where they're going to go on holiday, what they're going to do, where they're staying without checking review sites. So you're going to believe the words of people you've never met, you've no idea if they're anything like you, but that will be a deciding factor. And we don't have that as much, but that kind of forced everybody to up their game of hospitality. And I think we can do the same in this sector. Yeah, it's interesting. Are there any other sort of comparators that come to mind? I mean, it's an interesting one about the review sites, because, for example, there's the, we'll come on to this later on, but the weight loss drugs, and people are saying, well, they actually pretty much guarantee results. And something that our sector hasn't been particularly great on, arguably, is actually getting results for people in terms of tangible outcomes. And then we can sort of debate that to the coast. But is there anything like that, that you think is a clear sort of differentiator between the sectors? I think it's understanding motivations, and understanding what people are expecting when they come to a restaurant or a hotel. So I think I'm not sure we're, we always understand what people are trying to get out of, you know, taking out a gym membership or coming swimming. And I'm not sure that individuals are necessarily sure on what they want to get out of it. But I think that's a conversation. And, you know, we all know that we're more likely to stick at something where we're getting results, whatever those results might be. So again, I think that goes back into understanding the customer, understanding the customer journey. It's not one size fits all, everyone's got different motivation. And basically, just by asking people and being curious, we'll find that. So, so yeah, I think there's this stuff to pick up from that, from hospitality that we can easily implement into this sector. And again, we're not starting from a base of it's not great in terms of customer service. But I think there's things that we can do in a more systematic way that will provide a better experience for everybody, and ultimately, retain members because that helps us commercially. But it also helps people with with improving mental activity. Yeah, well said. So that sort of probably leads me on to technology and stuff, because it sounds like that AI and technology more generally is going to be a central plank of that. Is that something that you're, you're seeing as a big opportunity to improve things? Yeah, so I think part of it is from the customer journey. And, you know, there's nudges and prompts when somebody hasn't opened an email or hasn't been to the centre. I mean, this is not new stuff. None of this is new. But I think we can be much better at doing it at tracking and, and having those kind of interventions during the entire customer journey is a really big thing. And then I'm probably judging people on myself, but most people are competitive. And we like to track progress. Sorry, if I am projecting. But you know, I, we measure things, and we like to see improvements. And, you know, we just done a tie up with eGym as part of our retention programme. Because again, if you can have if you can easily track your progress and your progression, and then you can start having conversations with people about what it is you're trying to achieve. And you know, two way conversations about about why it's important to do strength training when you're a female in your 30s, the stuff that we might not have conversations about. So I think definitely using technology from that perspective as well. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So in terms of the purpose of places, do you see, and forgive me, I'm not sure in your time if you've changed, I don't know, the mission statement, the purpose or anything like that, the strategy, or is that something that you're working on and do you see recent influences like, I don't know, the NHS 10-year plan or anything like that, is that likely to change the strategy or even the purpose of places, do you think? Yeah, it's a really pertinent question and really timely. So we're just working through this now. And one of the things that keeps resonating is around changing lives and saving lives. And this comes from, you just talk to the teams and the examples that come out and the lifeguards again, this might be the first job that somebody has, really well trained and qualified. And I'd say, sadly, it's probably not a week goes by where we don't have somebody having a cardiac incident in one of our centres. And because of the nature of the training and because of the prompt action, we are saving most people who have not been in a leisure centre or a hospital wouldn't be saved. So that really comes into the saving lives. But we're changing lives as well by giving people confidence through exercise. We're helping them live in a way that they want to live, live longer. We're helping older people thrive, not just survive. And so I think there's something around that. And then in terms of kind of our direction of travel, I always look at it as like three pillars in terms of what we do. We've got the four walls, the physical assets of the leisure centres. We manage about 100 on behalf of local authorities. And that's kind of the bread and butter. That's almost the commercial vehicle that enables us to then do more out in our communities. So either the communities that surround our leisure centres or communities where we might not have a leisure centre, but we have places for people, housing communities. So it gives us that opportunity to take stuff out to people who wouldn't ordinarily come into our leisure centres and get them into physical activity as well. So we'll have programmes such as Parkinson's, dementia, move through menopause, everything that we can get, wellbeing walks that we can take out. And it just helps people who, again, the barriers to coming into a leisure centre will still get the benefits of it. So I think we're moving into a healthier bit, supporting the health of the nation effectively. And the NHS 10 Year Plan, again, really interesting to see the direction of travel. Some really good things came out of that. I honestly think that the sector we're in could feature more highly. I think the fact that physical inactivity is the fourth largest killer in the UK. One in six deaths are attributed to lack of physical activity. And guess what? We're here. We are here and we're able to support. So the more we can be highlighting what we can do and how we can support the NHS and just people in our communities live healthier and fitter lives. So I think I'm on a personal mission to have a voice to say, it's here. We just need to join the dots and we can do something more. Good, well, we'll come on to that in a minute because I think having a voice and collaborating, I'll get it right in a minute, collaborating across the sector is something I want to touch on with you as well. But before we do that, I'm interested actually in terms of procurement. A couple of reasons. One, you're quite right. You mentioned things like working in the community, blue and green spaces, that type of thing, as well as the four walls of leisure centres and stuff. But often, I don't know about you, we find that contracts are for operating the centres and yet, increasingly lately, the pressure on operators is to actually do more in the community. However, there's often no funding to allow that to happen. So the expectation is sort of out of kilter with the contract and that causes all sorts of tension. And then there becomes a procurement exercise where, again, recent procurement, it tends to be, well, actually, we are going to put into the specification that you do something in the community, but quite often, it's a bit woolly and not to, so see, that's my perception anyway. You might put me straight. But what's been, in general, in procurement, what's been your experience coming into the sector and finding what you found in procurement? So in terms of tendering for new contracts, it's an onerous process, isn't it? It's a long and onerous process. My fear is that it's a race to the bottom in terms of going in, in a really low-margin business anyway that we just compete to be the lowest that we can be. And that ultimately, to your point, doesn't help anybody provide the additional services that we need to provide. And I think, from a local authority's perspective, less than 20% of people are coming into leisure centres and gyms. So if I were them, I'd be looking at it and saying, what can we do with our operators to service not just the 20%, but the 80%. And I think that's how we try to work with our local authorities, with existing contracts, and then when we're going through the bidding process, is to say, what is it we're trying to achieve? And how can we best do that? Because ultimately, everybody benefits if everybody's getting access to it. So I don't think it's easy. I understand the pressure the local authorities are under, and they're under immense pressure, and we will do as much as we can, and we'll be as creative as we can. But again, I think it's, if we're able to have the leisure centres as almost the profit providers, I'm not ashamed of saying the word profit, because that's basically the enabler to do things that add social value. So we can reinvest, and we're not for profit, so not for dividend, social enterprise, so we reinvest. And that's how we're growing our healthy communities business, because we're investing in that in order to, kind of, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of, you go out, you find people, you bring them in, and then that enables you to do more and more and more as the flow will. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely right. And in terms of the agency model, is that something, how do you see the agency model? How do you view that? I think it's an inevitable thing, isn't it? I mean, it's contracts, there's tenders that we're bidding for that are requiring it. I think it's just an inevitable, inevitability that will happen. It means that we've got to change the way we operate. So I think it will be a lot of hard work at the start until we get used to the signs on the walls and the operating practices and the small print, but it just seems an inevitability that's happening. And maybe that helps us to be more equal in how we compete. So I think it's just something we're leaning heavily into. Yeah, okay, good, thanks for sharing that. So just to go back to your point about the, I suppose that the government and not really picking us up, you have to look quite hard in the 10-year plan. You can sort of make inferences and go, oh, well, we're sort of in there, ish, maybe, if you look at it this way. And maybe the sort of activation plan or delivery plan is gonna be a bit more specific, let's hope so. But in terms of, just again, you coming into the sector, what have you made of the sort of sector positioning or proposition to government, if you like, and the way that we collaborate or not, as the case may be? Any thoughts? Yeah, so this is an interesting one, having come out of the hospitality industry, having gone through COVID, and how pubs open before gyms opened is a half a business review. You have to look at that and say, how did that happen? And that came about through brilliant collaboration. And so I sat on the accommodation CEO forum. So at the time, I was running a portfolio of pubs with rooms. So, you know, it might be a pub with six rooms above it, and I'm sitting at the same table as the CEO of Hilton, Marriott. it's ACOR Premier Inn and we all had different needs and different requirements and different requests but we understood that if we were going to open the sector again and if we were going to you know I think there's one in five people in this country work in hospitality so or employed by hospitality so that's a lot of people that you're responsible for if we're going to get the sector open we've got to collaborate and agree where we're going to compromise and we're not all going to like everything but actually we will all benefit if we work together and the power of that was evident again in terms of you know we reopened before golf courses I think which again it seemed bonkers at the time but but that's what we did and how we did it so I've seen how collaboration can work really really well and trust me we were we were competitors so we're we're arch rivals we're competitors but they're not mutually exclusive and so I think there's an opportunity for us to collaborate more and it doesn't mean to say that I won't be competing on the next big contract that's up for tender and and I see some of it coming through and you know it's a complex sector we've got the private operators the public operators the independents but I feel that we've got to present as a united sector if the government is going to be able to understand what we do and you know I was in I was lucky enough to be at a round table number 10 round table last week with Anthony McNay who's the business champion for for sport and there's 10 of us around the table and and you recognize the the responsibility you have with being around that table because we are representing you know 600,000 people employed in this sector and and obviously everybody else who gets the benefit from it so yeah I think that's the opportunity for us to demonstrate what we can do we're not just gyms you know there's a whole wealth of it um yeah one of my colleagues talked about there's 2,500 activities that take place in their leisure centers and you know the response back was ministers don't necessarily MPs don't necessarily understand what you do meant that will only change if we make that happen we can't sit around wondering why they don't we've got to make it happen and you know how we do that is it's in our gift and if we make it easier for people to understand you know if your reference point of the leisure center is 50 years ago when you learned to swim and they were cold and dark and you went through the foot we all remember that if that's your current thought process then it's it's incumbent upon us to change that so I think you know yes I prefer that everybody understood what we did whether it be in the NHS whether it be in in government but I also acknowledge that they don't and therefore either we moan about it or we do something about it and if we can work together and show a united front and make it easy to join the dots as to how we can be part of the solution then I think we'll get further yeah I hear here basically just in terms of I'm not asking you to solve the sector's issues just on a short podcast but who might actually lead that Belinda in your view how might be the first steps to actually address what you've just said there I think I think we're not very good at all coming together I think we kind of compartmentalize and we stay in our our sectors and we almost compete against each other and and and and again I get the competition in terms of you know if you it's like pubs I've got 15 pubs within a 15 minute walk of me trust me they're all competing they're all competing for my pound we we will have competition and we need to compete but again we we not we should be coming together and saying 16.9 percent according to the UK Actual Deloitte report have gym or leisure centre memberships therefore there's almost 84 percent don't therefore for the first time ever in my working life and I always get this the wrong way because I've never said it before but potential demand outweighs supply I mean I've never said those words and therefore let's all go out to work together and not silo you know and you know we've all heard the a pure gym opens everyone's like oh my god everyone's going to go there let's lower our prices it's ridiculous there's a place for all of us and there's so much more for us to do so I think probably as operators we've just got to be a little more collaborative in in working together and again you know we're going to have slightly different priorities but for me ultimately we have a responsibility and a privilege to get people more active so that they live healthier lives because ultimately the NHS it's on its knees already it's not there's not funding that's coming from it so if we can do the prevention bit we'll all benefit yeah totally agree well let's see because you're the third person today that I've interviewed and three people have said about improving the collaboration to be honest so it's yes it's quite it's quite interesting I think there's a real willingness to do it and it's it's it's how do we do it in you know I suppose working with the the structures that are already set up to try and help us to do that and it's not quite working as it is it needs to be I think as the general gist of what's coming over just on another one and again this is this is fascinating getting your insight and and perception of the sector Sport England how how have you found Sport England since since you've come into the sector I thought that's quite a general question but I'll just leave it like that and see see what you pick up I so I think I've been quite curious since coming into the sector I think I've spoken to lots of people I think I've been out there I think I've I've kind of lifted lids on lots and lots of things I've been pretty nosy and quite bullish in in in literally being out there because I want to learn uh primarily and I'm running a business so that's typically what you do rightly or wrongly I'm not sure I understand what Sport England do and and and that's not a criticism but I I just have not been able to kind of navigate Sport England and and again I'll put that down as my responsibility to do that but I haven't found it it as easy to do that as I might have done some other things and and you know when you're new into stuff you you kind of follow the line of least resistance so um yeah so I guess that that's a note for myself to uh to try and figure it out a bit more but yeah I I'm not really sure I I get the connection um yeah no no and that's fine I think I think well first of all you're not alone um that's that's for sure um and I think I detect obviously there's a change at the top you know the chief exec Tim Tim's leaving and there's going to be a effectively a civil servant brought in to run it and that that you can sort of draw conclusions and I know we're all drawing conclusions about what that means so I think there's probably a bit of change in the offing so we'll we'll see what what happens there um but yeah interesting interesting one and to to be honest I think with my GM active hat on an operator's hat on Sports England has been somewhat removed from us um and it's been quite difficult to be able to plug in because they've sort of gone down this this um a route of saying look you know it's not about facilities it's about you know and we you know you've said it earlier we've all said well we get that we totally understand but there's a misalignment arguably between the contracts we're currently sat on and what we'd love to do more of but we're not actually um encouraged to do that through through the contractual situation so if we can't afford it it's it's a bit of a tough one for us to do so I think there's an understanding that there needs to be a little bit more collaboration again between Sport England and operators and a better understanding so you know generally I think you're quite right to go you know a bit a bit more sort of digging around and uh understanding would be worthwhile I think on both sides on there but so thanks for that the other one devolution local government reorganization um opportunity or threat how are you seeing it this was a conversation yesterday that a group of operators were having and um and there was equal argument for and against and I think that's probably where we're all at at the moment where you know if you've got a if you've got responsibility for a bigger area then do you care less about some things or actually if you've got responsibility for a bigger area does that mean there's more opportunity and I guess that's where we're at yeah and yeah it's a bit like that isn't it it's like it's like trying to figure out what should we do in preparation and scratching your head going I don't really know to be honest I mean some of the things that have come up elsewhere is things like built facility strategies across areas which have probably been long overdue and saying actually can we take a wider strategic view and if you sort of can guess in some places like Lancashire looking at and going well if it comes well when it comes to us it's probably going to look a bit like this I know some of the operators going well actually can we have a look at the the current makeup again it all costs money and time and everything else but can we actually have a strategic view ourselves of what might be able to be shaped you know for for the future something like that so it's but it's yeah it's it's uh you could you could waste a lot of time on it to be honest because you've almost got to go we've got to wait and see and react a little bit I guess and and I think in a in a similar vein going back to the NHS 10-year plan the neighbourhood health hubs the kind of community hubs I think there's something there that feels that feels something that makes sense that is relatable that it it feels like building communities not just building houses it fits with the house building targets obviously from a with the places for people hat on uh we're talking very much about how do we create communities not just you know hit a target on a number of homes and and how do we bring what we do and leisure centres particularly you know the public um sector leisure centres are to all intents and purposes community hubs anyway yeah so how do we get those at the forefront of of planning as opposed to well we've built these houses and we've got to have some sort of facility so there's a back corner in in the boggy area what can you do for us so I don't know whether those two go hand in hand a little bit whether in in terms of strategic planning but actually now having kind of a label for it in terms of the neighbourhood although you know the community hubs so that gives me hope yeah and again just pick up the sports england um discussion as well I cannot link the two together and said there's this there used to be a fund the strategic facilities fund from sporting and that sort of stopped a few years ago all went into place the place or directorate and there's been very little for for capital um facilities outside of sort of the green initiatives and things like that so you go is this not joined up you know if there's some potential some joined up funding and some place-based operations something like that let's let's hope so let's hope so it's all there isn't it the answers are all there it would appear so yeah it's just like your point earlier it's like we don't seem to be getting through our proposition doesn't seem to be getting through where it needs to so i'm with you 100 i think greater collaboration unified voice is the only way we're gonna probably break through a little bit but on a on a slightly off off a tangent but again it's sort of there's a there's there's a big surge in sort of interest in wellness um in society i think generally um with podcasts and everything else people are becoming i think more more informed more educated and there are a number of um operators now almost it feels like a bit of a rush to them and again forgive me i don't quite know where places are on this they've lots of operators now offering health hero memberships wellness memberships with other things attached to them what's what's your thoughts on that belinda so we've been tempted down that route um and what we've said is rather than kind of jump on something and head down that route we need to look at it in the hold you know we need to look at it and say what is it we're trying to achieve what is it we're trying to to solve for so i think we focused a lot in terms of our healthy communities activity as i mentioned already that's been a a big push for us and it was a it was a conscious decision to make that one of our strategic pillars because previously we were doing it but we were doing on the side of running leisure centers so you know we've got an instructor who okay for 20 hours of the week you're you're doing stuff in the leisure center and then 20 hours you're out in our communities and inevitably you know that the pool will be back into someone causing sick or something happens you don't really do the other stuff so we've made a conscious effort to to scale that and put resources behind it so that we can have a definitive offer for the communities and that's been our focus and now so the person i talked about hannah who's come in as our customer experience director has also got product strategy and we want to make sure we do the right things for the right reason i think our our direction of travel will be more into health and and health interventions but again doing it in the right way rather than just thinking okay let's let's just do it because because everyone else is and you can make a bit of money and and it's the right thing to do and you know it brings into play things like glp1 and how we support that and and again making sure that we're doing what we can do that only we can do that it's not we're not going to be the solution for everything um and we all know that you can go to the gym every day of the week but if you haven't got a good diet then you know it's for nothing so recognizing where we bring our expertise and how we apply that into something that is you know obesity is is a is a big issue we need to resolve for it glp1 is part of it um but only part of it but how do we um in a in a scalable sustainable way provide some wraparound support that goes into that so we've we're being um yeah quite deliberately strategic in in how we go down the wellness route because it's easy to i'm not saying anyone's actually jumping on the bandwagon but it is easy to do that and just kind of change the name of all your programs and and uh and make it that way so yeah i think that's our approach no no thanks for sharing that to be honest i think there is a little bit of jump on the bandwagon and somebody i interviewed today said you know there's an element of some operators i'm not you know i'm not saying this is right wrong or indifferent either but they're saying well if we're going to be bidding and we're bidding against somebody who's got the health hero etc etc etc we better have it um and you know that's that's somebody who who knows these things because they they've actually brought the health hero to the sector so there's a little bit of me too going on um as well again that's the way it is um i think probably related to the glp1 situation and so let's just probably run out of time we'll talk to you for hours but the workforce side of things um again your perspective coming in what did you find you've already talked about customer service levels and standards and things like that um but in terms of the workforce and simsper and the general sort of um uh i suppose learning and development side of things for our sector what what what's what's your thoughts i think it's quite incredible the level of training and support that goes on i think it's we shouldn't underestimate the quality of people we're bringing into the sector and qualifying them up who will either stay in the sector like um tom my od has been in for 37 years started as a lifeguard and then there'll be other lifeguards that go on and become paramedics or they'll work in the fire service or physios and i think there is that real when it comes to skills then i think the the training and and qualifications are are really really good and really structurally sound so very impressed with that um different in hospitality where you know your first job is behind the bar or or in the restaurant and your training might be uh who's your your key code off you go and do it. So I think I'm really impressed by that. I think, again, we were talking yesterday about training around, wrap around training around GLP in terms of not just for instructors, but a lot of people are coming in and saying, I've bought this off the internet, what should I be doing? And making sure that we're equipping our teams to be able to have the right conversations to provide the right level of support. Yeah, good. And again, I will say this because it was sponsored by FutureFit, but FutureFit designed a lot of that GLP-1 stuff and they do a lot of making every contact count that we've done in GM. We've worked with them a lot on that, as you probably know. Excellent. Look, Belinda, that's fantastic. Are you enjoying yourself? I'm loving it. I'm absolutely loving it. I feel that my whole career has brought me to this place and I feel so passionate about what we can do, about the difference we can make. I feel it's a privilege and a responsibility. I feel, you know, we haven't touched on young girls and helping them and some of the things we're doing there. And if I can, again, use my voice in any way to elevate the messages, amplify what we can do, bring people together, I don't know, knock some heads together, who knows what needs to be done. But I just believe that I know the benefit of physical activity and how it makes me feel. I know that I set my alarm to go, get up and go for a walk every morning because I will feel so much better and it will set me up for the day. And if we can help people feel the benefits of it and basically, you know, as we get older, be able to enjoy life, then what's not to love? So yeah, it's not a job. For the first time in my life, I found something that I just, yeah, truly love and just want to keep doing more and more and more. So yeah, I'm loving it. Good, well, it's lovely to hear. And yes, it is a great scheme. What's the name of the scheme? Big Sister. Big Sister, it's a fantastic scheme. Just tell people about it quickly, if you want. So Big Sister is a partnership with Women in Sport and it's basically a programme for nine to 15-year-old girls. We find them either through communities or school intervention, bring them together and they have a qualified female instructor and they can do whatever they want. So they'll come in for an hour a week and anything from dodgeball to cheerleading to body pump to touch rugby to anything they want to do. And it's a safe space. And I see it as a place between school and home where you've got an hour where you can just ask those difficult questions, stamp your feet, learn what's your thing to do. And if we can get girls at that age before they drop out of sport, which typically happens when they move into the next, after junior school, then that's just going to set up a group of strong, confident women of the future and hey, we need that. Yeah, no, it's a fantastic scheme. And I've just scribbled down, it's another example of the need, in my view and others, for a repository of best practice, as it's been labelled. So we capture things like that and make it replicable. And I know sometimes, again, that's people giving away USPs or whatever. But again, in that sphere of collaboration, it's like, wouldn't it be good if more people could offer that service and others like it? And we're having those conversations and women in sport have said, and we've said, you know, we were founders, but why should it be girls who live near our leisure centres? So if we could roll Big Sister out to everybody, absolutely we'll do that. I don't care who was the founding partner, women in sport, Steph Hilborn, exactly the same. We can roll this out. And actually then imagine we'll be able to get funding because we will be collectively offering a service out to nine to 15 year old girls, which is much needed. It's not easy to get people to say, yay, let's just do it. But I'm not gonna give up. No, I think you'll succeed, to be honest. I've got that feeling. No, good, excellent. Listen, I think great addition to the sector. I love some of the stuff you're saying personally. Hope others will too, I'm sure they will. But yeah, Belinda, thank you very much for your time. Brilliant, thank you so much. It's been great talking to you.