Ep 33: S&P Global, First Factory, and Proxima

Hello and welcome to the scope 3 podcast. I'm Oliver Hari and I'm Tom Eidl. If you're trying to solve supply chain emissions reduction in your organisation, this is the podcast for you. And if you're looking for honest, helpful and human stories, insight, tips, advice and ideas for getting to grips with scope 3, this is definitely the podcast for you. And if you need some help navigating all of those solutions, platforms, technologies, all claiming to solve the scope 3 challenge, this is absolutely the podcast for you. This is the scope 3 podcast. Thanks for joining us. Great to have you on board. Welcome back to the scope 3 podcast, Oli. It's been too long, mate. How are you doing? I'm too bad. Great summer. Great summer. Yeah, went galvanic round to the place and watched the emails fill up in the inbox and tried not to care about it, but I'm not sure I succeeded there. So hard. So hard. Who put New York climate week straight after holidays? That's all right, I wouldn't know. But yeah, it's all good. It's all good. There's been a lot going on. Yeah, the world seems to have kept turning, even though we've stopped, but the podcast has stopped, but indeed, mate, we'll get onto the whole New York thing. We have got a great episode coming up. We've got four gents with us this time. So you spoke to the guys Andrew and Don, who were a great team, and we found out all about the kind of supplier relationship there, which I think is going to be more of a kind of theme for this podcast going forward. Yes. Exactly. The supplier voice is something we've gone on about, and I've gone on about a long time. And I think whenever you hear suppliers talk about their experience of decarbonisation, whether they're with their buyers or not, it's always enlightening because we don't walk enough in the shoes of suppliers. I think that's safe to say and just go through the people sat there working and trying to engage suppliers. Don't always appreciate what it's like to be on the other end of the end of it all. So yeah, Andrew and Don were brilliant. Don was great. I mean, you know, he was, he was an example of a model supplier, I think, especially service and tech supplier. I think he was saying all the right things and I think he did a fantastic job. So yeah, it would be interesting to see what people think of that. And we're obviously looking for more. If other people want to come on and bring their suppliers, whether that's for the podcast or our big strategy days, I think we need more of that supply voice. So, yeah, looking forward to more of this, hopefully. I got off that call after listening into you guys chatting. I thought, where does he find these blokes? It's just great. I'm thinking on the golf course, maybe. I don't know. Well, no, Andrew will be well known to everyone listening to the pod and he's an enthusiastic and supportive peer. He's always been there and thereabouts for everything we've been doing. But don't, yeah, I mean, I guess good people, a track good people, but the fact that they've ended up working together is not a surprise, but Don was great. And yeah, of course you've had a pair to talk to as well. Another pair of you know, Simon and Jamie. Yeah, we got into all sorts actually. So it's a really good chance. All that's coming up from from Proxima. You mentioned at the outset, then climate week in New York, coming up in a couple of weeks now or less than two weeks, actually, looking forward to it. I am. I, I, I, well, we're both going to be there. Rona is going to be there. Nancy is going to be there. So the, the, the growing scope through peer group alumni team, whatever you want to call it, is going to be there. So we're there on force. Nearly 300 peers have told us they're coming. So we have a huge list of people coming to New York. Of course, that means that everyone who's running at a event is desperate to have that list invited to it. So we put together an amazing tracker for this for the week, I think, which is full of great stuff. We're going to be making some recommendations. We're going to be doing some peer-to-peer networking. We're going to be encouraging peers to meet and have lunch and brunch and dinners because my feeling about New York climate week this, this year is that with less and less people able to speak openly, less and less people on stages, I think, I suspect. Well, certainly, less people on stage is able to say quite what they think. I think this is the climate week of meetings and workshops and action. I think this is, we are almost being forced to cut the BS and actually work together behind closed doors a lot more. That's the feeling I'm getting. So the very best sessions of the week that I've seen are ones where it's annoying that it's this invite-only element to it. But again, hopefully, I can get enough people through enough doors. But the fact that we can sit down and properly talk about, honestly, about getting stuff done, I think, is important. So I'm hopeful that we'll get a lot more action out of this per hour spent, working the streets and signing through security and so on. I think we should get more action coming out, but per hour spent in New York, I think. Indeed. Indeed. Well, of course, we will be there, recording a special couple of episodes of the pod out there, giving you all the insights and trying to capture the vibe, I guess, really, of what's going on the different events, the side events, the dinners and all that type of stuff. So look out for that. So the next time we come out, we'll be coming from New York, which will be very exciting. Exactly. So yeah, a couple of episodes and if people want to go involved in the episodes, let us know. We've got obviously lots of people going and lots of people have been in touch, but if there's anyone listening who wants to support the pod, obviously, that would be great. I mean, we're always welcome to that. New York's not cheap. Is it tough? That's true. If anyone wants to help towards our cause, they're very welcome to. But we're going to get a vibe. We're going to get a sense of what's going on. There's some great work we've got a big meeting with Mars about the Renewable's Acceleration Program. We've got great work with Bane and Terrillitic. We're supporting Watershed, we're supporting CO2 AI, Manufacture 2030 in town, Trio Renew, Schneider Electric. There's so many great people running great stuff during that week of all, putting some good stuff together. Dow, ABB, there's some big companies out there making some big statements. So we all want to involve as many of them as we can. So there'll be some great stories. So I think the plan is to get a sense of the vibe in a further episode. What's going on in New York and then have a really juicy, practical wrap up early the week after. That's the current thinking, isn't it? Yeah, looking forward to it. Good stuff. Right mate, we'll talk more about New York in due course, but let's get on with this episode. This episode of The Scope 3 Podcast is supported by our good friends at Proxima. Proxima is a consulting business specialized in procurement supply chain and supply chain sustainability. 70% of the costs of a typical business is money that's spent with suppliers. And so Proxima helps organizations to unlock the full potential of their suppliers. And it does this through a comprehensive suite of procurement and supply chain services that focus on cost capability and sustainability transformation. If you want to find out more, head to the website ProximaGroup.com. That's ProximaGroup.com and get in touch with the team today. Now, the conversation you're about to hear reflects something we've wanted to do more of on the podcast. Yes, we're putting the spotlight on companies and targets, frameworks or policies. And we're also shining a light on the actual people behind them, the human side of Scope 3. But this time, we get to really examine the relationship side because we all know none of this stuff gets done without trust and transparency and a bit of healthy back and forth between buyer and supplier. So this time, Oli is joined by two fantastic guests, Andrew Bear, head of Sustainable Procurement at S&P Global and Don Gregory, Chief Operating Officer at First Factory, a long-term technology partner of S&P. And this isn't just a one-off chat. These two have worked together for years. And what you're here is a window into what a functioning, collaborative, honest, buyer-supply relationship actually sounds like and looks like when sustainability is on the table. They get into it, the expectations, the friction, the learning curve, the value of staying curious when a big survey lands in your inbox with questions about carbon footprints. Don doesn't sugarcoat it. His first reaction was basically, do you really have to do this? But what followed was a conversation, not a checklist, that made all the difference. So you're going to hear how First Factory, which is a mid-sized software development company, navigated its way from that initial moment of hesitation all the way to becoming a carbon neutral company within a year. And not because someone banged their fist on a table, but because there was dialogue, there was flexibility. There was a shared commitment to do things better. So there's a lot in here for both sides of the supplier buyer coin. If you're a supplier, you'll hear what it feels like to be treated as a partner, not just a data point. And if you're a buyer, you'll hear how much more you get back when you start with curiosity instead of compliance demands. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this one. Here is. So something that is increasingly important to the skeptic peak group, and I think everyone that participates is really understanding the reality of the supplier experience and hearing the supplier voice. So something that Tom and myself have decided to do with the skeptic peak of any D, especially the skeptic podcast, is get the supplier voice. And even better if you've got the buyer and supplier voice on the same story, and even better if it's Andrew Bayer from S&P Global, who everyone I'm sure listening in and knows very well. But he's joined today by Don Gregory of first factory, one of his key suppliers. So welcome guys. Thanks for joining us on this special episode of the skeptic podcast. Thanks for having us great to be here. Yeah, thank you, Holly. Yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation. So what are we, let's do introductions. So, Andrew, do you want to start? Let's tell us a little bit about you and your background and who you are. Sure, sure. I have been in procurement for 20 years. About three years ago, I took over the role of sustainable procurement, head of sustainable procurement at S&P Global. I'm also the vice chair of the Sustainable Purchasing Leadership Council. And I spend a lot of my time trying to get companies to collaborate on reducing carbonization and decarbonizing these supply chain. Yeah, and I think you're a fan of collaboration. You're a fan of your positive enthusiastic face in a lot of my meetings, Andrew. So I'm always always appreciative of you. You and I talk about this a lot. I do have to say this, I have been dying to be on the podcast. This is my favorite podcast. And so Tom and Holly, thank you so much. Yeah, you need to get out more, Andrew. I think we all know that. That's true. You're your passion for this subject and you're turning up to far too many meetings that I run is almost unhealthy, I would suggest. But anyway, it's not just you here today. So we've got done, done. Great to meet you and delighted that Andrew's brought you along and working with you. So tell us a little bit about your background and who you are. Thanks, Ollie. So I'm Chief Operating Officer of First Factory. As you said, a vendor for S&P Global, we're a multinational software development company. So everything from AI, cloud, software development, product development. And I've been in this role at the company for eight years. Prior to that, I was a client of First Factory for eight years when I was executive director at Kaplan Test Prep and Admissions. And from there, it started in marketing and moved into operations and academics. And then ultimately was kind of running product development for internal applications. And I really understood software development through that process. But I also served on a number of task force in the organization. And one of them was really centralizing procurement vendors and processes, not just for Kaplan Test Prep and Admissions, but with a larger Kaplan Inc organization. And I really kind of didn't take things from the sustainability perspective. It's more of business efficiency and flexibility. But through that, there's choices that you get from point A to point B with less friction. And often, it's a better experience for the end user. And that kind of dovetailed very nicely with sustainability. And then personally, my wife and I both have been working from home for over eight years. When we moved, we got rid of a car. We only had one car for that long. We're living a smaller footprint and seeing more green and kind of just lifestyle kind of reflects a little bit of some of the choices we're making in business that just tends to be more holistic and more rewarding. And then when you look at running a company where 200 plus employees, we want a place for them to feel proud to work. And that leadership is thoughtful and responsible, not just on employee benefits, but how we engage with the community. And it's becoming more important, especially for the younger generation to sustainability and good choices in terms of our environmental footprint. So that's kind of where it was interested when the survey came through. But we talk about that at that point, but that's a little bit of my background. Yeah, excellent. There's something about the whole transition to working from home that's made people see work completely differently, isn't it? I think it's about work-life balance, but it's also appreciating all of the aspects of work and what it means to be working for a company that values you and values the environment and values everything around the community and everything else. So now I completely agree. Now I think a lot of people listening in and the aim of this conversation is to help shine the light on what a good relationship looks like between buyer and supplier. So I think a lot of people often wonder who are the people in suppliers that we need to engage. So maybe a little bit more about your role in a little bit more depth, John. So you're sort of COO, your kind of head of operations. So I guess you've come at it from trying to be in a more efficient business, but you've obviously got a customer role as well. Was sustainability given to you or did you take it? What would you say that balance was? I mean, there's luck in life, right? But you know, it's also luck really comes as the result of the decisions that you make and the openness that you are to see things that, you know, you are not necessarily fixated upon, right? And you know, one of the things that we are kind of lucky at is, you know, Jason, who's the founder and CEO, started the business 25 plus years ago, opened an office in Costa Rica 20 years ago. Costa Rica is the luck in this aspect, but you know, Jason chose it for, you know, relations and value, but not necessarily because it's, you know, 95 to 99 percent, you know, clean energy, you know, across the, you know, across the country. But that is really just, you know, an ethos that's carried through. So again, it's, it feels a little lucky, but, you know, it really is choices based on values that we each have. And sometimes we're just not quite sure that we're applying those values when making the decision. Here, you know, working with Andrew, you know, we got the survey and, you know, in all honesty, you know, my, my first response to these types of, you know, surveys or requirements is, oh, my goodness, do we have to do this? You know, what's the cost going to be? You know, we, you know, as we grow in mature as an organization, you know, when I started, we were 30 employees. And you know, you don't quite need sock to compliance. And you don't quite need, you know, cybersecurity. And you know, when you get the cybersecurity insurance, and it's, you know, X number of million dollars, it's fine. And then you get a big clients as you need to double that. And there's a cost to associate with it. And, you know, not just, you know, it does make the business better. And it makes us see the work that we do software development from a different perspective. And we can pass that on to the client. We build applications that are more secure, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, it's something where, you know, just for sock two, we had to engage a fractional CISO just still with us. And the auditors and a full-time person in a role that can kind of help us with mobile device management. You know, so generally these compliance types of requests, you know, do come at an increased cost. And often, you know, more headcount, which is harder to maintain. So that was the, you know, the initial apprehension. And, you know, over the years, you know, we're a software vendor, you know, our staff ebbs and flows based on, you know, S&P's needs. And at the time, you know, we were a smaller footprint with them. And the question is, okay, is this something we're going to need to do? And, you know, what is the, what is the hurdle to get to? What I did appreciate most from the initial survey was it wasn't just, you know, are you carbon neutral? What are your plans to get there? And that was it. There were a whole host of questions about what do you want to see from S&P as a company and as, you know, someone that's asking for your services. And how do you rate them on that? And I really hadn't had conversations with them, but it was the fact that this seemed like it was going to be a two-way dialogue. And then, you know, when I met Andrew, you know, and I really want to give Andrew a ton of credit, because it was really about the personal approach. It was, you know, here's what we're trying to accomplish. Not all of our vendors are going to have to be this to continue to work with this in the short term. It wasn't like, you know, make this checklist or you're out. And it just became a good conversation. And then last thing I'll say is, I knew that we had a light footprint, right? We, we've been doing work from home, you know, since before the pandemic as a split, you know, we run efficient, you know, we run lean, we moved a bunch of our infrastructure, you know, the clouds, we don't have to host servers and buy that kind of equipment. We try to like limit, you know, days in the office and shut the lights off, et cetera. And I figured that, you know, I have to talk with Andrew, you know, quantifying our light footprint might be an advantage for us and a way for us to differentiate ourselves from other, you know, vendors in the market and other companies like us. And so I saw it really as an opportunity, saying that if we can quantify this, because I don't know how to do that by myself, then maybe there's something there. And then we can talk about the results later and how we took it further. But that's really the success of, you know, how this ball got rolling. It was really the way that the questions were asked in this bidirectional conversation. And then Andrew really just being a steward in a champion and having a personal vested interest. So that was really, there was really critical force. And as a supplier, the last thing I'll say on this point is, you know, it's, it's not just, you know, we're open to negotiation, right? You know, so a lot of times, you know, you get larger companies and they get a procurement department. It's like, oh, these three companies just make the list based off of, you know, what you submitted. And it really is, if you start having a conversation with us, we can understand, you know, what the goal is and how to help with that. And then we may be flexible with it based on the position we're in, the opportunity, the people, the resources we have. So it really, you know, it's not just about filling out a form and feeling like you're cut out of the process if you don't make a cut. And many companies, especially in this highly unpredictable, you know, business climate right now are willing to be more flexible than they probably were in the past. And may have more services to offer that you don't recognize that could fill a number of other needs for you. Yeah, brilliant. And there's two things there that I think are really important. It's the realisation that this exercise isn't, or shouldn't be a chore, it's an opportunity. And it's the realisation that this isn't a send us some information, collect it and never hear from us again. There is a dialogue. There's an opportunity for you to feedback. So I think those things are really important. I bet this is music to your ears, Andrew, isn't he? Saying all right things and telling you a great story. So, well, let's just maybe take a step back and think about your expectations of your suppliers at S&P. So, what sort of things are you asking Don and others to do and why are you asking them to do it? Yeah. So, if I can step way back for it. So, first off, all of that is funny to me. And I've heard it before, but it's funny to me because the way that I met First Factory was I was brought to S&P Global to build an IT services category, supplier category, right? And I first talked to Jason when I was going to him and saying, "Hey, we need some financial relief." And he sat me down and explained exactly why he could not do that. So, it was, that was my introduction to them, but they've been a great partner. But if I step way back, when I became the head of Sustainable Procurement at S&P, I had to look at where we were. And we had a science-based target. In scope three, it was an engagement target. But we were not as far as some others I was seeing out there, right? I mean, we were pretty good, but we weren't as far as others. And so, when I looked at it from the scope three lens and specifically categories one and two, I had it decide, "What is it I do on from vendors?" And it could have been easy to say, "I just want 81% of my vendors to set science-based targets," right? And just let's check the box. But, but I got this job because I cared about it, because I was at a point in my career where I was saying, "I can't keep arguing over the last $5 on the table with First Factory or Amazon or whoever." And so, I had to think about what was really going to move the needle. And then looking at us, there were places we were mature, there were places we weren't. And we have a gigantic supplier base. It's 10,000 suppliers. Sure, there's companies with a lot more, but different types of companies, different sizes, different places in their climate journey. So, what is it that that I want? I wanted first to know where, where everybody was, not all 10,000, but where a lot of them were. And so, when I thought about how to approach the suppliers, it was, this is new to everybody. So, I can't just turn to them and say, "Give me your, your carbon footprint broken down, scopes one, two, and three." There were so many things it wasn't. So, it was a dialogue. It was, "Where are you? Here's where we are." If you were in my position, quite frankly, I was learning the job. So, if you were in my position, what would you do? And so, I do have to say, the other thing that happened was because I was new, I was asking everybody for advice, right? And that includes suppliers. And so, I spent a lot of times, a lot of time with suppliers, different suppliers. And the ones that resonated to me were Morrow, Sam Stark, a green project, a couple of others who were doing that similar type of thing because they were talking about where my head was going, which was, we've got to understand this first. And so, when I got together with Sam, that started things really rolling for me because green project came in and said, "Hey, these are the kinds of questions you can ask to get to where you want to be. This is how you can start to engage suppliers." And I could see a vision where I could scale that if it weren't. But I would also get that kind of, like what Don's talking about, that kind of white love or personal touch where we're talking about the right things. It seems like the pattern here is that you can't get away from the importance of having a proper conversation person to person. You can't treat this as a transactional relationship, whether it's you Don and Andrew with this challenge, this issue, or it's Andrew, you and the solutions that you're choosing to work with for Don, you have to have that support. This isn't an easy thing to solve. So, we talked a little about the obviously mentioned survey and the work that you're doing with green project technology. So, how do you guys interact? It sounds like you already knew each other. So, it sounds like there was a little bit of, you could reach out to Don and say, "Look, I don't just want to send you a survey. Let's have a conversation about it." So, it sounds like that relationship is quite important. But how do you guys interact regularly? Are there other procurement people involved? Or is it just you guys trying to work this out together? Yeah, I mean, in all honesty, I used to interact more with Don and Jason when I was on the buying side, right? But I think they had a more immediate relationship with the division that used their services, right? So, I would come in to help negotiate a contract or come in and see if they have the services for something new we would want to do. And I will say, like what I talked about with Jason before, Jason was always very sure of what he was selling. So, that's really who I interacted with more at first, right? And Jason was very firm about this is what I'm selling. This is what my costs are, but he was also pretty open about it, right? And so, as Don and I got to know each other more, that came out of, as buyer for me, it came out of working with somebody who I trust, a company that I trusted anyway, right? I will say, we sent out a survey before we started with Green Project, and it actually went from our CFO. And Jason called me and said, "You want me to do another survey?" Jason's going to love this podcast. I think you touched on a couple of things. Number one is really the trust, right? And trust in any relationship comes from communication. And, you know, our goal here has always been long-term relationships, right? We don't want the quick buck. We've got a client that's been with us for 13 years. And actually, Jason started Costa Rica with funding from a client. And they had sold. And then the guy that founded that company came back and just wrapped up a project with us. So, I mean, it spans 20 years. For us, the transparency is critical, right? Costa Rica, in Latin America, has the lowest poverty level, the highest rising middle class. It's more expensive than other resources, and certainly more expensive than outsourcing to India, the Philippines, Vietnam. But, you know, so I always feel like, and as part of the reason I'm in this particular role, is, you know, finance is a tool that helps drive business, and it isn't just about what's the cheapest option. It really is about, you know, I can pay more money for a resource, a service, whatever that may be. And I can spend more money on three people and get the job done with less oversight from me and less time. That may cost me less money than if I had six resources somewhere else. So, you know, we really try to talk about the value. And I think, you know, Jason has a lot of, you know, pride and also understands the craftsmanship of the people that we have working for us. That's saying, look, this isn't, you know, the cheapest option. It shouldn't be. That's not what we offer. You know, we're not, you know, don't give us a ticket and fix a bug, you know, in an application that's 15 years old built on technology that's 20, like we are helping make business choices and business impact. And if we can understand what your business goals are first, we can help you identify that this is the right technical path or execution to get there. So, I really value the opportunity to have conversations, not to, you know, it's not selling the service and trying to say why, but it is understanding what else you get for it and what we will guarantee that you will have in a partner to achieve those business results. And then, you know, as a company, yes, we have guarantees, you know, and we throw those in there, but it's really about long-term relationship and we'll always do what's right. And having the ability to have that conversation was really critical. So, you know, even though I was apprehensive at first, it's like, I'd rather get on on the phone or on the video call and let's chat before we make any decisions. And, you know, Andrew was, you know, happy to talk and then educate me along the way and I saw it as a great opportunity. Well, well, and if I can, if I can expand on that a little bit. So, first off, when Jason called me after the CFO sent out the note, first off, Jason called me, he was the only one who called me, right? And he really said, what is this about, right? But the other thing is, when we did that survey in 2024, I had the conversation with Don, right? And the conversation with Don was like, it was curious, right? It was cute. Like, what is it you're trying to accomplish here? What is it you're doing? How can we, and there was a how can we help? I want to juxtapose that to a conversation I had with another company where, so I just had the conversation with Don. I was like, oh, this is great. Another company's calling me. And, and the the founder of that company said, what do you want me to do? I own a Prius. What else do you want me to do? Right? And, and the message was, we're not going to do this, right? And, and so it is about those relationships, right? And that was, that was a company that was saying, look, I'm not, I'm not willing to have a relationship, right? And you go in one direction with, with that kind of company, and you go in another direction with a partner, right? I think there's an interesting thing there is that you, there's an assumption that curiosity on sustainability. If that is the attitude that you're taking Don and your business takes towards that, you know, the receiving of a survey, you can say that curiosity will also come when people want to solve problems or want innovation. You know, if it, I think it sets a good tone for the supplier to say, regardless of whether it's sustainability or new services or whatever it is, we're here to be curious about why you want that. We're here to be asking questions, rather than saying, no, we're not doing that. Yes, we're going to do that. It has to start with curiosity. I guess the message I'm getting here is that you guys having that relationship, having that curiosity, having that support and having that conversation is good. Obviously, that's tricky to be scalable. You can't talk to every Don, you can't talk to every Jason, but it sounds like the, the approach that you took Andrew was to work with a questioning, working with a survey, working with a platform that actually asked questions and showed a curiosity and encouraged a curiosity back by saying, what do you think of S&P? So I think that's also feels like the tone of supplier engagement is crucial here, not just the method, isn't it, by the sense of things. So yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, and I'll say in that particular project, we did a small project. It was our first time working with Green Project. I liked what Sam had to say, but there's still a bit of that, you know, make me, you know, make me see it kind of thing, right? And so we did it with a small enough group that we could have those kind of conversations. But the other thing, and this may sound like a bit of a commercial for Green Project, but the other thing with Green Project was they made me feel comfortable that they were going to be an extension of my team, right? So in that case, in that case, we went to about 100 or so suppliers, got 40 to go to a webinar, right? And of those 40, 12 took some action. 12 who didn't even know there was a journey wound up going on a journey to to count carbon, to count their carbon footprint, and some even going beyond that, which we'll get to in a bit. But so, so then this time, we're doing this again this year, and we sent a survey out to 1400 vendors and got 450 responses. So 32% response rate, not bad, right? But it's going to be interesting to see if we can have that we're already planning to not have as deep touch points with 450. I just don't know that it's scalable, but it'll be interesting to see where it goes. But Green Project allowed me to do it in that way, because I didn't have to have every conversation. And I'm sure Sam and the team at Green Project are very happy with all the kind words you're saying about them, but they are good guys that we all know all know really well. And so, Don, Andrews talked about you being a great supplier and a great engage. You already mentioned that other suppliers aren't quite as the same. Have you got experiences in terms of other clients? Have you seen other companies engage you on sustainability and perhaps not get it right? What sort of lessons would there be for the other Andrews of the world listening game in terms of how to do it well, then perhaps what to avoid doing? Is there any experiences and suggestions that you've had to say stay away from that approach? No, it's it's more just a highlight question that vendors will ask for. And no one has really done anything that is really bringing the entire extended team together to identify what the impact is. It's more discrete kind of tasks, but it really never evolves beyond that. So we really haven't seen a lot of people taking that leadership either. We're also in a time where high expense cuts across companies and you know, the business forecast is difficult. And I think these are the times where people kind of back off of some of those initiatives because they do feel that they only add expenses. And you know, talking about, you know, curiosity before, I mean, I do, I do see myself as a creative problem solver. And so, also, I'm responsible business executive. I'm not going to say immediately no to S&P, even if it's a small portion of our overall business of our 40 plus suppliers. I'm going to look at this and I think that you have suppliers should and say, okay, this relationship may not be worthwhile long term if this costs me X. But how do I grow this relationship, right? This is, you know, this is easier to potentially build a relationship that you have a foundation under than go find new clients. And is there a way to expand that relationship? And that's a responsibility. I think that vendors need to take. So, you know, to say like, I'm not going to do it sort of flat out without knowing what's expected and knowing what efficiencies you can gain as a business, I think is, I'll say irresponsible. But, you know, for me, one of the things we learned, you know, I said we were lean to begin with, I didn't realize that, you know, we also work with a number of organizations, you know, women in technology and other, you know, serving under privilege areas that we donate equipment to. And, you know, that actually counts toward, you know, credit, you know, you're not throwing things out, and you're reusing it. And we kind of looked at, you know, our office footprint. And, you know, even though it's a rented space, we're looking to say it's too much space. And this is sort of beyond what we've accomplished during that initial survey and that year following. And we're not going to move to a smaller space. And, you know, not only is it going to be, you know, we'll control it, it's small with footprint, it's less electricity, it's less expenses for the company, it's efficiency. And, you know, there were certain areas and we were, or digital company, you know, we use Google Workspace. But there were still places where we had, especially in Costa Rica, things need to be signed by hand. And we needed to print things and have copies of it. And we worked to find out like what do we need for digital signatures that were different than, let's say, DocuSign and ultimately get to that point. And when I look at the efficiency of that process, you know, the time it takes to make an offer to an employee or get a contract out to one of our suppliers and get it back signed is a lot faster. And I look at those efficiencies and not needing to order toner and paper. And they're small, but it really for me is it's about getting from point A to point B faster, more consistently across the organization so that we, you know, just run a tighter operation and more predictable. And I think those are some of the lessons that we learned through this process was our remote first, our, you know, donating equipment, recycling equipment, you know, looking at approved efficiencies just made us a stronger organization and reduced our costs overall. And because we were lean and got leaner, our cost to offset our impact was was even reduced even further than we can talk about that later. Yeah, sounds great. Sounds great. And just final, maybe a little question for you, Don, as well. But a reflection, Andrew, that you and I have talked about the scope that he could be growing in terms of companies with more tech and service-based supply chains. So more and more people are concerned about the missed climate reduction or emissions reduction opportunities for companies with more services and tech. I'm just curious, Don, from your perspective, obviously software, AI, data centers, huge consumers of increasingly of water and energy. And you get, you know, we're seeing more and more stories about, you know, the tech industry potentially being the same view of the planet, but also the stress and the strains and obviously benefit from the cost to reach every renewable energy piece. But what are your thoughts on that? And do you think as much that your industry can do or could be doing better to kind of tell a better story or do better? Yeah, it's a really interesting question. And, you know, there's always tension, right? I mean, we are we are humans. We are going to consume, you know, and I remember, you know, Ivan Schwinard, a Patagonia, you know, just sort of tread lightly, tread lightly as we can on the earth. Like we make products like we're going to take from the environment, we're going to have waste, but we need to do so responsibly. When we choose, you know, vendors for data centers and other services, we need to kind of look to see where they are. And, you know, there's this double and sort of, you know, most of the suppliers that really can can do this well are the big names that everybody knows. And sometimes it's hard to to choose some of the smaller businesses in the space because they just don't have the discretionary capital to make these, you know, billion dollar investments. And you talk about, you know, I mean, there's just great marketing around the cloud, right? There's nothing in the cloud. Those are like physical data centers with like, you know, but it really is this image of, oh, it's just everywhere in its light and there's no impact. And the reality is the opposite. So we just need to figure out is, you know, how do we make those right choices? And certainly as we're using tools to be more efficient and open up new opportunities like AI, you know, it is consuming a lot more, you know, data and needs more electricity. And, you know, those are choices we have to look at. I think one of the things that one of our employees brought to light was they're saying, you know, this is great, you know, we're carbon neutral. It's still in the story here on our 12 month journey. But, you know, our, I ran this tool against our website and it scores horribly. You know, what, you know, I thought we compressed all of the images and it's like, now we're looking at green, you know, providers of our site and we're going through an evaluation starting this week because we get a new website launching. And we'll look at optimizing all that to make sure that, you know, it is taking as little energy as possible. We do also look at all the code repositories that we have in the data that we store in the cloud and, you know, may not be active storage because we may not be using it, but we need to look at, you know, what our retention schedules are and say, you know, do we delete stuff after our two year cycle, seven year cycle that, you know, is legally required. But we're evaluating that. And, you know, there's a lot to do. And we really don't want to get rid of a lot, you know, because if we work with the client 10 years ago, they may come back to us and we want that history and, and the insights on, you know, what we accomplished and where we left off. But it is attention, but we just, you know, this is business. This is what we need to do. We need to keep moving forward, but we need to make wise choices along the way and not sacrifice, you know, long-term outcomes for short-term wins. And, you know, that's a, that's a balancing act. I know that there's lots of Andrew's peers listening in thinking, I wish the leadership of my suppliers could be quoting Patagonia and saying the things that you're saying. You get it. And I think you get it, but you get the business opportunity and you get the importance of the relationship. And I think, again, for me, the big message that I've heard today is the importance of curiosity. Coming back with not, this is ridiculous, or I'm not doing it, but coming back with curiosity is just good business development. It's good business relationships. And that's what it's all about. Andrew, thanks for bringing Don on. I think you've both been fantastic, and it's always a pleasure to see you, Andrew, and Don, thanks so much. I think the story is fantastic, and I think you're a great example of what a good supplier looks like. So thanks, guys, for coming on. We really appreciate it. Of course. I do want to say, and maybe we should sneak this in. The story really here, though, is that on those companies starting a journey and not knowing they were going to do it. First factory went from saying, I don't know, like, what is this to being carbon neutral in a year, right? And on the same day, I got an email from Green Project, because they were proud, but from Don saying, hey, where carbon neutral? And I could take that story and bring that to my leadership and say, hey, look, this is what the journey looks like. It's not shooting out in the edict. It's not anything else. It's working with the vendor. It takes time. It's not a straight line, but if we can find these kind of partners, we're in better shape. That's a great story. You've raised the bar there, though. That's an expectation for all of your suppliers to be fitting. So you should be very proud of that, Don. Well done. Thank you. Yeah, just huge thanks for guys for coming on. And I hope to be here from both of you very soon. Thanks so much, Arlie. Really appreciate it. Now in the second part of this episode, I sat down with Simon Jeele and Jamie Ganderton from Proxmer, which is a consultancy that works with some of the biggest companies in the world to help procurement teams not just manage spend that lead real lasting change. We brought them both on to tackle the question that's hanging over a lot of organisations right now. Why is it still so hard to move the needle on scope three? So we get into lots of stuff in the conversation you're about here. We talk about why so many companies, even the ones with bold sustainability targets, are still struggling to activate procurement as a driver of getting their carbon down. Jamie and Simon lay out the hard truths for us. Most procurement teams don't yet have a plan, not a plan for measurement, not a plan for supplier engagement and definitely not a plan for hitting carbon targets. But, and this is what makes the conversation quite useful, I think, is they also get into the how, the capability gaps, the structural blockers, the commercial habits that haven't really caught up with the climate ambition of some companies. They share insight from the scope three maturity benchmark, which I'm sure many of the peer group members will know, which has over 300 companies that have now completed that, which offers a real view of where things stand today. So that's all great. But it's, you know, and spoiler, there's lots of work to do, but it's not all doom and gloom. In fact, the last half of the conversation is packed with reasons to feel optimistic. These guys talk about what actually works from embedding carbon into category strategies to changing supply relationships from transactional to transformational. They talk about culture, they talk about incentives, even internal slack channels that can help shift momentum. There's also some real big picture thinking here about how AI might reshape the role of category managers about the next generation of procurement professionals and how this all connects to the broader challenge of business resilience. So if you're sitting in a procurement function or you're adjacent to one, then, you know, and you're just wondering how to get beyond ambition into actually action, then well, I think you'll enjoy this conversation. Here it is. What up, we start at the start. Maybe you could each just briefly introduce yourselves and tell us what you do at Proxima, but also maybe how you got into this space in the first place. How did you get into procurement and supply chain? Decarbonisation in the first place. So Jamie Ganderson, I'm a senior vice president in our London office. I head up everything we do around scope three and decarbonisation and a lot of our wider ESG services. I got into scope three mainly because it's probably the biggest challenge that procurement as the function is going to have over the course of the next 30 or 40 years and it seems like an exciting and interesting area to get involved in. So my name's Simon. I'm on the board at Proxima. I'm responsible for a bunch of stuff, but I suppose the most prominent of those would be a sort of new product service innovation, marketing, messaging and a bit of advisory work around some of our clients and some of our networks. I guess really, how did I get into this particular space is that one of the key things in my job is to try and identify what are the challenges and trends, how they're in the market, the businesses are going to face into and how can Proxima or procurement help to address them and to be, if you like, to be early into that space and try and simplify and brief our clients so that they're ready when it hits them. So as Janey says, it feels weird, doesn't it, to talk about anything to do with sustainability as an emerging trend because of course it's been around forever, but it did start to feel a few years back, but that vice was closing in on businesses and actually procurement teams in particular need to sit up and take notice. Now a lot of our audience will be part of the scope three peer group. There'll be others that are not, and I'm sure lots of them have come across Proxima, but for those that don't know you and haven't worked with you, give us the pitch, what is Proxima, what do you do? This is probably my bit and then when it gets to anything to do with detail, that's where Janey steps in, but so Proxima's a procurement and Sprite Jane consultancy, so essentially we help businesses to spend their money, hopefully we help them to spend it wisely and well, but generally speaking, we work with large organisations who are facing into complex challenges around procurement that might be challenges about, it might get more value from vendors that they work with, they want to make quick cost improvements, they want to go through some form of transformation or they want to tackle some of these key trends like sustainability, like AI, like supply chain resilience. I suppose the other key things mentioned is that we're part of Bain & Company, the management consulting and strategy firm, and we act as their specialist procurement unit as well as independent money. So who is a typical customer for you guys then? Typical customer would be let's say a FTSE 100, a FTSE 500, they could be national, regional, global, it doesn't matter, we have a global footprint, but really it's anybody who, if we get away from those sort of features, I would say it's anybody who wants to make change happen. One of our tag lines is procurement for the bold and our ideal customer is someone who wants to do something bold, someone who wants to make a big change happen and happen quickly and do it with an expert to do it. And right here right now, so halfway through 2025, what is the number one reason people are engaging with you, would you say, right now? What's the main trigger? Undoubtedly, right now, it's to transform their cost base. There's lots of two dues for procurement teams and businesses, decarbonisation is one of those. Funding AI adoption is one of those, resilience is one of those, but actually transforming the cost base with those factors in mind is the number one priority. Can you share, obviously you've got lots of sort of big brand experience, can you share any good examples there of where procurement really sort of move the needle on scope three and in some of the work you've been doing? Can you help bring this to life for us a bit? So I think you can see some really great examples from people within the scope three peer group who are genuinely pushing the boundaries quite far. We worked with a number of those organisations in the early stages of developing the scope three maturity framework. And you could see examples, there's a lot in the farmer sector, there's a lot in consumer products where these organisations have embedded ESG, sustainability in the heart of their business DNA and their boards have adopted it, it's cascaded across their organisations and now they are funding it and running with it. I think what's interesting for me is that, you know, there are those early adopters, but actually the vast majority of organisations are still trying to find their way. And actually when we look at the results that have come through the benchmark in particular, 80% of those organisations who have taken it don't actually have a plan within their procurement teams to be able to execute. So probably got a handful of household names that you will know just instinctively from how they operate who are pushing the boundaries, but then you still got this mass of organisations who are still trying to catch up and work out what to do. So what's the answer? How do you unlock that? Because, you know, something's got to give here, isn't it? And that 80% is the focus. So how do you unlock it? It's really difficult, isn't it? I just want to maybe go back to when I first got involved in scope 3 and we were starting to talk to, you know, executives and boards in some of our clients and some of our network about this challenge and why we thought it was impending and why we thought it was going to hit them. And a lot of what we were faced with was, you know, a lot of what was coming back to us was, yeah, I get it. I get it. But when's it going to hit me? What's the trigger blame? Because I've got a premium product or I've got a budget product. I don't think my customers are going to pay more or perhaps I don't think I need to change at the moment because they're not going to walk away from me because I'm not, you know, doing these more sustainable things. And so it was kind of a question of timing and that's not unusual because these boards have faced with numerous investment decisions every week, every month, every year and of course they can't do all of them. And so I think, you know, Jamie and I in the early days, we talked about our vice and the vice had, it was like, I don't know how many sides the shape, what shape it was or whatever, but there was various factors like regulation, like profit or revenue, like cost, like reputational risk damage, like engaging talent, you know, and attracting talent. And we sort of said to said that organizations are being squeezed by this vice, but actually a lot of them are just being tickled by it. Because, you know, the regulation wasn't strong enough. The revenue implications were unproven. The cost of carbon wasn't hitting them. And so the imperative to act wasn't there. And so, you know, Jamie can talk a lot more about procurement teams readiness and the challenges facing procurement teams. Fundamentally, I think a lot of what we see and we discuss, you know, in places like, you know, in the media, you know, on podcasts like this in reports, really is about the bleeding edge of companies that are shifting the needle, trying to inspire the others. But the others simply weren't, it wasn't high enough on the agenda to get investment, I think, and that's the key thing. It wasn't about attention or it wasn't about, you know, communicating good intentions or saying, you know, we believe in sustainability, it was about investment to make change happen. You mentioned there the maturity index. Tell us a bit about that for those that are not aware of this. What did you aim to achieve and how did that all work? So we kicked this off probably just over three years ago. And I think at that time, most organisations within the Skate 3P group were trying to work out what to do next. There was a few that were leading the way, but then the vast majority were coming to all these sessions and trying to ask the same question over and over. It's how many people do other people, other organisations have in their team, how much of their budgets and what do I, what do I do? So we've worked on procurement transformation projects for decades and we have a tried and tested framework that we would use to look at their operating model. So our hypothesis was if we could create a Skate 3 tailored maturity framework, could we then allow organisations to assess where they stand? And if we did this publicly and did it for free, we got enough participation. Could we then show each organisation and anonymise version of where they stand relative to everyone else? So then this then formed the basis of the report that we provided to them and that enables them to say, right, this is where I am today and this is where I stand relative to leading organisations and what we try to then do is think about, well look, we don't want this to be something static that just sits in a desk. Can we give them something a bit more? Can we help them build the business case for getting that extra investment? Could we get the extra head count that they need? And then that way, what it does is it provides a more tangible output for them. So that sort of was the genesis of the idea. And I think since then we've had what 300 companies take the benchmark and provided not just individual insights to those organisations and what they should do differently, but then also a sector level. And that I think is where it's become really interesting as genuinely providing sector insights is really cool. Yeah, I think it's the official spokesman for Proxima. It's my duty to just clarify that that's 300 large enterprises and the revenues of those companies is about $3 trillion. So it is a tool for the large enterprise and I think having done a number of maturity models in the past, and particularly things that are free, there's a really interesting thing about free stuff that often people don't engage with free stuff because they think it's going to have no value. But key to us was to do this jointly with the peer group because the peer group would give not only an initial core of companies to make it meaningful, but it would also provide a support network whereby there's going to be stuff in the benchmark where companies want to know how to do themselves, but they don't need to come to a Proxima. They can go to one of the companies in the peer group and say, "How do I do this? What have you done there?" And then there's going to be stuff that comes out of it where they would say, "Well, actually, I do need to go to a Proxima." And selfishly, and of course, we're in this to do good for the companies, but also to do good for Proxima and our team there. And so it helps us to kind of understand where are the challenges and therefore where should we focus our efforts on the unique things that we can help with. And you mentioned there about the kind of the sectors taking things on themselves and creating sort of lovely working groups, and that's been one of the most exciting things I think about the peer group. Why do certain sectors do better with this stuff than others do you think? Is this a collective will or is there kind of something about, I don't know, the farmer sector where they're just better positioned to take this forward? Yeah, so I say some stuff and give you some thinking time, Jamie. This is out me and Jamie work, but I tend to just speak. It's like he's the brains, he's the brains, and I'm the mouth. I'm certainly neither of us other face. So I think you probably know it, they're told, actually. I think in some of the working groups, it's the sheer bloody mindedness and will of a few individuals in those companies. It mustn't underestimate that. Where those people don't exist, it's not successful or straight off with that. And then I think it's, you know, where is it meaningful to the companies? And as I sort of outlined earlier, there's certain companies and certain industry sectors where certain things be a decolonization, be it wider sustainability, be it things on human rights, where those things are more prominent, and it's more advantageous for those companies to address them. And often it tends to be the large brands who are out there to be shot at, all the brands who have made it part of their brand promise to their customers that come together in those working groups, and then curious and motivated individuals from other companies who join into them. I think that's probably what I've probably exhausted my thinking on that, Jamie. You've got anything to add on that? Yeah, so having the executive leadership on this topic is fundamental to the success. So I'm talked about motivation. That can be coming from people's individual perspectives on why they think that this is really important. Also, it's an uncanny relationship between people who have financial rewards and incentives tied to their bonuses and the acceleration of scope 3. So where you see boards that have remuneration tied to ESG targets, suddenly there's a massive ramp up where you see procurement teams that have direct incentives in their performance management and KPIs. You see massive change. I would also say that some organisations just have this cultural acceptance in their customer value proposition, in their employee value proposition, and that therefore gets a ground swell of activity within the organisation. I remember talking to a media company when we were developing out the benchmark, and they'd got it to a point where they had individual groups forming on workplace or on Slack or on Yama, and then they'd have departments within their business who were actually working on individual initiatives. It wasn't like it gone from being just a business initiative to actually personal, and some of these people would even take it home. So I think that having that, let's say the cultural DNA of ESG becomes massive. Can I leave you in on something you said, Jamie, about executive remuneration? Because I think we're about to release the third edition of the Skate 3 benchmark report, and we touch on this because we've looked into remuneration. And I think there's probably a point in there about meaningful remuneration as well, because there is research that suggests that the, let's say the remuneration cycles of the executive are not geared towards making progress on Skate 3. So if you're in a business which is you know, if you're looking to, let's say do some pretty important big strategic investment on projects on Skate 3, which you might take years to pay back, but ultimately we'll pay back. How does that fly against a shorter term, even our investment payback for executives or for investors? And I think those things have to work in cycle. I think if you look into, I can't recall the reports which we looked into, but they are mentioned in the Skate 3 benchmark report, which we're really short on. You know, the average percentage tied to sustainability performance is very, very low in most cases, and an exec would be better compensated simply for moving the dial on ebit, rather than they would on sustainability. So I think there's a point in there around, you know, having the incentives to make change, you know, meaningful as well. With all the data that you have and the benchmark and you've done and obviously you've been doing this for a long time, what's your assessment then as we sort of edge towards 2030, which I'll know is the kind of, a lot of the businesses are looking towards in terms of their net zero targets. Where do you think procurement will be by then in terms of the kind of overall? What's your assessment? Are you hopeful or are we going to still be sort of, you know, edging around here? John, the honest answer. Always. So the honest answer is I don't, unless there are some fundamental changes in the adoption of different processes and different ways of working, there's going to be no change whatsoever. I think you can see at the moment there are some organisations who are starting to embed carbon into their procurement decision making. But until that becomes an widely adopted process, everybody's going to continue making the same decisions, which is always based on cost service and quality. I think at the moment there is only small adoption and until that change is, yeah, we're going to miss targets by a significant amount. I think there's a, to get a bit, to get a bit nerdy on procurement for a second, you know, there's a lot of talk around AI and how AI is going to transform operating models, et cetera. And there is going to be a huge transformation, but we're probably not at the stage where we completely understand what that's going to look like. But one of the things I do think is going to happen is that the category manager of the future is going to have to oversee a new way of transformation that happens at a category level. And that's because firstly, you know, it's decarbonisation, sustainability, risk, et cetera, has to be addressed to a category level. And so they're going to need to understand those things. But it's also going to be because the sort of barriers to technology development have gone down. And so it's much easier for founders to start and sell category specific technology solutions, which may stand independently or both onto, you know, whatever other architecture they have. And so there's a huge challenge, I think, in the category management space in general, to give those people what they need either to upskill, educate, or do that job in the future, which I think is in general a barrier to procurement modernisation anyway. And it might be that there's a different solution to that. It might be that that's driving another way without sourcing or a different sort of consulting packages or, as we're seeing, you know, sort of digital managed services or digital workers. But that's something that's got to be sold because one of the one of the lowest scoring elements in the benchmark was around talent and the ability to attract and keep them. If not the lowest scoring the benchmark consistently. I know I style with a slightly negative point, but I actually think it's probably the most exciting thing for people to start considering is how we change the commercial dynamics of the way we're buying things. And I think this is really super exciting. And I'm surprised that there isn't more adoption of trying to understand how to embed carbonations into their categories. Because, you know, you look at certain commodities, there's sort of, you know, those are traditionally bought on an annual basis. And what you're often looking at is trying to ask your suppliers to make massive investments to reduce the carbon consumption or carbon generation in that category. And so, for me, this is quite exciting because you can start to think about how do you protect your commercial interests by changing the dynamic, make it so that you're supporting those suppliers to make the investments and then amortising it over greater period. And what that then does is it changes it from being a transactional relationship to one which is a true partnership. And I think that when people start to understand how to do that to their category level, there's going to be some really interesting changes and it should be a positive thought on rather than a negative. Let's go all out on positivity here as well because it'd be really easy having looked in the newspapers or whatever media you choose to consume over the last six months or so. And, you know, be free to downbeat on on sustainability and decarbonisation in particular. And there is this sort of thing, isn't there, where have I, you've got countries and you've got companies. And companies cross borders like countries can't. But, you know, countries can regulate like companies can't. And there's a sort of a bit of a clash of things there. But out there in the wild, if you really look into what's happening despite the narrative, you know, more and more companies are setting targets. Yes, some of them are pushing them back, but I believe that's because they're realising the enormity of the challenge and those targets and the strategies are going more realistic. There is more investment going into sustainability, not less. It's just not being publicised, perhaps, perhaps so much. And I can certainly suggest that in our world at least, it's probably the topic that excites the next wave of procurement professionals the most. And it's the thing that in Tottenham's world, a lot of the people being interviewed by us, they're really excited by it and it's something that they want to talk about. So, every day, I think we're getting into a better place. But I sort of agree with Jamie, the start point is we're well behind where we need to be. Why do I review do what you do? What makes you get out of bed in the morning? Why are you doing this work? Probably because I'm motivated by making positive change happen. One of our taglines is purposeful and profitable change. That's what Proxima delivers and I think everybody in Proxima has to subscribe to two things. It's that. That's what we want to deliver and we want to deliver procurement this bold. We are procurement for the bold and that's what gets me out of bed. The opportunity to try and make change happen to help people to be better businesses, better people, better serve their customers, etc. Jamie? My motivation really comes, is comes down to solving complex problems and trying to find solutions and answers to things that haven't necessarily been developed yet. I've worked in procurement for a very long time and saving costs is a pretty standard world trodden path. What actually I think is really super exciting is how can you redefine what the procurement function of the future looks like? How can you start to embed new technologies and new solutions and you know genuinely make a difference to the profession? So I think for me it's really quite an exciting opportunity to devise different services and different ways of working. That's why, yeah, that's what motivated me for the past number of years in getting involved. Yeah, good. So what does the next 12 months look like for you guys? What's going on? So we are currently supporting a couple of clients on actually taking their sustainability targets and objectives and building out a proper procurement strategy for them. And that's pretty exciting because I think that that's going to be the first groundbreaking stepping stone for them and building future business cases and moving significant way forward. We are looking at rolling out another scope three strategy collective which we did with a number of organisations last year. We're going to run second cohort for September and onwards. And then the next phase is really about getting into the detailed category strategy development process and trying to support a couple of clients with how they embed carbon into their category strategies because I think that's the next obvious level down to get to. Great. Well look, you're good friends of Oli and the scope three peer group and there's so much going on with the peer group in this year and going into next. So it's great to find out more about you guys and how you fit into all that. But thank you Jamie and Simon for joining us here on the scope three podcast. Thanks Tom. Thanks Tom. Good pleasure. And that is it for another episode of the scope three podcast. Oli, a joy has ever made four great guests this time. I know we're packing them in aren't we but that's you know we get carried away easily don't we but no four great guys doing great things and just for huge thanks to Jamie and Simon. I think everyone knows in the scope three peer group that you know proximate do what they do and have done for years for the scope three peer group which is put together a remarkable set of support and services and tools all for free for the peer group you know the scope three benchmark as hundreds of companies participating and this benchmark report I think that they've they've released really shows in some ways the progress that has been made but also really shines on the light on the stuff that we really need to make sure we're missing and you know that that importance of procurement the role of procurement I think I think the conversation Andrew and Don had shows the importance of of that relationship with procurement at trust that dialogue you know the need for a relationship that's built on curiosity about solving problems not just no and tip boxes and you know you know it's transactional relationships so I think it was a real procurement kind of episode almost in that respect wasn't it it was about relationships is about the role of procurement which I know we're all passionate about so that was that was great but yeah I mean this week's been busy obviously we just had the scope three peer group meeting a huge amount we've had Mike Berners-Lee he's got a famous brother of course so create at the internet I think so he's doing some fantastic work he was sharing their carbon commons effort which he really thinks is dealing with the elephant in the room that you know whether it comes to data we need to get the ability for that data to be you know it's the old apples for apples and and pairs of pairs and we've got to get that right so that was a real good share that he shared this week so there'll be more more on that more from him I suspect so we had Autumn Fox from Mars talking about their fantastic program on renewables I think they are have got a provocative method that they're going for that requires some of the standard setters to wake up and take notice so more on that you'll be here in I'm sure around climate week and we tackle our procurement scope three procurement training is launching this in this this month that'll be a climate week that was shared so I mean this so much happening but again you'll probably hear more about it at New York or from from on New York episodes absolutely good well listen we'll do it all again in a couple of weeks man I'm looking forward to seeing you out in New York and to do this together right next to each other may be with a man with a manhattan in hand you know or a rocker or two or something you know you'll no longer be bringing me up will I wake up slightly hung over and sort of blabbing to my phone you'll be there sat with me hung over blabbing into my phone and so now I'm looking forward to it and of course yeah there's a small matter of the rider cup golf tool under the end of it which I'm going to on the sundays so you know you're versus USA I think it will be a 5 ski week on many levels but I'm looking forward to seeing you too I'm going to be great and looking forward to everyone that's going if you are going make sure you let us know go to scope if you've got Kong you can let us know that you're going we can send you the plan get in touch with this and and again if you do want to support the podcast especially the special in New York let us know we'd love to we'd love to highlight what you're doing that's great good stuff mate well listen we shall see you soon and tell you guys out there we'll do it again in a couple of weeks