Jeremy Persaud on Youth Crime, Jail Realities, and Building a Way Out

What started you down the path to even enter the criminal justice system? I feel like I wasn't able to be a kid. You have to understand, like, the things that we're exposed to. I feel like my own existence is illegal. At the end of the day, it's survival. Like, how valuable is your life? Because you only have one. Jail never scared me straight. I came out worse. When I got released, everyone's kind of waiting for my cue. Like, I just expected I'm just going to re-offend. And I'm like, nah, man, like, I need better for myself. Like, I know that I can do better. What made you make that change? Why wait till you get there to learn these lessons? If I could save you that trip, I'd transform my life to be living proof. Welcome back to another episode of Who Judges the Judge, the podcast meant to make you question the way you judge the world around you. Today's guest is Jeremy Persaud. He is the CEO of A1 Films. It's a film company based out of Toronto. He's also the founder of an incredible organization called the Commitment Program, aimed at providing youth with access to employment opportunities, as well as counselling and educational workshops in hopes of steering them in the right direction. Jeremy, thank you so much for being on the show today and spending your afternoon coming to share with me a little bit about what you're doing. I love it, first of all. We don't really know each other. Yeah. You reached out to me last month. I think actually of all the guests I've had, you're someone I know the least of everyone I've interviewed. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny. You reach out to me on Instagram and we're just like, hey, can you come do a workshop on, you know, constitutional rights and charter rights for youth? And I was like, sure. Can you tell me a little bit about who you are and what you do? And you sent me this email about your own, your history, your journey, your story and your program. And I was so moved. I really was. Not only, of course, agreeing to do the workshop that we're about to run in a couple of weeks, but, you know, I wanted you as a guest to talk about your story and how you, you know, sort of the catalyst to you starting the commitment program and also some of the challenges you've had running it. You know, so many people in society right now are like, oh, these youth, how come they they go through the system and they cycle through and there's all this recidivism and nobody's doing anything to like help themselves or help others. And you are an example of someone who has not only helped yourself get out of the system, but now you're trying to help others stay out of the system. Exactly. Let's talk about it. So, you know, part of why I sent such an extensive email, because like I really want you to feel where I'm coming from and not that like I just want something from you, you know, there's like a lot behind it, you know. So I guess we're going to talk about all that. Absolutely. And I did feel it like as soon as I read your email, I was like, yes, I'm going to come into your workshop. No problem. Send me dates and times. And also like come share your story with me because I really, really was moved. Yeah. So, you know, I'm not going to read your email, but it starts off with you telling me that you had served time for a gun offense. Yeah. When did that? How old were you when you were charged with being in possession of a firearm? So I was like about 27, just turned 28. OK, I'm there. And did you get bail? Yeah. So I got bail after a while of struggle. So I couldn't really get it in the neighborhood. So I had to kind of outsource family members, somebody. But most of the family lives in like housing or like areas. Finally, I did end up finding someone and I was able to get bail. And then I was on house arrest for like maybe like two and a half years. OK, so while you were on house arrest, did you breach? Yeah, I ended up reaching eventually. I actually got caught for a breach for having a cell phone. OK, so one of my conditions, I was supposed to have a cell phone. And at the time I had like two cell phones. But I ended up like beating that charge essentially. But when I was sentenced, you're supposed to like go to like Penitang because I was provincial. OK, but I got to stay within the city because I still had the charge. So I had court like every two weeks. Right. So that kind of helped me to stay in the city, you know, so my family could visit and stuff is easier. And yeah, you know. And what was the sentence you ultimately pled guilty? So, yeah, I pled guilty. So it was just like it's a long story and everything. But I had like 16 charges initially. But then they dropped it down to like four. And they tried to put me up against my brother, like collateral damage. OK. And then, you know, this basically said if you go to trial, you'll get six years, both of you lose. But if you plead guilty, we'll just give you like three years. And I was like, you know what? I'll take the three years. And as long as you free my bro, you know, then I'll just take that. You know, so my lawyer advised against going to plea because he was like he could beat the case. But like he basically wants like on top of what we already paid him. He wanted like another like thirty five K to go to trial. You know, realistically, our family, we don't really have money like that, you know, and then not really getting through with legal aid and stuff like that. So it's like not to say that legal aid is bad or anything. But, you know, like I've seen a lot of people get dump truck, right? Yes. So having a good lawyer is like a really important thing, you know. So I think it's harder now than ever for people to find a good lawyer that will take a legal aid certificate. They're very few and far between. You know, just looking at the financial side of things, I just pled guilty that I'm just going to do my time and then just keep it moving in my life. So let's talk. So there's some people that think that if you're charged with a crime, you're a criminal and therefore you'll always be a criminal. And therefore we should just, you know, lock you up and throw away the key. I get a lot of comments like that on my feed. What started you down the path to even enter the criminal justice system? What was life like for you growing up, going through school, going through the motions? You have to think like, you know, how it all starts. So like my family come into Canada. From where? From Guyana. OK, so when they came from there, they came from poverty. They came from a lot of racism, discrimination, a lot of like, you know, just hardships and sometimes even famine, like shortage of foods, certain things like that. So when they came to Canada, like first of all, their probably dream was to go to America. But Canada is like the next best thing. So when they come to Canada, they end up in Toronto housing or whatever. But they don't acknowledge it as a low income. Like, what do they know? Because where they came from was just the slums, you know, in their country. So anything's better than that. So like, you know, certain areas that majority of like Guyanese people would all migrate to. I guess they tell each other like this is where we're at this area. So my family started in one neighborhood. But then my dad seen that, you know, this one's kind of rough. So he moved to another neighborhood village where I'm from now, you know, born and raised 36 years. And basically it was lively when I was growing up. It was like, you know, the 90s and it was lively. There was programs. There was a lot going on. Sense of community has always been there. You know, my dad's a pastor. Entire family otherwise is all Hindu. So when my dad made that conversion, he was like on a mission to like, you know, make sure that his kids grow up Christian. And this is a Christian household. So I was pretty much sheltered a bit, given a lot of responsibilities as a pastor's son. You know, mom and dad did a great job. But like, there's only so much that they could shelter you from the world. Right. So I would say when they dropped us off to school, you know, our homeschool is in another, you know, area that's kind of known for bad stuff or whatever. So there's schools in between closer. But for some reason, we don't attend those schools. We have to go to our homeschool because our postal code or whatever takes us somewhere else. So for people who don't know, and I think this is so important and we're not going to name the areas because I don't want you to feel any ways about this. And I told you before we start, there's something that you don't want to share with the public. I'm not I'm not trying to get you to share anything you're uncomfortable with. But there's a lot of people that listen to my podcast to try to understand some of the background and some of the history and what might drive people to enter the criminal justice system. And so, you know, you're saying that even being on a podcast is trying to help share people's stories. If you name different communities that might have an issue with other communities, you might be opening up yourself to some problems. Yeah. You know, so I just don't feel the need to name like them, you know, but like because of that, because there may be some issues that arise as a result. Yeah, of course. You know, Toronto is big on that, you know, but pretty much like just coming in these areas as a, you know, middle school age, like grade six, grade seven, grade eight. You have to understand, like the things that we're exposed to and the amount of violence and things that we've seen firsthand experiences. Right. So it's like I seen those things in the home or in the community. You're seeing that in the community and the home is also like West Indian home is very rough. It's like your parents talk to you very, you know, roughly like, you know, and it's just like you leave the home already kind of angry and pissed off because the temperature at home is just like, you know, always a shortage, some argument over finances or something. You know, everybody's working, you know, jobs, two or three jobs just trying to pay the rent or whatever. But, you know, I grew up without cable. I didn't have cable. We had an antenna. You know, we didn't have really brand name clothes or anything, you know. So we just wore our cousin's hand-me-downs. So like real 90s aesthetics, you know. So basically, you know, the things that we're exposed to at 14, we weren't able to really I feel like I wasn't able to be a kid. Like I feel like from like 14 years old, I caught my first charge. I caught an assault charge, you know. So like even with me catching a charge, like, you know, like I was just trying to stand up for what was right. And some guy was trying to bully someone. And I don't like bullies, you know. And I just punched a guy in his face and I got charged with assault. So from 14, getting a young offenders charge, already being in the system. Now I have little conditions or whatever. You know, back in the days, there was something called a Tavis unit. And the Tavis unit basically terrorized our lives as kids, you know, because they're running upon us every single day, searching us, beating us up. You know, I've been assaulted by the police like terribly. Like I've got beaten to the point where like I can't even speak. The like the words I'm yelling on the inside, but not a word could come out because I'm like winded to death, broken ribs, kicked in your face, like when you're handcuffed, you have to, you know, try to absorb the hits with maybe your head instead of your face or like whatever. So you you get hit so much to the point where you're like just waiting for the next hit, you know. So these are things that I dealt with as a youth, like, you know, from 14. So from 14, I'm just already trying to figure out how do I navigate this. So now I was litigating some of the cases involving Tavis because I I started practicing in criminal defense in 2010. And so Tavis was alive and well. And for, you know, anyone not in the system, it was Toronto's anti-violence, I think, integration squad or something. I can't remember what IS stands for, but it was there. Supposedly the anti-violence squad that was being sent into various, you know, impoverished communities and was basically conducting illegal detentions, illegal searches, running up on people, seeing who had what. You know, sometimes they found people who were caught carrying contraband. Oftentimes they weren't. You know, I was hearing from so many clients who would tell me that they spent years being illegally searched by the same unit. And it's part of what caused them to enter the world of crime because they figured, you know, if I'm just doing the right thing, going to school and going to play basketball and walking home from the courts, I got these cops running up on me and searching me. Why am I trying to do things the right way if I'm going to get treated as though I'm doing things the wrong way in any event? Yeah, they used to run up like deep, a lot of them, you know. And, you know, they say, where's your ID? And then they'll charge you for a roach. So anything, a dime, a roach, anything, you know. So imagine you get your first weed charge. You go to court. They give you like a variation. No. What was it called? Diversion. Right. You know, you do a little diversion program. The second time they say, oh, we're not supposed to give you diversion. They give you another diversion. You get a third time. Now they're like, OK, well, you know, you have to come back to court, whatever. So as a kid, I got like so much weed charges. Like, you know, got charged with offenses that I never did just because other people use my name and stuff and whatever, you know. And I was just kind of a solid guy. So I just like, you know, just ran with it. You know, I'm just like, whatever, you know, hug the charge for somebody or whatever, you know. But at the end of the day, my name in the system is not really looking too good from a young age. And I'm already feeling rebellious because how many times that they assaulted me and just beat me up and they just want me to tell on somebody. And I'm just like, I'm not saying nothing. I have the right to remain silent. Right. So it's like I feel like my own existence is illegal. You know, if I'm just. Wow, that's powerful. You know, that's a powerful sentiment to think that you're going through life as a teenager, feeling like your existence is illegal. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. So and in the midst of all of that, it's like poverty. Right. So my parents in the home, the arguments are like mental breakdown type arguments, you know, things that will make you feel like, oh, like the world's about to end, you know, can't pay the bills, this and that. So when you're leaving out there in the world, obviously, as a as a guy, like as a man, like I want to try to provide for my family in some shape or form, whether it's like getting a job at McDonald's, no frills or whatever. I always like had a job. But the job is like only doing so much, too. Right. So it's like eventually I'm in the streets trying to, you know, just make a little ends meet or something, little provision if I can. You know, but at the end of the day, it comes with a lot. So just being from Toronto, being a guy, once you leave your house, you look a certain way on brown skin. You know, people just say like automatically they're going to target me. You know, the police and then plus people in the streets, like the streets is, you know, there's different levels, you know, there's like people that are just hustling, people that are robbing, people that are killing, you know, so there's different like some people are kidnappers, like, you know, there's levels to it, you know. So I think I was at a first level. But then guys that were on this level was bringing it to me, you know, when I'm just 14, 15, you know. So I think this is a really interesting point, because a lot of people don't appreciate that, you know, you're 14, 15. You're starting to get involved in the system. You're starting. You know, you said you're getting caught or like weed related offenses, small stuff, assaults, things like that. But that's the point in which. There could have been some intervention from the system addressing why is this happening? That obviously didn't happen for you, I'm assuming. Nobody was trying to like help you overcome whatever issues you had. And also, I mean, you're going back to obviously the same environment that you came from, going back to the same household that you've got all these issues in to begin with. But you're also going back into the same community. And now the older guys know that you're starting to enter the system. You're starting to cycle through. And so how does that play out for you? I would never say like any older guys like had anything on me. But what I would say is like that my reasoning for just like, you know, getting deeper into things is just survival, like survival, as in like I was saying, like when I'm just on a smaller level, but then there's some guys that just came out from Kingston Penn doing 10 years and he's trying to bring it to me because I might be a young boy getting a little money or something, you know. And then I'm not ready for that level. But the streets doesn't wait for you to be ready. It's just fast track into it. You know, so me just trying to survive after, you know, being threatened to be kidnapped, to be robbed, extorted, stuff like that. And I'm seeing the toughest guys, the toughest, the baddest of the baddest of them all getting ran upon. You know, people are eating foods, people are running up in cribs. Like this is a common thing that was happening around the 2000s. Like there is a time where like, you know, cameras just started coming out. You know, so what about the times before the cameras? And there's a time where a lot of people got raided and deported. But what about before the raids and all of that? Toronto was this like a, you know, it's like a wild place, right? So me as a kid growing up, like people used to be on the streets, like they'll just come up to you, dip in your pockets, take your phone, take your change, take everything you have, you know? So like now everyone has cell phones. They don't know because like now people don't steal phones because there's like a tracker on it. So it's not really worth it to steal a phone. But back then people would just take everything you got. So me just being like, I feel like of a Guyanese ethnicity, too. I felt like an extra pressure that, you know, to survive out here, you know, in a, you know, like the jails are 90% like black population, too. And I'm a brown skin. Some people, they label me as black. But, you know, it's still like a little gray area. But what I was just trying to say is like I live with my family. This and that. There's some people that they just grow up in the trap houses and they just grow up in the hood and, you know, they're going to look at me like, oh, they're going to try to take something from me or they're trying to kill me. I've been in so many situations where back against the wall, guns pointed at me, you know? So, you know, there comes a point in your life where, you know, you have that talk with yourself and you're like, I don't want to die or I'm scared to die. So like if I just have like a last second chance to protect myself, like, you know, would I take that? You know, like I said, your parents could save you so much when they drop you off to school or whatever. Now you enter the real world and the real world is no forgiveness. They don't care about your family, your mom, your dad, where you come from. Even when you go to jail, you're a new fish. People don't care who you are. Like, you know, until they get to know you, you're explaining yourself. Like there's so many people that are heartless out here. So at the end of the day, like I just think, you know, maybe the reason why, you know, I was just scared to die, maybe, you know, and then maybe now in my older age, maybe I'm not afraid to die. So that's why I'm taking a stand for community. Community leaders get killed like in Toronto. It's a fact, you know, like it happens. So it's like I'm putting myself in a line knowing this. But maybe when I was a kid, I wasn't ready to die. I didn't want to die yet, you know, and I was like in so many situations where I felt like if I just had it on me, then I could have got out of this situation, you know, so. And when you say it for people who aren't people who are listening and aren't in the life, you mean having a gun on you? Yeah. Because there's a lot of talk. Like there's I have people from all sides of the political and social spectrum that listen to this podcast and that, you know, are on my Instagram feed. And there are people who will listen and totally understand and relate to everything you're saying right now. And then there's people who are so far removed from the life. They're not a part of the justice system at all. They're not in community housing at all. They don't know anyone. And all they hear on the news all the time, 14 year old, the gun, 15 year old, the gun, 16 year old, the gun. And, you know, obviously they don't want to be the victims of like a carjacking or a robbery. Yeah. For example, there's legal gun owners. Right. And there's in America, they have the right to bear arms. Right. But in Canada, you're pretty much kind of limited. And then even if you are, because I know some people are educated to that aspect, but a lot of us growing up in these neighborhoods, we're not educated to like the gun laws or whatever. We just and I don't even think we would be able to. Well, there's no carry concealed in this country. Even if you're like for I'm a legal gun owner, like legal gun owners, we can't carry concealed. So we can't be out in the street with a gun in our pocket as just ordinary citizens in a locked box or something. Correct. And so, you know, but a lot of people here and they're like, why is this 16 year old, you know, carrying a gun? Yeah. So why do 16 year old generally from your both personal experience and the youth that you work with today without obviously naming anybody, but like as a general question, why would a 16 year old feel like they need to have a gun on them? So I feel like people just move on to the next news story. Right. And they're just like, OK, whatever. You know, just the other day, a little kid got a straight bullet, got killed. Right. So this is a reality that we live in, that people may try to cover up and like hide, you know, by saying like, yeah, because life goes on and there are so many beautiful days in life. But like when these tragic moment happens, it's like, let's not forget that this thing happened. And if you've ever been in the situation, it's easy to have an opinion from the outside, you know, like if you've ever been in a situation, have you ever been on a roller coaster and your body gives that kind of like reaction that fight or flight kind of thing? Like, what do you do? There's like a panic nervous system that's going on in your body. So when you deal with so many, so many situations, seeing this firsthand experience, you know, think about me seeing brains, blood, stuff like that from a kid. And then now you witness gun violence in your youth. Of course. Yeah. Of course. Well, a lot of people don't know that this is an actual reality of growing up in our city. So it's so interesting that you say, of course. Yeah. Because I mean, maybe you're just assuming that I knew. But, you know, for anyone who this isn't their reality, you know, explain why the types of things that you see in the types of people, things that you help other people work through that would lead a teenager to want to carry a gun. Yeah. It's just like pressure. I think they're in a rush to grow up. I think these youths are in a transitional phase in their life where it's like you're not yet a kid, but you're not yet an adult. So nobody takes you serious. You have all these ideas, want to do things. Everyone's just like, yeah, yeah. Tell me what to do. So I feel like at that stage, like, you know, maybe youth, nobody's understanding them. So when they're trying to tell people it's real out here, stuff's going on. They're like, you should be in school. You should be doing this. You have your whole life ahead of you. And they're like, you know, if you're not going to listen, then they're just probably not even going to trust you to tell you anything. But they're going to figure it out. For example, when I was 14, like if you were to ask me where to get something, I don't know, but I'm going to, you know, get it regardless. So these people are getting it regardless. There's like, do you think anyone knows of like gun stores or anything? So it's not about like where it's coming from or whatever. It's just that if there's a will, there's a way. If there's a need, it's going to be there. It's going to be fulfilled. So at the end of the day, it's survival. Like, how valuable is your life? Because you only have one. So if somebody takes my life, then I just die. But like if I was able to defend myself or something, live to see another day, like some stories on the news that I've seen that somebody somebody tries to run up in this guy's spot and he is able to defend himself. You know, it doesn't mean that you have to like you can do it to the extent of self-defense. You don't have to go all in. Like, say like the police, when they run upon people, it's excessive amount of bullets and shots. Like, why don't you just shoot them in the leg or something, you know? So it's like that heat in a moment. No one could describe it. So if you've ever been in the heat in a moment and been on the other side of the gun, then, you know, you would feel the anxiety, the PTSD, the mental health, the depression, like all that. But do I go around telling people like, hey, like I have mental health, like, you know, because that's a disability nowadays. So now if I open up, now all of a sudden I'm a person with mental health, like I need to be treated special. It's like, you know, I'm normal. I'm just like everyone else. I went through the system and the system is holding me back, you know, and it's been so many years after my charge. But the record only starts after your warrant expiry date, like after your parole is done, then your record starts, you know. And I have a 10-year indictable offense. So let's say if it was a five-year record, I would be like good now, kind of on my way, you know, just growing with life. You know, I took my five years, developed myself. And I wanted to, you know, in the system, even in the jail, I was like compared to everybody, all the inmates in the population, I am like more of a chill you, more of a good you, you know, compared to like some of the real sickos that I've seen out there, you know. But I don't discriminate. Like I was in jail and I was best friends with all the killers and all the murderers. Like they're all my friends. They're all good people. You just don't know the situations that people are placed in front of them, you know. So some people, yes, they are a lot of waste suits out. here that are, you know, hitting innocents and crashing out a lot of, you know, 14 year old youths with firing arms and they're stealing cars and they're doing dumb stuff, but, you know, so like, you have to see who does it righteously and who's doing it, you know? Because you're part of an older generation now, right? You're mid thirties. So you're, you're in the older generation. When you were running around the streets, there was a bit of a code of ethics. You didn't run up on a civilian who was unconnected to street life. If you were going to run up in someone's house, it was a rival gang member, a rival drug dealer. It was a rival. Or you were looking to rob someone of their guns or their drugs. There was like a code. People weren't doing, you know, home invasions on an innocent civilian to get the keys to their BMW that was parked on the driveway. That was not the culture back in the 2000s. It probably still happened, but it's more common now. Like the commonality of the crash out culture. What is that? What's a crash out culture for people who don't know? Crashing out just means when you just like throw your life away, you know, to do something stupid. You know, back in the days, if people was doing something, you know, you're trying not to get caught. Right. So you're trying to be a smooth criminal and even have longevity, even though there probably is none. But there are some people that are real militant, very discreet, do their things very neatly, you know. But this generation, everyone's telling on themselves. They're just crashing out. They don't care if they get caught because, you know, I'm not trying to say it's not a strict punishment. But when you go to jail, think about what really happens when you go there. Like day one, you walk into the range and then that's it. It's just very still. Right. But there's living people in here because like you can be go on a range while everyone's locked down and then or you can walk on a range while everybody's out. There's certain hours like that people are out on a range. So if you walk out there and people are out, then you're going to get surrounded. And it's like there's no government structure in, you know, like what did they say? Rehabilitation, correction. Like who does that? The guards, the staff. So there's no rehabilitation because the general public thinks that like you just go in there and all it is is inmates on inmates. So everybody's just hanging out as if this was like you're on the block in the staircase or this is just a bigger staircase. And we're all here from different areas and nobody knows each other. Nobody likes each other. Everyone has their own thing going on. They're just creating a systematic like way for people to have problems with each other. It's like a stirring pot for problems, you know, and like I seen one of your Instagram posts when you're talking about the inmates doing three to a cell. And think about that three to a cell. There has to be a hierarchy. You know, who's sleeping on the floor? Someone's going to fight for that. Who's using the shower? Someone's going to fight for that. Who's using the phones? Yeah. Some people are not even using it. They'll just hang it and be like, what? That's mine. You know, touch that. See what happens. You know, some people just put a sock on it and be like and just leave it hanging and they're doing whatever and you still can't touch it. You know, there's not no like, you know, I don't know what people think jail is. It's not like 60 days in. None of these shows, Toronto Jail is not like none of these shows. It's just like literally like, you know. So do you think like kids today are doing easy time or hard time? It's hard time. So the defense bar, like we're fighting to try to get people's constitutional rights respected in the jail because we know, number one, especially for people who haven't been convicted of an offense yet, you know, you're treating people in an inhumane fashion who are presumed innocent. Exactly. Which is the cornerstone, obviously, of our justice system. But at the end of the day, you know, I've been saying for a long time, I think that our jails are one of the most violent environments sanctioned in Canada. Eventually, most inmates come out. And if you treat someone like an absolute animal in a cage and then just release them back out into the community, you cannot expect them to be functioning in a pro-social format. You can't expect them to want to do good and now have respect for the law. Exactly. So, for example, like, sorry to cut you off. I used to always have a job, just a little, you know, something on the side, whatever. I went to jail, it turned me into an animal. The conditions turned me into a savage, a real savage. I wasn't human no more. Like I literally turned into an inmate. I gave in. I said, I'm orange, you're blue. Let's go, let's do this, you know, because every day you're treated like you're nothing. So basically, we have a couple inmates that, shout out to the guys that are good at negotiating and speaking up and advocating, because there's some people that are very good with their words and know how to argue without arguing, but like being respectful and disrespectful at the same time. So like those guys are great. Like they, we have rights, you know, for our rights, you know, we'll say we're refusing to do this, refusing to do that. And the way they apply pressure, the guards, a lot of inmates don't have that heart, you know, they are innocent people in jail, right? So some people don't have the heart they'll give in, you know, mid protest, but then some people are like, nah, like we're standing strong to this and they'll bring the SWAT team, everything, you know, so the guards do a lot of stuff. Think about this, like, like you said, who judged the judges, right? So in the jails, who is going to see what's going on there? They run that world. So, you know, even though there's cameras and stuff, people are getting rushed by the guards every single day and inmates on inmate violence every, every day, of course, that's a given, like through every jail, when it's cold blue, everybody wants to know who it is. Cause like every day it's going to be a cold blue and then cold blue is what the guards know about. What about all the things they don't know about, which is every day. So anybody that has family in the jails and, you know, they're not going to tell you, you think anyone wants their family to worry? They're going to say, everything's blessed. Everything's good. Don't worry. But do you know what's really going on? Hey, I have no idea. It's a war zone in there. And so knowing this, explain to me, but to the general public. Yeah. And even to me, how do we reconcile the fact that we know that the conditions in the jails currently are worse than they've ever been. And yet you're talking about a generation involved in what you've labeled brash out culture. We've got kids who are committing crimes. They're outing themselves. And I know that because I get their cell phone extractions, everybody's recording their own crimes, which is like this phenomenon that I don't understand. Everyone wants to document their own crimes. They want to post it on Instagram. They're talking about it freely. They're also doing things in not only just broad daylight, like we can't walk down the street without being caught on someone's CCTV footage, whether it's a business, a private citizen, cars now, you know, everything, doorbell cams. That's it. Everything. You can't exist in this world without being on camera. Yeah. And everybody knows that. So, you know, is it just like, is it a cult, like this crash out culture? They just don't care. They don't mind going to jail. Like there are people who think jail should be worse for people. I think, I don't think that's the solution, but what is the solution? I don't know about the solution. I would say, you know, why would they build more jails? They're saying they're overpopulated, build more jails. Like that's going to solve anything. But yeah, they probably need more jails to like house people in that term. But at the same time, like this whole thing is a money grab. Like, think about this. They need crime. Like society needs crime. It's like a balance, right? So who, how does the judge get paid? Courthouse is never empty. You know, right now we have cases that are backlogged for like, how long, then how long till you get a court date or your trial, you know, they'll just put you on months on months on months. Like your life doesn't even matter. Every time you go, okay, next month, we'll come back next month, every month, every month, just push in, you know? So at this end of the day, it's like this system, there's so much wrong with it in that sense. The way inmates are treated is so inhumane. So if they're just playing with their life now because of court backlog and so, and putting them in inhumane conditions, making it worse and worse and worse. And think about trauma from one day, you know, one day life trauma, one day, I bet you like the mayor or anyone could not even go for one day and not even, not in SAG or the good range to step down the PC, go on the gen pot for one day, you know, and think about doing that every day. And if they go one day, they're going to make it be the real day where you get out and you do this, right? Go on one of the bad days, like, and they could lock you for three days with no shower, 72 hours. Then they'll say, oh, shower program. And you know, who goes first? Like everybody's saying, okay, you went first. All right. When these cells open up, you know what time it is. So what's the solution? I would say like, you know, you got to allocate funds in different areas. You know, right now, policing, jails, jails don't do nothing but make you worse. They turn you into the inmate when you release back in society. I don't feel welcome. Like I feel like, you know, when I went to jail, I almost felt a sense of belonging. I was almost felt like, oh, like everybody here understands me, you know, like everybody gets me like we're not bad people, which is situational things that happen, you know, but then think about this. Like right now I'm doing my youth program and this is how like the whole change happened because I never, jail never scared me straight. I never got like, you know, rehabilitated. None of that shit. I came out worse. I came out on intentions. Maybe I'm going to start a gang and terrorize the city or something, you know, like, let's get it. Like, let's get this money, you know, or anyone tries to fuck with us. Like now with the links that I made from jail, like you can't, you can't break this. Like we have brotherly bonds. You're living with people, you know, so. How long were you incarcerated for? For just a year. I got blessed, you know, because. And so in that year is all it took for you and you described yourself. You came out like an animal. You came out with better connections. You thought you were going to start a gang and terrorize the city. I mean, I had the influence. I have the influence. Like, you have to understand why these kids are going to jail. When they come out, they have this, oh, this clout, like, oh, you did a bid. So even me before that, I had clout before there was clout. Like I was already like moving, doing things as a youth. When I got released, everyone's kind of waiting for my cue. Like, like what's, what's the word? What's going on? Like, what are we going to do now? You know, cause I was like a huge influence in my neighborhood before I left. So then when I came back, I was like, all right, let me see what's up. And then when I'm trying to think I'm going to turn it on again, then, you know, I started seeing things that like, I'm on so much conditions. So any little thing. Like your parole conditions? It was first, it was one hour a day. Then I just asked him like, yo, how am I supposed to find a job? Like, you know, and my conditions I have to be in school or work, you know, and I'm going to parole with all these limitations. I was like, I just expected, I'm just going to reoffend. And I'm like, nah, man, like I need better for myself. Like, I know that I can do better. And then I basically, it was COVID and everyone's complaining about quarantine. And I'm like, well, you guys know about lockdown, quarantine, like this ain't nothing like this is soft. Like, you know, you guys have the bathroom. Like when I first came out of jail, I didn't know if I could shower naked. I was like, where are my boxers? You know, like it was still certain things I had to get out of my head, you know? So it's like when it was a lockdown and they put a yellow tape on the basketball court, which besides like 12 years ago, we got the Raptors to rebuild the court, my little brother, by sending them an email and showing them the conditions were terrible. Like, so basically in doing that now, I was like, this is my court. So they put yellow tape on it. I'm like, yo, so with the jail, the jail workouts that I was already doing on the range, because like I was on like a gang range and the whole gang has to work out like an army, like a unit, and they're preparing for battle, you know? So basically when I came out, I don't have no weights. I don't have no equipment. I'm doing all the jail routine workouts. And then it started as like two people. And then eventually I seen like five people and then 10 people, then 15 people consistently every single day. Because at this time, like I just have these few hours I can come outside. With me trying to keep the jail routine going, it's like this started because we didn't need anything fancy. We just needed each other to come out and motivate each other. And then when I seen that actually is like the law of attraction, like doors started opening up. People started hitting me up. Everyone wants to be a part of it, you know? And like I seen people from that are professional basketball players come out and do workshops with the youth, how to dribble, how to do this, you know, certain people from podcasts and everyone's like, oh, we want you on our podcast. We want to talk about this. So it was like all of a sudden everyone was intrigued by the positivity that I brought. When before, when I was just doing my negativity, like nobody really cared. Nobody was, I was like, um, like a very dark person, you know, like I was not talkative at all. I would never share my story back in the days. I was silent, mute, you know, right to remain silent all day. Now I started opening up because I realized how powerful, like my story and my message could be. There are some youth that are 14 that are blicked up right now and they don't care about what I have to say. They're going to call me washed up. I'm a unk. They'll even say, this is snitching, talking to you on a podcast. They would consider that as like dry snitching or something, you know? But I'm just trying to, I would never snitch. Like I come from the streets. So this is just me trying to use my lived experience to show people, like, you know, for example, when I went to jail, I started working out doing a thousand pushups a day, reading books. And like, honestly, maybe because it forces you because you have no other obligations and other things to do. So, but it's like, do you need jail to do a thousand pushups and read a book right now? No. So like, why wait till you get there to learn these lessons? If I could save you that trip from like all these things that I've been doing, you know, and like, I transformed my life to be living proof, you know, so I'm walking the walk. I could talk the talk later, but right now I'm on this journey and I feel like people just can see me lead by how I live and what I do, my actions, you know? So I had to put certain things down and say, yo, like, okay, if I'm going to do the community, I can't be like one foot in one foot out. I have to be the community or the streets. And I was like, you know what? I'm not going to be that guy. That's just like dibble and dabbling, you know? I'm like, I've been there, done that. And I'm at an age right now where I can look any gangster in the face, any bad man in the face and say, yo, I'm done with that. Like, you can't even influence me, peer pressure me, nothing. And that event. And so I definitely want to end on this note because we, we're at time, but this is so important. You run the Commitment Program. Yeah. When did you start the Commitment Program? So I started it essentially when I came out of the Mint in 2020. Okay. And that little workout program that I was doing. Right. That's... That was the catalyst for it. Yeah. And so it, that workout program draws in people from the community. Yeah. You see what kind of a leader you can be. You have a choice. You can either lead people into gang activity or you can lead people into positivity and you choose positivity and call it the Commitment Program. What is that? What does it do? Now that I have their attention. Yes. I'm like, okay, so I want to implement some other things, like some life skills, things they don't teach you in school. Like, so I was feeling really big on financial literacy, knowing your rights, and even like health and nutrition and wellness, mental health, stuff like that. So from that perspective, when I told people about knowing your rights, a lot of people are like, oh yes, we'll get Toronto police involved, this and that, you know? So I was just like, nah, man, I don't want this to be from that perspective. I have to have it from like a lawyer's perspective or something. But going back to the program, like, you know, just saying I was doing the program, people started coming out. They started getting bigger and bigger. But in the winter, it's a disconnect with the youth because we don't have an indoor space. We've been doing all this stuff outside on the basketball court. And they even tell me that I'm not allowed to do my program on the court, but I just do it because I feel passionate. Like that's my court. Like me and my brother sent the email. They responded to us. We got it made, not you guys. So I still do this with or without permission. And who does not want you running a program on the basketball courts to help steer youth in your community in a positive direction? Like, so that to me is mind blowing. You're not asking for handouts. It's not like you're starting a game on the basketball court. You are actually trying to do the opposite. It's like an anti-gang initiative. Exactly. Who does not want you doing that? So because our property is like a condo corporation, they have a condo board and the board members are all like elderly people, people that are not. So in our community, in order to join the board, you need to be an owner, a homeowner. Unfortunately, a lot of people are just renters. So like our voices are never heard as renters. Well, my father is a homeowner, but he used to be part of the property management before the new owners came in. So they don't like my dad because my dad used to do all this like positive stuff for the community, which is probably where I get it from. Right. So it's like now they don't like my dad. It's a new management. They look at us like we're thugs, like this is going to lower the property value. So they don't even want me to post flyers, all these things. Like I still post my flyers. I still go there now. I'm trying to do things more correctly. Right. So like there's they're going to give me pushback. I need this permit. I need this. OK, I get this because for years I've been telling them I'm not a kid. I'm a grown man. Like they always going to treat us like we're kids, like we don't know nothing. But I'm like, listen, I'm not a little kid. I'm a grown man and I'm doing this with or without your help. So don't let me get the city involved, because now the city is involved. And I've been trying to send emails with this city attached and everything. They never responded to the point where, you know, the city started getting more involved and we finally got a community space. So they've granted us a space now with the help from like another major neighborhood. So they're reaching their funds out to our neighborhood, our smaller neighborhood, which shows you like, you know, some people are just going to focus on them and their neighborhood, but other areas and the government will like have us all like labeled in different grids and different sections. So we all get different supports. So there is funding and support for our neighborhood, but the city was just unaware because we don't have a community structure in place to like express that, you know. So now we've come together as a resident-led group to run the commitment program and our other programs. We also do like groceries for like elderly people during the winter, actually all year long. But in the winter, we're out there. We didn't have a space. We just set up tables and people line up and sometimes we take boxes to people's homes because they can't walk outside. They're like old. So like. And this part, this is part of what you are, this is your initiative that you're describing. So it's me and other community members. So we've been operating without funding, without any help, without even a space. So this just goes to show you where our heart is and our intentions are. Like for me, it's like 36 years old, born and raised. It's like the love for my community. It's like in my genetics, like, you know, I have like a passion for it and I could have been fighting that passion in the streets. Like, you know, I could have been like, yo, this is my block a different way, you know, but I was like, no, this is my community a different way. Like I'm, as long as I'm here, I want to be able to provide things for the kids to do and outlets for them to express themselves and to try different avenues because they probably didn't know they liked something because they just never tried it. Like for example, yesterday we did a basketball painting for the youth with the help from Rebecca and also my boy Jason came through and he did tie dye t-shirts. So we had like a whole arts and crafts day and all the kids came out and it was just like a beautiful vibe. But those same youth that I'm trying to target, they didn't come out because they feel a little too cool. So like, you know, it's like to get the youth involved takes work and it takes me to show up and be there in person. And for me as an adult, I have to pay bills. I got to work. I got, I'm busy. My schedule is so busy. So like, I only have, I have to carve out my schedule to be there in person for these youths to even build a relationship with them, you know? So I'm doing this with or without payment just because like my heart is like pulling me to do these things, you know? It's really amazing because like you said, you know, throughout this interview, like you easily could have gone another way and you were involved so far deep in another way and you decided to make this turn and now you're giving back to your community in ways that you didn't have access to, you know? And perhaps someone, if someone was able to give you at 14 what you're trying to give your community today, maybe you would not have ended up in jail. You wouldn't have that criminal record that is preventing you from, you know, accessing different sources of employment now or different income that you could have been raising otherwise. And that's incredible. Most people don't do that and don't come back to the community and don't try to help others. And not, you know, for not wanting to help others or see other people succeed, but they're so focused on themselves and needing to get out, needing to improve their own space. Incredible, incredible story, incredible journey. I really love what you're doing and what you stand for. And as you know, I will be there to do your workshop on Know Your Rights and I'm really excited to be able to do that and help you help your community. Exactly. Like you said, like, I wish I had that when I was 14. Yes. You know, like when I was 14, didn't really have nothing but, you know, the LCBO or the bear store, right? Yes. These are coping mechanisms. These are things that taught us. So at the end of the day, even the youth, like I hope that when they see me on a podcast, they see like the passion behind it. Because I think right now there's still a disconnect because I'm so much older than them. So now they might look at me like I'm a unk, right? But I'm trying to tell them no, man, I'm just like an OG. Like, I'm just like you guys. But at the end of the day, you know, like, I didn't have this stuff growing up and maybe they're just walking into it and they don't know, like, how, like, blessed they are. So they they just don't feel that need. But like, hopefully, maybe this podcast or something, they hear the story, they hear the backstory, they could appreciate it, you know, because I've been doing this stuff in the community, like for so many years, it's going to be my 13th annual basketball tournament. Wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. So shout out to my neighborhood village, you know, and for all the people that's locked up, you know, I have a lot of people locked up right now, wrongfully accused, all that stuff. But hopefully, you know, we're going to get them out, you know. I hope you get them out. I hope they make the changes they want to be living the life that they actually want to be living. And I hope they also give back the way that you've been giving back because that's what it's going to take to make changes on a grander scale. Yeah. So Jeremy, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to come out on this podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Another episode of Who Judges the Judge.