Body Language Expert: The #1 Cue That Makes People Dislike You

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, Prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail-biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music, and fast free delivery, Prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit amazon.com slash prime to learn more. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast. I've brought you somebody who is not only a personal friend, but somebody you need to listen to. If you're listening to this podcast, I know you do it because you want to improve the next conversation. Well, this is somebody who's going to help you do that. This is Vanessa Van Edwards. If she looks familiar to you, it's probably because she's been everywhere. If she's been on anything, it's a million podcasts, and for a good reason. Vanessa is a behavioral investigator, I think the way she would describe it. She is an author of several books. She's the founder of Science of People. It's a wonderful website that we're going to be talking about later, of how to get into that and get more classes from her. All about how do you talk about charisma? How do you improve first impressions? How do you deal with behavior in a conversation that's going to help you enrich your life? Vanessa, thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. It's so good to see you even through the screen. I know, I was saying earlier, it takes a podcast for us to see each other again. Vanessa and her husband are wonderful and have been good friends throughout this whole experience while I'm going, hey, Vanessa, you've been on this podcast. How was it? How's it going? What are you doing? And Vanessa is, she's for sure the veteran. She's the pro in this space. As someone once told me yesterday, oh, you know, you've just had an overnight success. And I'm like, if overnight success is doing a video a week for 17 years, then yes, I've had overnight success. For sure. Vanessa, in this podcast, in this episode, I really want to hone in on some of what I already know is your expertise and some of the people listening may not know about it. When you meet somebody for the first time as a stranger walking up, you shake their hand, you say hello, what are some of the first things we look for? Where do our eyes go when we are trying to connect with somebody that we don't know? Yes. You know, this was a startling news for me as a recovering awkward person. I'm a recovering awkward person and just have had always had trouble connecting with people, which is what got me into this work in the beginning. And as an ambivert, somewhere in between introvert and extrovert, I always thought that my first impression happened the moment I started talking. So in a meeting or in a restaurant or at a party, my first impression didn't activate until I said, hello, I'm Vanessa. And unfortunately I read a study that changed the way I think about first impressions, which said that our first impression happens the moment someone first sees you. And this shocked me and was a little horrifying because it meant that we have to think about the cues that we're sending the moment we walk into a room, the moment we pop on camera, the moment someone else comes into a restaurant or a party. And when they look at eye tracking studies, they find that we focus on, by the way, most people think we look at the face first and eye contact is very important. But actually one of the first places we look is our hands. And this is a kind of a survival mechanism. Back in the day, our caveman days, if we were approached by a stranger caveman, we look to see if they were going to greet us, were they gonna wave at us? Were they going to throw something at us? Were they carrying a rock or a spear? And so we look at hands first to see intention. And we still do this, even though we no longer are carrying rocks or spears, to see if someone's going to greet us. Maybe some rocks. I like a spear. Who doesn't like a cool rock? Why not make it the next fashion accessory? I'm for it. What if I just like show up on the podcast, like just holding like a caveman spear? Yeah, you should have. Interesting, so it's the hands. It's the hands is what we look for. It's hands. And by the way, this is like a very quick mental checklist. So when humans first meet each other, they're trying to answer two basic questions. Can I trust you? And can I rely on you? The faster you can answer those questions, the better your first impression. So trust, trust comes first. When you say, morning, and you hold your hand up, palm out, we love seeing a palm. I know that sounds crazy, but the palm is one of the best parts of our body because it shows that we're not hiding anything. So you hop on video, you hop into a restaurant, you wave someone over, morning, hi, nice to see you. You are literally telling the other person, you can see my intention, I am open to you. The next thing we look at is eye contact. We're looking for the face to see if we're gonna have any kind of chemical connection. And this is a fancy word for connection is oxytocin. Oxytocin is the chemical connection, which you know, and we produce it a couple of ways. And humans are addicted to oxytocin. We love when someone can gift us a big burst of oxytocin because it makes us feel calm. It makes us feel connected. It makes us feel like we belong. So the very first way we produce it with another human is eye contact. The moment we mutually gaze, we both begin to produce a little bit of this chemical. And amazingly, research found in COVID that we can even produce it through a webcam. It's less, but we can still produce it. So even on video, hopping on, the mistake I see on video is people, the video pops on, they make an accidental first impression. They're shuffling their papers. They're checking their phone. They don't even make eye contact. Maybe they glance up at the camera, oh, morning. Actually, those first few seconds of a visible hands making eye contact, it produces a little bit of that chemical. Then in person, the next way we produce the chemical is some kind of physical touch. Handshake, high five, fist bump, cheek kiss, hug, side hug, any kind of physical touch that's welcome. And that's a whole different issue. It's welcome produces oxytocin. That is going to chemically set you up for success to have a trust foundation. So when we see somebody and we're going, I don't know, do we like this person? Do we not? Without us even knowing about it, we're looking at them and making these judgments before we even hear their voice. Is that right? Yes. And so one of the first things we look at are the hands. So we look at their hands. We look at the, you said the palm, definitely the palm. Then what? The eyes, the face. The eyes and the face. And then now we get into like the more exciting territory. So the next thing that happens is we're looking for reliability cues, right? So the first thing is, can I trust you? Are you going to be open to me? Are you going to acknowledge me? Then we're like, so, kind of sussing this person out. Am I going to like what you have to say? Are you going to tell me something credible? Can I rely on your opinion or your words? And there's a lot of different ways to show reliability. But one of the first ways is your voice. And this makes sense, by the way, if we think about just how humans interact, it makes sense that we would judge very small cues from across the forest or across the room. Then we're listening for vocal cues. And I think vocal cues are the most underestimated part of our charisma. Your very first word is critical to your entire impression. In fact, researchers find that we decide how confident someone is within 200 milliseconds of hearing you speak. And the reason for this is because our voice holds all kinds of cues that are very difficult to control, but they actually can be calmed, on our tension, on our anxiety. So for example, right now I'm working super hard, Jefferson, with you, to keep my voice at its lowest natural pitch. When I get nervous or excited, I tend to go a little higher in my vocal range and I get a little bit of vocal fry. So if I were to do this entire interview like this, it would really drive you crazy. Now, I just manipulated my voice to make it sound anxious. So what's happening is if someone picks up the phone or says hello on Zoom or in a room, if we hear someone with a little bit of anxiety in their voice, we don't wanna catch it. And so if we hear tightness, vocal fry, loss of volume, we hear, oh, they feel anxious about what they're about to say, or they're in a state of discomfort, I don't wanna catch that discomfort. I can't rely on them. So when you state your first impression, I actually think the most important part of a presentation, a pitch, an interview, a date, is how you say hello. Which is good news, right? It's only one word, you don't have to worry about. And can I tell you the biggest mistake people make with their hello? Yeah, let me tee it up this way for us. Yes. Vanessa, what is the biggest mistake people make when they say hello? The biggest mistake people make is they are nervous on their first word. And so they take in a deep breath, and they hold it all the way up here. And that immediately, when you take in a deep breath and you hold it, it creates fake tension. It creates tension, your vocal cords, your jaw, your mouth, your chest. And that's gonna make you sound accentually anxious. So I want you to hear the mistake that people normally do at the top of their breath. Morning. Hello. Where they're all the way at the top of their pitch with a lot of tightness. Instead, what I want you to do is take a deep breath and speak on the out breath. So we can force our vocal cords to relax, our chest, our jaw to relax when we speak on the out breath. So try this with me. So Jefferson, take in a deep breath, and I want you to say hello at the top of your breath. Ready? Hello. Hello. Ooh, yeah. So that, that is good. That doesn't even feel good. It feels terrible. It feels terrible. And also, I would not rely on you as much, right? If you opened up a call with me. I wouldn't rely on me either. Yeah, no. Like, who was that? Yeah, who's that guy? That doesn't even feel good. That's, so when you, I would love for you to do this wherever you are right now. So you can hear what you sound like when you're your most anxious. I know what I sound like. And sometimes my voice cues me before my body. I'll hear my voice go into that range. I know what that sounds like. And I go, oh, mentally. Okay, time two. And this is when I take in a couple deep breaths and I speak on the out breath. So here's the difference. Then we'll try it together. So this is on the intake. Hello. This is on the out take. Hello. So two totally different sounding hellos, even though I'm the same person, right? I sounded like a different person, right, Jefferson? Does that sound different to you? Yeah, hello. What's your name? Yeah. Who is that? Vanessa? I'm looking for, yeah. Okay, so Jefferson, try it on the out breath. So take in a deep breath and speak on the out breath. Okay, here we go. Hello. No, you still had breath. I saw you go, hello. I couldn't do it. Okay, I'll show you again, I'll show you again. Here we go. I'll show you again, okay. So on the out breath. So first take a couple deep breaths. Take a couple deep breaths. I embarrassed Jefferson. I can see the redness. I can see the redness. Okay, so this is the best part about doing a podcast with a friend is you can just, I can make Jefferson do anything I want right now. Like what if this wasn't even a real exercise? She's the guest, so yeah, just wait till I turn this back around. Is that what you're saying? I don't know. What if I was like, now take a banana and swing it around your head? Yeah. And that's gonna be, oh, okay. So this is a real exercise. Okay, so on the out breath we go, hello. Hello. Oh, yes. Didn't that sound good? Did you like that? Did that sound confident? That sounded so good. Oh goodness, you're like, did that sound confident? So I want you to play with this, right? Like you're gonna find your lowest natural range. Let's take a step back for a second. The reason why this is important is because I don't want you to accidentally give away your vocal charisma. We accidentally do this when we are accidentally holding our breath or sometimes it can happen with tension in our body. So I often see, and women tend to do this more than men, but both, and also children do this a lot, where we hunch our shoulders up, we tilt our chin down and we go, morning. And we take up as little space as possible. When we take up as little space as possible, it also accidentally creates tension. So the entire goal here is you are already confident. You're going into your calls or your dates. You want to be your best self. Let's show it. So going into your lowest natural range. And the second thing is that we don't want to ask our name. So this often happens, especially in important business presentations or pitches, where we accidentally use the question inflection on a statement. A question inflection is when we go up to the person at the end of our sentence. So instead of asking, we're stating. So instead of stating, we're asking. So someone says, good morning, I'm Vanessa. Nice to be here. And not only is this very annoying, but what it actually is doing is liars typically use the question inflection. And that is because they know what they're saying is not true. And so accidentally they are asking you, do you believe this? And our brain knows this. They found that when we hear an accidental question inflection used on a statement, our brain goes from listening to scrutinizing. And so what happens is in this first few seconds of a first impression, we say hello, and then we ask our name. That is the fastest way to tell someone, you can't rely on me. I'm questioning me, you should question me too. This podcast is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth because I use their stuff. I say it all the time, but it's true. Their sheets are on my bed right now. I live in Texas, it is sweltering hot. It is so humid, my gosh. But the one thing that I love, and I look forward to anytime I'm traveling, I'm like, I know I'm gonna be sleeping in my own bed. Well, part of that is because of the sheets that are on it. You can go to CozyEarth.com slash Jefferson. Used to go Jefferson 40% off. They, to me, are the premier maker of all things bedsheets related and any cozy, comfy wear that you like. And on top of that, they have a 100-night guarantee trial for you to try on the sheets. 100 nights to try it. If you don't like it, you take them right back, but you're not gonna wanna do that. Go to CozyEarth.com slash Jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 40% off. So we talked about hands. We talked about eyes and face. We talked about how just within milliseconds, we're already judging, sussing somebody up to see if, can we trust them? Can we not trust them? You use a lot of the word reliability. Can I rely on you? We talked about some of the ways that pulls down reliability, lessens it, is when you keep your voice up in that high range when you're not breathing. You know, taking that full breath and what you said, speaking on the out breath, and then also in our shoulders, making us feel very small. And when you have that upward inflection, it sounds like you do not have the confidence, like you don't wanna, I'm an inconvenience to everybody here. Like somebody who's introducing themselves and they hunch their shoulders and like, hi, like this. Hi, hello, like, please don't look at me. I don't wanna hear anything, I don't exist. Those are all ways that not only, I think, affect what we judge somebody on first impression. I'm curious to keep going on this line, Vanessa. What can somebody do listening right now? What can they do to improve their charisma on somebody? If we can define what charisma is, that would be cool, because we feel, really we feel it more than we know it. Like, I just, there's something about this person. I just like them. You might say they have charisma. People tend to like this particular person. What is charisma to you? And what are some ways that we can improve on it? I love very charismatic people. In fact, one of the earliest studies I did in my career was studying highly charismatic people, where I did a very simple experiment. I asked people, what is charisma? So they came into my lab, I said, what is charisma? And it was amazing how hard it was for people to answer that question. On average, it took people about 15 seconds to answer that question, 15.7 seconds. And they often could not come up with a very steady definition of it, and it varied widely. The second question we asked was, who is the most charismatic person you know? This question was super easy for people to answer. It took people less than three seconds to answer that question. They could immediately think of a parent, or a teacher, or a friend, or a boss. And I thought, exactly as you said, charisma is this very hard thing to define, yet we know it the moment we see it. And that made me think for a long time that charisma, you had to be born with it. It was an innate trait. You either had it or you didn't. And I said, well, I don't have it. So, there's that. And then I discovered a study, this is by Dr. Susan Fisk at Princeton University. It's a groundbreaking study on how we come across to others. And what she found was that we often think of charisma as very extroverted, very bubbly, very positive, maybe even smarter, or more athletic, or funny. Those are all words that came up in that, what is charisma? But actually, thank goodness, it has nothing to do with our attractiveness or our humor. It actually has to do with our warmth and competence. Specifically, very highly charismatic people, what makes someone very highly charismatic is they are off the charts in signaling warmth and off the charts in signaling competence. And I use the word signaling very specifically because you could be the warmest, most competent person out there, but if you are not showcasing it, people don't believe it. And so, highly warm and competent people, and it comes at the same time. So, highly warm folks are cuing others for trust, likability, and openness, friendliness. We want to be around them, we wanna open up to them, we wanna talk to them. On the other side, they're also signaling high competence, credibility, efficiency, productivity. In other words, highly charismatic people very quickly answer the questions, you can trust me and you can rely on me. The problem is, the reason why these charismatic people are so rare is that most of us showcase an imbalance. We showcase too much warmth or too much competence. And let's start with competence, because I think that most people listening to this podcast are highly smart, and this is the problem, this is the plague of highly smart people. Highly smart people have great ideas, this is most of my students. They are off the charts, talented, very brilliant. And they hope, they think that their book smarts, their preparation, their work ethic, their great ideas will stand by themselves. And so, they showcase lots and lots of competence. They go into an interview signaling credibility and productivity and efficiency. They walk on stage or do a presentation or a pitch with lots of great numbers and beautiful slides and a really great business plan. But what the research says, and this is a quote from the research, competence without warmth is likely to leave us feeling suspicious. No matter how good your idea is, if you can't showcase it with warmth, people will not believe it. And so, they show up with all these competence signals, but people see they're intimidating, cold, hard to talk to. They get this gut feeling of like, I just don't get a good feeling. Competent folks need to learn how to cue warmth along with their ideas for people to believe them. On the other side, we have folks who have very, very high signals of warmth, but they don't showcase enough of their competence. And this is the plague of people pleasers. And I am also a recovering people pleaser. We're highly warm folks. We really want people to like us. We are very focused on being liked. Competent folks wanna be right. So they wanna make sure they're in the know. In fact, you know you're in a relationship with a highly competent person, my husband is off the charts competence, if they constantly Google fact check you. That's how you know you're in a relation with a highly competent person because they are more focused on being right and less focused on being liked. Highly warm folks wanna be liked, and they often will put likability over credibility. So they'll sacrifice their respect or credibility just so people will like them. And here's what happens when you do that. When you signal lots and lots of warmth, people love to open up to you. In fact, you know that you're high open if people love to tell you their life story. It means you are signaling, you are broadcasting, open up to me, tell me everything. Highly warm folks, one of my friends is highly warm. And whenever she sits on an airplane, the person next to her tells them their life story for the entire flight because she is signaling. I know people like that. Yeah, you get in a conversation with them and then 40 minutes go by, and you're like, what just happened? They just made me say everything. Yes, and that is because verbally, vocally, non-verbally, and by the way, there's four ways that we signal these for channels. They are signaling to you, tell me everything, Jefferson, and you just feel like you can do it. Here's the problem. Highly warm folks make wonderful friends and wonderful partners, but we don't always take them seriously. So warm leaders, they struggle with the same things. People interrupt them in meetings. They aren't paid what they're worth. They have trouble closing. They have trouble negotiating. And when it comes to their ideas, people like the person, but don't always take their ideas seriously. So the reason why we love highly charismatic people is they're able to say both, you can trust me and you can rely on me. And I think this is the foundation of every single one of our relationships. All of our people problems, all of our communication patterns, all of our miscommunications happen because of an imbalance between warmth and competence. I like that. I find that no doubt when you meet somebody, you can, like we talked about earlier, within a few seconds, you're like, there's something about this person I don't like. I don't know if I can put my finger on it, but I like how they, it's like you meet them and without knowing it, your eyes might look at what they're wearing or how they smile, or you look at the corners of their eyes. Your brain is kind of like doing these subliminal like check marks of like, I like this person, I like this person, I like this. Yes, it's like these micro calculations. And actually I think that there's, the biggest reason we don't like people is actually because they're muting. Muting or under signaling is the thing that drives us the most crazy as a human. So yes, we might be picking up on negative signals and there are about 30, 27 different negative cues we don't like, which we can talk about. But the biggest negative cue is under signaling. Why? If someone is completely stoic or completely mute, they're not showing us enough, we can't get a grip and our brain goes, we don't like this. I can't see their emotion. I can't see if I can trust them. I can't see if they're credible. And that makes us very nervous. There's a experiment called the still face experiment, which is basically this idea that bosses tend to think if they're present and they make eye contact, that's enough. This is also the problem with Zoom is we're completely stoic on mute. There's very little we can give someone on this little tiny box with our face in it. And in the still face experiment, they have babies and mothers come into a lab and the mom is interacting with the baby. And then they instruct the mother to completely go still, to go mute, to sit right in front of the baby, making eye contact, but not show any emotions. And almost immediately the babies begin to cry, they begin to turn away, they lose their posture, they get very fussy and upset, even though their mother is right there making eye contact, they don't like the lack of interaction. And so one thing I'm trying to fight back with is let's not go mute. Let's make sure that we are not under signaling our warmth and competence in the name of being professional. I think people often think it's professional to not show too much emotion, but actually we really need it to be able to feel comfortable with people we're working with or interacting with. Yeah, and I agree absolutely on if you want to be better at work, if you want to communicate better at work, even with your boss or whoever, emotion can be a good thing if it's, as long as it's not misplaced. You can show emotion in people who cuss a lot in their words, it shows you to be a much more emotional person. You at the opposite, if you're somebody who rarely reacts to a good job, I would say that's another form of muting, so to speak. What are ways that you find that in the workplace specifically people can do to improve their nonverbal skills in the office? Okay, so this is my bread and butter. I love charisma at work because I think it's the hardest, right? It's easier to be charismatic with your friends, people you're comfortable with, but trying to be able to get buy-in, create collaboration, disagree politely, this is your specialty, like this is what I love. Okay, so the very first thing that I like to teach professionals is you need to know how to read the room. And that comes from being able to very clearly read faces. In professional settings, we often will say we're fine, but not actually be fine, or we'll give a half preference instead of saying the whole preference. And so there's two, actually three emotions I wanna teach right now that are, I think, incredibly, they're tools, they're tools for reading the room. The very first one is you should know how to spot underlying fear or anxiety. When we spot fear in the workplace, we're able to very quickly prevent miscommunications from happening down the line. So fear, I'm gonna teach you what it looks like, and if you're listening, you can also just imagine this, is when we see the upper whites of someone's eyes. So when someone widens their eyelids, you can try this with me. So widen your eyes as wide as they'll go. We don't naturally do that. We'll raise our eyebrows. We don't naturally raise our eyebrows up so the whites of our eyes are showing. When we do that, that's an involuntary response to fear, anxiety, or discomfort. And it happens professionally in so many insidious ways if we don't stop it. It can happen around confusion. That's actually the time I see it the most, is even on a Zoom call, I'll spot, if someone said something that a new software stack or a new protocol or something about the client or a pricing and you see someone's fear go up, it means you might have just said something that they don't understand. So the very first thing you do if you see fear is note it. Hmm, I just spotted something I said or that was said or just happened, made them feel a little uncomfortable. Note it. Second, how can I clarify? Oftentimes it will be resolved with that. So I'll usually say, does that make sense? Any questions for me? Let me circle back here and explain that one more time or let me showcase this a different way. Any questions or ideas for me? That is a moment where I stop and I pause and I clarify either with a re-explanation or giving someone the floor. And the last one is see if you can resolve it. So maybe they are actually afraid of something. This is when I will go into credibility mode. Listen, I know this is a really big change and a big shift. Here are all the reasons why I think it's gonna work and here are all the reasons why I think it's important and I am here for you. We are in this together. That pause of taking note, clarifying and then resolving, you are going to prevent any kind of miscommunications happen in the line because you spotted it in the moment. So that's fear. And looking for the whites of someone's eyes. And I look for this on Zoom calls, in pitches and presentations. The second one is disgust. Disgust is so overlooked and it is such an important emotion because disgust is a fun one to make. It's the face we make when we smell something bad. So we crinkle our nose up and we flash the upper whites of our teeth. That's it, you got it, Jefferson. So when these upward crinkled. Stank face. Yeah, that's what I call it. Stank face. Yeah, like, ugh. And when you say, ew, it's a fake. Here's some good music you like. Yeah, ugh, don't like it. So, and by the way, again, that's very unnatural. Like I would never walk around holding my nose like that. By the way, the reason why we have these faces is there's evolutionary reasons we have them. There's a reason why these are across cultures and genders and races. Fear, in fear, we widen our eyes to take in as much of our environment to see if there is an escape route or if we have more threats coming towards us. In fear, our body wants to widen our field of vision. That's why we widen our eyes. In disgust, typically there's something that we don't like and so we inhibit our olfactory senses so we don't smell as much. That's literally why we crinkle our nose up. We're trying to take in less of that nasty air. Now, most people think, well, Vanessa, I don't care if someone doesn't like me. food or doesn't like the smell. You see disgust when people don't like anything. An idea, a person, a direction, a change. And so you want to look for disgust, especially when asking preference-based questions. The most common way I see this is if you say, so what do you think of the new girl? Oh yeah, you know, she's, she's great. And they're actually holding their nose up. Yeah. And that little crinkle face. It means there is something there that they are disgusted with or don't like. The most important thing we see disgust is permission. You want to immediately give someone permission to tell you the truth. You know, did you have any interesting experiences with her? It's totally okay if, you know, you didn't vibe right away. Tell me everything. I'm here for you. I'd rather get us, get us all out and open, get this all out and open into the, into our, into our discussion. The moment you can give someone permission to tell you their truth, you become such an important partner. We love people who see and sense our true emotions, so we have permission to share them. And so you become, it's a gift to recognize emotions because you're basically telling someone, I want you to tell me who you are and what your needs are. So no guessing. No guesswork in a relationship. And it also sets a precedence so that later they don't even show the disgust and lie. They just tell you. So we do a lot of lie detection research at Science for People, and disgust is a big piece of that, is allowing people to share the truth. The third most important emotion to read is contempt. So contempt is the sneakiest of all the emotions. It's actually a little bit hotly contended in the research, but I think it's very helpful for us to talk about, which is a one-sided mouth raise. So one-sided mouth raise, you can just look one side up, either side. Most people, we actually asked 40,000 people what they thought this expression was, and over 80% thought it was boredom. But actually it is the micro expression of contempt, or disdain, or hatred, or pessimism. Specifically contempt comes with a scornful feeling of better than. So if you do this for too long, if you just hold your mouth in that one-sided mouth raise, you'll begin to feel like, huh, kind of smug, kind of better than, it's a terrible feeling. Don't do it for too long. Do you feel it? Did you feel it? Yeah, I felt so smug. I know. Yeah, if you always have it, it's, yeah, it's like you, you know something the other person doesn't, or you're, I'm a little bit better than you, this kind of feeling. Yeah, it definitely resonates with contempt, certainly. And so, one, is make sure you're not accidentally showing this in your profile picture. I think some people pick this because it's like, guys do that. I know. I feel like guys have that, they're like, hey. I think it was because, truly, Vanessa, it's because if you look at, like, the cool cartoons that we thought of, like, Johnny Bravo and, like, Hey Arnold, like, they had, like, the little side smiles. Like, how did you draw a cartoon of a guy and you wanted this guy to be kind of cool? You give him a little side smile. But yeah, I think, I think in real life it doesn't pay off that way. Yeah. Cartoon is new. I wasn't allowed to watch Simpsons. It was, it was too much for my Southern family. I know. My family, too. My family, too. Simpsons were not allowed until we were 16. I've never seen an episode, to tell you the truth. I've never seen an episode. The funny thing is my dad actually worked on the show. We weren't allowed to watch it, so. No way. Yeah, isn't that weird? Yeah. We thought it was so hypocritical, but. It kind of is, but yeah. All right, so side smile can certainly give off that feeling of contempt. Yes. And that's one of the three signs when you're trying to read a room. Yeah, so one, don't accidentally show it. If you're, if you're going to take a profile picture, I don't mind serious or full smiling. Nothing in between. No half smile, no fake smile. Either still and stoic and, and just real intense, which I don't mind in a profile picture, or smiling all the way. So one, make sure you're not accidentally showing it. And second, if you see it, especially if someone responds with that kind of mm-hmm, one-sided smirk, there is something about that that made them feel scornful. And contempt is a tricky one because you don't always know where it comes from. It could be something you said, but it could be something that they feel that has nothing to do with you. Jealous. So what I, right. Yeah. And so what I always do is I just take note of it. I usually will maybe pause for a second. This makes sense. Are we all good? And I just want to make sure that I go into a rapport building, that they know that whatever they're feeling contemptuous about, that I'm an ally against it as well. So like, for example, if someone feels contemptuous of a client or a project or a number, that's fine. I can't always fix that contempt, but I can make sure that I'm an ally with them that like, yeah, that sucks. Right? Yeah. We can also, but we can trauma bond over contempt as well. And so it's always one that I look out for. Before we keep going, I want to take a second to tell you about what's been a daily staple in my life. And that is Momentous. 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We do this thing and I don't know if it's cultural. I don't know if it's because you're a guy, ethnicity, whatever. We do this right here. Like a, we do this smile that doesn't show teeth and it's kind of like a, it's like a hello, but you don't want to actually open your mouth to say hello. And so you just, you pass them by and it just might be a small little, like one of those where you're trying to be polite but like I actually don't want to talk to you. I'm very curious what your, what your take is on that. So I believe there are certain human cues that we use to show, I acknowledge you, I'm not a threat, but let's not talk. Yes. Okay, so one of them is the mouth pull. You're saying, I don't know you, I'm not gonna give you a full smile. But I'm like, we're good. Right, so this is like a, we're good smile. We also, I've noticed men typically will do a nod. So either a nod down with someone they don't know or nod up with someone they do know as a way to be like, I see you, I acknowledge you, we're all good here. So men typically do that nod more. And then the other one that we will do verbally, and everyone does this, is you'll be like, hey, how are you? Good. Like soon as we ask, how are you? But we don't mean it. Like we don't, don't tell me, you know, don't tell me how you are. I get, I see you, I'm saying hello really quickly and let's move on to something else. So I've noticed that sometimes we use how are you as hello. We do, and I think it was you, I think you have this awesome old thing on, I had never thought about before, when guys see each other and they do the head nod. If it's somebody you don't know, you'll do like the nod down, kind of like a symbol of respect, kind of like a tipping of the hat. Yes. But if it's somebody you do know, you don't mind the up, but it has some kind of psychology that we're like, how you're protecting your neck, in other words. Yes, so our jugular is very special to us, right? We can't have any attack there. So if we see someone we don't know, but we don't want to have any animosity, we tilt down to show I see you, I respect you, but don't touch my jugular. And then if it's someone we do know, we're like, hey, I trust you enough, look at my jugular. It's right here for you. It's so true. We really do. You walk by, let's say, you know, a few weeks ago I was at a I was at a rodeo here in Texas, small little town, and you walk by and what do guys do if you don't know them? You kind of just, you give a little nod, like yeah, I see you, respect you, there you go. But if it's a friend and I see him, first thing we do is we do one of these. Like we show it, we show all the jugulars. And we open our body, we're like, look, right? Like that's, I think that's where the head came from. Like I don't know if this is research-based or not, but when you see someone you know, you open up everything. You open up your jugular, you say hi, you open up your body. What's the first thing you do? You want to go give them a big hug. Yeah. Right. And then you end up hugging. I actually literally think hugging just came from, we are so open to each other, we might as well touch chest to chest. We might as well do that. Just come to this one person. Which is why we just instinctively, like the side hug gives us the ick. You know, like the side hug, like just that little, it's only because, and I know it's more appropriate in certain settings, especially, but it gives a little bit of the ick because it feels like, oh, we don't really fully trust each other. Like we're not going belly to belly. Since we're talking about the neck, which I find very interesting of how much our communication is derived from what we protect here in between our body and our head is the, tell us for a second about when somebody does this, when they go, oh, they put their hand on their neck. Maybe they're thinking about something. Maybe they're concerned about an issue. Oh, I just heard this, this news, right? And they put their hands on their neck. Tell us about what that signals. Okay. So actually there's a very important part at the base of our neck. It's called the, the suprasternal notch. It's the notch between our two collarbones and that notch. We can feel our pulse there. Also, it's like a very sensitive area. And so you'll notice that when people are surprised or even trying to self comfort, they'll touch that part of their body. They'll cover their suprasternal notch. One, this is a protective gesture. But two, when I have, I have some students who deal with like stage fright or social anxiety, I will actually tell them to stroke and rub that part of their body because it produces oxytocin for yourself. So you can actually calm yourself down by, by rubbing this or even rubbing the sides of your arms. It reminds us of when we were babies and our, our parents rubbed us to try to calm us down. So it's a very sensitive part of our body for self soothing as well as protective gesture. Here's the problem. So Cornell did a massive research experiment looking at untrustworthiness or mistrust behaviors. They asked people, when do you most mistrust others? They cataloged all these different cues. And there are four cues that signal others to not trust you. Again, these aren't actual signals of mistrust. They're just socially, we have been conditioned to think, Oh, is someone not telling us the truth? The first one is touching the face. So we have to be very careful. The neck is not one, but it can very easily go up into a face touch where we're rubbing our face. We're touching the sides of our eyes. We're biting our fingernails. We associate self touch of the face with anxiety, nervousness and deception. So I always tell my students do not touch your face. I see the same exact thing in depositions for clients I'm preparing. If they start to about to answer a question and they start touching their face, I'm like, Oh, that's not, don't, don't, don't, don't do it. So like, do not touch your face. That's the first thing. The second thing that they found was a lean away, which is a called a distancing behavior. And this is makes a lot of sense from a, from a psychological perspective, which is if we don't like something, we want to get away from it. And so we will take a step back. We lean back. We even will tilt our head over to the side. I've noticed, um, we do a lot of like mock depositions and code them for deception behaviors that when I bring up a topic, someone doesn't like, they will literally like, Oh, let me think. And they pull their head back in a way. It's a site. It's a, it's without even realizing it's a subconscious way of trying to get away from that question. They don't like that information. You tell someone bad news. They're like, no. And they lean all the way back or they step away. So if you lean back, tilt back, scoop back, lean away, it is signaling that you don't like something, or perhaps that was a topic that you are being deceptive about. This is why it's really important to understand space. You're, how you're interacting in space. That the fancy word for that is proxemics. I always say, claim your space. So I stand for my podcast because it helps me move less. I also make sure that when I'm on stage, I'm lateral moving or I'm forward moving. The only time I ever moved back on stage is when I'm showing a video because then I want people to not pay attention to me. I want them to pay attention to the video. So thinking very carefully about your world blocking is actually important. The third thing that Cornell found was any kind of crossed arms. Now crossed arms is such a hard one because it is comfortable and I know it feels so comfortable to cross our arms. It makes us feel warm and cozy. It makes us feel protected. But study after study, after study, study after study finds that when we see someone in any situation with closed arms, it makes them look more closed minded and sometimes deceptive. One research study really changed my mind on this. I always knew that it gave a bad impression, but actually it changes your own thinking. They gave people creative tasks in open body language or closed body language. And they found that when people had their arms crossed, they were less creative. They were less open-minded. In other words, there's sort of a cycle between our body and our mind that if we are blocking ourselves, our mind even kind of shuts down a little bit as well. And so if you can get out of the habit of crossing your arms when you're in interpersonal situations, I don't care what you do when you're by yourself, but especially those first impression, those pitches, their presentations, do not cross your arms. There's one exception to this. If you want to look closed off. So there are times in negotiations, this is only in certain kinds of professions where you want your body to negotiate for you. Something that I teach my sales professionals and my negotiators is you don't always have to verbally negotiate with someone. You can non-verbally negotiate with them. So they negotiate with themselves. In other words, if someone gives you a number or a framing or a piece of information that you don't like, you can non-verbally signal. I don't like that with a crossed arms and a lean back. And then just wait, just wait. Cause you just signaled them without saying a word. I don't like that. Give it three or four seconds of a pause and see if they negotiate with themselves. So you can also signal these things to speak for you. That's the one exception I have for crossed arms. What do you, what's your take on crossed legs? I don't mind them. And the research also doesn't really mind them. And the reason for this is because if we cross our legs, it makes us look comfortable or at ease. You know, there's a classic, um, uh, video that I show in my presentations of Richard Nixon and John F. Kennedy in the first televised presidential debate. And then that debate Kennedy has his arms, his, his legs crossed and his arms loose. And it makes him look like a president. It makes him look like he's here to stay. And so crossed legs just shows that you're at ease. It's not necessarily a confident gesture. It just shows that you're here to stay and it's not considered blocking because your vital organs are actually up here. This is the most important vital organ. We can't, we can't survive if our heart is attacked. And so, um, if as long as our torso is open, that's more important than legs. That's a really good distinction, by the way. Now, before we keep going, I want to take a second to tell you about one of my favorite sponsors of this podcast and they're called Our Place. I would never have guessed it, but Our Place is a cookware company and yes, a cookware company. You heard that right? Because I cook, I really do. And let me tell you, for the last probably five months now, Our Place has this pan. It's called the Always Pan. I have used it for probably every meal that I've cooked for the last three to five months because it is awesome. It's nonstick. I'm breakfast dad. And that means when I make an egg, I, it really bothers me when the egg sticks to the pan. 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It goes on smooth and stays exactly where you put it thanks to a lightweight oil-free breathable formula. Even better, it's dermatologist tested, non-acne genic and vegan. No wonder it's a number one bestseller. Shop Smashbox OG photo finish primer at Ulta. That kind of resonates with me on, in early parts of trials that I've had. And then when I was teaching other younger associates on trials, I would make them get to the courtroom early. Typically the day before I'd ask the court coordinator, let us in and just make them sit in the chairs, just to get a feel for, I want you to feel like this is not your first time here, like your whole body position. And so that means if you're going to lean back, cross your legs, relax your arms a little bit, like you're listening, rather than the attorneys that are there like this hands on the paper. And they're reading the next question. Like the jury needs to see that you are a hundred percent comfortable. Same thing with when you're given all your presentations on the stage, the person who feels the most comfortable makes the other person the most comfortable. Yes. And by the way, the opposite of a lean back as a lean in, and leaning in should be used purposefully. So I love neutral. Like I, as you said, like you're kind of lawyers, they're like sitting up reading their papers. Great. This makes you look attentive. A lean in is a cue that shows you want to get closer and also the other person might want to lean in as well. And so for example, even on this podcast, if I'm saying something that I really believe in, I might use the lean as a way to bold or emphasize what I'm saying. If someone else says something that I really agree with, I might lean in to show I am emphasizing or bolding what you are saying. Um, and on stage, especially, I have a lot of stage presenters who take my classes and I tell them, you want to lean in as a way to outline your content for the audience. It lowers cognitive load. If you can show your audience what your most important points are with your body, we do this with our lean so we can lean into the stage. Like for example, if I'm talking on stage and I'm like, this is the most important point, you're immediately cued into up, pay attention, put our pens down and watch. Same thing with an eyebrow raise. They found research looked at eyebrow raises and across cultures, we recognize an eyebrow raise, not a lid raise, but an eyebrow raise as a universal sign of curiosity. And our eyebrows are trying to get up out of the way so we can see more. When I raise my eyebrows, it cues you to look at my face as if I'm about to say something really interesting, even if I'm not. And so it, you can use, you can use cues to help your listeners. And by the way, there is a very fine line, I think between being purposeful with your cues and being manipulative with your cues. And that is the hardest thing in my line of work. And I don't know if you have this as well as you teach communication, which is your intention has to be good. Your intention has to be pure. When I'm on stage, my entire goal is to make it as easy and as fun to listen to me as possible. So I'm trying to add these cues in to outline. This is interesting. This is difficult. Now watch the video. We're here on this. We're talking about three different points. Here are the three, so that you are as I'm taking all that load for you. Same thing with warmth and competence. I don't want you to showcase warmth cues. If you don't actually like someone. We talk about that a lot here. If I can give you any kind of phrase, I can teach you how to disarm. I can teach you to, to deceive, diffuse. I can teach you to diffuse. But if, if your intent is in the bad, the bad spot, if you're not in a good state of mind, it's all for not. That's, that's the, that's the, uh, the dark arts as I call it. You don't, you don't really do that. Can I give one study on why, why this is true? Yes. So I can teach you all the cues in the world, but if you have ill intention, they're going to leak. And the way I know this is they took a very disgusting. They did a very disgusting study where they had people come into their lab and they had them put on sweatsuits, which catches their sweat. And they have them run on the treadmill. So you get really sweaty in these sweatsuits. The second group put on sweatsuits and skydived for the first time. So like terror sweat, they took these sweat samples and they had unsuspecting participants smell each of these samples. And they had no idea what they were smelling. They had no idea they were literally smelling armpits. But what they found was when people smelled the skydiving sweat, the fear sweat, their own amygdala lit up, they actually caught the fear. Whereas when they smelled the treadmill sweat, nothing happened. In other words, if you are afraid people can smell it, our cues are contagious in so many ways that we don't realize. So we have to have a base of warmth and competence and goodness. And that is going to showcase. We just have to highlight it with specific cues. Absolutely. It's always the how to communicate kindness. You gotta, you gotta be able to balance it out. I'm curious, Vanessa, before we ended, what are you most excited about right now? Where do you, what are you nerding out about? We're two communication nerds right now. What's, what's a hot topic for you? I am studying the science of conversation, which you and I both love. Specifically. I want to know what questions open people up in safe ways. I think there's been a lot written about conversations, conversations that are vulnerable and that's great for extroverts who really want to share their life stories. That's not so great for introverts or ambiverts. And so for example, we did a early research study where we looked at different kinds of conversation starters. And we found that the question, what's your story? People either love it or hate it. Extroverts tend to love it. Introverts tend to hate it. And that's a question that doesn't serve everyone. So I'm very curious what are questions that help everyone feel comfortable in opening up? And so I'm doing some research on, on that right now. You'll see on my, you follow me on Tik TOK or Instagram. I am constantly running question experiments and showcasing how different questions can serve us. You are always amazing to talk to Vanessa and always so engaging. I want you to tell my listeners real quick about your science of people. I want them to know about this. Yes. So I run science people. We've been around since 2012 doing research on human behavior, specifically for high achieving professionals. So I specialize in very talented, very smart, busy people who need to communicate better and at a master level, like at a very advanced level. So they are trying to pitch, present, sell, negotiate, coach, whatever that is. We have both professionals and side hustlers and entrepreneurs. And so we have a big foundational course called people school, which is basically a college level course on communication. I teach a version of it at Harvard in the Springs. And so we have all kinds of professionals from all over the world go through it. It's a virtual and I'm constantly adding to it. I do live office hours every month and it's my pride and joy because it's the, it's the course I wish I had had. And so I just love it. I love it so much. That's fantastic. Vanessa, thank you so much for spending the time with me. If you're listening right now, you need to go find Vanessa. She's not only the science of people, which is incredible website, their articles are fantastic. You need to go check out the people's school. And then on top of that, um, go get her books. All right. She's got captivate. She's got, I was accused. Yeah, those are, those are excellent. And I know she's got a lot of surprises up her sleeve and anytime you see her on a podcast, listen to it because it's incredible. Vanessa, thanks for your time. I hope to see you again soon. Thank you. Thank you. Bye everyone.