Ep 38: How Amy Liu Launched Tower 28 and Changed the Beauty Game After 40

On today's episode, we're joined by the powerhouse founder behind Tower 28 Beauty, a cult favourite taking clean beauty to a whole new level. Having spent two decades within the industry and having suffered eczema herself, Amy saw a gap in the market and she didn't just fill it, she transformed it. So, let's find out why she's a lady who looks. Well thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you for having me. I am so excited and I told you before, I've gained some cool points with my 12 year old that I'm sat interviewing you today. I always like to start these conversations in the same way and that's talking a little bit about early life because I really believe that that part of time really instills important values and ways that we work now, in the here and now. So, tell us a little bit about your early life and what it was like growing up. Did you have any kind of entrepreneurial influences around you? Yeah, so my parents immigrated from Taiwan to America and I was born in the Midwest, so I was born in Minnesota and very much a minority and I think, so my dad became an entrepreneur but he would tell you that he became an entrepreneur out of necessity, not out of passion necessarily. So, English was very much a second language and he felt like he couldn't really become very successful without doing something on his own. So, he actually became a general contractor and primarily worked with other Chinese people developing properties that were, you know, small commercial properties and condos and things like that. But he loved what he did and I think I saw him with all the highs and the lows but like we would go on vacation and he would be in a hotel and he would look at all the finishings and pay attention to the elevator where my mom, my mom was an auditor and I don't honestly even still know what that means. Like she left every day at the same time, she had a very corporate job. She left at the same time every day, she came home at the same time, she never talked about her job and I think my takeaway was like, I want that one. I want the one where you really care and you really feel it. And, you know, my dad was like crazy too. Like he would, I remember being in the car with him and he would be driving down the street and he would just see one of those signs that say like psychic readings and he would pull over and I would sit in the waiting room and he would say, you know, entrepreneurship is really lonely and sometimes I just need someone to tell me everything's gonna be okay. So I grew up in this family where I had these very two different influences around entrepreneurship and I think it's funny because even when I told my dad I wanted to do this, despite his love for what he did, he was like, no, I moved here so that you could have a different life and not have such a hard life because being an entrepreneur can be very difficult. I'd rather you have a job that just pays well. You know, it's so much easier. So he wasn't, I mean, he wasn't not, he was kind of not supportive of it, to be honest with you. Almost because he probably felt that that was the work, like you say, it wasn't necessarily desire for him. It was more of a, this is what I have to do to try and make this work. I'd like maybe my children to have more security and more, I suppose, consistency. Well, and I think he also grew up in an era where it was hard to imagine that a woman would be able to be very successful doing, doing something like this. It was hard enough for him as an immigrant and as a man. And then so to imagine layering on to that being not just a person of color, but being a woman, he was like, you got no shot. There's another layer here, girl. He was like, I just don't think, and I think even today he's, honestly, he's so shocked that any of this has turned out the way it has. I mean, and it's also, I bet that, I mean, the pride that he must feel that you're sitting here talking about your business in this way. I mean, you must fill him with immense pride. Yeah, I'd like to think that he's proud, but I think he's probably more shocked. And to be fair, I think some, I've worked for many founders and all of them would have said that they expected this. They always knew they would be successful. And I actually don't feel like that. I feel like I'm surprised all the time that this has happened. And even just being here today, I just came from one of the Sephora stores that we just launched in and it's in the windows, it's on the electronic billboards outside, it's everywhere. And people showed up and stood in line this morning to come and meet us. And I don't, like, it's still very shocking to me. I think, and also you'll always be, it's nice to have that, because you won't ever take it for granted, right? And you will always be grateful because you know what that means and those long hours and the fact that it sort of translates and people get it and they're on that journey with you, I think. Yeah, I think especially to come to a different country. I can only imagine. Where you're very clear you're in a different place, and yet, and I'm constantly surprised that people know who we are. Yeah. Oh, they know. Yeah. Oh, they know, girl, they really do. I want to talk about what you thought you would do, because I think sometimes that always, life can do a 360. When you, when it, when it was school season for you and you were studying, did you know that your life would look like this? Did you know at that point you wanted to be an entrepreneur? I mean, I didn't, so growing up, I always thought I wanted to be a business person and I always dreamed of, you know, I looked up to people who were, there were so few female CEOs growing up, and I'm 47, so I grew up in the 90s, and at that time, the only female leaders that I saw were probably coming from tech, so like Carly Fiorina and Meg Whitman, who were like the CEOs of eBay and Hewlett Packard back in the day. Those big tech brands. And they had really masculine energy, and it was something they just didn't identify with. Yes. And back then, I think that women had a more masculine energy in the workplace, and there was much more a feeling of, it was not collaboration over competition, it was competition. And so I think that has, has changed a lot. Yeah, I would say so. And like you say, there, we talk about having that masculine energy, but also wanting to live that soft girl life. That's not the energy I have, and I, I still want to be seen as important, and I still want to be valued whilst not having to have that masculine energy. But like you say, in the 90s, to be there, I suppose that's exactly the kind of, the energy you needed to have. That's what you needed to portray. Yeah, and even going back to what you were saying about school when I was young, I think all I knew I wanted to do, I think maybe I had a dream of entrepreneurship, but entrepreneurship back then is not what it is today. It was not in the news and so accessible, not accessible, it was not so talked about. We didn't have. People didn't aspire to be an entrepreneur, really. It didn't, it didn't feel like that. I mean, but yet as a kid, I was always the kid who had like a lemonade stand, and I was trying to sell my, you know, stuffed animals to other people. And like, I always was trying to make money and trying to like, figure out how to invent something or do something. So I think I always wanted to do it. But I struggled with that in combination with like, I was a really linear person. Like I went to university, I went to business school, I got like a good responsible job out of college, I worked at Accenture, which is a consulting firm. And I really cared a lot about my resume, and I wanted to be successful. And I really kind of lived in fear of this idea that I wouldn't be successful. And so the idea of taking a risk, I mean, it took me a very long time to even do this. I didn't start Tower 28 until I was 40. I've worked in the beauty industry at this point now for 23 years. So it's, it's nice. People sometimes say to me, like, what's it like to have an overnight success? And I'm like, I don't really feel like this is an overnight success, you know? This is years. But they say that it takes 10 years to have an overnight success, don't they? So, so you leave school, you go to university, what did you study? Economics. Okay, so we're kind of, we're in, like we say, we're in different worlds here. At what point did you start working for other founders? I've always, I mean, so when I went to college, I went to, I worked at Accenture, and then I went back to business school. And I had what I called my quarter life crisis. So I really was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. And I decided I wanted to work in beauty. I was like, it's either beauty or fashion, but fashion seems too, I don't know, subjective, too many, too creative, like, basically, beauty, lip gloss is always going to be popular. Pink lip gloss, in particular, is always going to be popular. And there's, it's much easier to understand, right, kind of the need gap. So I decided I wanted to work in beauty. And at that point, I started working. My first year in business school, I started and I worked at L'Oreal for Maybelline. And then I started my second year in business school, I started working full time for Smashbox Cosmetics. And this is 2003. So this is when Smashbox was, I mean, at its peak, it was pre-lotter. It was when we were hosting like every fashion week. And it was, it was really cool at that point. And I've never turned back from that. So I worked from Smashbox, Kate Somerville, Josie Maran. And then I worked for a few indie brands consulting. And I started Tower28 seven years ago, I raised money six years ago, we launched. I mean, it's just the kind of trajectory of it. It's like you say, this is something that you then decide beauty is the route for you. But having we talk about the idea of people thinking, oh, my God, it's amazing how that you've launched this business, and it's only a few years old, and you're absolutely smashing it. But of course, those years of learning on the job, right, I suppose, when you look at business school, and you look at studying to enter that world, those years are the invaluable ones. For sure. And I think we, I don't know, I think we as a society really glamorize success at a young age. And people feel really pressured to be very successful, really young. And I think there's a real benefit to trying something when you're young, because maybe you have a little bit less to lose, or you feel a little bit more risk averse, like risky, and the older you get, you're fearless, too. And you're a little more fearless. But as you get older, it's a different kind of opportunity cost, right. So as a, I started when I was 40. But I also had a mortgage. I have three kids in private school, and I actually was making pretty good money. So I, you know, to go from that to something where I didn't know what would happen is, is pretty risky. But I think, to your point, I think, having been in the industry for such a long time, and building a community and a network of people I could ask questions to, and learning lessons along the way, made all the difference for me. And I think that's the importance, too. And we talk about this, like the fear of embarrassment, and asking questions is, it's such a basic tool. Yeah, it's something that we don't do enough, like putting ourselves out there, sending the email, writing that message. But you also have to know who to ask, right. And you have to be able to filter the response, because people are only able to speak from the perspective that they have, right. So you have to, like, you don't take advice from everybody, you take advice about, from certain people about certain things. And I think it takes time to do that. So you have to build your network. And it's also the, on the flip side of that, blocking out the advice from people that you actually wouldn't, you wouldn't really, there's someone that you wouldn't ask, or you don't really value their opinion, but they give it to you. No, and I mean, even early on, I think about this all the time. My brother is an architect, and he's actually a very good architect. He worked for like Zaha Hadid, and whatever, he was in Dwell Magazine. He hated my logo. I mean, like really hated my logo. And I was like, Oh, should I change it? He's someone who has good style. But then I thought, you know, he's really not my customer. So, you know, like, you have to kind of filter. Exactly. That's, that's a really important tool, because that can really slow you down. Outside noise can be so distracting. It's so distracting. And so you have to, like, almost listen, because you don't want to be someone who doesn't take feedback. But then you also have to, at the end of the day, and that's why we're entrepreneurs, like you have to listen to yourself. Yes, absolutely that. And that takes time, I think, to learn that confidence. So when you were working at the likes of Smashbox, and Kate Somerville, etc. What was your role for those companies? Yeah, so actually, if you look at my career, I kind of went from bigger company to smaller company. And every time my job kept getting bigger as I went to a smaller company. So Smashbox actually launched international. So we were as a director of international marketing there. And it's such a full circle moment to come back here because I launched Smashbox in Sephora here. Oh, gosh, so this trip for you really is full circle. Yeah. And so that was I don't know if you know, but Sephora launched years, this is, you know, 20 years ago, launched here, and then it didn't work. They shut it down. And then they relaunched again, two and a half years ago. And now guess what, it really works. And now it works. So to come back here and be launching my own brand and have like 20 years later is a really fun and full circle experience. But yeah, so I was doing that at Smashbox, which was very entrepreneurial, because it was launching for the first time in new countries. Then I went to Kate Somerville. Why can't I talk? Kate Somerville. And there we launched into retail for the first time. So when I started there, it was right when the private equity group had come in, but there was no team. It was a really, really small team at the time. And they'd only been in basically salons and spas. And so I came in to bring us into Neiman Marcus and Bundles and Sephora and QVC. So we went into retail and I was the head of marketing there. And then I went to Josie Marin and I was the head of marketing there as well. And I was the first executive that Josie ever hired. And I was there from like 3 million to 50 million. So it was a really fun and a fast ride. Wow, absolutely that. So you're there, you're having these amazing opportunities, you're flying in those positions. At what point did you think, OK, I'm ready to build something for me? I never had that point. Did you? At one point I was unhappy. I think there was a combination of you have kids. When you have small children and you're working a big job, I think it can feel, and being a woman and working that second shift all the time. So you're working and then you come home and you do bath time and you feed and you do all the things and then you work again. And I think that repeatedly, over and over and over again is really exhausting. And frankly, I just wasn't happy. And I told my husband and he was like, why don't you just quit? And I was like, wait, what? I can quit my job. Is that an option? Is that an option? And I literally quit the next day. And I still thank him so much for that time because I don't think I would have done this if I hadn't had the ability to kind of hit pause and reflect and think a little bit about it. And the support. And that's always at the back of your mind, knowing that actually that would actually fulfill me right now. That would make me happy. But you've got the support of your husband along that ride with you. That changes everything. For sure. And so I for four years, I worked part time. I consulted. But really, I had kids. And so I had my third child, raised my kids. And then literally the week that my daughter, my youngest started preschool, I was like, OK, I want to go back to work full time. And I took a meeting that week at a coffee with a friend of mine from business school. And he said to me, he was like, I thought you always wanted to do your own thing. And I was like, I do. But I think it's too late. I'm like turning 40. I have these three kids. I put them in private school. We have a mortgage like I'm done. I don't think I can do it. And he was like, well, if you don't do it now, you'll never do it. I was like, OK, well, I don't have money and I don't have a partner. And he said, well, what if I invested? Then you would have money. And if you have money, you can hire people. You don't need a partner. And I was like, what? How is that an option? So I didn't know it, but he had sold his company. And when you I don't know, actually know what it's like here in the UK, but if in the States, if you sell a company, you can reinvest the money within a certain period of time and defer capital gains. Right. Yes. And so he was incentivized by that and he wanted to invest in things. And so he made this offer and he's like, if you he's like, how much do you think you need? And I was like, well, I just wrote a business plan for a friend. And based on that business plan, it says that we you know, it's two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to start a company or like a beauty brand. And he's like, if you think it's two fifty, it's five hundred. So I'll give you two fifty, but you have to raise the other two fifty in 30 days. And mind you, I mean, you've just gone for a coffee. I've just gone for a coffee. Wow. And mind you, I did not have an idea. So I didn't have I had a resume and I had an opportunity, but I did not have like I didn't have a deck. I didn't have a business plan. I had nothing. And I was like, well, I didn't even know what I would spend the money on. And other than the idea of creating a consumer brand. And so I literally left. I got in the car and I called my best friend and I told her and she's like, yeah, we would invest, too. I was like, I don't even have an idea what I was like and people invest in things I didn't know. This is just things and speaks to you. They have the confidence in knowing you and your experience and what you're capable of. Well, I think it is. Yes, I will take that. Thank you. Take that. I will take that it was. And I do think I had a good reputation in terms of just, again, like just doing what I said I would do and and caring about my work. But I actually think the more important takeaway is I had put it out there for so many years and I didn't even know it. And I think so often we like have hopes and dreams and we like keep them to ourselves because we're afraid to share them. And I didn't know that over the years I had said to so many people, one day I'm going to do this, one day I'm going to do this. And then when I went to go do it, so many people were like, you've been saying you wanted to do this. We've been waiting for you to do this. And I was able to raise the money really quickly because so many people in my network came out. And it's not all wealthy people, if I'm being honest. It was people who are like me and my brother want to come in together. The girl who used to work for me and be my coordinator, the girl who my best friend from high school who has never invested in anything, you know what I mean? Like just random different people. And it felt so, I don't know, heartwarming, but also like really motivating for me. Because then all of a sudden it happened so quickly because of the way this was sort of gamified, to be honest, that like 30 days from this coffee, I had $500,000 and a C Corp. And I was like, I don't totally know what I'm doing, but I've got a reason now. So here I go. Yeah. But then you're also like, but I took this money and I'm, I'm going to make good of it. These are the people I vacation with. These are the people I go to dinner with. Like I felt really motivated to not just give that money back, but to also be, to do, to do well with it and to make the best out of that opportunity. Right. So you get this money, you've got this support, you've got this backing. How do you know what you're going to do? How, or has that always been there really in the background? So it's funny because I think it absolutely always was in there, there in the background. And I don't know when you have, I, I was in the same industry for such a long time. I worked for so many other people that I think along the way you collect these little things where you're like, Oh, if I was in charge, I would do this differently. If it was me, I would have made this choice. Right. And so I think there were so many of those things. And then in the beginning, it's funny, my first deck was very different than what we're doing today. My first deck was like clean beauty for, um, basically like a Gen Z, Gen Alpha girl. Right. Um, that was kind of the concept initially. And then it has pivoted quite a bit, but also not like the values are the same where I really wanted to always make products that were like healthy. So non-toxic, but also the part that's changed really is the safer sensitive skin part. So it's funny because I never put myself into the brand because I, I was really good at, I thought I was a really good number two. I was really good at making other people's dreams come true and telling someone else's story. And it really wasn't until I started sitting down with people like yourself or editors and I started, we made the products always the way we made the products, which was, um, 100% compliant with the National Eczema Association because I've had eczema my entire adult life. And I always wanted it to be a great price point and all of these things. But until I started telling people about the ethos and who we are and they would say, well, why does this matter to you? I was like, oh yeah, I have eczema. And they were like, wait, why, why wouldn't you talk about that? Because I just didn't know how to put myself. You were so used to everyone else, that being the story, and you supporting everyone else's story. Totally, and it wasn't until I put myself in the story that I really felt like I could see like the light bulb turn on, and that people could relate to it and understand it a little bit more. And that's when we really started pivoting a little bit more. I mean, it's like you say, of course it was always there because that is you and that's your story, but it's tapping into, I suppose, knowing that everyone else would be ready for that. Yeah, and I don't know, I think a lot of maybe, I don't know if it's women, but I definitely had some imposter syndrome, and it was hard for me to put myself forward that way. Yes, but I think that's also natural. I think, look, this is a female podcast. Imposter syndrome comes up a hell of a lot, right? We all have it in us to a degree, but I think that would only be natural when your story has been helping everybody else tell theirs, right? That actually you're used to it not being about you. Yeah, I mean, I think I was just always such a person of service, whether it was my employer, you take care of your kids, you take care of your husband, you like take care of everybody in your life, which I think is quite female in a lot of ways. And so, but yet at the same time, I was really, I had this thing in my identity where I just wanted more. I wanted to know I could do it. And that has been so fulfilling for me. Of course, and the timing as well. That's what's key too for you to feel that, that the timing has to be right. 100%, and I also feel so lucky that I did it when I did it because I feel really grateful that my kids have been on the journey with me. So they're, today they're 16, 14 and 10. And- I mean, how cool is that? And you're in Sephora. That's right. Yeah, and it's like something they can really understand, right? And so, and I think the fact that they've seen me build and they've seen me try and they've seen me work hard. I think that has to be good for them too, in a different way. Absolutely, absolutely that. To see, to have a mom that's a role model in that way and you can see the sleepless nights and the work and that kind of instilling that work ethic in them is brilliant for them to see it then shine and understand exactly what that means. But also on the flip side to equally appreciate it and for their friendship group to really understand it too. That's really cool. Like it doesn't get cooler than that. I want to talk about, because obviously starting a beauty brand has its own challenges, but obviously when it comes to clean beauty and having a brand that serves so many purposes like Tower 28 and ensuring it's eczema compliant and for sensitive skin to be able to use those products but make them everyday products. What sort of challenges come with those claims? Because they're big claims and I can only appreciate the work behind bringing those claims to life. What sort of challenges did that come with at the start? So we spend a lot more money than I would say the average beauty brand does on testing and because we are compliant with not just the National Eczema Association but for all of our skincare products we're actually also compliant with psoriasis and rosacea as well. And then we do clinically proven dermatologists. I mean, we just have so much that goes into it. It takes time and there's no replacement for time. And so the challenges are, I would say time and money are probably the biggest one when it comes to product. When you're developing a product, what's like, you've got this idea for, I don't know, for example, a lip gloss or however that would look for you. What sort of timeline for that being a seed of an idea to you and it being something that's ready to launch? I think in general products take at least probably 12 to 18 months to make depending on what you're talking about. So we just launched a sunscreen. Sunscreens are over the counter. So they're drugs in the United States and here. And so it takes quite a bit longer to make those types of products. But it's really because we care. Somebody asked me the other day, what's the next trend that you're working on right now? And I actually don't think about it that way. We don't really, there will always, I've been in the business long enough to know different finishes will be trendy. You will go from that to dewy and those types of things. But there's a lot of it that is actually always going to be the same, which is just a beautiful texture, things that work, things that last. And because I care so much about the sensitive skin part, I just wanna make really good products that are at a fairly reasonable price point and put them in a cool package that people like using. And you're so right. Obviously there are always going to be trends and we know that. But when it come, when I think of, and I've not actually thought about this until you just said that. But when I think of my makeup bag, there are certain products that I've bought over and over again for you. Like my mascara is the same mascara that I've used for years because I like the way, I like the wand, I like how it goes on and I like, you know. And that's, to me, that is like familiar. And my sort of safety blanket, that's the mascara I use. And if you're loyal to a product, that ends up continuing, doesn't it? Trend or no trend. I mean, the goal for us is I really want us to be like the modern day version of Clinique. So Clinique was this brand that I grew up with that my mom would use and she would give me like the gift with purchase, right? Yes, I so remember that too. But it was something that I could take, it was my first makeup and it was under this umbrella of being safe, but also like good. And so that's really how we think about it too, but hopefully we're able to do it in a more relatable way where it's not just about like doctors and dermatology, but it's also about just like general health. And that feeds into becoming the new normal, right? You're almost just, you're setting the standard for that new normal. When you, so you have this idea, you know where you're going, you know what the route is, you then realize that actually something that has been here the whole time that you haven't stumbled on, it's a part of you and your DNA, that actually that the eczema part is a big issue and that is a huge USP for you as a brand. What, how did that then, how did that investment then look? What was the first thing that you did when you had that money, the money lands? What was the first hire? Where did you start? Yeah, so from the very beginning, the thing I really wanted to do was be a makeup brand. So there are a lot of skincare brands that have sensitive skin kind of products. And so I really thought the need gap was in makeup because I really wanted to cover my skin imperfections like my redness and my texture and those types of things. But I really worried that when I used complexion products that it was making my skin worse because a lot of times when you have eczema or any acne, anything, your skin's quite open. And so I worried a lot about that. So from the very beginning, one of the first products we launched actually was, complexion is more expensive because you have to make so many shades. Yes, of course. So it was not my first product, but I worked on it from the very beginning. Lip gloss was one of my first products. And it was because I had read something that said, if you wear lip product every day, you eat seven pounds of it a year. I don't know if that's true, but. I mean, it makes perfect sense. But it makes perfect sense, right? And I thought, oh gosh, like if that's true, then we should be really thoughtful about what we're putting on our lips. And I always, and the truth is like, if my daughter has quite severe eczema and if it wasn't for that, I don't know if I would have felt so motivated to work on, because I kept thinking, what would she use when she gets older? I have eczema, but hers was, hers is eczema that turns into vitiligo. So it feels much more severe because actually it's an abs, you can see it. For me, it goes, it comes and it goes and it will heal. For her, it doesn't really heal. Yes, right, okay. Sorry, I just missed the question. No, no, no, you're fine. I lost my train of thought, sorry. You're fine. It was, we were talking about the lip gloss was the first product. Oh, my first product. Yes, yeah, yeah. So then the other first product we had is our SOS spray, which is our number one selling product, which is the one that you're in. That is what I had to buy when I went on a photo shoot to Miami. I had strict instructions to get into support. I'm so pleased you're here now. Yeah, yeah. It's done me a huge favor. So our SOS spray, what happened was we were working with a creative on the line in general, like logo and those types of things. And she had said to me, she's like, you're talking about your eczema. And I think that this product I have might help you. It's, her husband was a surfer and he was using it for his reef cuts. And it was an antibacterial, anti-inflammatory product. And it has hypochlorous acid in it. And I was like, what is this? And so I started looking at it and I used it on my face and my body and it didn't work on my face, but it helped my body. And I was like, what is this product? I've never heard of the ingredient. And I started calling around and talking to a few chemists I know, and they referred me. And I ended up meeting a guy who'd been working on hypochlorous acid to stabilize it for like eight years. So hypochlorous acid is this ingredient that hospitals have been using for centuries to help with wounds and things like that. Because it's a 100% natural, 100% effective, but really gentle antibacterial and anti-inflammatory. And like doctors even will like irrigate. So like if they're in surgery, they'll pour it into your body. It is that safe. And, but the problem with it, the reason why it hasn't been commercialized is because it's also very hard to stabilize it. And it needs to be pure. And so I found this chemist, I started working on it. I literally had him make me, we kept working on it until we found, we started using one on my face and it started to work. And I was like, wait, I think there's a there there. And so he made me a hundred little bottles and I'll never forget, we put it into like just like a little printer. I made little labels and stuck a hundred labels and I had two interns at the time who are now still with me. They're still my employees, which is great. They were my first two employees. And we literally took these hundred bottles and we sent them to people that we knew. We just sent out an email to our friends and we said, who wants to try this? We don't even really know what it is. And the response was amazing. I mean, there was another girl that we had interning for us and she got a boob job. And after she got her boob job, she has the incision and the sutures and she sprayed it because she was like, you said it was an antibacterial and anti-inflammatory. And her doctor was like, no one's ever recovered so quickly. What did you do? Because if you think about it, these things like sutures are really invasive to your body. Your body is like, what, what is this? And a lot of the one thing that people don't want that when you have any type of surgery is infection, right? So your body is actually trying to reject the sutures. And so if you can help keep the area clean bacterially, and then if you can keep it calm, your body's like, okay, I know what to do. And it heals itself. I mean, how incredible. So you almost like built this focus group if you like, through your friends and having those different situations and you realize that this is working in lots of different. And that's how the customer told us what the product was and how to market it and what to use it for. And the customers sent us before and afters. And so that happened. The thing that really tipped things over the edge was during COVID, when we had COVID, people started buying our SOS spray for maskne. And when you're wearing a mask and you're still talking, you're still eating, that sounds so gross, but it's. I remember, I remember my skin suffering when we were doing the masks. Well, it's just not breathing too, right? Yeah, of course, of course. And so that was when we really, again, started realizing there was a product market fit because we would seed essential workers, we would seed nurses, and this was just being online. We had, by the way, launched in all Sephoras in March of 2020. I thought the whole business was over because we, and if you remember, we didn't know how long it was gonna last. And it kept extending. It kept going and going. And the majority of my inventory was sitting inside stores that weren't open. And so I thought at the time, I was like, I guess we're done for. Like, it's just, there's nothing I can do. Oh, I'm working so hard to get this to launch. And I had a similar situation. I have a baby toiletry brand, and we launched in the February. So I remember us being in stores for four weeks. And there was this, you know, everything goes into getting everything out there. And then lockdown happens. But actually, and I'm with you, I thought that was the end. I thought that was it. You know, we've launched and we're in a global pandemic. We don't know how long we're here for. I'm just gonna, it's one of those things that's gonna be very upsetting. But what do I do? And actually, it meant that we developed this really like cult customer because at the time we launched in Boots, which are like pharmacies here. But they were like one of the only places that were staying open. Because you could go to it. Yeah, but at the time, obviously, we didn't know. And it meant that everybody was a little bit more considered when they were shopping. And it ended up weirdly being the thing that really made it happen for us. Yeah, it's crazy how these things. You couldn't have predicted maskne. No, 100%. No one would have thought we'd all be wearing masks and getting maskne, right? Yeah, I mean, that's what like when they say like rejection is redirection. I think it's really true sometimes. And knowing how to sort of handle the situation. And that is a big situation to handle first, for your first big thing, a global pandemic. But it is crazy. Our first products that we launched, those two products are still some of our most popular products. SOS Spray is our number one selling product. It's a number one toner at Sephora. That's so interesting. I mean, it's absolutely incredible. So you spoke about your two interns at the time that are still with you. We have lots of listeners that are looking to launch and are in the position where they might have taken on investment or they might have sold their house to make this happen or however that looks. What did you focus on in terms of hiring upfront? So where did you, you obviously had your expertise and brought an insane amount of knowledge to the table, but how did you know what was gonna be the right first hire for you? So, first of all, I don't know if anyone knows the right anything, but I think you try some things. Absolutely. You kind of go into it. And this is something I actually feel very passionately about. When I really believe in, especially women, making sure that they continue to control their companies. I think it's really important. Some of the people that I think are the most unhappy as founders are the ones who unknowingly have lost control of their companies because they didn't understand what they were signing when they, I don't know, when they raised money or whatnot. But going back to the question about the people, which to me kind of goes hand in hand, it's really important to understand what your risk tolerance is in terms of money and what you're spending. And I've made every wrong decision on the people side. So I've hired someone with a really big resume that came from an incredibly successful background, but didn't understand how many resources they needed in order to do their job. Because sometimes you can be the right person, but at the wrong time. If you need seven people below you and you can't roll up your sleeves and get in there, we're not compatible for each other. Particularly not in a startup. In a startup. And so now I actually am so careful about the way that I even portray the opportunity. That's interesting. Because I think- When hiring, you mean. When hiring, because I also don't wanna pull a bait and switch. I don't want to sell something and then have it be very different than what they anticipate or expect. So for a first hire, I think in the beginning, what you need is, you really need what I like to call a Swiss army knife. You want someone who can do a lot of different things, has that, I would trade will for skill in the beginning. Someone who just really wants to do, believes in what you're doing, and wants to be part of the journey, and is willing to do kind of anything. And so I think that's really important in the beginning. What happens as you get bigger, and as your business grows, is you need that depth. You need people who are not just Swiss army knives, but can do something and do it really, really well. And that is something that changes over time. Like you say, when it's a startup, those roles will naturally progress, and they need to be more honed in on a certain, of course, because then there's opportunity for lots more roles to happen. But at the start, it is all hands on deck. It is all hands on deck. It really is that. And we spoke a lot, actually. I had Radhi Devlukh here on, and she speaks really well about hiring. She hires energy over skill, because she really believes that, that actually energy can really encroach on a team. Totally, oh, 100%. Someone comes in with bad energy, and every day that kind of drains a little bit out of everybody else. And it's really easy to spot, though, right? No, and I mean, it is, but you have to also trust yourself, because, and I always say, the whole hire slow, fire fast. Yes. And it's not easy. It's not easy. I think especially because, I don't know, I've tried really hard to, over time, prioritize wanting to be respected over being liked. Yes. And I think that's a really difficult thing. But I take hiring with a lot of responsibility. It's important to me that I can, and I've never been in a situation where I couldn't afford to continue paying someone. I think that would be really hard for me. But I have definitely had to let people go, because it was the wrong fit. Yes. And that's my fault, at the end of the day, right? Like, either I misunderstood what that person's skillset was, or where we were in terms of our journey, and what the fit was, but you, I agree with Roddy, like, you really, the will part is more important than the skill in the beginning, a lot of times. And it's that feeling, isn't it? And you, like you say, that you might have misplaced that, and I think we have all done that as founders, right? And every time I look back, and I'm like, I knew. I knew. There was always that thing. I knew, I just didn't want to know. Yes, it's so true. I knew, but I was doing this. Yes, or like, it's like, I don't know, like that girl who really wants to get married, you know, like, when you're like, you're like, I'm whatever age I am, and I just feel like I'm supposed to, and so I need to, I start changing. And I knew he perhaps wasn't right for me, but I wanted to be married so bad. I wanted that life versus the person who you were in it with. And there've been times where I've been like, looking and looking and looking, but I just hire someone because I'm like, this is good enough. And this is gonna work. While this is gonna happen, it's gonna be great. And I can make it work. But then, like you say, you're never surprised when it doesn't quite work out because you knew. You just wanted it more. You always knew. You wanted it more. So, you launch in the April, and then by September of the same year. Yeah, 2019. You are in Sephora. Yeah. Now, obviously now, and we spoke a lot about you being in Sephora, and now that's really kind of part of you, and it's such a perfect fit in terms of a retailer. Like, it's like the dream team. You can really feel that. What was the first moment like for you when Sephora pushed the button? I mean, so Sephora, I've worked in the industry for a long time, and Sephora's the only consistent thing I've worked with. So, I've worked in skincare. I've worked in color. I've worked, you know, but every brand I've worked with has worked with Sephora. And so, I felt like it was almost this home to me where it felt very comfortable, but it was also my dream. And it's really weird to do this thing. Like I was saying, even about launching in the UK, I've gone into Sephora and I've gone to that, you know, the offices, the corporate offices. I've gone to so many times for someone else in my job, but to do it as a founder is really different. But very genuinely, it's been my dream. So, it's very natural too. Absolutely that. But I can imagine that first getting the confirmation, like you say, being your dream, but having the experience of these other brands, but getting that first confirmation. And by the way, I didn't know that they were going to say yes to me. I mean, I knew that I was friendly enough with the team that I knew they would take a meeting with me. Yes. But Sephora likes to say that it is harder to get into Sephora than it is to get into Harvard. And I did not go to Harvard. So, I don't know. But, so I didn't necessarily think that I was going to. going to get in, and I'm still really grateful. Yeah, and of course, and like you say, you might have had experience with them, and getting yourself a meeting is very different to being in that window, isn't it? Of course, you might know somebody to have to take a meeting with, but that doesn't mean that it's gonna be any more than that. Well, and then I think some people think once you get into Sephora, all of a sudden, you're just like, the money is just raining down on you. And like, and that's not really true either. It's like, then the work begins. Yes, absolutely, and to keep it where it is, and to keep up that momentum, right? It doesn't all finish once you make that window, and that then happens. It's constantly letting people know, and then you're also, by default, because you're in a retailer, you're in competition with other brands, and there's shelf space, and everything else in between. And isn't that life? I mean, like, even here, right? We just launched, and the windows look great, and everything looks great, and we were at lunch with the Sephora team, and we were like, okay, so now that we did launch, how do we sustain? Absolutely, and it's so funny, because that's the tale of it, isn't there? You're like, you have these big activations, and these moments that you've waited for, and then it is like, what's next? You've just launched here. Have you taken a moment to celebrate, and to kind of live it a little bit? Because that's something that we also don't do, right? We're always thinking, like you say, how do we, okay, great, how do we sustain? No, I think I used to, for a long time, I think I tried very hard to live in the middle, where I didn't let, I was like, don't let the big be too big, and don't let the small be too small. And honestly, 2025 has been a little bit a rough one, and I'm trying to have a different attitude around it, where I think you actually have to feel the highs, you have to enjoy them, you have to celebrate them, or else you can't sustain the lows. And also, there are going to be lows, and of course, and we know that not every high is gonna be as high, so it is important to acknowledge, and be present, and take it all in, because on the day that the lows are here, you remember that there are highs ahead. It's important to do that. Acknowledge the hard work, and the success, and everything else in between. And I also am realizing that I have to do it not just for myself, but for my team. We had somebody come in and do a coaching session for us, a management training, and they were telling, this woman, Robin, was explaining that people are hardwired so that they need to hear seven positive things for any constructive thing, or else they can't hear it. Because you have to be in a place where you can trust the other person. You have to feel safe. And unless you feel safe, you're not able to hear anything constructive. And so often when we hear the word feedback, I think we automatically think it's going to be negative. But actually, our jobs, much like being a parent, so much of what we need to do is reinforce with positive feedback, and not just think all the time about, oh, I wish I could change this thing. Yes, you're so right. What does your day-to-day role look like now? Like, I suppose you're five, six years in. What does your day-to-day role look like now? And has it changed? Yeah. Surprisingly not. Well, it's different. Yeah, so it's different, right? So I would say five, six years ago, I probably had three employees. So the first two girls I hired, and never had a job before. They started as interns. They had just graduated from college. My third employee was my nanny. So it was during COVID, and she, I thought, well, if I'm gonna keep paying you, I might as well just have you. I trust you. I might. Yeah, exactly. I trust you. Do you wanna write some orders for me? Like, and so she is now our operations manager. But because I hired so young in the beginning, I was really involved from the very beginning. And I would say there are certain areas that, and then I hired more senior roles in the areas that I don't know anything about, and I don't care to know anything about. So I hired a VP of Ops real quick. I don't want anything to do with operations, to be honest with you. And so I hired a VP of Ops that I'd worked with for a long time, and she's terrific. But today, the biggest difference is, as the company's grown, I think my number one job is really the team. So it is everything from, I do all of the hiring, I'm involved anytime, even if I'm not the one, the manager, who needs to do a performance thing or fire someone, I'm still super involved. And then I think, and I care so much about the people who come in the door. I don't care what level it is. I still have to know who that person is. I still have to interview them. And then I think a lot about the culture. So we do a lot of things for the culture. I care a lot about, like, we have values, how we support those values. And then I actually am very involved in all things product development, all things creative, all things sales. And I suppose it's like you say, when you think about Tower28 being that startup to being all hands on deck, hiring young, really kind of, I suppose, hand-holding to a degree at the start. And when you've got that team that's now flourishing, and the success of the brand, you can hire more kind of those honed in roles, but also you can go back to those things that light you up and that you love. Like you say, the team and the values and the product, and concentrate on that rather than the day-to-day detail. I mean, I find that it's sort of yes and, right? You end up doing, you can't totally remove yourself from anything, right? Like everything is my fault. If it doesn't, you know what I mean? Ultimately, yes. All of it is my fault. So it's, you can't remove yourself from it. So you have to be in the day-to-day, but then you also have to be able to zoom out. And you're right. There's a bit of it where you handhold when you need to, but then you also have to be willing to let go. Like I genuinely think it's like, it's not fun to be in any job or part of a team if you don't get to put your thumbprint on it, right? Absolutely that. And I think that's when you know that you have an incredible team. If you need to say, okay, guys, I'm in London this week and I'm doing X, Y, and Z, but you know that's when you've got a good team because you don't need to handhold and be there. And I've never believed in genius and isolation. Like I really believe that even if I have a great idea, it will get so much better if we all work on it and kind of iterate on it. Yes, absolutely that. I wanna do our rocket round now, which is a quick fire round. And I ask every guest the same question. So the first one is, what do you believe are the non-negotiables for launching a business? Oh, I believe- I'm like the first one, it's just a quick one. It's quite a big question. I have so many of them. I would say really top line, I think the team is a non-negotiable. You have to have a team that cares. I think you can pay people to do their job, but you can't pay people to care. And that energetically is very important for you too, as a founder. The other thing I would say is unit economics. And I think that's something we don't talk about enough. A lot of people, and I work with a lot of founders as well, but a lot of people tend to think like, oh, as we get big, this will scale. Economies of scale will fix this. I truly don't think it does. If you can't get it to work on like the 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 piece level, I really generally, and it may be every industry is different, but in beauty, 10,000, 50,000, it doesn't, you save money, but not that much money, right? So you need to be able to make money from the gross margin. Yes, absolutely that. Yeah, we've not had that one before. Yeah. No, I love that. When did you first realize that you truly launched? Oh, I remember it so clearly. I was at, oh, I have two memories. One, I got a text from one of the girls on my team who was managing the website, and she sent me this text, and we still have it in my screenshot of it. She's like, oh my God, we got our first order. That isn't Victor, my husband. I love that. She's like, someone we don't know bought something. Someone we don't know just found us. And I thought that was so exciting. And then I'd gone to, I think it was pizza or something, maybe a couple of weeks later with my kids, and my daughter looks over at the person next to us and is like, that person is using the lip gloss. And we saw them putting it on, and we were all staring at her. She was like, what, who are these people? And we never even said, by the way, we never stopped her. We never said, by the way, that I'm the founder, you know, nothing. We just let her, she was like, just doing it. We stared at her. We just stared at her. Yes, that's so funny. But seeing it in the wild for the first time on someone you don't know is like huge. It's a huge moment. Like you say, other than people that are your friends or supporting because they kind of have to to a degree. Absolutely, those first orders and seeing it in the wild the first time, that does hit different. What's the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed? I go on a walk with my husband. So my husband's our CFO. Oh, amazing. And despite that, we sit on very opposite sides of the office. We don't talk to each other at work, almost at all. And the only time we talk to each other is in the morning, really. So we go on a walk for like at least an hour. So nice. At like, I mean, we literally watch the sun come up together. It's so early in the morning. And we take my dog out and it's something I'm really proud of because, you know, it's important to have, the business part is lovely, but it's really important to me that I still have a happy marriage and a happy home. Absolutely. And he has been consistently the person in my life who has said to me, even with success, it could all go away and we'll be fine. Yes. And it's knowing that. And it's so, that's such a privilege in itself to know that you have that. And you'll always want to kind of honor that. And like you say, make time for that. Because that is what's important, isn't it? To make time. Yeah. And I think we all, like the goalpost moves. You keep thinking, like I remember when I was so excited when our sales were very different on a weekly basis and you just, you get accustomed to something else and then you worry that you're going to lose it. Yeah. And I don't know, it's something that's really important to make sure you continue to invest in your personal life. And if you take it all away tomorrow, that you have that. You're the same person. And that's the root of it all and it's still there. And then your other question, what do I do at night? Ironically, my husband hates this. I have. You can't have it all. You cannot have it all. So I do start and end my day with him. I have this red light machine that, do you know Namvo? Namvo really recommended I get this. It's a Saluma, I should be endorsed. It's a Saluma red light machine, which is very expensive. And I think because I spent so much money on it, I'm committed to it. And I will, sometimes I'll even listen to a podcast actually, as I fall asleep. And I will fall asleep with the red light machine on. Amazing. This is so interesting you say, it's because I've asked for that very machine for our wedding anniversary. So that is ironic. I'm obsessed. This is your sign. Yes, exactly that. I'm obsessed with red light. And I want that big machine and I wanna like meditate in front of it and do the most and listen to the podcast. Well, he hates it because it's, I think it's quite bright for the other person. It's quite aggressive if you're not in it. I think for the other person in the room, it's really bright. You're not absorbing it. I have the masks and I have both, but I want the panel. Oh no, I have the panel. Yes, that's what I've asked for for our wedding anniversary. There you go. He's gonna regret that. I'll make sure he doesn't listen to this before. What's one piece of advice that you wish that you hadn't listened to? One piece of advice I wish I hadn't listened to. I think in general, oh, that's such a good one. People give you a lot of advice. A lot. And I think it's hard. Sometimes advice is good, but it's just the timing of it. So when I can think of is so many people told me to invest ahead and to spend more money on talent, to spend more money on everything very upfront. And sometimes I wish I had done that because it's too late by the time you do. But at the same time, I think the reason I, so I own the majority of my company. I control my board. I am very much in charge. And I think had I invested ahead in a big way, taken money before I was ready to, had I raised too much. So many people said I should just raise more money and spend more money early on. I wouldn't be in control. Yes. Yeah, that's a really, really fair point. And like you say, you do get given so much advice. And we spoke before about it becoming really noisy and really distracting and everyone having an opinion. Yeah, and it has to be bespoke to your situation. I think so often people speak from, again, you can only give advice based on your own experience. But your experience could be very different from somebody else's. And your risk tolerance could be very different from someone else's. I mean, I look at some people who own, I don't own 100% of my company. I look at other people who are like, I risked it all and I put it all in my credit card and I did this in my garage and I own everything. And I'm like, and some people are very successful having that happen. I was never able to do that. I was never able to be someone who was in debt. Yes. I just couldn't, I couldn't live that way. But everyone has a different risk tolerance. Exactly. So you just have to listen to yourself. Yeah, and like you say, it's just so, so relative to the individual and knowing what is right for you ultimately because that might have been right for the person giving advice, but not you and your situation. Well, I also think sometimes like we, like not everybody needs or wants a billion dollar exit. I think there's nothing wrong with having a nice business that pays, that takes care of your life. Yes, and exactly that. Not everybody has the aspiration to be kind of, like you say, that billion dollar business. It's just to have a nice lifestyle and enjoy what you do, right? Totally. Because of course, that always comes with more stress. What's a skill that you'd love to learn? I don't know how to meditate. I've always wished I could be someone who knows how, I'm learning. I'm trying to learn how to calm my mind more and not be constantly in a phase of like, what do I have to do next? What do I have to do next? And it wandering off. Yes, presence. Yes, exactly that. That's what I, I did this whole, I can't remember what you, it wasn't a sound bath. It was a, I did this whole ceremony with my sister and I can't, it's escaped me, what you call this practice, but it was like meditation on a different level and it was like a two hour session. Was it a breath work? Yes, breath work session, but really deep breath work meditation. And I was like, this is not gonna happen for me because I start like, there's like almost a shopping list in my mind of things that I need to do or things I haven't sorted. And my husband occasionally will be very kind and treat me to a massage. And sometimes it's lovely, but I don't find it relaxing because I sit there and I think, and I lay there and I'm like, okay, what do I need to do? What haven't I done? But actually up front, she said to me at the start, the first 25 minutes, you'll really just think about everything else. And after that, it all was slowly, slowly, slowly sort of decrease. And it's so true. That first 25 minutes, once that's out the way, your mind wanders a little less. Yes. And she kept saying to me, whatever it is that comes into it, imagine a box next to you and just put it in there even for a minute. So that was quite a good tip. And since then I've become better at being able to meditate because thoughts are gonna come in, but don't freak out because of it. Just try and put it somewhere and say that you acknowledge that in a minute. And try and get in it. Well, and isn't that the goal is that it's just getting better? Yes, exactly that. Just even if it's a little bit. Switching off is not easy, is it? It's not the easiest. What's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started your business? I think people did tell me a lot of things. People are very open with their opinions, right? It's like childbirth, isn't it? When you're pregnant and everyone says, well, gives you the horror stories. It's so much like parenthood to be honest with you, right? Where you can have somebody tell you all of the things, but you can't. I remember taking a breastfeeding course before I had children. And then I had kids who didn't have any problems. And it was like, you learn all the things that might happen. And you're like, well, my kid actually didn't have any of those problems. So I learned all of that for no reason. So I don't know. I mean, there was a lot of advice that was given to me and a lot of things that were said, but I kind of think you learn and you try to prepare, but when you get there, you just sort of, you'll learn the lessons you need to when you need them. And it's like learning your business. I remember my mom, when I had my first child and I was like, oh my gosh, and I don't know this, I don't know that. And she was like, Rochelle, you will learn your baby. Like I could have the baby for you tomorrow. And every one of them is different. And every one of them is different. And you could have a best friend with a baby at the same age and you couldn't look after hers and she couldn't look after yours because you're gonna want different things. And I think, like we said, it's a lot similar to having a business. You have to learn your own business and who you are in it. And who you are exactly and you find yourself in, they say that you find yourself in founding your business. And I really think that is so true. So, so true. Dream collab. What would the dream collab for Tower 28 be? Oh, hmm. Like, I don't know, from an ambassador perspective or for like a collab with another brand. I think we're in this era, aren't we? We've seen brands collab together. Yeah, totally. We do a lot of collabs. We actually have a really exciting one coming out at the end of this year, which is pretty cool. Dream collab. I mean, my daughter's dream collab for us that she keeps mentioning is that she really wants us to do something with Mad Happy. Okay, there you go. Yeah, so I don't know. I'll say her answer. You've got a good focus group there, haven't you? Yeah. Like what good ages, brilliant ages. And then lastly, if you could choose one female figure as a mentor, past or present, who would it be? I just met Sarah Blakely recently. And I was, I think I've been so impressed with her in general, not just because she was successful, more so because I think what she has done with her wealth and her influence, I've been so impressed with in terms of her encouraging other people, being a resource. She's done a lot of things that I find really inspirational. She's so impressive, isn't she? I think everyone on the outside is like, I've never met her, but looking in from the outside, she just seems like an incredible human. What a woman. And when I met her, though briefly, she just seemed like the same person I expected her to be. Yes. Which was really nice. This is amazing because I say never meet your, never meet your heroes, don't they? Because you're like, well, this disappoint you, but she didn't. That's exactly what you want. Each episode, I get our guests to leave a tip, like a tangible piece of advice to a listener, perhaps looking to launch a business in a similar vein, not knowing whether they should take a risk or not. If you could leave one tip for a lady looking to launch, what would that be? I think one of the, I'm gonna say something different than I normally say. I think it is really important to find someone to share your life with. And it is, and even if it is a friend, I think it is really important to find someone who you can really go on the journey with, who can tell you if it all goes away, it's going to be okay. I think it is really, I don't think I realized until I started doing this, how much of your own mental capacity and how much of that affects your business. I mean, if I can tell, there was a moment at the beginning of the year, I was living in the Palisades. And so our house, we can't live in our home anymore. And then the tariffs and. all these things and I could feel myself have a more frenetic energy or like just feel overwhelmed and I could tell that my team could feel it and so your energy impacts the same way that we talked about wanting to hire people who have good energy you have to take care of your own energy because if you walk into a room and you have a certain energy it is more impactful to the rest of the team than anyone else and so I think that is the thing is like having someone who can be your person who can I don't want to say put you in check but give you that solace back into the room yeah and just recognize who you are who it's okay to be that person and we all veer but someone who can say like hey you're off yes like what do you need somebody needs to take care of you and it's having that real honesty and that transparency and that real kind of yeah honest sounding board that you can yeah lean on yeah yeah that's really really important and then lastly keep it a little bit light at the end um we talk about ladies who launch but we also like to know what you eat in your lunch hour ladies who lunch ladies who literally every I'm always so intrigued how people spend their lunch hour and what I think is one thing that's pretty unanimous when we're talking to female founders or ladies in business is that actually none of us really take a lunch hour I don't take a lunch sometimes we try and some days it's nice but how do you typically spend a lunch hour where are you how does it look and what would you order yeah I wish this was going to sound more inspirational it's not I typically don't take a lunch I typically am in meetings or um and I typically eat some kind of a salad with chicken on it it's so funny and an iced tea yes I'm a nice unsweetened iced tea oh nice or a matcha yes there we go I'm with you on the matcha yeah it's so funny because we the conversation varies some people really do take a break and make that you know get out of the office and have a walk and or like take a staff member out for lunch and yeah which is great but I would say 90% of our guests we've now started calling them sexy salads yeah yeah so we have like a salad and not something like a salad can still taste good right we can still have all the things in it and the nice dressing and everything so we're calling them sexy salads but yeah 90% of our guests are doing a salad by the desk well at least me makes me feel a little bit less alone yeah yeah don't worry about there's not an elaborate three-course meal happening for everyone's lunch um thank you so much I've really really enjoyed this it's so nice to get to know you and hear more about Tower 28 and I can't I can't wait for you the success just keeps growing and congratulations on launching here it's incredible and I'm so pleased I haven't got to go to Miami to be able to make my children happy so thank you very much thank you oh that was lovely thanks guys there we go thank you don't forget to follow us on apple and spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss out because next time we're going to be joined by another incredible lady if like me you're a watcher then follow us on youtube and please don't forget to like and subscribe you