Alli Webb | Drybar Founder Who Started From $0 and Sold for $255M on Reinvention, Grit, and Building a Beauty Empire

You exited your company for $255 million. I mean, when I tell you, it felt like a dream. Like, it was so, it was so crazy. Like, you're a stay-at-home mom, you're cutting hair to make some money on the side. I don't think that I ever came at this from like, oh, I want to make a bunch of money. It was really more of like, what do I need to do for like my soul? At what point did you realize that this small business that I started, I can actually scale to multiple locations and eventually an empire? There was so much press, there was so much excitement. Everybody wanted a dry bar. So what we think we were fearful of is that we had so many people on our tail. What do you mean by people on your tail? Copycats. Copycats. Tons of copycats. You were a shark on Shark Tank. Yes. When you were on there, what did you look for as an investor when you were wanting to invest in the companies? Shark Tank was an interesting thing because- If you've got one guiding principle that you could leave with the younger generation, what would that be? What's going on, everyone? And welcome back to the School of Hard Knocks podcast. I'm James. I'm here with Jack and Josh, and we've got an incredible guest for you guys today. We're out in Austin, Texas right now with the woman who built one of the most influential and iconic beauty brands of all time. She turned a single blowout bar into what, a $200 million exit that you- $255 million, yeah. $255 million. We're here with Ali Webb out in Austin, Texas. Thank you for being with us today. Thanks for having me. Love being with you guys. We're super happy to have you here, but I wanna get things started off by going back to this exact moment, right? You're a stay-at-home mom. You're cutting hair to make some money on the side. What was that moment when you kind of had that, you know, come-to-Jesus moment where you're like, I wanna go all in. I wanna go out and build an empire and something that's gonna forever last? I mean, for the people that don't know, you've got your stores, your brick-and-mortar business that's now in Saudi Arabia, all over the world now. What was that moment? Well, I wasn't cutting hair. I was blow-drying hair on the side, although I did cut hair in salons for many years. And, you know, it's funny when you talk about it in retrospect like that, it's like, oh, I must have had this grand plan and this big idea, like, for world domination, which I didn't, you know? It was like, which I think is just an important thing to point out, you know, especially, I would imagine you guys hear this all the time when you talk to people, but it's like, I think if you look at all these successful businesses, the best ideas really start from, you know, passion and personal necessity and all of those things. And that was really the case for me. I mean, you know, it's like, it's not a big, grandiose story. Like, I was a stay-at-home mom, and I thought I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, and after about five years of being a stay-at-home mom with my boys, and, you know, I love my kids more than anything, but I was like, I just, I have to do something for myself. I felt so, like, I wasn't, like, utilizing my brain in the way I wanted to enough, and I was just, like, kind of starving for something else. And so, because I had done hair for so many years, I started a mobile blowout business in LA, which is, like, basically me driving around town with a duffel bag full of brushes and blow dryers, and then, you know, blow drying women's hair. I think the thing that's interesting is that I, you know, I don't think that I ever came at this from, like, oh, I want to make a bunch of money. I was just, it was really more of, like, what do I need to do for, like, my soul at this point? Because I was, you know, I loved my kids, and, I mean, I ended up getting divorced from their dad, and that's probably a piece of it that I just was, like, kind of searching and missing something, and, but I was very fulfilled with my kids until I was, like, wait, I got to go do something for myself. And I, you know, I wanted to get this business up and off the ground quickly, so I was only charging 40 bucks to go to women's homes, which is, like, incredibly cheap. I mean, this was, like, 16, 17 years ago, and even then, it was incredibly cheap. You know, it was, like, you couldn't get a blowout at your house for less than 150 or 200 bucks, you know, and I just wasn't thinking about the money piece of it. I was thinking more about the mental, like, I really need to do something for myself, and so that business is really what, like, was the launchpad or the springboard for Drybar. I didn't know it at the time, and so I didn't set out to, like, oh, I'm gonna start this mobile blowout business, then I'm gonna turn it into a brick and mortar, and I'm gonna turn it, you know, into this big thing. I wasn't thinking that way. You know, I was just, like, I wanna do something that feels really good to me, and it did. You know, it really scratched that itch for me at the time of, like, I've gotta do something for myself, something that's fulfilling to me, and I got really busy really fast, and then very quickly came to, like, a crossroads of how do I expand this thing? Like, I'm onto something, you know, and that's when I went to my brother, Michael, who's my business partner in all my endeavors, and I was like, you know, I have too many clients and not enough of me. I didn't wanna expand with other stylists, so I was like, I think I should turn this into a brick and mortar, and, you know, it was such a, like, you know, flyer of an idea, because nobody had done it. You know, it was like, there were hair salons that did blowouts, but they, you know, they historically, again, charged a very high price because hairstylists didn't wanna be doing just blowouts because that hour of their time could be spent doing cut or color, which was far more lucrative than doing a blowout, even though that was expensive, too, which is why they made it expensive, because they wanted that time to be, you know, really, they could cash in more on that time, and so it was just like I turned everything on its head kind of like unknowingly, you know? I was just like, as a client, and from my personal perspective, I was like, I always dreamt of a place like Dry Bar when I was a kid, because I have naturally curly hair, which now I've embraced and started a whole other company based on that, but that was, you know, that was like always my thing, and I couldn't believe that nobody had ever come up with this idea, so long story long, you know, I was like, I think I should open a brick and mortar, and my brother helped me finance it and get it off the ground, and, you know, it just, it took off beyond our wildest dreams, and we were like, holy shit, we're really onto something here. Yeah, Elon Musk has this quote, he calls entrepreneurship, it's like eating glass and staring into the abyss. Yeah. And it seems like it's like, like you said, there wasn't this grandiose plan to try to figure it out. No. It's really that staring into the abyss part of like, I don't know what this necessarily looks like down the road, but I'm just gonna take the most. And I think that that's the thing about being an entrepreneur is like, you have to have comfort with staring down the abyss. You just don't know what's coming, and you have to be like, okay, with not knowing what's coming, which is really an interesting point, because I'm really not okay with that in any other area of my life, as I'm thinking through that, but being an entrepreneur, I'm like, let's just go for it. It's like, let's just see what happens. And that was really it. I mean, I remember people being like, I don't think the concept of a blow dry bar was, I cannot tell you how many women came up to me and were like, I had this idea. I didn't know how to execute it, which is also part of like, being an entrepreneur, that risk and that like, you're like, man, fuck it, I'm just gonna try it. And that's really how I was. And that's how I'm like, no fear around that. And maybe I just was like, no one's gonna die. We could all lose some money. Okay, and if we do, then we'll go figure something else out. And so I just didn't have that. And I think you have to have that. Like, I don't really care. Not that I don't care, but if it fails, it fails. And we just go figure out something else. Like for me, I just don't have any fear around that. Other areas of my life have a lot of fear, which is a really interesting thing to ponder. You know? What do you think that is? I don't know. I mean, you just unlocked something, Jack. Shit, I gotta call my therapist now. I'll be like, huh. Because I'm so like, you know, I'm just so like, you know, I don't have any fear of starting a company. You know? To me, it's like, and it's interesting because I talk to so many entrepreneurs and I mentor so many entrepreneurs. And I'm like, you know, just go and do it. And just, you know, and they're like, ah, what if it doesn't work? And what if I lose my, I'm like, so? What, okay, what if it does work, you know? And really, statistically, most don't, right? So there should be that fear. I love that you brought up how, you know, everybody was saying, oh, I had this idea, but they didn't take the action like you. Right. Well, that's the thing. And I remember those conversations like they were yesterday. And I remember being like, why are people saying that to me? You know, I'm like, and then I was like, is ignorance bliss? Like, we were also at the tail end of a recession. It was 2009. And I think, and people were like, I don't know how you're gonna make this business work because we were charging $35. And so, you know, and I, as not like a- For a blowout. For a blowout, yeah. So, you know, as like not a very strong math person, I was like, huh, how many blowouts do we have to do in a day to make this business work? I had, honestly, I had no idea. And luckily my brother was like starting to run some numbers. And it, you know, and we thought, you know, what we ultimately came up with was like, if we were doing, I mean, I kid you not, probably 30 to 40 blowouts a day, whatever the math is on that. It's not very much. Over how many locations? Just one, just one. Just Brentwood, one shop. How many blowouts do we have to do? There's eight chairs. How many can we do in it? I mean, we could do close to a hundred if we were like at full capacity and stuff, which we weren't for so long. And I didn't know that I was gonna be sitting in that first chair doing blowouts too, which I had to because it was just so busy. But I mean, 30 to 40 blowouts was like what we were hoping to reach. Which, you know, which is funny because after, I don't know, a week, we were like, holy shit, we're doing 70 to 80 blowouts a day, which was well past what we thought we were gonna do and prepared for. Like we didn't have enough stylists. It was just like a total shit show in the beginning. But it was intoxicating and amazing. But that's when we were like, oh my God, we're onto something. Like this is gonna be a thing. Like, you know, women really want this. And I think, you know, from an execution standpoint, my brother and I, our parents had clothing stores when they were growing up. So we kind of watched how they did it. And, you know, we understood the importance of customer service. We had this amazing architect that my brother knew that had built, you know, million dollar homes and hotels. And he really helped us like map out what it was gonna look and feel like. He was the first person who ever taught me the phrase surprise and delight, which was more from an architectural standpoint of like, you know, when you walk in Drybar, you're kind of like assaulted with all this, like the music and the decor and everything. And then you walk into the shampoo room and it's a complete, there's a shift, but you're like, oh, this is so cute. And then you walk in the bathroom and the bathroom's really cute, which was smart because we knew women were gonna take pictures of themselves in the bathroom, which they did, you know. But it was just all of these things that really came together for us that, you know, back to thinking about execution, like what's interesting is like when you look at the landscape of the copycats and there were so many, I mean, we had so many cease and desist letters out there because so many people were knocking us off. The thing about it, which was scary at first, these guys aren't, they don't even know what they're doing. You know, it's a very opportunistic thing. Like, oh, let's hire some stylists and call it a blow-dry bar, which, you know, my experience, our collective experience, like there were so many, you know, thousands of details that went into Drybar being Drybar that made it very hard to duplicate. And people just didn't realize that, you know. What did you learn about pricing? Because I feel like this is something that not a lot of entrepreneurs or business owners talk about. And I would imagine that you didn't keep those blowout prices at $35 forever. Well, I tried to. I tried to keep it at 35 as long as possible because we had, we were really, we had captured this like affordable luxury. And also, again, coming out of a recession when women were pulling back on getting cuts in color, which was, you know, three to $500. I mean, in LA, I mean, it's probably, I mean, that's probably about right still, but they were not doing that as much. There's like an old thing about like, you know, women will always buy lipstick in a recession because it's cheap and easy and it's a quick pick-me-up, you know, and I think the fact that we were $35 kind of was that same kind of thinking that like, oh, you know, and that's really what I noticed is that women were doing less color. You know, it was like a great blowout, kind of camouflage the fact that you need color haircut because like now your hair looks amazing. And so at $35, you know, women were coming in in droves. And I liked like hanging my hat on that affordable luxury and like where the thing about Drybar, as you know, is like it looks and feels really high end. And that was a very, very strategic decision, but the price point isn't there. And that you would expect when you walk into a place that looks like that, that feels like that, that you're treated like that. You know, I always, I think that personally, like I lived in New York City and LA most of my adult life. And I just, I really remember the feeling of walking into a fancy like salon and just feeling really insecure because I didn't have the right bag or I didn't, you know what I mean? And I was like, I don't ever want that experience. I want this to feel very mom and pop, but then the juxtaposition of the fact that it feels really high end and expensive, but it's not, you know, and so I think that that was kind of the, they see part of the secret sauce for us. It's like, we really made this affordable and available to a lot of women. But, you know, then we had our high users, like women who were like in, you know, heavy users. They were in like two, three times a week, whereas like, but most women would come in like maybe once every two weeks, maybe once a month. But then, you know, the business sustained itself by those, you know, women we loved who were in, they weren't washing their own hair anymore, you know? Something a lot of entrepreneurs get stuck on is that I need to provide multiple services. I need to have the cut and color. I need to do the nails. I need to have a bunch of services that I can provide to the customer. And you went all in on one service, just going through blowouts. Yeah. Why, like, did you ever have that temptation to offer multiple services? And why did you ultimately decide not to do so? Well, I didn't have the temptation to do it because I knew just from the jump, like running this business and finding stylists to do blowouts, like that was so challenging in and of itself. And I always felt like I wanted, like we were known for one thing and I wanted us to be the best at it. And I knew how hard that was to execute that, which was incredibly hard for a million reasons. But our investors, you know, as we started raising money, our investors were like, oh, you have this captive audience of, you know, at that point when we started raising, I think we had maybe six or seven stores and they were like, holy shit, you have a hundred women, give or take, coming in each store per day. Like, you could sell them a lot of things. Have you thought about doing manicures? Have you thought about doing lashes or makeup or whatever? You know, I think that it was more of like, I don't think I would be good at that. Like, I think, I was like, I don't know those things the way I know hair. Like I knew, I could walk into a dry bar at any time and look and see every woman and I could see who wasn't liking her blowout. You know, I would just, I could read her and be like, and you know, and I would always make it a point to go over and be like, you know, how are you, blah, blah. And then try to like, see like if she's annoyed because she's frustrated, she doesn't like the way her hair's coming out or whatever, she doesn't like about the experience. You know, and so like that piece of it was so important. And so in my mind, I was like, if we kind of convolute this and add all these other services we're gonna go from being really great and the best at one thing to being like, okay, even good at a lot of things, you know? And I just, I didn't want to do it. And I think that the pendulum will swing and I think we'll start to see that again, where it's like, cause I get it from a convenience standpoint. And when women would ask me, they're like, I wish I could be getting a manicure right now. It'd be so time effective. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. I want that too. But I just, I can't sacrifice the quality of what we're doing, you know? And it's kind of like the In-N-Out Burger model. I mean, it's a lofty comparison, but it's like they, you know, it's like, you can't go buy a chicken sandwich at In-N-Out Burger. You just can't, you know? The riches are in the niches. Yeah, exactly. Wow, I never heard that. But the, you know, it's like, I remember feeling, we used to talk about that a lot. It's like, you just can't and you just, this is what you get. But it's gotta be spectacular and amazing. And there was so much to pull off with making that successful that anytime an investor was like wanting us to do that, I was like, we're definitely not. And if you're not on board with that, you're not the right partner. You said you didn't start off with a grandiose plan. You're just like, hey, I just can't keep doing this myself. So you start the first location. At what point did you realize that this small business that I started, I can actually scale to multiple locations and eventually an empire? Well, I mean, the demand was crazy. I mean, that's the whole thing about Drybar was like, I mean, when I tell you it felt like a dream, like it was so, it was so crazy. Like, and having worked in hair salons, it's like, you know, it takes a while as a stylist to build a book. And when a hair salon opens, it takes time for like everybody in the neighborhood to know about it. It's like a kind of a general, like a slow build or ramp. But with Drybar, it was such a, you know, we hit everything from the price point to the experience, the way it looked and felt and, you know, all of that, that, you know, women were just coming out in droves. And so we knew we were very quickly, like we are sitting on a huge opportunity and there's so much demand for this. You know, and we were always chasing supply. You know, it was like getting enough hair stylists in the shops to do the blowouts and then making sure that the stylists were up to par. And that, I mean, that would forever become the biggest thing that, especially for me, sitting in board, you know, fast forward to like six, seven years later, sitting in, you know, boardrooms, talking to the board about, you know, we could be maximizing the business more. I'm like, but we got to get more stylists in, you know? And it's like, we have stylists who come to us who just weren't good enough when they came to us. Like we had, we instituted like a major training program so I could get stylists ready. And there was always this healthy rub between like me and my styling team and like the managers of shops because obviously the more blowouts we do, the more money comes in, the more, you know, the top line, you know, really grows. But I was like, I was so nervous always about, like if we just allow stylists on the floor that aren't ready, that aren't giving an amazing blowout, it's back to that, like being the best at one thing, you know, so we had, it was just, I mean, never, we just never had enough stylists. And we had probably like 5,000 stylists, you know? I mean, at the peak of the brand. And so it was like, it was, it was, luckily for us, it was a good problem to have. There was so much demand and so many women wanted a dry bar in their city. And that was also kind of what led to me wanting to start a product division, which was like, okay, and I wrote my first book. It was called The Dry Bar Guide to Good Hair for All. It was a very like tutorial book of like, how do you blow out bangs? Like, how do you get all the different styles? Because I was like, well, you don't have a dry bar near you, which most people didn't. Like, you can buy the products and tools that we're using in our shops and here's a book on how to do it. So we capitalized on that, knowing that women wanted it, you know? So it was, we were kind of always trying to keep up with the demand. So we just, we couldn't open stores fast enough, really. Was that the biggest challenge while you were scaling? The team thing, like bringing, when stylists would come to you and they just didn't meet the par, when you were scaling to so many locations, making sure the quality of the team at all these locations, was that your biggest challenge that you guys had? Yeah, it really was. There was, that really was one of the biggest, by far the biggest challenge, was getting enough stylists. And it's like, other, like now, running messy, right? It's like, I can, we can get as much, within reason, we can get the ingredients to make product and we can just keep making it. There's no human element there. Stylists, there was getting stylists, and it's also a labor-intensive job. So even stylists that we got, they could only work a certain amount of hours. It was just, it was really tiring for them. So it was just constantly trying to figure that out. I mean, at one point, I wanted to open a school, and start just training them ourselves. There was so much bureaucracy and red tape with that, that we never, and we didn't have the bandwidth to do it, but, you know. You got your initial capital from your brother, and you kind of had a deal where, I'm gonna be the one working, putting this thing together, and you're gonna inject some capital into business. And I recently just interviewed, a fellow Shark Tank member, Robert Herjavec, out in Beverly Hills. And he told me that he got a piece of advice from the founder of Avis Rental Car, which, and I can't remember the exact quote, but it was so good. And he was talking about how, one of your greatest things that you can do as a business owner is go get an equity partner, as opposed to initially just raising a bunch of money. And so, but you kind of did both, right? Because like you said, I think you got to six or seven locations, and then you decided to go raise some private equity money. What is your perspective on raising capital now, looking back, right? Because there's a big risk as a business owner that if you take on a lot of money, and you're giving a lot of control over to other people when you're the ideal decision maker, what is your perspective on it? Well, not only control, like now having been on the other side of sold a company, I mean, you know, I don't have really any regrets, but I would say, I wish I had had more equity when I sold my company. And I think that that's like, that was, you know, my brother and I had a lot of conversations early on about like, you know, owning, having a small piece of a big pie or owning a big piece of a small pie. He loved to talk about that. I mean, we talked about it ad nauseum because it is this thing. And, you know, and I look at companies like, have you interviewed Sarah Blakely? No, I need to go. Yeah. Spanx, right? Yeah, Spanx. But she didn't take, I don't know. I don't know exact on her. I believe she didn't take any capital for a long, long time. Only recently I think. I don't even think she sold the whole thing. I think it was a majority. But anyways, I remember looking at her business being like, gosh, it's amazing. But it's a different path. And that company, and again, I don't know enough about it. But from what I think I know is that she just, you know, she built it from the ground up. And I have other friends who've built companies like that, that they're just, they're kind of in it for the long haul, and they're not looking to sell anytime soon. And not that I was dying to sell the company, but what we think we were fearful of, which was true, is that, you know, we had so many people on our tail. And that if we didn't continue to like open more and more stores, at least that's what we thought. What do you mean by people on your tail? Copycats. Copycats. Tons of copycats. Tons of other blowjobs. I mean, you know, there was, it's like the double-edged sword. There was so much press. There was so much excitement. Everybody wanted a dry bar. So we were like, we got to go and we got to do this. And the only way to do that quickly was to raise capital. So momentum was very important. Very important. And it was like, we could have chose to do it organically. It would have taken twice as long. I mean, we were in it for 10 years. It would have taken, and not only would it have taken twice as long, somebody else would have like, you know, outpaced us because they would have, somebody else would have been, and we were even scared of somebody else being more well-funded to go and open more. I believe that, you know, we had such an unbelievable like secret sauce between my brother who understood the business side, my ex-husband who was the creative genius. I understood this business really well. It would have been very hard and it was hard. And the copycats, in my humble opinion, never were able to like measure up to us, but they sure tried. And so if, you know, I remember, God, I haven't thought about this stuff in so long, but I remember my brother and I having conversations and him being like, you know, somebody with really deep pockets could come along and have the resources to open stores much faster than us, which we were opening very fast, but somebody else could have done it. So we kind of felt like if we were going to really go for this, we had to raise money. And looking back, like I don't, again, I don't regret it because it got us, you know, 10 years, and it sounds like a long time, goes by very, very fast. And so, you know, we would never have gotten to where we got to if we hadn't raised money. I mean, those stores, initially I think they were half a million dollars to build, you know, but when it was all said and done, I think it was a million dollars to build those stores. So you can imagine like that's a lot of capital. I mean, our first raise was 26 million, which we were like, you know, I didn't want to raise 20. Michael didn't want to raise 26 million either. We were hoping to raise like 10, you know, or 15 at tops, and then, you know, private equity wants to put in more. And so they did, and it was actually the right decision because like some of that money was earmarked for a product. But yeah, it's just, you know, it's kind of like, what do you want? You know, do you want to be in this for 20 years or do you want to, you know, be in this for, I mean, I feel like we used to always say, we'll sell in three to five years, you know, and it's like year seven. And we're like, well, here we are, you know. Take real quick, take us back. Because when I first interviewed you, I had asked you how you felt about copycats. And I know that the three of us, we think of copycats as we want to crush them. Yeah. You, I remember correctly that you would drive by to some of these people and you would go in there and see what they're doing. Can you kind of talk us through your strategy about how you, your team, your brother, like we're just staying ahead of the competition because one of the biggest business rivalries that always fascinated me was like the whole Coke and Pepsi thing about how one would move and then the other one would move. And it was that constant kind of thing. What was your thought process on dealing with that? I was initially very scared. I mean, I would, I was, I was, we were tracking what everybody was doing. What I think we came to learn was that nobody was doing it as well as us and nobody understood how much it took. And like, like I said, like the millions of details that went into what the whole overall experience was dry bar, nobody really could captivate or capture that. And, and I remember it was like, it was, it was more of a drip to learn that, you know, cause I was, I mean, I, I would lose sleep over it for sure. Cause I, and not only that, I was so giddy and excited about this business. So if you came in and talked to talk to your client, there's a story here, you know, came in, I would talk to everybody about what we did, how we did it. Like I was not very guarded with it because I was so proud of it and wanted to talk about it all the time. And, and I had these beautiful conversations with so many clients. One woman went and opened, basically, you know, took my, everything I told her and went and opened like a location in somewhere like outside of San Francisco and then wrote me an email and said, Hey, you were really gracious and talked to me for so long about your business. And I just kind of needed to clear her conscious and say, Hey, I actually went and did my own thing and she kind of felt bad about it. And I was so mad. I mean, I wish I could find that email cause I was like, I was so mad and I, but I was, you know, and that was so early on. And then, you know, and then what I realized about her business and all the other ones was they just didn't have the thing that we had that made us so special. And then I started to hear from clients, you know, clients would be like, Oh, I couldn't get into dry bar, which was always a huge problem too. So I went to the copycat down the street. This is how they would say it to me. I went to the copycat. They didn't even say the name and yeah, it just wasn't that great. I don't know why I didn't love my hair. Like I knew why I, cause I would go and study it and be like, the lighting's wrong. The music's wrong. They they're probably not training their stylist. Well, like I, it was a laundry list of things I could go down and say, I know why you didn't like that experience. You know, we worked so hard to create that experience. So slowly, but surely that kind of, you know, that, that like feeling of being angry and frustrated very quickly turned into like, you just don't, you just, you're not going to be able to execute as well as we are. And then, and it started to like, I started to chill out. And then I was like, then I actually started to flip and be like, Oh, I actually think the copycats are good because they are, they were generally raising awareness in the market for blowouts. Because even though LA and New York were like, they got it, Dallas, like they got it. When we, as we started to open in other cities across the U.S., it was like, there was a little bit of a hurdle of like women who hadn't heard of a blowout. Like I, so many women would say to me like, what's a blowout, you know? And so there was a behavior change that was important that needed to happen. And, and other copycats who, who would get to market before us, which always kind of would drive me crazy initially, but then we, they would be, they would get to market and, you know, and, and, and be an option. And then Drybar would come to town and they'd be like, Oh, this is so much better. You know? So they were like, you know, kind of re-seeing the wheels for us to come in and like really show them how it's done. And so, you know, my, my relationship to copycats really shifted over the years. And I was like, it's great. I didn't like when they would call themselves Drybar or they'd be like, Sally's Drybar, or they'd have, I kid you not, people would like put pictures of me and like, are like on their website. And I was like, you can't do that. You know, there was some weird stuff that happened when people were copying. We had interviewed Steve Madden in New York. And I guess like when we kind of finished up shooting the interview, I guess a woman walked by and he stops her on the street and he asked her, Hey, what are your shoes? Like, tell me about them. And just hearing you talk about like, even just like observing like what the copycats were doing and like even every little detail, like the lighting, the music, like, I feel like that that is what ultimately made your company successful is like how detail oriented your process was for your customer. Yeah. Yeah. It really, I mean, it is so true and it's so shocking, literally shocking to me how many businesses, and I'm sure you guys feel this too, you walk in and you're like, we talked about that when you interviewed me. I'm like, no, why, why, why are you not like, people are giving you their hard earned money. That's how I always thought about it. And, and I, if I'm, if I have the responsibility of taking your money for some giving you something in return, I want to make it the best I can make it and, and have thought of everything I can think of, you know, and, and I am always shocked when people, when I walk into most places that it's just, there's so many details they're leaving. And you know, the difference when you walk into someplace that's like buttoned up, you're like, somebody really gives a shit. Somebody really cares. And then there's just a completely different thing to it that, you know, that, that most business owners miss. I feel like maybe it's getting better, but I don't know. I still walk in places and I'm so annoyed about so many things. And I'm like, this could be so much better. Why are you not paying attention to the details? So to your point, I think those are, you know, the businesses and the companies that rise to the top because they are paying such, such important, such close, you know, detail to those, those little things. And it's just, you know, and I think that like either you have that or you don't, or, you know, I mean, I guess you can go and learn that. And hopefully someone listening to this podcast will be like, am I really paying attention to my business? Chances are they're not, you know? And it's easy to like, you know, it's like, we just want to like kick back and be like, I've got a successful company. And, and, and, and that's the thing too. It's like, you can have this great idea and this great thing, but then it's not being executed well, or the shop or the whatever's dirty, or the music's bad at the cause of the people working there don't want to be there. It's like, there's so many little things and it's, it's always such a big opportunity. I know none of us love coffee cats, but a perspective that I love is, although we may not like them, you'll like, we usually start to get worried when they stop copying. It's clearly you have something that works, right? And people that are interested and want to, you know, continue to do more of. When you're scaling so aggressively, you have, you know, you're like, Hey, I need more investors. We need more capital. Why did you ultimately decide to just keep doing all the, like all the locations yourself instead of like doing franchising, for example? Well, we did it. We, we kind of vacillated back and forth between that, you know, the LA shops, which were the initial ones were, were all company owned. And then when we were trying to open in Dallas and, and, you know, it was like kind of always this puzzle of like, how much capital capital do we have to open our own stores? And then we can grow the brand if we, you know, allow franchisees like in Dallas and Arizona is franchise and other places were franchise. Cause now we're, we're kind of spreading the word, but, but not at, not on our dime. But then it's like, then you have a lot of other problems with like franchisees who are, you know, entrepreneurs in their own, right. And so they have their own ideas and they want to do things. And you're like, well, you know, the, the way I always thought about it is like, there's a lot of ways to do things, right. There's one way that we do it. And that's what we want from our franchisees and not everybody subscribed to that. So it was kind of, you know, we kind of went back and forth and, and honestly, it was very hard because you're, you're running essentially two businesses. Like you have, you know, to run a franchise conglomerate requires a lot of, a lot of different things than running a corporate owned company, you know, and honestly, I can make the argument that both are good and both are bad. You know, it kind of just depends on what, what you want, you know, but it was, it was always a real challenge for us figuring out how to, you know, maneuver in that and what we wanted to do. But I, at the end of the day, I mean, of the 150 stores when we sold, I would say probably 70-ish were company owned and the rest were franchised. But also we would franchise like markets that we weren't going to get to like Louisville, Kentucky, like it was actually a great store, but it's not ours. It wasn't ours, you know? And it's like, we can let Louisville go like, you know, or, or a store is going to have like one off as opposed to like LA that had like 25 stores. And we really wanted to be close to that. It was also in my backyard, you know? So there was a lot of decisions, a lot of factors that went into that decision. Are there challenges of scaling to different locations of the country? And like, cause like what may work in LA may not work in Kentucky, for example. So how do you go about doing that market research of what may work here, may not work here and changing that up? Yeah, well, it's a good question because, you know, one that we kind of had to learn the hard way because in LA, cause I lived in, I've lived in LA for 25 years. Like I knew where to be, I knew our women, I just knew naturally behavior of women. When you open a place like Kentucky, I don't know anything about it. So we, we really needed to lean on not only real estate agents, but like get as many, like find out who the women, like what their, how their, how they moved through their lives and their neighborhood. And, and really actually, I think the best example of that was when we were opening a store in Long Island, New York, and I knew the city, but I didn't know Long Island very well. And we were kind of going back and forth between two shopping centers. And what we ended up opening in the shopping center that was the wrong one because, and you wouldn't know it as an outsider. Turns out that what, again, we learned the hard way, it was like the, where that shopping center was located was just harder to like physically get to the parking was hard. Like it just, women just naturally went to the other one because of the way it was located and situated, whatever. And it really like hurt the bit, like we couldn't, it was really hard to grow that shop because it was a pain for women to get to. And you know, right across the street. So you'd think like that doesn't matter, but it all really matters. And that was the other thing. It was like, we were always putting dry bars next to like kind of common use. So we wanted there to be like a nail salon, perhaps like a grocery store, like daily use things that women would do, you know, a workout, whatever it was like in that shopping center, you know, dry bar would kind of round it out. And so that was important too. You know, we didn't, we always wanted to be like in that versus like, you know, you're just going to a, like a destination for dry bar. When you were bringing on investors, one of the things that you want to have is like, not all money is good money. And are, were you looking for investors that had that experience of like actually franchising business and bringing out that business to different markets? Or what were some of the things you were looking from like the investors to help scale that and make that happen? Yeah. It's such an important point. I mean, you know, it's like we always said, we're not going to just take a check from anyone and it's like a marriage, right? Like you are, you are working very closely with these people and if they don't share your vision, if they don't get what you're doing and, you know, kind of in lockstep with what you're trying to build is it can be a disaster. I mean, and, and, and so we, we were really, and that was something that when we were going through a formal process and, you know, kind of back to what we were saying before about multi-use, like more services, a lot of the investors that we met with initially were like, hey, have you guys thought about doing this, this, that? And we'd be like, no, we want to keep it really simple. And you just kind of knew that they weren't aligned with that. And I was like, we're not, no, we're not doing that. This is not going to ultimately be the right partner, you know? So we were very discerning about who we would take money from for that very reason. And we actually almost did a deal. And then at the 11th hour, like our, our lawyer, Jeff, who's a dear friend of ours and was the, uh, the Dallas owner, him and his wife, you know, wrote us like a Jerry Maguire letter. Do you guys know that movie or are you? I've, I've, I've heard of the movie. I haven't seen it. Oh, you have to see it. You haven't seen it. Oh my God. You have to see it. It's like, it's so good. And it's like, there's a scene where he's like, show me the money. Like you would love it. Isn't that Tom Cruise? Yeah. Do you know who that is? Just kidding. You guys just interviewed him. Um, oh, but it's so good. No, I totally lost my train of thought. Um, why did I bring Jeff Dallas? Oh yes. Thank you. So he, oh yes. He wrote us what we refer to as the Jerry Maguire email because he was like, don't do this deal. Like, don't do that. Which, which is like, you got to see the movie. Um, but this like, you know, 11th hour, like, this is not the right guy. These are not the right guys. It's not the right thing. And so we pulled out of the deal, which was like, Oh, I remember that so well. Cause you know, you've heard deal fatigue. Like that is a real thing. Time kills all deals. Yes. Oh my gosh. So we had been, we had been in, in, you know, negotiations with these guys for so long and then to have to start the whole process over. It was like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. But it was, you know, better than the making the deal. And then we ended up with a really great partner in Castaneda, which is now stride. But, and then, and then our, that was like our, the 26 million was our first big tranche. And then we raised with, um, another, uh, private equity firm called work and they, they owned, or they were, I don't think they outright owned it, but our orange theory was one of their, their clients. And, and, you know, they had done such a great job with scale. So they really understood the franchise piece of it. So we were, you know, pretty well rounded. Talk to me about how, when you were in some of these board rooms and you've got heavy hitters all around, right. These big private equity guys that are writing a lot of money. I remember you talking to me about how in our first interview about, it was ultimately kind of your brother that I think told you, it's like, don't be afraid to run your mouth. Like this is your company, you know, this more than them. And it reminds me, you know, when I interviewed Kendra Scott and one of the things that she talked about, how she got a piece of advice from her father that was don't be afraid of the men in suits. And I'm sure that you've seen it. Um, maybe you experienced it yourself and a lot of other, you know, very prominent, successful women in business, they kind of go in there and they kind of maybe step back. What did you learn about yourself and any advice you could pass on to somebody maybe in a similar situation? Well, and I think that, you know, I also grew up in an era where it was, you know, there, there were other female entrepreneurs, you know, and so everything was run by the man. And so there was this like kind of natural society, like, you know, intimidation or, you know, like men run businesses. And, you know, and we've now, you know, like Kendra Scott and other, you know, really successful other female entrepreneurs, we were shifting that. But yeah, I think that I was just naturally intimidated. And it really was my brother who was like, like, you know, like you're referring to, like, I would, I would text him under the table and meetings and my question, and he would be like, you should ask that. And he really, so he really gave me my sea legs and my confidence to be like, speak up, you know, and even, even Steve Berg, who was, you know, our, our, our main guy at Castaneda. And he was, you know, he was, he did say to me, like, he was like, you, this, this was your idea. We're all here because of you. Like you, you, you need to like own that and step into that, you know, and which is, was just really an important subject because, you know, I think over the last however many years we've seen, like, you know, so much, you know, there's, there's like the Me Too movement and, you know, men have really been through it in that, you know, regard. And, and I think there are definitely some bad men out there. I think there's some bad women out there. And it's like, I've had really supportive men. I've been really lucky to have really supportive men who are very, like, pushing me to be, you know, strong and better. And I was really lucky, even our, our CEO, John Hefner, also another great man who was, you know, very respectful to me and very, you know, helpful to my journey of like stepping into this, you know, and, and, and, you know, fast forward to now starting Messy with my brother, we're co-CEOs, you know, and I didn't even really want to be CEO. And I think I didn't want to be CEO because I was intimidated. Like, I shouldn't be a CEO because I'm not a man or something like, which I can't even believe I just said that sentence. But I think that was like, what was kind of ingrained to me and watching other, you know, women I admire, like Whitney Wolfe Hurd. Have you interviewed her? No, not yet. From Bumble? Oh, I need to though. She's a founder at Bumble. Yeah. I feel like she doesn't do a lot of like interviews and press. She's in Austin, I think, though. She is in Austin. She is. We have to make that happen. Yeah. But like, you know, she's a CEO. And, you know, even my friend, you probably don't know this company, Kitsch, but Cassandra Thurswell. Yeah, I'm familiar with it. Yeah. She's a good friend of mine. K-I-T-C-H? K-I-T-C-H or Kitsch. Okay. Okay. I'm thinking about Kith. It's like a clothing company. Yeah, I know Kith, but not that. But no, this is, it's kind of like an accessories company and she's built it from the ground up. I don't think she's taken any money either. She's another really interesting woman. I think she's doing incredibly well. And we've been friends for a while. And we were actually at like a female founder dinner recently. And I brought up how her and I, we live in like the same neighborhood in LA and we walk together sometimes. And I remember her being like, when I was starting Messy, and I was like, I think my brother's going to be the CEO. And she's like, why aren't you going to be the CEO? And I was like, I don't think I want to be the CEO. And she was like, why? You know, and really like pushed me. And I was like, I just don't, you know, and I was like, I just, I'm not good at numbers and spreadsheets and whatever. But, you know, I really have felt like that shifted for me. And maybe it was part of that conversation and part of just like, you know, wanting to like really flex that muscle. And it is like a little like, it is me stepping out of my comfort zone a little. And, but, you know, and me and I, you know, it's again, like, now, starting Messy, which is, you know, my new brand that you guys are very familiar with. It's like, I am, I am running that company, you know. And so even though my brother was initially, initially, he was the CEO, but I was like, I just, I feel like this is like, he's got. his role and I've got my role, but I'm definitely running this company. And I, you know, and I, so I really wanted to be the CEO. And of course he was very open to us being co-CEOs and whatever, but yeah, it took, it took me several years to really step into that, like, you know, my own power. Um, and now, you know, and I, and I hope that that is a, you know, something that motivates other women or girls, you know, to be like, yeah, I can be the boss just as much as any guy can. You exited your company for $255 million. What was that process like and how did it feel afterwards? Well, it was an interesting time because we sold the company almost 10 years to the date of starting it. And I would, but I would say around year seven, eight, you know, my personal life, like really imploded, um, which is how messy came to be. I mean, it was, you know, my marriage was ending. Um, my 13 year old son was really struggling and ended up going into rehab. My mom died. I was like, you know, it was such an interesting, like, just juxtaposition, like this, like I was having all this success. We were gearing up to sell the company. We're in many conversations of where are we going to go? Are we going to IPO? Are we going to, you know, do a private sale? Like, what are we going to do? And, and I was just, I was underwater with everything that was personally going on for me. So it was so, it was so interesting that, you know, I, I really wasn't that close to it, honestly, because I was dealing with so much of my own personal shit that, you know, luckily, you know, we, the company like our, our board, our CFO, our CEO, my brother, like they were very much like kind of leading the charge. And, you know, my brother would like give me updates daily on what was going on. And we were, you know, because at that point we were in, we were just starting to get into a process. Because I would say it took a year to close that deal, which is not that abnormal. But for me, it was, I was a little bit, I was, I was like a little bit, you know, not that close to it. And, and so when it actually happened, I think that I had spiritually and kind of made peace with like, I'm good. I'm good to like walk away from this now. It's been, it had been 10 years and I had gone through a lot in my personal life. And, but I think what I didn't see coming was like the like, holy shit, who am I now? If I'm not the founder of, I mean, I'll always be the founder of Drybar, but I'm not running this company. I'm not like so connected to it like I used to. And it was like a major identity crisis for me. And it's like, you know, I'm always like, careful of how I talk about this, because it's like, oh, boo hoo, you know, it's like, nobody, nobody should feel bad for me, like it's nothing. But, but it was also like a, like, what the fuck do I do now? Like, who am I now? What do I do? You know, and so I was kind of flailing around trying to figure out that. It was also right at the start of COVID. So we sold the company in March of 2020, or February, end of February of 2020. And then COVID hit. And it was just like, you know, I mean, I think everybody, I mean, we were very lucky in that regard. But, you know, major identity crisis for me. And it, you know, now that's five years ago. And, you know, then I wrote my second book called The Messy Truth, which was very cathartic. And it was like, I really wanted, I think I was really longing to give back so much of what I had learned. I learned so much as someone who didn't go to college and doesn't have a degree. I was like, I'm pretty sure I just got like a master's in business, you know, running this company. And so I was like, I just want to write down every lesson that I could conjure up. And that's what The Messy Truth was. And then it was like, all the stuff that was happening in my life as well. And, you know, then it, you know, we tried some other businesses and, but, you know, now coming back and starting Messy, my new hair brand as a plug, you know, has felt really authentic and right, you know, for me, but it took me, it took me five years to get to that, that like windy road. I was joining boards and then I was like, why am I joining? I mean, you're sitting on a board call for four hours, basically talking about numbers, which I was like, what am I doing here? Like, this is not, you know, for me, it's like customer experience, like building a brand, that's what I'm good at, you know? So it was a, it was a windy road to where I am now. What's the biggest change in going from, you know, building a 150 store, right? Brick and mortar type business to now a physical product business? It's glorious. I love it. I love it so much. I mean, that, having that many employees and that many stores, like I'm, I am telling you guys, like few hours would go by where my phone wasn't absolutely buzzing from, and can you imagine? It's like 5,000, 6,000, maybe 8,000. I remember so many employees that it's just, you're constantly, you know, it's just so constant, open seven days a week. So it wasn't even like, oh, you know what? I'm not getting, nothing's going to happen today because it's Monday or Tuesday. Nobody's in the shops. Didn't have that luxury, you know? And like, I wouldn't trade it. I wouldn't do it any I'm proud of it. I'm, I loved it. But to your question, I mean, now, you know, starting a product line and there, there's a lot of work and there's a lot of things that we could do, but instead of, it's of such a different animal. And I, I, and, and I really loved building the product line, the Drybar product line. I mean, that was like something that I, I didn't know that I knew how to do and something I didn't know I could do well, but turned out, you know, I could. And so having the opportunity to kind of flex that muscle, this thing that I actually really loved building, which doesn't require, you know, a huge staff feels, I love it. I'm enjoying it so much. How did you ultimately come up with the idea for Messy? And why did you decide to call it that? Well, you know, it felt like I had started to kind of own this, for better or worse, this kind of messy persona of like being really vulnerable with my audience and being really like authentic as I could be with what was going on in my life, which really started from, you know, like I mentioned when my, you know, my, my husband, my ex-husband and I got divorced and, you know, I was like, no, nobody really cares about this. I'm not like Kim Kardashian where people are like tracking my personal life, but we were the founders of Drybar. And so we had a lot of employees and a lot of people. So we, you know, like had posted about the breakup and it was so interesting how many, how relatable it was to people. And I think that's when I started to lean into like, I need to be really transparent and it, I think it might help a couple people, you know? And then when my son was going through what he was going through, you know, that was, that has been really interesting because I was very intentional about putting that chapter in my book about my son and what he went through and how hard that was for us and how much work that took. And, you know, he was in rehab for almost two years and like the turmoil and the therapy and all the things that I learned, I knew that that would serve so many other women and it did. And so, you know, or families whose kids are, because it's such a like taboo subject, nobody wants to like talk about it. And I didn't either. Like, I was like, you know, I'm this, like, I've been on the cover of magazines and I'm doing all these things. It's like, I should have my shit together. And like, it felt almost like, you know, I felt like ashamed that like, you know, I should have this perfect son and these perfect boys. And so I wanted to shine light on that, that like, it's nothing is perfect. And just because I have all this success here doesn't mean that, you know, I have, I, you know, I made mistakes. I mean, that's a whole other story, but, you know, and so I think I started to really lean into this, like being open and transparent with my life, especially because it looked like from the outside that I had it all, I had it all, you know, and I, and I didn't, you know, I had a lot and, but, and so I really started to embrace that. And the more I embrace it, the more I felt that connection for women. And I cannot tell you how many emails and DMs that I get from women about like, thanks for talking about this and starting to normalize it. It's like, why we don't talk about the real things that are going on in our life. It's like, what are we doing? Like, let's be real. And so I felt really strongly about that. And it's messy. I mean, you know, name somebody in your life who doesn't have something going on that's a little fucking messy in their life. You know, there's, you can't, right. And so I, you know, and then it, what was fascinating about that is it was really like going back to COVID because I wasn't going anywhere like everybody else, I kind of stopped blow drying my hair. And then I started like tinkering with my curls and like, how do I get my hair? How do I like embrace the hair that I have? And it's a little messy. And I kind of liked that. And I started to like, kind of, you know, I haven't gotten a blowout. I mean, I don't get blowouts anymore. I wear my hair like this and I love it. And so I started to embrace that. And it was messy, you know, just so that, you know, the intersection of my personal life being a little bit messy and then my hair starting to be messy, it just was like so perfect, you know, so that's, and then when I called Sephora and I said, Hey, I have this idea for a product line. I want to build something that helps like give women permission to not be perfect and to embrace that, you know, the hair that they have and, and to, you know, give them products and education to support that, you know, I don't think anybody's doing that. And they were like, yeah, they're not. And it's an opportunity. You were a shark on Shark Tank. Yes. What is that experience like? And when you were on there, what did you look for as an investor when you were wanting to invest in the companies that came across the table? Well, you know, Shark Tank was an interesting thing because I remember when I first got the call, which didn't come from my agent, it actually just was like a cold call from the showrunner who had seen me on the cover of Inc. And he was like, Hey, you know, I, I'm the showrunner of Shark Tank. And I was like, okay, you know, really like, why are you calling me? You know? And he was like, we want more female sharks. Would you be interested in doing it? And honestly, my first, my first impression was like, no, I don't want to do it. Because I was so intimidated. I mean, it was, it's like one of the biggest shows on television with really smart people. And I was like, I got like massive imposter syndrome in that moment of like, I don't know if I'm going to be good on it, you know? And, and that was my, my initial feeling. And then, you know, and I, I think I said that to him. I was like, well, I'm not really great at figuring out like valuations on the spot. And he's like, ah, don't worry about that. We'll put you next to Mark, you know? And I was like, okay. So, you know, and then it was like a series of interviews. And then I went to the show one day to watch it and like be behind the scenes so I could see how it all worked. And, you know, it's, it's kind of one of those stories of like, you know, we can psych ourselves out on things that we don't think we're, you know, worthy of, and which is how I felt. But then when I was sitting there on set, and then when I was, when I talked to all the other sharks, and they were so endearing and kind and, and, and I was like, oh, I can totally do this. I'll be actually great at this, you know? And I remember him, Clay is his name, I remember him saying, you've got to interrupt the other sharks. Like, that's just part of the deal. And I was like, that's not going to be a problem, you know? And because they were like, you can't. Well, the one thing we don't want, it won't work, is if you get there and you're shy, you're not speaking up, like then it doesn't work. And I was like, oh, you definitely don't have to worry about that. I have very strong opinions, you know? And I did. And so, you know, and they really embraced me and did sit me next to Mark. And I would, what you don't see in Shark Tank is that, you know, when the camera's on one of the sharks, like, I'd be over on the side with Mark being like, wait, can you give me, like, cause Mark's like a mathematical genius, you know? And I was like, give me the quick numbers on that. And he'd be like, okay, I got it, you know? So, yeah. What did you learn about doing business with close friends and family? Because in Dry Bar, right, your husband was a business partner, your brother was a business partner. How do you feel about that dynamic? You know, I think it can work. I think regardless of whether it's a husband, friend, brother, sister, or just, you know, anybody, I think the key to a great partnership, and I'm curious if this is the case for you guys, is like, everybody knows their lane and everybody respects what everybody else is good at, you know? In our case, my brother was more of like the behind-the-scenes, running numbers, finding leases, like, negotiating deals, like, that's what he did. I was very obviously front of house and front-facing and, you know, informed obviously the product and the training and the customer service. Like, that was my piece. My ex-husband was, you know, the brand genius and mastermind, and that's what he did. And so, it worked so well because we all had, we knew our areas of expertise and we didn't, not that, we discussed all of it together. And if there was like, you know, a difference of like, you know, the ultimate decision would go to the person who's like, that's their thing, you know? So, we kind of would stand out of each other's way when it came to making big decisions because that was kind of their thing. And I've been in partnerships where everybody is like, wants the same job, the same responsibilities. And then that just gets harder because it's like, who gets to be the person who's, you know, whether it's like a, you know, press thing or whatever it is. I think that's when partnerships are really hard, no matter who it's with. It's like, you don't have clear boundaries. Do you guys have that? We believe in the, well, we definitely all have, like, our strengths and we complement each other in a great way. I think what has allowed us to work so well is we're all very honed in on the same vision and the same value system for the company that we're building. But we also believe in the concept of, like, that helps no yes men. Like, meaning, like, we're not afraid to, like, even though, like, we're brothers, we're friends, like, we will argue. Like, we will, like, we'll not be afraid. We will hash it out over decisions. And that's good. Like, even like little thing, even like the time, like, he'll come to me or come to Josh with like the video that's supposed to go out, like the interview. And it'll be like, hey, like, watch this over. What, like, what do you feel about it? And like, I'll give my opinion. I'll be like, that part of the video sucked. Or I'll be like, that was awesome. We should do that. Like, if you don't have that, then like, why are we on the team? Like, why hire people? You know, because everybody has to be able to, like, give, you know, their strategic input. They're there for a reason. Otherwise, it's just like, I'm not paying you to agree with me. It's so true. I mean, I ran into that so much at Drybar where I remember, like, you know, my team would be talking about something and they'd be like, oh, you know, and then I'd walk in and I was like, what? Like, and they just didn't want to tell me like something bad that was happening or whatever. And I was like, you have to tell me. Like, it's for the good of the business. Like, I need to, I need to, like, think of this business holistically and make sure I understand all the things that are happening. Like, don't try to protect me, you know? And so I, I totally agree with that. How do you feel about the current landscape of Drybar today? Because, you know, anytime I see anything Drybar related, I think of you, you know. I saw one when I got Sweetgreen. That's the one right next door. Well, not even that, though. But now you go to like a hotel and they've got like soap. So, so I guess they've kind of been doing some different verticals now. How do you feel about everything that's kind of happened to your company today? I mean, I have mixed feelings. Let us know. Let us know. I mean, I always want to be respectful. But, you know, it is part of the deal when you sell a big company like that, that there is going to be, you know, change. Do you have any involvement at all with any of it? Zero. Zero. And, and also, like, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little, I don't know, like, bummed, hurt, offended that I wasn't asked to stay involved because I wasn't, you know, and, you know, and so, you know, I get countless emails and texts and DMs from people that are like, it's just not the same anymore. And I'm like, well, I'm sure because it was such a, like, passion-led, like, founder-led brand. And now it's not, you know, and so inevitably things are going to change. So it's weird. It's a complicated answer for me because it will always be my legacy and I will always be proud of it. You know, when I hear those, I haven't stepped foot in a dry bar in five years, but when I hear those stories, I'm sad. Not even the one in Saudi? No, none. Is there a reason for that? I think I just... Like, is it a sense of resentment in a way, you think? I just don't, I don't know what the reason exactly is other than, like, I don't think I could stomach it because when I was running it, I was so particular, incredibly over-the-top particular on how everything was, you know, and I'll pass by them and look in the window and be like, you know, because I had, there were so many, when I talk about the details, there are so many details and so many things that were really important to me that I worked my ass off to try to make happen every single day in every single store. It was so hard. So I know that there's no chance that those things are happening the way, to the level that I want them to. I'm sure that, I know the brand is still, like, doing well and I'm happy. I want it to do well. I want it to, like, it's my legacy. Like, I want it to do well. But the level of detail that I feel and that, you know, even when I owned it, I would walk in and be like, you know, I mean, the first, you know, it actually was a lot of, like, therapy with me and John, our CEO, and be like, don't walk in the store and be a raging bitch. Because I would walk in the store and be like, like, so many things are not the way they're supposed to be for me. But like you would walk in the store and be like, this is amazing, you know, which I think is a healthy rub. And as a founder, like, or somebody's got to be that person that's really discerning, you know, and I was always that person. So to walk into it now, having no control over what's happening, I just think I'm like, I don't want it. Like, I want to drive you crazy. Yeah. I want to remember it in its glory days. And so I don't. Yeah. But I will always love the brand. I will always be proud of the brand. And I'm glad that it lives on. And, you know, you just kind of like you emotionally detach. Yeah. Someone you've mentioned a lot is the CEO, John. And when you're scaling, you decided to, you know, make the decision to bring on a CEO. What was... Well, I didn't make the decision. And that was maybe the question that you're getting to is like, our private equity guys at the 11th hour of that deal of, you know, our first big raise pulled my brother aside, who's the CEO and said, hey, you know, at some point, we're probably going to need to bring in a professional CEO. At that point, we were so like, just wanted to fucking close the deal that we were like, okay. I mean, I remember my brother telling me that, like, not right away. And I had such a strong, like adverse response that I was like, I don't want us to have another CEO. Like, I don't want us to lose the magic and whatever. And, you know, and they were rightfully so. Castaneda was looking ahead and going like, this thing is going to get really big. And Michael might not be the guy to do it, you know. And I was like, I didn't... I had like ego for him, you know. And I was really afraid that we were going to bring in this like ivory tower CEO, and they were going to be so disconnected from what we were trying to do and that it wasn't going to... It was just going to like ruin the company culture, you know. And I was wrong about that. But I put up a fight and I was like, you know, made a real big stink about it, you know. And they were like, let us do the work. You know, we're going to go find you a bunch of candidates and we'll only bring you people that we think are great. And I was like, okay. But I'm not going to like anybody, you know. I was such a brat about it. But, you know, we met John and I, you know, John Hefner. And, you know, if you know him, he's from Idaho. He's like the nicest human on the planet. And he's so smart. And he's worked with so many, you know, he worked in so many founder-led organizations, which I think was the key that like someone who really understood it's a very different company. A founder-led company versus like a corporate company is like a completely different animal. So he really understood it. And I remember him saying to us in the initial interview, like with me and my brother, like we're like a three-legged stool. Like this doesn't work without all three of us. And he just, he always really like honored and respected my vision for the company. And we really locked arms and he was amazing. Yeah. We like to end these off with two questions to leave every guest with. Okay. But if you've got one guiding principle that you could leave with the younger generation, with everything that you've known, that you've accumulated, the knowledge, the people, one more message for the younger generation, what would that be? I think it would be lead with kindness. You know, I think that like we've, I think for me, you know, when I initially started running Drybar and I felt like I needed to know everything and have all the answers and be this like strong, powerful person, you know, which I think I am on some level, but I have found that and we get as leaders and I don't know if you guys experienced this, but we're moving really fast and furious. And it's like, you can't forget to be kind to everybody, to the people. who work up and down, you know, the people who work for you, the people who you report to whoever it is, you know, like, I think that, you know, not to get too woo woo, but like kindness and love is like, really what it's all about at the end of the day. And if you don't love what you're doing, you don't love the mission that you're on and you're not being you're not being kind to people, people aren't being kind to you. It's like, what are what are we doing it for? You know, it's like money isn't everything. It's just really not. And if everything was all said and done tomorrow, how would you want to be remembered? Well, first and foremost, as a great mom. And I think with, you know, I don't I don't think I ever really thought much about like my personal legacy until Dry Bar. And I also didn't like we were talking before, like I didn't plan on, you know, I didn't know any of this was going to happen. And what I ended up what we ended up doing was like, you know, creating this pathway for more female entrepreneurs. And, you know, and I think that I and what people were saying, I wasn't saying about myself, what people were saying about me was like, you know, you impacted and changed, you know, an already multibillion dollar business. And I, you know, I think I like I would like to be remembered for, you know, making an impact and being a really strong female leader, you know, who who wasn't afraid to go for it. I love it. That's awesome. Well, Ali, this was an incredible episode. And we really appreciate your time and being here with us today. So for everybody that's tuned in right now, we're going to plug your, you know, information down in the description, Ali Webb on social media. Anything else we should know about? We know that you've got an awesome company on the way that's, you know, out now, Messi. Just launched. Yeah. I don't know when this episode is going to launch. But yeah, our new product line Messi is it's at it's at it's Messi on Instagram and TikTok and exclusively in Sephora and all Sephora doors. So you can go get it. And that's, you know, that's my big project right now. Anything else exciting going on? Anything else you're working on? I'm working on a couple other things. Nothing quite ready to talk about, but I'm always working on something. It's that entrepreneurial brain. I love it. Guys, be sure to first of all, go follow Ali on all platforms to tap in with it's Messi and be sure to like and subscribe for amazing content. We've got coming every week, going around the world, interviewing the most successful business owners, just like Ali Webb. If you haven't done it yet, go down, click the link in the description to become a member of the number one community for business owners in the entire world today. The School of Mentors, where every week we give you guys direct access to live calls with the eight figure, nine figure and billionaire entrepreneurs that we interview every week on this channel. So we can't wait to see you on the inside. With that being said, we'll see you in the next episode.