SCN Best of 2025: Key Elements to Optimizing Supply Chain Leadership for 2026 (and Beyond)

supply chain as a visible function, if I can call it that, came about with COVID. Because everybody started to realize gosh, we need to supply this stuff and we understand actually, without that, shops are empty. Supply chain leadership is about ensuring that that supply continues to keep the customer happy. - Welcome to supply chain now, the number one voice of supply chain. Join us as we share critical news, key insights and real supply chain leadership from across the globe, one conversation at a time. - Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be. Scott Luton with you here on supply chain now, welcome to today's show, folks. You should know this by now. I love talking leadership, right? Really, especially in practical, tangible terms. So today's conversation is really gonna hit home. We're gonna be diving into how to optimize supply chain leadership with a couple of great business leaders here that I admire. We're gonna be talking about the current challenging global landscape, although it's always challenging, right? Get into fundamental understandings that any supply chain leader must level set home. We're gonna be exploring the mountain moving power of T-shaped people. You haven't heard of that notion yet. No problem, we'll define it first. And today we'll even take a look at how supply chain leadership may well evolve over the next five years. All that and much, much more. So folks, stick around for a great conversation. That's gonna offer up tons and tons of actual insights by the truckload. So let's welcome in our wonderful guest joining me here today, twofold, starting with Paul Brooks, who serves as founder of Go Forerler Consulting. Now Paul's career has spanned 40 years in retail, automotive technology, and the logistics sectors, including 25 years at the board level. Now amongst many leadership roles he served in, Paul was international president of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport. Now that organization is also known as C-I-L-T. He served in that role in 2015 and 2016. In fact, he was awarded the Pegasus Medal for his leadership there at the C-I-L-T. Paul's first book entitled Inspired, a series of books I believe was published in March 2025. And he uses a platform to speak on how to use words to inspire as a means of improving leadership performance. Now joining Paul is my friend Dave Fude, who serves as chief strategy officer with prophetic technology. Now I sure have enjoyed my conversations with Dave over the years. His career spans over 35 years in the global supply chain industry. Paul in a variety of leadership capacities. Dave is advised and mentor business leaders at organizations ranging from innovative startups to true market leaders and all points in between. Now currently, Dave's on a special mission. He's helping executives and their companies make them most of supply chain solutions, especially expanding engagement, that critical human engagement and their useful capability all while leveraging truly growth and resilience. Now he's worn many hats. Including that, get this of a quote, reluctant academic as Dave's all over the world during his journey. Let's walk him in and learn from Paul and Dave here today. Paul, walk him in, how you doing? Thank great, Scott. Thank you so much for having me on the show and really looking forward to, I mean, I've known Dave for so many years, so really looking forward to today's session. And as you say, learning some stuff whilst we talk. No doubt, no doubt. Great to meet you here today. And Dave, welcome back. We've always enjoyed your stop-ins here at supply chain. Now, welcome back, how you doing? I'm doing really well thanks, Scott. And I'm all caffeinated and ready. You always are though. You always are. So let's do this. Let's start with a fun and warm up question here today. And this is gonna be, you know, I mean, we're approaching 1,500 podcasts and several hundred live streams and webinars. I could say I probably am approaching, probably over 2,000 fun and warm up questions. But Paul and Dave, I came up with a very unique one I've never used before for this conversation. Let's talk core mantras. So Dave, I picked this up and not just once, but several times in our interactions over the years. 'Cause one of your core mantras is, quote, "Every day is full, full of opportunity, full of potential and full of choices." So if you were Dave, expand on that a little bit please. Yeah, I'm really happy too. I mean, I don't know what your diaries like or anybody's diaries like, but my diaries always got less space than it needs. My credit got probably got less space than it needs if I'm honest with you. But, you know, there's so much demand upon our lives, both personal and business. And we have to make choices. And so we have to work out what's important. And I think the older you get, the clearer you get around what's important. And you get to choose later on about the things that you really want to spend time doing and the things you really don't. So true. And you know what? It is such a privilege and a luxury to be able to make that choice each and every day, right? Different folks in different parts of their journeys don't have that just yet sometimes. And I tell you, where we spend that precious very finite time is a really important daily decision. So Dave, thank you for level setting with us on that wisdom there. All right, so Paul, you entered over to your LinkedIn profile when I first met you. So I could, I could sneak on you a little bit and see what you're up to. Up at the top and blazing on your profile. I love this quote. It always seems impossible until it is done. Let's talk about that Paul. Yeah, look, I mean, Scott, I've lived my life with a positive mindset. And I've written 2,500 articles and all of them tagged positive mindset. So that's how I approach life. In fact, my nickname is positive Paul. So I approach that. And impossibility is something that I just don't agree with. So what we find is there is always a way to achieve your goals. There is always a way to achieve what you have in life as an ambition. It just means sometimes the root is not known. And so that is what we go about. We're really looking for impossibility solutions. And I know some of my friends actually use that as a title in itself. But it's a mantra that I've always lived by. Let's find a solution. The best idea should always win. It doesn't always come true in the short term. But in the long term, you can always find a way. And that's where I go positively going to find a way to solutions. And supply chain with its challenges is all about finding solutions. So true. Positive Paul, we love nicknames around here, Paul. So thank you for sharing that. And you know what, even better, just my take, I love real pragmatic, real practical positivity, right? Because when we wear that hat every day, especially in global supply chain, where we're solving problems big and small every day. And we have the option every day to either create more conflict or be much more practical and practically positive and be a source of resolving conflict and lessening conflict and friction. So that's at least what I try to wake up with that lens every single morning. So Paul, Dave, Dave, any friend of yours as a friend of ours and Paul's gonna fit it nicely here today. So on to business. On a level set on a few topics here. Because as I, as I've had the opportunity to better understand your background and journey, some of it, a lot of our audience, you'll be new to them. And I want to give them the same opportunities. So Dave, as I've mentioned, you're creeping up the all-time appearance list here at supply chain now. I love that. The folks that are new to you in our audience. Tell us a little bit about your journey. - Yeah, well, yeah, I fell into supply chain. I originally started, I was a teacher. And then I came back from working abroad and I ended up getting a job in supply chain almost randomly. I won't go into the details. But I stayed in supply chain for the next 35 years and alongside helping most of the supply chain planning platforms to go to market and to deliver value for their customers. I've also found myself teaching some of these stuff. So I have the privilege. Most years of getting in front of thousands of students to teach them about supply chain planning. And as you said in the intro, I described myself as a reluctant academic. I love telling the wall stories. I love pulling out the juicy bits and leading the theory to one of my colleagues. - Love it. - And that's what you find me doing most days. - I love it. And you're very talented there. And at first hand, and we need those juicy bits, right? It helps us wrap our heads around this, the innovation and the rate of change. And gosh, the really cool, innovative ways that we do supply chain in 2025 and not like it's 1982. So blessed are those like Dave Food that helps us get out there and learn and apply. Okay, so Paul, again, great to have you join us here today for your first time on supply chain now. Tell us about yourself. - Great, thanks, Carlson. David's one of the most humble guys I know. So double what he's just told you and you'll probably get close to how good he is at what he does. So I started off in retail marketing, retail buying with boots here in the UK. And then we set up a supply chain function because things weren't working to stores. And I followed that. And I was lucky. I rose to the top of that organization after a few years. And then I've progressed in that sort of supply chain into the physical deliveries. That was very analytical and into physical and then into strategic supply chain. But Scott, I've always been on the business development side. I've always looked for creating new solutions with clients and colleagues and adding value to stakeholders. So that's taken me on a journey. I had the privilege of setting up one of the first internet businesses in 1994 at research machines, which is education, supply chain solution. And internet for learning was one of the first in the UK that we had a transactional website that back in that time. So, and then I went, moved to Unipart and set up their e-commerce platforms for a supply chain fulfillment. Now, that was called you fulfill. And then, and that was in '98. And then I was lucky to ride that wave in a sense. And Dave and I worked on some projects at that time. And then I moved into pure sales. It was group sales director at Unipart before I went on a managing director's role. And but I've always been in supply chain, helping people. And for the last 13 years, I've been out on my own working with clients and working with chief execs and supply chain officers to improve what they do with a variety of clients. So, I'm the interface. I'm sometimes called a meeting in the sandwich scots. So, I try and join these things together. And that's been my career. And that's not why I write about it as well now. - I love it, I love it. So, I'm gonna put this all out there. I have the good fortune, I bet y'all do too, of meeting a variety of students in supply chain schools, really around the world, certainly here in North America. And rarely do I come across somebody that's in supply chain management degree that says they wanna get into business development or sales would have you. Folks, there are tremendous opportunities in global supply chain sales is not a bad word. Business development is a world full of opportunities. And I've had an opportunity to rub elbows with folks that have opened markets for supply chain organizations. There are tremendous opportunities. So, if you're listening or watching, take what Paul and Dave has said to heart because the great thing, one of the greatest things about global supply chain is there's something for everybody and there's all sorts of different ways to find your career journey. All right, we're talking today, our dominant theme that we're gonna learn from Dave and Paul on is supply chain leadership. And as I mentioned, I'm a big old leadership nerd. I love talking about it and learning and doing it better. So, question for you both. And I'm gonna start with Dave here. So, Dave, you and I've talked about this before. There's all sorts of leadership challenges that are timeless, right? They were important in 1982 since I picked on that year already. They're important in 2025. And then there are newer wrinkles that come along as the errors change and innovation and the business philosophy, all that stuff. And it can present new wrinkles to the leadership channel and especially in global supply chain. If you would, Dave, share a few thoughts on both sides of that coin. - Yeah, I think some of the long-term challenges have always been about integrating, collaborating, working together and doing it both from a feasible point of view, it's achievable, but also ensuring it's profitable. And those have often been built around spreadsheets and longer-term strategic plans. But as data has got faster, quicker, more detailed and our customers have got an expectation of accuracy. We started to get right across the board, whether it's in the business of consumer space or even in the business to business space, where people are saying, I want it and I want it now and I want to know where it is. And so there's been a real raising the bar in terms of accuracy. There's been a requirement to make sure that your data is good and quality and consequently our focus, our range, the things that we look at as broad and and deepened, which requires that we are both capable but also experts in some areas. So I think those are some of the things that drive up to the leadership and to the boardroom roles to make sure that we have the capability and the teams that we lead to ensure that that happens. Dave, we'll say, it reminds me of the old children's him deep and wide. If you're a son that vacation Bible school back in the day and it's so true that the responsibilities to really know more about the organization about industry and especially your niche and business is gotten greater. The good news is the resources and our access to data and expertise is also grown. Just after Dave, Paul, same question. Share a few thoughts on supply chain leadership challenges old in new. - Yeah, great Scott. And so I say leadership is leadership. So when we look for great leaders, we're looking for leaders who can make judgments and we are leaders who are driven that can drive forward on agendas. So we're always looking for those. In supply chain, we have this pragmatic element as well. We're always delivering something for somebody and we've got to understand that. So a leader has got to understand how the troops do what they do as well as the strategy and the strategic what we do. And that's why I've spent a lot of time looking at some military history as well, servant leadership. How leaders can serve and support their organizations as well as creating a headroom for them to drive forward. I talk about as you know in the books, Words to Inspire, I've had the privilege in the last month to interview 50 supply chain leaders here in the UK covering global organizations with turnovers up to sort of 25 to 26 billion. And everything they say today is about okay, we need to be analytical as well. So it's really important as Dave highlighted. We've got data, we've got information. Oh, we have people and teams that do that. So in leadership functions, we've got to inspire people to look for solutions, bear even sales in understanding how the end-to-end supply chain works. The great news is we've got visibility now. So I think leadership is about that full understanding of what you're trying to achieve. Obviously, why you're trying to achieve it? And then how you can go about creating the new and the future will be more about that how. But I think that consistency of great communication, great inspiration, great leadership, this drive, this judgment, that will be consistent going forward as well. - Oh, good stuff there. And I want to just pick up one thing you said to see if y'all agree with me. We're not getting trained well as a global people when it comes to the news media and the headline, the clicks. And we're getting trained to be that seven second goldfish attention span where we might read a headline and make a snap judgment. Yeah, I think there's a lot of danger and risk there by us not the five wise is a tool that's been around for decades. And we can't just stop it the first while. We got to really dive in deeper and understand the real story, right? Because when we get down to as, I think both of y'all spoke to this certain policy, you certainly did the real matter, the heart of the matter. Man, it's amazing how often you can find common ground, you can find innovations. And you know what? Y'all still will be a lot better informed. Respond to that really quick. Dave, does that resonate with you? - Yeah, it does. We use the phrase happy customers. I mean, if you've got a happy customer, they're going to tell people. They're also, if you've got an unhappy customer, they're also going to tell people. Getting it right really matters and paying attention so not just the product and the quality of the product and how it gets delivered, but all the other experience that goes with that, the paperwork that exchange the service, the way someone hands something to you across the door on your doorstep, if that's the way it's getting delivered, it all matters and people remember the things and they talk about it. So we've got to look at the bigger picture and the full experience of what we provide through suppliers. - I like it. The whole interlada and really shining a light before we make assumptions, is shining a big light into our blind spot because we always have them. Paul, you're quick comments forum forward. - Yeah, yeah, I didn't think I was be talking about interladas actually on this podcast, but that's great, Scott, thank for introducing that. Yeah, I mean, the thing that comes to mind for me is the words of Richard Branson, Founder of the Virgin Group, when he said, "If you keep your employees happy, they will keep your customers happy." So if we are in this technological age, really reliant on values-based businesses. So this is how we actually embody the values of what we do because actually the seven second will shine a light on that. So I think we see a lot in the social media age of values business. And if you can keep your values high, you'll keep your customers happy. - Well said, Paul. And I can't wait, we're gonna touch more on your book where you're having those incredible conversations and sharing key takeaways. So stay tuned folks, we'll talk more about that. Okay, we're gonna dive deeper into this leadership study here today on supply chain now. You know, there's several, there's a long list probably of critical requirements that the recipe of successful leadership and global supply chain calls for. But I wanna walk through a couple that we were talking about in the pre-show that I won't get both y'all way in on. And I wanna start with some fundamental understandings that leaders in training, current leaders or Hall of Fame leaders all need to wrap their head around. Dave, let's start with the bigger picture. You were just touchin' it in a second, go tell us more. - Yeah, it's interesting how many senior execs are now come from the experience of supply chain is fascinating to see how the skills and capabilities that people have developed in terms of joining supply chain together has enabled them to become thought leaders and also innovators to the market. It's not just about the product you deliver, it's the way you deliver it. So consequently, the reliability of a promise, when you make a promise for delivery, what does that look like? How accurate is it? Do you actually deliver on those kind of things? 'Cause people remember those kind of things. So chief executive and supply chain leaders need to pay attention towards making sure that the supply chain needs delivering value. Martin Christopher, who's now an emeritus professor here in the UK, he sent in the 21st century that the companies will compete on supply chains and services rather than products and prices. And we see that kind of thing. People are innovating now about where they store things, how they store things, how they deliver them and how they help people to make choices to buy them in the first place. That's not something I ever thought was going to be part of supply chain, but now the choice mechanism, the catalog and the innovative way we present choices to our customers based upon what's in our supply chain starts to drive a completely different model and the leadership requires innovation. So supply chain leaders need to be innovative as well as capable. I love that Dave. And really one of the things you're spoke to there is the overall experience that global supply chains provide is so much more to your point. I think you mentioned Martin Christopher's so much more than just price and product. Well said, Paul, your thoughts on the bigger picture. - Yeah, no, great. And look, I think one of the big components here is the change that apply chain as a visible function, if I can call it that came about with COVID because everybody started to realize, gosh, we need to supply this stuff and we understand actually without that shops are empty. So we look at retail supply chains and the manufacturers that support those and the leaders in those functions have become much more visible. I remember some a great debate on CNN about supply chain performance in the US in the Northern Northeast States and Washington in particular, 'cause that's where the political pressure came from. And there were empty stores. So everybody said, what's going on? So they understood that actually supply chain leadership is about ensuring that that supply continues to keep the customer happy. And actually the complexity of doing that became extremely visible and the flexibility to move from the store then to delivery to home also became very visible. So we've had that opportunity in a really tough time to actually leverage the capability of supply chain leaders and their teams in actually delivering for each of our countries. And I think that's made a step change in actually saying, look, these guys can run these businesses because they organize something that is really complex. - Hmm, complexity, growing complexity. Unique, complexity, old and new complexity. Oh my gosh, 2025 is delivered on all that and a whole bunch more. Let's talk about another fundamental understanding that successful supply chain leaders got to wrap their head around. Dave, the bigger process, what do you mean by that? Part of the challenge around the bigger process is it's not just about ensuring that you deliver a product. It's also understanding the way that product has been assembled, how you provide flexibility to the choice. I mean, we're getting in a digital world now where people, you're delivering to a product of one that gets printed through a 3D printer at the customer. I mean, that's where we're heading, but all the way through that process, there is choice and there is decision that's being made and that's those decisions are being made, costs are being incurred. And if you don't look at this as an overall process, you'll either be delivering fantastic products and you won't be making the profits or you'll be making the profit, but the customers don't want it anymore 'cause he's out of date. So that managing innovation and change through extremely long supply chains, in some case, means that those choices need to be made and constantly reviewed to ensure that the product is fresh, relevant and profitable when it gets delivered to the customer. Dave, profit and talking about another word is not a dirty word. We can't run without profit. Paul, tell us about the bigger process in your works. Yeah, look, I sort of came out of automotive and automated supply chains and we were running and responsible for the aftermarket and I think was Dan Jones said, this is the most complex feat of human endeavour on the planet. I've got some great stories, but we probably can't go into that. But we were looking at ordering engines from Japan to service cars in the UK at the time and that was a three month lead time and I can tell you now, Scott, your full class was either lucky or wrong. I mean, there was no way we were getting this right and so the benefit of today is we have that visibility. We can track every decision we make at the component level and we can actually deliver customer satisfaction globally at a component level. And so that orchestration, that difference now, you need to have a different mindset. But the process is still, product gets made in A and gets delivered to B and as Dave said, that's getting tighter and tighter and tighter and I think it was Zara who actually changed the model of finishing products right close to each market in order to drive down the inventories and the holding costs but also keep very high that on shelf availability and we've all copied that model in one shape or a form and people keep innovating about this global supply chain and I think that's really essential that as Dave said, you know, you've got to keep on this. There's a new idea somewhere tomorrow. We might touch on a Gen TKI. We can demand since 40,000,000 data points in milliseconds to actually influence our forecast and our supply and that's going to be a whole new ball game. - Yes, Paul, I got to go back and share something from an automotive standpoint. So Dave and Paul, part of my journey in the manufacturing world was supplying products to a second tier automotive supplier and one of my least favorite things about that stretch was how we were required to break down every single thing, every single cost went into our product so that we could have, according to that supplier or our customer, a set of levels of profitability. - Yeah. - Hey, did that then? I couldn't imagine doing that now. I know that we've got to do that in some ways, but man, there was no, you were always under the microscope and that's not a good place to be offered, at least in my experience. Paul, was that your experience automotive? - Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, I mean, we love to call it clever cost down but the cost down pressure was just enormous, just enormous and people were looking for 30% cost out of processes. - Right. - You know, you'd start the start of a year thing, well, where am I gonna get that from? So you had to be creative and innovative. You had to rethink your perspective, not just what you did, you had to rethink your perspective and place yourself in a new way of thinking and John Neill, my chairman at the time, he basically said, act your way into a new way of thinking. That was very insightful because actually, you have to change your mindset in order to deliver profitable performance and customer excellence at the same time. - Paul will said, and Dave, if I hope I never have to hear the word or phrase cost down again, annual cost downs. Oh my gosh, Dave, your quick thoughts. - I, yes, I would go even further than that, that kind of open book accounting really required a level of honesty that would really put pressure upon the whole relationship. So, how much is more possible now, the reality is, we can press into making better decisions in more informative and creative ways. - Yes, that's right. - That's right. - Share school. - Well said, Dave, okay. So Dave and Paul, I wanna, one last thing that comes to fundamental understandings. I wanna talk about the water team. Paul, what are you talking about when you say the water team? - Well, I mean, supply chain touches everything. What we see now is the sort of role of finance and HR and people, the strategy and people offices such so important. So, we talk about skills, we talk about capability, we talk about capacity. And you've got to understand all of those components in order to build a high performing, highly functional team. But ultimately, the essence of why you're there, the leadership components is super important. So, it's essential that when we look at the wider team, we fully understand how they work together as a team and then how sub teams within that work. Because it's a bit like, you know, inbound in a warehouse, you've got middle bound storage, stock counter, you've got outbound dispatch and custom orders. People just think it's a warehouse. But actually, you've got these multiplicity and multi-level teams in action, always looking to improve their business processes, deliver and delight customers. So, my perspective of the supply chain team, it's the end-to-end analytical team, but it's also the people who actually have the delivered experience on the day to day, and you've got lots of stakeholders that need your support and we need their support in order to do that. - Yes, that's right. Pa, Dave, your thoughts on the wider team? - Yeah, one of the challenges is, of course, supply chain works right across the business and all the different departments within the business have got their own KPIs. And so, there's a real competition about who's winning and what scores we actually compare things again. So, learning to be able to talk finance and supply chain is something that I think is a bigger team discussion. But then also, a lining KPIs at the boardroom level, I mean, I find it fascinating that a new CEO can come into a company, set a new regime and a new approach. And then I want to ask the question, who reviewed the supply chain as a consequence of the new strategy that the CEO's got and quite often, the answer is we haven't reviewed it. So, you're driving a new model, but with an old engine in your car, sticking to the automotive scenario we had earlier on. And that's a real challenge. You've got to make sure that your supply chain is aligned to the objectives and the strategies of your senior execs and the CEO. - That's right, Dave. And I think you know, I've talked about in previous conversations, we've got to create aligned metrics too, so that we're not incentivizing folks to create disalignment, right? But we'll see in that topic for another day. Hey, we're quick, quick hitters. 'Cause we've got a lot more to get to. Both of y'all have spent a lot of your parks of your journey in the boardroom and the David thinking mentioned that in part of your response. Quick hitter, just a thought new around supply chain leadership in the boardroom, Paul. - Yeah, look, I mean, the good news is it's at the board table now. 20 years ago, we were talking about when is supply chain gonna get into the boardroom? Now it's at the boardroom. It's at the board table. It drives efficiency. It drives profitability at drive success. And so people are looking to supply chain leaders on those three subjects. You know, what's the latest initiative we can actually implement to do X, Y and Z? And the supply chain leader has the year of the chief executive. Because the other thing that the supply chain leader has is to, you know, all of the suppliers. Typically, I'm large as you know yourself, Scott. I mean, I worked in aerospace for a time. 85% of all the cost in aerospace is outside of the company. So your suppliers, your multi-tier suppliers are delivering that excellence for you. So partnerships, collaboration, information, all go to the part of it. And that says to me, this is a crucial part. Everybody around the board table now understands that. They know and want to support, they need information. They want to help, but it's a big team and I think supply chain has driven that. - Yes, Paul, whether we lack it or not, and we've been saying this for years, it's in the boardroom. Some days, that's a beautiful thing. Other days, a little more challenging. Dave, your thoughts about supply chain leadership in the boardroom? - Well, I'd like to expand it and say, it's not just about in the boardroom, you know, often our supply chains are not just us, but our suppliers and our customers. So sometimes it's a collaboration of boardrooms. And you know, if you've got a supplier who's your innovative driver, let's say wiring looms in cars, then you're looking for them to help you to drive innovation and profitability. So the team is much bigger than just the executive team around the boardroom table. It's suppliers and customers as well. - So true, Dave. In fact, going back to that same stretch and manufacturing that stop of mine earlier, one of my favorite customers would invite cross-functional folks from their operation and meet cross-functional folks from our operation. And we find new ideas and we have that. Oh, this is why this is important, the breakthroughs. You're not having those conversations with the customer. You were really missing out, great comment there, Dave. All right, really quick. We're about to get into T-Shake people. But before we do, on a related, a second cousin, maybe of that part of our conversation, I was just talking, I was at University of Arkansas last week. I spent time with Ateya, some of the most brilliant students in future hall of fame supply chain leaders I've ever been around. 31 schools were there, right? Dr. Stephanie Thomas, Dr. Rod Thomas were big facilitators there. It's all about wise women impacting supply chain excellence. One of the things that we were talking about is this notion of specialists versus generalists. So not maybe versus, but kind of those two things, right? I was making the comment, I'll say if you all agree, that saying I don't know is a really important thing. Even better, you know what I'm saying? I don't know, but I'll find out is to my ears. However, I have found in my career that some of the best leaders I've ever worked for aren't they're not the expert on every single product or process, it can't be. Kind of going back to what Davis saying. It's an imperative to have the credibility and to reach that, that the happy medium I call it. But generalists move mountains because oftentimes they figure out which specialist to bring in to whatever the right conversation, problem, innovation, what have you. Paul, your thoughts on specialists and generalists, I'll say. Yeah, this is brilliant debate. I would say without exception to the 50 people I've interviewed recently, we believe generalists are becoming the way ahead in terms of leadership. So that would say foundationally, you've got to understand that you are going to be a generalist in order to be a leader going forward. Having said that, I mean, I came out of a world of professional sports. And if you look at a team, a sports team, you are a group of individuals who are specialists in their position or role working together to achieve a goal or an outcome that we have agreed. Now, we'll train to do it in a certain way. We'll have coaches, we'll have mentors, we'll have physicians helping us to stay fit as part of that journey. So there's lots of stakeholders involved in the outcome. And if you look at sporting teams now, gosh, if it, I look at just a baseball, American football, these mountain support people around that team, helping them to perform at their best when they need to is going to be the future of supply chain too. So try and use that analogy and work on that and look at those best performing world class teams and say, actually, I want my supply chain team to perform like that. - Love that, Paul. And hey, by the way, we got to look at global football too. - Yes. - Looting town. Looting town, are they any good? I've always said we'll trace our roots back to New England. And I just uncovered in the last year so that we've got a football team called with, are they winning any trophies, Paul? - Well, not recently, not recently, but they did win a minor trophy a while back and they were in the Premier League, not too long ago, Scott. And it's a fun place to go. I know a lot of people who really enjoy the football is, they're a passionate group, Scott. So that's why you fit with them so well. - I'm gonna get a flag and banner and go to again. All right, Dave, we're talking about specialists and generalists, your thoughts. - Yeah, I'm, one of the important things here is to make sure that you've got people around you, you can see advice from it, they're gonna give you on this truth. One of the worst scenarios I've ever seen is where you get CEOs who are still keeping their finger in the pie on whatever their area of expertise is it. You find someone who's developed a product, the businesses grow now become a multi-billion dollar business and they've still got their finger in the pie on the innovation process. And some of that might be unique, but actually they've got to trust their team. So you've got to have people are able to be generous, but you've also got to have people who are willing to accept advice from people who are probably gonna grow and leapfrog ahead of them as they become the specialists of the future. - Yes, well said, Dave, well said, good stuff. Okay, so now that let's explore this notion of T-Shake people, now I'll be honest, we keep it real around here. I just learned about T-Shake people here recently. So I'm looking forward to learning from you both here. Paul, let's first let's define it. - Well, will we talk about when we say T-Shake people pot? - Well, if you imagine an organization built up a function, so it's got to deliver an end to end process but it's built up at functions. Typically, the T-Shake person has got a great overview of where they fit in the process, but a deep knowledge of expertise down the stand, down the tee in their area of expertise. And that is what a T-Shake person has became. And now we're moving on, and as I say, but it's really what's your function and what's your role? You've got to make a contribution into it. You basically join up an organization into it. You've got to be aware of everything, but people look to you for your area of expertise and that's what a T-Shake person is. - So Dave, thank you, Paul. That makes a lot of turn of sense. So Dave, we're not just talking about folks with broad shoulders that are 10 feet tall. They're either some science behind. So what would you add about T-Shake people? - Well, it's been a concept that's been around for 35 years. Actually David Guest, I think, launched the idea in about 1990s, and then the CEO of a day out of camera because they named Tom Brown, I think, possibly. He picked it up and kind of developed it. But the thing about it is, is that actually you've got to make sure that you are developing and growing. Lifetime learners is an important part of being a T-Shake person. So maybe you're going to grow in your breadth or maybe you're going to grow in your depths, but you need both, really function at the level that the supply chain executives are required to these days. And sometimes you need to make sure that the team that you're building around you is diverse. You're adding friction conflict into your conversation so that you deal with the challenges in your meetings and in your discussion, rather than with your customers and your suppliers. - Yes, now we're going to bridge a gap back to what we're talking about a second ago. There's journalists and specialists, so I think it's very related here. So Paul, I'm asking a, maybe a dumb question, but I want to ask you anyway, so I can learn your thoughts, you and Dave, what are T-Shake people critical parts of any supply chain organization? - Well, I think there's two or three elements really, and I'll come back and pick up on something they've said 'cause it was really important. It's that actually the most important thing is you've got to know the impact of what you do. So if you pull a lever in supply chain, then you've got to know what the impact of pulling that lever is. And who's it going to affect? Your stakeholder group is really broad. And so, your end goal is to put a product in your customer's hand and delight at customer. That's your end goal. So what's your role in doing that? And that's the T, you've got to understand that. But then you've got to look and say, well, what I'm responsible for delivering for the organization in terms of value, cost down, profitability, acceleration, capability, these are all things you're accountable for in your functional role, and obviously accountable to the organization. So it's really important that we, as leaders, understand both of those elements. And that's why I think that we need to sort of move forward. The thing I was going to pick up on what Dave said, which I thought was absolutely spot on, is actually when you practice, you can practice without being live. So that's why a training ground exists. And the great leaders ensure their teams can train without risk. And I think failure is a way to fail forward fast is today's scenario. And it's a phrase that you hear a lot in supply chain teams. You've got to be able to test and pilot in the new ideas in order to move forward fast. And I do sometimes think that actually changing a supply chain is like doing open heart surgery while you're still walking a lot. It's pretty hard to get right. So sometimes you do have to step and pause and say, right, what can I test now? Let's put it in, let's test it. But let's fail forward fast, yeah. - Yes, I'd much rather fail in the Petri dish that out there in the operation, so to speak. Dave, would you add about why T-Shaped people are absolutely critical works? - Coming from a technology point of view, that whole idea about having a sandbox is something, so those T-Shaped people are able to play, you imagine a box of sand and you're playing with your grandson. There's fun to be had, but there's also lessons that could be learned and lessons that could be taught with minimal risk. So empowering your people to make mistakes. I think not jumping on every mistake. You've also got to have the protection mechanisms around and make sure that we don't meet mistakes that are going to result in the business losing a customer, losing a contract or losing reputation. These things, right, sir. - Go, go out, great, great stuff, Dave. Go out and get your sandbox, folks. Go out and get the digital sandboxes that are available now, where you can think millions of activities in a day. It's amazing and gosh, the innovations and learnings you can unlock and the risk you can avoid or the missteps you can avoid is tremendous. Okay, so we've got a big home stretch here. I can't wait, we're going to be talking about what not to do here in a second. We're going to get Dave and Paul's take on what may rise to the top in terms of leadership importance in the next five years and you're not going to want to miss some really cool things that Paul and Dave are up to and how to connect with them. But I want to take his back. So let's see here, it was January of 1995. I was Airman Scott Luton in the United States Air Force. I had just gotten through basic training and my follow-up tech school. And I arrived at my first permanent duty station, Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter South Carolina, which joined Air Force, you'll see the world. It was an hour and a half from home, Paul and Dave. That's not what's important here. What is important in my first day in my new office with my new team, taught me a lesson that has stuck with me ever since. I get on site, I sit down and meet one of the bosses in the office, one of the managers in the office. His name was Richard. And as he sat down me in a fellow newbie, Purvis was his name. Richard says, "First thing he says, you will learn to fear me." That was my introduction to my new duty station. And that has stuck with me ever, ever since as something never, ever remotely to do. 'Cause leadership's not about fear. So with that in mind, I wanna flip our conversation on its head and talk about what we can't do, what we can't allow to happen, what we shouldn't do when it comes to real supply chain leadership. Paul, your thoughts. - Yeah, I mean, the most important thing, I've always said is inspiring people, to get the best out of themselves and achieve more than they thought was possible for themselves. So the inverse is absolutely true. I've seen a lot of leaders try to control what people do. And even worse, control how they do it or how they think about it. Anything in that area is poor behavior and the great organizations don't have that. And I think, so in today's world, if you've got constrained processes where people have to just come in and do an eight hour shift in a way that just functions without any thought, I mean, Google broke that barrier, didn't they, because they were sort of saying, "Look, let's give half a day for thinking to people." So let's be creative. So if you oppress people's ideas, then mindset and their behaviors, any indication of that is really poor leadership behaviors. - Paul, well said. Well said, I wish I could take that back in time. But I didn't know what to say. I'll tell our Richard, Dave, what would you add in terms of what not to do? - I think what not to do is not to try and do everything everywhere. Running in your lane as a business or as an executive is absolutely key. So not giving people freedom to do everything. Are we going to be the best though? Are we going to be the cheapest? Are we going to be the fastest? That gets set. And then we can be innovative under the umbrella. So giving people freedom to bring any ocean to the table. Yes, great, but don't so constrain people that no innovation happens. People don't feel they have the freedom or the right to suggest something. I can't see currently, they go somewhere else because that no innovation is going to be, and they're schools in that case, but is it going to be appreciated somewhere else? - Dave, I love that. And in particular, this, this, an element of what you just shared has come up time and time again recently. And this universe is a way of telling stuff, I think. I think of some of the most quiet reserve folks that have been a part of my journey. Go to those people because they have some of the best ideas, but they either aren't giving a chance to contribute at meetings or maybe they're not confident enough to share. Go to those people, you'll unlock some brilliance. Okay. What not to do? That was fun. Paul and Dave. I'm going to talk more about that in future shows. Let's talk about, let's look deep into our crystal ball. As I like to say, mine's been broken for years. And it's waiting on parts or seven years out. They tell me, that's it, Dave. You spent a lot of time using your expertise and experiences to think about the future and what's coming. Paul, you probably do too, but I know Dave does because our past conversations. So Dave, when you think about the current elements that we've either we've talked to or some others out there that are play a big role in effective supply chain leadership or new elements. What do you think, what will Raz in importance say five years from now? - I think five years from now, we're going to be talking about individual decisions about how things can be delivered uniquely to us as a customer. And probably with kind of, I know it's Star Trek, but with almost the kind of teleported capability where you're printing something at a location because you've got the capability to do it. And we'll have configurable products that will be driven by product design and supply chain will take a different role because it will be about configurable capability and program of ability at the point of delivery. But all of the, what's it's alongside this? What we're all talking about somewhere somehow is some use of artificial intelligence and machine learning to help to drive supply chains that are truly flexible because you've considered multiple scenarios in the sandbox of intelligence to help to make sure that products are delivered in new, fresh and real ways. - I love that, Dave. And I love the Star Trek reference on the front end. - It will be an interesting world. One of my favorite things to do back in the day was look at old issues of like popular science and those kinds where they were predicting the future. And in more modern issues, they would actually one of the first things they do is they would present little capsules of what they were talking about 100 years ago and then 50 years ago and then 20 years ago. Dave, I hope your prediction there comes to fruition 'cause that'd be a really cool thing for global supply chain but a cool thing for us consumers too. Paul, asking me a tough prediction to beat. What do you think rises in importance with supply chain leadership in five years from now? - Look, I'm gonna be pretty consistent with the individual contribution, communication skills, your thinking, your analytical skills. I was sitting in the office in 1985 when the first PC got delivered. Okay, and it had a five and a quarter inch floppy disk and it changed our world. I was then working in 1998 in e-commerce platforms and businesses and we predicted how much trade would go through these. The actual financial numbers were absolutely right. How it worked, we were absolutely wrong. I mean, we're here again, AI is doing the same for us again. It's gonna change the platform, it's gonna change the way we behave, it's gonna change the way we think. However, we still need the people, understanding how their teams work, how their businesses work, how the strategy works and where the values are gonna be set and that is the thing that underpins at the future of great supply chain leadership. - Okay, we're gonna need shades. Both of y'all paint a very bright future. I'm not rushing time away 'cause five years from now, I'm thinking about my three kids and the bills they'll have then. Oh my gosh, so we'll take it one day at a time. All right, so let's wrap up on a couple cool things. I love our conversation here today. So Paul and Dave, thanks for your time. Let's talk about some of the other cool initiatives and projects you are spending some time on. So Paul, you've got a couple of new books coming out. You've mentioned one focused on logistics leadership, I believe. - Yep. - Now tell us a little more. - Yeah, so I mean, look, I've written thousands of articles on supply chain leadership and sales leadership, business development leadership. So I focus on what makes leadership performance better. And my inspired series of books, first ones out, second ones due out next month, volume two and counting scots. So until I get to 10, I'm just keeping going. And what I like to do is I unpack words that inspire me to write something about today's leadership conundrum. Today's leadership challenges and put that out there on LinkedIn in the main. And then what I'm trying to do as part of that is to say, look, actually, under this logistics leaders network, a group that I've been involved in, looking at what great leadership performance looks like. And I've had the privilege of interviewing a number of supply chain leaders about 40, so at the moment. And really looking at the essence of that and trying to document it and things like understanding what resilience really means in today's world, understanding what the future of supply chain leadership is going to look like. And I'm going to make a contribution by putting out a book towards the end of October around leadership, the best supply chain leadership performance that we understand today. And then keep working on that and going for it. So those projects are really exciting and they're all under my sort of words to inspire banner. Outstanding, Paul, where can folks get these publications of yours? Yeah, just go to words to inspire.co.uk and they're all there, Scott. Outstanding. Okay, it's just that easy. Good stuff, Paul. All right, so Dave, I've really enjoyed your blog series and it's title, folks get this. Planning, food for thought. Get that little dad's joke there. I love it. Dave, I bet you've gotten lots of feedback. I enjoy your perspective. I think you publish that just about every week. I enjoy your perspective almost as much as I enjoy some of the comments I've seen and some of the conversations that you're writing tends to spark. What's been some of your favorite feedback this far? Some of my favorite feedback is actually where people don't agree with me to be honest. It's actually iron, sharpened iron. The reality is there's a bit of heat and friction and some good conversation comes out of that. But to be honest, also some good business comes out of that either from a consultancy point of view or for the customer or consumer is actually putting into practice some of the ideas we're exploring together. But I think one of the challenges around writing anything is it has some value now, but will it still have some value in the years to come and some of the quotes that Paul's talked about earlier on? I have stayed on the shelf for decades, if not centuries. I hope that one or two things I write might actually still be around if 50 years time, who knows? I think if I was a gambling man, I'd put money on it will be around and relevant in 50 years from now, Dave. I enjoy your perspective and that's weekly, right? A weekly blog? Yeah, weekly blog, yeah, absolutely. And folks can find it by connecting or following you on LinkedIn, is that right? LinkedIn's my go-to place. I have a saying that says if I can't help you, I know someone who can and I genuinely believe that to be true, I introduce people step away and leave them to get on with the conversation. I've got a pretty unique name, I don't know anybody else. You've got the same family name as me apart from the people who are in my family. So, yeah, I love that, I love that food for that, Dave. Okay, let's make sure, so Paul, you shared a URL a second ago. I want to make sure folks know how to connect with you whether it's books, whether it's your thousands of art or culture, if they want to talk shut with you. How can folks reach out to you, Paul Brooks? Yeah, if you go further consulting, obviously it's my consulting business. So, Paul Dot Brooks and go further consulting.co.uk is the place to find me and my website was to inspire.co.uk. We'll find all the books and my writing and some of the leadership articles I share. But always happy to connect with people if they want to reach out. Outstanding, Paul, great to meet you here. I really have enjoyed your perspective. And Dave, thanks for connecting us with Paul Brooks. Really have enjoyed both of y'all. Clearly y'all have been doing some cool things for quite some time. You may be second cousins by now, Dave. And how can folks connect with you and the cool things you're doing, Dave, food? Well, LinkedIn would be the obvious place, but Dave at prophetic-technology.com will get through to me on an email. I'm also happy to take what's that message is and my mobile number is very, very visible. So, okay, man. That's bold. Brave and bold, Dave. I love it. Well, folks, hopefully you enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. I really have enjoyed learning from our guests here today. Paul Brooks, who serves as founder of Go Further Consulting. Also, lots of books coming out. So make sure you connect with Paul and visit the resources he mentioned. And my friend Dave Food, who serves as chief strategy officer with prophetic technology. And I would say he is pretty prophetic. We're going to see five years from now. Let's see here. That's going to be September 24th, 2030. We'll go back and look at Jaws observations and we'll have another podcast. How's that sound? Fantastic. All right, audience members out there are dear global supply chain now family. You've got some homework. First off, again, I hope you've enjoyed this very actual conversation here today. Then they're done that perspective for sure. But your homework is you got to say one thing you heard here from Paul, just one thing. Or from Dave, put it into practice. It's about Dave's not words. That's how we're going to continue transforming the global business world, not just supply chain. And realize more and more of the art of the possible. And gosh, that's an exciting space right now. But with all that said, Scott Luden, on behalf of our entire team here at supply chain now, is challenging all of you, our dear family. Do good, give forward, be the chain just needed. And we'll see you next time right back here. Won't supply chain now. Thanks everybody. [MUSIC PLAYING] Join the supply chain now community for more supply chain perspectives, news, and innovation. 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