Rethinking How We Develop Younger Hockey Players to Increase Retention Rates with Guests Judd Stauss & Tyler Palmiscno, East Grand Forks, MN Model - EP 386

(upbeat music) - Welcome, welcome, welcome everybody to the Hockey Think Tank podcast brought to you by Hockey Think Tank, you place for all passionate players, parents and coaches to go to get a little bit of education and a little bit of inspiration regarding the greatest game on the planet. What an episode we have for you guys here today. We are bringing on Judd Stouse and Tyler Palmacino of East Grand Forks, Minnesota. And these guys are unbelievable hockey guys. So Judd is a part of running the youth hockey program there in East Grand Forks and Tyler is the head coach of the boys high school hockey team there that won the state championship last year. And man was this an unbelievable conversation. And it is such great timing coming after our Uncle Tim episode because they are two very, very, very different episodes. And so I will get into some of the things that we talked about, but they're just awesome hockey guys. Judd College Hockey player at Denver, Tyler was a college hockey player at the University of North Dakota and some of the things that they're doing in East Grand Forks is absolutely incredible. But before we do get over to those two guys, let's bring on the talents of the podcast, a one Jeffrey Jehu Levecchio. Vex, what's up GMT man? - How much bro? I'm can't lie to you guys. I'm a little butt hurt had to miss this one. Had some life stuff, some dad stuff getting away and Toph had to carry the mail by himself. You talking about practice? We're talking about practice yet. Toph crushed it, immediately told me what this whole podcast was about. And I for one, cannot wait to listen to this one in here for the first time with all you guys. - Yeah, it's incredible guys. So just a little bit of a backstory on how I got to Judd and Tyler. So I spoke at Minnesota Hockey's big conference. It was probably in May, you know, a bunch of months ago. And from there, I got a bunch of different emails and phone numbers and stuff from people that I met. And it was kind of like, I already knew that Minnesota did it better than everybody else just based on the amount of elite hockey players that come out of that state versus everywhere. But it really was cool to be there and see just how the sausage is made and really get into the nitty gritty of what makes Minnesota hockey so special. And so from there in talking with different people afterwards, I had all these people say, yeah, I think we're gonna try the East Grand Forks model at Scourts. And it was like multiple, multiple, multiple hockey directors. And so I'm like, what is, like, what does that even mean? So they would kind of tell me what it was. And then a little bit ago, I got on a call with Judd and with Tyler just to hear what it was. Like, what are you guys doing so differently in East Grand Forks that everybody else is kind of like, we got to do this. And so, you know, they won the state championship last year for Minnesota's high school hockey. And they did it with some of the kids that they started this pilot program seven years ago. And so seven years ago, they started a pilot program at the Scourts level and a couple of things that are very, very different than the last episode we did with Uncle Tim and what you see basically in everywhere else. And so what they ended up doing was at the Scourts level, so 10 U and below, half ice hockey. Half ice hockey for the first half of the year and no travel hockey for the first half of the year. So when it got to January, then they started playing full ice, then they started, you know, making travel teams where they can go around the state and do travel stuff. But basically house, not house hockey, but in, well, I guess, yes, in house hockey from the start of the season till January and then half ice hockey as well. And the way that they structured their practices too, you guys will hear it. Like it's unbelievable, station-based, ADM practices. Every kid is getting coached by every coach. So there's not, you know, kind of like inequity in the kinds of coaching that the kids are getting. And also when you have that, you know, three, whatever month period it is, how idiotic are tryouts when kids don't play hockey in the summer and then they have to come in August and then they spend two or three days in a tryout and then teams are picked. While in this, it's like three months of everybody on the ice together, you know? And then they pick the teams at the end of that three months and so it's a lot more even or not even, but it's a lot just better, better picked, right? And so that is like a very, very, very short version of an unbelievable conversation that we had, but it's just like really, really cool. Number one, like what they're doing because they're a group that is doing things differently. They weren't afraid to go against the grain to actually like go with what developmental principles should look like, right? Like so much of what development looks like now, it kind of goes against what it should based on research and, you know, everything that we talked about with Uncle Tim on his episode, but like they, when it gets the grain and that is not an easy thing to do in today's day and age. And they got people to buy into it. They've done it really, really well to the point where they won the state championship with some of the kids that started in this cohort program and they got other programs around Minnesota that are looking into doing this as well. So, man, so cool. These guys are such great hockey guys and I'm gonna let them speak for themselves. It's such an awesome conversation. You would have loved this one, man. And the reason you were not on was not on you. That was actually on me. And so, you know, you're trying to be nice there, but it was a great, great episode. - Idiot, was trying to block the shot for you, Doug. - Anyways, dude, I cannot wait to hear, 'cause I can't wait to hear how they got people to buy in. I've been chewing my own arm off, reading my Instagram DMs from some of these random people about cross ice and full ice, when every single pro athlete that DMs me about it is like cross ice, duh, oh my God, duh. - Well, half ice, cross ice or half ice. - Well, half ice, yeah, yeah. I know that there's some pros who like the full ice, but all the people that are DMing me are like, what? This is a question. So, yeah, I mean, I can't wait to hear how they got all of these people to buy into this. I mean, tryouts then make so much more sense to me. Like this just, this makes so much sense. I literally, I cannot wait to hear this episode. - Yeah, man, like you stay in house with everybody. And for all the people that are like, oh, it's Minnesota, they must have a ton of players. Like they don't have a ton of players in their program. East Grand Forks is not like in the metropolis of Minneapolis and St. Paul. You know, they don't have a gargantuan amount of numbers. And so the numbers that they have, they got to make a count. And that's always something that like I hear from when I talk about Minnesota, oh, well, there's just so many players out there. This is a small town. This is a really small town. And you'll hear about it in the conversation and just the way that they structure practices. 'Cause I think that's the most important thing, that the practices is the thing that makes the kids better. And then the in-house games, the small-sided games, yeah, go in a bunch of months and then choosing your teams through that. Like, man, this is like, this is a model. And- - Saving families money. - Saving, yeah, how much money are they saving families to? A hundred or so. - Awesome. - By not traveling. (laughs) - It has to be a factor in our sport that costs so much money. We're doing a disservice by doing things that I believe and I think Toph believes some of these things that are just so unnecessary at the youngest ages. And it's just putting a financial strain on people that it's pushing people out of our game. And like Toph always talks about, if we narrow that pyramid too soon, it's gonna hamper what our country can produce and just the game of hockey in general, we're gonna lose people to other sports and it's gonna murk the game. So it's just like, why not try to find ways that save people money first and foremost? And then obviously if development is better, no brainer. (laughs) - Yeah man, so this is just an incredible episode guys. Really looking forward to you guys hearing it. Like I said, Judd and Tyler, kudos to them and really kind of going forward with something that might not have been popular because it's not what conventional wisdom is saying to do in today's day and age, but it's no, we're gonna follow developmental principles. We're gonna get people to buy into it and people have and they've seen the success from it and it's amazing. And I think more people need to step up and do things like this at the end of the day. So awesome episode. Before we do get over to them though, we do have some people to thank. First we wanna thank our title sponsor icehockeysystems.com. Guys, they just came out. They just came out with family accounts. No longer is this just ice hockey systems for coaches. This is ice hockey systems for parents and players as well. And we've partnered with them to do that. A ton of different content for myself, Daryl Belfrey, who's one of the top hockey genius minds in the game, Dwayne Bley, who is the head of skill development for the Detroit Red Wings, Meg Popovic, who is an incredible in the sports psychology, mentorship field, just incredible value, incredible value for any family that's out there. And we all know that the one thing, and we say this all the time, that we think the hockey world needs to do a better job of is parent education. Parent education and player life skills education. And this is a phenomenal, phenomenal product for anybody out there that thinks that that's important and wants some more of that. So go to icehockeysystems.com today on top of the amazing things that they have for all the coaches, including, you can get this for every single coach in your organization with the association platform. So go to icehockeysystems.com today, guys, and check it out. Go ahead, Jeffrey. - Well, we have a massive thank you to Train Heroic. You guys know Train Heroic is the awesome app and platform that has allowed me to train tens of thousands of hockey players online around the world since Voldemort 19, 2020, the year that we shall not speak of. But I can't thank those guys enough. They've created something awesome that has allowed me to work with all these players. So whether you are an individual hockey player looking for in season or off season training or a team or an entire organization, I work with all three types of those players in the game. Please reach out to me. It's extremely affordable. My whole thing with the online training is trying to help people save a bunch of money and actually still get quality training, not going to some random personal trainer that has no idea how to train a hockey player or athlete or Bridgette Gap between a young player trying to reach the goals at the higher levels of hockey. So that's why I do what I do. Online Train Heroic makes it happen. So thank you to Train Heroic. - Boom, also want to thank Helios Hockey, one of the best hockey products out there for hockey development. It is a sensor that you put into your shoulder pad and it gives you real-time data and feedback on your play, particularly number one, skating. Skating, one of the most important skills in hockey, got to be able to skate in today's day and age with how fast it has gotten. They have video breakdowns and they have great things on your skating strata mechanics that can help you to become a better skater and also what they call a hustle score. Every time you move, that thing lights up and gives you a hustle score, which the kids absolutely, absolutely love. But the kicker, the game changer, is the fact that it links up with whatever video you're using and you can get your shifts in a game or reps in a practice cut up for you directly after the game. No more fast forward rewind like we had to do with the VHS tapes back in the day or the DVTs. You get this on your iPad or whatever it is right after the game, unbelievable development tool as well. So go to helioshockey.com today and if you use the coupon code, think tank one word, you will get 20% off your pro 12 month or pro 24 month subscription or you can go to helioshockey.com/teams and get this for your entire team. Also want to thank Crossbar. Crossbar is an end-to-end software solution that can help you to really streamline the operations of your youth hockey club. I talked to a lot of youth hockey presidents. I talked to a lot of youth hockey directors and guys this thing is an absolute game changer. It's an absolute game changer to give you hours back in your day if you're in any leadership position within a youth hockey club. It's got an unbelievably easy to use back end and website design. It's got a five star communications app, the ability to run reports on financials, the ability to run reports for rink and facility, volunteer management. It's just, it's an easy way to streamline and make your life easier as part of the leadership of a club. So go to crossbar.org today and check that out. And guys, I promise you everybody that I know that has switched over to Crossbar has been very happy that they have crossbar.org today. And then lastly, thank you, thank you, thank you to all of our amazing listeners. Vex, we are almost at seven years. We're a couple of weeks away from seven years of doing this podcast. And so we continue to grind this thing out every week for all of you guys. If you think that we are doing a solid for the hockey world, please, please, please. If you can just interact with our podcast on whatever podcast app you are using, every like, every comment, every download, every rating, every follow, just goes to legitimizing our podcast and getting us into some more years because of that algorithm thing that everybody talks about. So if you can do that for us, that would be great. And this is just a phenomenal conversation, guys. One of my favorites that we've done since we started this thing almost seven years ago with a couple awesome hockey guys from East Grand Forks, Minnesota. We got Judd Stouse and we got Tyler Palmacino. We are so excited to have on this episode of the podcast, one of the best hockey towns in the world, East Grand Forks, Minnesota. We got Tyler Palmacino and Judd Stouse. Fellas, how are you guys doing today? - Good. You, you're over. - Oh man, I'm pumped. I've been waiting to have this conversation on the podcast here ever since I heard about what you guys were doing. And so I'm, I'm so excited to talk to you guys, but just to introduce you a little bit to our listeners first. Yeah, you guys both grew up playing up in the town. Both played college hockey. Tyler thought it's pretty cool. Played at North Dakota. Your dad played at North Dakota as well. Judd played University at Denver. But Tyler, we'll start with you. Like what's, what got you to fall in love with this? You have to imagine your dad was probably a big part of that, huh? - Yeah, for sure. I mean, my dad played hockey at North Dakota. He was actually the high school coach from the time I was born until about eight, nine years old in East Crab Forks. So I grew up, those first eight years of my life had the rank in the locker room. And yeah, fell in love with the game. Was fortunate enough to play high school. I played for some unbelievable coaches along the way. Jim Scanlon was, was a high school coach of mine who went on to Bemidji State coach there. My dad played for Dave Hachstahl in Sioux City, Iowa. For two years there. And then Dean Blaise, the great Dean Blaise at the University of North Dakota. And so, I mean, I think growing up, I always at one point knew I was going to coach. I just didn't maybe know where and fortunate enough to come back and coach here in East Grand Forks. - Unreal, that's amazing. And we have, once we get Vex on here, Judd, you guys had the same junior coach, Mike Hastings there in Omaha, but also grew up in East Grand Forks, went to the University of Denver. What was your similar path, falling in love with the game up there in East Grand Forks? - Yeah, very similar. My father had been involved in hockey pretty much from the get-go. And he got me involved at a young age and just kind of lived at the ranks and lived, eat and breathe, you know, the game of hockey. And just like Tyler was fortunate enough to, to obviously play high school hockey here in East Grand Forks and then move on to the Omaha Lancers where, like you just said, Mike Hastings was my coach along with Scott Pionk. And then from there we, or I went to the University of Denver, played for four years under George Guadastecchi. And I think my assistant's there, Steve Miller, Rico Blasey, Seth Apert. All still coaching out there in the coaching world. And then I played one year after, after for John Marks. He's a, - Oh, wow. - Old Marksy. So yeah, it was quite a ride. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, coming back to, to our hometown was, was always something I, you know, I figured I would do in the back of my head and, and then getting involved with our program before I had kids. And then obviously, probably a lot more here. I know a lot more since I do have three boys, so. - That's amazing. And yeah, so it's just funny how small the hockey world is. So Rico gave me my first job in hockey as a graduate assistant at Miami after he moved over that way. And actually Guaz, I think Guaz was guest number two on our podcast, like almost seven years ago now. And yeah, he's just a great guy, obviously great hockey guy. And I was actually just texting with killer. This is how small the hockey world is, guys. So I was just texting with killer Steve Miller, who you just mentioned, who is now an associate coach with University of Minnesota. And I texted him 'cause there was a really cool social media piece where Steve Miller went into St. Thomas where Rico Blasey is coaching to give the jersey and announce his son as the captain, or one of the captains for Rico's St. Thomas team. How crazy of a world is that? - Yeah, yeah, I saw that the other day. I had a laugh when they brought in killer and good for him, good for him, and good for Cole. But yeah, they coached together back at Denver. And I think in Miami too, didn't they? I believe so. - I think they might have crossed paths there. Yeah, that Guaz tree goes pretty wide. So, so cool, so cool. Well, I wanna get into some of the awesome stuff that you're doing up in East Grand Forks, guys. And the first thing that I wanted to ask you guys was Tyler as the head coach of the high school program. You know, one of the things that I see a lot in youth hockey in a lot of different places is just things are kind of siloed and things are kind of disjointed between, you know, different teams within the youth association. And for you as the high school coach, and then Judd working so much in the youth side of things, how important was it for you guys to really be aligned? Like the first thing I wanted to ask you guys was alignment and making sure there's a development path for every kid in the program as they aspire to get to your level, Tyler at the high school team. What were some of those conversations like where you guys are like, all right, we need to put a plan together. We need to be very aligned in what we do and how we develop players here. Yeah, I mean, I think it was hugely important. And I don't, I can't speak for any other, you know, high school or association, but in East Side, like I worked very closely with the youth hockey. I now have a two sons playing youth hockey, but even prior to that, you know, it wasn't a ton on the ice time prior to that, but it was a ton of time and just understanding what we're doing and why we're doing it because your high school program for us here is truly the end for 90% of the players, right? It's the highest level they're ever going to play. It is the end of our, even though they're no longer in the youth association, like it is part of our road, like from termites at five to 18 years old, our road ends at that point. And we want to compete annually for section and state titles. And in order to do that, you need the best biggest group of kids coming into your high school. And so working with Judd and, you know, our youth hockey kind of guy with Judd, Mark Draget, retired recently, but with him and now the new guy has been fantastic 'cause we all are aligned in what we want to accomplish. - Love that. And Judd, from your side of things too, you know, how important is it that the high school is involved with the youth and you guys are all kind of pulling on the same rope and going the same direction? - There's no question. It's extremely important and it's funny you bring this up because I've had, you know, numerous conversations with people outside or inside our state, but outside of our program that have had difficulties aligning with their high school coach. And I think, you know, here in Newst Grand Forks, you know, it is absolutely seamless. And, you know, like Tyler said, we talk all the time at just different things, like maybe what he's looking for. Where do we got to get better? Like, you know, at the high school level, well, we probably can't get a lot better at shooting and passing and some of the little things. But, you know, we bring that down to the youth level and all of a sudden, you know, we're working with 10 year olds and eight year olds, whatever, nine year olds. And then by the time they get up to Tyler, well, hopefully they're, you know, those skills that we've tried to implement have made those players a lot better. So when they get to high school, you know, they can be successful. So, you know, having, you know, Tyler and I on the same page along with, like you said, Mark and now John, I think is instrumental on where we're at and, you know, kind of where we're going. - Yeah, that's great. That's great. And you guys said something that I want to touch on really quickly here. And this is where, you know, there's certainly a lot of differences between the model there in Minnesota and what you're seeing everywhere else. And I think one of the biggest ones is, you know, keeping as many players involved for the longest amount of time. And we narrow the talent pyramid in so many other places really, really early. And our retention rates in a lot of other states, as far as kids leave in the sport, is getting bigger and bigger seemingly by the year in what we've seen in the research that we've done. How important is it for you guys? Like Tyler, you mentioned as many, right? And that's what USA Hockey and a lot of people, as many as possible for as long as possible in the best environment possible. You know, when you guys are doing your programming and thinking about how to develop players, how important is that to you guys? Is just let's make sure we get the most amount of kids involved in the game and staying in the game so we can have, when they get up to us, there's a bigger pool and a much more talented pool to kind of pull from. - Yeah, you know, at the high school, I think it's hugely important. I mean, you look at the AA level in Minnesota, you got Moorhead, Maple Grove, Minnetonka, who are kind of the cream of the crop annually. Well, they're starting with the most kids. But they do an unbelievable job developing them. But when you can pick from, you know, 150 bannums, pick the top 20, like you're going to be better than if you're picking 20 from 30. And so any side of smaller community, if we have like right now we got 50 Peelys, which is a huge number for us. Where our goal with that group is yes to improve them, but we want to make sure we have 50 bannums in two years. And then we want to make sure we have 50 high school kids that move up on that same group. So number one, it's important that we have a program where kids want to stay involved, but also from a competitive standpoint, as the high school coach, I want to try to pick 20 from 50 rather than 20 from 30 always. And I think that's the best recipe at the high school level. - Yeah, I love that. And Judd, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that on the youth side, especially, you know, retention. I feel like that's probably the most important job of any youth organization is keeping your kids. Obviously you want to grow and get more people in, but keeping them in, you know, based on the experience that you give them and the type of coaching that they get, the type of support that they get, but how do you guys view retention and keeping as many people in the program as possible? - You know, honestly, we're looking at it a lot of times at the end of every year, you know, kind of predicting what we're going to have for the, you know, upcoming year. And also at the beginning of the year, we're at now to see, you know, where we're at with numbers and whether it's termites, mites, squirts, pewees, and, you know, who we've lost and, or if we've lost anybody and, you know, who they are and if we can, you know, try to convince them to come back, but it is crucial. And, you know, like we talk here, like we can't leave anybody untouched. Like we have to try to develop every single kid. And that's, you know, that's our model. That's our philosophy. That's why we're, you know, practicing together for such a long time at these age groups and trying to, you know, trying to keep kids involved that, you know, maybe are sliding, sliding away. And, but like, like Tyler said, as many of the kids we can have at, whether it's the Peewee level to choose from, the Bannham level to choose from, and obviously we get to high school, the better off we're going to be. And our numbers typically are around the 36-ish, you know, mark for a two class. What I mean by that is like a Peewees, Bannams. We do have a large Peewee class, but that's not like, or normal. But yeah, to keep all those kids around and each level is crucial because, you know, when they get to the high school level, it changes. And just because they had, you know, the success that Peewees and Bannams, it's not the same in high school. So we need to have as many kids and keep as many kids involved to make sure that, you know, he has the opportunity to pull it from as many kids as possible. - You know, and the other thing too, is you truly don't know when a kid is going to change. You've talked about that a little bit. I know a lot recently, Topher, with your emphasis on Minnesota, but like kids develop and grow so differently. And we have a, I mean, we've had a couple kids come out in Peewees for their first time and organized hockey and just watching their development, their good athletes, you know, they have a chance to play high school after starting at Peewees. And I think that's part of what our system allows, is as long as we get them here, they're all going to get the same coaching and the same practice structures and the same opportunities as anybody else, whether you're a top one percenter or a first year hockey player. And that to me is truly the beauty of Minnesota. Minnesota hockey is that right there, if it's done right. - Yeah, that's unreal. And it's so funny, I was talking to a group of kids, not too long ago, and I was telling them how, like we had a great Bantam team. We actually won the national championship up in Bloomington that year. And the funniest part about it is the last player picked on our team was the only one to play in the NHL. - Yeah. - At 14 years old. And everybody thinks, oh my God, you know, it's not figured out at, you know, nine or 12. There's so much development to be had with that. And kind of dig it into it. I'd love to ask you guys. So seven or so years ago, you guys got into a room, you know, and I'm sure there was a lot of leadership in there. And I'm really wondering, you kind of set, I don't know if it was a new path, but you kind of went in a direction that was unified of, hey, this is how we're going to develop players. This is how we're going to do our programming, you know, moving forward. And I'm wondering what was the impetus of you guys getting together and saying, hey, maybe we can do something a little bit differently. Maybe we can do something a little bit better. What caused that, you know, you guys get into a new room and say, hey, let's chart maybe a different, better path forward? - My answer to that would be, it would be John. Like he was the driving force behind it. And I agreed with everything he said at just, at the time I was, I'd taken a couple years off of coaching high school and just coming back. And he kind of brought it to me over a few conversations and his, and he had done a ton of research already and it led to even more, but he was the driving force behind, let's make some changes. And again, Topher, like we were coming off two back-to-back state titles at the high school level. So to say it was broke would be wrong. It was just like, we can do better. And I think that's what we're constantly trying to do is what can we do better? - But I'll let Jud take it from there 'cause it truly was him. - Well, I don't know if I'm gonna agree with that, totally. I thought it was Tyler that brought it up to me as far as the half ice goes. But that's kind of where it started, right? We just started having conversations and the first conversation, maybe we revisited it in a month or two. I think the first conversation about it was, I know it was in the fall, early fall. And then the next one was probably prior to Christmas. But then, like Tyler said, it's a ton of research, a ton of looking into a lot of what Sweden's doing, a lot of what Finland's doing and how are they producing hockey players at such a high rate with such a small hockey population compared to the Canada's and the United States. And they're competing for world junior championships, they're competing for, well, when we do the Olympics and stuff like that, and so how can they do it? Why? And so we looked into what their model was, how they were developing a lot. And from there, we started talking, him and I, we looked at case studies and looked at, listen to podcast and we would then went into our director and said, "Hey, we got an idea." And as soon as we got the idea, we had the idea and that word started to get out a little bit. Well, then the talent got a little lancy. And there were some discussions as to why we're doing it, this and that and compromising. And by the end, I think we had a one, I can't remember if it was before, 'cause we had one meeting in April, I believe it was when we brought out the program to the squirts, the squirt parents, I should say. And we did have a meeting with a few parents after that where we had to, again, kind of stick to our process and stick to what we believed in and we did exactly that. And we're, I think we're now we're going on year number seven. So it's been an awesome, awesome squirt program. And it's just the amount of, the amount of hockey they play in one year is incredible. It really is. - Yeah, that's awesome. So let's get into the meat of it. I'd love for you guys to just kind of tell our listeners a little bit about what were some of the things that you guys implemented with your squirt program that might have been a little bit different. So before we get into like the rollout and I would love to ask you guys how whenever there's change, usually there's some friction to that and there's some pushback, which I would imagine there was a little bit. But if you can just tell our listeners a little bit about what you guys did a little bit differently, some of the changes that you made and you know, you're talking about the Sweden model and the Finland model, what does that look like in East Grand Forks? - Yeah, I mean-- - Go ahead, John, yeah. - When we, you know, when we rolled out the program to the parents, the biggest change was that we're gonna go to Half Ice until the middle of January. And that was really a shock to, you know, to the squirt parents, especially the second year squirt parents who had already played one year of full ice. And when you get into these teams, you know, you're A teams, you're B1 teams, you're B teams, you're hardly any B teams you have. I mean, some of those squirt teams are already picked, right, in Minnesota. So they're already practicing with their perspective teams where in East Grand Forks, we're always practicing together. So we have every kid on the ice together from, I mean, we started our camps three, four weeks ago. We'll continue with a different camp coming up. And we have the exact same, if you've signed up, players on the ice all the time. So it's not an A player versus a B player. It's everybody on the ice, you know, and I think that was a big adjustment as well. You know, the Half Ice games were a big adjustment, but the practicing too, it was a lot more station-based, a lot more small area games, utilizing the ice time to, you know, to, you know, down to the second. And basically, you know, we're trying to get, squeeze every ounce of development out of these kids that we possibly can. And that was our focus. And to this day, you know, it hasn't changed and would continue to push the envelope as much as we possibly can. - Yeah, I can imagine. So can you dive a little bit deeper guys, just into, you know, what a typical practice looks like. And just a couple of questions I have, obviously you talked about it being station-based, but one of the biggest questions that I get from people as it relates to how they structure their practices is kind of how you group players together based on talent. Is it everybody altogether? Is it, are you kind of stratifying a little bit by some A players and B players and C players type stuff? So I would love to know a little bit more about just kind of what a typical practice would look like in East Grand Forks for your squirts. - So one thing Topher, it's like, so one of the things with our practice, practice is the station-based or whatever we're doing with the practices, especially on that squirt PV group, is we try to stick and Judd's referred to it, I think, 'cause a one-to-one work-to-rest ratio where you go, whether if you go for 20 seconds, you're only resting one rep and you're going back again. So Judd does a fantastic job of having groups. So if we're in a five-station practice, he already has the five groups set up before practice. If somebody does a show up, we'll adjust. For short, we'll figure it out. And those groups change just about weekly. So it's not out. You're not always with the same five or six kids, but it is based on ability, right? And so you have like players always against like players, which really benefits everybody. Nobody's going through a drill or playing a game when they never get to touch the puck. And nobody's doing the same thing where they can always have the puck and it's easy. It really flows fantastically. And some of our practices, I would say, would be five-station, six-station. Some of them may be three. I mean, it really depended on what the goal and objective is that day. A lot of times they start with the skating, some skating stuff, or warm-up stations, and then we go into five stations and we'll finish with games or more games. - Do you agree with that, John? - Yeah, and like Tyler just said, the biggest thing is the work-to-rest ratio. That's our goal. And those adjustments may have to be made, quite honestly, right during practice. If we see a drill where kids are sitting in line too long, we'll adjust it immediately and add. Instead of a two-on-two, maybe it's a three-on-three, or if it's a one-on-one, it's a two-on-two. Because ultimately we want that one-to-one work-to-rest ratio, which we're trying to get obviously with our squirts, even on a PV level. Mites and termites are the same. But, and like Tyler said, yeah, it's, we're grouping players together, so they're always competing against up-like players, which is important for everybody, like he said. And I think it really gets those kids engaged, gets them excited because they know what type of player they're gonna be going against. And also for the players who might not want to go against the higher-level players. It gives them a chance to get creative with the puck, to handle the puck, to shoot the puck, to score a goal. And that's part of you talk about keeping players in your program. Well, if we did it a different way and these kids come out on the ice and they never touched a puck, they never shot a puck, they just spun around in circles because you had the higher-ability players playing against them all the time. Well, maybe that kid doesn't come back the next day or the next year. So I think the way that we do it has worked. We've done that from day one. And I think it's certainly paid off. - I love that so much. Now, let me ask you guys this. That's gotta come with a lot of coordination with the coaches as well. I would imagine anytime you run a station-based practice, the coaching education side and the alignment between the coaches that are gonna be on the ice is gonna be incredibly impactful. And so what do you guys do just in terms of, do you guys provide the coaches the practice plan? Do they have some wiggle room for each of the stations and what they're doing? How do you guys kind of structure the coaching side of it as you guys are going onto the ice? Judd, maybe we'll start with you on that one. - Yeah, that's a good question. Coaches are crucial. There is no doubt having enough coaches on the ice because running a station-based practice, you've number one, you gotta be very well-organized. Again, we're trying to maximize it. In a one-hour practice, 60 minutes, we start right on the dot. What we're fortunate with though is that these coaches have run station-based practices since they were termites. So yes, when you come on as a termite coach, you're probably a little green and you don't understand exactly what we're looking for. But you learn throughout that year, by the time you get to mites, it gets better or it's gotten a lot better. Squirts, it's seamless. They get a plan shot to them now on phone most of the time where we'll send out a group message with the practice plan and most drills are named. So by now they know all the drills or if we have a new one, they'll ask about it. And then they'll pick their drills and then we like literally the Zamboni goes out on the ice to resurface and our coaches are out there getting dividers out, getting nets out, getting whatever we're doing that day, we're ready to go. So when we get on the ice, we have kind of everything in place or close to where we're doing it in case we have like a warmup drill, which we normally do. So without the cooperation of our, and most of them are parent coaches, it wouldn't work. - It's so incredibly important to have, we talk about player retention, but coach retention is just as maybe even more important in having people out there and like, so the fact that you guys are doing all you're doing to support the coaches to make sure that they understand what's going on in the plan and they're developing as well, that's everything. That's everything because coaches or players can't develop without coaches developing either. So I love that. So that's great. So we talk about just kind of like the structure of what the practices look like, talk about some of the coaching education side of things. How about this, I wanna know, you guys go from at the squirt level, like if we were having this conversation with a bunch of hockey directors anywhere else, pretty much around the country, and we said, we're gonna go half ice at squirts, you'd probably either get shot or looked at like you were, you know, from a different planet. I'm wondering why you guys did that. And again, we just did a conversation that that'll actually the way, when the day that we are recording this, we recorded this last week. So it's not out yet with our uncle Tim, who's a very big full ice, might hockey advocate. And we had a little debate with him on that, which was hilarious. But why did you guys feel like it was important to go to half ice games? I wanna talk about that first. And then I wanna talk about kind of keeping everybody together until January, but just on the half ice side of it, especially even at the squirt level, why did you guys do that in your development model? Well, I'd start with that research we did on the way they do it, Sweden, and they actually ran studies and had statistics on what a game looks like, whether it's a third of the ice, a six of the ice, you know, full ice at 8U, 10U, 12U, and they had statistical measurements for shots on that confrontations with the puck, all those things. And we settled that at the 10U level where squirts on half ice. And one of the things I always go back to, it's real simple. Like I have a 12 year old right now, he's a Peewee. He had a soccer game last night. Their soccer game wasn't on a full-size soccer field, right? 10U squirts don't play full-size baseball field. They're not in a full-size football field. But you had in hockey, we think it's not hockey, unless it's 285. Like we had parents say to us, "Well, this isn't even hockey." You know, and I'm like, "Well, yeah." Actually, it's more like hockey than-- (laughing) Or in my opinion, and so, yeah. I mean, we went to half ice with the boards, half ice boards, and honestly, it's been unbelievable. And if you were to show up at a game on Friday night or Sunday, like our kids actually love it. So they do, yeah. - Yeah, the data doesn't lie. - I'll talk a little bit about that as well, Toa, for the other driving force. And like Tyler talked about, you know, the hockey plays that you make in a half ice game compared to a full-size game at the 8U or 10U level, it's night and day, right? And you talk about shots on goal. You talk about transitions. You talk about, you know, saves for a goal tender. All those little plays where you have to do in that shortened rink, it just maximizes your development. There's no really way to do that on full ice because you're chasing the best player down the ice, you're chasing the best player back down the ice. And I think we looked and we did this. We looked at it, there was a shot, a squirt shot to our game sheet in one of the rinks. And it was the same year we did this. I think our goalie had three saves for the game. We did our half ice games and counted saves and he was at 50 in one game. The difference just right there. And obviously if he's got 50 saves, that's 50 shots. That's 50, who knows how many shot attempts. But then you looked at your ice time. And I think I told Tyler this a few weeks ago or a month ago, but if you take a traditional program right now in squirts, they're getting into their teams, they're gonna play, before Christmas, they'll probably play 12 to 15 games. And of those 12 to 15 games, if you take, again, traditional numbers, they're gonna probably see around 170 minutes of on ice time, which means that particular player will have 170 minutes of play time. In our half ice games, up to that same exact point, our players on ice time will be around 750 to 800 minutes. So right there, I mean, that should be enough to drive anybody to wanna go to something like this because the on ice touches that they get are not even close. And that's just to Christmas. And then we still play some half ice, probably three more weeks of it. And then we sprinkle it in still after Christmas as well, like January and February, not as much because teams are traveling. But when we play our on ice, it's every other shift. It's just like we talked about with practices. Our work to rest ratio, if we gotta play four on four, we play four on four. If we gotta play five on five, we play five on five. We're not gonna have teams of 12. We'll create another team, you know what I mean? So it's just, it's that work to rest ratio. It's those touches and the amount of ice time that they get, you just can't, you can't duplicate. - That's incredible. That's incredible. Can you guys even talk? 'Cause you mentioned it before and now you mentioned it now in the games that you guys are playing, but work to rest ratio. I think if you talk to a lot of people who go in the rinks, one of the biggest pet peeves that people have is, you know, one kid going and 10 kids standing in line, you know, where it's a 10 to one rest to work ratio. Can you guys talk a little bit about why you think that that is so important in practices and games? - Well, I mean, I think in practice, like the more, you only get better when you're moving. I truly have yet to see a 10 year old get that tired. You know, sometimes like you're physically more mature 10 year old will start to fatigue, maybe just a tish, but it's not significant, but you can't get better in a line. You can't get better sitting on a bench. And that's again, going back to like our whole objective is to maximize the ice time we have and to give kids the best opportunity to achieve what they can be. You know, when we do our in-house stuff, as Judd said, if it's either have teams of eight or 10, just about, we never have more than 10, so they go every other shift. And when we go to our travel teams at squirts, it's a max of 10 on a team. So they're, even in a full ice game, when we do it after, you know, the first of the year, they're going every other shift. We go to a weekend tournament. We potentially play five, six games. They're going every other shift. You know, the bench on the other side may have 12. We've seen benches with 14, 15, 10 years that we're going. You know, that doesn't make sense to us. But, and you want to talk about fun, it's you want to have 10 year old have fun, put them on the ice. You want to board, let them sit on the bench too long. I mean, that's right. If you're having fun, you don't get tired at 10 years old. - Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, let me, let me ask you guys this now, because I feel like there's a lot of people that are listening to this that I would know who would be like, yeah, okay, it's a great idea. No chance we can do this. No chance can we convince people that this is the right way to develop kids, even though the data says XYZ, even though we kind of know that it makes a lot of sense, just with kind of how youth hockey has been professional. It was actually really interesting. I was having a conversation with a buddy of mine the other day and they have like a two third sheet in their town and they play their mites on the two third sheet and everybody's fine with it. Like nobody cares because it looks like hockey instead of what doesn't quote unquote look like hockey. But like how, when you talk about going half ice and then you talk about keeping your kids in house until January before they can go and travel, like again, you would need bodyguards coming into a rink in Chicago if you tried to come in with those radical ideas. How were you guys able to, and especially the travel part, especially the travel part, we're gonna do this in house here. How do you guys sell that to the parents and the people who are within the organization who potentially might be like, this is not, my kid needs more, we need to be traveling. How were those conversations when you guys rolled us out? - The first year was obviously the toughest and that was that meeting back in April. And that's when we had obviously the most pushback and it was mainly from kids that parents who had played, already played the one year of full ice and would have to go back to the half ice. The first year parents were okay, but it kind of goes back to your belief. It goes back to our process. It goes back to developing hockey players and ultimately, we have to have some thick skin at the beginning, or still, and be able to stick to our process and not deviate from it, via pressure. It worked just fine. We gave them the summer to kind of cool down a bit. And did everybody love it that first year? Probably not, but at the second year it got better, the third year it got better and now it's just the norm. So we don't really have to convince anybody now that it's the right way to do it. It's our way and that's how we do it. And I think we've talked, last time we talked to you about our kind of our progression where our termites, they start off on one sixth of the ice and they might place six different games where our mites are playing cross ice and at the end of the year, they might get a play in a, they really do get a play in a half ice jamboree and our squirts, they start the year with a half ice and then they get a play full ice at the second half of the year. So it's kind of just a progression that we believe in, for sure, and the parents now see it, so it's a lot easier now and they see the results, they see their kids getting better. The kids have to get better. They don't have a choice, right? The amount of ice time they're getting, the way that they're practicing, like they're just, they're forced to get better. They're not sitting on the bench. They're not sitting in lines and ultimately it just, it forces a kid to get better because of how they're treated, how they're practicing, how they're playing. - Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And can you talk a little bit to just about the structure of how you guys start to kind of phase into a little bit more of the travel at the squirt? Because here, you know, just I'm in Chicago and it's travel, you know, from seven U and up and you're out and you're traveling and some teams are, you know, going to tournaments out of state three or four times a year, five times a year. We have my AAA now here in Chicago. Some a little bit less, it's a little bit more local, but it's a little bit more club. How did you guys just kind of ideate as far as, hey, like let's make our kids better here before we kind of go out and play against other towns and stuff, maybe doing some jamborees. Just structurally, what does that look like at the squirt level for you guys? - Well, like going into this year to over, like, you know, I think there's, what, there are 30 squirts, Judd? - Yeah. - Yeah, so we'll start there in-house here in the couple of weeks, Friday, Sunday games, practice all together. And then by Christmas time, we pick the, you know, the A team and two B teams would be picked, whatever that comes out to. The other thing that we haven't talked about at the 10-U level, and this is really important too, is like, we really don't have a trial process for 10-U. Like the, when they start their in-house games, they're kind of evaluated throughout the process and the end of it, they're placed on a team based on those coaches, volunteers, evaluations of them. So there's no like three, four day stressful window where mom and dad are absolutely paranoid about what team they're on, which I think is unbelievably important in this process, especially at the 10-U level. They get to the end of it, they're placed on a team, they will show up the next day and practice all together again, all 30. Like as one group of each side, green wave hockey players, which as a high school coach, I think is really important. And then they'll start their A-B-1 games about January 1st, give or take, depending on the schedule. - Yeah, that's incredible. I think it's, yeah, the trial part of it too. 'Cause that is such a stressful weekend for so many different people and it's crazy because you stress playing multiple sports, right? And so you want them to play different sports in the spring and the summer, and then they get back in August or they get back in September and then it's a three day trial after not skating for potentially a couple months outside of maybe a camp or something like that leading into the tryouts. And it's a lot better of an evaluative tool when you get like two or three, four months to kind of look at what the kids are doing as opposed to two, three or four days. And so then you're grouping kids again together and you can, you know, based on your development and your work ethic and how much you develop, you might think that you're gonna start as a B-player, but then all of a sudden like you're just working really hard and making an impression and you end up making the A-Team too, which is really, really cool. So I love that. So let me ask you guys this, you know, Tyler as the high school coach, you guys win a state championship last year and some of these kids that you started this seven years ago with are now coming up into the program, looking at it from the top down and looking at the process and what you guys have been able to do and now winning a state championship here again. What's like, what are your thoughts? Just kind of as the high school coach and seeing the progression of kids that are now coming up into you at the high school level, does it validate what you guys have been doing? Are you so proud of kind of what you guys have been able to accomplish? I would love to just hear your thoughts on what this process was like and what you're seeing now at the ages that the kids are now coming into you at. - Yeah, so the group that would have been second years, you're one of this, when we kind of made these changes, would have been sophomores on that team last year. So the first group to get two years at the tenure level of this will be this sophomore group this year. And so, yeah, I mean, I don't think we've truly seen the true benefit of this even yet. And I don't know what the end is going to look like. I like where we're at as a program. I like the type of kids that we have. I like the skill sets that are coming up and into the high school program. And like I said, we've also, in the last couple of years, we've made changes at our PWE level. We made, I mean, with their practice structures and what we're doing. 'Cause when we did this, it made us reevaluate everything in every level. Like even at the high school level, as we were going through this, I was like, "Shit, I need to look at what I'm doing "and what I can do better "and how we can utilize practice times better "at the 18-year level." And so, from the top down, I think it's been, again, I just think it's been fantastic to evaluate where you're at and how we can constantly get better. - Yeah, that's great. And then Judd, on your side, working with the youth, what do you feel like you've learned in the last seven years? How have you kind of tweaked some things even more? Just kind of evaluate, looking at it seven years later, and some of these kids are now on the state championship high school team. What are just your reflections on the past seven years since implementing this? - You know, it's obviously loving to see the high school team win another state championship. That's great for our city, great for our town, great for our program. But like Tyler said, we're not there yet when it comes to really, truly evaluating all these kids who have went through our process. And we talk about, we talk a lot about the squirts, but really it starts at the termite level, right? And if we don't start with the right foundation with our termites and then continue that with our mites and then into squirts, we're gonna be behind if we just forget about the termites and mites. So that truly, the second year bannums are the first group that are gonna go through all of it with the termites, mites, squirts, Peewees, and then into bannums. So I really like where our program's at from a standpoint of, it doesn't matter if it's an A team, of the A team, it's the group of bannums, it's the group of Peewees, it's the group of squirts. And one of my proudest moments honestly was a couple of years ago when at the squirt level at the district tournament, our squirt A team won the district tournament. Our squirt B1 won the district tournament and our squirt, our two squirt B teams played each other for the championship to win their district tournament. So we had all four teams and one of the finals was against each other. And that's happened a couple of times, not just like that, but where our B teams are playing each other in the final or our B1s win it and squirts win it. So just seeing that, that success is crucial. And it's good for the parents obviously to see, it's good for the program to see. And I just think that, like Tyler said, we try to keep the press in the envelope. What are we gonna do next? How are we gonna improve? What are we gonna do with our Peewees or bannums or whatever it may be. And like Tyler said, he's made some changes at high school. So I really think to get a really good gauge of all these changes, you really don't see it for a few more years yet. But at our youth level, I couldn't be more prouder. And I know Tyler would probably say the same. I think we're in a good spot. But we got to keep pushing the envelope. We're trying to compete with, we're playing double A hockey at the youth level. So we're trying to compete with the older, the bigger towns. And so we have to try to find that little way, that little niche that we can get our kids better to be able to compete. - Amazing. - I think one of the, like one of the telling points for me that it's working was last year, our Peewee B1 team made the state tournament for the first time in program history. And at the B1 level, it's usually dominated by teams that only have a B1 team or your big time associations that have huge numbers. And for our Peewee B1 team, I think they ended up finishing third or fourth at the state tournament. But for them to make the B1 state tournament, I thought was a huge accomplishment for those kids number one, but also like the coaches in our program that were developing all the players properly. - Incredible, incredible. So cool. Well, one last question I have for you guys, you know, just talking about the culture of what's been created there. Because in so many other places, right? It's like, go, go, go, fast, fast, fast, travel, travel, travel as early as possible. And we got to make it professional at these youngest of ages. And I think what that's done to the youth hockey cultures, it's put a fracture in there. And it's made a lot of people very stressed and it's created a lot of FOMO for a lot of families out there. And so I'd love to ask you guys with, you know, taking a breath and doing things in-house and doing things your way in East Grand Forks, what that has done to just kind of like the overall hockey culture, has it made things more positive? Are people more pulling on the same rope instead of it being so competitive so early? How has your decision to kind of make this changed, changed or enhanced or better, just the culture of hockey in and of itself in the city that you guys are in? - You know, I think we're pretty fortunate and I would say all the communities in Northern Minnesota and Northwest Minnesota that I'm aware of, like for the most part it's like the cultures act pretty good. Like we, I mean, you talk about travel and everything, well regardless, players play spring and fall, triple A hockey still up here, my kids do too. So like, that was the one funny thing with this whole thing about travel hockey and full ice games and like, just go to one more spring tournament. Like, you know, with your triple A team, like if you, and so, I mean, I can't speak for the community, but I, you know, again, the Northwest Minnesota, like we're pretty isolated up here and I think the culture is very positive as a whole. - Awesome. - Awesome. - Yeah, I would agree. You know, I think I don't hear any rumblings anymore, any complaining about, you know, where we're at. In fact, I hear more compliments than anything. And I think that overall the community or the hockey community has certainly brought in to the process and they're on board. And that's what ultimately what you need to be successful if we had, you know, a bunch of fighting going on and arguing going on and, you know, different mindsets. I think that would be a different story, but I think, you know, we're really on the same page and the coaches, they see it and, you know, the PV coaches see it when a, you know, a group of squirts comes up and all of a sudden, oh my God, you know, look at these guys. It's not just the best players, it's all of them. Like, look at the, you know, the B1 players or the B players, you know, they're gonna have a good year and same thing when they get to ban them. So it's believing, it's trusting the process. And ultimately, I think the coaches have believed in it. They've, you know, they've trusted it. I'm sure some of the older, I know some of the other coaches were a little one-shot when we all started, but, you know, I think the belief is, I know the belief is there now. And like I said before, it takes all of us to make this work. It's, you know, it's not, it's not just me. It's not just Tyler, it's everybody. It's all the coaches, the parents, the players. And, you know, I think we've got a good thing going. - Amazing guys. Well, thank you so much for taking some time to hop on with us here today. Just, we want to keep you for a couple minutes longer, just a couple to do our 10 questions that'll be in our HTTU, but this, this was awesome guys. We really, really appreciate your time. You're doing an amazing thing up there. And I think it's going to do a lot in the hockey world here when, when more people hear about what you're doing. So appreciate your time. 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