Rerelease: Walton Goggins

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and add free right now join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Leslie Stahl. Oh my gosh. She comes up occasionally back in the old days she would pop up a lot. That is high praise. Very high praise. I love Leslie Stahl. Yeah. She's great. She's a firecracker. Okay. Long time coming. Number one current obsession as an actor going on three years now probably Walton Goggins. Walton Goggins, Goggle Glasses, Uncle Baby Billies, Bible bonkers. This guy is an alliteration wet dream. Yes. I love Walton Goggins. Let me use an incredible actor, but he was also a beautiful person. Such an interesting colorful person. There should be a warrant for just best across the board actor. It's not on a single project and it's just it's like best romantic grace comic, whatever. There's just best actor and I think Walton would be the shoe and I agree because there's nobody doing comedy better and there's nobody doing drama better. Fall out justified righteous gemstones, vice principles, the hateful hate. He stole the hateful hate, which is hard to do. That's a hell of a cast. Season three of the white lotus. It wasn't enough. He was in my favorite comedy show, righteous gemstone or that he was in my favorite action show. Now he had to join my favorite dramedy white lotus. All the genres. What a dick. Also Walton Goggins, Goggle Glasses learn more at Gogginsgoggles.com. You'll hear us in the goggles at the top of the show. Yeah, we'll be fully if you're watching. We're adorned in the Goggle Glasses. Yeah, we are. Okay. Now this is a big merch update. Yes. Huge update. So we were unable to do our own merch. We have to do our merch through Amazon Wondry. We have asked them if we can just do it while we're getting that sorted and we have a one month window where we've got a bunch of really cool well thought out merch. You can go to www.armchairexpertpod.com. A bunch of cool designs. A lot of things that were on the limited edition sweatshirts are not making their way to t-shirts. It's some additional designs and some sweats and it's a really cool little collection. Yes, and this is not calculated into a pressure cooker, but it will be about a month long that we're allowed to do this. I mean, there's a chance we might be able to continue it. We don't know. We don't know. We're just letting you guys know it's up. We know we have the month. So order now. There'll be a delay because we have to make it all and ship it. So if you need it overnight, that's probably not going to fail. It's a pre-sale. But go there and order all the stuff you want and then it'll get to you at some time. Go to www.armchairexpertpod.com. Get your merch. Get your merch. Please enjoy Walton Goggins. Coca-Cola glasses. Oh, hey. Whoa. Wait a minute. Whoa. Is there a guest? Go ahead. I think we have a star of the show. I'm just a guest star. Money. You want to slide yours? Sure. I put them there for you. Yes, I would. Earlier, we could start in them. Oh, my. He brought you specifically blue. Honey, sit on the couch for half a second. You're not even Mike, but pop your pop your products. This bitch puts product. Pickleball, skydiving, weird on the boat, scuba diving. You ever cut onions in these bad boys? Oh, I've cut onions in there. Yeah, yeah. Wait to cut onions in these bad boys. Yeah, they're comfortable. This feels like we're having an interview on a chairlift on the way up the mountain. He does. Which kind of happens. You're sitting on that chairlift for minutes and minutes. You got to be talking about some stuff, right? I feel this is such a good product for you. You know how sometimes people have brands that feel like I don't get the A to B. This is an A. Why does Tom Cruise have lawn care equipment? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But does he have lawn care equipment? Does he have lawn care? Yeah, no. Top gun mower. Say the name out loud. Walton Goggins, Goggle Glasses. I mean, that's as close to GG. That's as close to GG. There's some similarities there. I mean, there's some similarities there. athlete at all. But really the thing that I got at a play in sports more than anything else was, I just love the equipment man. I just love putting on the football pad. I love it. I'm gonna love pep rally. Let me ask, wearing them right now. Do you think that you would go for a pickleball shot that you might otherwise not go for since you have a strap on your head? Hunter Pete, I feel very cool in these. Honey, if you walk straight out of here and get in my Z-Wagon and drive the stick shift like your Mario fucking undready because of those, I won't be shocked at all. I've never driven a stick. That's right. We live 15 minutes from ski resort where we are now in the Hudson Valley. This isn't like Aspen, Colorado. But it's kind of hot. It's a super cool place. And I would drop my kid off at school and like any good dad, I'll go skiing. Like most American dads. Yeah, like 10 runs and then I'll have a beer. Oh, what are you? Sit outside and there's a fire pit kind of out there and then go home and take a nap and sober up everyone's promise and go pick up my kid. But one particular day I was sitting out and it's cold and I got these goggles on whatever the Oakley cool glasses are. Just sitting there having a beer. I said I never want to take these glasses off. Sure. Where are we all when it comes to reading glasses? Do you need them? Do you not need them and go? Year and a half ago my eyes died. Yeah. I don't know what happened but it was overnight and now I'm at a one. I guess is my prescription. I don't think they're very strong but when my kids put them on, they make quite a bit of fun. Well, they get a headache instantly. I do have to wear them a lot. With my wife, who's older than I am? Just a couple of years, baby, I'm so sorry. Shout out. I wasn't gonna say two years and two days. November 8th, she's Scorpio. I won't say the year, baby. You couldn't even see me wink, can you? Because you don't really know what's going on in my thoughts. But she said it's coming for you and I said, I don't think so. And then literally so happen overnight and it did. And then the next night, you know, blind, laid down to read and blind. Your representatives, your publicists, I bet in their best case scenario, they hoped we would talk about these glasses for 30 seconds. Yeah, I'm guessing I was kind of about it. The Mystic State, they're like, I pray they bring them up and I hope they do 30 seconds on them. And we've done legit a good 15 minutes. I want to tell you sincerely, 850 guests, she's asked to come meet I think four people where she said, what time are you recording? I'm going to make sure I'm not doing anything. I must meet this person in your one or four. We work together. We work together. So sorry. But Dex's point stands, people are in and out of this yard all the time. People that I know, people that I don't know, people that I respect, people that I'm fans of. And I've come in to say hi to maybe four or five people. And you were definitely one of them because how do you even say it? You're a number one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have the evidence. I have on this show numerous times that you are my number one. So yeah, they're great to mask public crimes. We left that out. There isn't anyone I've ever seen that is apex drama and apex comedy the way you are. It seems impossible to be honest, to go from righteous to fall out in one year. It's staggering. And the fact that you were in that disgusting mask on fallout and every woman in America was still like, I want that sexy radiation cowboy in my bedroom. You got the rhythm. I love you. Yeah, that I got to see you. It's really. Oh, well, you don't really have the body of a beer drinker when you said that. I was like, I don't buy it. He's one of these guys though. We're going to get into these charms. Those are yours. They're yours. And yours look great as a hair band. Yeah, I love it as a hair band. It's very exciting names. And then we'll just kind of move on to something else. The white ones are cumulonimbus, which is a cloud formation. Yes, they are. I think they're the coolest. It's like, he's rocking some white goggle glasses with a red, white and blue band. It's confidence. It's very cool. And then we have a new R pair of black pair called mama skillet named after my mama skillet. Okay, we're going to pin it. Mama skillet. Yeah, these are Tortuga. You got to have a tortoise shell, man. So what is the word Tortuga? Where is it come from? It means black and brown pattern. Oh, okay. It's not. No, it's a turtle. It's a type of turtle. It's a turtle. Yeah, it's Spanish. Oh, it's Spanish. Yes. And then we have Limoncello, which is yellow. And then we have the color that you're wearing, which is guess what? Blue. Wow, decided to go real conventional. Which is comical because if any color deserved a adjective before it, it would be blue. There's so many kinds, but you're like, no, there's only one blue. And this is the. Yeah, you're thinking differently. Oh, okay, walk. Got questions. Okay, here we go. We're going to get serious now. Okay, let's get so serious. So yeah, you get it. I love you so much. I have been wanting this to happen for very, very long. And I was working with Rob Cordray for a period who I adore. And then I found out you guys are close and you would vacation together in Europe, which sounds exactly what I'd imagine you do. Always so elegant. And maybe I want to jump to one thing to then come back to where you're from, because I was watching an interview with you and you were discussing having been offered justified to be in the pilot. You were going to die and justified. And that was going to be it. You read it and you turned it down twice for a very specific reason. And I want you to tell me why, because I really liked it. I'm a huge Elmore Leonard fan for one thing, but I felt that it was so one dimensional. And because I can afford not to do this anymore. Yeah, for much of your early career, all of us, we got to play what they offer. Absolutely. I mean, if you're Italian and you're from New York, chances are you're going to you're going to shoot somebody. Yeah, absolutely. You're going to be in some fucking pasta. Absolutely. And you're going to smile while you're doing it. But we all look for boxes to kind of fit in when we're starting out. And it just so happened to be at that point in my life that I'd gotten out of the number of those boxes. And this was one box that I just felt like I can't perpetuate this stereotype and sell out my culture anymore. From an outsider's perspective, like a lot of different cultures in America, they're reducible to one impersonation. And it's like, okay, well, if I can speak like this, you know, when I come down here, like, I'm from the South, what does that even fucking mean? I mean, the South represents a third of this country, each region and each state and each part of every state is very unique. Like the state of New York, the state of New York isn't just New Yorkers. I live in the state of New York now. Too dramatically different cultures, actually. You live in Brooklyn, right? Yeah. Manhattan and Hudson Valley. That's right. But it just felt like I was at a place in my life where I just was unwilling to do that to participate in the perpetuation of this. Yeah. And I think everybody, you know, at some point whenever you can kind of step out, you don't need the money. Amorally, you just don't think that it's right. And you don't want to feel shame whenever you're visiting those places that you're just another part of the problem. This is where the conversation ends. And I wanted it to be where the conversation began. And so on the third conversation we had after I turned it down twice. And I say that I'm not proud of it. There's no ego involved in that whatsoever because I'm such a huge fan of Tim Mollifense and Michael dinner who was directing it and wrote a good bit of it, but Graham Yosks who wrote the pilot. On the third time I said, okay, I'll do it two things. I'm the smartest person in the room always. After I say this very long speech in the pilot. It was kind of crazy racist rant. That's right. That you say this one line, which is I know you don't believe half the things that you're saying. You just need an audience. I just needed a version of that line for him to see through that, which is true. It's crazy having watched it not knowing that story and how important that weird detail was because it also built this rapport with you too, which makes it so much more compelling. You have a past in that little line that you were wanting to not perpetuate ends up also being this other layer. What also allows the audience to kind of come into the experience? No one has tolerance for intolerance. Really, I don't. It just gave the audience the opportunity to experience this person. And really to go forward, I ask for those things, not with a six year contract. This was just the pilot and die. We'll do this thing and just give me that and then I can sleep better at night. And you know, you're so fucking incredible after they tested every single person like, well, no, no, he can't die. Yeah, it just adds a third dimension to a person. We had a guest that so beautifully articulated this, you know, the author, Barbara King solver by chance. She wrote the Pulitzer Prize winning book last year, Demon Copperhead. Oh, yeah. Okay. The most beautiful book. I read it. My whole family's from Kentucky. She said in that book, she's trying to explain how it feels to be in the South and especially in Appalachia. She described it as, we're in the bathroom stall in high school. We hear the popular kids making fond of us. We get these TV shows. We get these songs. We can hear you. It's so fucking offensive and hurtful. Yeah. And you don't even care. I just had a whole renewed compassion for one of the great stereotypes that kind of persists in some ways. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this, but it's permissible in urban culture, certainly on both coast. It's low hanging fruit. It's always there. You can always go to it. You can always get a laugh from your constituents and they're part of it. They're also in the audience. It's hurtful. So you were born in Birmingham, Alabama, but you grew up in Georgia or Monica grew up as well. I'm from Georgia. Whoa. I know you're talking about Kentucky, but I'm from Georgia. A little peach. That's right. A little peach. Ateel. Yeah, Duluth. We're in Georgia. You know, we lived in a fucking trailer and Birmingham, Alabama. First year of my life, my mom's sisters lived. I think it was like, I don't know, five or six people. My parents got divorced pretty early. What age? Three, maybe two and a half, but my earliest memories are with my mom and Decatur, Georgia, which is right downtown. It's very cool now. There's so many great places in Atlanta now. Like so many cities in America had this whole new generation just kind of come in and give me some third wave coffee and fucking great sourdough bread. What's coming next? Oh, Mediterranean food. Fantastic. But Lithia. Do you know Lithia? Lithia Springs. We moved out which is west side. My mom and I lived in Decatur three years. One of my earliest memories. I couldn't have been more than four. I have a lot of memories from that house that we lived in. The Stu Plex. But one is one of the scariest memories of my childhood of my life. Really? My mom's bedroom's in the front. My bedroom's in the back. She's a young woman. She's beautiful woman. She had a super cool boyfriend and I've sucked in my bed alone. You are only child at that point? Only child. And I went to sleep. My little twin bed is right up against the wall. My upper torso was next to the wall from my knees down in front of a window. Just as I was about to fall asleep, there was a light in the back yard and I had whatever the fucking house came with these shades that were kind of pulled down. I know Pake shade. So you can see through it. And just as I was falling asleep, I saw someone crawl in front of my window. Because it was a roof right outside of his two stories. I don't know if it was a man or a woman. I have no idea. I think we can assume it's a man or a woman escaping. It was on his knees and he was just sitting there like perfectly outlined in my window's whole body. And I couldn't scream. Yeah. And he had his hands on the window and he was trying to see if it would open and then eventually he just went past the window and as soon as he was out of sight, I got my voice back and I started screaming. Did mom's boyfriend run to the scene? I don't know if he was there that night. That's kind of the end of that memory. I remember my mom coming in or something. But it was terrifying. And then we moved out to Lithia Springs when I was five years old. We found an 1850s farmhouse and it was two bedrooms. You had to walk through my room to get to the bathroom. And it was fucking cold. And the winter was like, well, I'm going to go to sleep with this glass of water on edge of my bed. And I know I'm going to wake up and it's going to be frozen. There's no more water in my glass. Get me out of here. Were there stepdads in the mechs? I did not have a stepdad. My mom never got remarried. But she had some boyfriends and I loved all of them. You did. Some of them were a little hard and a couple of them were younger than they probably should have been. Yeah. Oh my god. We need a picture of your mom. My mom so fucking cool. Yeah, who do you get your swagger from? Because I have been lucky enough to see photos of your dad and Monica. I can't wait to describe his father to you. But you showed some pictures on Seth Meyers of them. He is a one of a fucking kind. He texted me a photo yesterday. Dad, if you ever see this, I can't believe he made this fucking coffee mug. He was a picture of me and these glasses are part of the campaign. And he made himself a coffee mug. He's a narcissist, my dad. Yeah, clinical. Sure. He knows it. Don't you dad? But he literally said me this thing when he said congratulations. He loves me when I love him. It has this logo. Fucking all over the bottom of it. And then at the top that's facing out where people would be seeing it is a picture of me and these glasses and underneath it and big letters. There is no him without me. No, no. That's what it says on the mug on the fucking mug. Yes, perfect. I could almost guess that caption. My father and I wonder if you have this. As I got famous, he loved. Don't people. I wanted to take in how proud he was of me and he was deeply proud of me. But I couldn't trust that it wasn't maybe more about him getting attention. Of course, man. You're an extension of him. Which makes more sense now that I have kids. You're right. There is a very tiny line between you. But can you relate to that? I had a lifetime of that. We're not the only people that has had this kind of experience. My father was married six times, but one was a knoll. Okay. Well, we'll still count it. I really count that. Yeah. A shot gun, kind of a knoll, the running joke kind of in my house. It was inevitably everybody has a bumper sticker that says, "Honk, if you've ever been married to Sandy Gogger." No. Fucking new hasn't he married. But my mom never remarried. She had some wonderful men come through and then we had a cast of characters in my life. It was kind of this waystation for people. My mom was the most sane of her three sisters who were and are insane clinically. But it was really colorful and I was raised kind of a real steel magnolia. You get to meet characters, it sounds like. Oh, I get to meet them. They fucking lived with us. Yeah. They raised you. Upon reflection, though, are you grateful for it? Oh, I'm so grateful for it. Whenever you would meet someone, even someone who was relatively authentic, even someone who was just a farmer across the street, Kermit, and his wife, everyone in my life was eccentric. I mean, except for the Hearst family, my neighbors, Holly and David were my best friends and Ken and Carol were like my mom and dad. They actually fed me regularly. They had a bed that I could always sleep in and they would actually take me to practice, but they would also pick me up. They were dependable. Yeah. They were about as good as Americans can get. They were just wonderful people. But God, damn, I'm glad that I wasn't raised totally by them. I just absolutely love lunatics. Yes. I love crazy people, but just enough crazy. I don't see enough people seeking out those conversations or taking the time with people like that. Am I wrong about that? You think people dismiss. I think that eccentricity, if the conversation can't be had in about three minutes, if you're only checking one of the 10 boxes required for me to have a conversation, I'm not fucking having it, right? I mean, because people are busy and there's a phone. Do you think that's true or not? Gosh, I think it's complicated because I also think because of social media, people also lean deeply into their eccentricity almost in an inauthentic way. It's performative. So authenticity has gotten very complicated and public and confusing. And you are interfacing with people that have either real or faux eccentricities. And you are engaging with them in that platform. I didn't even think about that. Well, also, you can get that it's scratch, which is you can go watch someone that's batshit nuts on Instagram, whereas when we were kids, Chris don't hear me say this all the time, it's like, right, an airport. And I just lock on to somebody. And I'll say out loud, gotta find out what this guy's up to. And I'll go chat. People catch my eye all the time. And I'm like dying to find out what's cracking. What's going on outside of this airport? What kind of kid were you in school? I was alone a lot as a kid, single mom, babysitters, houses. I felt like I spent most of my life waiting to be picked up at times. I felt like an inconvenience, even though that wasn't their intention. I remember seeing the bridges of Madison County and Burbank, whenever that movie came out in the early 90s and then calling my mom from a pay phone in the lobby, walking out, apologizing for being bored. But not in just like, I'm so sorry. I held you back from doing some of these things and she still had a fucking great life. Sounds like it says I'm younger suitors. Yeah, but she was like, no, son, you are the gift. You are it. But at the time, I didn't feel that. In school, I think I was popular, kind. I think I could charm people. I always felt different. I always knew that I'm not going to be here forever. I had a lot of friends. My senior superlative, even though I didn't win it, but I was the first runner up for most friendliest. I thought it would be best dress. They took that out that year because poor kids, they don't have the same opportunity. I'm pulled. But I figured it out. I figured it out. I got a job. I worked as a rich $1 scarf with this $3 shirt. You see this shit? I bought this shit. But I was a great student. Oh, no getting. I had no structure in my life. I don't think I slept in the same bed for more than seven days straight until I was like 15. So I had to generate my own structure. They helped me. It served me my entire life because, okay, well, I got a work harder than everybody in this room. Well, it makes you a self starter because no one's going to start it for you. That's right. I remember writing a poem that was the class assignment. And so I picked it about divorce. You know, I came to turn it in and she gave it back to me. It was like an F. Whoa, I said, I'm so sorry. I think this is pretty good. And she said, it's great, but you didn't write it. And I said, what? Oh, so it's the ultimate. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yes, I did. I'm like, that guy's from my heart. Yeah, I just showed you my heart. Yeah, call me a fraud. And then my mom kind of came school said, no, no, no, it was him. It all worked out. I've never wanted to read a poem in my entire life until right now. You know it. You know, my heart. No, I remember a couple wraps. I wrote. We'll get to that later. Okay. So you went to Southern Georgia University for a year and a half. Georgia Southern. Did you go to I went to Georgia. You went to UGA. Good. I was a great student. You from Georgia. I know I am. I ran. We got in a big fight about it because I went to the Texas game with DAX in Austin. Why are you a big Texas? No, he's not. I'm a big Austin fan. Yeah, I'm a big Austin fan. That's a great city. Well, they were playing Georgia and I refused. And we're the guests. We were guests of some Texas. Oh, Makana. Hey, oh, yeah. We're religion. We got to hook them. No, we don't. You wear like a Georgia hat. I wore a bulldog shirt and a red sweater. Were you on the field? No, we were in the box, but surrounded by a bunch of orange. And I was like, absolutely not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're so mad that I wanted the long orange swing. It put our friendship to the test. It really did. We barely navigated that one. We don't have to talk about it now, but I want to know the history of this friendship. Oh, yeah. It's a odd pairing. We're best friends. We fight nonstop. We think about the world so differently so often. It works. Big time circling back a little bit. I do think we are very volatile. And I think that's somewhat of a result of his upbringing and potentially mine. And we were talking about chaos and relationships. Do you seek that out? I think we subconsciously seek it out. You mean conflict with each other? Are you thinking in your own lives? Like if I'm being honest, I think that's part of the draw. There's something always that could blow up. Yeah, that's right. And part of the attraction to this. I think so. Yeah, I crave novelty. I crave a challenge. I crave being engaged. And because she's so smart and has such a strong point of view, and it's so often different from mine, it's very right for very engaged, very heartfelt debate. And we love each other. So we would like to have the same opinion. So the stakes are high. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now that makes for a great show. It's been going on for seven years. We've gone on a long time. We have to really navigate it quite often. But I think that's the best kind of relationship. I agree with you. I could never be with a fan. I have friends. I know people who are very successful and then they get a very beautiful person who's just so long for the ride and they're a fan. I would be so bored out of my mind. My wife is hard as a motherfucker. Yeah, super smart, super talented, very driven, very ambitious, going to get her way. I need that. I have that in my life. My wife is more often than not the smartest person in any room that I walk in for sure. She's a fucking intellectual baller. She understands the world in a very nuanced, complex way and is able to walk with kings. Yeah, and you got to have your shit straight before you enter into a fray with her. Like she makes you, I'm presuming the very best version of yourself. Well, I mean, I don't know the worst version too. And the thing that I say often is I'm zen 99% of the time. And she says, what's the 1% where you should be fucking zen? Man, you know, it's the 1% when you're challenged to that place. And that's your lesson. I said, or maybe it's fucking not my left. But that's kind of that thing. I mean, I think I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool to, hey man, fuck you. I'm not cool. That level of volatility is present in my work. And maybe you feel that way in your work. And that is the same with my wife and all of my friends. I look for that in other people. I need 10% crazy in the mix. Absolutely. In Monica's 26% crazy. And I'm 35% crazy. Well, I would go up a little bit on that. It's Christian crazy. That's a great question. Lesson less. Lesson less and less. Yeah. Both of us, by the way, have gotten way milder. It can exist so much easier. It's 17 years. You're 19 years. 20. We've married for that long. But we met on a blind date. 20 years ago, January 11th. The volume comes down on a lot of stuff. It hasn't. We've gone through a lot. And like every relationship ups and downs and peaks and valleys. But there's this thing that has eluded us for so long. And we see it coming. It's like, oh, I fucking know exactly how this is going to go down. And I don't want to, okay, let's step off this train right now. There's an off ramp right here, man. You could just turn around. Oh, she's not letting you leave. Oh, you're not letting her. Oh, oh, hey, you know what? Now we're doing fucking I'm out, man. The little switch out of here. And a little burst of euphoria comes. We go, oh, I'm going to burn the house down. Yeah, that's right. And it's a little bit intoxicated. It isn't intoxicating. But you know who in my family doesn't have any of that is our child. He is so calm and so wise and so measured and extremely passionate. A deep, deep, deep thinker. What could be more fun? Yeah. Okay, here's the limb I wanted to go out on. Okay, let's go out. But I'm just curious, given the similar background. Is it hard for you when someone's in a bad mood? Like my things with my wife are generally, and I have this with Monica too. I have this with everyone in my life. If someone's in a really bad mood, I have this unreasonable desire to fix that for them and to regulate them. And if I can't do it, I'm very uncomfortable. Right. Because you spend a lifetime doing that regulating kind of other people. Well, that was my guess. I'm wondering at single mom. It's like, normally dad would be in charge of that. If mom's got an emotional issue, she never fit that box. Right. She never fit that stereotype. It was smoked a lot of weed, had a really good time. Very passionate woman. Love to have sex. Mine too. My mom's an admitted love addict. Yeah, absolutely. And he started studying Paramahansa Yogananda and Joel Goldsmith and the Yarancha and the IAM and went on this spiritual journey started when I was about 10 or 11 years old and had me reading all of those texts so much so that I just kind of missed out on the classics because I felt like it was a waste of time. If you weren't doing something that was expanding kind of your consciousness, then why would you do it? I didn't realize until I was in a car with some friends that I had made in LA when I first moved out here. Coming back from San Diego and hearing these people talk about Hemingway and Somerset Mom and Faulkner. They had the opportunity to be in school. They had a college education and hearing them cross-reference these authors and how it was applicable to cinema or a song that they were listening to. And I just was in the back seat. I wasn't saying anything. I was just listening to all of this and I just thought I want that kind of in my life to circle back to what you said. I had to please a lot of people. I had to please my father. I wasn't around him that much but when I was, I desperately had to do that. That's not our problem. Early in my life, my problem was profound insecurity based on poverty and not having those things. To the point where in high school or middle school girlfriends parents were coming to pick me up and I would give them an address that wasn't my address and right before they were supposed to get me. I said, okay, Mom, I got to go. My mom had no structure, no boundaries. No boundaries whatsoever. My mom was like, I trust you. And so I would just slip out of the house and I would go to Ken and Carol's house with the nicer home and just hide in the ditch or out by their bushes and I would see the headlights kind of pulling and I would just run out and drive away. I was like, okay, and then the lights would come on and this is how you're as I, oh, they're fine. Bye, Mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Poverty's humiliating when you're young like that. You just don't fit in. We never filled up our gas tank ever. I never remember my mom or an aunt or one of these crazy people I was with. No one had the money to put more than like three to five bucks in your gas tank. And so I had a lot of that. It's like a chip on your shoulder, but it's not. And then you allow for judging until he gets to a certain point and then you react to that judging. It's like, well, wait a minute. I'm just as good as you and a lot of that shit early on, especially in relationships. I was left a lot like a lot of people abandoning issues and just thinking everyone leaves, everyone's going to leave. So please don't love me or love me and please don't let me go. Yeah, I think that's a journey for a lot of people in my own journey and my own spiritual walk, which is a part of this whole experience of the white lotus falling in love with yourself. God, damn it. If you can get to that point where you're okay with you, even though once you find it, it will very quickly disappear. Yeah, it's transient. Absolutely. And once you have that realization and once you have a degree of self love, at least this is what my experience was, that also came with real boundaries. I've gotten better about this is no man's land right now. We're okay, but this is not okay with me. And I'm not poor anymore, but I don't think that ever fully leaves you. I'd wrestle a lot with I hated rich people. If there were a bad guy in the world, it was rich people because I felt less than around them. I didn't like how I felt. It's not at their fault. I now know that, but I have this chip on my shoulder. And then trying to come to terms with the reality of, oh, I'm one of those people, that's like a little discombobliating. And the shame around that. Yeah, yeah, you feel survivor's guilt. It's complicated. The thing that I had and something you kind of brought up earlier and experiencing it in the back of this car came out from San Diego. My envy wasn't around the acquisition of things, even though I just wish we had some fucking heat. These are just bare metal. The water would stay liquid. Yes, I wish we had some yogurt. Wish I didn't have to cut off half of this block of cheese to get to the good cheese. That's exactly right. But it was time to think I was jealous and envious of these people went to college and they were fucking in college. Even though they worked or whatever, but they had an opportunity to just sit and learn or read and then go talk about things that they had just learned. I never had this space to do that. I would have been good at it. I left school after a year and a half. We do forget. We take for granted that going to school and being able to be there and think critically is a privilege. It is a privilege. We just do it. We think we have to do it. We go. We try to get through it and it should be rethought of. I just like a daily reminder of this is a privilege. It's not a right. And what do you do with the time that you have at the microphone? What is it that you want to say? Well, I didn't have that in college. I have been able to, even without money, give myself those opportunities through travel and being alone, giving myself permission to be on the road for a very long period of time, understanding culture. I've talked about this in other interviews. So this isn't revelatory. But in addition to that, I feel that way about work. I feel that way about the time I am now afforded to give myself to live in my imagination and preparation to start a job and to stay in that world over the course of telling that story. So I feel like I have that now. That's my education. That's time to ask those existential questions or listen to that music. This person would listen to or watch those movies that are applicable to this. It just indulge your imagination. Yeah, that's right. We have time in the space, the fucking indulge this part of your brain. Yeah, it's so special. And I don't take that for granted. I'm with you. Yeah. I'm never interested in why someone wanted to become an actor, but with you, I am. How do we go from that tiny town in a year and a half in college? When do you go, oh, I'm going to be a performer? I feel like I was always a performer. I was raised around some very performative people, interesting, funny people. They were great storytellers. Yeah, if you're going to take up time at the dinner table, a better fucking lamb. Yeah. And even if you couldn't, because there were five stories going at once, do you know what I mean? But more often not, people would pass the baton in my household. And there wasn't a lot of talking over each other. It was depending on the level of an ebriation, how fucking short or how long the story is. He was very eccentric people. When it was my turn to talk, you know, it was like little wall. It was the great love of the women and my family. I knew that that again was a privilege and not a right to be given in the microphone around this group of really great storytellers. And I would tell my story, tell an asshole. I think that was always kind of a part of it, but I really kind of stumbled into it. Well, when you moved to LA, did you move here specifically to try to act? I did. I wanted a great experience. I got an American Express in college, my freshman year, as soon as I got there. God, damn, I got mail. Who knows? I'm going to school here. I thought you guys know it's happening. Dragons. One guy got a mail box. And it was four or five pieces of mail. The first thing that I opened was an offer to join American Express. And with this offer in 1989 were two round-trip tickets for $99 each of the Mississippi or $199 west of the Mississippi. Yeah, wow. Plain tickets were like $1,000 from Atlanta to fucking Los Angeles in 1989. I mean, they were not cheap. And I just saw it and I thought this experience is over when I do my year in the school. I'm never going to spend a dollar on this card. I'll just have it. And then I'm going to use both of these vouchers. And it's exactly what I did a year later. And who went with you? Nobody. I went on my own. Because you had two vouchers. Yeah, oh, because I had two. No, no, no. I used both of them. My dad came with me when I drove across country because he wanted to get his eyes on the big city. I wish you could have seen this photo. His dad is adorned head to toe in black leather turquoise on every single finger. He has photos of himself. People do ask him for photos everywhere he goes. He's a very interesting person. He's visiting Walton in New York and people are asking for photos. And he's, oh, well, I have one sign. He has signed photos of himself. He has signed photos of Walton that he has signed. Oh my, you need to make a mug with his picture of that. And it needs to say there's no this without me. That's also true. And that's the end of the interview. Yeah. Yeah. The ride really, so I'm going to blow through a couple. So I want to get to three things. Okay. The shield is the first from the outside. Seems like you're now in the big leagues. You have a steady paycheck. You're one of the season regulars. Is that the big? Yeah, I think so. I moved to when I was 19. I had $3 in my pocket. And I lived the way that I lived and worked how I worked. And then what gave me permission not to feel like I needed to work anymore, even though I did for a little while after which was the Apostle with Robert DeVole. And that was the wow. Okay. That's my hero. And so that was really, even though I was working, I think I made $21,000 over three months for the next karate kid. For me, that was a lot of money. Well, clearly, yeah, from 19 to 30, you are when you get on the shield. 29. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You make it work. You're on Beverly Hills 90210. Yeah. I did a fair amount of films, but then I thought like Shanghai noon was going to be the thing. Oh, yeah, yeah. I had a pretty big role in born identity that ultimately they decided to go with Gabriel Mann instead. And they just offered me another thing. People didn't know what the fuck to do with me. No one was paying attention. And I had some extraordinary experiences on location over that first 10 years. And then the shield happened. Yeah, when I was 29, and nobody knew that it was going to be what it became. 86 episodes or something. Yeah, 86. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think this is so fascinating. You had audition for Eastbound and down, and you didn't get it. No. And the feedback was David Gordon Green, who was a friend of mine from the independent film circuit. I just called and said, you know, Danny absolutely loves you, but just it might be a little too dangerous for what we're doing. It's a little too chaotic. Not even chaotic. It's just a little scary. I said to Danny, look, man, I think you need somebody to go toe to toe with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we have some friends in common. Leslie Bibb actually had New Year's Eve party and Danny and David were there. And I was there. She's one of my best friends with Sam. Then that was kind of the beginning of conversation. I remember watching an interview with Todd Phillips. And I thought he said the coolest thing. He said, you know, for me, comedy that is good has to be very dangerous. Oh, it's not comedy to me. And if you're like, look at his work, you're like, oh, yeah, it's kind of high stakes. Everything's a little scary. You look at the hangover. Any of these, they go wild when they're going to jump a van. They're going to jump a fucking van. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're real stakes. So then you get to come in and do vice principles. They offered it. I was doing the hateful eight. We were in Colorado. And I read it and he talked about it at this party. And I read it and thought, okay, this I know what to do with. And so I just kind of did that. And it was three lines into it where I think he was like, okay, you're outrageously good in that. I couldn't believe the story of hateful eight. And if you would just indulge me in Monica, I think the audition for hateful eight is one of my favorite audition stories I've heard. If it's the story that I think you're talking about, that was for Django. Oh, I'm sorry, yes, but you get hateful eight. Which led to the hateful eight. I'm sorry. Yeah. No, no, no, no, that's easy. I can't believe you know what you fucking know. Honestly, but it starts with the call to Rodriguez. I get this script like everybody else in town. And I read it on the plane to New York and stay with a friend. And it's one of the best things I've ever read in my life. It's only made nine, you know, so it's the repeat cast. It's the golden ticket. It's a very small group of people. I just feel that way about Mike White and the White Lotus. There are a number of filmmakers that have that stable of actors. And if you can kind of get in that Christopher Guest, I mean, unbelievable, but Quentin is probably by far the most in my book. But I read it and it's like, I don't have to get this. I just want to fucking read these words in front of this man. And so I called Robert Rodriguez, who's a friend of mine. And they're obviously really good friends. And I think, man, I've never asked you for anything. Could you please text Quentin for me and just say that I have this guy, like to read 10 minutes later, he texted back the text from Quentin, which was, I love Goggins. I love his work. You know, and it's like, fuck, okay, well, then that's it. Did you put it out of frame it? Unbelievable. That's enough. It's more than I wanted. Yeah, we could ever expect. Yeah. Yeah. It's always nice to live your life as if you should be surprised if anyone has seen any fucking thing. Sure. But to be seen by a hero just feels really crazy. And then liked. Yeah. And then it just happened to coincide with a really good friend of Quentin's was one of my wife's dear friends. And she called and she said, I just read this script and you got to be in this movie, man, you're in. You're one of these guys. Yeah. And she said, let's have a dinner with Quentin. But I'm the guy that's like, no, no, no, I don't want to do that. I don't ask you any one of you. I'm not the first guy out of his dinner. Talk about everything, but the script until the very end. And I said, I think this is what you're saying and how I felt, but thousand people have probably said, I said, well, I want you to come in and just pick a few rolls. And so I did started kind of reading them. And there it was. And he was like, that's fucking great, man. I'll be speaking to you. And I said, well, I'm not leaving. I didn't come here just to read these three rolls. I don't give a fuck if I get this job, man. I just want to read your words in front of you. I want to read all of these rolls. Wow. I want to read Leo. I want to read Sam. I just heard Russell. It's like, I just want to read this shit. He's like, really? And he said, okay, let's do it. And then he read everyone else in the scenes. And you did the whole movie, basically. We worked for like an hour hour and a half. We did a lot. How fucking big, seminal scenes just the unadulterated enthusiasm and love for what he puts out in the world and his words and at the end of it, it was like, fucking really good to see you, man. Can't wait for the next time this across my mind on my deathbed. Thank you. Thank you, man. How cool. And then yeah, you get the call a couple of months went by. It's like, okay, buddy, I'm down to New Orleans and play with us. What if you're like, I can't? I don't want it. I just came to just do that one thing. I don't really want to be in the movie. Yeah. But thanks. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I imagine you deal with this. The characters are so fucking different. I may have seen vice principals, but if I don't follow show business, I don't realize that's the guy from hateful eight, they're so different. And if I fell in love with Uncle Baby Billy, I'm not putting that together with the shield. It's almost probably a bit of a Achilles, which is I think you deserve to be a star in the world, but I think the work is so unique and different. I don't know people are connecting the dots because now I'm a hyper fan and I didn't even think, all right, I got to go and watch. I went and watch justified. I had never seen it, but I'm like, I'll go out for Goggins. Goddamn, he's great in that again, but I watch hateful eight couple months ago in a sea of the most talented people. That's the performance in the movie. It's incredible. I can't believe you went from a smaller role in Django and then got called to the big leagues and did what you did in that movie is fucking nuts, dude. Thank you, man. Oh my God, it's so impressive. I'm so happy for you that you got to go into Tarantino's world and have him trust you with that much. And then the fucking score touched now and after touched now, look, if you feel this way, a lot of people in this business and outside of this business, listen to your podcast. And I think for so many of us kind of coming up, I mean, we're from a different generation, but the barriers to entry, the gatekeepers to this experience. It's like every day, you're not even trying to fucking get to base camp one on Mount Everest. You're just trying to get up that little fucking hell that you're gonna fall that. Yeah, that's right. You're just ready to get a flight to there for Nepal. At that point, it's as far as you could have gone if you feel like I do about Tarantino. It's exactly how I feel. But whenever you see someone that's been around for a long time, like Rockwell or Cruda, I mean, Garrett Dillon, all of these fucking people that have been around for a really long time. And we've been around for a long time and you just see consistently good work over a long time. And it's like, oh, wow, I mean, Pedro, Pascal's been doing great work for such a long time. And it's like, wow, okay, there's one for the good guys. There is no limit on their staying power. They're inoculated by Tarantino. And Wisdom and choices. And so the guys, I'm also a fan of, I won't name any names, but we know them. The people that if you were an envious person, which I'm really not except out of the people's careers, I really don't look into other lanes. But the people in my 20s for a moment was like, fuck, I wish I could, you know, but I wouldn't trade my walk for those three years. And I think you probably wouldn't either. I've been walking the road that I've been walking for a very long time. I would argue it's preferred. I agree. When you're young, if you come out and you drop right into the world series, it's hard to appreciate. It's hard to conceptualize it's hard to integrate. It's hard to say. It's hard to say. And to kind of just keep walking in the back door. And then you leave and you're like, who was that guy? That was that, you know, it's so preferred for your life story, your own narrative self. It's such the way to do it. Yeah, I think so. You don't remember this, but very first time I met you, it was nothing more of like a, hey, but it was really just me across the room, silently thinking like, fuck you, fuck this fucking guy. Why? What is the story? Because it was for an audition and it was just the two of us in this room. And I walked in and I looked at you and you were sitting behind this desk and it was like a room with chairs. They had us kind of waiting it. Maybe it was a second callback or something. I don't know. But I walked in and was like, oh, this fucking guy. I just felt like it ain't my day. I don't know this. Well, it was so scared. No employee of the month. Oh, my God. With Dane. Dane. And Dane came in. I don't know if you knew him. I don't remember, but there was some interaction that it was just like this easy. Oh, these guys are possible to believe the story. I don't remember where it was, but I remember the room and I remember where you were sitting. No way. Yeah. And then seeing the movie kind of when it came out was like, you know what? Yeah. For sure. That's a ego boost for you. Should be. Yeah. And yeah, if I were you, I would hate me. No. Yes. I mean, what this motherfucker was on. I just felt like now. It was just like, you kind of walk in the morning. It's like, well, you know what? I'm still going to have fun. And I do want to see the version of the movie with you. I don't know. Oh, my God. That's crazy. That just blew my mind. Okay. Last thing before white Lotus is, of course, righteous gemstones. Uncle Baby Billy. Yeah. Again, I see all your shit out of order. So I first saw righteous. And I was like, who the fuck is this guy putting Uncle Baby Billy in? Because they're just obsessed with the show. I'm writing emails to Danny, who I barely know, but I have to tell him after every episode. A lot. The pilot of that. I'm like, did Scorsese fucking direct this pilot? This is a comedy. Look at these shots. Yeah. We fall so in love with you. Or he was in vice principles we learned. We go back. I watch vice principles just because I'm now on my Walton Goggins train. And I'm like, oh, my God, and he's this and this. I don't really have a question. We just finished the fourth season. It's really good. I can't tell you anything that it's about, but the first episode of season four. And I'm going to go on record is saying this as a piece of writing, if I had read that in the Atlantic, I think the mother fuck will be nominated for a Pulitzer. Wow. You know, really what he's saying. At this stage of his exploration in that world and everybody obviously has a great arc and a great story, but baby Billy will have the summer 2025 fucking hit. I'm going to tell you right now, whatever you're wearing right now, come June or whatever. When you were bathing suit, you will be singing this fucking song. I promise. Oh, my God. It's good, y'all. I can't wait. And it says a lot about a lot. It's cool. I guess my one question about vice principals and righteous is if you had to guess at a percentage, what percentage is you guys riffing and what percentage is on the page? It feels impossibly organic. 98% is on the page. No shit. That's so brilliant. That's some writing. Edie Patterson. Yeah. Yeah. Adam can fucking do that. Michaela Watkins can do that cordry. That's not my thing, but I understand what the story is and I understand, okay, these are five or six tangents that I can go down turn yourself over to that and see kind of where that takes you. But he realized that about me very early on that it's the words on the page that is liberating to me. And then we carried that into righteous gemstones. I think I'll work with him for the rest of my life. If there was a career to MV of yours because you're in the Tarantino stuff, but I would say of the television shows, my favorite comedy is definitely righteous gemstones. I think my favorite big, huge action thing is Fallout. I love that show. Thanks man. And then my very favorite, both of ours, kind of social commentary, character, deliciousness is white lotus. You're in the three shows that are my favorite. The two previous seasons have been so good. I think we all had so much anxiety when season two came around because I'm like, how on earth, that hotel manager in season one, like, who's going to pick up that slack? And then they do. His social commentary on what he's able to tackle, which I feel like you're not allowed to. And he does perfectly. Yeah. Just the notion last season you have these two couples and these two cheat their shitty. And this is the good one. And then as you're playing with it, you're like, well, I'm not sure which one I'd rather be a part of. That's right. Oh, here's the perfect guy says all the right things. Why isn't she horny for him? We got to deal with that. That's a real thing. It's so brave and awesome. It is. And no one writes an existential crisis the way that he does. Yeah. Well, it gives him permission. I think to parody these people and to make them real simultaneously because these situations do happen to people outside of this very specific economic kind of section of society that he explores. Yeah. This is his words, not mine. If first season was about money, the second season was about sex. This season is about religion. It was everything that I had hoped it would be. And there are so many things that happen over the course of this experience that I'm not at liberty to really talk about. It's a project to promote action. Yeah. It is with a lot of projects. But that one in particular, I think they do actually kill you. There's a body floating somewhere. But I felt like I had my own apocalypse now that I was willered and about going upstream to meet Captain Kurtz, which was also me because of the real life or the story because of the story that I was telling. Is it helped that you're in Thailand for six months, living at the actual hotel you're working at? Yeah. Living at the hotel. And sometimes the hotel was completely bought out. So it was just us. And then other times, you know, they weren't able to do that. Yeah. So you're literally checking in as an actor next to guests. Internationally there on vacation. You're like peeking at the hotel pool going like, oh, that's that character. Yeah. So weird fourth wall being broken. Yeah. But I've seen two episodes. And it's really fucking good. Oh, I can't wait. And it's similar. But it's different. And I can say that my journey in this world, it's something that hasn't been seen or explored by Mike and other seasons. But everyone just kills it. Is it hard being there though for six months? Oh, fuck yeah. Man, I mean, I haven't been home 11 days this year in success. It becomes harder. You know, and that's the thing. I don't think people realize because you're having to turn down now really great opportunities. Well, I mean, you're just away from home for a long time. It's lonely. Yeah. I don't think people anticipate that. It's like, oh my god, I'm getting all these opportunities. And it's incredible. But at the end of the day, you go back to a house or your hotel room and you're alone, which I'm good at. And if I'm having a problem with it, I know other people are. Everyone went through their own crisis over the course of this experience, which is maybe helpful for the project. It's a story that can induce that experience. Exactly. Certainly for me, the way that I approached this way of storytelling, it was a fucking incredible experience. It had everything in it, souped nuts. And I can't wait for you to see it. And I can't wait to hear what you think about when you do see it. Oh, yeah, I'm so excited. Maybe we'll come back on at the end of this thing. When you get the call to join that cast, it was interesting because they were doing season two and I didn't know Mike, but we had friends in common, like we all did at this point. And I remember my agent saying, well, you should write a letter to Mike. It's like, no, man, I ain't that guy. I ain't doing that. They didn't tell me that conversations were even happening or that it was getting close. And then it was out here. We were doing early press for fallout. And I went out to dinner with my agent, so I hadn't seen it in a while. And they said, listen, congratulations. I said, for what? And then they said, Mike wants you to do white Lotus season three. And I just started fucking Paul and I started shaking at the table really because I felt like it's a world I could help him tell his story. Do you know what I mean? I suppose I would have felt that way. If any other show or movie you're excited about or filmmaker, but it's when you understand, like Quentin, I felt like I know how to tell his story. I felt that way with Mike and a few of the filmmakers that I've gotten an opportunity to work with over the course of my career. This is one of them that walked outside and called my wife. That's amazing. My last question to land the plane is I also follow you on Instagram. I also know Cordray goes with you to like Grease or Italy. You guys will do a proper summer in another country. It seems like you're putting as much effort into your actual life being as artistic as your work life. Absolutely. And I'd imagine some people might think that just happens, but I imagine you got to actually approach your life just like you do a role. Wow. Never had anyone say that. Yeah, I think that it's with intention. And so this happens to be a very long stretch. We sold our home in Los Angeles and we moved across the country and we bid off maybe a little bit more than we could chew. And that's like, okay, I got to go to work, even though I've never really done anything just for the money or that I'm not proud of or that I didn't want to do, but I got offered a movie right when the strikes were being talked about. I have this trip planned and they said, we'll offer you this amount of money. And I said, thank you, but no, thank you. And they said, okay, what about this amount of money? You said, what would it take? I said, there is no amount of money. I'm sorry. And your listeners or other actors may say, fuck that guy. You know what? I hadn't seen my kid in a long time. And I had seen my friends and that fucking time with my kid, it means more to me than anything. We're going to do that again this year with intention, whatever you can afford. My mom did it in Panama City Beach, Florida in a fucking tent. That is time. And it's far too precious at the stage of the game. And it is something that you can never get back. And I have shame and remorse and regret about the time that I have been away. Like anyone does with their children. It's with intention and we're going to live the fuck out of life. Strap yourself in. Strap yourself in. God, let's all strap in. Let's strap in. Thank you so much. Go Daddy Arrow. Oh, right. You go to Super Bowl commercial. Let's just have that. Yeah, this is going to come out after. Yeah, that's exactly right. Go back and watch it on YouTube. Yeah, I get goggles. Yeah, super bowl commercial. Well deserved. Go Daddy Arrow. And hopefully people will be watching the commercial. God, you look great. You look so fucking cheap. You know what? If you can imagine every day, just feeling like, I pray ski. I love it. I'm going to wear them out. What I'm thinking, Monica's are long-standing debate about whether or not I could fly an airplane if the pilot went down. Sure. You with those goggles on. You think I could do. I'm not sure who should be flying the airplane. You were me. That is quite the compliment. You look like a professional in any field with those guys. Hey, you know what an honor, man. Well, I'm so glad to find you. We've been trying to get you in for years. Well, thank you. You're so generous of yourselves and so giving of your time and such great listeners. And thank you. What a pleasure, man. Just loving you from afar. So the fact that we're sitting together is such a blast for me. I adore you, Walton. This has been my blast. Thank you. What a joy, what a joy. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. Is it our care expert? But he makes mistakes all the time. They got my occurs here. He's got a little half the facts. Oh, look at our trophy. Look at our trophy. That's a cool trophy. Very on space age. Yeah. It's meant to be hung. Okay. It has this at the bottom. I guess it looks like a quotation above someone's head. It does. I'm holding up a square armchair expert with the expert spotify 500 million streams plaque. We were awarded gold status. I was called gold status. I need to start this fact check by saying my most deepest thank you. I've never been more grateful. Then last night, I was asked to be one of Bill's 10 or 11 stops on his book tour. Yeah, awesome. And it was at a live event. The car. I know some beautiful theater. Where? In San Francisco. Oh, nice. Sorry if you already said that. No, I don't think I did. Okay. For the listener. I didn't say that. Okay. It's not our show, right? Yeah. It's not handheld mics. I can't go out and I had a time and warm everything up and then bring Bill out. There's like a whole thing. You know, it's their show. Right. And there'll be a video and another woman introduced us for a while. And then we sit down. I mean, the wrong side suffice to say it just wasn't like one of our shows. Sure. So I guess that gave me about a ton. I'm not going to exaggerate. Maybe like 20% nerves. Of course. It's different. And it's like, I don't know if it's all people there to see Bill Gates. And they're learning who I am and they don't understand. I'm going to have a sense of humor. Whatever. All this to say. As soon as we sat down, I said, are there any arm cherries here in money? I loved it. Whole place was arm cherries. And I immediately felt so comfortable and confident and relaxed. That's awesome. And I was so grateful. I could have believed how grateful I was. I was like, fucking arm cherries show up. They really do show. Yeah. And you know, I had my whole family. Yes. Your original family. The OF. Yeah. Your sister, your brother and your mom. That's right. The original crew. The original four. The fab four. Was that lovely? It was lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they got to meet Bill for a while. Yeah. And my brother has been obsessed with Bill since he was a kid. Really? Oh, yes. My brother was very into computers. I didn't know that. Yes. Oh, how special. Obsessed with Bill Gates' whole life. Okay. Even when I was talking to him before the event, I was saying like, oh my god, you got to read the book. It's so funny. There are so many funny stories in this book about him being 13 and showing up places with a briefcase and business suits on and making products. And the whole thing is so it sounds like a cartoon. Yeah. And he was like, oh, yeah, my favorite thing is that his mom said, what are you doing in here in his bedroom when he said, uh, I'm thinking you should try it. Oh, my god. And my brother just knew all this stuff I had just learned in the book. He somehow had already known. Of course. Anywho they got to chat for quite a long time. It was a very special experience for my brother. That's great. And yeah, it was sweet. And then yesterday, we gave it to San Francisco straight up the Heine. We in four hours, we saw that whole city. Nice. We saw Alcatraz. We saw the Golden Gate Bridge, the Bay Bridge. We went through Chinatown. We went through North Beach. We went to Lombard Street. We got on the trolley and rode the full loop of the trolley hanging out the side Monica. So is that really true with your original family? Because I don't think you do that with your family. No, my brother had never been to San Francisco shockingly. But so, yeah, seeing Alcatraz on all this stuff, the Golden Gate Bridge is all very exciting. Trolley, Ryseroni, the San Francisco tree. Full house, ding ding. Full house. Lombard Street. Do you know Lombard Street? I don't know. It's the one that's really twisty that goes down the extreme steep. And when my brother and I were children, there was a show called you can't do this on television. No, that's Nickelodeon. It was called that's incredible. Doug Democus, the wheelie king, rode a dirt bike, a wheelie down Lombard Street. Oh, never putting it down, rode over cars on a wheel. Oh, that sounds bad. It was very memorable. Seminole moment on television for us. And so to be on Lombard, where our hero Doug Democus had done that sweet wheelie. And then some arm cherries were in a 1960s VW micro bus coming down Lombard Street and started howling out the window. Sometimes people shout out the window and their arm cherries happen. And I just want to say to anyone who does that to me, it just happened a few times. Don't think I'm a bitch. If you get shook a little bit. Yeah, or my first reaction is like really twist. I rollie not I really like don't don't hurt me. Yeah, don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. Don't hurt me, please. I'm scared and angry. That's just my reaction. But then you let it you let it in. But then they say like I'm listening or I listen or I'm going to whatever. And then I stop listening. I don't like it anymore. What happened? Yeah, I should have never done video. Yeah, recently a guy did that. He honked. And then he I looked over with a mean face. And then he pointed. He he was listening at that moment. He like raised the ball. Yeah, that was exciting. But I ask you when you just when you just pointed it, it looked like he was pointing at his crotch, but it was obvious. It was the I know he won it, but I'm saying it was clear that he was pointing to a stereo. Yeah. Okay. Because when you just did it, it wasn't clear. Okay. All right. Okay. Anyway, so go on. Come by. Continue in Lumbar and Street. Chinatown. Little Italy. Look how good it has that fucking trolley made us so happy. The cable car. Because that's really classic. I just had the cable card. The cable card. It didn't read. You know, I just think it's not there's a cable running under the street that they put in an 1870 that just going in a circle also had some great meals. Oh, really great meals. Tampa, this guy's great cuisine. Oh my goodness. In fact, one of these places, if you're there, I insist you go called Cavalier. It's done up. It's a bar restaurant tavern and it's done as an English hunting lodge in the decor was decor really works for me for everyone. It does work for the one aesthetics are important. I guess I should admit something really gross. Okay. This tasteful. Yeah. Just bad. But since we are honest here. Yeah. When you when you started your back check about wanting to say thank you. Yeah. I thought you were saying thank you to me. Oh, I can think you as well. I thought because I thought where the story was going was that it's so much easier together. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's true. That's totally true. I should have said that. I'm sad. I didn't say that. No. Yeah. I always walk out with you. Yeah. So into two, I mean, if we eat a big turd together, it'll be together. Right. I thought maybe that's what was coming. And then I thought, oh, it's not maybe it's a different thank you also to me because because what was the second reason I probably agree with it too. Because because you were gone and you as you said, you took your sweet sister. Yeah. Yeah. Who who runs this household. Keeps it in check. Yes. And Kristen was at a table read yesterday. I don't know if I wanted to say that. But I think it came out. Yeah. It's been announced for the show. Yeah. Season two. A bill inquired about it. Because he's a dad. He's a dad. I tried to explain that to him. He didn't understand that. That's why he liked it. Yeah. It's hard to explain that to people. But anyway, he so she was at a temporary. So she was at Fox. She was far away. And Anna was with her. Yeah. And Lincoln had a tummy ache. Oh, no. So do you have to rescue her? So I went to pick her up. Was that your first time at that school? Yes. And isn't it beautiful? First of all, it's beautiful. We won't say what it is. No. Even though you probably already have on here. But it's beautiful. But I was lost. Yep. There's it's like big. It's like a mini UCLA. There's a campus. Yeah. Yeah. And I was lost and I kept having to ask like teens. But they're so confident. So what I think the first thing is you're like, wow, there's a really pretty campus. Yeah. That quickly pales in comparison to how palpable the confidence is of all those gals run around. Yeah. They're they're on. They're living out loud. But yeah. So I kept having to ask all these teens. One teen really was like the middle school's over there. Like she was by me. Yeah. And I was like, I'm cool. Like I have a podcast. Do you listen to podcasts? I must have stopped three different people. And I could not figure it out. But I I eventually. I never got her. She's still there. Did she get home? And then you know, she picked me up or she grabbed this one by in her mother's like, oh, grab me because I was lost. But it was so cute. And she said, oh, I thought you would be in San Francisco or wherever. I thought you'd I thought you'd be with dad. And I said, oh, no, it's just dad. She was like, he he kicked you out. And I said, no, it's not really how it worked. No benefit of the doubt. Yeah. She went straight tight kicked you out. She did. And I said, yeah, you should punch him. I didn't want to tell her that her appendix might explode. And that's what was going mid maybe going on. Yeah, sure. That was your first, though. That was my instinct. So I stuck around in case it didn't explode. It didn't. She had a poop and then feel. I didn't ask. Yeah. I'll find out tonight. In my first question, do you get that thing out? Do you get it? I have one really special moment before the show. They said we want to do a viral video with them. And I said, of course, so we played this. And then what's funny is it was tests on things from the book. But they put in catcher on the rye, which wasn't in the book. Okay. But he said something. And then I got it. I was it was on my head. Yeah. And he goes, what's that in the book? And I go, I don't think that was in the book. Is that one of your favorite books? And he goes, oh, yeah. And I go, oh, it's my absolute favorite book. And then we're like, we talk for two seconds. And I go, is that why you named your daughter Phoebe? And he goes, yeah. Oh, cute. And I go, I from the second I read that book, I was like, if I have a daughter, it's going to be Phoebe. And it felt very connected. I really liked that. I had the same exact catoms. And I had that bonding moment too. I think a handful of men have named their daughters Phoebe because they fell in love with that character. You know, you didn't do that, right? Is that not my first born name? So sorry to tell you. Maybe. So sorry. Yeah. Well, that's because we thought we have been a boy, if you recall. Sure. Now, you know, you have another Delta could have ended up being a Phoebe. Yeah. She would have been such a good Phoebe. Yes. She would have named really what have worked for her. It would. Although Delta really works pretty good for her. Of course. Yeah. I can't admit. Yeah. Maybe if I have one, I'll name it Phoebe. That's a ding ding. People have been pointing out in the comments that my new over indexing is Delta, which is 100% true. Not Delta, my daughter. Oh, the distance between two things. Yeah. Yeah. When I talk about, I'll say Delta and people are really noticing it. And I guilty as charged. Okay. Yeah. I love it. It's very efficient. It is. Instead of saying the difference between or gap between. Yeah. Actually, yeah. I guess you do. I do a lot. Yeah. I really got it from Formula One. They used Delta a lot in Formula One. What did you do while I was gone? Other than get lost Lincoln School. On campus. There's just something about being at school. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went to In and Out this weekend. You did. Yeah. You got an animal style fries and a what? And I got. No, I got it. I'm going to blow my nose. Okay. Sorry. That's okay. Have you blown today? A loss some progress. Oh, all right. It hasn't returned to the insanity, but it's also okay. Did you slip up on your trip with blowing? Yeah. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Hotel room. Well, I bring tissues over to the bed every night to have them ready. And then when they're there, then I kind of got to use them, but I can't risk that I will make it without blowing my nose and have to get up. It's a lot of stuff to consider. I know. Did anything else interesting happen? Oh, it's my god. Super bowl. Oh, die. That would be crazy. What was your favorite commercial? The Nike women's commercial. That was awesome. I love it. I bought the shirt. Oh, God. That was very cool commercial. That was right. That was the best. But man, I love Willem DeFoe. I do. I do too. I mean, he just has no hair. I know. That was a good pairing, but he's just right in the pod. Go check out his episode. He's so unique. What a gift he is. He is. He's a blessing. Yeah. I love that. He's a blessing. He is. Yeah. That was good. He's like N.O.S. Andersen movie, even The Infee's in a commercial. That was great. I couldn't hear all of them. Yeah. I didn't see most of them. I started it an hour and a half late. Oh, you did. I did. Wow. Yeah. And then fast forwarded through everything to catch up. Okay. Not needing to catch up as it turned out, because nothing changed. Yeah. But the only thing I cared about really, really delivered, which is a half time show. Oh, the half time show. Oh, my God. I loved it, but I definitely thought his mic was too low. I was having the hardest time hearing him, like the first four songs. Well, we couldn't hear, but it was. It was a bad mess. It was the TV know because when I watched it on YouTube, I could hear everything. Oh, really? Yeah. You should watch it on YouTube. I wonder if on YouTube they cleaned that up. Oh, maybe. But on the broadcast, I was like, his vocals need to be way up, just barely hearing the words. Yeah. I thought it was so good and so well done and so smart as he is. I don't know. I just thought it was so powerful. I loved it. And there's all these like, hit. I love hidden things. Okay. What were some of the hiding clues? What was in there? Well, did you realize you probably these probably aren't clues. They're probably obvious. But the stage was a PlayStation because the whole thing is like game the game. He's like playing this game with Drake. Uh-huh. Also, when Samuel Jackson is out there, it's I thought he was incredible. Incredible. Uncle Sam. Oh, my God. He was so incredible. That's that's a hard left. He's got to pop in and out. Perfect timing. I know. Finished before he's got a star. That was complicated. Yeah. And he was great. He was perfect. But he was almost more kind of more than Kendrick Lamar. Oh, don't say that. No. Oh, my God. No, San Jackson's like, you know, Kendrick Lamar. Well, I'm sure that's why he was there. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, it's iconic. Um, but they have the same vibe and spirit. Yeah. Yeah. But the the just the message no tap dancing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're not playing this game. Yeah. That was great. Serena. Yeah. I didn't. You didn't see that. You have to rewatch. Serena Williams. She sang. She came out and it was crypt dancing. Oh, I didn't see. You got you. I was saying the female singer was Serena. No, that's just a she's. Yeah. I was like, I don't think I think you got close, but I don't think it's. I know what I'm talking about. You know, you know, you know more than I do. For sure. Um, I didn't see Serena. You definitely need to rewatch. Okay. It's I had it very loud. And I got, um, I got goosebumps many times, several times. When it's the American flag and he's standing in the middle of it and they're all, all of the dancers in the arrangement are black. Uh-huh. Just so powerful. It's really powerful. It was. It really was. I love him. I, he, I want him to come on this show so badly. Yes. Me too. I had to get brought up to speed by Tim loves it about the beef about the beef. I told, I told you a little bit about the beef. I know about the pedophile part. Yeah. I know about the lawsuits. Yeah. I didn't know that he called Drake a colonized or I didn't know that last time. That's long. Yeah. And that Drake had called him accused him of making slave music. Did you know that part? No, but I know Drake. So I guess there was this huge. And Drake is rich. I heard Drake is like grew up rich. I heard. Oh, yeah, he's from Canada. You know, you know, Drake is. I have zero opinion on Drake. I just want to say that a lot. I have zero feelings. I have zero feelings about Drake except apparently. And there's a daily on this. Well, there is. Uh-huh. Okay. Um, Drake likes these beefs. Like he starts them. It's part. They're good for business. Sure. Yeah. But this one really got out. Uh-huh. And Kendrick isn't really ever the type to get involved in these types of things. He's kind of like, which Drake also calls out. I know you think you're so beefs Kendrick. Yeah. He's also in a beef with Andrew Schultz. Oh, interesting. Oh, yeah. Really? And Andrew did not at all count out. He just straight towards them. What is that? You'll have to watch all the videos. He has a line about don't let a white comedian make fun of our women or something. And then so and it's believed that he's referencing Andrew. And Andrew then comes out and says he's just not terribly worried about Kendrick. And oh, you then he is his attack back is like, oh, here's the dude you've supported who have rape women and who have beaten women. I don't think I'm your dude. So that was his pushback. And yeah, got saucy. Well, I thought boy, Andrew, you're pissing. That's so stupid. Very, very die hard for him, please. But yeah, he's got to lease those two going. But back to Drake. Yeah. Okay. But in the hip hop world, yeah, he doesn't really do this because he kind of was Drake says it too. Like you put your you I think you're so great. But you think you're this like poet. Yeah, yeah, which is any who Drake is rich and very popular. And like, you know, blends. He's not straight up, straight up hip hop. All right. Yeah. He's more poppy mixed with exactly club music. Yeah. So people think he's a phony. I found myself with that tension of loving a good fuck you song. And then knowing a better part of myself doesn't like this. Yeah, me too. But I in this case, I don't know. You went for it. So I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm getting charged up by this. Yes. And obviously that's not my aim in life is to like be pumped when someone else is telling another person to fuck off me either effectively. Well, the pro. Okay. I agree. Unless there's a huge class distinction. Of course, then I do enjoy. But regard. Yeah. I am with you. I don't like enjoy a beef track or a beef. I've never I've never been into a beef before. Right. This is your first piece. This is my first my first foray. In the world of beef. But now that I listen to the daily. And I know how many. So it was like this big weekend, I guess, where they were like back and forth. They kept putting out songs and retaliation to one another at the end. In the audience after the halftime show, it says game over. Right. Because he won. Right. And you know, he did win that song that his diss track won five Grammys. Right. Like, sorry. I feel bad. I actually do feel kind of bad for Drake. But he did start it. I don't even know. You started it quite in the daily. Okay. All right. I'm nervous. I don't want to be on either side of why? Because I don't I don't want to I don't want to join a team when the half the other people hate the team. I don't I don't want to be on a team that's hated by half of people. It's not my desire. I know. If I care deeply about this feud between Drake and Kendrick, yeah. I might, but I don't care at all. These are both very rich talented dudes. I don't think there's an oppressed version of. Well, I think, yeah. I mean, they did come from very different backgrounds. Like I don't it'd be like you who came from a certain background. You probably feel like you have more of an entitlement to talk about that and rap about that. Somebody who didn't experience it. But again, I don't even know enough about Drake. Is he rapping about the hood? He wraps about bling. Okay. Oh, since we're talking about pop culture. It's a rare idea tonight. I tend it for whatever reason be allergic to. Um, did you know the Kanye thing? Yes. So step one was arriving at the Grammys uninvited with the wife who was the naked. I mean, that was event number one. And then he had a he paid for his own Super Bowl commercial. Yes. Which directed people to go to his website. Go to easy.com. Yeah. And if you went to easy.com, there was a single item for sale. And it was a shirt with a swastika on it. Yep. I mean, this is is absolutely mad as conceivable. I dying to know is so bad. I'm dying to hear his thought process. I'm just dying to understand how he got himself to a point where he paid for a Super Bowl commercial. He hates Jewish people. He says it. It's not we don't have to read through the lines. The fact that that's not illegal. I don't like, I don't, although now I guess there's talk about the NFL maybe suing him because when he did the commercial, that wasn't up. He had real items on his side until the next day, he changed it. So I guess there is some conversation about him being sued for that. But I don't, it's what I want to know embarrassing. What I want to know to be clear is the same thing I wanted to talk to Rosanne about. He knows this is a very damaging move. I don't know. I don't know what it's like passing a point of no return. It's been like that though. He keeps doing stuff like this. Yeah, I mean, they're escalating and severity. He wasn't previously to my knowledge selling swastika shirts. No, but he was saying openly, he hates Jewish people and he's like, he's getting close to being a neo nazi. He is a hundred percent. He's a black neo nazi. Yes, he is. Now, there's a rational at one time seemingly savvy and rational person end up here. Other than just the obvious bipolar. Yeah, he is. He's bipolar. But yes, as I was reading something today, like that's that for people who are like, well, he's just he's bipolar, which he is. Yeah. 95% of bipolar people don't aren't hate filled. They're not using it to hurt people. And if you found out Hitler was bipolar, you wouldn't go like, oh, that makes sense. Yeah. I have a whole theory. I'm not entitled to have about Rosanne, which is I think the racism aside, it was racist. I acknowledge it. But that's just one of many historic things she has done at the height of her popularity to really alienate everyone and test whether they love her. Yeah. Like the the famous. Well, that's you that's you deciding and test what like that's you being very introspective and saying you think it's because deep down she's testing whether. Yeah, I think like when she's saying the national anthem intentionally poorly and annoyingly and she pissed everyone off and it's like the patriotism flared up and she's brilliant. So she's too smart to not know that wasn't a good move. So then I wonder what story is she confirming by doing this thing? Like, well, how could she as smart as she was convince herself that I'm going to do this? And I think it's this you don't believe all these people that love you really love you. And then your brain comes up with this bizarre test of that. Yeah. To find out to confirm your right, basically, but no one really loves you. They love this fake version of you. They see on TV or here in music. I have to believe that's going on with Kanye. I don't think so. I appreciate that you really give people and I don't think you're giving him the benefit of the doubt, but like I think I think a bunch of things have gone terribly wrong in this life that he's the author of no question. Yeah. He creates chaos. And I think you and probably many people feel like there's an empathetic reason behind that. Well, you think there's a reason other than that Kanye West was born evil. And now we're seeing it and he hit it for 40 years. But do you think and but you don't think anyone's born evil and I don't either, but I think people become I do think there are a there are people in this world who become irredeemable. They become so so driven to chaos and destruction and yeah, and I'm not making an argument that he should be redeemed. No, I would hope yeah, no. I'm not making an argument that people who have committed crime should not go sit in prison, but I am working with an assumption that something happened to them that now resulted in this. I think there are serial killers and I think there's narcissists and I think there's sociopaths who enjoy and there's there are sadists who like to hurt things. I know those people exist. Yeah, but I think a lot of non mental pathology people do really weird stuff that I'm quite curious why they would ruin their lives this in this way. Like this is a person who's ruined their life. Yeah, but over and over like it's not keeps doing it. He keeps causing harm. Does it seem like a tragedy to you because it seems like a tragedy to me. It seems like a waste to me, but I don't I don't think of it as a tragedy. I think what he's doing to people I think causing this kind of fear and instability and across the board, even when he like goes up and steals a thing from Taylor, it's all it's mean. It's bad. I'm also of the belief that a lot of that type specifically thrives off oxygen and so I don't like I don't really want to give him any ever like I think he's disgusting and I I don't want to talk about him really. I mean, not this is a fine conversation, but you know, everyone's of course like posting about it and there was another shirt made in retaliation, which I think is awesome. That is what he wants. He wants chaos. He wants a reaction. He wants people to be scared and be angry and I'm I don't want to play right like by just go away. Yeah. If you dare. Do you think he's sold any. I don't know. Well, it's gone now. Oh, it is. Yeah, Shopify took it down. Okay. Let's just say it's a historic public meltdown for the ages. I mean, it's one of the most bizarre things, but yeah, but it's it's not that bizarre because it's been such a lot. He's been escalating to this for so long. I mean, there was a period where he was just writing incredible music along came up with some of the greatest JZ songs with him. He like, there was some period where he was just a volcano of incredible creativity. He was, but we also don't know who he was back then. Like no, when I watched the doc about him before he got really crazy, what I saw as a guy who had some very deep social challenges his whole. I think he's very atypical as a person. I think so too. You know what part of the problem is I can admit, I so can't relate to hating Jewish people. It seems like the dumbest thing to me. Yeah. And so it's so Kuku that I wonder, how does one get themselves there? I hear you and that's me too. I'm like, I don't even understand this. Right. But six million of them were killed because someone didn't like them. Yeah. Yeah. One person who created such a massive revolution that like six million of them were killed. So it's, it sounds Kuku. And then that is also reality. Well, there's a huge history of it. Even before they killed them, they weren't allowed to participate in most of the economy. Yeah. I think they've been very poorly treated for hundreds and hundreds of years. Yeah, there's an underestimation of making a group the scapegoat of a problem. Yeah. And how really bad that can get when you have poor white people living in the same city with poor black people and poor Latinos. I see we see the lack of resources in the competition. That's definitely going to file into these in groups for kind of quite predictable. Like it's a bunch of people in scarcity, blaming one another for their scarcity makes a lot of sense. I'm not even sure where you're interacting in that circle. Like you're not thinking Jewish people taking your jobs, you're not thinking like all these other things that perpetuate that kind of inner city poor stereotyping and racism. Yeah. It's just like they're not going to jail a lot. There's not like I'm not even sure. They're, you know, they control the media. There's there's narratives. I mean, they're ridiculous, but there are narratives that get built about that's why I'm so allergic to any stereotype, whether it's good or bad because you don't know what the good ones know because it's a good one as soon as you start doing massive generalizations. It's really great hair. No, only me. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's, it is I've, I mean, I've been not really paying on purpose to much attention to what has been going on in the world. It does feel a little irresponsible. Like I'm trying to figure out the line of complete ignoring and keeping my sanity. I haven't really found it yet, so I'm, I'm sort of not partaking at all, but yeah, things make your way to you and it is scary. I mean, it's just that with that. And then to circle back to a little bit is, oh my god, it's so crazy. He put this t-shirt up. It's not that crazy because permission has been granted by our most elite in charge to say whatever the fuck you want to say to do whatever the fuck you want to do. Elon is doing a hail Hitler that was at our United States inauguration. So, you know, I'm just saying like, it's not out of nowhere that someone crazy like that is, is going to feel like, well, now is the time I can put my t-shirt up. Okay, well, speaking of stereotypes, Walton, one guy, shout out to Georgia Southern, a school near where I grew up. How far? 60 miles. Oh, you know, I don't know about miles. Probably further because the land is really in the middle. So, if it's called Southern, I gotta, it's gotta be closer to Florida, now. No, no, it's in the Georgia, the land area. Well, it's in Georgia. Right, but is it in Southern Georgia? Yeah. Okay, closer to Florida. I guess. I would imagine. I guess I, I've never thought of it as closer to Florida, but yeah, let's find out how far it is from my parent house. Great. I'm going to use maps for that. Okay, good. Okay, it's three hours and 28 minutes. Okay, some from more than 60 miles. 150, 116. Yeah, it's 231 miles. Whoa, that's very far. From my parents. From your parents. So it must really be on that border. It's here. It's here. And that's Savannah on the coast there. Okay, so it's a bit east and south from Atlanta. But yeah, it's pretty close to Jacksonville, yeah. Yeah, not too far. Too bad. You could be there for a lunch appointment if you had to get some fresh oranges. I had a lot of friends who went there. Did you guys, you guys would drive to Disney World? Obviously, right? You're very close. Yeah, we would. We're about six hours. Okay, the speed your father drove. It was eight hours. Let me put it in. It is new world. Six hours, 55 minutes. Okay. 472 miles. Okay. Sure, you guys had to stop. I know what it's like. Yeah, we had to stop. We couldn't go more than 60 damn miles this summer in Europe. Okay, Tortuga, yes, Spanish word for turtle. Well, it's a great word. It is. His earliest memories are in Decatur. My mom worked at Decatur Federal Bank. That was one of her first jobs. Okay. How long she served? I think her for her service, too. Me too. I don't know. Okay. Okay. In a Nullment. Yes. How does a Nullment work? Okay. In a Nullment is a legal ruling that ends a marriage by declaring it invalid. It makes the marriage Null invoite as if it never happened. Here are the criteria. Fraud, if one spouse tricked the other into marriage, coercion, if one spouse was forced into the marriage, mental incapacity, that's really bad. Hard to. That's stinging thing. Kanye's wife. Okay. They could get an Nullment. If one spouse was not mentally capable of marrying physical inability, if one spouse is unable to consummate the marriage. Yes. This is interesting. You were against this and I was for this. I know. I'm against it because you can't, if someone marries you and they can't perform sex with you, you needed to say that ahead of time because you can't just surprise someone a little bit and say, guess what? Sex won't be a part of this marriage. You can go, well, then that's obviously the understanding was there would be sex. But what if you are married, you're having sex and then it's been consummated? Yeah, it has been consummated. Yeah. Oh, it's consummated just the first time. So it's not like then in two months. So you get married and a year later, you still haven't had sex. Well, what if you have sex and then you stop being able to? Some men have that issue. Right. So then can you an all after like a year? It sounds like consummated is a very operative word. Okay. Yeah. So it sounds like never had sex. Okay. That's fair. You need to tell someone up front. What if you don't know? What if you've had sex with other people and then for some reason, with this person, you just can't. You should get your marriage annulled and find a partner. You can have sex with that's my suggestion there for both parties. What about if fraud? There was fraud. Fraud was listed in divorce and the annulment with Kenny Chesney. Renee Zellberger. Renee Zellberger. What happened? I know. That's the great curiosity. What was fraudulent about what he was promising? Or her? I think she cited fraud if memory serves me. Okay. This has been a very gossipy extra extra inside Hollywood edition. Yeah. Incessed if the marriage between people who are too closely related by blood, I agree with that one. Cousins though. I agree. Wait, you don't think Cousins can get married? No. Oh, you don't. That one's very loosey goosey. What? Yeah. We have an expert on that had a whole chapter about incest and has gone through the world and it's very rare for a culture to have forbid cousins to get married. It's very common everywhere. No. Cousins, you mean like second and third and fourth? I don't want to marry any of my cousins. Right. But I can also imagine never even meeting your cousin. I haven't met some of my, but I don't want to marry them. What if you met them in there? You meet them for the first time at 37. Yeah. And they're gorgeous. Great. Let's get married. Great. Meet me at the chat. Yeah. No. That's so. This is a John of the night. Cyclops is. No. So that's a little exaggerated. Not between siblings, but it's still kind of when it's too close, it's not good. Yeah, but that's science. This was a part of the that the book you share. I want to say it might have been Paul Bloom the last time I read this thing. I think it's it's been a little exaggerated. The genetic risk of cousins. I'm not, I don't want to be with my cousins, but I don't, I don't think I care if other cousins are together. Really? I don't think I do. I have to make myself care. I don't. I guess, I guess people can do what they want. I mean, it's very common throughout the world. Someone's preferred. No, it's not. Okay. Biggimme. If one spouse was already married to someone else, that feels fair. Biggimme is the only one we can come together on. You and I? Yeah. No, mental and capacity, right? And physical. Yeah. We don't and coercion. And what one don't is just consummation. I went for a consummation because oh, consummation is physical. Yeah. I know. I'm on the fence about that. I can't believe you're on the fence about that. Why get married? Be friends. What if you're in because love is not just love is more than sex and friends. The sexual love is romantic love and you get married. And then you have friendships that are loving and supportive. You could be roommates. That's great. But entering into the romantic bond of marriage with no attraction to the person or interests and it being sexual with them, I think it's a deal breaker. It's a total deal breaker. No, hold on. I want to be very clear. If you're asexual, I honor that. And you said to the person, I'm asexual. I don't ever want to have sex. Yeah. Great. And that person's like, cool. I don't either. Go crazy. Right. But you really need to declare that. Okay. That can be a surprise. Okay. I want to pivot this a little bit. You put sexual love and romantic love in the same bucket. You call that the same. Those are synonymous. Yeah. For you, those are synonymous. Yes. That's interesting. Oh, is it? Yeah. I think there are three buckets. I think there's sexual attraction, romantic love, and then friendship love. Why would romantic love be different than the sexual love? Because who would you be romantically in love with that you didn't want to have sex with? You would just be in love with them as a friend. No. I think maybe this is gendered. But I think for a lot of women, not me because I'm not married, but I could see this. I could see over time being less sexually attractive. I mean, this happens in every marriage. Less sexually attracted to your marriage, marriage partner. Yeah. But you're still romantically in love with them. You love them in a way you don't love your friends. Yes. But you had a sexual relationship that has slowed down as opposed to you were never intending to have a sexual relationship. And sex was never going to be a part of this. I guess I'm just saying to me, those are there are three buckets. They're not like loving someone romantically or loving a partner. Apart from sex is a different kind of love and care and then a love for a friend. For me, for you know, this is kind of interesting. Yeah. I think I'm either I want a romantic love with a woman or I want a friendship love with them. There's no third bucket for me in considering love. Last, sure, there's people I would love to have sex with that I would not want to hang out with, which is kind of gendered generally speaking. But yeah, there's no one that I would want a romantic relationship with that I wouldn't want to have sex with wouldn't happen. Right. Then they would just be a friend. And I wouldn't marry them. Yeah. You want to marry a friend? No. And have no sex. No, I know. And that does define an allment if they ask for it. I'd say that. I didn't say that. I just think romantic love is different than sexual attraction. Obviously you want both in your in your. Like romantic love is wanting to kiss the person's lips. Yeah. That's fun. Yeah. That's the same thing as sexual attraction. But those aren't different things to me. But over time, like there's no one I want to kiss really bad, but then don't want to have sex with. If I want to kiss them and I love them, but like over time in the man and not to get too personal, but like every time you kiss Kristen, you want to have sex with her? Like no, like that's it. No, but I would like to have sex with Kristen. Yeah. Right. And if I didn't want to have sex with her, that would be an issue. But if you didn't want to have sex, let's say like now, after so many years, you stopped really wanting to have sex with her. But you it's to love her romantically in a way that is different than how you love. Yeah. I just, I think comparing something 20 years out in week one, no one's getting a marriage in old after 20 years. I'm talking. You marry someone is as revealed to you. They have no intention to have a sexual relationship with you. I think you're definitely entitled to get out of that marriage. Yeah. I mean, I guess I agree. It's false advertising. Well, also it's on you. Why haven't you, why haven't you asked about their sexual appetites before you married them? Well, I think you have said I can't only to be married. I can't wait for our first night. I can't. I'm sure. That's fraud. And then the person then go, there's not going to be a first night just so you know, because I don't want to have sex with you, because I am not romantically attracted to at all. What do they want to really bad, but they just can't. Meaning they can get an erection. Yeah. Again, if you are not able to ever get an erection and have sex with your wife, then I think your wife's entitled to be with someone who can. I am sorry. It's already a bummer for you. It shouldn't also be a bummer for that person. Okay. What if a couple was waiting to have sex until they got married. And then they both were really horny. He could get it up. Yeah. She figured it in. Yeah. Yeah. But then on the night of the wedding, his dick gets cut off by a stranger. Someone comes, a robber comes in and he starts attacking and the robber cuts his dick off and leaves. It's still not fraud because you didn't false advertise. Right. He just someone cut your dick off. Yeah. Someone cuts my dick off. I'm still going to put a lot of energy into making sure Kristen's still having lots of sexual experiences, but not sexual intercourse with my penis. No, because it's gone. It's gone. That's called consummate. Okay. So it's on the actual day of the wedding. Yeah. I mean, that's quite complicated. And I don't know if we have a single case of that ever happening. But if that happened, that would be up to the gal to decide if she wanted to never have sex, the rest of her life. Yeah. Or if she decided she does want to have sex, then what a arrangement could they work out where she could still have sex, then they could still be married. Do you think most men would allow her to? No, most men are very jealous. I know. That's the thing. They would not allow her to go have sex. I would for sure. Yeah, I would almost insist on it. I mean, she probably might want to. Yeah. I know. It would probably be a thing. Yeah. Like you can I can't go your whole life. It's not your fault that I might dick I caught off at the ceremony. Right. Yeah. Little did you know she hired that robber. Oh my god. Because she was asexual the whole time. Yeah. All right. But again, someone asexual is going to be upset. I'm not judging you. I'm talking about you two asexual people want to get married and have a non-sex marriage. That's great. Or an asexual person with the sexual person. If that sexual person decides it's fine. Yeah. Good luck to them. That's up to them. Everyone gets to make their own. Yeah. But as everyone's got to be honest. Unless it's incest. Then you got to just got to be honest. Everyone has to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. If you're honest, I think you should be able to get out of that. Sure. I understand that. I also just think it's stupid. Like, an element to me isn't less than a divorce. Just get divorced. Well, but it is in that there's no splitting of communal property. There's just never happened. There's no much illegal fees. There's no. But it says the marriage records remain on file. Yeah, but you no longer have to say I was married into divorce because you weren't. Now that to me is fraudulent. If I married someone and then later and I found out that they had an annulment, they didn't tell me. All I'm saying is you're not a divorcee. Who cares? It does the same thing. If I'm married, I mean, yes, someone should tell somebody if they had an annulment, but I definitely see why if someone coerced you into any, you shouldn't have to go get a divorce and have that be your ex-husband and all these things. No, I think it should be like it never happened. Interesting. You're very religious now. I am very wrong in his name we pray under his eye. That was it. Okay. I don't want you to get an annulment, but it's very fun. Why? We'll just because we just talked about it. I don't want to have to go through any of these. What avenue are you going to pursue? That is so mean. Because you have a menu of options. I want this annulment. Let's hope it's not incest. So sad. I love you. I love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the OneDry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and add free right now by joining OneDry Plus in the OneDry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at onedry.com/survey.