Ep 75: The Energy Grid with Kristina Skierka (Power for All)

All right, Definers, welcome to Episode 75 of Sustainability Defined, where Jay and I are here still defining sustainability, one concept and one bad joke at a time. And today we are talking about the energy grid for Episode 75. We did it, Jay, 75. It's getting up there. We're three quarters of the way there, Scott. Another hundred, maybe. At least the celebratory centennial, you know. Fair enough. So, Jay, what are we going to talk about in this outline? All right. So we are going to ask, what is an electric grid? How does the electric grid work? What does the U.S. grid look like? How do the conditions of electrical grids vary around the world? What are some limitations of a typical electric grid? What trends are emerging to help improve grid sustainability and resiliency? And then we will segue into an interview with Christina Skierka, CEO at Power for All. So full lineup, Scott, start us off. What is an electric grid? So, Jay, let's start out at a high level, you know, as high as those overhead transmission lines we'll talk about in a bit. So once electricity is generated, that electricity needs to get to the end user. So the United States Energy Information Administration, or the EIA, states that the grid is simply the system that connects energy producers to energy consumers. These grids can range in size and in complexity and contain the substations, transformers, and power lines that energize our homes, businesses, and everyday lives. Substations, transformers, what's that? We'll get into it. Hang with us. Now, as you can imagine, these grids, they're complex, they're interconnected. They can be set up in many different ways, depending on how they are being used, but typically there are four key sections to these systems, generation, transmission, distribution, and consumer use. We're going to get there. Okay. And before we go any further, listeners, I know you're thinking it, quick side fact, while living quote off the grid is slang term these days for being generally disconnected, the term got its origins in the late 1970s to mean not connected to or served by publicly or privately managed utilities like electricity and water. So if you're listening to this episode, odds are you are not off the grid in either sense. So you're welcome. So Scott, how does an electric grid actually work? So Jay, let's shed some light powered by the grid, perhaps on how these grids actually work with a quick walkthrough of those four key stations I was talking about. So number one, generation, and it's here where the systems work to convert primary energy sources like coal, wind, or nuclear into electrical energy. This process is completed by use of a generator, hence the name of this phase generation. There's a lot that goes on within these respective power sources. So we're not going to get into a bunch of detail here, but the key step is that primary energy sources convert mechanical energy into electrical energy, what we call electricity. The system of transporting this electrical energy is what we often refer to as the grid itself. So that makes this next step transmission super critical. Electrical transmission in short is the process of delivering generated electricity to the distributor. We'll talk about distribution next, but let's talk transmission a little bit more. It typically takes place over long distances by the power lines that we often see running through our communities. This step is really important to the process as power sources are typically located further away from populated areas like cities due to the lack of land availability and the size of these operations. So this transportation of energy is needed to get the electricity to the end user. I feel like Jay still, when I see power plants, I'm like, Oh, a power plant. Cool. I like never see those. I don't know about you. Totally. Yeah. Okay. So during transmission, electricity leaves the power source through a transmission station. This is where the energy is quote stepped up by a transformer, meaning the voltage of the electricity is increased. So the transformer, it's a critical part of the electric grid because that change in voltage, it helps the generated electricity travel long distances efficiently with minimal losses of the power generated. Transformers do not generate electricity. They simply transfer power from various currents and increase or decrease the voltage to allow for transmission. It occurs to me, Scott, that, that Michael Bay's got a different definition for transformers, a more high budget one, perhaps, although the grid is expensive, but the one thing to know with that transmission, like the, my understanding is the longer the electricity is transported, the more is lost. So it's good to have energy sources near where it's being used. But like you just said, oftentimes that's not the case. So there's three types of power lines that are used within this process. Overhead lines, underground lines, and sub-transmission lines. Overhead lines are often high voltage lines and are responsible for long distance transmission of electricity. The voltage here needs to be really high to support long distance travel. Similarly, underground lines, they can be used to transport long distances or even underwater. They're used when above ground lines aren't possible or preferable. You know, sometimes you don't want them in your line of sight. Now the last line type is sub-transmission. It carries lower voltages of electricity to distribution stations. And Scott, this is like a random real estate development thing, but typically it's much cheaper to do power lines over ground. I would think. Yeah. But when you're going in to do what we call like urban infill developments where you're, you know, taking like an existing piece of land and putting something new on it, oftentimes they get in the way. So that's when people usually have the financial incentive to actually put them underground where it costs more, but just allows for like, you know, better looks, a better building, Yeah. Do you think that the increase in sale value is more than that increase in cost? Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, next to a entire development budget, it's not huge, but you guys got to have that incentive to kind of do it in the first place. And it's on the developer, not the, like it's the developer's choice. Bingo. And that is kind of where it gets a little bit tough because, you know, you'll have developers say, well, this is like a public good. Like why is it on me to do? And then the city's like, well, it's working just fine, you know, so it's kind of like a balance. We'll get into this. Just there's so many players in all these decisions and stuff. Yeah. Definers, you just wait. Okay. We've talked generation. We've talked transmission. Let's now discuss distribution, which is the next phase of the grid. Once electricity gets close to the final destination from the power line, the distribution phase starts when the high voltage electricity that has traveled from the power source is quote stepped down to a lower voltage that can be used safely at a power substation. These substations connect to a smaller distribution network that distributes electricity at a safe voltage to all of the users that are on the grid system. These substations are located all throughout the grid system to get electricity to those consumers. Okay. So we have a section here, consumer use. This is likely the phase or the section that you are most familiar with in this whole system. And it happens when the electricity reaches its end user and is used to power our lives, turning on our lights, charging our phones or electric cars, keeping your drinks cold in the fridge, which I imagine it's aluminum beverage cans all around. Of course. Right, Jay? Of course. I mean, those high recycling rates. So this consumer use phase is a key point in the grid system as the demand for electricity varies by location and can fluctuate at different times of the year or during the day. With the differences and variation in consumer use, electricity generators have to actively manage this demand, which is not easy. We'll talk more about this issue of managing the electricity that's running around this grid. Yeah. And Scott, I don't even think we need to venture any further into this intro to be able to safely say, all right, this is pretty complex. Yes. Right? Like this whole thing is super complex. We're going to make it even more complicated, but it's, it's a real, real doozy. Right. And one thing that we should mention, Jay, is that our intro is a little U.S. slanted. We definitely talk about things outside the U.S., but our interview is going to be more globally minded and outside the U.S. So just throw on that caveat out there. Bingo. So let's start local for you and I, Scott, in the U.S. So here are the U.S. There are millions of miles of high and low voltage lines with distribution transformers connecting the system across the nation. In the continental U.S., there are two major interconnections of the grid as we know it. They each operate independently, but can transfer power between each grid. East of the Rocky Mountains and North of Texas is served by the Eastern interconnection and everything to the West of the Rocky Mountains, you guessed it, is served by the Western interconnection. These two grids are also connected to the Canadian power grid. The Canadian interconnection, Jay? The Canadian interconnection. I can't even say it. Yes, exactly. This interconnection allows for increased reliability as there are many routes for the power to flow and allows for various generators and power stations to supply electricity. All right, Jay, but there's one exception to these nicely named Eastern and Western Eastern interconnections, and that's, of course, Texas. It's the only U.S. state that runs its own grid because it's Texas. It's called the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, or ERCOT, which is close enough to EPCOT that you're like, bingo, what are you guys doing? Which the state opted to do back in the 1960s to avoid federal regulations and work in a deregulated energy market. While this can be beneficial as consumers have more choice on who they want to buy their energy from, it's also extremely difficult to import electricity from those two other power grids into or out of the state. Something tells me most people are more enthused to talk about EPCOT than ERCOT. Totally. One is not the happiest place in the world. There are many organizations that are involved in keeping the grid working as there is no single owner of this system in the U.S. So here we go. Here comes the complexity. There are investor-owned utilities, publicly owned utilities, cooperatives, independent energy producers, and the federal government, all involved with the production and distribution of energy. In addition, there are independent system operators, regional transmission organizations, and reliability coordinators who ensure that operations run smoothly, especially in case of emergency. And to ensure that the system is run as fair as possible for all the entities, the power markets in the U.S. and many other countries are regulated by the government at all levels, local, state, and federal. I'm sure everybody's on a Slack channel and just coordinating perfectly, Jay. It's probably a poster child for efficiency. Well, let's get into an example here. So in the U.S., there's the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, or FERC. It's tasked with ensuring reliable, safe, secure, and economically efficient energy for consumers at a reasonable cost. This independent government agency regulates the interstate transmission of energy sources like oil, electricity, and natural gas, and it uses regulations, markets, and collaboration to achieve this mission. It's a pretty FERC-ing important role there, Scott. FERC-ing important. Now, it's so important, Jay, that there's even someone above FERC trying to help manage this whole thing, and that's a continent-wide entity. It's called the North American Electric Reliability Corporation, or NERC, NERC-ing important. That doesn't work. It's a nonprofit international regulatory body that helps to enforce grid reliability and security standards in the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. Further, most states also have state energy offices or utilities commissions that oversee energy policies, programs, and financial incentives, in addition to these international and federal offices. We'll link in the intro notes to the page on the Federal Energy Management Program website that has the details for respective energy offices and organizations within each U.S. state if you're interested in learning more about how your specific state interacts with the energy system. And Jay, I feel like for those that are looking for their career path, I'm like, go with energy, man. There's so many entities you can get a job with. Jeez. Seriously. And Scott, we alluded to it. We just touched on it again. Like so many players, so much interconnection. We're going to get into how these grids can vary now outside of the U.S., but also ultimately why it's so hard to make improvements here. All right. So Scott, along those lines, how do electrical grids vary around the world? Well, some countries have developed fairly reliable grids, while other grids are currently having trouble meeting the needs of their populations. In parts of the world, just having access to electricity via grid system is a luxury. A recent study by the International Electricity Agency, or IEA, found that the number of people across the world who live without electricity approached 775 million in 2022. While this is a decrease from the nearly 1.2 billion people who were living without electricity in 2010, this progress has not been quick or equitable across the world. As fuel prices rise, those in the developing world are seeing access to reliable and affordable energy stalling. Further, as populations in many countries continue to grow, access to electricity has slowed, resulting in big gaps across each country. In Ethiopia, for example, the IEA found that the population growth is currently outpacing new connections to the grid system, as many of the projects that were planned have been put on hold due to lingering impacts from the COVID-19 pandemic. The utilities in this area don't have the funds to complete energy access projects that were in the works to fund new projects. In fact, in 2020, the top 20 least electrified countries in the world were all located within the continent of Africa, where there is a large gap in energy access between the rural and more urban areas within the continent. While 80% of the people within urban areas in Africa had access to electricity in 2020, only 30% of rural populations had the same access. Further, the World Energy Outlook of 2022 report found that with current global policies, there will still be 660 million people across the globe who will live without energy access in 2030, and 85% of those people will live in sub-Saharan Africa. There is a lot more investment needed in these areas to expand access to electricity from a grid system, though there are other ways to expand access to electricity beyond typical grids that we'll discuss in a bit. It's not like a new thing that unfortunately sub-Saharan Africa has got most of the lack of electrification happening, and I'm excited to talk with our interviewee because she's so steeped in this. Bingo, exactly. So for those countries with access to a working grid system, there are a few key factors that contribute to the variation in grid conditions around the world. These include the age and condition of the infrastructure, geographic factors, and political and economic factors. In markets like Australia, the European Union, and Japan, the utilities business is much less regulated than here in the U.S. Now, this is a really interesting example, Jay, that I didn't know about, and it's with Japan. So it has historically been divided into two regions, and thus it has two different grid systems. Now, what makes Japan interesting is not just that there's these two different grid systems, but that they're actually running at two different main frequencies. This causes a lot of issues and limitations when transferring and shifting electricity from one grid to another. And if there's a power outage in one half of the country, for instance, it can be difficult to share electricity with the other half. And Jay, I'm like, why have they not fixed this? Like, who has their heels dug in the ground here? One of them has to give in. Just flip a coin. Come on. Yeah, you know, just make like the U.S. and Canada and just, you know, cross those boundaries. Well, I wonder if it's something where they can't just switch. Like there's installed infrastructure that you need to replace, and it's super expensive, and neither side wants to be the one to blink and have to do that. I suppose that's probably the best guess, and I wonder how far apart these voltages are in the first place, you know? Yeah. All right, that's Japan. Let's jump over to India, where the population and economy are fast growing, but the country's grid is facing some difficulty meeting the growing demand. The power market in India is the third largest market in the world, and daytime demand is quite high as India's residents live, work, and go to school. Additionally, increases in temperature caused by heat waves often put additional strain on India's energy infrastructure, which largely relies on coal as a main energy source. The shortages of coal, coupled with increased demand, unfortunately results in consistent blackouts across the country. And one thing with India, Jay, I feel like I've seen these photos with just a crazy number of wires all crisscrossed and mixed in with each other. Maybe it's because it's pretty deregulated, and there's lots of... It's not very clear who's serving who. Right. So I don't know about that one. I don't know if any listeners know, but that has struck me about India's power situation. Yes, I suggest folks Google India power line images, and holy cow, you'll see exactly how complex these things are. It's crazy. All right, so Scott, what are some limitations of a typical electric grid? Well, one is super complex and intertwined. I think we've established that, Jay. Yes. And there's a lot of points within the system where things may go wrong, especially since consumer use is really a key driver of how the grid is managed. So let's explore some of the limitations of these systems that we rely on every day. And later in this episode, we'll talk about emerging technologies and methods to help improve the grid sustainability and resiliency. So let's start with a key concern for many grids around the world, and that's the age of these systems. Electricity and the grid systems as we know them have been around for a long time. And because of this, aging infrastructure is becoming a bigger problem. A 2022 Reuters special report mentions that while the U.S. is making great strides with growth in wind and solar power, this progress cannot continue to be successful if there's not a massive overhaul of our outdated electric infrastructure. The article goes as far as to call the current U.S. grid creaky and decrepit. Oh, my wow, those are some accusations being thrown at our poor electric grid, which and some key experts in the space say that more than two trillion dollars is needed to make these improvements. So the question is, how old is the U.S. grid infrastructure? A 2015 U.S. Department of Energy report stated that 70 percent of power transformers were 25 years of age or older, 60 percent of circuit breakers were 30 years or older, and 70 percent of transmission lines were 25 years or older. Now, this study was completed eight years ago, meaning these key components of the grid have only gotten older. Other sources note that the average age of a power line in the U.S. is over 40 years old, or we could just say over the hill in many ways. OK, so that's it over 40 or over the hill. We're not far away, dude. Well, all right. That's we're going to save that for another episode. Sustainable aging, I guess. Oh, boy. OK, one key effort to improve the reliability and the strength of energy transmission is grid modernization or improving the physical framework of the grid. This could include updates to old wire systems and installing more modern technologies. However, the Conservation Law Foundation notes that much of the modernizing that needs to be done is around changing current policies for utilities. As mentioned earlier, grids are shared resources of both privately owned and public assets. It's often difficult to define who is responsible for what upgrades and how they should be done. There's so many players within these systems. Coordination is nearly impossible. This adds to the difficulty in upgrading this critical infrastructure. Like you were talking about, Jay, who has to take that on? Who decides? Who's on first? Yeah. All right. Policy changes may be the key here, as it appears that the federal government doesn't have the ability to enforce modernization of infrastructure within our current policy structure. No one group has the power or responsibility to maintain the grid. An additional challenge here is that some state and regional regulators often have political incentive to not approve these changes, as they're typically pretty costly. As an example, in just three months last year in the US, there were 549 policy and deployment actions to help modernize. our electric grid with over $12 billion proposed as an investment. However, federal regulators only approved about 479 million or 4% of that. That's pretty lame. And I wonder why they didn't approve it. I'm sure each one has a little story behind it, but yeah, a 4% is, you're getting probably at this point, like a drop in the bucket of an otherwise like drop in the bucket step to address this stuff. And it's frustrating we can't get there. Right, especially if this money has already been approved, you know, if it's just the regulators holding it back as maybe there wasn't a certain process step done or something, right? Yeah. All right, so another key limitation of the grid's complexity is that they're prone to outages and disruptions, also called blackouts. Here in the US, blackouts and power interruptions are becoming more and more common, in part because of that creaky old grid. Creaky old grid. So a 2021 study from the EIA showed that in 2020, the average American energy consumer experienced over eight hours of electric power disruptions, the most since the EIA began record keeping in 2013. And Jay, I have to say, I don't remember the last time I had a power outage knock on table here. No kidding. Do you? Yeah, I mean, we've probably had, oh, I don't know, a handful in the last couple months, but- Really, like weather or just random? Kind of random, but they don't last longer than usually a couple hours. But yeah, they've definitely happened out here. Okay, interesting. So there's many potential explanations for why these blackouts may occur. However, in addition to the age of our grid, another common cause is that there's been an increase in extreme weather events, that's why I was asking, that threaten the reliability of the system. In 2020, the US Department of Energy conducted research on the reasons for power loss. And that research found that 96% of power loss was due to severe weather or natural disasters. And unfortunately, these events are becoming more frequent as a result of climate change. In fact, research from Climate Central showed that in the US, the average annual number of weather-related major power outages, defined as over 50,000 people losing power, increased by 78% between 2011 and 2021. Now, we can see extreme climate in action every year in the US during hurricane season. However, in 2021, we saw the potential impact of extreme weather on the grid specifically. The unexpected winter storm in Texas in 2021 made national news because all of the power sources in the state faced difficulty performing in the extreme cold temperatures, causing major, major grid failure. Equipment froze and the extreme weather conditions made it difficult to manage, causing half of the state's natural gas supply to be shut down, affecting 4.5 million households in the state, and even causing 57 deaths. I don't like to think about people just dying in their home, not being able to heat them. It's really sad. I think given we're talking about people dying in the cold, I'm not gonna make my Ted Cruz joke here. I'll just move on. Okay. Additionally, as we noted, the majority of the state of Texas functions on its own unregulated grid, and so it wasn't able to supplement from other parts of the US. Within that state power grid in Texas, there's over 550 electricity generators, over 60 transmission companies, and over 130 electric providers, further complicating any efforts to cooperate and restore power. This complex structure and difficulty with equipment, coupled with the disconnection for the rest of the country, exacerbated the power losses to Texans in 2021. For those interested in how this all went down, there's a really good Planet Money podcast episode on this, and we hyperlink to it within the intro notes. All right, let's zoom out now from what happened in Texas and talk more generally. So to keep up with the changing climate, disaster preparedness needs to step up, but we also need to begin thinking about improvements to the current infrastructure. The reality is that at the same time the grid infrastructure is getting older, climate events are happening more frequently, and these statistics highlight the need to update our grid infrastructure to work for our current climate if we want to be able to meet demand and increase grid resilience. A third limitation on the grid is load shedding. As mentioned, consumer use is a critical part of the grid system. Demand for electricity ultimately drives the entire thing. There are times where demand for electricity exceeds the current supply. When this happens, utilities can temporarily stop the delivery of electricity to certain parts of the grid system to prevent overloads and potential longer and more extensive outages. This is called load shedding. You don't want shedding in your pet, you don't want shedding in your grid. That is so true, and we haven't necessarily bred any non-shedding grids at this point. Now, while this isn't as common here in the US, it is a tactic used frequently by many countries to maintain grid integrity. In South Africa, for example, load shedding schedules are a way of life for many of the residents as the nation's power utility, ESCOM, has had difficulty in providing consistent electricity since 2007. In the country, load shedding in the form of rolling blackouts often occurs on both a predictable and unpredictable schedule due to failures within the aging coal plants, making it impossible to meet the demands of the population. In 2021, there were a total of 1,165 hours or 48 days of darkness within the country. And Scott, I think I alluded to this in an earlier episode, Anna and I had first-hand experience with this on our honeymoon way back when, but I remember we checked into our hotel and they gave us a printed out sheet that was like, hey, here's the load shedding schedules. Just know the power's gonna be off during these windows. And you know, it was a very like routine thing. So that's like, Jay, that's like one in eight days. That's crazy. Crazy. Okay, and lastly, there's an alarming increase of attacks to the grids through both physical and cyber terrorism methods. In the US in particular, there have been high levels of these cyber and physical attacks to our power infrastructure, causing alarm to federal regulators. From January to August of 2022, utilities in the US reported at least 101 incidents they believe to be intentional attacks, vandalism, robberies, or threats on the utility system. The past three years have been the most active for reported grid attacks in the past 10 years. While the details and the motivations for many of these attacks are not public, the trend is fairly alarming and agencies are looking to strengthen grid systems and infrastructure in our growing digital environment. As more devices become interconnected through the internet, remote access, and network sensors, there could be new potential vulnerabilities hackers could have access to that could be used to interrupt the grid system. Jay, I think this is super scary, just how much we rely on our energy. And even when you think the electricity goes out, everything kind of comes to a halt and to think that someone can play with that is scary stuff. Oh yeah, I mean, even that thought of like, you know, the power goes out and you become afraid to open your fridge because you don't want to let the cold air out. You have no idea how long it might be out. So yeah, this is definitely unsettling stuff. Okay, so what trends are emerging to help improve grid sustainability and resiliency, Jay? I think this is our last topic here because it's a little more forward-looking. Yes, okay, so with all of these potential limitations, what can we do in addition to policy changes to improve our grid? Well, a 2022 article from the Natural Resources Defense Council, or the NRDC, underscores that overall in the U.S. we need to invest in a grid that is resilient, especially to climate change. Specifically, grid systems need to have the ability to adapt and respond to changes while also making progress on the clean energy transition. In the U.S., as a part of the bipartisan infrastructure bill, the Grid Deployment Office is in the early stages of distributing $10.5 billion from the Grid Resilience and Innovation Partnerships Program, or GRIP. The goal of the program is to accelerate projects that will help increase the reliability of our current grid infrastructure and increase the consistency and affordability of clean energy. While there are many ways the grid can be improved, let's look at a few technologies and trends that can help grid systems across the globe become more resilient, starting with smart grid technologies. As we've mentioned throughout this episode, the current grid as we know it was built many decades ago, and while it has been improved over time, it's still struggling to meet current demand and it's limited in capacity. Many engineers have noted that we need new improvements to make the grid smart so that energy generation is automated and better managed as our energy needs become more and more complex. So smart grid, we could probably do a whole episode just on smart grid, but the U.S. Department of Energy defines a smart grid as interconnected generation and loads enabled with remote monitoring and controls capabilities. So in short, this means that smart grid technologies are used to monitor, control, and optimize the grid, mainly through technology like improved hardware sensors, communication lines, and software applications that can help manage the grid in real time through two-way communication between the utility and the end consumer. That's really important. It's like, how often is the utility communicating to you, Jay, in real time? Only times I get communicated in real time is like, oh, there's an outage, and oftentimes I already know that. And here's your bill. Right. Yeah. But I think what this is talking about is like, hey, can we run your dishwasher at 2 a.m.? Because that would help us out, and we'll charge you less sort of thing. Okay, so a few benefits the DOE mentions for smart grid technologies include more efficient electricity transmission, faster power loss restoration, lower operational costs for utilities and consumers, and better integration of renewable energy into the grid. Unfortunately, building out a smarter grid will take lots of money and a lot of technology upgrades, so this won't be an easy or a quick transition. However, we are slowly seeing some of these technologies receive approval and funding and come online. Grants for smart grid technologies are a key part of the GRIP program, with $3 billion of grants available in 2022 for this purpose. We just gotta get them approved, right, Jay? That's right. Apparently. The hope is that these grants will help increase the flexibility, efficiency, and reliability of the system overall by increasing capacity, lessening the impact of natural disasters, and facilitating more advanced energy management programs. We'll see who receives the first round of grants and how they are deployed, but hopefully these grant dollars result in improved infrastructure that can take our current grid system into the future. All right, so we talked about smart grid. Another tactic to help improve grid flexibility is demand-side management programs. These programs are a strategy that can be used by electricity utilities to help control the demand for electricity, by providing incentives for consumers to reduce energy use during peak demand times. So demand-side management, basically reducing the demand side so that there's less strain on the system. You may have even seen this within your own utility company where they may fluctuate rates depending on the demand or during peak times of day, all in an effort to help the company shift consumption and mitigate stress on the grid system by allowing companies to schedule and plan energy usage. Jay, that goes just back to the example I was saying earlier, like the energy company saying, hey, can I run this thing at 3 a.m. instead? Yes. So other utilities may encourage their customers to install energy-efficient technologies like thermostats or energy sensors to track demand and shift usage as needed. So these demand-side management techniques, they help to reduce the risk of unexpected increases in demand that can cause that unexpected outage we want to avoid, and that in turn makes the grid more efficient and dependable if you've got less energy being demanded by consumers. We can also improve the reliability of our grid through the use of distributed energy resources, or DER. Jay, DER is fun to say. Just call it DER. It's fricking fun to say? DER. DER. Okay, we'll see how it comes out. Right, so distributed energy resources, DER, also called embedded or local generation. DERs are smaller-scale energy generation and storage technologies that can be located at or near the point of use for consumers. Technologies for DERs could include the use of onsite solar, energy storage like batteries, or even the use of microgrids to help support the larger grid and allow for increased power sources during times of increased demand. These distributed energy resources are becoming more affordable and efficient and can soon play an increasingly important role in the grid. So an example here would be microgrids. They're usually a combination of backup generators and renewable sources like solar panels or smaller-scale wind turbines. These smaller systems are located right at the source of consumption, rather than hundreds of miles away, eliminating the need for those long transmission lines or the loss of energy like we were talking about. As these microgrids, they generate electricity right on site. These systems can kick in when there are grid outages or when demand is high by using software to control the various flows of electricity. The size and cost of these smaller systems varies greatly, but can be a nice complement to an existing grid system. Now, energy storage, that's a key component of distributed energy systems. If you're interested in learning more about energy storage, check out episode 57. We went in depth on this topic there. Energy storage technologies, they're a key topic in the field that are being studied as a way to provide backup power or even power that can be transported when needed. In addition, as our grid begins to incorporate more renewables like solar and wind, they often fluctuate in their availability more than fossil fuel-based power sources. So batteries and energy storage, they become more critical to providing continuous supplies of electricity because they can harness that wind and solar power for when we really need it. Right, exactly. So the example being, you've got a solar energy storage system that captures energy during the day, fills those batteries, then releases that power for use at night or on dark or rainy days. So of course, battery storage can be used not just for those rainy days, but it can help the grid overall by helping to shift demand from when the grid see an increase in consumption or when energy is at its most expensive. Scott, you were alluding to that about running your dishwasher when it's super cheap. The use of these batteries can also increase resilience as they can be used as emergency backup in the event of a power outage. Okay, quick breather, Definers. That was a big intro on a complicated topic, but fortunately, we are now about to connect with our expert guest, Christina Skierka, to help break all this down a little bit further for us and add a little bit of global flavor. So Scott, you wanna introduce her real quick? Yes, she's gonna recharge all our batteries, Jay. There we go, nice. There it is. Christina Skierka, she's the CEO of Power for All, like Jay was saying, and that's a global campaign to accelerate the end of energy poverty. She manages an international team that has built a coalition of more than 300 partners and launched initiatives to accelerate the adoption of decentralized renewable energy in numerous countries, including Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, India, Ethiopia, and Uganda. Christina has over 20 years of experience in the energy sector. She has a global reputation for work to advance clean energies. She's regularly cited as an expert on distributed energy, renewables, and sustainability, and she's been featured in the New York Times, Green Tech Media, Forbes, and the Huffington Post. Christina was named Energy Foundation's Senior Fellow in 2009. She was a finalist for both the 2015 Clean Energy Ministerial C3E Award and the 2016 Climate Solutions Accelerator. Christina has been named one of the African Power and Energy Elites for 2020 by ESI Africa, and she's based in San Francisco. Off we go. All over the world, incredible people are working along the front lines of the future to build clean energy and ethical AI, to fight the climate crisis and COVID, to discover new antibiotics, to eliminate poverty, food waste, and cancer. And to make the world a better place. We're all in this together. We're all in this together. We're all in this together. We're all in this together. We're all in this together. We're all in this together. We're all in this together. We're all in this together. Food waste and cancer. And you can help. Important, Not Important is the critically acclaimed indie podcast from me, Quinn Emmett. It's science for people who give a... Join me every week in conversation with one of these extraordinary diverse people engineering a brighter future. Listen to Important, Not Important wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Definers, welcome to the interview portion of our episode focusing on the energy grid. We are so excited to be joined today by Christina Skerka, the founder and CEO at Power For All to talk all things grid, non-grid, all of her fantastic work. So first things first, Christina, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, it's my pleasure to be with you guys. Thanks for the invite. All right, so let's kick things off, Christina, with your background. We saw that you earned your BA in political science from University of Colorado Boulder, go Buffs. How has this background helped you within your career? And perhaps as a tangent to that, when would you say you developed a particular interest in sustainability over the course of your background? Yeah, well, to be fair, I grew up in Colorado and it's really hard to grow up in a state with such amazing natural beauty and not be passionate about preserving that planet for years to come. So it was really love of outdoors that led me to care about sustainability. And that was actually my first entree, right? So whether that included knocking on doors back in the old days, asking for donations to Colorado Public Interest Research Group, or doing some very early organizing, political organizing, the real impetus for that political science degree was, you know, it wasn't even so much for the topic matter, but I think the real focus, right, was about learning and how to learn and how to question things. And I think really importantly, as a bit of a student of social movements, begin to understand how you make change happen. And I actually got my start then in political campaigns, right? So I learned very early, you don't want to do candidate campaigns. They cost a lot of money and a lot of headaches. But so initiatives and referendums became my real specialty. And when it comes to initiatives and referendums, there's really two core things to keep an eye on. One is the math, right? There's a real science to winning one of these initiatives. But beyond that, you have to have messaging that's about something bigger than yourself for just the ballot issue. And so I think all of those pieces sort of added up to where I am today in my career. And were there any ballot initiatives or referendums around energy grids that you want to tell us about, just to kind of get right into the topic a little bit? No, no, in fact, not. It's sort of an unusual path I got to working in the energy sector, but no. In fact, you can thank me though, for the baseball field, as well as Denver International Airport. So. Well, Christine, I do want to jump in and say, I'm here in Denver. So I will thank you both for the ballpark and DIA, but I will say your story about how you got interested in sustainability. I think I followed that exactly. So it's funny we share that in common. Yeah, well, it's, I have to say, I mean, at this day and age, I feel like it's no longer confined, right? To just living in a beautiful place that makes you care about the environment now, you know, where it's such an existential crisis moment that everybody has to care about it. It's really almost mandatory, but yeah, it is nice to be in a place where we're rewarded on a daily basis with natural beauty. And then how did you get into the energy grid space then? Well, funny story. It really wasn't even on my main screen thinking at all about working in the energy sector, but I, many years ago, was sort of at a weird turning point in my life. So I sold everything I had, bought a truck and drove from Colorado down to Argentina. Okay. And it's all going to connect. But it was on that drive down, right? It's the first time I was in a developing country, Central and South America. And it's the first time I ever really saw the distinction between a village that had energy and those that didn't. And it was such a stark contrast. And I didn't really understand the sort of breadcrumbs that were being laid in my mind at the time. But when I came back from that walkabout and found myself sort of unexpectedly in California and needed a job, I went back to my political network and that was how I actually took my first step into the energy space and worked with a demand reduction program out here in California called Flex Your Power, which is still in the market today. But that was the first time I really saw how I could bring together those political skills that I'd learned. I think that deep love of environment and really specializing in a sector that could have a bigger impact on protection of the planet for a longer time to come than anything else I was considering doing at the time. So that's how I ended up in this space. Oh, I love that story of how you just went down there and saw this firsthand and became inspired to work in it. And so we always like to ask our guests who have done so much in their careers like you, and because we know so many of our Definers, they're interested in advancing their careers. So is your advice to get in the car, go to a developed country? Is there beyond that? What's your thoughts for those listening that might wanna also get into the energy space? Yeah, well, I think a couple of things. So first of all, your 20s should be a time where you're exploring. Whether you're doing that in a Ford F-150 with an extra cab and dual tanks, or whether you're doing it on the internet, I think it's a really important moment in your life to just experiment and see what captures you. I think also though, in that timeframe, while one is sort of dabbling, it's a great chance to really understand what one's strengths are. And I think the biggest career advice I have for people, more even than what issue you focus on is really work to your strengths. I spent a lot of years trying to fix all my weaknesses and my career really took off when I just focused on what I was really good at. So, yeah, so that's a lesson hard learned, but the energy space is growing and changing so rapidly. I think, honestly, it's a bit of a blue sky for anybody who wants to get engaged. Whether you're interested, for example, in helping to develop the market for appliances, for weak grid environments in developing countries, or whether you're interested in helping to grow adoption of solar in the US, a very advanced market, there's just endless opportunities and it's a great space to work. Well, Katrina, I feel like we could spend a lot more time asking you about your career. It sounds just so interesting, but of course I do want to start transitioning us to start talking about your current role as it leads us to a larger conversation about the electrical grid. So as the founder and CEO of Power For All, you're working to create a movement dedicated to accelerating the end of energy poverty. So how are you specifically working to coordinate teams around the world on such an important topic, especially in regions where, to go back to your Argentina anecdote, there are such inequalities in energy access? Yeah, well, so a couple of things on that. The great news, right, for those of us who care about the planet, is that renewable energy is the game changer to ending energy poverty. And that's been a real breakthrough, I think, in the last decade that a number of countries have really started to get interested in. With the way that the prices have fallen and the accessibility of these technologies has increased, it's actually a solution to what everybody thought was an intractable problem for years. But beyond that, the concept of Power For All, right, is that it's really about creating an ecosystem of change makers, and specifically local change makers. Why? Because there's no one policy, no one product or no one person that can transform a market. And that's what we're talking about doing by accelerating the adoption of renewables to end energy poverty. So you need a whole ecosystem. So that theory of change, right, that's something we talk about in the nonprofit world, is that we focus on two key components, and both of them have a deep research base. So one of those is really developing the story and the narrative and the proof about why decentralized renewables are a faster, better path to energy access. And at the same time, being prepared to take on, challenge and debunk the idea of grid supremacy. So starting with that research base, the goal then is to do what is a common communication public awareness campaign instead of tactics, right? So you're raising awareness in key media that affects influencers and adopters. You're also doing market transformation and activation initiatives. So getting demand from the bottom up for the products and services to be in their countries. And then the advocacy that makes it all possible. So whether that's getting rid of a VAT tariff, or perhaps even something that's a bit more pro renewable energy, such as energy access targets with renewable energy. All of those things add up to creating a system that ultimately is not dependent on us. So that idea of equipping and empowering local change makers with the information, the facts that they need, we're happy to lead from behind and sort of white label this approach, because we want everybody to own not just the idea, but the way forward to deliver power for all. So would you say the core to power for all is distributed or decentralized? I think I heard you call it renewable energy and getting people to buy into that and spread it far and wide? A hundred percent. So just a little bit on the basic stats. So the way that we count who has access and who doesn't is not perfect. And I don't even know how actually accurate it is, but the best numbers we have today say that, somewhere between 600 million and 700 million people are without any access to energy. An additional billion have irregular intermittent access to energy. So when you look at those problems, especially those that don't have a connection at all, those are people who are largely 85 to 90% in peri-urban and rural areas of developing countries. So these are places that the grid will basically never reach. It's not affordable. It's not fast enough. It's just not the right technology. So what's great is this market has grown up really using the existing energy budgets that poor people have, right? Just because you're poor doesn't mean you don't have a budget and doesn't mean you aren't as incredibly savvy and demanding consumer. But the idea is that people already are spending a certain amount of energy on kerosene, on diesel, on charcoal, other unsustainable fossil fuels, right? So the concept then is to use that budget and instead with financing, help them invest in power that they own that is renewable and pays them back over time. So that is what the companies of this sector are doing and they are working hard and experiencing in many cases, really remarkable growth. What our job is, is to help pave the way for that, to drive that awareness, to get policymakers on the side of this sector, and when needed, be the sort of advocacy street fighters to tell the story and convince more people that this is actually a human right, this being access to energy. You mentioned that you're trying to get distributed renewable energy out there and get it to people such that the people that are getting it get paid back over time or that make money off it, or the people that install it, they get paid back and maybe have a model where people can spread out their payments so that they can afford it. Well, it's both, right? Because once you own your own power, you're no longer spending, and once you pay back for the system, you're no longer out every month or every week spending money on energy because you're able to create with access to the sun and with your system, a regular source of energy for lighting, for phone charging, oftentimes for fans and small appliances. So what we've seen, and this is something the sector refers to a lot, is the development of an energy ladder so that it usually starts with what's known as a tier one or tier two type of lighting system. And that has to do with the wattage and the power of the system. And as that pays for itself, people will go back and either want to buy more products or they'll want to buy a bigger system. Or in some cases, like we've seen in a number of countries, they'll actually want to start buying appliances that improve the quality of life or help them start and run successful businesses. That makes sense. That's why you kind of called it the key enabler. And I have to imagine there's also a lot of jobs that spring up to maintain it in these communities. Yeah, for sure. And in fact, that's one of the exciting things I really think when it comes to this sector and renewables in general, right? So every other year, Power for All does a Powering Jobs study where we actually look at not just the jobs themselves, but the type of employment, the salaries, and the quality of the work experience. And every year we see such incredibly impactful numbers about not just the direct jobs that come from this sector, but all of this sort of knock-on effects, right? Because having power ends up enabling all sorts of additional businesses and therefore employment opportunities to spring up. And that study's on your website for those interested? It is, yeah. You can find it just with a Google search on Powering Jobs and Power for All. Fantastic, Christina. Ari, such good stuff here. Let's keep channeling this, talking about the grid and equitable energy access. In this episode, we talked about grids and how they work to provide energy access, a lot of stuff I didn't know. Scott, not sure about you. No, no. But we also noted that there are 775 million people living without energy access to the grid in 2022. Which I think is about what Christina said, right? Right, yeah. The new numbers just came out for most, the most recent numbers came out earlier this month, and now they're saying the number is 645 million. Again, how we measure it is a whole nother- It's in that ballpark. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Unfortunately, yeah. It is a large number of people. Yes. But we're talking about distributed renewable energy. In addition to that, Christina, what technologies and policy changes is Power for All and perhaps others in this space using to help expand energy access to those who are currently without? The great news is, is there's some real clear, known, proven ways to drive this sector's growth, which leads to additional connections. And so that includes some kind of obvious things like having low import duties or no VAT on importing, for example, solar panels. Inclusion in microfinance institutions that can help reduce first costs to poor people or people who are unbanked. A strong distributed energy regulatory framework alongside energy access policies, which we're a big fan of having national targets for energy access. And then finally, any other kind of financial mechanism like a loan and a grant that can help support companies working locally as well. So that's actually great news, right? We have a path. Now we just need to walk down it as a global community. I appreciate the path and detailing some of those policies that should be in place to spread decentralized renewable energy. But I think some definers might be like, okay, but that intro was all about the grid. So is Christina saying it's only decentralized, not connected to a grid? I mean, can you tell us about situations where the grid does make sense or microgrids make sense? Yeah, thanks for asking that. And you're raising a topic that I think is really crucial to address, which is if we continue to think about the energy system as bifurcated, that there's only on-grid and off-grid, we're gonna be stuck in this inertia of keeping people in the dark and not achieving as much as we can as a global community. But if we think about the global energy system as a whole with a role for decentralized and for centralized to play, then we have a lot more arrows in our quiver. And in the case specifically where it comes to grids, they are great solutions for short transmission distance, centrally located populations, where you have a real, I think, concentration of humans. It makes perfect sense. But it's just the grid economics that alone that explain that you cannot end up connecting over 600 million people who don't have energy access in the remaining seven and a half years the way we've always done it. And when you look back at the history of how grids became so central, that was my bad joke. Yeah. Nice. Thank you. Always good to flag the joke. Yeah. But when you look at how grids became so central, it goes back to energy-based development, really with the start of MDBs and the World Bank. And there was a big focus in those early days on creating literal centers of power. And the challenge is, is that not only did that centralize electrification, but it also really changed the predicaments and opportunities for people that didn't have access to that power. The great thing about using decentralized energy is it also democratizes access to that energy and creates far more opportunities for people than they would have otherwise. So is there a country that's done a really good job of considering on-grid and off-grid, and what does that look like? So Ethiopia was the first country that was considered to have a real integrated energy plan. And that was one that called out specific connections coming from the grid, others coming from mini grids, and others from rooftop or standalone systems. But the challenge with that plan, which is known as the National Electrification Plan 2.0, sorry, so this was a revision, is that it still saw things in parallel development and not integrated. And the challenge with not integrating is that everybody's failing to operate at their maximum abilities. And let me explain that. So we launched an initiative about five years ago called Utilities 2.0. And for anybody who wants more information about Utilities 2.0, again, you can find that on our website, but we really saw that two things needed to happen to accelerate the pace of access. One was that utilities needed to embrace decentralized renewables, because no matter what, the vast majority of energy development dollars go to ministries of finance in these countries, and they're making decisions. And so if utilities and the existing energy system can't see a role for decentralized renewables, it's never gonna scale quite as it has the potential to and solve all the problems it has the potential to. The other part of the equation is that there are significant business issues that face centralized and decentralized that neither one can resolve alone, and the other can actually help resolve for them. And so let me give you an example. So utilities in developing countries are not particularly great at customer development. And by customer development, I mean not just connecting somebody, but making sure they A, use the energy, but B, increase that energy use over time. That is something that decentralized communities absolutely thrive on. They are excellent at creating brand loyalty, at teaching people how to use energy, at educating them on how to build businesses off of the energy they're using. So Utilities 2.0 was all about creating an integrated approach, working with a local utility in Uganda called Umeme. And now there's popping up in several countries different versions of this. And in India or Nigeria, we've got examples of people doing what's called under the grid mini grids to help with distribution networks and getting energy actually into people's homes instead of just having a line strung in the neighborhood. Another example too, is a business agreements with a company called Konexa, also based in Nigeria, that is working with DISCOs or the distribution companies to help ensure that you're using all three of these technologies, mini grids, rooftops, and the grid to electrify the most people at once. But there is absolutely a new era upon us and it's actually a really thrilling development to see in the sector. And what are micro grids again? Well, it's up to definition, right? Anything could be considered a micro grid. You could string together two homes and call that a micro grid. But in general, you wanna look at a grid as thinking about probably, I don't know, I mean, it varies in every country, but let me use the example in Uganda of the micro grid or mini grid that we set up to develop the utilities 2.0 pilot project there. That was a 40 kilowatt peak system that connected about 300 people in addition to some small businesses and also supported with other electricity-based services. So that would be an example. Okay, and you said micro grid and then there was a third one. Well, rooftop or standalone systems would be the sort of third- Rooftop, just, yeah, yeah, like this is for that house kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. Christina, I love it because I think, I'm certainly guilty of this, that growing up in the US, you think that our grid is kind of the way it all works, but all of a sudden you just, you broaden that perspective and you see all these different complimentary pieces that come together to perhaps create something that is more efficient than what we've come to be familiar with. I do want to ask you though, are there any other organizations working towards similar goals as Power for All that you've worked with or perhaps have kept an eye on and would like to promote? What's so fantastic is the growth of organizations all over the world that are adopting this as a core issue. And that's what we need, right? So again, the growth of companies is one factor and companies themselves, as well as the customers they serve, form the backbone of this entire space without these brave entrepreneurs and the customers who are also early adopters willing to take a chance and really start to grow this market, none of this would be a topic. But I would say that in the realm of other organizations, you have to think about the entities that help make this possible. So that's the donors, aid agencies, that's philanthropy in a lot of cases, and a lot of venture capital has come into this space as well. But none of it happens without the right financing, whether it's at a corporate level or at a household level. But at the end of the day, sure. I mean, I think one of the things I love to champion is the growth of trade associations and local-based advocacy organizations in most of the countries that are suffering from energy poverty. And that's really an important piece that we bring to all of the work we do, whether it's supporting indigenous organizations or helping get them started and then step out of the way, because having that level of advocacy and commitment from the local change makers is the most essential part of this change-making process. But without a doubt, I just wanna say that everybody has a role to play in this, whether you're living in the global North or the global South, because every time we do things that support the renewable energy sector, we're driving up acceptance and driving prices down. So get your Tesla, get your rooftop system, whatever it might be, even if you're getting a solar phone charger to take on your camping trip, like all of that helps build acceptance of the ubiquitous role that solar power really should have in our world. So first of all, I work for a metal can trade association, so I was happy to hear you mention trade associations as a force for good here. And I wanna pick up on what you're saying here at the end of your last comment around what listeners can do. So you're saying go out and buy things that use renewable energy so that it increases acceptance. What else can listeners do? Is they want to improve the grid where they live or enhance microgrids or decentralize renewable energy, whatever it is, so that more people have access abroad? What would be your recommendations for definers? Well, you know, a couple of things. I mean, there's always the obvious option of making a contribution to Power for All. There you go. Nice plug. But beyond that, look, I think we are on the cusp of being able to teach renewable energy to people from the day they begin to understand words. I certainly do that with my own grandkids. And the idea that we grow up an entire generation of humans that doesn't think that fossil fuels are business as usual and a normal thing, that would be a game changer. So we all have the ability to influence people in our lives and future generations. You know, beyond that though, I do think that there's a lot of movements happening in the United States around community-based energy and being able to select the kind of power that you're actually... be paying for, that people should embrace and take advantage of. I mean, I've been working internationally for the last 15 years, so I'm not as informed about that. But that would be another podcast I'd love to see you guys do with Community Purchase Power. First of all, Christina, when is your kid's book coming out? I'm not laughing, I'm serious. I want to buy it for my niece, so make that happen. As soon as you get me a book deal. Oh, okay, noted. All right, so Christina, you just referenced future generations. Let's pull that thread a little bit and transition towards the future. So broad question here, but would love to hear how you think about it. What do you think the energy transition will look like beyond 2025 and 2030? Well, that's a great question and a serious question with a fair amount of gravity to it given the current state of change in the world. But let me say a couple of thoughts. So first of all, I think it's important to remember that Africa has more people aged under 20 than anywhere else in the world. And the continent's population is set to double by 2050. So for me, that commitment and that mission to get an entire generation of people passionate about and adopting renewable energy is urgent. And I imagine that population growth is happening because of the renewable energy spread. And health outcomes improve, right, I would think. Well, I think that these predictions are independent of renewable energy, but I'm going to take advantage of what you just said and talk about why I think it's important that renewable energy is part of that, right? So obviously we all know that the big focus is how do we prevent ourselves from going over 1.5, how do we protect the planet, and how do we still create opportunity? And when you think about everything that we need, right, all the creativity, the human ingenuity, all of the thinking and new ideas that are in the minds of those additional 2 billion people that can't get out if they don't have the right tools for opportunity such as energy access, there's a whole nother level of responsibility. So if you're asking me in my mind's eye what I hope it looks like, I hope that we have an entire regeneration, renewable energy generation that is leading the charge. So the International Energy Agency, which is a very well-known sort of research think tank institution in France, amongst the scenario planning they have done is a net zero emissions plan that should get us to 2050 without going way over 1.5. And what is the source of the energy in that scenario? More than half comes from decentralized renewables. Many grids and rooftop systems, and 45% or less is coming from traditional grids. And so that has to be part of the future, but ideally if we're accelerating adoption of decentralized renewables, the future is even brighter than that because we're empowering more people who are going to come up with more solutions and have more opportunities to save this planet than we would if we're keeping people locked in energy poverty, relegated to basically the world that they've inherited instead of the world that they could create. I love that. And I love that you frame it in terms of tapping into human potential and unlocking all these talents and insights that people have, but we haven't been able, they haven't been able to unleash them in the way that they should be able to. And I wanted to ask you though, in terms of being able to reduce that number of people that don't have energy access, is there, and you talk about the suite of technologies, is there one technology you want to tell the definers about that is already being deployed or is on the cusp of being deployed that people should know about because it's a game changer? Well, again, going back to my earlier comments, we do have a lot of technology that we need already. I think one of the most important developments though, in addition to really needing to see batteries get to the same price reduction and performance increase that we've seen in solar itself, I'm really excited about these appliances that are made for a weak grid environment. So when we do have grids in developing countries, what we often refer to them as weak grids. Now they're also oftentimes carbon light grids because they just don't serve that many people. But beyond that, there's a lot of intermittency and so if we're talking about how do we get people from a first connection to be on to access and to utilizing everything that energy can bring to one's life, we have to be thinking about what do we plug into those power sources? And so that means there's a whole world of energy efficient technologies and fans and TVs and shavers that can help people create businesses. And that was one of the amazing outcomes we saw in our pilot project in Uganda is that not only as a community of decentralized providers working in partnership with a utility, were we able to create a very meaningful load that wouldn't cost the utility money to bring onto their grid, but in fact would end up being a meaningful customer base for them. We were shocked by the number of businesses that just sprung up. I mean, we knew that some were coming through our partnership with Integro which is an appliance financing company, but beyond people buying a refrigerator so they could serve cold drinks or maybe extra charging stations so they could have people pay them to charge their phones. I mean, we saw like discos popping up, and health centers. Unleash the dance talents of these people too. Yes. Exactly. So are you saying that the appliances for the weak or intermittent grid is just more energy efficient or is it also perhaps there's some battery included in it so it can hold on to energy for when the microgrid or whatever it is goes down? You know, I'm not actually personally aware of a bunch of these that have storage in them, but I wouldn't at all be surprised. But yeah, I mean, at this point, we've seen pretty much every kind of technology pop up that you would think you would need to work in a low wattage or weak grid environment. And it's a super exciting development because it's actually meeting customers where they're at, right, and the reality of the situation and finding a way to help enable a different future for them. So Christina, I have to say, we did an episode on eco-anxiety. Do you know the term? Oh, sure. And you're just, as I'm listening to you talk, you're just so full of solutions and plans and examples. It makes me optimistic like that we can get there. Awesome. I'm so glad to hear that. Look, the truth is, is we can. And it's just a matter of people like you two, future generations to just keep finding the way forward. I think we have everything we need in humanity to solve the problem. We just have to help people access that creativity. And so much of that comes from access to energy, which is a very solvable problem. That's the one thing I think to take away from this podcast. It's solvable, it's getting solved, and we're really at a point where we just need the powers of finance to help make this happen. Perhaps one of the only other missing pieces, Christina, is that children's book. So a little elbow there to maybe make sure we get that on the book, on the shelf. And that'll help the younger generations. I appreciate you referring to us as that, but we're not in our twenties anymore exploring, so. But let's say, Christina, let's move to our final question here, we're having a party because we're celebrating the fact that all these solutions we're talking about have been deployed, that energy access has been improved greatly, STG7, we're on our way, and we're at this party, and someone comes along, they're not familiar with what we're celebrating, and we want to tell them about energy grids and energy access, but is there a party fact, particularly around energy grids, because that is the focus for the episode, that we can tell this person that will just leave them flabbergasted, like, oh, I had no idea that that was the case with energy grids. Oh, I see. Okay. Okay, how about one about outages? Okay. Because I think that's pretty relevant given what we've seen with natural disasters. I mean, I live in California and we had the orange end of day sky last year, right? Yes. New York got to enjoy that recently, actually. Yeah, no kidding, no kidding. Okay, how about this? In Sub-Saharan Africa, the average utility suffers five to 10 times more power outages per month than we would ever see. And even worse than that is that these non-technical losses, right, so that's actually theft, that's a very polite phrase for theft, can be over 50% of output. So that in itself explains why we need to work together, because decentralized renewables through our partnerships can solve a number of those problems, both from the technology side, whether it's like backup power from batteries, or if it's the customer service orientation of decentralized renewables, we can help create a different kind of customer. Hmm, no, that's really stunning. And I imagine it's frustrating for those utilities, but just to clarify, the five to 10x relative to what? To standard, like business as usual. So like what we would experience in the global north. All right, well, Christina, this has been eye-opening. I appreciate all the work you're doing globally. Like you said, if people are interested in your work, go to your website, see all the research you all are doing, can contribute to your organization if they like, and appreciate you making time to talk with us. Awesome. No, it was great, you guys, and so appreciate the work you're doing. Keep it up. Thanks. Thanks, Christina. All right, Scott, quick question. You know, we're both using electricity, right, as we're recording this episode? Yeah, yeah. I think I'd like to practice some of that demand side management you were speaking about not too long ago, and just go ahead and curtail the electricity we're using right now by means of ending this episode. I think that's fair, Jay. I think the utilities will thank us. And Lord knows I don't want to record at 3 a.m., so. I think that's fair, Jay. I think the utilities will thank us. And Lord knows I don't want to record at 3 a.m., so. I think that's fair, Jay. I think the utilities will thank us. I think that's fair, Jay. I don't want to record at 3 a.m., so. All right, well, we would like to extend special thanks to Taylor Price for helping us with the fantastic research for this episode. Taylor. And also thanks to Keetan Butler, our just incredible audio engineer who makes our episodes sound as good as they do. Yep, both awesome members of the team, and in essence, Jay, really our definers are members of the team, too, especially those definers that write reviews. And we got someone, someone wrote a review. It's fantastic, Jay, I'm so excited to read this. It's new, it's awesome, it's super thoughtful. It's Christmas morning here at Sustainability. Oh my goodness, wow, so early. So here it is. It's from Maggie19862021. Jay, what do you think those numbers are? It's not a phone number. Was she maybe born in 1986 and had something happen in 2021? Yeah, she like graduated, like something. Yeah, congratulations, Maggie. There you go, yeah. So she left a review for us on May 21st, 2023, and she titles it, "'All the Stars!' And she says, "'Hi, I started a new job at my company about six months ago with a focus on sustainability and ESG sustainability. I love the new role, but quickly found my eyes were glazing over while trudging through dense articles and industry publications about recycling and refrigeration. This podcast has saved me. So much valuable info in such a digestible and entertaining format. Thanks, Jay and Scott, your loyal listener, Maggie.'" Maggie19862021, oh man. Really, Scott? I mean, she might as well have been Santa Claus because I think we're feeling as warm and fuzzy as it gets. Maggie, please email us, hosts, H-O-S-T-S at sustainabilitydefine.com so we can thank you for this review. And if any other Definers are out there and you're so inclined, please review us on Apple Podcasts. It helps us get discovered on there, but also Maggie was the only one who did it, so we read her review. You'll likely be read too. It's right there for the taking, folks. Go for it. All right. Jay, I think that about does it. You all stay sustainable out there. I'm Scott Breen. And I'm Jay Siegel. We will see you next time. ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪