From Code Search to AI Agents: Inside Sourcegraph's Transformation with CTO Beyang Liu

This is the first time in computer science I can think of where we've actually advocated like correctness and logic to us, right? Like in the past, it was a resource, right? So maybe the performance is different, maybe the availability is different, but like, whatever I put in, I'm gonna get back out, but now we're like, figure out this problem for me. You talk to some devs and they're like, you know, I've never been more productive, but coding isn't fun anymore. That's one of the things that we're trying to solve for it. It's like amazing new technology, it feels like magic. Never experienced anything like this before my life. Then the narrative that was fun was like, this thing will just, you know, run our lives for us, or it's gonna kill us all. Total annihilation, like, terminator. And there's just like absolutely no danger that like this thing's gonna, you know, acquire a mind of its own and like try to reach out because this will kill you. If you use this every day, right? This idea that this thing could take over the world is funny. Exactly, that's right. That narrative, I think, is largely been dispelled within our circles. But I think that it's sort of like taking on a life of its own in other circles and it's made its way to some of the halls of policy making in the US. Is the old adage of like, you know, do you blame it on ignorance or malice? I honestly don't know, but it is clearly like nonsensical and I think very much in the national interests to be still telling this story. The United States invented the AI revolution. We built the chips, trained the frontier models, and created the entire ecosystem. But right now, if you're a startup building AI products, you're probably writing your code on Chinese models. Today's guest is Biong Liu, one of the co-founders of SourceGrab. Biong is joined by A16Z's Martín Casado and Guido Abenzeller to talk about the shift he's seeing on the front lines of software development today. SourceGrab's coding agent, which is hit number one on the benchmark for merge pulled requests, runs on open source models. Many of them are Chinese, not because of ideology, but because they work better for what the company needs. Here's the tension. Biong's study machine learning under Daffy Kohler at Stanford. He's been to decade building developer tools. He knows the technology cold. And his view is that we're sleepwalking into a dependency problem. Not because Chinese models are dangerous, but because American policy has made it nearly impossible to compete in open source AI. We dig into why the Terminator narrative around AI safety might be our biggest strategic mistake, whether it's already too late to catch up, and what happens when the atomic unit of software isn't a function anymore, but it's stochastic subroutine you can't fully control. Biong, thanks for coming and joining me. So the topic today is AI and coding, but I mean, I would say you're one of the world's experts on this. And so we would love to kind of do a deep dive and kind of how you view the problem, how you view the solution, of course, your co-founders, CTO, SourceGrab. And so we'll talk a bit about that as well. Of course we've got Guido, thanks for being here. And so maybe just to start, we can do a bit of a background on you, and then we'll just kind of dig into details. Yeah, so background, I've been working on DevTools for more than the past decade of my life. I started SourceGrab about 10 plus years ago, brought the world's first kind of like production legit code search engine to market, and pushed that to, I think, a good portion of the Fortune 500. Part of that, I was a developer at Palantir, and I guess now it's like the early days, right? And that's where I met my co-founder Quinn, and we're working on data analysis offer, and a lot of large enterprise code bases that we're kind of like drop shipped into, and realized that there was a big need for a better tooling, for understanding massive code bases. And then before that, I guess relevant now is I actually did machine learning as a concentration was doing my studies. So it did some computer vision research. Yeah, under Daphne Culler at the-- I didn't know that it's an AI guy. Yeah, the OG AI. Dawson Angler, Eilers Stopper. I thought you were a system, you talked like a systems guy. Yeah, yeah. For me, like this whole phenomenon of like LM's and coding, it's almost like a homecoming of sorts, 'cause I really-- I didn't know that, that's awesome. Yeah, definitely taught me as well, so. She's a great teacher. Yeah, that's amazing. I gotta say that was like the one class, I was so happy I calmed out of. If I didn't pass the comp, I thought it would defeat me here. I think I failed the comp too many times. I had to spend it. I was the TA for that class, actually. 228. 228. Yeah, that's right, that's what it was. Yeah, yeah, so cool. Great. So, sourcecraft started code search, navigation, but now you've been making ways with AMP, which is like an agent, would we call it? So maybe talk to a little bit about what you've been working on, maybe pre-AI and now, just to level set. Yeah, so kind of like the history of the company is we're really built to make coding a lot more efficient inside large organizations, and to make the practice of actually like building software way more accessible, primarily to professional software engineers, but I think our eventual vision was always to expand the franchise. And we started by tackling like the key problem, which is enabling humans to understand code, because if you've ever worked inside a large code base, you know that that probably takes anywhere from 80 to 99% of the time, and then the remainder is when you actually understand the problem well enough to actually write the code. So that's where we kind of like built up our domain expertise, and then when LM sort of matured, there's something that we were always kind of like monitoring in the background minds, originally looked at LM's and embeddings as a way to enhance the ranking signals that we're incorporating into our search engine, and then when things really hit their stride with Chatchet PT and all that, it was fairly obvious to us that there was a big opportunity to combine LM's, which were this amazing technology with a lot of the stuff that we built up to that point. And then I guess to round that out, finally, our latest product is this coding agent called AMP. What's interesting about AMP? I don't know, I don't know. It's interesting about AMP, because it's kind of viewed as like a very sophisticated kind of opinionated view on agents. Do you share that or is that just kind of the outside? I would say there's certain things that we're doing that I think are quite unique. It was the top recently on one of these benchmarks, right? Yeah, I think there's like some start-up out there that compares pull request merge rates or something. We would manage to claim the top spot. It's awesome. Yeah, it was very gratifying to see. But again, like I would say that I think we're opinionated on some parts of our philosophy building agents, and my own take is I think a lot of these opinions will soon become widespread. But there's other elements of what we're doing, which are like people like to read in a lot to AI these days. And sometimes it's just like, look, we actually did something very simple here. It yielded good results, and we shipped that, and it works very well. So I think your focus is really on large code bases. How is that structurally different from, you know, me coding my little home room 201? Yeah, so it's funny you mentioned that. Like, historically, the company's focus has really been on large code bases. But with AMP, we decided to build it almost completely separate from the existing code. And the reason for that was, one, we built AMP. AMP is really at this point, like seven, eight months old. So we started AMP in around like February, March this year. And that was right at the wave of this new type of LM hitting the world, the like agentic tool use LM. Yeah, finally worked. Yeah, finally worked, right? Like after so many demo videos, finally, there was a model that could actually do robust tool calling and compose that with reasoning. And original tech was like, okay, let's build this into some existing things that we created. But the more we started playing with the technology, the more we sort of came to the conclusion that this was actually truly disruptive. And we should actually start from first principles to see, you know, build the agent from the ground up and see what tools we really need. So what we've arrived at is the coding agent, which works, I think, very well in large code bases because again, we push this to a lot of our customers, but it's also great for like hobby coding. Like I spun my dad up recently on it. And he's been using it to create these like iPad games for our kid because, you know, typically Asian dad trying to teach him math, right? I want to teach him arithmetic and what. And so my dad who's never written a single line of code in his life is able to just like, hey, make a simple game that has him count the numbers. And then if he gets it right, the little rocket ship blasts off. So it's kind of interesting. It's a really interesting time to be building because even if you're building for professional developers, as we are, a lot of the technology ends up being just kind of widely accessible. This is the new parenting. Your job as a parent is not to write the games for you. Yeah, it's a pro game. And the ones you made of the curriculum, I was supposed to like, yeah, I love it. And another thing that's been kind of made kind of splash is you've recently decided to go to an advertisement based model. So like, yeah, on one hand, so I've got this distance internally, which is on one hand. I'm like, this is the boutique. Yeah, sophisticated. On the other hand, I'm like, and it's also for everybody with ads. And so like, how do you kind of reconcile? It's really funny, because I think we we had this sort of reputation for being like the primo agent. It's like super intelligent one. But we never had like flat rate pricing model. We did peer usage based pricing. And that also meant that there was never any incentive to switch to a cheaper model for users. So our attack was like, the most intelligence and you just pay for the inference cost. But as we built more and more, we kind of realized there's sort of this official frontier that you can draw this two by two grid. And one axis is intelligence, but the other axis is latency. And there's multiple interest points along this tradeoff curve. It's not just that having the smartest model makes your experience the best. The smartest model often tends to be a significant amount slower than other models on the market. And so we felt that there was like an opportunity for us to create like a faster top level agent that couldn't do as complex of coding tasks. But it could do these like targeted edits. And when we started to play around with these small fast models, we realized that, hey, actually, the inference cost are significantly lower. And that got us thinking like going back to folks like my dad, right? Like he's just doing this stuff on the side. He doesn't want to spend hundreds of dollars per month to create these kind of like simple games or like, hmm, maybe there's like a model here. I think it started as a joke. So I was like, we should just do ads and see how that works. And everyone was like, no, that'll never work. But then it just kind of kept coming back up. And at one point, we're like, all right, let's just try it and see how it works. And we lost it. And it's been growing very quickly since then. Can I dig philosophical into this just a little bit? So I had a conversation with somebody that works on Cloud Code, which is a very successful CLI tool. And this person is like, you know, what we've done over time is we've literally just removed, you know, stuff between the user and the model. Like that's it. Like that's like kind of like the way that we improve things are we just like do less and let the model do more. And so I guess that makes, you know, it's kind of intellectually or intuitively interesting. Yeah. It kind of makes sense. But on the other hand, it seems expensive. Like here is this state-of-the-art model that costs a billion dollars to train. Yeah. And like now it's just the user and the model. And so it's almost like that statement is almost contrary to an advertisement-based model or like what you're talking about, like, you know, like a fast model or smaller models. So like, are we seeing two parallel paths in the industry? I so there's definitely, you can, there's definitely different like working styles, right? Like depending on the task or maybe depending on the person, you talk to people using coding agents. And some of them are like, I just want to write a paragraph long prompt and then have the agent go figure it out. I want to come back to something that's like mostly working. And then there's other people who say like, actually, I don't want to do that because half the time I myself don't have a clear idea of what I want yet. The creative process is sort of one where you kind of like figure out what the software looks like as you go along. And sometimes it's the same person saying both things, right? Like, when I go, there's some features where it's like an implement billing where I'm like, okay, I know exactly what protocols we need to support and the striping integration. I know what feedback loops we need to hit. Then it's like, okay, big prompt agent go at it. But then there's other other types of development where it's like, you know, I want to build a new a brand new feature. We just shipped this code review panel in our editor extension. And that was a kind of like situation where I was like, I don't actually know what this review experience should look like because it's not me reviewing other people's codes, me reviewing agents code, which is like a new workflow. And for that, I kind of did want like a more interactive back and forth interaction between me and the agent. So I don't think it's necessarily like these two things don't have to be completely separate products, but they are distinct working modalities. Yeah, that's okay. We're going to put it. How do you think about the difference between like using somebody else's model, like one of the subtle labs versus yeah, building your own model versus, you know, using open source model like. Yeah. How does that fit in your philosophy? Yeah. So I would say our philosophy is is not model centric. It's more agent centric. So we view the model as an implementation detail. Yeah, I don't know what that means. Okay, so let me explain. So like when you're interacting with an agent, yeah. At the end of the day, you care about how that agent is going to respond to your inputs, you know, what tools it's going to use, what sort of trajectories it's going to take, what sort of thinking it does. A lot of that goes back to the model, but it's not solely dependent on the model. There's a lot of other things that can influence how an agent behaves. There's the system prompt. There's a set of tools that you give it. There's a tooling environment. There's a tool descriptions. There's a sort of instructions that you give it for connecting to feedback loops. And with the same model with wildly different like tool descriptions and system prompts, you actually get like, you know, completely different behaviors out of that model. Is that true in both directions? Like with the same prompts and two completely different models would get different behaviors? Oh, for sure. For sure. It's like if you have like an agent harness, like a set of tool descriptions and you swap out the model, then there's no guarantee that that thing is going to work well with the model that you swapped in now. And so what we view as like the kind of atomic, composable unit is not the model. It's this thing called the agent, which is essentially this contract of like user puts text in and gets certain behaviors out. And that agent is really a product of both the model plus all these other things that I just listed. And so when it comes to like figuring out what models we want to use, it's not so much like, hey, we want to use like the latest quote unquote frontier model from XYZ lab. It's really about, hey, what behavior do we want the agent to take or in some cases the sub agent? And how do we find the right model that enables that agent to do its job? So it's so hard to me. Like this is the first time in computer science I can think of where we've actually abdicated like correctness and logic to it. Like whatever, it's not logic. It's like, okay, so maybe the performance is different, maybe the availability is different, but like whatever I put in, I'm going to get back out, whether it's a database or a compute or whatever, like user like, you know, but now we're like, figure out this problem for me, right? So you're kind of abdicating like, you know, core logic and correctness. The unit test comes back with works 45% of the cases. The non-determinism is something that people struggle with a lot. But so for me, I actually do think, you know, like historically pre-AI, like when you think about computer systems, the basic unit of composability is like the function call and programming, right? So it's like when you think about your system, it's like this function calls out to these other functions and those other functions delegate to these other functions. I do think there's still an analog to that in the agent world. Like the agent is really the analog of the function, but just updated or generalized to AI. Can I just push on this? Because I mean, let's call me traditionalists. Yeah. But for me, like like computer infrastructures, compute network is storage, right? And like databases. And these are resources that are abstracted. They're like, like, so yeah, if me storage, give me network, but like the semantics, like what actually happens. Yeah, right. That's like my code. We're here. We're like figure it out for me. It's like we're advocating actual like logic and correctness. It just feels like in a way, like a little bit, you know, like in your case, for example, if you pick up, you know, let's say you're using model the 2.1 and then you go to model v2.2, like, yeah, I have wildly different answers, right? It's almost like a new instruction set or something. Yeah, you might have different answers, but I think if if you construct the agent right, you're not they're not going to be wildly different. So like for instance, we have a sub agent that's designed to search for things like uncover a relevant context. And you know, it's it is a bit of dice for all every time, right? Like it takes a slightly different trajectory might search for different things. But it's to the point now where if I want to find something in the code base, I have like 99% confidence that this thing will eventually be able to kind of like stochastically iterate to the right answer. And so in that, in that way of thinking, it's like, yeah, how it gets there might vary. But if I wanted to do a specific thing, it's liable enough that I can I can invoke it. It feels like there's kind of a backlash right now in the industry to eval. So do you view like this is an eval problem or like a runtime system problem? Yeah, so you know, my take on the evals is evals are definitely effective as a sort of like unit test or a smoke test. Because if you push a change your agent and it breaks something, you want to know, right? Like if there's like an important workflow that you're like, hey, this should work reliably well. Because if this doesn't work, then probably a lot of other things breaks. And that's a great instance where you want you want an eval that will alert you when when it goes from green to red. I think where it gets harrier is treating evals as a kind of like optimization target. Because any eval set, like what are you trying to capture if you're building an end user product at the end of the day, what you care about is the product experience. And so you construct the eval set to kind of proxy the vibes of the user using the product. And by definition, that means your eval set is always like lagging a little bit from the frontier because it takes time to distill what is a good product experience into a set of evals. And we've had multiple times in our past where we've picked a number just to take an example, like with back in the code completion days of 2023 or whatnot. We had a coding tool that would do coding autocomplete and the banner top line metric there was completion acceptance rate. Given that I suggest this change to the user, what is the likelihood they're going to accept? That seems like bulletproof, right? But actually, I think in building that, we ended up overoptimizing that to a certain extent. And any metric you choose, there's going to be a way to game it. Well, I mean, even in this one, the developer accepts it, but do they end up committing it? Yeah, all they committed it. But whatever, did the PR guys do that? There's like a subtle bug introduced or whatnot or did it get merged into Maine? Like, I mean, it just feels like, you know, you know, like, this is kind of an adjacent topic. But something that Guido and I discuss a lot is to what extent the market is Pareto efficient on the Pareto frontier? Like, if you can trade off, like, let's say, performance for cost or intelligence for costs, like, will the market kind of adopt that uniformly? Or does it just optimize only for speed or only for correctness? Like, yeah, being on the front lines, we would love, you know, your sense on this. This is a simple question. Yeah. This is a question a lot. Nobody seems to know. Like, like, is the question here, like, what matters more speed or intelligence? It's whether the Pareto frontier is what matters or if it's kind of, there's all those points on the Pareto frontier that matter, right? So you can imagine. So traditional pricing psychologists, you're the expensive one or you're the cheap one, right? And everything in the middle is called the value gap, which people don't use, right? And so originally, we're like, oh, the Pareto, like, that happens here. So either you buy the most expensive one or buy the cheapest. Yeah. Yeah. But actually, as we kind of look in the market, it actually feels like most of the frontier is pretty full. Like, like, developers are pretty sophisticated, like, you know, different, you know, there's different cost sensitivities, different price sensitivities. So yeah. So, you know, it's funny that you mentioned this like, you know, the cheap option versus like the premium option. It just so happens that AMP has two toppled agents. There's a smart agent and there's a fast agent. That's interesting. And the fast agent is the one that's ad supported, like that we can offer for free. And the smart agent is the one where we're like, okay, we're not, we will always only do usage based pricing for that because we want to keep that at a different tier of smartness. But that means said, like, I don't know, maybe there's like a third point in there that could make sense. It really just comes out of the vibes at the end of the day, like, as we use this more heavily and see the usage patterns emerge. The mid-agent. Yeah, the mid-agent. Like, I honestly, yeah. Well, if you put it that way, and then like, oh, like, yeah, the galaxy great idea is you either want, like, you know, smart or fat. Cool. So I thought, I mean, if you're open to, I'd love to dig into a bit on kind of your view on open source models. Yeah. Do you use them? Yes. Do you think that they are an important part of the ecosystem? Yeah. So we do use a variety of open source models. We use both closed source and open source models quite heavily. But the open source ones, I think, are becoming a bigger theme now for a couple of reasons. One is, you know, with an open open source or open weight model, you can post-trained them, right? Which means, like, if you have a domain-specific task, like AMP has a growing number of sub-agents that are specialized for a specific task, like contact retrieval or like extra reasoning, library fetching, those are more constrained tasks where you don't necessarily need like frontier general intelligence. If anything, you want faster, right? And so the benefit of having open weight models is you can look at the thing that you're trying to optimize for, like, what that sub-agent needs and post-trained the model to accomplish that more effectively. And the other element of open weight models that's very appealing is just the pricing aspect of it. Like, there's now more and more, like, effective open weight models that are emerging on the scene that are actually quite robust at agentic tool use. You know, the landscape has changed immensely since, like, June of this year. We've gone from, like, you know, there was really only one really good agentic tool use model to now. There's like, could you name that? I mean, it'd be great to actually. Yeah, I mean, like, so, you know, originally there was a quad, right? Like, Sonnet or Opus. That was the first agentic tool use model. And that sort of, you know, ushered in in the current agent wave. But now, you know, there's GP5. There's Kimi K2. There's Qunfreakoder, GLM. Are these open source models, like on-par or pretty close? It depends on the workload. So I would say in our evaluations for kind of like the top-level smart coding agent driver, we still tend to prefer Sonnet or GP5. But for, kind of like quick targeted edits or specific subagents, I think more and more were preferring smaller models because they have better latency characteristics. And because the complexity of the task isn't high, like you reach a ceiling, it's like, once you reach a certain level of quality, there's diminishing returns. And then you start optimizing for latency because that gets you more, you know, interactivity. What's the smallest models you can use for an effective agent? I mean, for an agent right now, it's probably still fairly large, like talking to probably like hundreds of billions of parameters for kind of like a top-level agent. But for like search agents, you could go smaller than that. And then we also have a model that does kind of like edit suggestion. So, you know, for those times where you still have to go into the code and manually edit stuff, this thing suggests the next edit that you'll make. And for that, we use a very small model, like, you know, single digit billions of parameters. So, do you train your own models? Yeah, we do. Oh well. But I would say we don't train them from scratch. No pre-training. No pre-training. No pre-training. And I'll be dumb. Yeah. At this point, it's just like, it would be fiscally irresponsible. These were special use cases. A lot of the products that we work with, let's say just outside of coding, a lot of products that we work with, you know, and just, I mean, here's this general view. Pre-training is done. Yeah. Right, paying people to create data, we've hit economic equilibrium. Right. It's like, yeah, you can keep paying people about like, you know, we're hitting diminishing returns there because you need kind of more expensive people and like, you need 10 times more data. And so at some point, you hit equilibrium. But, you know, like, there's a lot of product data out there. And there's a lot of users out there. And like, you know, the solution domain is enormous. And so you can start building smaller models. And, you know, so it's like, you know, like is that correct and be, you know, like the models that you trained, do they kind of fit in that general pattern of specific smaller models? I think that's spot on actually. It's like, the very large generalist models were great. And they still are great for experimentation because it's almost like, you know, you train this thing on all sorts of data. And it's almost like a discovery process where like the training team themselves don't quite know, you know, what behaviors might emerge. But once you map those to specific workloads, specific agents that you want to build, then you have a much clearer target. And, you know, it's widely known that like a lot of the model labs do this now behind the scenes. Like they might expose an API that's like, you know, one model behind the scenes, they're adding to, you know, smaller models. And you can also do that at the application layer. Like if you have an agent architecture like we do, there's all sorts of specialized tasks. Like we've broken down the process of like software creation to various tasks, like context fetching or, you know, debugging or things like that. And once you have a specialized agent for each, then you take a look at, you know, what the agent needs to succeed. And you try to get the model as small as possible while still maintaining the requisite quality bar. So it's not just a Pareto frontier of quality versus cost, but there's also multiple graphs. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically her agent. Like every agent maps to a workflow. Yeah. It's emulating some workflow that, you know, maybe approximately maps to something that a human used to do. Maybe it doesn't, but it's like a, it's a subroutine. This is why I go back to like the, the, the function and algae. And so for any given agent, subroutine where you abdicate the logic. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a stochastic subroutine. I mean, now we have parameters like how much reasoning do you want? So it's a tunable. Yeah. How helpful do you want to make this? What's your budget? Yeah. But there's like a mini Pareto frontier for each of these tasks. And then the optimal point along that frontier is different for for each task. So I actually want to dig into, you know, like, like the open source models, the implications. I mean, I know that you've got a pinch of that. We've got a pinion. Yep. It's an interesting topic. But before we do that, so in 10 years, are we using an idea or are we using agents on a CLI? What happens to software engineering? In 10 years, simple question. Okay. So I mean, listen, I hear like, yeah, the people that listen to the ice for quite a while, I do have a ton of things like the world expert on this question. So here's my take. Like, I don't think it, it's not going to be an idea that looks like any idea that exists today. And it's not going to be like a terminal that looks like any terminal that exists today. My view is that, and I don't think this is like a particularly unique view. It's just that, you know, the effect of AI on every single knowledge domain, including coding, is that it's just going to enable the human to level up, right? So the job that you do already like that, like my job has changed so much in the past year. Like, I think about all the kind of like a toilsome, like line by line editing that I did like a year ago today, it seems like completely foreign. I like, honestly, don't think I could go back at this point. Now, when I'm doing stuff, it's more at the level of like telling the agent to make the specific edits or execute like a specific plan. And I'm really playing the role more of like an orchestrator. Now and then you still have to like pop in and and make some manual edits when it gets stuck. But increasingly, like, like I would say, like by by sheer like lines of code volume, probably more than 90% of the code that I write these days is through through AMP. And I think it's only a higher and higher level over time. And so when we think about like the interface that a human will interact with primarily, I think the future looks like something that allows you to orchestrate the the job of multiple agents. And crucially, something that allows you as the human to understand the essentials of what these agents are, outputting. And I actually think that's probably the limiting bottleneck today. Of course, yeah, comprehensive. It's like the human comprehension just on like, yeah, does it back to like my understanding of like exactly problem needs, even like a business size. Because there are fundamental trade-offs in the system. Yes, but I think you can't wish those away. You can't wish them away. And the human is the bottleneck, but I think the human is still essential and will still remain essential 10 years from now in software engineering, because it's fundamentally a creative process. No, no, that's right. I mean, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Like a human has in their head of what they want to accomplish. And only the human has that in their head. And so like often, that's going to require choosing a point between two trade-offs, right? Like whatever that is. And so like there has to be some way that this articulation happens. Yes. And when you talk to like practitioners today, like a lot of them are very, it's like bittersweet. Because like on the one hand, it's like, oh my god, like agents, they're writing all this code and they're actually pretty good at it. On the other hand, it's like, oh, I'm spending like 90% of my time like essentially doing code review now. Which is, you know, there's like the one one and 100 dev that you talk to that says, like, I really love code review. The rest of us are like, oh man, it's like such a drag. Well becoming middle managers of coding. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you talk to some devs and they're like, you know, I've never been more productive, but coding isn't fun anymore. And so, you know, that's one of the things that we're trying to solve for us. The elegance is gone. It's not all looking at the limitations. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's that. But also it's just like the task of like reviewing code, I think is, is a slog and like classical code review interfaces are just not that good. Like, I think they were never that good. Yeah. But it wasn't like blindly obvious because the the rate at which like lines of code were shipping was, it's a simple example. Right. Today, if I review code from premise, any coding agent out there, typically it's just like file by file, by file, by file. Yeah. Yeah. Like grouping this by task or something like that or explaining it. A couple of arrows with little buckles. Yeah. Exactly. There's a, there's a, you are literally like, there's so much low hanging. So we launched a review panel in our editor extension last week. That's, it doesn't get all the way there, but I think it's the first step. And it's already like, it's way better than like an existing like code host review tool. Like it's, it's bot mind-boggling to me that like we live in age where like you can literally have a robot like, you know, one shot, a very large change. And then you pop over to like, you know, get a PRs and you're clicking, you know, expand-hunk, expand-hunk, expand-hunk, no code intelligence. In the diagrams. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it just feels like, you know, it's like we have, we have like a Ferrari engine. But then part of our workflow still requires like strapping it to this like horse and buggy style thing. So anyways. Yeah. So it's like a kind of microchip and then I give you an oscilloscope. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. All right. So listen, we're, we're moving on on time here. So I actually want to get more to the policy side because I do think like listen, a lot of the way this goes is the way the model goes. Yep. The open source ecosystem, we see it all over the place. So not not even talking about a source trap, but I would say if a company walks in now, that's a product company that's, that's decided that they need to push chain their own models, it's it's going to be on an open source model. Yep. And more and more of these are Chinese models. Yep. And so you mentioned that you do use open source models and Chinese models. So like, how do you think about that as far as like A, maybe just like the implications of dependency and then B, what does this mean? Yeah. Maybe more holistically with the United States and the ecosystem. Yeah. So like first off, like in terms of our production setup, like every model that we hit is hosted on American servers. So from like an information security point of view, I think this is like best practice across the industry. It's like you don't hit models that are hosted in China or yeah. So like from from that part, it's, it's fine. I would say though, if you take a step back, it is fairly concerning because my view is that as the model landscape evolves, you're going to start to see a flattening in terms of model capabilities, right? Like there's going to be a healthy competition with the model layer and there's going to be a number of options for choosing a model at, you know, a given point in the prater frontier. And with that flattening, there's a strong incentive for application builders to, you know, at a given capability level, use the one that's that's open for the reasons stated before. And because the most capable open weight models right now are of Chinese origin, it essentially means that like application builders around the world are choosing to post train on on top of these models. And so if if the US open weight ecosystem doesn't catch up, we're kind of in danger of, you know, the world migrating to a world where most systems are heavily dependent on models of Chinese origin. Do we have competitive US open source models right now? I mean, in any competitive non-Chinese, if you look at Europe, you know, we've sampled like a good portion of the model landscape because again, like we have all these sub-agents and agents we want to find the best ones for the job. And frankly, like the ones that we find most effective at agent workloads, they're almost all, I would say they are all of Chinese origin right now. And that's not to say that like there haven't been like good efforts by American companies, it's just that, you know, when you plop those into like an agentic application, you know, the tool use isn't quite robust enough, it's not quite there yet. Do you think this is a result of policy or funding or like, I think probably all of the above. I mean, the easy answer is is like, yes, you know, it's a regulatory thing this and that, I just don't know how true that is. I mean, it just turns out it's very sophisticated, like, you know, so it is interesting. Like it's like, you know, the AI revolution was was basically like born and created in the West, right. And I think yeah, down the street. And the US still holds a lead in basically like every part of the stack, you know, whether it's like chips or, you know, frontier intelligence, like basically every place except open-weight models. I guess like that's the manufacturing aspect of it. But, you know, from where I stand, it's like, you know, if you go back to the quantum early days of the AI revolution, back to, you know, 2022 or so, I feel like the narrative that was told, that was like the dominant narrative, was this one of like, AGI at that point, where it was kind of like this, it's like, amazing new technology, it feels like magic, right? Like, it never experienced anything like this before my life. And then the narrative that was spun was like, hey, AGI is nine. What does AGI mean? Well, either one, it's like Utopia, all our problems are solved. This thing will just, you know, run our lives for us, or it's going to kill us all. Total annihilation, like Terminator, a silo com. I love the biology, the biology of this. He's like, there's this very Abrahamic view of it, either like God or the devil, right? And then he's like, I'm Hindu. You've got a bunch of God. So I'm like, appreciate a summer. Yeah. And I've chosen the Hindu view of this. Yeah, arguably that view of the model landscape was the right one. In Reptorspect. And I think it's a time like people like, like using these models directly, kind of realize this, right? It's like, you use the models. They can, they can emulate intelligence of a certain kind, but it's like mostly pattern matching. And there's just like, absolutely no danger that like this thing's going to, you know, acquire a mind of its own and like try to reach out of the computer and kill you. There's an idea that this thing could take over the world. Yeah. Exactly. So like, and then now if you talk to practitioners, like anyone who's building it, and increasingly, anyone who's using it, right? Because like now, you know, chat to BT has been out for like three some years, and everyone, and their mom has used it, like people kind of understand what the limitations are. So like that narrative, I think, is, uh, is largely been dispelled within, uh, within our circles. But I think that it's, it's sort of like taking on a life of its own in, in other circles. And it's made its way to some of the halls of policymaking in the US. I mean, it's part of the probably that not every policy maker is using LM state today to put it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, you know, there's the old adage of like, you know, do you blame it on, uh, you know, ignorance or, or I honestly don't know, like it's a black box, but it is like, uh, it is clearly like nonsensical, and I think very much in the, the, the national interests to be still telling this story because it, one, it, it, it leads to kind of like over emphasis on, on like the model as the end all be all of, of, AI, where in reality, it's like pushing this, pushing the models into like all these different application areas where like the rubber meets the road and things become musical. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but then also like when you're, when you think about making laws and regulations for this sort of stuff, if, you know, you've been sold on this sort of like terminator style narrative, um, that's going to put you in a very different mindset with respect to how much risk tolerance you're willing to take on, how much innovation you're going to allow in the ecosystem and your tolerance for, uh, open sourcing, uh, model weights. So, um, you know, you use a bunch of open source models. And there's a question that we actually debate quite a bit, which is, assume the policy environment exists as it is, even with like infinite funding and infinite talent, could you still actually build competitive models or like now are we at a place that like we're just out of just advantage just because the like is it, is it, is it too late to actually assume that we can do it without actually changing policy? Like, like build, uh, adequate open, open way models. Or, like, excuse me, exactly, I don't know why, um, opening, I released the open source models the way they did. Um, but it seems like they were very, very sensitive to a data was in them. And I presume this is, you know, concern around copyright. I don't know the answer to this. I'm just assuming that. Interesting. We haven't seen something come out of meta in quite a while. Yeah. Like, are there even any open source model, you know, so like, like, it's just very unusual for the United States not to do this. And like, efforts that have done it have seemed to be like handicapped in one way. And so like, there's one view of the world that like, this isn't a tech problem. It isn't a money problem. We're already in the overhang of policy. Like, that's one view. And so like, I guess my specific question is, do you think that is the case? Or do you think we've just kind of, you know, haven't, haven't kind of gotten to it yet? And we're going to come up with open source models. You know, I honestly don't know. Like, I don't, I don't have like, inside knowledge of what goes on inside a lot of these research organizations. But it says it's super remarkable that like, the river of the US, you know, we were the first with open source models. We have Lama 3. And now he's like, like, listen, you're, you're using Chinese models. Yeah. Like, where are the US models? And then they've, you know, and they, why aren't they there? And I guess my best guess, I mean, again, you both can gut check me on this. It's like, actually, there's like, like, all of the rhetoric around, like, developed reliability, even though it didn't happen, but there's rhetoric around it. All the policy stuff, all the copyright stuff, all the lawsuits. My guess is that, you know, a lot of these folks are gun shy. Yeah. I think that could very well be the case. And I think that the way that the regulatory landscape is evolving doesn't help at all as well. Because, you know, there was an effort earlier this year to have kind of like a federal set of standards for AI model layer regulation, but that I think fell apart. And so now we're kind of, like, slow walking, some case fast walking towards this like patchwork quilt of state by state regulations. That's not because of the state regulation rights in that applies to anybody making a model available in the particular states. And theory, it's what one state, every state tries to drive policy for all the United States. It's very vaguely worded. And it leaves a lot of room for interpretation, which is never good, I think, for a lot of that has been litigated either, right? So it's, yeah. It massively increases complexity. I think for a small startup to build an open way to talk about this point is extremely hard. You know what it is? Who wants to take that risk? It reminds me, like, back in the day when we're, we're like looking at GDPR compliance. When that was the first thing. And like I was talking with like our legal team and external counsel and trying to like read the text of that regulation and figure out like, oh, you know, is this thing, you know, technically in violation? It seems kind of high level. And the answer that I got was like, look, honestly, these are underspecified. And it's really, like, it's going to come down to some decision maker within, you know, that, that bureaucracy. And they're going to make a judgment call. And hopefully they lean towards going after, you know, the bigger fish in the pond before they, they come after you. So, you know, paradoxically, this is the greatest case you could have ever given to the large social networking giants. So the only ones that actually could have the legal teams and the policy teams and advocacy stuff. And we saw this up close as investors were like, as soon as these things came up, it basically infringed the incumbents. Yeah. We could comply. Last quick topic. If, you know, if you did have like some recommendation on like how we should think about policy going forward and aid in, you know, open source efforts for the United States. Yeah. What would you guys do as much as possible to ensure a dynamic and competitive AI ecosystem within the US? I mean, the best thing that we can do, I mean, we're America. Like the best thing we can do is, is to take a step back and let the free market function. And so to that end, like ensuring there's kind of like a standard, like, you know, nationwide set of regulations that's, you know, clear and, you know, like well specified to be going after like specific applications and application areas rather than, you know, like general, you know, existential risk at the model layer, that would be good. And then, too, just ensuring that there's like competition at the model layer, avoiding any sort of like anti-competitive behavior, regulatory lock. Yeah, regulatory lock in that sort of thing. You know, essentially like, you know, don't let the like internet explorer versus net scape thing play out the way it did in like internet 1.0 with like the AI ecosystem. Yeah, we're very, very lucky that actually academia and the broad industry ended up airing on the side of openness. Let's hope this happens this time too. Yeah. Thanks for listening to this episode of the A16z podcast. If you like this episode, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, leave us a rating or review and share it with your friends and family. For more episodes, go to YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. Follow us on X, A16z, and subscribe to our substack at a16z.substack.com. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode. As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only. It should not be taken as legal business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any A16z fund. Please note that A16z and its affiliates may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in this podcast. For more details, including a link to our investments, please see a16z.com/disclosures. [Music]